“A Prevalent Money Cycle” In California
The Mercury News reports from California. “Luis Mapula and his wife weren’t looking to buy a home when Plata was approached at the San Jose Flea Market in April 2004, according to their lawsuit. Three months later, Mapula, whose take-home pay was $3,400 a month, and Luis Plata, a stay-at-home mother of two, bought a half-million dollar home on Burdick Way.”
“Mapula qualified for the loans through a stated-income process, his attorney said. Though Mapula signed the loan application, his lawsuit says he learned later that it falsely claimed he was making almost $100,000 a year from two jobs and receiving an additional $16,800 a year in rental income.”
“The application also said he had $19,700 in the bank, owned a $22,000 Acura and had $28,000 in furniture and personal property. Mapula said none of that was correct.”
“The payments on the loans were more than $3,500 a month, slightly more than Mapula’s after-tax pay. After two years, their primary loan for about $434,000 would become adjustable at six-month intervals. Today, they would be paying a total of $4,306 a month, according to a mortgage expert who reviewed the loans.”
“After a year of struggling with the payments, renting out rooms and borrowing from relatives, the couple in July 2005 sued. The case was settled last year. Vision Quest 21 took back the house and paid off the loans without admitting liability.”
“As the housing market cools, and loans made two years ago are starting to become adjustable, more people are coming forward. ‘I have stacks of cases,’ said Emilio Martinez, a Watsonville-area private investigator who has specialized in real estate cases for the past year.”
The North County Times. “‘There are two words,’ said Earl Bonawitz, who manages a real estate office in Temecula., ‘two scary words that can come out of a salesperson’s mouth: ‘trust me.’ That’s when red flags go up.’”
“Representatives of a Murrieta mortgage brokerage and a related investment company allegedly used that phrase copiously in 2004 and 2005 when investors raised questions about purchases of multiple properties, according to lawsuits filed by two dozen of the investors in January and February.”
“‘Mortgage loan fraud is growing because it can be very lucrative and relatively easy to perpetrate, particularly in geographic areas experiencing rapid appreciation,’ the report stated.”
“Between 2003 and 2006, that condition prevailed in California, and particularly in Riverside County. Local real estate professionals interviewed in recent months said the popularity of risky mortgages, fraud notwithstanding, are partly to blame for a recent wave of foreclosures.”
“Mortgage fraud is a particular problem that tends to show up in the months after the peak of a real estate cycle, late 2004, in the most recent cycle, Bonawitz said.”
“Buyers and sellers can help guard against mortgage fraud and other sorts of malfeasance by checking to see whether the house was appraised correctly, said Joseph Russo, a Murrieta-based appraiser.”
“A booming market and the promise of easy money drew hundreds of rookies into Southwest County’s real estate industry in 2003 and 2004, Russo and others in the industry have said in recent weeks. That’s a recipe for sloppy appraisals, Russo said.”
“One common rookie mistake, Russo said, is to rely on sales of comparable homes that aren’t in the same neighborhood. He recalled reviewing the work of one colleague who justified an appraisal based on a similarly sized home on the opposite side of Interstate 15. At a minimum, that can be a hint to a buyer or a lender that more investigation is needed, he said.”
The Star Net. “Maria Hynum said she’s one of nine church members, including the pastor, who invested in a company formerly known as Pacific Wealth Management of Murrieta, Calif., a firm that made its Tucson pitches at some of the city’s poshest hotels.”
“Hynum, an East Side grandmother who said she lost $393,000. Two of her relatives also lost tens of thousands of dollars each, she said. ‘They said they could help us, that it was based on faith and trust. They knew the vocabulary to use with Christian people,’ said Hynum.”
“Those involved say they’re now heavily in debt, some for as much as $400,000, for investment money they borrowed against their homes or credit cards to buy Iraqi dinars or California properties that now face foreclosure.”
“No criminal charges have been filed against anyone involved. Several agencies are investigating, including the FBI, the Air Force Office of Special Investigations and the Riverside County Attorney’s Office in California. At least four lawsuits have been filed by three California law firms.”
“One attorney says as many as 400 people from across Arizona were victimized, along with hundreds more in California, Arkansas, Puerto Rico, Texas, Oregon and Washington.”
“Collectively, their losses total hundreds of millions of dollars, and many face bankruptcy, ruined credit ratings and the loss of their homes, said the lawyer, Richard Ackerman of Temecula, Calif., who represents numerous California investors and recently met with dozens of Tucson investors.”
“Ackerman says Pacific Wealth in Murrieta had no assets of its own and was essentially a ‘ponzi scheme’ that could be kept afloat only as long as more new investors were persuaded to come aboard.”
“Pastor Randy Winkles said he was one of the 40 or so people at the recent meeting with Ackerman in Tucson. Winkles said he lost about $400,000 through remortgaging his home and that his house payment has jumped from $1,300 to $2,500 a month.”
“Noemi Barrios, a Tucson nurse, said she lost about $80,000 and her mortgage payments jumped from $734 to $1,800 a month. ‘Some of us feel kind of foolish now for believing, but these are not ignorant people who got involved with this. There’s a retired professor, a civic planner, military people, and a lawyer and a doctor,’ she said.”
“But with the company’s Christian pronouncements, no one thought to check up on the firm’s legitimacy, Barrios said.”
The Union Tribune. “In just a few short months, mortgage lenders who specialize in loans to borrowers with tarnished credit records have been in turmoil.”
“A report by the UBS investment firm last month found that the number of loans at least 60 days past due made to Alt A borrowers, those with stronger credit scores than subprime but not as good as top-tier prime borrowers, had doubled in the past 14 months.”
“‘It is a real problem,’ said Rob McNelis, president of One Stop Lending and Realty in Santee. ‘I have several people I’ve talked to in the past six months who for one reason or another were coming to their time to refinance and they probably are not going to be able to. They’re going to have to bite the bullet and pay that higher rate.’”
“McNelis added that some borrowers have failed to clean up their credit during the teaser rate period, or have taken on additional debt, making it harder to refinance. ‘They didn’t use the loan for what it was intended – as a Band-Aid to get them through a situation,’ he said. ‘And those are the people who are really being hit hard right now.’”
“Some lenders are cutting back on 100 percent financing programs for certain loans and boosting credit score requirements, said Michael Moorhouse, executive VP at WinStar Mortgage Partners, a midsize privately held originator of Alt A and prime mortgages.”
“‘What has really happened is they’ve looked at certain risk bands and found maybe 15 percent of their products are generating 50 to 70 percent of their delinquencies,’ Moorhouse said.”
“John Burroughs, a VP with American Mortgage Express in San Diego, noted that lenders are likely to work in inconspicuous ways to stiffen standards.”
“Instead of just looking at the credit score, they’re likely to take a closer look at appraisals. They’ll investigate more thoroughly whether a home is truly owner occupied. They’ll require borrowers to have more money in savings. They’ll look closely at whether the property is a single-family home or a condo.”
“‘There are all kinds of levels of adjustment that can come, in ever so subtle ways,’ Burroughs said. ‘I do think it’s going to be a little rough on the first-time buyer going into a 100 percent.’”
“‘What really happened within the industry is it got caught in what I call a prevalent money cycle, and its underwriting standards were relaxed,’ said John Robbins, chairman of the Mortgage Bankers Association and a longtime San Diego mortgage lender. ‘The credit decisions were truly being made by the borrower and not the lender.’”
I remember someone posted here long ago about the RE tables set up at California fleamarkets. Wow, what a mess.
I say good for these people. They were lied to by some real estate agent and some greedy seller. They sued and forced the RE company to take the house back.
The Mapula’s were stupid, but the RE company and the home seller committed fraud.
Mark my word, you are going to see a lot of lawsuits of this kind over the next three years. I’m waiting for the class action suits against RE/MAX, Century 21 and all the others, and I’m expecting home sellers represented by RE companies to be included in the actions.
I wish there was more information about this particular case.
You are right, there will be many such lawsuits. Let me go out on a limb here: the fraud and corruption associated with this monster bubble will completely destroy the REIC as we know it. I’d be very surprised if the MBA and the NAR survive this at all. Really I’m not going out on much of a limb. This used to be a decent industry that served the public interest, but now it just filled with scammers and con-men. Thanks Greenscam, you idiot.
“Thanks Greenscam, you idiot.”
Greenscam. Hadn’t heard that one before, but so fitting. Before he croaks, I hope that tool will be pointed out as the turn coat that he is, and that his “legacy” is what it should be: destruction of the American economy as we knew it to be. Greenscam, the MBA, and the NAR can all go to hell as far as I’m concerned. I’ve grown really tired of so-called representatives whose only purpose is to line the pockets of their “members.” I really hope you’re right Darth, that the REIC gets destroyed. While a necessary part of the overall market, it should not be so widespread and full of greed and corruption.
–
I don’t know who first use the term Greenscam, but I came up with it on my own in 1999. Other terms that I came up with:
Scam Options 1998
Worldcon 1999! (After a business visit on behalf of Cisco)
Bankrupters and Frausters of New York City (BFNYC) 2003
The FRAUD nature of American E-CON-omy has been Crystal Clear to me for at least 9 years. All the dumbwits will see the same in due course. Greenscam is but an agent of BFNYC.
Jas
You certainly didn’t come up with the term modesty.
LOL
Jas seems to skip his meds more often than he takes them.
Santa Clara Valley price history from what I seen
1997 TH 160-180K
2000 TH 500K
Today TH 850K
How … Fake muliple bidders, cheap money, fake stated income.
I remember reading of a book plagiarism lawsuit back in the ’60s of a young female author that wrote a childrens mystery book and she was sued by The Nancy Drew mysteries books. It turned out that she was a big reader of Nancy Drew as a 9 year old and even though she wasn’t intentionally plagiarizing - her subconscious remembered the details. I believe settled with an apology.
To “Greenscam” has been in use commonly since at least 1998
From Australia
http://tinyurl.com/9at7p
“Santa Clara Valley price history from what I seen
1997 TH 160-180K
2000 TH 500K
Today TH 850K”
That my friend is insanity and really symptomatic of the sick situation we are in.
My question is how does California even expect to attract young talent or new workers with these ridiculous prices? Is like Gary, Indiana the only option left for person just starting out?
–
“To “Greenscam” has been in use commonly since at least 1998 From Australia: http://tinyurl.com/9at7p”
Thanks. Certain names do lend themselves easily. That is why I did ask who came up with the term. Yes, more than one person has come with witrh some great discoveries almost simultaneously.
Jas
A lot of California looks much worse than Gary, Indiana, and that’s saying something.
lvreal_prop -
Equally good question is how do local employers expect to pay employees for over priced homes given their product is deflationary. My Laptop would cost 2K in now its only 500 at frys.
Equally good question is how do local employers expect to pay employees for over priced homes given their product is deflationary
The bulk of the Valley’s product is Software . . . and that has ~yummy~ production margins. As they say, the first CD costs $10-100 million, but the COGS of all the following copies are pennies.
Actually Im in Accounting for a Software company. Its not that straigth forward.
1. SW R&D is a long and costly process. Thus we have outsourcing to India and China.
2. SW Contracts are discounted very often from 10-25% off list price. You may actually see many software companies sell under 50% SW product and rest Services. I seen 50% discounts to just get the deal in. Oracle discounts is ERP products by huge margin.
3. Actuall in addition services are sold free. But what would have been revenue for services is carved out of SW product revenue and allocated back to services per Sop 97-2.
In addition COGS include all your service costs even if they did not do services. Its not just cost of CDs.
As such many SW companies are only 50% of actual SW product down from 80% in 1998-2000. This is why we had a Nasd meltdown in 2000-01.
I’d be very surprised if the MBA and the NAR survive this at all…This used to be a decent industry that served the public interest, but now it just filled with scammers and con-men.
Oh please. Spare us the revisionism. The MBA and NAR have always been guided by one operative principle: making money. It’s just in the last four years, due mainly to the explosion of easy credit, they’ve had unprecedented opportunity to indulge their greed and unscrupulousness to the fullest. But don’t kid yourself that they ever have been, or ever will be, a “decent” industry. How many realtors or loan originators have broken ranks with their respective organizations and openly warned of what many of them knew to be true: that the housing bubble was unsustainable and a lot of FBs were going to go down in flames. Very, very few.
I basically agree with you, Sammy, but do know of at least a few RE brokers/agents who would not allow a buyer to take on something they couldn’t afford.
I had finally managed to convince my mother (retired RE broker) in 2005 to sell her investment condo in LA (owned since the 70s). She kept turning down buyers because almost all of them were coming in with zero (or a few thousand) down and horrible FICO scores. I kept telling her that was how things were done these days, but she wouldn’t budge. She decided to rent it out, and sold it to her renters a short while later.
I know she’s not the only old-timer out there who doesn’t believe in setting someone up for foreclosure.
Decent agents/brokers do exist…it’s just like trying to find a needle in a haystack these days. As the crowd thins, the good ones will be left standing.
Got to disagree with you here Sammy. Prior to 1998, I knew many Realtors and loan agents that were very professional and the industry was considered a respectable one. You are the revisionist if you say otherwise. Hopefully deb or some of the other long-time agents can shed some more light on this.
Also your point about the industry indulging its greed is a circular argument. The easy credit and bubble blowoff profits attracted a certain type of slimy creature that largely didn’t exist prior to the bubble, and these creatures in turn caused more sliminess and corruption. Call them bubble chasers or whatever you wish, they’re not to dissimilar from the day traders circa 1999-2000. Prior to the bubble years, local real estate groups were self-policing in that members that acted unscrupulously were stripped of their memberships and often lost their license. Also, banks and credit unions were the money-keepers at the time and the barriers to entry in the mortgage finance field were much higher. The proliferation of illiterate and childish mortgage brokers like the kind you see on brokeruniverse were nonexistent.
You’re not thinking about this logically. All businesses exist to make money so this in and of itself isn’t evil. Hypothetically, take any respectable industry you can think of and inject it with virtually unlimited amounts of “free” money and watch what happens to that industry. It is destroyed from the inside in short order and that was my basic point. I view the NAR’s recent behavior (with the ads and propaganda) as a desperate attempt to hang on to the last vestiges of respectability, but this campaign will only backfire. They would have been better off calling it a bubble and working harder to weed out the idiots and raise the barriers to entry. I’m not sure this isn’t actually an indictment of the society at large.
The Mercury News has the same story as Contra Costa Times, but with a little different twist and info….
http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_5411822
Also, check the comments. There’s so many angles to this story it’s unreal.
They stuck a story of a poor mexian family. The story will fall short due to many (whites and asian) thinking “well that wont happen to me” I got a real job and all the rest.
The Mapulas were greedy and stupid and they also committed fraud. They signed the paperwork, did they not. They lied about their assets, their income, and they conspired with the lender. If their house had continued to appreciate, I guarantee these people would have understood the paperwork just fine. I can’t believe a judge let these greedy scumbags off the hook.
You have put that so well. I think that the realtor, the lender, and the Mapulas should all do jail time. This sounds like one big fraudulent activity.
There’s an indication that the documents were altered after he signed them. That’s why I wish there was more info on this case.
Uh, what part about “They can’t read english” don’t you understand ? What Part about they didn’t have the income to qualify for any loan for a home in San Jose and their information was falsfied on the Docs didn’t you understand ? Yes, a lot of lawbreaking went on here but it’s the scummy RE agent and the mortage companies that made it all possible and the fact the scummy agent had to buy the house back speaks volumes here.
You mean to tell me at $750K they couldnt find some rich engineer from Google. BAHAHAHAHHA !
> Uh, what part about “They can’t read english” don’t you understand ?
I just signed up for Mercury Insurance and they had me print out by hand on the contract that I read and understand English.
I thought it was a great idea.
They got off because of a technicality, IMO. But think what the MBS holders must be thinking right now, when they read about everyone standing around pointing the finger at everyone else. Is it any wonder they are heading for the hills. Someone said the other day that California events are becoming as crazy as Florida’s have been; I agree, the wheels are coming off the wagon.
Yup. And when you boil it down, in the current environment, the MBS investors are the only ones that count.
Apparently the MBS holders are happy at the moment, at least compared to a couple weeks ago, since they’re experiencing a dead-cat bounce back up into the 70s.
Let me second emcee,
The MBS investors are the only ones that count at the moment. Very little mortgage lending could occur without their participation. Whatever rules they start to make, the brokerages will have no choice but to respond. Yes, if the rules/rates get too restrictive other MBS buyers will jump in… but for now, its all tightening.
As to Happy… anything below 85 is deadly territory. In general, that deep of a discount was perceived as the floor. The fact that sales occurred below the floor indicates a dire need for cash flow.
If the wheels come off the California wagon… Its over. People just won’t know it. S&L crisis part II, “The pain of history repeated.”
Got popcorn?
Neil
The Mapulas were greedy and stupid and they also committed fraud.
The undisputed truth, Spike66, but also irrelevant. Why? Wait until the lawsuits and trials really get going - who do you think is going to have the benefit of a “jury of their peers”: the Mapulas or the brains of the operation, the Suits who stage-managed the con-job? While it’s clear the Mapula’s were witting participants in the fraud, their “peers” will see them as pawns and victims, and will be all too happy to render “Justice” and stick it to The Man at the same time. The more far-sighted MBA and NAR sharks are going to have a lot of sleepless nights once they realize the “contracts” that they thought shielded them from their misdeeds, can be nullifed by vengeful juries. The larger implications are going to be HUGE.
While many borrowers were absolute fools, and some knowingly committed fraud, can we not agree that the lenders (and all that entails) deal with loans on a daily basis, and know the ins and outs of all the documents and understand the terms of the loans they are putting people into?
Can we also agree that most buyers might see, perhaps, 1 to 5 mortgage contracts **in their lifetime**, and that those contracts (and the way lending is done) change often over the years. Also, the contracts contain a lot of legalese, designed specifically to confuse the borrower — AND that many have had the experience at the closing table (or with notary) where they are rushed through the signing, with everyone assuring them that, “you don’t need to read everything, these are just standard documents. You get to keep a copy and can read it later, at your leisure.” (heard that myself!!!)
Sorry, while I don’t want the FBs bailed out (they should be foreclosed on), I don’t think the average FB intended to commit fraud. OTOH, the lenders intentionally engaged in fraudulent or unethical activities, and should lose every penny. Lawsuits should be filed against every executive of every company (brokers, banks, ratings agencies, financial firms, etc.) that enabled “suicide” financing — and all personal property should be sold to try to remedy the fallout that results from their actions).
I’d rather see these top-level cretins slave away for the rest of their lives — only allowed very basic living quarters (one or two bedroom apts for a family) and one old car — to help pay for the damage they created.
You should read the full article, way too much to post.
maybe that will get the bozos out of the ranks
“The Mapula’s were stupid, but the RE company and the home seller committed fraud”
I may be reading this wrong, but the home seller is selling at the best price they can get. They usually have no contact at all with the buyer and is in thier best interest not to. It is in no way the home sellers (or seller of any product) fault if some FB wants to pay too much or can’t afford whats on the plate but takes it anyway. The FB needs to learn to say NO. Should I have said “I know you are willing to payit and have the loan ready, but I think I am asking too much for the house so here is a couple 100,000 back.” Not a chance, I say FU to the FB. In the end the FB may be able to sell it for more and I would not be getting any of that.
The lenders, RE, and FB’s should be on the hook for this mess. The have every resource to check the FB’s up down and sideways and choose not to. The lenders and especially the brokers should be put in jail for this mess. They were paid to do their jobs and they did not. If this were the old west we could hang them all. Props to China for holding CON artist accountable. If death was the consequence we would be rid of these liar snake oil ponzi scheming do nothing for society a$$holes including the biggest shisters stealing 401k money in wall street.
The home seller has a contractual agreement with the realtor stating that the realtor has the authority to show and represent the property on the seller’s behalf. The seller even gives the realtor the keys to the house for that purpose.
If a realtor, representing a seller, commits a fraud which causes damage to a buyer, the seller is liable BECAUSE THE SELLER SIGNED A CONTRACT WITH THE REALTOR GIVING THE REALTOR LEGAL POWER TO ACT ON THE SELLER’S BEHALF.
“If a realtor, representing a seller, commits a fraud which causes damage to a buyer, the seller is liable BECAUSE THE SELLER SIGNED A CONTRACT WITH THE REALTOR GIVING THE REALTOR LEGAL POWER TO ACT ON THE SELLER’S BEHALF. ”
That makes since.
I have heard of realtors getting sued because of material defects undisclosed, but known, but not for over pricing a house. Just seems strange that the seller would be involved if overpriced is the issue.
Time will tell. I believe in the coming years fraud or misrepresentation as to market value and market conditions (i.e property appreciation) will be considered actionable by California courts, for both realtors and the sellers they represented.
Here, though, the fraud wasn’t by the seller (or the seller’s agent) against the buyer. The fraud was either (1) by the buyer’s agent against the buyer, by inducing him to sign a contract by leading him to believe its terms were other than they were, or (2) the buyer against the lender.
Even if the same Realtor were acting as both the seller’s and the buyer’s broker in this case, the specific fraud in question — allegedly misrepresenting the terms of the finance contract — would have been done in the agent’s capacity as agent for the buyer, not as the agent for the seller. The seller looks clean in all of this.
“but the home seller is selling at the best price they can get. They usually have no contact at all with the buyer and is in thier best interest not to.”
You walk into any SF Bay Area realtor office and you will find them telling you that you will need to overbid. Nevermind sales have fallen and prices are down over past year in the zip your looking at. Its the same party line they deal out. If you do make an offer they will say something like … “there are 5 other offers, will go higher”. Its all fake and unconfirmable bids to pressure buyer into increasing their offer. I saw this first hand last year on 3 homes and walked away. The homes did not sell for months. So where were these other offers aside from mine? What gives?
Thomas,
Read the text of the complete article. There is a very clear indication that the seller’s agent either altered the documents or presented documents to the buyer that the agent knew the buyer did not understand. Also, there is no indication that the buyer had his own agent.
At this point the article does not contain enough info to really ascertain what transpired.
With that being said, IF the agent in question only represented the seller then the seller is liable for any damage the agent does to the buyer. Remember, the seller signed a contract with the agent giving the agent legal authority to act on the seller’s behalf. If the agent says something or shows something to the buyer it is legally as if the seller is showing or telling the buyer something, as far as civil liability is concerned.
“Time will tell. I believe in the coming years fraud or misrepresentation as to market value and market conditions (i.e property appreciation) will be considered actionable by California courts, for both realtors and the sellers they represented. ”
Are you kidding me?
“Time will tell. I believe in the coming years fraud or misrepresentation as to market value and market conditions (i.e property appreciation) will be considered actionable by California courts, for both realtors and the sellers they represented. ”
Are you kidding me?
I don’t think you can sue a seller for fraud or misrepresentation just because a buyer paid top dollar for a property . The lender,appraiser, and underwriter for the bank is suppose to check for a valid appraisal . Now if a seller engages in fraud to inflate the sales price and gives a kickback to the buyer or to themself, that is not disclosed to the lender in the purchase transaction ,than the seller engaged in the fraud with the realtors and mortgage people ,buyer, etc. If a seller give kickbacks that are not disclosed to the lender/appraiser than the seller is quilty of misrepresentation to the lender .
All sellers try to get as much money as the market will bear and that fact in itself is not fraud . The fraud starts when a seller inflates a price and gives a non-disclosed kickback based on the purchase price being inflated for the purpose of giving a kickback of cash or something else.
I have been wondering for a long time if the people who gave cars away or big concessions disclosed it to the lender . If a broker raises the commission to 20% and gives a kick-back of 15% to the buyer while they inflate the appraisal that’s another way of playing with the money .
Let me just say that in past lending cycles if a buyer overpaid for a property that buyer would have to put more money down to get the loan or go back to the seller and ask for a reduction in price .
Any seller that agrees to give money from the transaction to another party on the side without the lender knowing knows damn well its fraud .
Also if a seller misrepresent a material fact about the property this could be misrepresentation or fraud . One has to wonder about all the hype to sell property in recent years ,which builders and members of the REIC crossed the line into misrepresentation .
Agreed, wizard. No misrepresentation and no non-disclosed kickbacks and the seller is home free.
Home sellers are committing fraud when they or their agent tell a buyer that real estate prices always go up and the overinflated house they are selling will always appreciate.
It’s funny how some people on this blog feel it’s OK for a seller to lie about their house, but the same people slam realtors for telling the same lie.
Here’s the bottom line: If a seller or their agent misrepresent ANY material fact about the property to a buyer they are committing fraud and are liable for the damage the fraud causes the buyer. Property appreciation, when used by the seller and/or the agent as a selling point, becomes a material fact.
This point will be tested in California courts in the years to come, and there are going to be a lot of shocked sellers who are going to find themselves on the hook for the lies they told in order to sell their house.
Clearview –
I read the article. The FBs are claiming that the fraud, or whatever, was in their mortgage documents — not the purchase contract. The mortgage is a contract between the borrower and the lender; the seller isn’t involved.
I couldn’t tell from the article whether the seller’s real estate broker also functioned as the borrower’s mortgage broker. That would be unusual — but even if that’s how things happened, if the broker monkeyed with the mortgage documents, that was done in his capacity as the borrower’s agent. He was wearing his “borrower’s agent” hat at that time, in other words. His agency with the seller wasn’t involved with the mortgage transaction. As a result, if he committed fraud in connection with that transaction, the fraud was outside the scope of his agency with the seller, and the seller has no liability.
Now, if there had been fraud in the purchase and sale agreement for the property itself (as opposed to the mortgage documents), then the seller could definitely be held liable for the acts of his agent.
OK, I see your point. We both agree, however, on two things. One, we don’t have all the facts on this story, so we are guessing on some issues. Two, a seller can be held liable for the actions of his agent.
There are a lot of commenters on this site that cannot believe that a seller can be held liable for misrepresentations made by their agent. Many people are going to be in for a rude surprise.
Ben,
You are living history pal. One day, your blog is going to make it to the Smithsonian.
how is it bank fraud if the person taking the loan is signing the papers? so if someone signs papers that means that its not their fault for reading over and understanding what they are signing? i dont think thats a good idea to let people get away with that.
“how is it bank fraud if the person taking the loan is signing the papers?”
READ THE ARTICLE> Please people, before you post.
From the article:
“California’s civil code requires loans negotiated in Spanish to be completed with Spanish-language disclosure statements or a full Spanish translation”
The mortgage companies did NOT do this. They were thus in error under the law. Thus, the contract is non-enforceable.
According to your logic, if you have a retarded person sign a contract then it’s enforceable.
These mortgage companies are FILLED with fraud. I mean, c’mon. They package up option ARMs to non-english speaking people at 10x their income. Uh… if it’s not fraudulent then it’s criminally stupid.
While there was clearly negligence on the part of the mortgage company, it is interesting that “no speaka da English” rears it head when the free money well ran dry.
The real treat will be 2 years from now, when you’re closing in on the sweet RE deal you have been waiting for, and discover you were outbid ……once again by the Mapulas.
(who, by the way, won’t understand some term of that deal as well, unless of course there is ballistic appreciation of the property, and terms which allow extractable cash. Everyone understood “flip that house” over the last several years, in any language….)
Give this man/woman the prize money
kinda what I was thinking as well
“These mortgage companies are FILLED with fraud”
Dont forget the fake bids of 10-15% above asking on each go around day in day out. Fraud in mortgage is only the second step after fake offers are make to pump up buyers bids are made. Take away the fake bids and mortgages become realistic.
Does the civil code provide the same for other languages, or only Spanish?
That’s always my question with this language stuff.
Must suck to be first generation Cambodian, Lithuanian, Portuguese, Thai, ETC. ETC. ETC.
That’s always my question with this language stuff.
Must suck to be first generation Cambodian, Lithuanian, Portuguese, Thai, ETC. ETC. ETC.
If we steal your land, then 100 years later we promise to print material in your native language to show we care….
200 years later, we let you build casino’s.
(this timeline might not be quite historically accurate).
It’s both.
60,000 new multimillionaire investors at Los Angeles Convention to watch Donald Trump live on Real estate investing. Lots of money still looking at Costa Rica, Alabama, Louisiana, Texas, Pre construction condos. Crass is greener outside of LA. Still lots of equity locusts. Unbieveable. 600 people in a breakout seesion, 10% signed up for 3 training training and books with some “dude” at $2000. Thats 60 out of 600. The $2000 is down from $5000 at least years expo. I guess lower prices have hit the “guru” curcuit. PT Barnum “sucker born” is a live and well.
Good for them!
Greedy and stupid people should be parted from their money as quickly as possible.
LOUISIANA condos?!? You’ve got to be sh*ttin me. People here can’t spell condo, much less buy one. That’s great if they want to buy and hold and hold and hold and hold…cuz there’s no resale market. Now, speculating in house trailers might be a winner…..
The Orange County Fairgounds Swapmeet has had them for the last 20 years or more. (Costa Mesa)
Between convicted Federal Felons for Mortgage Brokers straw Buyers everywhere , this isn’t a RE Market, It’s a FRAUD Market !
Puller and Ingram are among seven defendants accused of taking $2.1 million out of 17 phony home sales, mostly in the Villas at Cherry Creek, a gated community bordering Cherry Creek State Park.
The scheme began with Ronald Fontenot and Torrence James, who met in federal prison and became mortgage brokers once released. Puller and Ingram were among their dupes paid to pose as buyers and sign bogus documents.
http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_5404197
“‘There are two words,’ said Earl Bonawitz, who manages a real estate office in Temecula., ‘two scary words that can come out of a salesperson’s mouth: ‘trust me.’ That’s when red flags go up.’”
This statement you can live by. Any LO ever tells you this, just get up and walk out. He/she should convince you with the facts that you’re doing the right thing, and if he/she can’t, then they should have no problem if you request to take the information home and think about it some more, perhaps run it by a friend or two. But if you ever hear the old “trust me”, there is your cue to find another broker.
Old joke:
Language lesson. How do you say “F*&k You” in New York City? “Trust Me.”
English tourist in New York asks local “Would you be so kind as to give me directions to the Empire State Building, or should I just go f**k myself?”
I had an English tourist woman ask me where Grand Central Station was one day. I pointed it out and said, “two blocks that way.” We were on the corner of 42nd and 3rd. She asked if it was even worth her time to go see it.
I chuckled. I told her, “Grand Central might be the coolest building in New York City. It is beautiful.” She was shocked. She said she had asked a cab driver to take her there. He had told her it wasn’t worth seeing. I told her the guy must be an idiot. Anybody that has been in Grand Central knows how awesome that building is.
The key to successful visits to New York is to know who to ask questions or at least get lucky. Never ask one of the cab drivers anything. They are a sub-species.
Ah, NYCityBoy, Grand Central truly is an awesome building. Even SNL displays a mock-up of the icon clock in its opening shot. I was born in mid-town Manhattan, but the family moved to Westchester for the suburban life. Anyone who had parents who worked in “The City”, as we called it, got to know Grand Central pretty well through excursions to to Manhattan. Nothing like it in the world. Thanks for the memory.
Grand Central ? it’s nice, but it’s no Palmdale Galleria
‘two scary words that can come out of a salesperson’s mouth: ‘trust me.’
Those same words came out of Jimmy Carter’s mouth, and we suffered from the same malaise that America now suffers under another Bible thumper from the south.
At least Carter had integrity.
Thanks for that. You made my day.
Wyoming’s not considered part of the South.
i was thinking maybe 100% is not enough they could make it 300% so that people could pay for 5 years or so live rent free buy all the crap they can, go to school and afterwards pay it back… also they need to include hummer vouchers with the loan.
I agree. And in the interest of promoting affordable housing, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac should buy the paper on which the 300% loans are written. That would be fair to people who cannot afford to buy a home in markets where all homes cost over $500K, like San Diego.
cyppok,
They were already doing this with the 125% LTV mortgages. Pays for the house, closing costs and you can spend the rest “fixing up” the place (or buy a Hummer, if you’d like).
I anxiously await the 20% down (or more!) days which should be coming, if all goes well.
I’m with you CArenter. **Very** anxious for the return of 20% downpayments. And if they went higher, I’d be jumping for joy.
The lenders going to 5% DP’s seems ridiculously low. Hopefully by next week it’ll be up to 10% and then just keep rising.
In an ideal world- I can dream, can’t I?- we’d all be paying cash for houses, at least for a few blissful years.
I fear you’ll get your wish, and those words will choke your throat.
They only paid cash in ‘32.
If we all paid cash for consumption items (which a house is…), things would be much more affordable for those who live within their means.
Credit should only be used to finance business or during a time of emergency, IMHO. Othewise, it just raises cost inflation with no guarantee of wage inflation, and transfers money from the poor to the wealthy.
Again, I repeat: They only paid cash in ‘32.
How’d that work out for the country? For your grandpa?
Mine had a pretty bad time of it.
“earning $54,000 a year as a fence company construction worker. Then, almost like magic, he became the owner of a $543,000 home with no down payment.”
http://origin.mercurynews.com/news/ci_5411822
Is this a typical wage for non-english speaking construction workers who have only been in the country for six years? I’m having trouble believing even this “stated” income let alone the fake $116K/yr income that was put on the mortgage application.
I just read through this whole piece linked from mercurynews.
If this is as widespread as it looks, there are going to be a lot of ass-poundings to come for the boiler-room mortgage shysters. What a mess!
“If this is as widespread as it looks, there are going to be a lot of ass-poundings to come for the boiler-room mortgage shysters. What a mess!”
The mortgage industry is went from one of reasonable integrity, to a cesspool of lying, cheating, and thievery. It’s still going on right now. I just pulled up some comps in the area I grew up, and houses have sold for well above peak prices as recently as January. I have no doubt that many are outright fraud, likely using straw buyers, with cash back after closing deals. Until the banks start looking at each deal before funding it, this will go on. Are they now verifying income, and work history? These mortgage brokers are just doctoring up the documents to make everything look fine and dandy. They will continue until the well runs dry, then they will retire out of the country. The proper authorities need to redouble their efforts RIGHT NOW. Things are really out of control. I find it sickening that it is talked about so openly here for years, yet nothing has been done to stop it.
Was all fired up and didn’t even proof read. What an ugly post!
The straw buyer surge will be short-lived IMO. Oh the intent to fraud will be there, no doubt, but the warehouse lenders are catching on very quickly, as evidenced by the current shift in lending standards.
I just saw one of those straw buyer signs in 75024 plano texas. First one I have seen out here.
Also have seen the same 2 houses for sale or lease since september 2006 at Ohio and Thanksgiving.
4689 thanksgiving plano, tx 75024 and the house across the street (4688) if someone has access to information.
Both had signs in sept, one lease to own, the other was foreclosure. Both signs came down within a month then a month of work went into both.(looked like foundation work) Then both went back on market. One sign came down quick and looked sold but today I see a lease sign on it. So both still have signs 6 months later.
My question is, can these idiots be selling to each other just to sell to some other idiot, or is it the same idiot owners still trying? Taxes alone in that area make it a joke if trying to rent so I don’t get it? Does anybody buy a house to live in anymore?
Even with 54K a year you’d have a hard time making ends meet in San Jose which is why they were living in a converted garage in the 1st place and shopping at the flea market for groceries just like most latin american immigrants in this area
Yes I know a few who make 100K and cant afford either under fix 30 year.
Im talking engineers, lawyers and accountants. They save more than half on mortgage when due to low rent.
For anyone who doubts that the government had a big hand in the housing bubble, read this excerpt from MarketWatch:
http://tinyurl.com/qp79k
But the company has been investing more in subprime MBS in recent years. Subprime loans are sold to home buyers who fail to meet the strictest lending standards, so this area of the mortgage market is expected to be hit harder by any housing downturn.
Fannie and Freddie bought 25.2% of the record $272.81 billion in subprime MBS sold in the first half of 2006, according to Inside Mortgage Finance Publications, a Bethesda, Md.-based publisher that covers the home loan industry.
In 2005, Fannie and Freddie purchased 35.3% of all subprime MBS, the publication estimated. The year before, the two purchased almost 44% of all subprime MBS sold.
Three big lenders, NovaStar Financial, Deutsche Bank and BNC Mortgage, part of Lehman Brothers , sold more than half of their subprime MBS to Fannie and Freddie this year, said Andrew Analore, editor at Inside Mortgage Finance.
Ofheo, Fannie’s regulator, has noticed that the company has increased its subprime exposure.
“They’ve expanded in that area in recent years, but it’s still not an enormous part of their business,” Andrew Lawler, chief economist at Ofheo, said. “It’s an area we’re increasingly looking at because they’re increasingly involved in it.”
An Ofheo report due out later this year is expected to show Fannie’s subprime exposure is “generally moving up,” he added.
There are still bubble bloggers out there in angry denial about the fact that the GSE’s are involved in subprime loans. I don’t know why - maybe they work for Fannie Mae. Add this up with the Fed lowering the rates to 1%, lack of government regulation and oversight and you end up with this mess.
There is no doubt that the government not only failed to enforce the laws at the local, state and federal levels, but they helped inflate this bubble. Fannie Mae was also the bagholder for the homes bought by the homeless guy in Tampa. BTW - Why hasn’t anybody from Fannie Mae been charged with crimes following the $10 billion accounting scam? Executives walked away with tens of millions due to inflate bonuses from fraudulent income statements.
I am not one of those angry lunatic Republican or Democrat bots who blames everything bad in the world on the other side, but an independent who wants the government to stop propping up this housing bubble thru subsidies with my tax dollars.
“I am not one of those angry lunatic Republican or Democrat bots who blames everything bad in the world on the other side, but an independent who wants the government to stop propping up this housing bubble thru subsidies with my tax dollars.”
What he said. Thanks for the link.
AMEN! Testify, Brothah!
Why hasn’t anybody from Fannie Mae been charged with crimes following the $10 billion accounting scam? Executives walked away with tens of millions due to inflate bonuses from fraudulent income statements.
Just wait. They will. When everything comes crashing down, there will be indictments.
Just like Ken Lay and Skilling. It took YEARS before they were indicted.
And even when they were, one of them got to die his way out of his punishment. Hopefully, he didn’t collect $200 on his way to hell.
The criminals in the Bush DOJ already said nobody will be charged. It looks like the good ole boy system or a few greased palms
I sure hope you are right about this. I believe when the dust settles, it will be clear that Fan and Fred were the main drivers behind the subprime debacle.
Guess I’m one of the bloggers whose in “angry denial”.
(not really angry or denying culpability of F&F)
Although F&F certainly had a lot to do with the beginning of the bubble, after their problems were discovered in 2003 and 2004, they did pare back on their activities (as evidenced by the numbers, above). Many of us expected things to fall apart in late 2004 when the accounting “irregularities” (billions of dollars) popped up.
To the amazement of many (especially me), this monster kept chugging along. Seems Wall Street, FCBs and various kinds of “funds” took up where F&F left off.
I’ve said it before, though…I fully believe this credit/housing bubble was intentionally created by the govt and financial firms in order to stave off the recession we didn’t experience in 2000/2001+. It also didn’t hurt their real purpose of shifting money from the poor/working classes to the wealthy.
After watching how the economy has been operating the past decade or so, I’m totally convinced the govt and WS exist for only one reason — to create a disparate society with a handful of wealthy (and all the laws/regulations/tax schemes to keep them wealthy) and the masses of poor who serve them.
Welcome to Mexico…it’s no wonder they’re not doing anything about immigration (although this is one issue most U.S. citizens agree we need to fix, whether Republican or Democrat — shows who our “representatives” are really working for).
ack! who’s, not whose
Pretty good manifesto CA renter.
(although I don’t know if I should compliment someone “who’s” initials are CAR!)
Yes someone will have to give up the proverbial pound of flesh.
And there you have your gobmint bailout. Just sell your MBS to the gobmints two sub-prime hacksters.
Got 10% down?
HUD is helping fraudsters make money off the housing ponzi scheme with taxpayer money
http://tinyurl.com/y5tnff
Tuff luck for lenders? Not as much as you’d think. The mortgages were insured by the Federal Housing Administration (FHA), a sub agency of the U.S. Department Of Housing and Urban Development (HUD). Taxpayers picked up the bad. Expect them to pick up more. D.A. Scott Storey believes thousands of other properties were obtained by the same ring and that similar frauds are widespread in the Denver area. And in an August 24th Denver Post article, “FHA program key in surge of foreclosures,” a government source estimated that “20,000 illegal immigrants hold FHA mortgages in metro Denver alone.”
Many of the frauds perpetrated by the Jefferson County ring were powered by an FHA lending assistance arrangement under the HUD category Downpayment Assistance through Secondary Financing Providers. Aka DAP. This particular DAP arrangement is commonly called the FHA gift program and is meant to benefit low income, first time home buyers. Mortgages insured by the FHA require 3% down payment. In the past, only family and friends were allowed to provide down payment assistance. But in 1998, the FHA started letting sellers contribute down payments via group funds administered by charitable, non-profit organizations. Eight years later, even HUD acknowledges such organizations are frequently for-profit fronts. Plus, sellers raise the price of properties to cover down payment contributions. Closing costs and FHA insurance premiums are also rolled into the loans. Ultimately, gift program mortgages, granted in the name of affordable housing, wind up costing buyers more than the property is really worth.
“‘The credit decisions were truly being made by the borrower and not the lender.’”
Great. Are they telling us the “greedy masses” decided what they could afford? Not the banks?
Once the banks get stuck with these rotten loans on their books, I’m guessing they’ll start to care again what people can actually afford.
Yep…
A bit of fiscal Darwinism is about to happen. The implode-o-meter is a hungry beast!
Got popcorn?
Neil
I’m out of lurking mode to say kudos to Ben for being ahead of the curve every step of the way. I’ve kept up with the blog posts, but not the comments as my time is limited, so I apologize in advance if I’m covering old territory, but I want to suggest a theory to the board and get reactions.
It seems to me that the credit rating agencies largely hold the key to the whole hedge fund/credit bubble coming down like a house of cards. I’ve read that holders (insurance companies, pension funds, hedge funds) of mortgages/cdo’s/etc. don’t have to take a write down on their assets until they are downgraded by the rating agencies. The rating agencies are loathe to downgrade because that hits their bottom line as they make money from the volume of issues to be rated. Plus, a la the S & L crisis and legislation around 1990 that made them sell junk bonds into a declining market there is the danger of that which they don’t want to be responsible for.
In addition to that, hedge funds have a lot of room for creativity (fraud?) in valuing all of the esoteric securities they hold. If they have overly optimistic assumptions built into their valuation models who’s to say they have to take a loss? And with little or no oversight or regulation how is this discovered unless they can’t meet their redemptions (and if they can’t meet their redemptions they just lock the money up longer or put it in a side pocket). So, in effect, the only thing stopping hedgies from fudging the numbers to line their pockets is their strong sense of ethics (right).
Is this not where the real frauds are likely taking place?
“In addition to that, hedge funds have a lot of room for creativity (fraud?) in valuing all of the esoteric securities they hold.”
They also make buckets of money on oversized commissions. There is massive moral hazard to pursue investments which produce high near-term returns in exchange for increased risk of future blow-up; doing so makes it much easier to sucker in the 401(K) and other institutional investors, who are also known as “future bagholders.”
It is apparent that fraud is taking place at every level: buyer, RE agent, mortgage broker, criminals hired to falsely verify employment/income, lender, banks, fund managers, and the regulators. Today’s New York Times article summarizes what you are talking about. Wow - this will dwarf the S&L scandal.
The problem is all this uncovered fraud is not restating all the
sales / price history that is published by the NAR and media.
Some may recall when the dot.com companies started to go bust (some from fraud) like Ariba. They and many others had to restate their financials for several years.
It is certain now that the 750K in this article was not realistic to begin with.
“They’ll look closely at whether the property is a single-family home or a condo.”
Oh man, they’re really serious about this.
Remember…. you can’t spell “CONDO” without “CON”
Remember…. you can’t spell “CONDO” without “CON”
I like the word, Condope, better. it’s not an oxymoron.
“They knew the vocabulary to use with Christian people,’ said Hynum.”
That is perfect. The key with anybody that thinks they are so Christian is to use religious terms to allow them to justify their greed. “God would want you to have the good life that a strong investment would bring.”
I have been around way too many fundamentalist Christians in my day. I wouldn’t trust any of them with even a single penny of mine. They were amongst the most hypocritical (hypoChristians), greedy and bigoted people I’ve ever met. They all acted like praising Jesus gave them a free pass to screw over anybody and everybody.
Your religion is like your wang. Keep it to yourself unless you are specifically asked to bring it out.
Greed and religion are a potent combination. Apparently Pacific Wealth Management was pretty keen in their knowledge on how to manipulate it. They had these fools buying Iraqi dinars? LMAO
Fundamentalist Christians buying Iraqi Dinars? Can you say Biblical Proportions? Or would you like to buy some condos in the Green Zone? George W promises there will be electricity surging soon.
Your religion is like your wang. Keep it to yourself unless you are specifically asked to bring it out.
LOL! I’m going to have to remember that one in case someone tries to proselytize me in the future. Or maybe I’ll just assume that they want to play “you show me yours, I’ll show you mine” and I’ll let them look at my personal Jesus.
yes,
That is a classic! Well done NYC!
NYCityBoy - rent the documentary Jesus Camp.
Far too many so-called Christian ministers - most of them, I suspect - know what their aptly-named “flock” wants to hear, and it ain’t about “sacrifice” or “obedience to the will of the Almighty” or “do the right thing even when it costs you.” No, today’s pew zombies and their pulpit prostitutes want to “feel good” and believe God wants nothing more than to shower them with blessings, of the material sort, of course, as their reward for being so darn white and middle class [the true Chosen, not those Sinai-wanderers]. I’m guessing this minister and his congregant-”investors” are the sort that Jesus drove from the temple with his whip.
I am going to pray that God sends all those raptured bees to seek out and sting greedy fools like this.
“Ask not what your god(s) can do for you . . . ask what you can do for your god(s)!”
Too many people hide behind religion.
“Yeah, I defrauded some of my parishioners and had sex with another man, but I am a man of God.”
One of my co-workers down in Dallas used to tell me how Ken Lay was such a great Christian (they belonged to the same church at some point) and how charitable he was.
What my co-worker didn’t get was that psychologically (or sub-consciously) this justified all the fraud Lay was responsible for.
I have a relative in the commercial real estate business who is seriously Christian in a good-works, keep-it-to-yourself kind of way. Yet whenever he is doing business with someone who starts grandstanding about their religion (”Let’s pray together before we sign the papers”, etc.), his antennae go straight to alert since he’s been burned by this type too many times.
Some people seem to feel that Jeebus has blessed them forever, so they are entitled to do whatever they want and feel no guilt about it.
What kind of “My kingdom is not of this world” don’t these people understand?
“But I don’t even believe in Jebus!”
CLASSIC line.
They were amongst the most hypocritical (hypoChristians), greedy and bigoted people I’ve ever met. They all acted like praising Jesus gave them a free pass to screw over anybody and everybody.
Your religion is like your wang. Keep it to yourself unless you are specifically asked to bring it out.
———————————
AMEN!!!
NYCB: That is perfect. The key with anybody that thinks they are so Christian is to use religious terms to allow them to justify their greed. “God would want you to have the good life that a strong investment would bring.”
I have been around way too many fundamentalist Christians in my day. I wouldn’t trust any of them with even a single penny of mine. They were amongst the most hypocritical (hypoChristians), greedy and bigoted people I’ve ever met. They all acted like praising Jesus gave them a free pass to screw over anybody and everybody.
Your religion is like your wang. Keep it to yourself unless you are specifically asked to bring it out.
Greed and religion are a potent combination. Apparently Pacific Wealth Management was pretty keen in their knowledge on how to manipulate it. They had these fools buying Iraqi dinars? LMAO
I think there is a larger lesson here, and it’s not that Christians are morons. The reality is that fraudsters will prey on people based on what they want to hear. To a leftist, they will sprinkle their conversations with references to Bush being a moron, and how this country has gone to the dogs since Bush’s coronation in 2001. To a rightist, they will talk about how Bush is under-appreciated and misunderstood, and that it is amazing how under his enlightened leadership, no large scale terrorist attack has occurred on American soil since 9/11. Mexican fraudsters will prey on Mexicans. Jewish fraudsters will prey on Jews. (Heck, a woman who doesn’t look Jewish will claim her grandfather was Jewish). The real lesson here is that you need to be alert for salespeople who seem really in synch with your personal beliefs, and then try to sell you financial products that seem too good to be true.
By the way, the Iraqi dinar was at $.00027 to the dollar in October 2003. It is now at $.0008. If you bought $1000 worth of it in 2003, you now have just under $3000 worth. I think it was a reasonable bet in 2003, given that (1) Uncle Sam was set to spend hundreds of billions stabilizing Iraq and (2) the historical reality is that most insurgencies are defeated*. In fact, I think it’s a reasonable bet today, since an American withdrawal should lead to a relatively quick peace, after the Sunni Arab presence is erased from Iraq by the Shiite government. Genocide isn’t pretty, but it’s pretty final, as the Carthaginians learned after they were defeated on home ground by the Romans, and either killed or sold into slavery.
* This includes Vietnam, where North Vietnam had to send a 20-division strong regular army equipped with MiG’s, tanks and artillery to topple the South Vietnamese government. And this conventional war occurred in a context where Uncle Sam had cut off supplies to South Vietnam while China and the Soviet Union continued supplying North Vietnam.
The VC weren’t defeated, they were just RESTING!
The story of 1970-1975 deserves more than a paragraph, pal. I agree that Phoenix and “Land To the Tiller” (look it up) did tons of good in eradicating and de-legitmizing the VC in the south, but I don’t think any Saigon-based junta had any chance in maintaining power against the commie nationalists in Hanoi.
It is largely true that Congress largely closed the line of credit that was supporting the Saigon regime in 1974-75. In my view, any regime that is SOLELY reliant on MY TAXES for its survival can pound sand.
I would have preferred an outcome similar to NK/SK for Vietnam, but the cultural histories — and more importantly, military geographies — were just too different to accomplish this at any sort of reasonable cost. ARVN had plenty of rifles in 1975, the problem was they dropped them in their mad dash to the boats in 1975.
NYCityboy, don’t badmouth Christ just because people are greedy. You are mixing two issues.
Also, I hope that those engaged in mortgage fraud are criminally prosecuted. It is time the fed beefed up enforcement and put these people behind bars, including the mortgage company owners.
I don’t see anything in my post that badmouthed Christ. I badmouthed Christians. And I will unapologetically stand by those statements.
There are some good Christians but I don’t trust zealots of any faith or people that use their faith to justify questionable activities.
I think NYCB called out the zealot christians for what they are: greedy christians, which shows that greed comes in every color, religion and size.
“Pastor Randy Winkles said he was one of the 40 or so people at the recent meeting with Ackerman in Tucson. Winkles said he lost about $400,000 …”
This pastor is another greedy FB. How convenient for him to forget Jesus’ teachings: “do unto others…” I bet he selectively forgot this when he piled onto the bandwagon.
IMO that’s why a bust is such a great equalizer: it spareth no greedy persons…
If you would not bad mouth Chirst, then you would not bad mouth true Christians. If there was true reason for you to bad mouth these persons, then they were most likely not true Christians. Too many people out there take the name of Christ in vain.
Gary,
Was Christ like, your friend, or something? You take personally that which you should not. Your god (not capital, you see) and your religion attempt to claim exclusive knowledge of truth.
You are not alone in this folly.
The same goes for those slimeball Jews, sleazy Muslims and crackpot Hindus, pagans and Buddhists
Am I right or what?
Is that really neccesary?
Since we’re here bashing Christians, why not bash all the religions? You know, we shouldn’t discriminate in our bigotry.
I was being sarcastic
the problem with many populist strains of Christianity is that they teach that forces in the Spirit World are looking out for us (Guardian Angels, Personal Saviors, and all that stuff).
This is a very potent message for weak-minded people who need something better in their lives than what they’ve achieved on their own.
The bulk of the other world religions don’t really have this problem (though some of the new-agey proselytizing buddhist ones like SGI are imitating the Christians here to some extent).
About half the Christians in this country have gone around the bend in this area. Sorry if that offends you.
I think we’re all a little weak-minded. None of us feels happy when a loved one dies, for example.
But anyway, Jesus had some specific strong words about those who take advantage of the weak in the flock. He said it would be better for them to have a millstone tied around their neck and be drowned than to prey upon the weak-minded.
Financial schemes have no place in the church.
I can agree with you there, Arwen. Atheism can’t compete with most of the world religions wrt promises of an attractive/compensatory eternal Afterlife. IMO, the more successful religions have undergone “Message Evolution” over the centuries to successfully snag people — which would be everyone, really — who aren’t satisfied with “that’s it! yer just dead, dude!”
I believe it is Tony Blair quote at the end of the CD version of the Chumbawamba song “Dumbing Down”:
“If there’s nothing after death then why are we living anyway? What’s the point of 70 years . . . absolutely pointess!”
Troy: I can agree with you there, Arwen. Atheism can’t compete with most of the world religions wrt promises of an attractive/compensatory eternal Afterlife.
Actually, it can, by offering up the promise of paradise on Earth. That’s what Nazism and Communism are all about. And then there’s the promise that while you will die, the State will live on forever. Millions risked their lives on the basis of that religious premise.
And then there are the “atheists” who are actually narcissists, i.e. they worship themselves. Religions typically require contributions from their followers in order to pay for administrators and educators (i.e. pastors or priests). Narcissists get to keep everything in-house.
I think narcissism is a much more attractive religion. You get to keep everything for yourself, and you don’t have to obey any pesky rules drafted by religious authorities outside of yourself. This is why narcissism is rapidly gaining ground in the West, at the expense of the existing organized religions. (Islam is an exception to this decline, since the penalty for apostasy is death - not just in the next world, but in this one).
Nazis were athiests? “Gott ist mit Uns” ring a bell? Granted, Lincoln said it best:
“We trust, sir, that God is on our side. It is more important to know that we are on God’s side.”
You don’t have to obey any pesky rules drafted by religious authorities outside of yourself
I’ll settle for our founding fathers, who as a group attempted to emplace Reason, not sheepherder myths, as the moral polestar for this country.
it’s sunday and everyone’s talking religion. this blog reminds me of HBO’s Deadwood….
As a Catholic, I’d like to point out that our ministers take an oath of poverty, so there is not many real estate scams in my church.
Protestants typically think (at least this is my impression) that by saying the “Jesus Prayer” gets all of your sins forgiven, and you’ll get to heaven no matter what.
Catholics tend to think that salvation comes from living in union with Christ, and is a continuing process. Thus the phrase “Catholic Guilt.”
Of course this is posted late, so I doubt that anyone will read it. If so, feel free to bring up pedophile priests, the inquisition, Galileo, Vatican conspiracies, and the crusades.
I can only respond by relating that Napoleon once declared to a cardinal “I will destroy your church!”
To which the cardinal replied, “Good luck, for even we have not been able to destroy her.” (paraphrase)
God Bless ALL of you.
Paul
“Luis Mapula and his wife weren’t looking to buy a home when Plata was approached at the San Jose Flea Market in April 2004, according to their lawsuit.”
As usual, it is always someone else’s fault. Nobody takes responsibility to say, “Hey, I fuc*ed up in buying an overpriced house, at the top of the market, and mis-stating my income.” These people will probably not even get a ding on their credit, and guess what? They’ll be back in the market for another house before too long. People should be branded for life when they commit such fraud, barred from ever taking out a mortgage again.
As a society, people have come to believe that it is everybody’s RIGHT to own a house, regardless of income or credit. I can’t wait for the day when it is actually considered a PRIVILEGE to own a home, available for only the most credit-worthy buyers. Of course, by knocking the weakest hands out of the market, housing prices will fall accordingly. Hopefully that day will arrive soon.
Even worse,
they got to give back the house, AND they got $250,000 in damages too. (although 30% of that went to legal fees)
what a wonderful world!
HIC, I think it’s a bit narrower than that - more like, “Is America Great or What?”
This is hilarious–just last night my next-door neighbor (yeah, the one in the Robert K____ program, where you have mentors and so forth) told me she is helping to broker a deal for a friend in Murrieta. Turns out this friend of hers had her identity stolen BY HER MORTGAGE BROKER in Murrieta. Gee, probably someone from the Pacific Wealth Management company. The mortgage broker bought a house in Murrieta for about 650K under this other person’s identity.
The sad part of the story is that this friend of my neighbor found about it a few months ago and tried to profit of this himself by signing a quit-claim deed. Of course now, instead of being secure behind ID Theft protection laws, he is royally screwed and is on the hook for the entire house (which is no longer worth anything close to what the mortgage is for).
Coupla links to chew on
http://money.cnn.com/2007/03/09/magazines/moneymag/funds_subprime.moneymag/index.htm
http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=8829612
It’s almost impossible to count how many things are wrong in those articles. I love how I keep reading that HB stocks are so depressed. They bounced 40%, 50% even up to 80% (WCI) since their July lows. I love how the boob still uses the phrase “soft landing”. I thought that the “soft landing” myth had pretty much gone the way of the Condor.
My blood pressure is surging.
I know it’s OT but do I sell the NEW puts I bought on Tuesday? I would make 30% and the amount is small. I bought the $10 May puts at $5.20 per. I’m thinking of dumping and moving on.
I would but I’m never one to leave 30% on the table.
I’ve put my sell order in. I’m not going to be greedy. I’ve been eyeballing CFC, MDC, TGT, GS and KBH for some deep in the money puts. I like the deep in the money puts. They are expensive but don’t have the risk of the short-term out of the money puts. Bye bye NEW. You made me a couple of bucks.
“Not everyone is so pessimistic. Bargain investors are on the prowl. Last week Citigroup agreed to put money into ACC Capital, the parent of Ameriquest Mortgage, a struggling lender. Citadel, a huge hedge fund, beat Credit Suisse when it snapped up ResMAE, a newly bankrupt subprime-mortgage lender, for $22m. The bet is that when the subprime mortgage market turns around, Citadel and others will be ready.”
Are da Boyz betting on some kind of a bailout? Or are even they assuming that they, themselves, are due a bailout if something goes wrong with their subprime “investments?” Because it seems way to early for any kind of recovery in this sector, IMO.
The taxpayers will bail out the FL’s and FB’s. There is no doubt, whether it is thru taxes or inflation or both/
This time they maybe wrong? Prehaps if it keeps getting worse they will have to save themselfs ? That will be the end of the bailout of the weak hands. Even Radio call in folks are expressing doudt to the bullish RE shills.
Maybe Citigroup spent the money they extracted from another lender (NEW?) via buybacks. A poster on this blog suggested that the near future bankruptcy judge might force that deal back.
What we have here is a house of cards on TOP of a house of cards.
And to think I used to hold Legg-Mason and Weitz funds in my IRA. Oh well, timing is everything…I’ve been 99% in cash for months.
Another irritating investment article from my hometown paper said that due to stocks tanking, more investors are flocking to “safer” instruments like the 10 yr treasuries and certain bond portfolios, which will LOWER mortgage rates!
True, but as long as we see the elimination of no-doc, stated income, 100%+ LTV, neg-am stuff, it doesn’t really matter, IMHO.
I believe we’ll begin to see a much larger spread between mortgage rates and Treasury rates. We can only hope!!
it’s getting so old listening to greedy people (religious or atheists) whining about their losses. if the socalled “investments” had worked out profitbly, there wouldn’t be any complaining. people have to take responsibility for their own actions (or greed).
as the old adage goes “if it sounds to good to be true….”
WS, you’re right on target. I’ve also grown weary of our “something for nothing” society. Where else have we seen this more graphically demonstrated than in the “Zero Down” realestate bonanza of the last 6 years? Oh yeah, the tulip mania, gold rush, and tech bubble!
A plumbing contractor I worked for in my early twenties told me something I’ll never forget: “Success is all a matter of luck… And the harder you work, the luckier you get”.
“Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.” — Edison
Great one Troy!
“Luck, that’s when preparation and opportunity meet”
Pierre Trudeau
“Hynum, an East Side grandmother who said she lost $393,000. Two of her relatives also lost tens of thousands of dollars each, she said. ‘They said they could help us, that it was based on faith and trust. They knew the vocabulary to use with Christian people,’ said Hynum.”
Why, oh why would you entrust this much money to someone with no skin of their own in the game, whom you don’t really know? Greed, that’s why. Doesn’t seem very Christ-like to me.
Luis Mapula and his wife weren’t looking to buy a home when Plata was approached at the San Jose Flea Market in April 2004, according to their lawsuit.
Eastcoaster wasn’t looking to buy Girl Scout Cookies when she was bombarded by a pack of Girl Scouts at her local supermarket. But guess what? She said, “No thank you!”
Ok, cookies vs. real estate = apples vs. oranges, right? No, not right. No matter what someone’s trying to sell, people have the right to JUST SAY NO! Apparently far too many lack the ability.
I have 2 hard and fast rules that I live by.
1) Never pick up a woman at a transvestite convention (when I was single).
2) Never buy real estate at a flea market.
Those rules have kept me out of some uncomfortable situations.
With a single life like that, I assume you won’t be running for public office?
Could you pick up a man at a travsvestite convention, then?
Just curious.
2007 is going to suck.
-Rent
Now where is “imploder” or “implosion” when you need them.
“1) Never pick up a woman at a transvestite convention (when I was single).”
you are right… you did this only when you were married…
(P.S. I’ve been married and I don’t blame you…)
LOL! Those seem like pretty sound rules that just about anyone would be smart to keep in mind.
I am just sickened by reading that Mercury News article. We make around $250K a year but I am just not comfortable shelling out $1 million for a glorified shack in Palo Alto. Now I understand how it got to that level.
East San Jose, for those who don’t know, is a poor neighborhood. As the mercury news article indicates, houses there were pushed to English-illiterate Mexican workers, who didn’t know and didn’t care about the astronomical prices they were paying - all they cared was that the initial payment looked affordable, and they could live in their own home. That boom in low-end housing, a market dominated by uninformed buyers, resulted in the “relative valuation” game (reminiscent of dotcom era stocks) whereby the “logic” of “If East San Jose homes are worth $650K, Palo Alto homes are worth $1.2 million”.
The low end is crashing down now. It will reach places like Palo Alto eventually. But it is sickening still to realize how prudent people were priced out by a corrupt system. May Alan Greenspan rot in hell.
Palo..renter, Is this such a thing as low-end in Silicon valley? I don’t think you buy a 1bd condo for less than 400k at this point, never mind a sfh. Anyway ,I have personally met many a so called ignorant immigrant buyer..They knew exactly what they were doing ,and several that I talked with drained their equity at the top ,and bought homes down south of the border with that money. They told me they have their houses paid for, cash ,and just playing the game til it ends ,then adios.
—-
As a aside ,you all know perfectly well what will happen when this unwinds don’t you? You will have thousands of vacant homes, bag holders with multi homes, banks with inventory, economy all but slowed to a crawl…what will we do? I know, we’ll legalize 30-40 million illegals, and open the flood gate borders to masses of willing workers ,and consumers…mark my words…The machine just needs grist,and could care less about your standard of living.
That is why I have already applied for legal residency in Australia. I won’t sneak in like a rat even though all I want to do is work and live there. The open borders forces won’t give up until this country becomes a third world cesspool. Assimilation is discouraged and considered racist now. Non-whites who speak proper English are now derided as oreo’s, bananas or coconuts. It’s a sick world.
The sickness is largely in your head, Jerry. I can’t deny that there are large kernels of truth in what you just wrote, but the trends and realities are larger and deeper than your Weltanschauung can apparently allow.
Jerry, Australia has a housing bubble and race riots too.
Jerry,
have faith. It is always uncomfortable when large social demographics changes initiate, but believe me the Mexicans are assimilating.
We have (like everywhere else) a huge Mexican (illegal mainly) demographic moving here.
My clinic went from 1% hispanic to 30% hispanic in less than a decade. Most don’t speak Enlgish of course, so we now have 2 full time interpreters. And I’ve learned spanish.
Well, of my patients who I’ve followed for a while, all of them have picked up significant English EXCEPT for the stay-at-home moms (there are a lot of them).
But more importantly, their kids are American. No doubt about it. Sure, they also speak Spanish, and they have darker skin, but they share little with true Mexicans, and much more with Americans.
moreso though, THEIR children (the grandchildren of the illegal comers) are truly American. Most of them don’t speak a word of Spanish, they only know the USA.
It’s reminicent of the Irish. remember when we were afraid of those darn Catholic Irish? now we don’t think about it.
It will take a while (a long while) but assimilate they will.
I’m very against illegal immigration for many reasons, but Mexian people have a lot that would meld well with white American culture EXCEPT for their skin color and language. And the language will change.
Actually I’m not white and I’m a legal immigrant who is now a citizen. I don’t see the same thing happening that you are seeing. This recent wave of immigrants, especially since the 1990’s, seem more interested in how much freebies they can suck out of the government. I used to work in a restuarant when I was in college and the Mexicans there were always griping about how the Southwest was “stolen” from Mexico (who stole it from Spain who stole it from the Native Americans) and they would retake it. That doesn’t sound like the German, Irish, Jewish and Italian immigrants from the past. We also did not bend over backward to teach those immigrant children in their native tongues back then either.
I have no problem with legal immigrants who come here to work hard and assimilate. The issue is illegal immigrants and legal immigrants who come here to soak up our meager resources. We have enough homegrown criminals, losers and deadbeats, we don’t need to import more.
As someone who applied and waited my turn to come here legally, I have no respect for those who cut in line. There are 7 million people from all across the globe who have applied for their greencards and are waiting to come here legally. I respect and sympathize with those people.
What about the word illegal confuses anyone. Illegals scam taxpayers by dropping anchor babies and then lining up to game the system. Having arrived on American soil as criminals, why expect honesty from these people? From the LATimes today…
“On any given day, Los Angeles County jails have about 19,500 inmates, including about 4,500 gang members, said Steve Whitmore, a Sheriff’s Department spokesman. He said up to 25% of the inmates in the jail are believed to be foreign nationals… cited as an example the case of Joaquin Gutierrez Payan, a member of the Sureño street gang in Los Angeles.
Payan had been sent to prison for assault with a deadly weapon in a Los Angeles case and was also wanted in Mexico for murder. A native of Juarez, Payan just completed a prison term for the crime here and was turned over to Mexican authorities this week to face allegations that he raped and murdered a cocktail waitress in Juarez more than two years ago.
A check of his immigration status after his conviction for the L.A. crime found that Payan was in the United States after previously being deported to Mexico.
patrick.mcgreevy@latimes.com
“The issue is illegal immigrants and legal immigrants who come here to soak up our meager resources.”
But not too long ago our resources seemed limitless, and we feared that a labor shortage would ensue when the baby-boomers retire. And according to Microsoft and Oracle, et al, we still need more H1B visas. So it looks to me like we have a misallocation of resources, not really a shortage. We have toys overflowing our garages, and garbage overflowing our dumps, far too many realtors and lenders, but a dearth of engineers, scientists, and health professionals.
I’m a legal immigrant (albeit long ago) from Asia, and I’m amused when people think that I’m a banana because I have command of the English language and I married a white girl from Ohio - then I say something in Cantonese or Mandarin and stifle a snicker. And I speak a little Mexican street Spanish too…So let’s not blame the immigrants for everything. There are enough FBs of various ethnicities to go around.
You get what you reward. Reward illegal and criminal behavior, expect much more of the same. A LOT more.
This recent wave of immigrants, especially since the 1990’s, seem more interested in how much freebies they can suck out of the government. I used to work in a restuarant when I was in college and the Mexicans there were always griping about how the Southwest was “stolen” from Mexico (who stole it from Spain who stole it from the Native Americans) and they would retake it. That doesn’t sound like the German, Irish, Jewish and Italian immigrants from the past. We also did not bend over backward to teach those immigrant children in their native tongues back then either.
———————–
I have heard the same thing from fellow Mexican students at college and college graduates at my former job.
It’s not only the “poor” Mexicans who believe this, it’s the “successful” ones as well.
Anyone who discounts this needs to listen to Mexican TV and radio — at least you should talk to Mexican friends, neighbors and co-workers. I don’t think there is a Mexican out there who hasn’t heard of the “reconquering” of “their” Mexican territory.
As a friend once said to me, “we’re taking it back, and there’s nothing you can do about it. We’ll do it without shedding a single drop of blood. By the time the white people figure it out, it will be too late.”
Never forgot it…
“This recent wave of immigrants, especially since the 1990’s, seem more interested in how much freebies they can suck out of the government.”
The above statement can be applied to just about any group or nationality that has arrived on these shores in the last 25 or so years. Hmong, Hispanic, Vietnamese, European, Jamaican, you name it. Why? Because the US government has turned itself into a government by handouts. Sometimes the handouts are direct (transfer payments like welfare), sometimes indirect (through defense spending programs) sometimes very very indirect (Fed printing up gobs of money).
Isn’t that why this blog is here? The government has outdone itself in its multiple capacities of doling out the cash, and to those of us standing on the sidelines watching this all go on, it is very disconcerting. Because sometimes there are strings attached (mortgates to FB’s who are going to get burned) but other times there are no strings at all and nobody seems to notice (what happened to the $8 billion in CASH that was sent to Baghdad?)
Somebody correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t we send like $8 billion to Iraq and the Army lost it? Or was that $12 billion? In either case, it was a phenomenal amount of money.
“We have (like everywhere else) a huge Mexican (illegal mainly) demographic moving here.
My clinic went from 1% hispanic to 30% hispanic in less than a decade. Most don’t speak Enlgish of course, so we now have 2 full time interpreters.”
So, I’m assuming your clientele, as you note, mainly illegal, has private health insurance. You wouldn’t be sticking the taxpayers with the tab for their treatment, would you? As for those interpreters, you’re picking up the tab for them as well, right. Not sticking it to the taxpayers again, right?
Jerry,
Good for you! I got my NZ residency recently. Maybe we will bump into each other some day!
Jerry, I grew up mostly in Australia but ended up returning to the US.
Moving to Oz to escape American problems and cultural trends is a losing game, because whatever bad stuff happens in America surfaces in Australia within five years anyway.
Statistically, Australia has a higher proportion of immigrants than the US, especially in the big cities, and they have the same complaints about overcrowding, lack of assimilation, language issues, racial tensions and such.
And when you live Down Under, it’s a long way and a great expense to travel anywhere else in the world.
Jerry,
from your posts you’re clearly an intelligent guy. Follow thru on applying to Australia, I loved the place and the people. But I would also consider New Zealand, even more selective on accepting immigrants,but heaven if you can get in.
My wife grits her teeth every time the politically correct term “illegal immigrant” is thrown around. She is a naturalized citizen who knows first hand that “Immigrant” is a title awarded on the early steps to (legal) immigration. If you snuck across a border, or overstayed a tourist visa, you are an illegal alien.
Comment by Palo_Alto_Renter “May Alan Greenspan rot in hell.”
well said. I wish he dies a painful death before that. the guy single handedly screwed american economy and worse part is some people still give him credit for econimc gains in 90s.
Palo_Alto_Renter, prices in Palo Alto and Menlo Park are insane, even if you use relative valuation. I lived there off and on for 15 years and bought my first house there before the trend went hyperbolic. I now live about 20 miles north, in San Mateo Highlands, where the average price is ~$1mil, and the houses are nothing special, but we have clean air, quiet, natural beauty (views), and convenience. You might want to go on renting for a while, but I’d suggest looking at the west side of the communities north of Menlo Park/Atherton.
“Real estate agents are always the ones that take the blame from everybody,” said Neri, who notes that “anybody can sue anybody.” He said he feels sorry for Mapula and Plata and that his intention was “to have these people get a property where they can live properly.”
Oh, please, your intention was a commission. Period.
Not to mention comparables in area just went up which insures a steady and higher commissions on future sales. Repeat the cycle and commission go even higher.
“Between 2003 and 2006, that condition prevailed in California, and particularly in Riverside County.”
Hey, maybe someone else got a look at this one too. I’ll never forget a lame sign off of Van Buren about a year back, posted by a local broker. No lie, here’s what it said: “Buy the house want, not the one you can afford.” Again, no bull. I nearly drove off the road!
I was thinking of a scenario last night. This is mostly theoretical of course but wanted to get the thoughts of others. Here’s the scenario:
1. Let’s say median home price is $200K. (fairly accurate, no?)
2. With sub-prime being cut off, there are no first time buyers. (starting to happen)
3. The market for $500K - $1M homes continues albeit at a slower rate.
The median price would skyrocket, thus making people think the market is doing great and allowing Lereah and his followers to continue their sales pitch. Am I mistaken in this line of reasoning?
I believe you are mistaken. We won’t go to 0 transactions. There will still be sales on the low end. These will be formerly mid-level priced homes. I expect price cuts to come fast and furious this fall and next winter.
The NAR is not going to escape this mess unscathed. I expect that the worm Lereah will find himself in front of a congressional hearing before this is over. And they won’t have him there to thank him for his hard work.
I agee………DL’s days of sprouting crap are numbered
“We won’t go to 0 transactions.”
I’ve thought of this objection and I don’t think so either, but thought that perhaps there would be enough of an imbalance due to increased lending standards that the high end could continue for longer even if there were price reductions in that range. For example, there might be twice as many high end transactions.
At some point, though, even tougher lending standards won’t prevent first time buyers because prices will reduce to such a point that people will be able to afford the downpayment, etc.
Given this scenario, things could get stretched out, giving more life to the bubble.
Sleepless, it’s too early to tell, especially since activity is low here, but on the SF Peninsula, I am seeing a stretching of the price range in the sense that you envision. The medium-high end (say $750k-$1.5M) is holding up with slight price reductions, but the low end, especially condos, seems to be dropping more, percentage-wise.
My theory is that anything that’s Quality-of-Life equivalent to a vanilla apartment is going to devaluate to ~200x rent eventually. How much this move is mitigated/militated against with rent increases is literally the $64K question. Condo owners seem to think $420 for a 1B is saleable price. . . that’s ~300x rent almost. My rent would have to be jacked up from $1320 to $1800 to push me into the condo market, and that 36% price jack is going to take my landlord 10+ years to get there, and I don’t think he has the market power to even start nibbling at it quite yet.
LOL Consider the fact there is no lack of housing. Both local CEOs and UCLA state there is no shortage of homes. FYI - Local workforce in South bay was in 1990 around 850K and that is the same today nearly 17 years later same number at 840K. Population has been flat for two decades.
The only significant price cuts are going to come when REO Speedwagon comes to town again.
REO Speedwagon will be coming to so many towns all across the country it will look like a parade.
Foreclosures and layoffs will be a more powerful voice than the NAR and MSM shills.
hey, we agree on something
That’s why I like coming here.
sleepless,
what you say may happen, but I think it ALREADY happened.
This is why many of us started to see houses sit forever, not many sales, and we saw same-house prices falling, while the median rose in our respective cities.
I watched as houses around me sold for LESS than they “should have” given the appreciation we had in San Diego. And yet the Median was going up still. And that was probably for the reason you’re stating. People still bought more expensive homes, but were able to buy more house for the same money, and in addition the sales on the lower end were slowing.
Thus, SD’s median home prices were rising for a good year to year and a half AFTER the true peak IMO.
same with Mpls.
HIC
But I think a new variable was injected into the system: the loss of sub-prime. Or should I say a NEW variable?
I’m thinking an unintended side effect for the time being will be increased median price.
The first-time/starter market is what moved prices up at all price ranges.
The move-up market got its money from the starter market, and so on, and so on…all the way to the top. Surprise! Those $1M homes are NOT being sold to CEOs. They are being mortgaged by salespeople, mechanics, mortgage brokers, realtors, firefighters, teachers, artists, etc. Here in San Diego, if you bought a house in 1997/98 and sold in 2005, you easily could have walked away with $300K or more from the sale of your “starter” home (more money was made, dollar-wise, on the move-up market). This money was used for down payments on the $1M market, etc.
The idea that “rich” people were buying these expensive homes was largely a myth. People are over-leveraged ALL THE WAY UP!!!
That’s what will make this so interesting to watch. The financial morons…err, experts…think this is a “sub-prime” problem. Watch as it ripples right on through the “prime” loans and the $1M+ neighborhoods…
In other words, the top might “plateau” for a little bit, but once the dollars stop flowing in from the bottom of the pyramid, the top will collapse.
Same thing is happening here in Phoenix, Inspector and Sleepless. The median prices rose for about a year while the true comps were dropping. The median prices are still only down slightly while most comparable prices are down 15-20% in the outlying areas. I agree that the loss of subprime lending may actually raise the median price here. Phoenix is made up of a large number of young families who will be forced to rent until they can save a down payment. Not such a hardship since we have lots of newer affordable rentals available due to the flippers who got caught with houses they cannot sell.
‘Some of us feel kind of foolish now for believing, but these are not ignorant people who got involved with this. There’s a retired professor, a civic planner, military people, and a lawyer and a doctor,’ she said.”
“Stupid is as stupid does.” — Forrest Gump
Sheesh eastcoaster…I HOPE that NAR doesn’t hire those grinning little packs of Girl Scouts with all those chocolate MINT cookies or I’m financially DOOMED !
I know what you mean, i stopped in New Mexico for gas on the way back to Dallas and was swamped buy the pack. Needless to say I was eating cookies for the next 2 days of driving.
Those GS cookies make for nasty driving snacks….
Ben posted a LA Times article on a West Hills f’d borrower yesterday. Found a couple of foreclosures on one single cul-de-sac (8 homes in the cul-de-sac) in West Hills. Read more at BMIT.
oc,
Couldn’t post on your site (guess Google reset their usernames), so here goes:
dwr,
Any way you can forward that info to the LA Times (or the FBI)?
Irvine Renter,
I agree with you, and think most areas in So Cal will drop around 40-50% — some more, some less.
BTW, if it existed before 2001, that house would probably have sold for around $300K-$375K in 1997, maybe less.
I grew up in the general area, and the bubble, along with the flippers, were well into mid-cycle by 2001. I’ve said it before, but I believe prices would have dropped from 2001 levels, if not for the credit bubble.
Jerry…….here ya go……..great place to live.
Housing bubble…….yes
Race riots…….NO
How do I know?…….I live here
http://www.sunshinecoast.org/index.cfm
Our company just did some biz with Mauritius. Didn’t know it even existed. $13K/cap GDP, more off the beaten path than NZ even.
Yeah, but what kind of bugs do they have there?
Hopefully just the ones in our software!
I once heard it’s hard to move to Australia. Something about them limiting who they let in based on age, career, etc. Any truth to that?
if there anything like NZ they’ve got a point system. NZ’s system opens the door a bit if you’ve got tech skillz & experience; with a job offer in these specified fields you’re a shoo-in.
LOs and RE agents . . . don’t think they can get in with that, thank god.
You missed their extreme shortage of experienced sheep shearing foremen (I kid you not.)
OK luvs, can foreigners own housing? If so, how much to buy a place?
How hard for someone I know, call them x, to stay for an extended period if not interested in working? Suppose x wants to work, and has, say a puddn’head (PhD) in engineering, any issue being able to work?
can foreigners own housing?……..yes
how much to buy a place?……..depends on what type…..where……size etc
How hard for someone I know, call them x, to stay for an extended period if not interested in working? Suppose x wants to work, and has, say a puddn’head (PhD) in engineering, any issue being able to work? ………I do know the definitive answers here, but I don’t think any of the above has problems. I’m sure the Australian embassy could better answer these questions.
Thanks. I liked that oceanfront picture in the link.
“Mapula qualified for the loans through a stated-income process, his attorney said. Though Mapula signed the loan application, his lawsuit says he learned later that it falsely claimed he was making almost $100,000 a year from two jobs and receiving an additional $16,800 a year in rental income.”
“The application also said he had $19,700 in the bank, owned a $22,000 Acura and had $28,000 in furniture and personal property. Mapula said none of that was correct.”
As I suspected, California is king in Fraud. Bow to her heiness! Too many people are living with their heads in the clouds. I always wondered how “yarderos” and carpeters could afford almost million dollar homes. Ah the humanity.
“Ah the humanity.”
Newman from Seinfeld?
Lots of Fraud… was not true back 10 years ago.
I blame the hype and PR from Realtors today.
As Galbraith pointed out in “A Short History of Financial Euphoria,” the fraud phase of the cycle inevitably gives way to the finger pointing phase. And the main cyclical force which leads to the finger pointing phase is the collapse of the credit bubble. This entails falling prices, in the case of a real estate bust. Hence anyone who wants to avoid catching a falling knife is advised to wait for the finger pointing phase to play out, against a backdrop of home prices reverting to fundamental value based on a home as a place to live in, and not a get-rich-quick investment play.
Five stages of a project:
1) Wild enthusiasm: Bubble Mania & Soaring Property Values
2) Unmitigated Disaster: Fraud, Bankruptcy, Bust, etc.
3) Search for the Guilty: Fingerpointing
4) Persecution of the Innocent: Coming soon?
5) Honor and Glory for the Uninvolved: Not just yet.
I’ve got a question for people on these boards…namely, what do you think about gold?
After the sell-off a couple of weeks ago, it was easy to see people were liquidating gold holdings due to margin calls in stocks. With a stock market meltdown likely in the next (week, month, year, 5 years), is anybody holding out for that knee-jerk reaction down in gold to buy before adding to their current positions? I have generally stayed away from gold, although I have owned it from time to time. I just wish to gauge opinions given the sell-off coinciding with the market sell-off.
Screw gold. I’m going for Iridium! Now there’s a PM that’s got its act together.
Cash is king when there is fear - until inflation kicks in again
It is very hard to judge where gold will go in an unstable economic situation like we face during the housing bubble meltdown. Among the reasons:
1) Many people have been anticipating a crisis for some time now. That is why gold had a rather impressive run the past couple of years.
2) The US govt has a motive for keeping the price of gold from spiraling out of control. If that happened, a loss of faith in the dollar could ensue.
3) There is a delicate balance between inflation and deflation in the current situation, as the current Fed chairman has said in speeches that he believes he can use the govt printing press (aka inflation) to keep the economy afloat, but the subprime collapse and its effect on the housing market creates deflationary pressure (refer to Japan from 1990-2006 for a recent example of how these situations can play out). How this tug of war between fundamental deflationary pressure and central bank efforts to inflate their way out of trouble is anyone’s guess, but gold is likely to get blown in the same direction as overall inflationary or deflationary winds in the economy. (Just my hunch…)
that he believes he can use the govt printing press
let’s not forget that loan originations / MEW pumped more funny money into the economy than deficit spending these past 4 years.
think about it logically, if there is a liquidity crunch coming why would anyone buy gold? in 1998 it was a flight to safety, US Treasuries which pay interest.
Gold is not an investment. It is one component of a well-rounded hedging strategy. Don’t expect to get rich buying gold. But a little gold may come in handy. Nobody can say for sure. I don’t think a coin, or bullion bar, here and there is a bad idea. But don’t dive in wearing a tinfoil hat.
Good advice! Diversification is more important than making a desperate foray into one “safe haven” asset class (remember that houses were the “best” investment just a couple of years back!).
The assumption in 1998 was that the US current account deficit was less than 40 BIn or ~0.75% of GDP and the budget deficit totalled ~300 Bln; now the current account deficit is 800Bln or 7.5% of GDP and the budget deficit is (same accounting measures) 4.5Trillion.
In economic history no country has survived with a running CAD greater than 7% of GDP. The IMFs recommendations to curb this imbalance were rejected by the US.
Historically when countries have been in this position there has been hyper inflation Germany, Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay, Peru, Venezuela, Columbia etc. It is sad to think that the US may join this list.
Now to try to ease pressure on the dollar the government is trying to apply pressure to China et al to allow their currency to revalue faster. The problem is a pistol pointing in both directions. If China , India et al revalue then the cost of all goods coming into the US rise in price. If they do not revalue then the US dollar is going to be subject to a loss of confidence and subsequent devaluation. Again inflation.
Gold is not a very good hedge against inflation, but it is an excellent hedge against commodity price increases.
I just read The Secret. I’m going to think about gold and hopefully it will manifest itself.
“‘I have stacks of cases,’ said Emilio Martinez, a Watsonville-area private investigator who has specialized in real estate cases for the past year.”
RE Agents: This may be a new career opportunity for you.
Gold ?…Just throw the ROLEX out off the window at the Borderguard as you HIT the GATE at 98 MPH.
RPT-Wall St Week Ahead: Stocks to watch bad home loans, CPI
From the article………
“The worst thing that could happen to any economy is the loss of confidence,” said Med Yones, president of the International Institute of Management, an economic research and forecasting group in Las Vegas.
He said the bursting of the real estate bubble and high consumer debt were a major worry and “if people started to think there may be a lot of bankruptcies (in the subprime lending market), then you’re going to see the stock market sell off.”
http://yahoo.reuters.com/news/articlehybrid.aspx?storyID=urn:newsml:reuters.com:20070311:MTFH73655_2007-03-11_15-15-26_N11283389&type=comktNews&rpc=44
Conversely, as long as we all keep the faith, it does not matter how many stupid financial decisions are collectively made. We are running a faith-based economic policy these days.
As evidence look at Social Security, Medicare.
Something will come along remedy those, right?
Yeah, about 40 million illegal aliens suddenly paying FICA and medicare taxes (if they are granted amnesty). That might help.
you’re joking right? having gamed the system for years and paid nothing, what makes you think illegals will suddenly become honest? amnesty will just give them the political power to squeeze the rest of us dry.
I have made predictions for the Irvine Housing Market.
* Median sales price will decline approximately 40% from near $700,000 to near $400,000 over the next 5 years.
* There will be a multi-year flattening of prices at the bottom.
* Sustained appreciation will not return until 2013 or later.
* Peak bubble prices will not be seen until 2027 (unless we get another bubble).
I would enjoy hearing your input (link below).
http://tinyurl.com/2penea
http://www.irvinehousingblog.com/
When I first moved to California as a young man I remember the sense of wonder and joy at the notion that anything was possible here, that one need not be bound by reason, common sense or mundane midwestern worries I had grown up with. Here was the land where a taxi driver and a waiter could truly become wealthy, famous, enlightened, or find their calling! Now I’m mostly amazed that the stupidity and absurdity can reach such extremes here. People have taken opportunity and converted it into stupid policy.
I hear you, abr. I went to SoCal from the midwest in ‘74 to go to college. Left in ‘90 at the start of the (2nd) bust of the defense/aero industry.
“There will be growth in the spring!” Chance the Gardener
Well said, Harry.
Hey, anyone know what’s happening with the wildfires in Anaheim Hills and Orange? Saw it on the NBC News. Another side effect of the bubble, too much development where it probably shouldn’t be. Florida will be finding that out very shortly here, as our own wildfire season kicks in.
I just drove by along the 57 fwy and got a nice cooling effect thanks to this smoke clode
The question is: where will people not build?
That’s a big problem in So Cal now, Palmetto. They’ve built all over the hills and valleys, right next to wildland areas.
Right now, the fire looks like it’s around 1,000 acres, 3 houses burned down, and the fire’s heading west toward more populated areas. They’ll try to get rid of some of the fuel (brush) tonight, and hope it doesn’t cross the fireline tomorrow.
Hope it doesn’t turn into one of those multi-week fires. We’ll see…
The Mepulas signed the paper with their signature okaying that kind of thing. I am CERTAIN they filled in those numbers rather than “oh we didn’t know any better”. I say bull. I think they wanted to move UP in the world and are now saying “we’re poor Filipinos who didn’t know any better”. No way do I even believe that scam.
I know this because I myself have dealt with mortgage brokers. My husband actually DOES make 100k a year and the only thing WE could qualify for was 399k! Of course we only had 50k saved.
We are currently renting. No way did the Mepulas NOT KNOW.
We’ve all heard and read about janitors and low skill wage earners who barely afford to feed their family get loans worth over half a million dollars. But has anybody heard of homeless people getting such loans? This would make a huge tv news segment.
Also, what happens when illegal immigrants decide to abandon their homes and head back south after milking the banks thruh refi’s for hundreds of thousands of dollars?
Sure there is/was (not positive if it is settled) a case of a homeless vet who bought 5 houses in Florida (?). No payments were made, the sellers over inflated the house value with appraiser collusion etc. a NINA series of loans.
Hoz, wasn’t that guy not only homeless but also *dead*? And I think it was 6 houses not 5.
Yeah, that was one for the records.
IIRC, the homeless man was found dead in one of his “homes”.
Would that be, the “homeless” man was found dead in one of his homes?
“what happens when illegal immigrants decide to abandon their homes and head back south after milking the banks thruh refi’s for hundreds of thousands of dollars?”
What makes you think they haven’t been doing this all along. But with the Mepulas as shining examples, they may hang around long enough to sue for more cash as aggrieved victims.
Witness as a lightbulb goes on in Lansner’s mind…
——————————————————————————–
Sunday, March 11, 2007
Subprime loans lured legions
High-risk mortgages funded about 1-in-5 O.C. home purchases last year.
JONATHAN LANSNER
Register columnist
jlansner@ocregister.com
Mortgage flavors come and go.
The big question is how bitter an aftertaste is left after the latest change in lending appetites.
The subprime game – lending to people with less-than-stellar financial profiles – is a mess. These loans proved riskier than promised. As a result, numerous subprime lenders are, at best, up for sale.
The lender’s bet was, in theory, a simple trade. Folks with shaky credit pay higher interest rates to get access to loans. Unfortunately, some lenders didn’t do enough homework on their clients’ ability to repay these typically variable mortgage payments. Financial losses followed.
But the housing market isn’t simply eyeballing the corporate guessing game of who buys the gutted shells of once-powerful lenders. Or who keeps their jobs and who’s out of work.
The marketplace for new loans is also evolving. What will subprime loans look like once the angst subsides and the ownership musical chairs end? Will folks with less-than-perfect credit histories still have a shot at buying a home?
It’s no small factor in the real estate puzzle.
The kind people at LoanPerformance, loan trackers owned by First American in Santa Ana, gave me a glimpse into subprime’s clout in the housing market both here and across the nation.
While these riskier loans tend to be refinancing deals, LoanPerformance’s estimates show that subprime mortgage dollars funded roughly 1-in-5 home purchases in Orange County in 2006. That’s on par with the national lending pattern.
The local market doesn’t need more headaches. Last year’s sales volume was the smallest in a decade. The nation’s picture isn’t much brighter.
Lenders remaining in subprime are facing tougher scrutiny from both regulators as well as the investors who buy such loans.
Such a change in risk appetite means, at a minimum, that these loans are harder to get and costlier. That translates into higher monthly costs for the borrowers who can still qualify for such deals.
This can only exacerbate the already shrunken roster of potential homebuyers.
http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/money/columns/article_1614808.php
I will offer an answer to the question John raised at the end of his article:
“But who can really complain if the only people buying homes are the ones who can afford the house payment?”
The FBs who purchased in the past three years can complain, as the value of their homes are likely to drop without the support of new high risk borrowers with 100% financing to keep prices moving skyward.
GS, or put another way:most of the buyers in the past few years who bought on the assumption prices will go up or a greater fool will buy…who will now? My guess is very few….
They can complain, as long as they don’t do it too loudly. They’ve got nobody but themselves to blame. No sense in having the rest of us pay forever for their stupid belief that “RE never goes down”.
In reality, I’m just plain pi$$ed at the nutjobs who bought in ‘06 with 100% loans. All they did was prop up the market for another excruciating year. And they did that in an environment where anybody with half a brain could tell that RE was in breakdown mode.
Sunday, March 11, 2007
Subprime loans lured legions
High-risk mortgages funded about 1-in-5 O.C. home purchases last year.
1 in 5? 20%??
“These loans proved riskier than promised.”
Promised by whom? The buyer who used a no-doc, stated income, IO loan package? Guess what, there was no promise.
Promised by people with a bad credit reputation. I guess they made good on their reputations.
Gas hit $3.10 a gallon in San Francisco, WOO HOO!
Ok, so gas prices are going back up. What effect does this have on the likelyhood of a recession and also the likelyhood of foreclosures and house prices dropping?
Someone who sees their monthly mortgage payment jump from $1500 to $2500 won’t go bankrupt over a Shell/Exxon/Mobil bill going from $200 to $250.
we forget one thing… Imagine a heavily loaded ship….. that any more load, the ship will tank… Many families are like that now… paying an extra $50-$100 a month for gas will definitely make the ship sink…..
I was driving through Bakersfield the other day and heard a radio ad by a lawyer looking for real estate clients. His schtick was to ask for people who claimed they didn’t know they were being put into neg-am loans.
The real estate guys were sleazy, but I see no reason to believe the follow-on lawyers won’t be sleazy as well.
Sleaze will reach a different level thats for sure.
“Not a Great Foundation for Optimism”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/10/AR2007031000071.html
From the article…………
It’s also not clear what may happen to the housing market as a result of all this financial turmoil. Goldman Sachs estimated that as a result of new, tighter lending standards in the subprime market alone, demand for new homes will fall by 200,000 units this year, 20 percent of last year’s volume. And CreditSights, a bond research firm, estimates that as many as 500,000 units could come onto the market as borrowers default and their homes are dumped back on the market.
Sales fall by 200,000 units + 500,000 units of more inventory =ummm…………….Nah it couldn’t be.
Real estate prices ALWAYS go up
That makes me optimistic.
The numbers are in my favor.
Got popcorn?
Neil
It will take years to get all those homes sold . The builders don’t need to build any homes/condos at all for years . It’s just not good for houses to sit vacant .The developers were building as if a huge amount of Americans were going to buy second and third homes . It’s so sick that you have all those houses that are vacant yet you have many people who were priced out of the market who could of been living in them had the market not inflated beyond reason .
maybe the were selling toy houses but you had to sign your name on a “fake” deed and a mrtg but then lol
whom am i kidding they are just imbecils
Gas now stands at $3.25 in Eureka for the lowest grade (typically the highest gas price in California)…
I’m really hoping we outdo our $3.79 from last year–we are on track to do so. Nothing seemed to bring more pain; not housing prices falling, not the price of steaks surging, not the outrageous PG&E bills. For whatever reason, people see red when gas goes up, and it makes people feel much poorer. Maybe this will help pop the bubble up here.
Gas prices are painful because you see them EVERY DAY. You only see your utility bill once a month. Your mortgage once a month, etc.
But if you drive by your local Shell station on Monday morning and you see they’ve raised $.10 a gallon, and then you go by it again on Thursday of the same week and you see it’s up another $.05, it’s going to hit you right in the sphincter.
BS. Gas prices painful because they are volatile.
Your mortgage payment is pretty stable by comparison, unless you are an FB with ARM, and then God help you, because you are truely screwed.
Disagree… its because its high frequency feedback as Dont_understand_RE pointed out.
And the West Coast has not purchased enough oil for the summer. What will the maximum gasoline price be this summer? I don’t know, but its going to be much higher than it is now. 50 cents higher? A buck higher? I don’t know enough to guess.
Makes me wish I had a hybrid. But I don’t. Neither do I own a large truck nor SUV either.
But gasoline is going up and that’s going to create noise, pain, and might just be the tipping point.
Got popcorn?
Neil
According to the AAA gasoline price record, we are $.20 above last year’s price at this time.
“It was always assumed that (the subprime) segment would unravel first if we had a housing correction,” said Keitaro Matsuda, senior economist with Union Bank of California in San Francisco. “But I have not yet heard from our real estate people that the contagion from subprime has impacted the regular mortgage market, and the reason is the markets are quite different. So there is no reason to believe it will happen.”
More wishful thinking from someone paid to say nice things about his bank. Subprime (in some form) is involved with probably 1 in 3 loan situations and the ripple effect will be huge if there is any unwinding, effecting inventory, turnover, and every other factor
Who is he trying to kid?
“Trust me” is always a tip off of a confidence scam.
In my local area there are scamsters operating out of local offices who are selling “oil investments” at $25K increments. I have googled this activity in KY and here is my research synopsis:
There is an emphasis on a religious/christianity vernacular presentation to what is an otherwise secular investment endeavor. (The prerequisite “I know the family behind these things and I can tell you they are very strong christians” crap that bible belters like to hear);
loose or bogus efforts by either an incompetent or unwilling state AG office to police/investigate the licensing of these pitch men as required per KY state statutes, allowing former felons to operate with impunity for years;
failure to fully disclose the nature of the activity and its inherent risks (you have to ask many, many questions and endure many “christian rebutals” and ask even many, many more questions before they will tell you it is wildcatting);
failure to disclose the high commission structure of these investments;
and failure or unwillingness to discuss any details of the actual use of the funds (who is drilling and where).
Sounds a whole lot like the recent fraud in RE, doesn’t it?
It makes no difference if you are hearing “trust me” from somebody selling you oil investments, a mortgage broker, or a new car. Anybody who is too lazy to do their due diligence and loses money to these scams DESERVES what he/she gets.
Got 10% down?
Most of these folks didn’t lose cash either, they pulled the money out of home equity using loans. This clearly isn’t biblical financial behavior, so I find it hard to feel too sorry for them anyhow. They should have been well aware no real Christian group would ask them to remortgage their house to get rich.
Bit bucket isn’t up yet, and I’m going to bed. But look at this
for a minute. The auto guys are desperate to sell cars, so what does this do to housing?
Bought a new house in early 2000 for 200K in Escondido, CA (home of the anti-illegal renting law).
The neighborhood was all white, working-class professionals: teachers, nurse, salesperson, business owner, couple retired folks.
Sold in mid-2003 for 350K and a +70% gain in three years - thought I was doing great.
By mid-2005, that house was worth 500K and the neighborhood had changed drastically. Multiple families in houses, several pickup trucks in the driveways.
In summary, a white-collar neighborhood of 200K+ homes in five short years became a 500k+ home neighborhood full of immigrant families.
Anybody think mortgage fraud wasn’t happening? No wonder the sub-prime lenders are in big big trouble …
FYI. The San Jose Merc piece on Luis Mapula and his sad situation was the lead front page story, with a full two-page spread inside showing loan docs, pics, etc.
Slowly but surely the masses awake to the collosal implosion that may come…
Hey Ben, here is a good one for Mondays list from Bloomberg
Foreclosures May Hit 1.5 Million as U.S. Housing Bust Deepens
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=ahwzaBwuNaII&refer=home
I was just about to post the same thing.
“The Center for Responsible Lending in Durham, North Carolina, said in a December study that as many as 2.2 million borrowers are at risk of losing their homes, at a potential cost of $164 billion, from subprime mortgages originated from 1998 through 2006.”
Notice that the 2.2 Million is from the SUBPRIME sector of the market. They don’t realize that Alt A and Prime loans are going to get hit too !
IIRC, at the time (3 short months ago) the very idea that sub-prime would implode with anywhere near their estimate of 20% defaults was portrayed as lunatic fringe in the MSM.
Here are a couple more regarding subprime in OC.
Subprime’s regional share of home-buying mortgages
http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/money/housing/article_1615833.php
Also
Subprime fixes come too late, some say
http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/money/housing/article_1614823.php
That first link is great. I wish they’d listed the traditional percentages.
And Santa Rosa’s median LOAN is more than San Diego’s?
By traditional I mean historical.