April 15, 2018

Wiping Away The Near Frenzied Competition

A report from the Vancouver Courier in Canada. “As housing sales dropped to the lowest level in five years, Metro Vancouver new home starts have soared in the first quarter of the year, with starts in Vancouver alone more than twice as high as during the same period in 2017. There were 6,542 home sales on the Multiple Listing Service in Metro Vancouver during the first quarter of 2018, which is a 13.1 per cent decrease from the same period last year. This represents the region’s lowest first-quarter sales total since 2013, reports the Real Estate Board of Greater Vancouver.”

“But total housing starts across the region increased to 6,864 units in the first three months of 2018, up 30 per cent from a year earlier. In Vancouver, first quarter starts soared 109 per cent to 1,956 homes, including 1,592 apartments or townhouses. Vancouver detached house starts jumped 93 per cent to 364 homes, reports Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp. Huge increases were also seen in North Vancouver, where 1,422 homes broke ground so far this year, compared with 107 in the same period in 2017. Starts were also higher in the Tri-Cities and Richmond. West Vancouver had 120 multi-family starts this year compared with none in the first quarter of 2017.”

From Madhunt in Canada. “Oxnard Developments, which is building 59 semis and townhomes, is seeking up to a year delay in paying the hard services component of development charges, of which in this situation equates to approximately $1 million, due in May, for phase two. Negar Javaherian, Project Coordinator with Oxnard, is expected to tell councillors tonight in her deputation that provincial government changes to the real estate market have created a drag on their new home sales.”

“‘Higher borrowing cost and federal and provincial government decisions have affected the demand side of the market and has caused the GTA housing market to slow down. We suppose no one is immune to this slowdown happening in the GTA home market,’ according to Ms. Javaherian’s letter to council seeking a deputation. ‘It has affected us negatively to the extent that we have sold only a few houses since last October.’”

From the Toronto Star in Canada. “Your letters: Little sympathy for home buyers caught in downturn: Mike Faye, Toronto. ‘Although basing their new-home purchase on artificially inflated house prices was very risky, it seems Mattamy Homes could provide some assistance/relief to these buyers. The most telling part of this story is that the average price for a new detached home has dropped $280,000 or 18 per cent. This means developers were pocketing enormous profits at the expense of home buyers, since they are still making acceptable profits at the new average price.’”

“No wonder house sales have dropped so much over the past 10 years. Who can afford a detached house at $1.22 million, when the median household income in the GTHA is $80,000, which can only support a mortgage of about $350,000 at 5 per cent over 25 years, without spending more than 30 per cent of their income. We need the industry to build housing people can afford.”

“Victor Doyle, Toronto. ‘I am not a fan of builders but, in this instance, Mattamy has done nothing wrong. It is unfortunate for the buyers that they’re not getting approved for conventional mortgages but, at $1.6 million, these are not folks who are financially struggling. These are folks who timed the market incorrectly and not getting what they want versus what they need.’

‘Is the Star actually supporting government intervention to help folks who can’t afford $1.6 million but could likely afford $1 million? With all the other social issues we have in this province, supporting families who are obviously not starving and struggling should be way down the list. The fact these folks bought before having the cash in hand is representative of their market sentiment and, to a small extent, greed.’”

From the Goldstream News Gazette in Canada. “The City of Colwood has thrown its support behind the province’s speculation tax as a way to help cool off housing prices in Greater Victoria. During a meeting earlier this week, council voted not to send a letter as requested by the Victoria Real Estate Board, asking the province to take a sober second look at the unintended consequences the tax could have before it’s implemented later this year.”

“Coun. Jason Nault saw first-hand the effects of people purchasing properties as investments only to have them sit vacant. While waiting for his current house to be built, he rented a house in Colwood and said almost half of the other homes on the street were unoccupied for a majority of the year. He hopes that will change once the tax is implemented.”

“‘There were no people living there and they were not people who contributed much to Colwood,’ he said. ‘I understand this might drive down in the short term prices of existing homes. They’re ridiculously priced as it stands.’”

From the Daily Mail on Australia. “Inner-city house prices in Sydney plunged by 10 per cent last year for the first time in more than a decade. The decrease in March represented the biggest fall in 13 years according to CoreLogic. Real estate agents have been left frustrated by the price falls laying the blame on banks for refusing to give out loans to would-be buyers. House prices fell in the city and inner south region by 10.1 per cent and inner west by 9.2 per cent which covers the suburbs of Redfern, Surry Hills and Newtown. The area with the biggest falls came in Baulkham Hills and Hawkesbury where houses dropped by 2.9 per cent and apartments plummeted by 12.2 per cent.”

“A two-bedroom cottage in Newtown sold for $1.3 million in March which would have fetched $100,000 more a year ago, one agent told realestate.com.au. Another property in Redfern, which agents believed could have fetched $1.7m in 2017, is now on the market for $1.2m. Ercan Ersan, of agents Ray White, said: ‘Talking with all the top mortgage brokers, they say the banks are taking up to five weeks to approve a loan rather than two weeks. They’re focusing more and more on buyers capacity to pay back the loan.’”

“Analysts believe the market will get harder if there is more scrutiny by lenders about whether to approve loans - following a royal commission investigating banking practices.”

From Domain News in Australia. “Not a single region in Sydney has been immune to the effects of recent tightened lending restrictions and a record increase in housing supply. Some homeowners who last year could have sold anything with a roof over it, are now struggling to sell homes even in highly sought-after locations around the city. Since February this year, auction clearance rates in Sydney have fluctuated between about 51 to 63 per cent, but some sellers in pockets of Sydney have felt the effects more acutely.”

“‘You see a huge drop-off generally because of the tightening in lending standards that APRA put through. You’ve got a lot of apartments, so supply has gone up. That has led to less confidence from buyers,” AMP economist Shane Oliver said.”

“One of the biggest changes seen in a single suburb was Hornsby. In the first three months of 2017, 86.4 per cent of properties were selling at auction. At the beginning of this year, just 14 homes went to auction, of which only a quarter sold. Real estate agent at LJ Hooker in Hornsby Nick Addison said a huge number of off-the-plan units ‘flooding the market’ were partly to blame for the lack of homes selling at auction, because they had created an oversupply of housing in the area.”

From News.com.au in Australia. “Sydney’s once frustrated home buyers have moved into a commanding position in real estate sales following the city’s flip from an extreme seller’s market to a buyer’s one. Data provided exclusively to the Daily Telegraph revealed city housing demand has dropped 25.4 per cent from a year ago, wiping away the near frenzied competition buyers were previously facing for listed properties.”

“The softer demand — mostly the result of investors and China-based buyers dropping out of sales — followed a 23 per cent bump in the supply of available housing over the same period. Home seekers have capitalised on the increased choice of homes and fewer rival buyers by negotiating prices down. Realestate.com.au’s Property Outlook report showed Sydney’s median house price dropped 4.6 per cent over the past year, while a typical unit is 1.4 per cent cheaper.’They are not competing at auctions with as many investors as they once were and the urgency to buy has gone a bit,’ the online property portal’s chief economist Nerida Conisbee said.”

“Ms Conisbee added that prices would likely continue to fall for a few more months but the strong NSW economy would prevent a major market collapse. ‘First home buyers shouldn’t wait thinking prices will keep going down and they will soon be able to afford to buy in somewhere like Rose Bay. That’s not going to happen,’ Ms Conisbee said.”

From Mirage News in Australia. “RiskWise Property Research CEO Doron Peleg says the research house has received a number of enquiries about Central Queensland as an investment alternative to the major East Coast hubs of Sydney and Melbourne. ‘Central Queensland is attracting a new wave of attention because many investors believe this property market has hit rock bottom and that the only way is up,’ Mr Peleg said.”

“However, he said the economy of Central Queensland had been in decline ‘at an alarming rate’ since the end of the mining boom. ‘This is followed by negative capital growth of, on average, (-17.5%) for houses and (-18.7%) for units in the past five years,’ he said. ‘Some areas, such as Gladstone – Biloela experienced even more severe price reductions, with (-28.7%) negative growth for houses and (-39.9%) for units in the past five years, including -7.3% and -10.4% in the past 12 months, for houses and units, respectively. So, it’s no surprise many believe strong capital growth will follow.’”

“However, Mr Peleg said while its economy had shown some slight improvement recently, Central Queensland was projected to deliver low economic growth, a soft job market and low population growth. ‘This means both houses and units in the region still carry high risk and research in our report, published last month (February), backs that up,’ he said. Moreover, he said the unemployment rate in the region was ‘very volatile,’ with frequent significant changes in recent years.”

“‘The risk is even higher for off-the-plan properties that are currently in the pipeline. The 559 house building approvals and 639 unit approvals are of the greatest concern as these new properties will be added to the already current oversupply,’ he said.”




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128 Comments »

Comment by Mortgage Watch
2018-04-15 09:43:13

Ashfield, MA Housing Prices Crater 22% YOY As Boston Metro Housing Correction Spreads

https://www.movoto.com/ashfield-ma/market-trends/

 
Comment by Ben Jones
2018-04-15 09:44:51

‘First home buyers shouldn’t wait thinking prices will keep going down and they will soon be able to afford to buy in somewhere like Rose Bay. That’s not going to happen’

I got 5 Australian pesos that says you’ll be eating crow Nerida.

Comment by Mafia Blocks
2018-04-15 09:49:44

I recall a few a large number of state realtor association presidents said the same thing….. right before prices fell 40%

Comment by Lisa
2018-04-16 08:29:43

Indeed.

Every day I read this blog, I have to pinch myself that we’re in 2018 and not 2007. The headlines & RE propaganda are identical.

 
 
Comment by Parker
2018-04-15 10:37:57

When the buyer’s gain is the agent’s loss, they have every reason to push push push and lie lie lie.

#SaveOurCommissions

Comment by MacBeth
2018-04-15 17:09:59

Agents would much rather you knock your price down if you are the seller. Agents want to put in minimal effort….a full priced house represents more work and a longer sales process.

Agents do not give a rat’s behind about the seller or the buyer. If the former loses out on $20K, they do not care. They also do not care if they screw over the buyer.

Whatever it takes is the name of the game. Why do you think NAR is a huge lobbyist group? Because they give a damn about buyers and sellers?

Comment by BlackSwandive
2018-04-15 20:36:56

A REALTWHORE’s job is so easy that a McDonald’s worker could be trained in a day or two to do it.

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Comment by Professor 🐻
2018-04-15 22:36:25

That’s kinda like suggesting that a prostitute’s job is so easy that a McDonald’s worker could learn to do it in a day.

Of course they could, but wouldn’t flipping burgers be a better choice of livelihood than turning tricks for strangers?

 
Comment by Jingle Male
2018-04-16 03:15:22

You must not have purchased a house lately. The amount of paperwork is staggering! It is a very onerous process.

 
Comment by MacBeth
2018-04-16 03:22:53

A very important point.

Why would ANY buyer or seller trust a realtor? A realtor has no skin in the game. They do not invest years of money or study in their vocation.

Might as well sell snake oil out of the back of a covered wagon. Nearly the same level of personal investment.

 
Comment by BlackSwandive
2018-04-16 07:58:42

“You must not have purchased a house lately. The amount of paperwork is staggering! It is a very onerous process.”

Most of that paperwork is completely unnecessary - a bunch of legal CYA garbage created by the NAR’s legal team to muddy up the process and make it look like it’s an arduous process to buy or sell property. It’s not. Furthermore, most REALTWHORES have absolutely no idea what they’re even having their customers sign. They don’t understand the forms, they just know where to tell people to sign and initial.

 
Comment by Jingle Male
2018-04-17 02:30:37

Yes, you are correct. It takes more trees to make the paperwork than it does to build a house!

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Ben Jones
2018-04-15 10:06:13

‘Nick Addison said a huge number of off-the-plan units ‘flooding the market’ were partly to blame for the lack of homes selling at auction, because they had created an oversupply of housing in the area’

Too many airboxes = no sales? Rental watch is gonna have to explain this turn of events, because he says it’s unpossible to build enough. And what’s this?

‘There were 6,542 home sales on the Multiple Listing Service in Metro Vancouver during the first quarter of 2018, which is a 13.1 per cent decrease from the same period last year…total housing starts across the region increased to 6,864 units in the first three months of 2018′

More starts than sales? But, shortage?

‘Higher borrowing cost and federal and provincial government decisions have affected the demand side of the market and has caused the GTA housing market to slow down. We suppose no one is immune to this slowdown happening in the GTA home market,’ according to Ms. Javaherian’s letter to council seeking a deputation. ‘It has affected us negatively to the extent that we have sold only a few houses since last October.’

‘affected the demand side of the market’

Demand side? We humans can only control the supply side, so we’re told. Jeebus, we’ve got millions of children living in cardboard boxes people! We gotta build build build!

Wait, what if they’re onto something? Cut back on the lending gravy, cut down on speculation and poof, shacks get cheaper. That’s a lot easier than building canyons of empty towers no one can afford.

Comment by BlueSkye
2018-04-15 12:50:57

Easier maybe, but then a whole class of grifters would have to find honest work.

Comment by Mr. Banker
2018-04-15 14:09:06

😣

 
 
Comment by Neuromance
2018-04-15 14:12:24

Build it, don’t build it. Population grows, population goes down. Jobs come in, jobs leave. House prices seem to move to the tune of some different drummer:

San Francisco:
1) House price index: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/SFXRSA
2) Population chart: https://www.google.com/search?q=san+francisco+population

Baltimore:
1) House price index: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/ATNHPIUS24510A
2) Population chart: https://www.google.com/search?q=san+francisco+population

San Francisco is considered a vibrant tech mecca. Baltimore is a slowly decaying backwater between DC and New York. House price movements similar, though of course the prices themselves are different.

Seattle:
1) House price index: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/SEXRNSA
2) Population chart: https://www.google.com/search?q=seattle+population

Comment by Rental Watch
2018-04-16 00:23:27

2006, SF peaked at 219, Baltimore MD peaked at 201. Within 10%. Classic symptom of the bubble years…even outlying places spiked…despite there being plenty of supply relative to demand…prices were unhinged from reality.

2018. SF is at 259, Baltimore MD at 177. Clearly what is happening now is something different than before…prices are not moving the same between the two cities…could it be perhaps that the supply/demand balance is different–and that actually matters this time around?

Comment by Sam (SW)
2018-04-16 09:07:01

I would guess the disparity between Maryland and SF has more to do with the tech bubble than housing supply this time around.

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Comment by Jingle Male
2018-04-16 03:57:02

I agree with balanced approaches to the supply/demand equation and have called for taxes on vacant housing. Building new houses is also important, just as the link shows:

“…..Vancouver new home starts have soared in the first quarter of the year, with starts in Vancouver alone more than twice as high as during the same period in 2017.”

We went up to Vancouver last year just to look around. It is a beautiful city, but housing is a big problem, needing multiple factors to solve the riddle!

 
 
Comment by Ben Jones
2018-04-15 10:11:35

‘Don’t borrow up big to help your kids lose money’

‘There’s a certain irony in watching the banking royal commission shutting the gate on dodgy mortgage lending, just after a two-decades-long credit boom has ended.’

‘Bribes, forged documents, unethical commissions, and look-the-other-way lending standards are all being exposed, and the result will be that banks will be able to lend less to each customer in the years ahead.’

‘But how much less?’

‘Martin North, principal of consultancy Digital Finance Analytics, says his research shows tightened lending standards have already reduced the borrowing power of first home buyers by around 20 per cent.’

‘And that’s mostly from pre-royal commission changes such as higher capital adequacy rules for banks and more rigorous ‘stress tests’ being used to assess serviceability of loans as global interest rates start to rise.’

‘So while it’s undoubtedly good to clamp down on dodgy practices, there were forces at work that would reduce loan sizes even before Commissioner Kenneth Hayne started hauling bankers over the coals.’

‘In a falling market, the young home buyers end up watching their thin sliver of equity disappear, while their parent’s second-mortgage loan-to-valuation ratio gradually creeps up. And how comfortable will they be handing over a large chunk of money knowing that half or more of it will go up in smoke as the market falls?’

‘Mr North thinks that as parents face up to these realities they will be less forthcoming, and that the real impact of the credit slowdown on house prices will finally be revealed. He expects 2019 to be the annus horribilis when Australia’s housing prices are finally seen for what they are – unaffordable and long overdue for a correction.’

 
Comment by Ben Jones
2018-04-15 10:15:07

‘Although basing their new-home purchase on artificially inflated house prices was very risky, it seems Mattamy Homes could provide some assistance/relief to these buyers. The most telling part of this story is that the average price for a new detached home has dropped $280,000 or 18 per cent. This means developers were pocketing enormous profits at the expense of home buyers, since they are still making acceptable profits at the new average price.’

Dang Mike, you are going to make Rental Watch have a breakdown. This means these guys have just been greedy bashtards all along.

Comment by Mafia Blocks
2018-04-15 10:20:16

Considering production cost for a SFR is $50/sq ft (lot, labor, materials and profit), builders have all sorts of room to move prices lower. What we’re seeing now is exactly that. Builders taking out homeowners at the knees on price.

Comment by tresho
2018-04-15 10:43:15

I would like to read a true story about an actual contractor who builds a custom home for a would-be homeowner (not a spec home, and not a luxury home either) for that kind of money, including a reasonable profit for the builder. From the lack of such stories, I can only guess that builders and contractors are not interested in doing that for anyone.

Comment by Mafia Blocks
2018-04-15 10:53:36

We do it all the time.

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Comment by azdude
2018-04-15 11:18:45

“home prices are too important to the economy and tax revenue to fall very far.” SHP

 
Comment by Ben Jones
2018-04-15 11:34:43

“home prices are too important to the economy and tax revenue to fall very far.”

Bzzz, wrong answer:

‘This is followed by negative capital growth of, on average, (-17.5%) for houses and (-18.7%) for units in the past five years,’ he said. ‘Some areas, such as Gladstone – Biloela experienced even more severe price reductions, with (-28.7%) negative growth for houses and (-39.9%) for units in the past five years, including -7.3% and -10.4% in the past 12 months

 
Comment by Mafia Blocks
2018-04-15 11:39:38

Housing DumpsterFire…. Housing.

Washington DC 20010 Housing Prices Crater 12% YOY

https://www.zillow.com/washington-dc-20010/home-values/

https://snag.gy/m5EzRB.jpg

 
Comment by azdude
2018-04-15 11:40:26

without home equity, stock gains and govt spending there isnt much of an economy.

 
Comment by MacBeth
2018-04-15 12:28:25

Nonsense.

 
Comment by Mafia Blocks
2018-04-15 13:02:35

It’s reality my friend.

 
Comment by In Colorado
2018-04-15 13:24:24

without home equity, stock gains and govt spending there isnt much of an economy.

That isn’t an economy, that’s called kicking the can.

 
Comment by MacBeth
2018-04-15 17:13:07

You are correct In Colorado.

It’s also a misnomer to say we live in a capitalist society. We don’t.

 
 
Comment by Ben Jones
Comment by Professor 🐻
2018-04-15 22:41:00

Dang…looks like the bubble in home prices goes back to the 1940s!

 
 
Comment by MWR
2018-04-15 11:20:00

I would like to read a true story about an actual contractor who builds a custom home for a would-be homeowner

A company in a suburb of Raleigh advertises custom built home for $60 a sq ft. (example 2000 sq ft home for $120,000)

They have been advertising for years so they must be making a profit.

Not 50 a sq ft but close

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Comment by MacBeth
2018-04-15 12:29:48

And the name of this company? I might give them a call…

 
Comment by oxide
2018-04-15 12:41:15

$60/sq ft modular doesn’t include land or site work.

 
Comment by Mafia Blocks
2018-04-15 12:51:16

Pick a name. We’re all building for that much.

 
Comment by BlueSkye
2018-04-15 12:59:23

The cost to build a standard house is about $35/ft2. Add the cost of a lot. Pay an extra $250K so that some one may make a profit.

 
Comment by Mafia Blocks
2018-04-15 14:00:54

Last week I put a bid package together for framing siding roof and windows for a 2800 square foot job. It was a whopping $39k and I still didn’t get the work.

 
Comment by MacBeth
2018-04-15 17:15:23

Mafia Blocks,

It’s interesting how often you tout real estate as a fraudulent business, when builders are just as corrupt as realtors.

You are robbing people blind, and pointing the finger elsewhere.

 
Comment by Mafia Blocks
2018-04-15 17:34:59

I don’t retail houses, new or used.

 
Comment by MacBeth
2018-04-15 18:42:04

“I don’t retail houses, new or used.”

Doesn’t matter. You build them and you charge one hell of a markup.

You say you can build houses at $50 sq ft. Okay. At what rate per square foot are you paid? $100 per? $125 per?

I bet it’s one hell of a lot more than you’re willing to state publicly.

If it is as I suspect, then you’re no better than a realtor.

 
Comment by Mafia Blocks
2018-04-15 18:45:06

I just gave you a recent example of cost.

 
Comment by BlueSkye
2018-04-15 19:05:43

MacBeth, I think you might have wandered off on this. He is selling the contract to do the construction, so he says above. $39K for the shell. Where do you get the idea he is involved in ridiculous added layers of markup to the end user?

 
Comment by BlackSwandive
2018-04-15 20:50:06

I got a bid a few years ago for a large pole barn. One company came in at $35,000 and I laughed out loud. I called a guy I know in another county and asked him for a bid. $15,000 and he would put his crew up in a hotel because he was two counties away. The size and materials were an exact apples to apples comparison, and the $15,000 guy does absolutely top notch work. Lots of gouging out there.

 
Comment by MacBeth
2018-04-16 03:15:48

MacBeth, I think you might have wandered off on this. He is selling the contract to do the construction, so he says above. $39K for the shell. Where do you get the idea he is involved in ridiculous added layers of markup to the end user?”

I saw what he wrote.

Media Blocks ought to be out of a job if that’s what he does. A thoroughly useless cost. His contracts and RFPs aren’t worth the paper they’re written on if all are subject to markups. It’s just more bs.

The cost of his salary gets passed on to the end user.

Pencil pushers and middle men are a huge waste of mine and everyone else’s money.

He is part of an industry neck deep in largesse.

Perhaps all of his $50/ hour comments over the years has been solely about contracts and shells? Don’t waste my time.

 
Comment by Jingle Male
2018-04-16 04:04:37

I just sold a lot to a buyer in the Sacramento foothills ($250,000). He is building a 3,200 SF house and just paid $92,000 for his building permit and associated fees. That is $28.75/SF

I think cost depends aomewhat on where you want to build. Rural Detroit: $40/SF. Suburban California: $150/SF.

 
Comment by Mafia Blocks
2018-04-16 05:31:26

Nonsense. Not in California New York or anywhere in the US.

Oakton, VA Housing Prices Crater 10% YOY

https://www.zillow.com/oakton-va/home-values/

https://snag.gy/m5EzRB.jpg

 
 
 
Comment by toby
2018-04-16 07:14:21

cost of just the lots in close in east austin are running about $30 a sq ft….. LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION…..

Comment by Jingle Male
2018-04-17 02:33:59

Exactly. The lot cost & permit fees for the one I just sold total $100/SF

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Comment by Ben Jones
2018-04-15 10:37:15

‘Coun. Jason Nault saw first-hand the effects of people purchasing properties as investments only to have them sit vacant. While waiting for his current house to be built, he rented a house in Colwood and said almost half of the other homes on the street were unoccupied for a majority of the year. He hopes that will change once the tax is implemented.’

‘There were no people living there and they were not people who contributed much to Colwood,’ he said. ‘I understand this might drive down in the short term prices of existing homes. They’re ridiculously priced as it stands.’

Comment by MGSpiffy
2018-04-15 14:02:53

Ben,

When I try to make a ‘back of the napkin’ assessment of housing in the USA as a whole (I’m interested in several areas, not sure King County), the whole occupancy/usage thing just stops me. The numbers I can get, or the lack of them, just won’t let any models I come up with add up.

Is there any reliable large scale info/stats out there that break down who owns and occupies homes across the country?

Some areas, like in Seattle/King Co where I live, I can see dominant factors like the location population boom, land usage restrictions and foreign buyers and make a model work, but in others - like the small rust-belt town I grew up in - I’m seeing 1) demographics - a population decline and greying for the city and surrounding area (one of the 2 elementary schools was just closed and sold to a private party), 2) median income - declining with no significant bubble of high paying jobs anywhere near by and 3) across the board run ups in listing prices that don’t jive with 1) and 2) so I’m looking for other factors - maybe a Blackstone like buying up of houses or something… as I can’t dismiss all the data points as outliers because there’s too many of them.

Thoughts?

Comment by BlueSkye
2018-04-15 14:37:31

4) Mania. Pervasive and insidious.

 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2018-04-15 14:39:26

Sounds like perhaps you didn’t include interest rate effects in your model?

Housing is priced like a bond; a decrease in rates implies an increase in prices.

Comment by Professor 🐻
2018-04-15 22:49:19

“Housing is priced like a bond; a decrease in rates implies an increase in prices.”

Conversely, a sizable increase in interest rates, such as has occurred since last year, implies a sizable decrease in home prices.

Exhibit A: Manhattan, NY, NY.

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Comment by MGSpiffy
2018-04-15 18:13:42

One would think…

not really. Let me give you some numbers that are typical-ish from where I grew up that cover only the last few years when rates have been similar to today’s:

Small town in midwest, 1-1.5 hours drive to nearest major metro area, population ~4000 - which is down about 15% from the 1980s. School district enrollment down ~30% from 1980s. Median household income stats for the county have had households ~45K/yr, individuals ~29K/yr .. +/- depending on year & source. Ignoring waterfront, there’s plenty of wooded/big lots still to build on and get hooked up to city utilities. No major industrial employers within 30 minutes drive - area peaked in the 1970s and suffered when the regional auto industry was gutted.

I’m tracking: The house my parents rented before I turned 10: 2 bedroom, 800 sq ft on .3 acres, built most likely 1940s.

Sold in 2014 for $35,000. Had been listed prior year for $25,000. Relisted twice before sold. By no means the cheapest sale in town - kinda typical as the majority of houses in city limits date from between 20-30s and early 70s I mentioned the sale to my father who still lives in the area and he said “$35K - Yeah I was going to say that’s an awful high price, but we were out walking one day I and I saw guys working on remodeling the interior of it”

Current Zillow Estimate: $86K - and that is not at all out of line with the asking/listing prices I am seeing on most listings in the town - and I am somewhat familiar with with or have even been inside many of these homes.

2 Doors down is the house a High School woodshop teacher lived and raised his kids in for 50+ years. It’s up for sale again, +35% asking price since 3 years ago when it sold last (guy died, then widow had to sell and go into care facility). I saw the previous listing - It was a nice piece of mid-century design, and well preserved and maintained by the industrious owner (his personal workshop rivaled the HS wood shop). The house has since been trashed by whomever bough it, and looking at the listing photos now it clearly needs $10’s of thousands in rehabbing to get the interior as livable as it was a few years ago (not to mention the pool).

Repeat some variation of the story for every other listing I have some personal knowledge of.

So I’m going WTF? - Interest rates haven’t changed plummeted compared to 2013/14/15 - There’s nothing going on employer-wise anywhere near town to bring in $$ Jobs, and the population continues to slowly shrink - yet listings are staying steady-ish and almost all show this rise in asking prices that I can’t figure out to justify.

I can make a justification for my buying on Mercer Island, but that relies on several things being outliers nationally, and still could be a big mistake on my part. I can’t begin to make a justification on these and other places I’ve lived before with any of the data I have.

Comment by MGSpiffy
2018-04-15 19:17:24

Gah. Messed up the blockquotes

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Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2018-04-15 20:56:08

So I’m going WTF? - Interest rates haven’t changed plummeted compared to 2013/14/15 -

True.

I can’t begin to make a justification on these and other places I’ve lived before with any of the data I have.

Bubble-think… It’s global, so it shouldn’t be a huge surprise to find it in your small town hometown.

 
 
 
Comment by BlackSwandive
2018-04-15 20:59:30

Keep in mind we are experiencing the return of the “fantasy listing,” where properties are priced at stratospheric levels so delusional that no buyer exists anywhere near the price. I just saw one the other day - 3 bedroom house on 5 acres in the middle of nowhere WA state asking $650,000. I thought I must be missing something, like there was a second house, a business included - something. Nope, just a person looking for a sucker, because those houses were $100,000 not many years ago.

Comment by MGSpiffy
2018-04-15 22:40:11

The retired lady (widow) we bought our house from just spent the last 5 months looking up and down western WA and OR for a new home - and the listings were, in her words, horrible (and she had a background in RE - worked for Windermere in Seattle for a couple decades) - no inventory, and crazy prices everywhere. She wound up finally buying a place about 45 min north of Portland for over 500k. In part she was settling, not able to find anything better.

It’s when you start going significant away from the frothy cities … and it’s still bonkers … that you realize something deeper is messed up.

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Comment by BlackSwandive
2018-04-16 00:06:07

“She wound up finally buying a place about 45 min north of Portland for over 500k. In part she was settling, not able to find anything better.”

And that’s where money goes to die. Once the bubble pops, nobody wants a house in BFE. The worst bubbles are not in Seattle, San Francisco or Los Angeles - they’re in places like Bend, Oregon and Reno, Nevada, where it’s 100% pure speculation with zero jobs to support the high prices.

 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2018-04-16 14:08:07

they’re in places like Bend, Oregon and Reno, Nevada, where it’s 100% pure speculation with zero jobs to support the high prices.

To the extent that the transplants moving to places like these are retirees, they are effectively bring a “job” with them—e.g. the persistent income provided by their retirement assets. That’s essentially a portable income/job.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Mortgage Watch
2018-04-15 11:10:59

Gulfport, FL Housing Prices Crater 9% YOY As Rental Rates Plunge

https://www.movoto.com/gulfport-fl/market-trends/

 
Comment by Mike
2018-04-15 11:22:10

Zillow is going into the flipping business Maybe this is the sound of the bell being rung?

Comment by Ben Jones
2018-04-15 11:27:33

I think so. I have an article on it I’ll probably post tomorrow.

 
Comment by oxide
2018-04-15 12:44:21

“Zillow will be working with Berkshire Hathaway and Coldwell Banker to make offers on homes before it finds a buyer.”

I wish this were illegal. Why should Zillow or some other hedgie get first crack at a house? Let them join the bidding game with all the other buyers. Otherwise, you’re just hoarding ice in a power outage.

Comment by BlueSkye
2018-04-15 13:03:33

It doesn’t need to be illegal, although hoarding the necessities of life for profit is immoral. It only needs to be unprofitable. The solution to that is very simple.

Comment by In Colorado
2018-04-15 13:28:42

although hoarding the necessities of life for profit is immoral

As someone remarked here the other day, first medical care became utterly unaffordable. Now housing is unaffordable. What’s next? Food?

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Comment by azdude
2018-04-15 14:04:37

HOUSING LOTTO

 
Comment by Mr. Banker
2018-04-15 14:11:46

“What’s next? Food?”

Just enough food to keep the hosts alive.

 
Comment by BlueSkye
2018-04-15 14:41:04

I think the Big Greed has already hit food silently. When speculators drove the price of oil over $100 the price of grain doubled and then the price of food doubled (very quickly). The price of food never came back down.

 
Comment by In Colorado
2018-04-15 17:07:09

Agreed. But I’m wondering how long until takes $1000 to fede a small family for a week

 
 
Comment by Professor 🐻
2018-04-15 22:54:31

Since buying of homes has degenerated into just another variety of Wall Street roullete, how about if Uncle Sam gets out of the housing price subsidy racket, and lets the free market determine values once again?

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Comment by MGSpiffy
2018-04-15 14:04:49

G*d d*mn - anything to maximize yield for all the money sloshing around, scorched earth on society be damned.

 
 
 
Comment by azdude
2018-04-15 13:45:35

there is over 5 trillion dollar of home equity on the sidelines! If you are not in on this housing lottery u deserve to be broke.

Comment by BlueSkye
2018-04-15 14:42:29

Does my meeting a mermaid at the lake offend you?

 
 
Comment by trader jack
2018-04-15 13:54:54

when I moved here in 1966 made $10,000 a year, bought a house for $25,000, and found a good doctor who charged $7.50 for an office visit. Now a doctor charges $150 for an office visit or 20 times as much.

So to match the varying costs I would have make about $200,000 per annum.
Now the home is worth about $600,000 so that is not out of line.

Comment by MacBeth
2018-04-15 14:01:48

How many of your neighbors make $200K per annum? Is one person making that $200K, or is it dual-income?

You need to keep posting here, trader jack. To give the rest of us needed perspective, if not more.

Comment by MGSpiffy
2018-04-15 14:07:02

There’s only a few places in the country, almost all HCOL metro areas, where more than an insignificant percentage of households make that much today… Are you in one of those places Trader Jack?

 
 
Comment by BlueSkye
2018-04-15 14:47:48

I started driving shortly after 1966. Gas was 30c/gal. Now it’s $3. No way your 50 year old house should be $600K.

 
Comment by Mortgage Watch
2018-04-15 15:00:26

Incorrect.

The long term metric is 2x annual income. Now housing is 5x annual income.

Comment by In Colorado
2018-04-15 18:33:39

Now housing is 5x annual income.

And that’s in “affordable” locales. Most of my dual income Santa Clara colleagues have mortgages 1 million and above. For the average Joe in Silly Valley prices are 10x or higher. It’s pure insanity. You can pay 1 million+ for a house in a slum.

 
 
 
Comment by MacBeth
2018-04-15 13:59:24

Here I am once again…bringing joy to one and all!

Toward that end, I invite you to take a look at this…1982 SPECIAL REPORT: “THE MALL”. Narrated by Charles Kurault, it celebrates malls.

You need not watch the entire 50 minutes (!), the first 5-10 minutes is sufficient to revisit the lunacy. Enjoy yourselves and before careful out there!

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=1982+mall+documentary

Comment by oxide
2018-04-15 14:59:07

My one Charles Kurault story: A small town was celebrating the grand opening of a local bookstore, and they had invited Charles Kurault to do a guest book-signing at the event.

So a bunch of people were in line at 9:45 am on Saturday morning waiting for the store to open to have their book signed by Kurault. Right about then, Kurault himself came strolling up the sidewalk to the store. He walked past half the line before he noticed that it was a line. He looked around, looked up toward the front of the line, stopped, got a puzzled look on his face. Finally, he innocently asked what the line was for. A young woman said “the line is for YOU, Mr. Kurault.” He was quite stunned. He said, “Me? Oh. I thought it was a new movie or something.”

(I was there, but I wasn’t in the line. I was just waiting for the store.)

Comment by Tarara Boomdea
2018-04-16 11:26:12

Quite the character.

The Double Life of Charles Kuralt

After Kuralt died in 1997 at the age of 62, Mrs. Charles Kuralt in New York City was shocked to discover that her husband had another family in Montana.

For 30 years, Patricia Elizabeth Shannon was his mistress and he was father to her children from a previous marriage paying for college and law school tuition.

Comment by rms
2018-04-16 14:26:35

Quite the character.

“He was making $6 million a year, so financing two families was not a problem.”

A generous husband/father too.

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Comment by Tarara Boomdea
2018-04-17 19:57:27

Big of him ;-)

 
 
 
 
Comment by azdude
2018-04-15 14:59:41

when home equity drys up so does frivilous shopping on overpriced cr@p.

went to panera bread today and paid 10 bucks for a sandwich that was about 6 ” long. Now I know why I never have been there.

Comment by oxide
2018-04-15 15:34:37

Malls aren’t dying because of home equity. When this mall documentary was filmed in 1982, there was a pretty bad recession and no housing bubbles and therefore no equity. But there were also lifetime union factory jobs that didn’t require college or college loans. That’s where the mall money is going.

Comment by MacBeth
2018-04-15 17:03:46

Malls died with the advent of the internet and cell phones.

Kids and women used to “hang out” at the mall, where they felt safe. It’s where people/kids would commune. Buying crap was part of the draw, but hardly the sole draw.

Kids were bored…they went to the mall. Kids were home alone after school and therefore isolated…so they went to the mall. Kids wanted to socialize…they went to the mall. There was no such thing as group chat, there were no cell phones, party lines meant staying at home…they went to the mall.

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Comment by MGSpiffy
2018-04-15 22:21:04

MacBeth - Totally agree.

Malls served a significant social function when I was a teen. My own kids could not care less about malls.

The flip side of the coin is that online shopping has proven so very superior to much of what used to be consummated in brick-and-mortar stores. Time saved, Money Saved, Travel Saved, Selection Expanded, Convenience out the wazoo.

Technology made the transformation inevitable.

 
Comment by In Colorado
2018-04-16 08:10:52

Agreed, shopping Malls were places to hang out on weekends and after school/work, even if you weren’t going to buy anything beyond a cinnabon, a CD or a T-Shirt, or maybe nothing at all.

Now we have “lifestyle centers”, outdoor malls where obese people drive up to the store where they want to shop, minimizing walking as much as possible. At the old school mall you’d park in the huge parking lot, hike to one of the mall entrances, then wall around the mall. It wasn’t much exercise, but it was something. Also a good place to get out of the heat in the summer.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Mortgage Watch
2018-04-15 14:56:34

Keller, WA Housing Prices Crater 15% YOY As Land Prices Plunge

https://www.movoto.com/keller-wa/market-trends/

 
Comment by oxide
2018-04-15 15:08:29

Look how skinny all those mall customers are. Not trim and fit; just plain skinny (but the mall cops are still fat!).

Soybean oil and high fuctose corn syrup…

Comment by Apartment 401
2018-04-15 15:55:40

Socialized medicine will never work in a country where 40% of the adult population is obese.

Comment by In Colorado
2018-04-15 17:03:20

And it keeps getting worse.

Comment by MGSpiffy
2018-04-15 22:24:53

Seriously - almost as if it was by design.

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Comment by In Colorado
2018-04-16 08:01:02

No kidding. It crosses my mind that if people die young from obesity related issues, they won’t collect 20+ years of social security and medicare.

 
 
 
Comment by Professor 🐻
2018-04-15 23:11:14

How about if we levy a fat tax? Having just felt like a robbery victim after paying this year’s taxes, I’m ready to experiment with solutions that will bring down costs, which a fat tax would do. Added benefit: Obesity would decrease along with health insurance costs and related taxes.

Comment by oxide
2018-04-16 05:51:35

A fat tax might work… but there are two major problems:

1.

Foods which are most fattening:
Corn (carbs, syrup and oil)
Wheat (addictive carbs)
Rice (carbs)
Soy (oil and soyboy compounds)
Cotton (seed oil)

Foods which are most subsidized:
Corn (carbs, syrup and oil)
Wheat (addictive carbs)
Rice (carbs)
Soy (oil and soyboy compounds)
Cotton (seed oil)

2.

Food lobby and farm states, especially first-primary Iowa.
Mike Bloomberg and Michelle Obama tried to educate about the food supply, and both were lambasted for it, daily. Good luck with a tax.

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Comment by Professor 🐻
2018-04-16 05:59:21

Point taken. Many good solutions never gain traction due to entrenched political interests standing in the way.

 
Comment by oxide
2018-04-16 08:14:31

A confounding issue that no one can agree on what makes people fat to begin with. Those skinny folks in the 1982 mall ate reasonable amounts of wheat and corn. Asians live off rice and stay thin. People have been eating wheat for 10000+ years and stayed skinny. The theory that obesity is caused by vegetable seed oils messing with metabolism (compounded by genetic susceptibility?) is just that — a hypothesis with very little research data to support it.

So we don’t even know what to tax. But one thing is plain, the “2000 calories/day” is utter nonsense, especially for women.

 
Comment by BlackSwandive
2018-04-16 09:05:44

People are just consuming too many calories. It’s not so much what you eat that’s the problem, it’s how much you eat. Every person has a different metabolic rate, and different caloric requirements. If you consume more calories than you burn a day, you will gain weight. If you consume less, you will lose weight. It’s very simple.

That being said, there are a lot of changes in our diets which prove problematic for a large portion of the population. As a Gen Xer, I wasn’t even allowed to eat fast food as a kid. I used to ask my parents if we could eat at McDonald’s and was told no every time. Some kids were allowed, and I remember a fat family back then who lived on takeout/fast food. They hardly ever cooked.

These days, you’d be hard-pressed to find a family who doesn’t eat fast food or at least eat out quite frequently. And the portions and type of food are unhealthy. A single meal could easily eclipse an entire day’s worth of calories, nevermind the sodium and sugars. Add in this new fad called “Starbucks” where a venti foofoo drink can ring up 400+ calories in a single serving and you can see where things go awry.

 
 
Comment by Taxpayers
2018-04-16 07:51:44

tax fat people

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Comment by In Colorado
2018-04-16 08:03:55

Don’t some communities already have such taxes? Soda tax, etc.? Has it made a serious impact?

Not to mention that the obese will scream oppression, discrimination and victimhood.

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Comment by jeff
2018-04-15 15:25:21

Once upon a time you dressed so fine
You threw the bums a dime in your prime, didn’t you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwOfCgkyEj0

Comment by Apartment 401
2018-04-15 15:56:50

I ain’t gonna work on Maggie’s farm no more.

 
 
Comment by Apartment 401
2018-04-15 17:31:29

Cycle of poverty has family of 7 living inside SUV in suburban Denver:

“A regular day for a family of seven in suburban Denver starts before sun-up. Mom tries at first gently, then more firmly, to urge her six children awake.

“Time to get ready,” Charice, who asked Denver7 not use her full name in order to protect her privacy, tells her children.

You might hear birds chirping outside and the groan of a 10-year-old who does not want to wake up. The difference is, these children did not wake up in warm beds. They have to put clothes and shoes on before they can even go to use the bathroom.

That is because all seven family members are living, with all the belongings they can carry, in a car.”

https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/front-range/denver/cycle-of-poverty-has-family-of-7-living-inside-suv-in-suburban-denver

UK Subs — I Live In A Car:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FxwEORDeng

Comment by Mafia Blocks
2018-04-15 17:56:25

Poverty, homelessness and crime makes realtors happy.

 
Comment by jeff
2018-04-15 19:12:58

Six kids living in a car. :(

 
Comment by rms
2018-04-15 20:02:16

The U.K. has mired itself deeply in debt. Finished!

“Music for the Funeral of Queen Mary”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9GrmokeHPY

 
Comment by nhtransplant
2018-04-16 10:38:43

I don’t know why I was so naïve as to assume a family of seven meant a father, a mother and 5 kids when I first started reading that story.

 
 
Comment by S-Crow
2018-04-15 17:36:02

IMHO Zillow will probably pull the plug on the the program after some transaction losses. The driver of the program IMHO is to continue the positioning of agents as a driver for revenue (referrals) to Zillow and has nothing to do with becoming an owner of real property. It’s to keep Redfin or others from potentially removing or reducing the selling side commissions as well. In addition, sellers must have equity for this to have any chance of working. Other than a quicker sale there is zero incentive for homeowners to sell under value to Zillow. With state excise or tansfer taxes along with other fees of which the real estate company is by far the highest expense, not withstanding repairs and improvements expenses, homeowners would have to take at least a 10% or more reduction in market value.

Now if Zillow is buying inventory from existing funds or institutional investors that are holding large pools of rentals in Phoenix and Las Vegas…..that might be financially more doable.

Comment by Taxpayers
2018-04-16 05:36:30

how does redfin make 1% work ?

 
 
Comment by Apartment 401
2018-04-15 17:42:56

MOAR music to end the weekend. Tame Impala — Keep On Lying:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE5bD54-ewg

The inane, female party chatter looped in the background is a fitting soundtrack for the collapse of the Australian housing bubble (Tame Impala is from Perth)…

Comment by Professor 🐻
2018-04-15 23:01:05

Sorry to be such a musical snob, but two chords and too repetitive…
can’t go there.

 
 
Comment by Professor 🐻
2018-04-15 23:05:58

“As housing sales dropped to the lowest level in five years, Metro Vancouver new home starts have soared in the first quarter of the year, with starts in Vancouver alone more than twice as high as during the same period in 2017.”

Never having worked in the home building industry, I have to ask: Where is the advantage of ramping up new home starts in the face of an epic collapse in demand?

Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2018-04-15 23:11:37

Where is the advantage of ramping up new home starts in the face of an epic collapse in demand?

From a builder’s perspective: last chance to build before the financing dries up?

 
Comment by Jingle Male
2018-04-16 04:21:02

They build houses to make a living. They believe the more you build, the more you make……and it is true, right up to the day it isn’t.

Comment by Mr. Banker
2018-04-16 05:04:22

… using money that isn’t theirs to sell to people who in turn use money that isn’t theirs.

An entire economy can be based on thousands of people sustaining themselves and thus sustaining an economy that uses money that isn’t theirs.

Comment by BlackSwandive
2018-04-16 07:42:22

And then you get 2008.

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Comment by Jingle Male
2018-04-17 02:36:36

Yes..every 10 to 20 years.

1990 peak
2007 peak
2024 peak??(

 
Comment by Carl Morris
2018-04-17 09:44:42

With nature not being allowed to run its course after 2007 I expect all natural frequencies to be thrown off going forward until the big reset.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Professor 🐻
2018-04-16 05:30:59

Beware of murderous minivans that entrap and suffocate their unsuspecting occupants. This is a prelude to the many stories of autonomous vehicular homicide you can expect once self-driving cars rule the road.

Trapped and dying in a minivan, desperate Ohio teen calls 911 for help that doesn’t find him
By Amanda Watts and Hollie Silverman, CNN
Updated at 6:44 PM ET, Sat April 14, 2018

 
Comment by Taxpayers
2018-04-16 05:35:03

the 3% escalator clause in com re.
10 yrs ago while helping a friend lease a new property we tried to get out of that clause, offering a DC area com RE index instead. NO DICE !
com RE has gone nowhere in those 10 years vs the 33% the rent has gone up.

 
Comment by Mortgage Watch
2018-04-16 05:58:28

North Palm Beach, FL Housing Prices Crater 12% YOY As Vacation Property Demand Collapses

https://www.movoto.com/north-palm-beach-fl/market-trends/

 
Comment by azdude
2018-04-16 06:38:13

When stock and home prices are going up that is called an economic recovery. Rising asset values are a must for the economy to prosper.

 
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