Sorting Through The Wreckage The Madness Caused
It’s Friday desk clearing time for this blogger. “Denver’s housing market has been red hot for the past few years. But as indicated by the presence of a ‘Price Reduced’ sign on a home in a sought-after part of Centennial, this situation may finally be about to change. Janene Russeau of Madison & Company, who’s handling the house — it was originally priced at $639,000, but is currently going for $599,000 — feels that ‘it’s turning a little bit more into a buyer’s market, as opposed to a seller’s market.’ Already, she says, ‘houses are definitely staying on the market a little bit longer.’”
“Homes sales in Cedar Park and Leander decreased 0.8 percent year-over-year in July, and the median price of a sold home fell 4.5 percent to $291,273, according to the July 2017 Central Texas Housing Market Report. ‘In years past, the high demand of the summer selling season has further constrained inventory levels and further pushed up home prices,’ said Brandy Guthrie, president of the Austin Board of Realtors. ‘This year has been different, with steady gains in sales volume as well as listings and inventory throughout the summer.’”
“A Miami real-estate analyst sheds light on the wonderfully stupid way South Florida operates: For the past handful of years, condo prices in the area have been criminally high, so condo developers have laid waste to any undeveloped piece of land they could find, stacking buildings into the sky regardless of whether anyone would buy them. Now they’ve finally built so many they can’t possibly sell all the multimillion-dollar condos.”
“‘It is worth noting this report only tracks those Sunny Isles Beach condos formally listed for sale,’ Peter Zalewski’s Condo Vultures realty firm wrote. ‘The report does not factor in the nearly 47,550 new condo units currently in the development pipeline east of Interstate 95 in the tri-county South Florida region.’ By 2020, Miami-Dade will have a truly remarkable glut of properties to sell, and Zalewski’s report suggests we really didn’t need many of them in the first place.”
“The property bubble in Malaysia is set to burst, but the government must resist the temptation to intervene and allow market forces to coordinate supply and demand, says a think tank. In an interview with FMT, the Institute for Democracy and Economic Affairs’ senior fellow, Carmelo Ferlito explained the two ‘economic dynamics’ which have resulted in the current property situation in the country, where the prices of homes are beyond the reach of most and the oversupply of such homes, has led to many being left unsold.”
“‘Malaysia is undoubtedly experiencing a housing bubble and the unsold properties are a natural consequence of this bubble,’ Ferlito said. The number of unsold properties was a sign that the property bubble may have reached its final stage and that the property market was close to crashing. ‘But the property market crashing can be seen positively if we’re looking at the goal of reducing housing prices. In a situation where there is over-supply and high prices, we should let supply and demand do its job and let the market affect prices to the levels they should be.’”
“Expensive property markets, soaring levels of household debt and predatory lending practices have come under fire with experts warning thousands of households are on the verge of mortgage stress. Australia now has the second highest housing debt in the world, after Switzerland, and almost twice that of the US. Another expert who expressed concerns about household debt was Jonathan Tepper – founder of London-based research house Variant Perception, known for his bearish views on the housing market. ‘The dream run is about to end. Price to income ratios are very high,’ Mr Tepper said. ‘Anyone with a pulse could essentially get a mortgage.’”
“Sizzling property prices, a groaning debt load, wealthy tourists and tycoons willing to slap down eye-popping sums for art: China is starting to look like Japan before its economic bubble burst in the early 90s. ‘What’s scary is that people in China are thinking, ‘China is special, so we are OK.’ That’s exactly how people felt in Japan during the bubble era,’ said Kokichiro Mio, senior economist at NLI Research Institute.”
“‘In some small ways, the madness continues.’ That’s the view from Durham Region, where real estate agent Shawn Lackie sees sellers who are deluded about the current real estate mood in the Greater Toronto Area and surrounding towns. They’re pushing for lofty sale prices that are no longer realistic. In most cases, he’s setting an asking price around the estimated market value with no deadline for reviewing offers. Other agents in the area are still trying to generate bidding wars with asking prices as low as $1, but he thinks such tactics aren’t luring buyers at the moment.”
“At the same time, lawyers are still sorting through the wreckage the madness in the spring caused, he says. Many buyers need an extension to the closing date, while some deals are not closing at all. Some sellers are being pressed to agree to a discount to the sale price that was originally agreed upon. ‘Abatement seems to be the word of the day.’”
“Economic experts are raising concerns over the province’s financial reliance on B.C.’s booming real estate market and the new government’s promise to try and cool the market down. Tsur Somerville, a professor of economics at the University of British Columbia is concerned that during the most recent provincial election campaign the B.C. NDP promised to cool the hot housing market.”
“‘If you slow down the real estate industry, because it’s an overly large part of our economy, you’re going to have some repercussions,’ said Somerville. ‘It’s not a healthy situation to be that dependant on real estate, so the adjustment is going to be a little bit painful no matter what happens.’”
‘House sales in Calgary are still sluggish, but that’s not stopping people from putting their homes on the market, according to the latest figures from the Conference Board of Canada. The board’s Metropolitan Resale Snapshot shows that Calgary is among 19 of 28 surveyed markets where transactions continued to cool off.’
‘The board classifies Calgary as a buyers’ market, along with Toronto, Oshawa, Edmonton, Regina, Saskatoon, Quebec, Saguenay, and Newfoundland and Labrador.’
If you need to sell (for whatever reason), why would anything stop you from putting your house on the market??
‘lawyers are still sorting through the wreckage the madness in the spring caused, he says. Many buyers need an extension to the closing date, while some deals are not closing at all. Some sellers are being pressed to agree to a discount’
One of the hottest markets in the world - 4 months ago.
One of the best ending scenes of a movie ever…
+++++++
Joyce, manning the detonator, breaks cover and stabs Saito to death. Aghast, Nicholson yells for help, while attempting to stop Joyce from reaching the detonator. As he wrestles with Nicholson, Joyce tells Nicholson that he is a British officer under orders to destroy the bridge.
When Joyce is shot dead by Japanese fire, Shears swims across the river, but is fatally wounded as he reaches Nicholson. Recognising the dying Shears, Nicholson exclaims, “What have I done?” Warden fires his mortar, mortally wounding Nicholson. The dazed colonel stumbles towards the detonator and collapses on the plunger just in time to blow up the bridge and send the train hurtling into the river below. Witnessing the carnage, Clipton shakes his head muttering, “Madness! … Madness!”
“One of the hottest markets in the world - 4 months ago.”
Hehe… going Japanese.
“the wreckage the madness in the spring caused”
Interesting wording, blaming the boomtime frenzy itself for the chaos rather than blaming the implosion. They’ll have to edit this - it doesn’t fit with the party line that the only problem with bubbles is when they burst.
Redwood City, CA Housing Prices CRATER 6% YOY
https://www.zillow.com/redwood-city-ca/home-values/
HA, you are such a jokester!
‘Homes sales in Cedar Park and Leander decreased 0.8 percent year-over-year in July, and the median price of a sold home fell 4.5 percent to $291,273′
Good thing they are putting 3% down. Also formerly one of the hottest markets.
‘as indicated by the presence of a ‘Price Reduced’ sign on a home in a sought-after part of Centennial, this situation may finally be about to change. Janene Russeau of Madison & Company, who’s handling the house — it was originally priced at $639,000, but is currently going for $599,000 — feels that ‘it’s turning a little bit more into a buyer’s market, as opposed to a seller’s market.’ Already, she says, ‘houses are definitely staying on the market a little bit longer.’
It just keeps happening!
Mel Watts says they are good for it and won’t walk.
But if they do, no banks will be harmed. The taxpayer guarantees it.
The pendulum keeps swinging….it always has and always will.
Eventually, no matter how many cheap/easy/ZIRP obama bucks are floating around, markets always return to fundamentals.
Is this the time? Who knows?
+++++++
San Francisco Bay Area Pending Home Sales Plunge
Wolf Richter • Aug 24, 2017 • Wolf Street
Real estate agents listed three reasons for the debacle of pending home sales in the state of California in July:
Lack of inventory for sale. This was the top reason for 30% of brokers. The math is starting to bite: more people are stuck in their homes as prices have soared all around, and as mortgage payments needed to finance an equivalent or nicer home have moved out of reach.
Declining housing affordability and “high interest rates” – which are near historic lows! – was cited by 28% of brokers.
“Inflated home prices” and “housing bubble” were cited by 25% of brokers.
Slowdown in economic growth, lending and financing, and policy and regulations were other “biggest concerns.”
These issues “may have pushed the market to a tipping point,” the California Association of Realtors said in its pending home sales report for July.
For California, the index of pending home sales in July, based on signed contracts, fell 2.6% from July a year ago on a seasonal adjusted basis. It was the sixth month in a row of year-over-year declines. But the overall decline of pending home sales in the state covers up the strength in parts of Southern California and the dizzying turmoil in the San Francisco Bay Area, where pending home sales got crushed.
In the Southern California Region, pending home sales rose 1.4% year-over-year, “the only major region” with an increase. But real estate being local, there were huge differences: In Los Angeles, pending home sales jumped 4.0% year-over-year; in San Bernardino County 6.0%; and in Orange County 4.6%. But in San Diego, pending home sales dropped 5.8% and in Riverside 4.2% year-over-year.
In California’s capital, Sacramento, where home sales had been hot, they plunged nearly 18% from a year ago.
And in part of the San Francisco Bay Area, pending home sales went over the cliff. In the region overall, pending home sales plunged 11.5% year-over-year. In San Mateo County, the northern part of Silicon Valley, pending homes sales plummeted 21.4%. In San Francisco, they plunged 11%. And in Santa Clara County, the southern part of Silicon Valley, pending home sales dropped 9.8%.
Nothing will return San Francisco to fundamentals more effectively than the San Andreas Fault.
Nah.
Imagine SF with 5% interest rates, no more bailouts, bankers in jail, enforcement of fraud/GAAP laws, enforcement of immigration laws, anti monopoly breakups of Googe/Facebook and public pensions having to be fully funded…
And….
Mel Watts being fired and 20% down payment loans becoming the norm again.
“bankers in jail…”
…sucking bananas.
Imagine SF with 5% interest rates, no more bailouts, bankers in jail, enforcement of fraud/GAAP laws, enforcement of immigration laws, anti monopoly breakups of Googe/Facebook and public pensions having to be fully funded…
I used to have that dream. But it appears we’ve chosen the hard(er) way instead.
to fundamentals more effectively than the San Andreas Fault ??
Wishing for ??
“There is no longer any excuse for making the same mistake with economic theory. For more than a century, the public has been warned, and the way forward is clear. It’s time to stop wasting our money and recognise the high priests for what they really are: gifted social scientists who excel at producing mathematical explanations of economies, but who fail, like astrologers before them, at prophecy.”
By fetishising mathematical models, economists turned economics into a highly paid pseudoscience
The new astrology
https://aeon.co/essays/how-economists-rode-maths-to-become-our-era-s-astrologers
I was in a hotel yesterday so I had a TV. There was this interview with the Dallas Fed guy from Jackson Hole. Man did that thing have cult written all over it. Sitting outside in rugged expensive active wear, dramatic setting of mountain outlines as the sun came up. So he goes on to explain his support of NAFTA, blah. But he sure wants to unload the balance sheet!
Then they veered into something strange. What was the Fed doing about the hurricane? He went into this long thing about making sure banks have enough money! That’s right folks, don’t worry about that rain and wind because the central bank has it covered. Golly, these guys can do anything.
Where do I get in line after the apocalyptic floods?
10-4
Central bankers will be hunted down like the Romanian commie
Central bankers will be hunted down like the Romanian commie
Wouldn’t that require the torch and pitchfork masses to actually understand who they are and what they do?
“Sitting outside in rugged expensive active wear, dramatic setting of mountain outlines as the sun came up.”
Vomit-inducing.
Magic people!!!
gifted social scientists who excel at producing mathematical explanations of economies, but who fail, like astrologers before them, at prophecy.”
But even this is not true. Mainstream are not “gifted social scientists”, nor do their mathematical “explanations” of past events explain anything.
Well played Mr. Banker. Well played.
“Overall, most workers said they are in debt and many believe they always will be.”
+++++++
Most Americans live paycheck to paycheck
CNBC - 8/24/2017
Seventy-eight percent of full-time workers said they live paycheck to paycheck, up from 75 percent last year, according to a recent report from CareerBuilder.
Overall, 71 percent of all U.S. workers said they’re now in debt, up from 68 percent a year ago, CareerBuilder said.
While 46 percent said their debt is manageable, 56 percent said they were in over their heads. About 56 percent also save $100 or less each month, according to CareerBuilder. The job-hunting site polled over 2,000 hiring and human resource managers and more than 3,000 full-time employees between May and June.
Even those making over six figures said they struggle to make ends meet, the report said. Nearly 1 in 10 of those making $100,000 or more said they usually or always live paycheck to paycheck, and 59 percent of those in that salary range said they were in the red.
Here’s another story about the same survey:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/americans-living-paycheck-to-paycheck/
I’m not sure what they mean by 56% saving less than $100 each month. Is that all savings, like retirement, or just a savings account. And isn’t it better to pay off the credit cards than put the money into savings?
“Well played Mr. Banker. Well played.”
Thank you, but credit for this achievement should go to educational programs such as No Child Left Behind.
Dumb ‘em down and profit. They dumb ‘em down, I profit.
Most Americans live paycheck to paycheck ??
Don’t worry….Cohn,Ryan & Trump to the rescue…I am quite sure that the elimination of the estate tax will give you a nice boost in your monthly income…
While 46 percent said their debt is manageable, 56 percent said they were in over their heads
Uh, that’s 102 percent.
2% are in over their heads, but also consider that manageable?
The insanity of eight years of bigger and bigger government, bank bailouts, trillion dollars deficits, ZIRP, trillion dollar stimulus and cheap/easy obama money.
++++++++++++
There are no more low-priced homes
CNBC - Diana Olick - 8/24/2017
Sales of both newly built and existing homes fell unexpectedly in July, and while it’s just one month’s data, it may be a signal that the housing market has hit an insurmountable hurdle. It is just plain too expensive. Home prices are higher at virtually every price point, but the gains are biggest at the low end where demand is highest.
The median price of a home sold in July hit $258,300, the highest July price on record, according to the National Association of Realtors. The Realtors divide sales figures into six different price “buckets” in their monthly report. Sales in the range of $100,000 or below were down 14 percent compared with a year ago, while sales of million-dollar and higher homes jumped nearly 20 percent.
“On the lower end, there is virtually no property at a very low price level anymore,” said Lawrence Yun, chief economist for the National Association of Realtors. “The same property has been moved up to a different price bucket just because the prices have been rising strongly, over 40 percent price appreciation in the past five years. We are not getting the transactions on the lower end because there is virtually no inventory on the lower end.”
In the wake of the housing crisis, investors bought thousands of low-priced, distressed homes, putting a price bottom on the market but also removing lower-priced inventory. The expectation at the time was that if prices jumped, the investors would sell. For the most part, they did not. In fact, investors continue to buy properties, even at peak prices today because both the rental market and the market to flip these homes are so lucrative.
Homebuilders are continuing to increase production and selling homes they haven’t even built at a historically fast pace. They are not, however, putting up low-priced homes, even though demand there is high. They argue they cannot make the margins work, given the high costs of land, labor, materials and regulation. The median price of a newly built home recently hit a record high.
Even if they were building lower-priced homes, investors would swoop in and buy them with cash. I’ve seen investors paying cash for new homes near me at the 400K level (Sacramento area). This madness simply has to end at some point.
Cashflow negative DebtDonkeys. Investors? Not so much.
Some have cash, but now doubt many are mortgaging other properties and using credit cards to come up with that “cash”.
investors would swoop in and buy them with cash.
And then sell those house to other investors, and so bid the low-cost houses up the food chain to where NO actual middle class person could afford to purchase it, only rent (at 40-50% income).
These bankers have a nice little racket going. They bid up assets until there’s a crash, they get bailed out, they use the bailout monies to buy back the same asset for pennies on the dollar. Then they bid up that asset again (taking a skim each time), to where no middle-class person can afford to buy the asset. Then gov steps in with Programs such as low-money or no-money down payments, Hamp/Harp, and or Section 8 or similar vouchers funded by debt money *poofed* in from China. The middle class is being traded back and forth as a bargaining chip over and over again.
Just sent that story to my brother
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/24/there-are-no-more-low-priced-homes.html who has been telling me for years what an idiot I am for not buying. Looks like it.
Who knows who will be right? I am facing a rebellion from the rest of the family. They just keep screaming “we do not want to move again”, and the landlord has not yet given us another lease (two months now.)
That the estimates of this house have now risen way beyond our means doesn’t seem to faze them. We’re in the middle of paring our possessions down to the bone to be ready for anything and they’re on board with that.
I told the LL’s agent that I was going to make a few expensive purchases that I wouldn’t make if we are getting the boot. He assures me there’s no problem. He doesn’t seem like a liar, but everyone in that business is a liar.
Here is the $639K REDUCED to $599K house, from the Centennial article.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/8206-S-Marion-Way-Centennial-CO-80122/13171778_zpid/?fullpage=true
5500 sq ft, 1/4 acre lot, built 1996
Sold Jan 2003: $470K
Sold Aug 2006: $420K
Listed Jun 2017: $640K
Listed Jul 2017: $599K
Who the heck paints the entire interior in Orange and Yellow?
Someone’s been looking at too much Pinterest and Better Homes and Gardens.
And that might be a fun house for kids, but not for anyone age 50+. There are 3-4 step staircases all over the place.
(The full article lists it at “Madison Way” but that’s a mistake. Madison is the realty company. Don’t people even bother to do a quick re-read of their writing anymore??)
Property taxes went up 40% in 2015?
Why? No sale in 2015 for a reassessment….
Must have remodeled and refinanced ..
They might have finished the basement during that timeframe. It’s a pretty common thing to do out here.
Westminister, CO Housing Prices CRATER 6% YOY
http://www.movoto.com/westminster-co/market-trends/
‘Every county in the U.S. now has an Obamacare insurer for 2018′
‘In some instances, a single insurer like Centene has come to fill the void left by insurance companies. But often times, said Cox, the process is complex and involves piecing together a solution. This is what happened in Ohio. Following Anthem’s exit, the state stitched together a patchwork of multiple insurers to cover 20 counties. “The state has been working hard to get insurers to cover all these areas,” said Cox.’
‘These solutions aren’t seamless, but Cox said there are incentives for companies to swoop into uninsured markets. Many insurers have provider networks in various counties, making it logistically easy to set up shop, and being the only network is tantamount to a monopoly. “[These insurers] can charge higher premiums without competitors,” said Cox.’
Well isn’t that special?
Obama and his legacy amounts to a monumental failure.
We’re a long way from if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor, or you’re gonna save $2500 a year. Remember how Rio used to lecture us about this stupid arrangement?
I can’t wait until Trump cancels ALL the obama exemptions for obamacare.
Push the private unions, public unions, CONGRESS/staffers and the federal work force into obamacare.
After all, that is the law.
Make them eat what they wanted.
We would get the repeal pretty quick after that.
Now that would be some hope and change.
We would be a lot better off if there was more “eat what you kill” in the world.
No Obamacare exceptions for government of unions.
Requirement for politicians to do their own taxes (and show their work).
Fund Managers invest substantially in the funds they manage.
etc. etc. etc.
I ask folks to name country w free.er hc
Pick one
Has anybody bothered to ask Obama about “if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor” and the associated proclamations of savings after it proved patently false?
Here’s about 8 minutes of Obama selling his namesake to the American people:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoYnY13YsYU
Sounds like Trudeau is a racist…
Just wait until they find out Canada deports illegals and requires ID to vote.
And they don’t get a free house or an apartment…just an army tent.
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
++++
Trudeau forced to backtrack on open invitation to refugees
The Guardian | August 25, 2017 | Ashifa Kassam
Justin Trudeau has sought to temper the notion that Canada is a guaranteed safe haven for those fleeing the threat of deportation in the United States, as his government faces criticism that its refugee-friendly messaging has given “false hope” to the thousands of asylum seekers streaming into Canada from the US.
Since the start of the year, more than 11,300 people have crossed into Canada by foot from the US. The pace has picked up in recent weeks, with as many as 250 people a day – many of them driven by fears of Donald Trump’s crackdown on immigrants – entering the country at remote, unguarded locations. Doing so allows them to skirt a longstanding pact that bars most refugee claimants in the US from applying for asylum in Canada
As Canadians officials scramble to process and house the new arrivals – turning Montreal’s Olympic stadium into a temporary welcome centre, deploying the military to set up a 500-person camp at the border and setting up a temporary tent city in a small Ontario city – Trudeau has set out to tone down the welcoming image his government has cultivated since taking power.
“For someone to successfully seek asylum it’s not about economic migration,” Trudeau told reporters…
So many formerly “hot” markets gone cold…
Does any else feel the crowd staring at the small exit door, slowly starting to move towards it…?
++++++
Next Brick to Drop on UK Economy: Housing Bubble Deflates
Wolf Street - Don Quijones - Aug 25, 2017
Demand is already sagging. In the first six months of 2017 alone, first-time buyer registrations dropped by almost 20% across Haart branches. It seems that a trend that began in London is now going nationwide.
For well over a decade soaring property prices have priced most Londoners out of the market. The number of homeowners in London in the 25 to 29 age bracket has dropped more than 50% since 1990. Foreign buyers have virtually cornered the market, acquiring as much as three-quarters of all new-build housing in the capital in recent years.
But even foreign buyers have begun to pull back from London’s property market. In April this year values in the prime central London market were already 13% below their 2014 peak, according to Lucian Cook, head of residential research at Savills. Latest figures from the ONS suggest that things may be even worse, as average property prices in London plunged 20% in the first six months of 2017, making it the worst performing region across the country.
As many as 100,000 UK households are now trapped in unsellable leasehold properties with sharply escalating ground rents. In recent weeks, the UK’s biggest selling tabloid newspaper, The Sun, joined the backlash, attacking the “fat-cat” CEOs of builders that have racked up huge profits by selling freeholds on new houses to investment firms without properly informing the new homeowners. Many of the senior executives are living in substantial houses built by the companies they manage — all of them freehold!
The UK, especially London, is so overpriced that it makes Silicon Valley look cheap.
Is that true even for the second tier cities like Manchester and Birmingham?
Petaluma, CA Housing Prices CRATER 12% YOY
http://www.movoto.com/petaluma-ca/market-trends/
Trump is big gov w occasional clipping of bureaucrats
A net big spender
Try lp.org
N va still hot ,lemmings lining
Seems to enjoy fratricide…
Realtors are liars.
Pants on fire.
Real estate tech company aims to replace agents with robots
https://www.newsday.com/business/real-estate-tech-company-aims-to-replace-agents-with-robots-data-1.13937907
Since I am a Gen-Xer I lived through most of my adult life being uninsured. The anxiety and fear of this is not what a modern society should engender in it’s citizens. I have also traveled to Mexico to buy scripts and get dental care. It was one of the best days of my life when Obama care was passed and suddenly I could get insurance. The single mothers were disproportionally targeted by the previous insurance policies that denied Medicaid to people with some assets. The women that were mostly home with their children, but who owned homes were the ones left uninsured. All people in this country should have medical care from the cradle to grave. It is a basic human right. I don’t care what it costs. The government should have taken over the system long ago, but the only thing preventing me now from being so certain of this, is the numbers of people who would be laid off from insurance companies. I suppose it needs to be a gradual phase in, but I still think the private insurers are the problem and not the solution.
I agree about the insurance companies and am willing to consider making basic healthcare a sort of regulated public utility and putting the insurance companies out of business.
I can’t get behind “basic human right” or “don’t care what it costs”, though. Those are very loaded statements with implications I don’t think are fully thought through.
Agreed, someone has to pay for it, and when that’s “someone else”, you eventually run out of other people’s money.
That said, we already have more people on medicaid than good stamps.
Costs have to be reigned in. And that means that a lot of people won’t be able to get the quality of care they have come to expect.
Costs have to be reigned in. And that means that a lot of people won’t be able to get the quality of care they have come to expect.
And/or it means some people won’t make the quantity of profit that they have come to expect.
I don’t care what it costs.
This is an unrealistic perspective. What it costs matters immensely.
Healthcare CANNOT be an all-you-can-eat buffet. Someone needs to be rational in providing care…especially when it is being paid for by the taxpayers.
Should you provide an expensive treatment to a 80 year old that MIGHT extend their life by 6 months? Should you allow a potentially life-saving surgery for someone where the likely survival from the surgery is low? What if the person is 85 years old? What about if they are 25?
Right now, the insurance company gets to be the bad guy to deny the coverage. Are we ready to put the government in the position to deny such costs–because from the discussion of “death panels”, I don’t think politicians are yet ready to be the “bad guys”. And NOT denying some such treatments is a recipe for fiscal disaster.
https://www.thenation.com/article/medicare-for-all-isnt-the-solution-for-universal-health-care/
Yes, this is complicated, and there are many sides to the issue–many of the points are opposite sides, and both ethical/moral.
Which is why I have such a problem with the ACA. Something so complex should NOT have been shoved down the throats of so many. It was up to Obama to find middle ground. And with Rahm “we’ve got the votes, f— ‘em” Emmanual at his side, he didn’t.
It’s easy to be led by the MSM to the “GOP wouldn’t play ball” camp…but if you actually read about how Obama’s administration treated GOP ideas from their first month in office, you’ll see that his administration created the rift very, very early in his first term.
‘The single mothers were disproportionally targeted by the previous insurance policies that denied Medicaid to people with some assets. The women that were mostly home with their children, but who owned homes were the ones left uninsured’
What you are saying is you want to keep your house and have free medical care. Oh for the days when we questioned why insurance keeps going up. Now we just want some easy answer that involves somebody else paying for it. What was it Moore said? “Sh*tty bronze plan you can’t even use.”
From 2013:
‘When patients pay their own medical bills, they act like normal consumers ― comparing prices and looking for value. And when patients act like prudent consumers, doctors who want their patronage must respond by competing on prices, convenience and other amenities.’
‘Consider cosmetic surgery, one of the few areas of medicine where consumers pay out of pocket. The inflation-adjusted price of cosmetic medicine actually fell over the past two decades — despite a huge increase in demand and considerable innovation [See Figure]. Since 1992:
-The price of medical care has increased an average of 118 percent.
-The price of physician services rose by 92 percent.
-The inflation rate, for all goods and services, as measured increased by 64 percent.
-Yet cosmetic surgery prices only rose only about 30 percent.
http://healthblog.ncpa.org/why-cant-the-market-for-medical-care-work-like-cosmetic-surgery/#sthash.wl7bMepj.dpbs
A friend of mine has likened health insurance to auto insurance….there should be some minimal requirements, but lots of options.
But there isn’t a single auto insurance company that pays for your oil change, or new tires, or brakes, or car washes.
Yet people expect medical insurance to cover such equivalent “health maintenance” activities (which then doctors need to have staff to bill insurance companies for many, many tiny reimbursements).
One idea is to have people pay for basic care out of pocket (perhaps up to an annual max), and leave insurance for the equivalent of a car-crash or chronic health conditions that require frequent doctor office visits. Then again, I guess it’s just un-American of me to expect that people should pay for basic needs like they need to pay for their own food, shelter, and clothing.
My insurance payments are my number one yearly expense. When I add up the money I have paid in auto insurance alone in my lifetime, it’s sickening. I’ve had one claim in 30+ years. Insurance is a racket, period.
Insurance is about risk mitigation, which has to factor into your analysis. Of course you paid in more than you got out. That’s true for most people. The only way you got ripped off is if they wouldn’t have kept up their end of the deal if you happened to be the one in a jillion to hit a black swan.
‘The single mothers were disproportionally targeted by the previous insurance policies that denied Medicaid to people with some assets. The women that were mostly home with their children, but who owned homes were the ones left uninsured’
What you are saying is you want to keep your house and have free medical care.
She was the dependent of a man, and now she wants to be a dependent of the rest of us. What do we get in return?
And these women who were “home with the children” usually get health insurance provided by the ex as part of the divorce.
And these women who were “home with the children” usually get health insurance provided by the ex as part of the divorce.
I’ve heard stories of such things in the old days, but I don’t think that’s true any more. I think now it’s not legal to keep them on your employer provided insurance if you’re divorced. So it would have to be a separate policy purchased in cash. I got hit with some things in my divorce but that wasn’t one of them, even though my ex was “home with the children”. I’ve since heard through the grapevine that she only carried insurance for a few months and a social worker somewhere felt bad enough for her to get her onto Medicaid. I would have never though in a million years that would have been possible, but I have heard since that it has become much more common under Obamacare.
If that is now the case, I would never agree to have children with a man and stay home and raise them unless he signed some kind of prenup protecting me in case of divorce.
This country really needs some form of single payer basic universal health care coverage.
“All people in this country should have medical care from the cradle to grave. It is a basic human right. I don’t care what it costs.”
Julie Marx?
Health care is not a basic human right, just as housing, food, friends, sexual intercourse, Facebook are not basic human rights. Health care is a marketable good/service people should pay for just like housing, food and sexual intercourse.
Also, health insurance is a horrible misnomer. True insurance would be catastrophic coverage plans. Get one and pay out of pocket for everything else with the massive savings.
All people in this country should have medical care from the cradle to grave. It is a basic human right ??
Ryan, McConnell and most of the republicans in Congress disagree…
So I can start sending my medical bills to scdave….it’s my right, after all!
it’s my right, after all! ??
Well it’s either a “right” or it’s a “privilege”. Which is it Dude ?
Neither. You have the right to do whatever you want with your body, and if you can talk someone else into doing something with it that you want more power to you. You don’t have the right to force someone else to do it or give you money to have it done though.
So what do we do with the blind man with no money or insurance ?? Euthanasia ??
First off, who is “we”? I assume you’re saying he also has no family?
Of course there will be the helpless. But the system should treat them as the exceptions rather than building the system around them IMO. I say that for the cold hearted practical reason that we have to make sure the producers keep producing first…otherwise there is nothing for anyone to share.
Having said that, yes there should be some kind of charity for the helpless. Whether that is approached from the government side or not, it should be separate. Just because we as a society want to and should take care of the helpless if possible does not turn that need into a “right” or a privilege. It’s simply a need that hopefully we can find a way to meet.
Then they should repeal Medicare too. That is at least some guarantee that medical care is a basic right for those over the age of 65. If Congress thinks there should be single payer insurance for the sickest of the population, then why not for the young and healthy population?
Then they should repeal Medicare too. ??
Remind me please. Did I just spend the last 49 years paying into. Insurance program so the coverage would be available to me at 65 ?
It (Medicare) is going to become insolvent whether you paid into it or not. Prepare accordingly.
https://www.cnbc.com/id/100780248
I’m obviously a democrat but I also realize that the system we have in place is going to need major tweaking as the world economies equilibrate.
My son thinks I’m crazy because I just think someone like Bill Gates or similar, should put his cash to use by building some kind of “model modern city”. It would feature vertical farming in strategic locations and a hyperloop around the entire thing, or within pods or something. My son says “only 1% of people would be willing to give up their own personal space and freedom to be housed in something like this”, but I see huge advantages. You could just have giant population centers where everyone was taken care of, and then take rental cars out and about the countryside for exploration or mining or whatever. The animals would have much more space- and the 6th mass extinction would hopefully be kept at bay. He also thinks I could be a latent communist when I speak of such things, but we need some new organization or something in this country. I mean, where exactly are we going to house and feed all the “jobless, homeless, masses” when things get just a bit more automated than they already are?
Why Robots Won’t Cause Mass Unemployment
08/02/2017Jonathan Newman
https://mises.org/blog/why-robots-wont-cause-mass-unemployment
Your son sounds like a bright lad.
Let me guess, adopted?
lol, steadykat. The son sounds like a gen-z, probably the most amazing generation to come along in decades. They’ll be the ones to re-construct from the ashes. And they know it. I talked to a lady who has three daughters, two millennials and a gen-z. The difference is like night and day.
It’s going to be a while before we fully feel the effects of gen-z, but they’ve already started quietly going about their business at very young ages. And they don’t suffer fools gladly.
You’ve been listening to too much ♥PJW♥. We don’t know how Gen Z is going to turn out. They will probably be like GenX: strong and wise because they don’t have strength in numbers.
I would like to see a study comparing the amount of money sent to the middle men insurers and how much is actually wasted that could be spent directly on healthcare if paid direct . Other rich countries have decent health care, and the women and children and disabled, and others, are cared for. And yes, of course I think I should keep my house and be insured, but I also think the entire rest of the country deserves that peace of mind also.
‘I think I should keep my house and be insured, but I also think the entire rest of the country deserves that peace of mind also.’
Sounds like wanting to have your cake, and eat it, too - by robbing Peter to give to Paul.
And you end up with a sore Peter.
I would like to see a study comparing the amount of money sent to the middle men insurers and how much is actually wasted that could be spent directly on healthcare if paid direct .
It’s all probably right there in the insurance company public financial statements. Just subtract the amount the pay out from the amount they take in.
It’s a lot of money. Which means they are very politically powerful. Until we can convince politicians to take them on nothing will change. And we won’t do that until we can resist being manipulated into fighting amongst ourselves.
Sidenote: I was surprised the Firefox spellcheck didn’t recognize amongst…the online dictionary says I’m old fashioned for using it, but it is a word. Sheesh.
The basis of your argument is people should be forced to pay for services for others. This is why our forefathers revolted against the British crown.
And lastly, I believe it is unethical to EVER make money (profit) off of sick suffering people.
julie, there’s no such thing as altruism.
‘If the candlestick maker wants cake, he can’t simply demand that the baker hand it over. The cake needs to be produced, and the baker has to expend labor and material to produce it. Unless the candlestick maker offers the baker something of value in exchange, the cakes won’t get baked.’ - Peter Schiff, Carts and Horses
‘I could be a latent communist’
So how are doctors and nurses gonna eat?
This is sort of like the housing bubble. I’ll be honest: I really do wish we could all just buy a house and the price goes up forever and we could refinance endlessly without a care, like Californians. But deep down I have this sneaking suspicion it wouldn’t work. Might even blow up on us.
“So how are doctors and nurses gonna eat?”
And how will those who take enormous investment risk developing new drugs get compensated?
And medical devices?
And developers of medical office buildings?
Take away the profit, and we get worse treatment and fewer treatment options over time.
Hate to burst your bubble.
And by the way, the answer isn’t government–a poorer allocator of resources has yet to be found.
“And lastly, I believe it is unethical to EVER make money (profit) off of sick suffering people.”
How about stupid? Is it unethical to EVER make money (profit) off of stupid people?
And lastly, I believe it is unethical to EVER make money (profit) off of sick suffering people.
Whoa. I don’t like Shrileki(?) either.
But if you are king, which is less ethical of you: Allowing a profit to be made by treatment providers, or creating conditions where no effective treatment options exist for those sick suffering people?
“…make money (profit) off of sick suffering people.”
So doctors and nurses should work for free then?
Are you a doctor?
If yes, do you donate all of your time?
The nurses and doctors are state employees in other nations. Greed and a misguided sense of morality in this country are the only reasons we don’t already have health insurance for everyone.
What country do u like?
Uk, canda sck
+1 Julie. Spot on
The nurses and doctors are state employees in other nations.
That is one way to solve the supply problem. But making it possible for as many people who want and can pass the coursework to become nurses and doctors would be another way.
Greed and a misguided sense of morality in this country are the only reasons we don’t already have health insurance for everyone.
That’s a very emotion-based argument.
I should have said, “Government employees”.
I just saw the BanVan wheeling through the neighborhood.
Your basement has windows ??
I thought he lived in a van down by the river.
Julie, you’re new here, but please stay on the topic of housing. We had a lot of political fights in the past and so Ben is trying to get away from politics.
I think it’s nattydude in drag.
Hi interesting argument, I have been noticing on some blogs that when people do not have a $40-50 $100-200 co pay they just go to the emergency room and plead poverty. After all do we have any proof they send bill collectors and process servers to illegals homes?
After watching my 600 lb life which is a sad documentary of the abuse these people suffer as a child and all their lives. You have to go through hoops to even get insurance approved and have psychological tests to prove you can handle the change. But once you are approved its amazing the transformations a year of 2 out. Now the nutty part you are left with tons of loose skin which affects mobility rashes infections and ins co deem this a cosmetic procedure so these people have to beg on a gofund me page to get help.
If you crack your tooth medicare and medicad will pull it but never repair them..But we pay for breast reductions which 90+% are not needed
We really need to have an assisted suicide rule in place, when my father had his last attack he had to wear a tight mask that helped him breath and he said no more, he gathered us all around and ask the doc just to keep giving him morphine till he passes….. very dignified.
So do we really want to spend $100 K or more keeping people alive who have no quality of life?
I have noticed people are really afraid to have a family heart to heart talk on what you want to do at the end of your life.
So do we really want to spend $100 K or more keeping people alive who have no quality of life?
“They” say this is where a bunch of our money is going. So far I’ve been lucky to not see it first hand.
I did see someone die in a Chinese emergency room though. On a gurney next to the wall, with family crying over them over the course of hours. In the USA we definitely would have checked them into a private room and hooked up some machines and spent at least a few thousand making the family feel like we were doing all we could. Which system is more moral?
“So do we really want to spend $100 K or more keeping people alive who have no quality of life?”
As long as they can vote… you betcha!
There are still private care plans and hospitals in most countries with comprehensive health care. The rich still get better care, but at least the most poor, infirm, disabled or just “down on their luck” also get the basics.
Which I think is a reasonable compromise. I’ve had “the basics” in the army where they try to keep you alive and functioning productively but your time is treated as having no value. Not particularly fun, but a big improvement over nothing. Enough to allow people with good ideas to strike out on their own and innovate instead of staying at their employer for the insurance for themselves or a family member. Which I think is the critical piece our system is currently missing.
As unfair as it might seem, we WANT the rich and upper middle class to keep paying for care out of pocket that we can’t afford to give everyone. Why? Because that’s the only way new treatments will continue to be developed. And if people who know how to manage money are paying cash for it, the costs will be contained as well as they can.
Walnut Creek, CA Housing Prices Crater 12% YOY As Housing Inventory Skyrockets
http://www.movoto.com/walnut-creek-ca/market-trends/
The phone rings in the middle of the night
My father yells when you gonna price your house right?
Cyndi Lauper drops asking price of her Stamford home
By Nelson Oliveira and Kaitlyn Lauer
Updated 5:46 pm, Friday, August 25, 2017
STAMFORD — Grammy and Tony award-winning singer and songwriter Cyndi Lauper has dropped the price of her North Stamford home, according to the listing.
The property hit the market in May for $1.25 million, and is now listed at $935,000.
http://www.ctpost.com/local/article/Cyndi-Lauper-drops-asking-price-of-her-Stamford-11960924.php
While other parts of the planet are already reflecting on the wreckage the housing market madness has wrought, the mania rages on unnoticed in San Diego County. I wonder how long it will take for the bubble collapse contagion to finally reach our region?