Do Many Other Boomers Want To Live The Simple Life?
Several readers suggested personal finances and homes as a topic. “Yesterday, there was a thread about boomers and their spending everything they earn. I would like to know if there are many other boomers like me (tail end - born in 1962). I finally got a house in a less bubbly area and I have no desire to ‘own’ all of the toys that go with it.”
“I just want to save money, pay off the house, and live simple. My cars are paid for, have several hundred thousand saved, absolutely abhor debt to the max, etc. Are there many others like me still left, or am I abnormal because everyone should own a Hummer, boat, exotic vacations, designer clothes, etc, and have big debt to go with it?”
A reply, “I never got into owning things. Maintaining them is too much trouble. I’ve never had a balance on my credit card, paid cash for all the cars I have ever owned (kept my Volvo 240GL for 20 yrs!), never had any debt other than a mortgage (sold house last year).”
Another said, “I’m a younger boomer and to answer your question, I feel exactly as you do. I also have a lot of friends around our age who do not fit the stereotypical ‘boomer’ description. Frankly, I think that the boomer generation is simply too large and spans too many years to categorize so easily.”
“My husband and I don’t own a home right now because we just moved and current home prices just don’t pencil out for us, but we’re paying for our apartment with earnings from our savings. And yes, I mean savings, not ‘housing windfall.’ You know, money put away after years of hard work.”
And another, “I’m a relatively early boomer (1949), and I don’t spend wildly. I live in a house that I bought for a little over 1x my salary at the time, refinanced a couple of years ago into a 5% 15-year fixed with no other debt of any kind. I drive a 17-year-old car to work every day and have a ‘new’ 5-year-old car and a 10-year-old truck. We have quite a bit of savings and conservative investments; if I got laid off tomorrow, we could pay our essential expenses for many years without too much difficulty.”
One said. “I’m 1961: We penny pinch and are proud of it, (and) there are plenty like us out there. I know a couple 8 years younger than us that are 3 years away from paying off their mortgage. (That means before 35 they own their home!) These people are not heirs but work and save very carefully.”
“That being said, I know what the boomer bashers are speaking of….I see that most younger boomers DO genuflect to the $$$$$ and image pressures.”
One from Nevada. “Lately, I see many more of those H3’s crusing around town here in Reno. It seems no one wants to make due,or are on any sort of budget. The ‘I wants’ brag about buying new clothes, furniture, cars, electronics etc…. and quirp ‘how much’ their houses are going up.”
“My husband and I - we like the simple life, we believe quality is more important an quanity, with no desire to have the ‘newest’ or ‘best stuff’ on the market. The sheeple are followers, and wont change their mindset until its forced upon them.”
The LA Times. “In Los Angeles County, foreclosure activity, homes entering some stage of the process, rose 5% from July to August, to 2,107 properties. It was the third hike in three months, according to RealtyTrac. In Orange County, the rate rose 9%, to 606 properties, in the same period, while Riverside and San Bernardino counties posted a steep 52% increase, to 2,717 properties.”
The Orange County Register. “A jump in the cost of Kelly Drexel’s Huntington Harbour home forced her back to work, instead of staying at home with her daughter, now 4, she said. The Drexels paid more than $1 million for the three-bedroom house in 2004. The cost jump came from swapping an interest-only loan for a traditional fixed-rate mortgage and from a spike in property tax after remodeling their kitchen and buying a boat dock, she said.”
“Her husband, a division manager for a construction company, was set to pay 50 percent of his salary on housing, she said. She doesn’t expect a lot of sympathy but still finds the high cost of housing frustrating. ‘I know a lot of people who own a lot more home than I do who paid a lot less,’ she said.”
“Joe Huizar said he and his wife are finding it tough to pay for their two-bedroom condo in Santa Ana, which they bought in 2004 for $280,000. Huizar and his wife owe $330,000 after refinancing to pay for upgrades and other bills. They owe $15,000 on credit cards, he said. ‘It’s a struggle each month,’ he said.”
“The Huizars considered sharing the master bedroom with their two daughters and renting out the other bedroom, but nixed the idea for the girls’ security, he said. ‘I think Orange County is getting worse,’ Huizar said. ‘There are high-rises going up. They are starting at $700,000. There is nobody in Santa Ana who can afford that.’”
The Union Tribune. “When Sarah Brooks decided to get her financial house in order, that’s exactly where she began: her home. The El Cerrito woman has been pondering whether to refinance her mortgage. She’s also considering selling the house within a few years. Compounding her worry are the dozen or so homes in her neighborhood that are already for sale, and not selling.”
“‘Those houses have been for sale for months, so who knows when I’ll be able to sell mine and go for a ’step-up’ house,’ said Brooks, who bought her home in 1990. ‘I need to do something.’”
“Some homeowners have been turning equity into cash, by way of refinancings, credit lines and second mortgages. ‘We try to encourage people to look at the larger picture, do they need that pool or new kitchen, or some toy they don’t have any business buying because they can’t really afford it?’ financial planner Jon Beyrer said. ‘People who don’t want to curb consumption or instant gratification need to understand that they don’t get a free lunch by doing this.’”
“‘A lot of people got in over their heads when they bought a home in the recent past,’ financial planner John Rossitto said. ‘They took some very aggressive loans with the mindset that they’d be able to change something in their circumstances before interest rates went up.’”
“One example was a hotline caller who had taken out an equity line of credit to assist her child in buying a condo, which in turn was financed with a negative amortization loan. ‘If they sell the property they’d lose money, because trying to sell a condo right now in this market is not fun,’ Rossitto said. ‘And staying with the current loan they lose money. In her particular situation, the best thing was to hang on and refinance.’”
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I’m Gen X. I have no interest in accumulating a lot of “stuff”. I only buy what I use/need. BUT, when I do buy, I like to always pay cash and I buy the BEST (High Quality) and i buy exactly what I want - never depriving myself. BUT I make sure I get use out of it. “Selectively extravagent and prudently frugal.”
I was born in 1958, grew up in the SF Bay Area and finally gave up trying to buy a house there in 1994. Moved north, bought a place, got divorced, met a wonderful woman, bought another place. I have no idea how much it’s worth - I guess maybe $450K? ; all we care about is the mortgage balance (275K and dropping). The land had a very funky (ride the toilet through the floor) doublewide on it; when we couldn’t refinance, we put a triple-section on it. Nothing particularly fancy. We owe $2K on my wife’s car, pay $400 a month extra on the (fixed-rate) mortgage, and both put 15% into our 401(k) accounts. We’re not particularly high-income. Neither car is fancy; we don’t go to Europe for vacation, and my son is raised. Both of us started over with almost nothing (I moved north in 1994 with $2K in savings). Time and determination do great things.
Arrest this couple and shoot them. Der Bush says spend, spend, spend. Der Greenspan says get an ARM or I/O. They sound like they are unAmerican don’t you think??? hehehehehehehe
My husband and I are Gen Xers, too (1968 and 1971). We work very hard and are very careful with our money. I think a lot of people our age, early 30s, worked and saved and just when it was our turn to have the American Dream…it was stolen from us by speculators and investors and greed. I’m not sure that I’ll ever recover from the bitterness and anger I felt in the summer of 2005 when we were approved for a quarter of a million dollar home loan, and couldn’t find anything NOTHING worth buying. All that was available were houses worth less than $100,000 only two years prior. The realtor told me that I had sticker shock and I’d better get over it or we’d be priced out forever. So we still rent. I’m not a Boomer hater, after all some of the people I love the best are Boomers–my parents, my in-laws. But on my on my worst days, it does feel like they used up the whole American Dream and didn’t leave any for us.
Yah, everybody’s a victim right?
Get over it.
??? - txchick - why the anger? Sounds to me like a pretty legit gripe.
I had the same feeling back in 2000 even, when I bought in CA. The area I was in already in a bubble state, having already experienced about 80% gains in 4 years. My wife and I got lucky and were able to afford a place; mainly because we got lucky in timing some stock options before the tech bubble burst. Still though, even with that luck we got much less of a house that we hoped for - a small place on a really busy street that needed a lot of work (sold “as is”).
BTW, we’re also Gen-Xers - ‘67 and ‘68.
Yea,
I sympathize too, but I get Txchick’s reaction. The line
” I’m not sure that I’ll ever recover from the bitterness and anger I felt in the summer of 2005 when we were approved for a quarter of a million dollar home loan, and couldn’t find anything NOTHING worth buying”
is simply over the top. The market has been insane and frustrating and it will change. That statement implies a sense of entitlement to ownership that is a recipe for unhappiness. None of us gets everything we want when we want it.
I was a strapping buck in my 20s, could benchpress a house and run sub six minute miles all afternoon, and recite Goethe too, but my wife to be did not arrive until my mid 30s. I am damn thankful it turned out that way. Now I am early middle aged and a mere mortal, but thankful. Whining is never a good strategy, because nothing is so debilitating (or annoying) as the victim mentality.
I was a strapping buck in my 20s, could benchpress a house and run sub six minute miles all afternoon,
because nothing is so debilitating (or annoying) as the victim mentality. because nothing is so debilitating (or annoying) as the victim mentality
Bragging ranks right up there.
Yea,
An annoying post,true. I was trying to make some point for Shaunti’s benefit, but got lost in a self-congratulatory reverie.
She’s only a victim if she drank the kool-aid and bought the overinflated house. This is a massive boom/bust cycle. Oil is the same way. During the boom cycle older wells and higher cost wells are restarted to cash in the oil for the high BOOM price. In the end it creates a large supply and then of course goes into the bust mode.
In a way (I don’t blame boomers) the loosey-goose easy money and low interest rates have spurred boom times for builders who of course have way overbuilt (to cash in on the easy money, just like oil) leading to a massive oversupply of homes. Prices will come down and hopefully will present a real buying opportunity for households that are just looking for a place to live. Reality has really set in on housing. But, I think there are still people speculating on housing. Scary.
“Everyone’s a victim. Get over it.” My sentiments exactly, TxChick. The pathological victimization [and the industries that feed off of it] are the main obstacles toward restoring some sort of balance and functionality to our sick society.
I agree with TxChick — there were as many 20-something smart-ass flippers in this part of Florida as there were Boomer flippers. Greed has no age boundaries. Patience will be rewarded not just financially, but also in the satisfaction of watching your contrarian approach trump the FBs’.
Chip (and Txchick),
I’ve seen AT LEAST as many 20’s and 30s buying in recent years. Most of the Boomers I know already owned by the time this thing got going. To be honest, most of the recent buyers in our area have been immigrants, not even American Gen-X or Boomers. Immigrants seemed to be buying primary residences while the Gen-X and Y’s were buying spec property. That’s what I’ve seen.
This “generational warfare” is silly. It has nothing to do with generations, but with EASY money and unrestrained immigration policies.
This too shall end.
If you grew up in the Bay Area, got a 5% raise each year and watched housing go up 10%, you’d have some empathy for Shaunta. $250K will buy a nice place in Portland (though wages are about 30% less than in the Bay Area).
Shaunta please hang in there - and realize that right now you can rent a much nicer home than you can buy for. Give yourself about 3-4 years probably, then see how the market is - chances are you’ll be able to finally get a good home - probably better even than before this boom began. Keep an eye on foreclosures - there will be some really nice ones out there. There already are actually, but in a couple of years the selection will be much greater and the homes much cheaper. Also it may help to be willing to relocate - 250K will actually still buy a decent home in places like NC, upstate NY, etc., before prices start coming down.
Oh…we’re hanging in
And leaving Vegas next summer for a small Nevada town.
And geesh txchick…what crawled up your butt? Seems like maybe I’m not the one that needs to get over something.
I am a Gen X’er too and I agree wih TxChick sentiments. Have a family that I would love to have in a house but am not buying at these prices here in SFV. If folks want to live in a house so bad, hey, you can always rent one. Rents are still reasonable.
And, please, show me where in the Constitution (or any law of the land, for that matter) it says that every American must dream of owning a home and there dream must come true.
Seriously, folks, stop blaming someone else and get busy to find a solution that makes sense for your situation.
I never said I’m blaming anyone. Damn. And obviously, since I’m not living in a cardboard box or with my parents…we are renting. If we bought our house, our mortgage would be more than twice our rent.
Take a deep breath. Man. It’s not a constitutional right to own a home. I’m not an idiot. BUT it has been pretty normal, for the past several decades, that if you work hard and earn close to the median income, you can buy a house. Forgive me, please, for being slightly shaken when it became personally obvious that is no longer the way our country works.
I’m in a similar situation as shaunta being a gen-xer essentially priced out of the market. I’m starting to see how market forces are literally forcing me out of LV and I’m beginning to consider other places to live where possibly my dollar holds a little more weight. The muni I work for already has a hard enough time recruiting people for technical/engineering professions and the bubble has made it even more so. That goes for about every position including police and fire as well. Wages have stalled for 2 years and theres less and less incentive to live here(casinos?). Oh well, guess vegas will be a city of geriactrics in 10 years…or it will shrivel up due to lack of water or high fuel prices.
People your own age “stole” your “dream.” You need to get past the Snively Whiplash cartoon character type villanization thing.
Give me a break.
TXchick may be upset because Texas real estate never booms, their taxes are high, and George W. Bush “came” from there. I agree, Shaunta… sounds like a personal problem to me, with a couple of these people. Maybe they’re jealous of your youth. I never heard you say word one about anyone handing you anything.
TXChick ain’t balanced. That’s obvious to many.
Another cat fight…
“TXChick ain’t balanced. That’s obvious to many.”
Yeah, maybe, but I think what’s really pissing everyone off is that she is often right. You just don’t like the tone.
Yes,
This boomer topic is a wicked thread, but I would be lying if I said I was not enjoying it.
I will not agree the assessment that younger folks are pricing out their peers. Bay Area boomers are sitting on Ashland, OR so badly that very few working stiffs starting up can afford to live here anymore. Just about everyone new seems to be coming with a boatload of equity from starting prebubble in overpriced markets. And nearly all the building in the last few years has been upscale McMansions. It is definitely depressing for the rest of us, but I still do not think it merits whining.
Personally, I am hoping the specuvestor run for the hills will improve things here. It seems that not all boomers are greedhounds or fabulously wealthy, so I am guardedly optimistic for the future.
The specuvesters in your area, and all other areas, will eventually run for the hills. This is part of the reason that I am looking forward for this housing down cycle to proceed on a nation wide basis, it will rectify many things.
Another important note about younger FB’s and specuvestors: Who’s telling them to buy? Often times it’s their boomer parents.
Every younger buyer I know was pressured into the situation by someone older. And they wouldn’t listen to me, because I’m just a peer.
hormones sheesh
You know what’s gonna happen soon Shaunta. It’s already happened to me after reading this blog for a while. Instead of remembering 2005 with dismay you should soon start to sense a dawning realization of the value of your independent thinking. That summer you made a choice that faced reality instead of moving with the crowd. That course of action in 2005 kept you from an awful lot of pain. How many of your peers wish they could trade places with you.
CarrieAnn,
Nice post-thanks.
Thank you CarrieAnn. And you’re very right.
“…you should soon start to sense a dawning realization of the value of your independent thinking.”
Sounds like y’all been seeing psychotherapists lately. Have a little backbone and realize the “value” of your independent thinking a little closer to the actual moment it happens - shouldn’t have to wait two years for a little self-confidence.
posted “And geesh txchick…what crawled up your butt? Seems like maybe I’m not the one that needs to get over something.”
For Christ’s sake…. a little on the thin skined side?
Probably. And not used to being talked to like this. It’s funny with the internet–you can’t read inflection, just words. I’ve never been called a whiner or a victim before. So maybe it blindsided me.
Don’t sweat it Shaunta,
You just caught the sharp side of Txchick’s tongue-not the first either. We all hit a klinker now and then. Note my strutting, ridiculous first post in this thread. The only real sin,it seems, is to take your positions, or the barbs too seriously.
Boo Freakin’ Hoo. I’ve spent enough time in countries where people work their fingers to the bone and still barely earn enough to eke out the barest subsistence living in a rented hovel, to feel any sympathy for whiney hiney-holes who wail about their Princess-and-a-pea sized problems in here. I also know too many people who came to this country with nothing, and through sheer hard work and determination became success stories despite the odds.
Are the fat times over? Yeah, so it would seem. So here’s a novel idea: ADJUST. Every crisis also brings opportunity. As far as boomer-bashing, yeah, I tend to view them as the most worthless generation this nation has ever raised up, with few exceptions. And yes, an awful lot of this country’s problems can be laid at their account. But all we can do now is not emulate them in their greed, selfishness, and utter disregard for subsequent generations.
Sammy
Now, now, let’s count the boomers’ contributions to our country: the lost the war in Vietnam, couldn’t even raise their own children without drugging them on Ritalin, half destroyed our republic with their own breed of limo-liberalism, and now are ready to rape their children to pay for their social security / retirements. Great group of people.
Boomers didn’t “lose the war in Viet Nam”: the US government did that for us. I didn’t have any children, but if I had, I wouldn’t have put them on Ritalin. I’ve never been a liberal of any kind, limo- or otherwise; I’m an anarchist. And as for “Social Security”, I don’t count on it for anything, although I have been paying into it since I was 18.
Other than that, I agree with you.
I agree, most peak boomers like me (1955) having paid in to SS since they were 16 have no confidence in the system.
US government - “by the people”.
I get tired of people pointing the finger at the government. Are you one of the types that doesn’t vote, too?
Yah, Washington/Wall St. takes a poll from us boomers en masse before taking action. Hello? Can we deal with reality here?
posted “Now, now, let’s count the boomers’ contributions to our country: the lost the war in Vietnam, couldn’t even raise their own children without drugging them on Ritalin, half destroyed our republic with their own breed of limo-liberalism, and now are ready to rape their children to pay for their social security / retirements. Great group of people. ”
Oh Good Grief! Too simplistic to comment on.
So Sammy boy, what’s your story? Let’s hear your tale of self-made millions!
Allah Akbar!
agree - “So here’s a novel idea: ADJUST”
I think we Americans are spoiled through and through. If truely hard times are coming, then so many won’t be able to cope. Many are afraid to work hard in this country. That’s the reason we have get rich infomercials and the reason for this bubble - lazyness and greed.
Shaunta
It is much more difficult for the younger generation to get a ‘Foothold’. But, I was born in Indiana and reports still come my way that you can still get a home in the country side around Muncie for less than 80K. Of course there in NO work for you.
LOL…Indiana here we come! We’re leaving Las Vegas for a rural Nevada town. Still overpriced, so we’re waiting it out, but much more affordable.
I understand your desire to own a house, but this bitterness toward boomers is beyond annoying. Many boomers grew up in difficult circumstances — all of the openness and freedom that exists today didn’t exist then — and you get to have it now because the Boomers made it happen (e.g. women’s movement, convictions of child molestors). Also, putting kids thru college is an astronomical financial endeavor now. I worked part-time when I was going to college, my father paid for my room and board. Tuition was so inexpensive that it didn’t even count (this was at UC Berkeley!). When I went to grad school at MIT I had already worked 5 years, I got a scholarship and I paid for everything myself, not a nickel from my parents. Of course not !!!since I was an ADULT in my 20s. I see the younger people now still living at home some of them dipping their toes in a college class or two a semester but generally majoring in World of Warcrack and I feel bitter that these “kids” are sucking their boomer parents dry of any retirement savings and I, the boomer who saved, will be paying for their failures. End of whining. Happy face again
I see the younger people now still living at home some of them dipping their toes in a college class or two a semester but generally majoring in World of Warcrack and I feel bitter that these “kids” are sucking their boomer parents dry of any retirement savings…
Um, it sounds like you are answering your own question. School is f-ing expensive now, and a degree is no guarantee of even being able to pay rent in many areas. Kids are hanging around because there isn’t much out there for many of them.
Bring back the days when a kid can leave high-school and start a family in a modest neighborhood without being surrounded by crack-heads and illegals, and you won’t see many kids living at home.
1. The women’s liberation movement began in the mid-19th century with the Seneca Falls Convention. Ever hear of Susan B. Anthony, the person credited with enfranchsing women? She wasn’t a Boomer.
How about Rosie the Riveter, i.e. the archetype of the woman who went to work in a factory while her husband went off to war, thereby proving that women were as capable as men? Rosie was a member of the WWII generation.
Typical Boomers. Always taking credit for reforms made while they were still in diapers. They do this with the Civil RIghts Movement, too. Brown v. Board of Education was decided in 1954, when the very oldest Boomer was 8 years old. Rosa Parks refused to leave her seat on the bus in 1955, when the oldest Boomer was 9. Etc., etc. Yet the Boomers are always taking credit for liberalzing society.
2. Kids stay at home with their parents because they can’t afford to move out. What 20-something WANTS to live with his parents? No one wants to do that. How are you supposed to bring a girl home to your parents’ house? Entertain? Do your own thing? You can’t, it’s impossible.
Boomers really don’t get it.
3. Child molesting was always illegal. It may have increased due to the sexual immoraltiy of the Boomers, but I don’t think that molesting kids was legal in the 1950’s until the Boomers came along and finally put a stop to it.
posted “3. Child molesting was always illegal. It may have increased due to the sexual immoraltiy of the Boomers, but I don’t think that molesting kids was legal in the 1950’s until the Boomers came along and finally put a stop to it.”
They did not start it or stop it. With the advent of first radio in the 1920’s then most homes having TV from the 1950’s untill today with most homes having computers, information and subject matter has been moving faster and faster. It mearly outted what sadly, has been common for all times.
I guess I don’t get it as I am still trying to see the post boomer generation’s great contributions to society.
Well, a great deal of the WWW was and continues to be built by Xers, and Xers are also proving to be much more attentive parents.
Me? I don’t get angry with boomers because of mistakes they might have made when they were younger. I get angry with them when they vote for fascist cowboys.
I have to say: This thread is the low point on ben’s (otherwise) excellent blog.
Sweeping generalizations of people’s behavior based on the year of their birth ranks right up there with Chinese astrology. (I’m a Rabbit; maybe I was supposed to write an entry like this.)
I don’t know how/why/when the above mode of communication started passing for rational discourse, but the fact that it occured here on this blog is a sad indicator for the country.
“I think a lot of people our age, early 30s, worked and saved and just when it was our turn to have the American Dream…it was stolen from us by speculators and investors and greed.”
I can equate with these feelings, but since the taxpayers are on the hook for the GSE(s), the blame is better placed at the feet of our regulators who should do a better job of managing (protecting) the general public. OTOH, in a country that doesn’t manufacture goods like it once did, how are we supposed to get ahead unless we are screwing someone else? Bottom line, the world is not a nice place, and some places are worse…much worse…than others. In closing, consider yourself fortunate since you are not in hoc up to your eye balls in a flimsy mortgage; many others in your age cohort have destroyed their futures in this financial scam.
I consider myself very very fortunate…for not being the last greater fool on a crapbox in Vegas…for living in a country where not being able to find a house to spend $250,000 on is a big problem.
> the taxpayers are on the hook for the GSE
Legally, they are NOT on the hook, and the GSEs should go down without a penny of government subsidy. Politically, the taxpayers might be tricked into paying trillions, but maybe we can skip that, because the federal debt is already overwhelming.
Don’t sweat it Shaunta. I felt the same anger in 1987 when the early boomers’ bubble forced the late boomers like me out the the market. And I watched prices drop 40% by 1992. Rented until 1996. Bought at the absolute bottom of the present bubble.
Bingo! It’s all about timing now.
Yes…and I’m so glad that when I say that to my parents-siblings-friends now, they don’t look at me like I’ve lost my mind.
It was all about timing when I was sitting on the fence in the ’70s. I could have bought the cheapest house at around $34k. I hesitated and lost. I was born in 1952. I saved and waited. In 1987, I bought a major fixer for $110k. This is in north Orange County, CA. In between, I was very angry, resentful, and bitter. I can truly empathize.
Property now paid off and present value around $600k. Didn’t plan for it to appreciate that much. If we sell it and buy another, our tax base will rise substantially.
Dilemma for us, but the high price is an even bigger problem for younger buyers. Please try to be patient and monitor the market. I thought I was priced out forever, but I eventually got my window of oppoptunity. I hope, for the psychological and financial health of the country, that many buyers will see their windows open soon.
posted “Don’t sweat it Shaunta. I felt the same anger in 1987 when the early boomers’ bubble forced the late boomers like me out the the market.”
Now, Now lets be fair! This board is full of all types, and ages, getting screwed. What about the “pinebox twins?” and the old folk…. no fool like an old fool.
I have been using the term Baby Doomers. They are soon going to be doomed, especially, in their retirement years.
For those who take interest in generational cycles, The Forth Turning by Staruss and Howe is a good read. Baby Doomers were destined to lead to Doom when they are in power, as is the case sonce Klinkton.
A boomer age, but not part of the crowd,
Jas Jain
That’s ok. If the Dems take over the House, Rangel and Pelosi want to roll back all the Bush tax cuts. If you want ,just mail in any raises you got in the past 3 yrs to the Dems. If you’re retired ,they are going to means test Social Security so they can take care of the illegal aliens who are invading. Forget SDI or Medicare protection, it goes to the crack hos and illegals as well.
Craps and Cons are equally bad, just in dofferent ways. Pox on both their parties. The Two-Party system has turned into a Scam.
Jas Jain
“Rangel and Pelosi want to roll back all the Bush tax cuts.”
Hey, Pismo Bear, just got back from the Marina at Marina del Rey, CA…its an absolutely beautiful, sunny, warm day in Los Angeles, and you could count on 1 hand the number of
boats and yatchs out of the docks. The boat business is booming, while the homeless population is estimated at 40,000 a night. So, based on your strategy, tax cuts for the rich to buy boats they don’t use, and starvation for the poor, because they are to dumb to have an advocate in the White House.
I would recommend a biography of Marie Antionette and Louie the XVI and see how this plays out.
Don’t even get started with Social Security. Why should I even pay SSI when I know that I’m going to get stiffed? You bet they should means test Social Security. Why should your generation get full benefits and not mine? People need to wake up and see that Social Security is a welfare program, regardless of how they dress it up, and there is no reason for my generation to subsidize the retirements of those who don’t even need it. Selfish to the end. Why does the president promise “no cuts in benefits” to those who are retired or about to retire? Why shouldn’t they take the hit too?
Because they vote. In large numbers.
Social Security is my primary reason for leaving the workforce in 2000. (I am a boomer, 1960 vintage.) All of my income is now long term cap gains and dividends, not subject to the SS tax; and my ROTH IRA has lifetime tax free cap gains and dividends.
SS is nothing more than a Ponzi scheme. Since its inception, the state has been relentlesly increasing benefits with more “benefits categories” to the point that SS is no longer a supplement for the private retirement system (its primary mission). It has become an unwielding self-serving bureaucracy, a product of the two party political system, and will eventually implode from its own weight. (USPS, GM, FORD; all are other examples of self-serving bureaucracies that will also become toast.)
IRS W2-form working boomers of my vintage will be wise to plan for a retirement where SS will not be at the centerpiece. (SS never was intended as the centerpiece to begin with; is not now, and never will be.)
“Rangel and Pelosi want to roll back all the Bush tax cuts.”
- You heard that on Fox News this morning. I heard the same thing and now I here the same thing from the Fox News kool-aid drinkers. There is no originality anymore.
What? They want a reasonable tax policy to help pay off the wars Bush started so our children and grandchildren won’t be burdened with insane debt? They want to actually pay for our bloated defense budget instead of borrowing every last penny from China and Japan? I might not get another $300 check from Bush and billionaires might have to scale back from platinum to gold fixtures on their mega-yachts? The horror!
What tax cut? Is there anyone on this board who isn’t paying the Alternative Minimum Tax? If you’re paying AMT, you didn’t get any tax cut.
Meanwhile, the total Republican control of the federal government since 2001 has added $3 trillion to the national debt and who is going to pay that? Probably not the boomers because we are a very large demographic group and we will demand more and better services in our old age. My younger brother told me about hearing a finance interview on the radio that speculated there will be changes in the tax code to allow tax free withdrawals from IRA/401-K type savings in order to appeal to boomers politically.
Personally, I’m not for any of that but I do feel so frustrated that younger people are buying this “Republicans will keep taxes low” nonsense when the Republicans are piling up debts that you folks will have to pay and using your future money to buy votes. That Medicare prescription drug program is a ridiculous giveaway of working people’s money to buy votes.
I’m not paying the AMT. I live in a low-tax state, have a relatively small mortgage, and take the standard deduction, because it’s larger than if I itemized. So I personally have gotten a tax cut.
However, that doesn’t mean I support the insane monetary and fiscal policies of this administration, because I don’t. The only benefit I can see from their lunacy is that they may take the whole fiat money system down with them. That would be an excellent result in the long run, although not much fun for most people (to put it mildly).
If the tax roll-back is a problem for you, then you must be making more than $250,000; in which case, cry me a river.
It’s more than salary. I make a lot of money, pay the AMT, but work for a company with no pension plan or retirement benefits. I have to save enough to afford my retirement, including health benefits. You can stuff only so much into a 401k and IRA. I’d rather make 70% of what I’m making and get a pension and medical insurance in retirement. My point being, making a lot of money doesn’t make you rich. You have to take everything into account.
Talk about a state of denial. Yes, Bush has been wonderful for the country and Klintoon is the cause of all of our current problems.
Sheesh, give me a break! This crazy Fox/Rush brainwashing is half the problem if you ask me. People have lost the ability to think logically. All they can do is parrot stupid talking points that have no real meaning.
posted “A boomer age, but not part of the crowd,”
Jas, you answered your own question. Me either DOB 1953 here. I got a small pile and work 1 day a week, well really work as I recall it. The waste my time dribbling on this place.
Mass market, middle-class home ownership is only a recent deal here in the USA. Started in 1949. Before that mainly affluent, upper class, farmers, and business owners in town owned their own place. Most rented. Boomer parents and early boomers live through the best economic period in USA history 1946-73 (and probably going forward). Got a bit of a second wind in 1983-2000. Now, I doubt those good times are coming back for the masses in the USA. So it’s going to be more difficult going foward for most, regardless of age and perhaps especially for boomers who made retired assumptions under the old rules (pension, SS) and may well find them gone or worthless when they need them.
Well, with the oversupply, prices will come down and it will be more afforable again.
HOWEVER, we could be entering a long period of deflation (longer than 3-5 years) like the period from 1869-1896 where for a whole generation property values fell slowly. So buy in 2010, may well still lose money. Buy in 2015, may still lose money. Figure your house as a consumable.
OTOH, if the Fed decides to blow it out…inflation will roar ahead and debt (assuming you can service it in economic difficult times) could be a good thing.
It really is a hard call over anything past the next 2-3 years.
“Mass market, middle-class home ownership is only a recent deal here in the USA. Started in 1949.”
What about Mass market, middle-class retirement? This is a recent deal here on planet Earth. It started in the last century.
Before then, how did the masses retire? I know life expectancies where not that long, but for those who lived to a ripe old age, how did they survive their senior years? Very interesting topic for discussion; how society survived without SS or Welfare or Food stamps, particularly those unable to work because of advanced age or medical reasons.
I think they had savings accounts back then.
I’m with you Shaunta. These crazy boomers destroyed more than the American dream for a lot of people. The good news is they are going to get their asses handed to them on the way down too.
But Boomers are like locust.
Comment by Joe Momma
Being a Blue Blood Boomer. I would like to rebut your comments. First just like for the Xers or whatever life was and is filled with choices. Has a person I made mine and you have made yours. In some ways you sound like a person that made similar decsions when I was your age.
I do not think it’s about generations. Its about old or young self-asorbed, dumb, assholes. Its more like the ageless “Ant and Grasshopper” story.
“I’m not a Boomer hater, after all some of the people I love the best are Boomers–my parents, my in-laws. But on my on my worst days, it does feel like they used up the whole American Dream and didn’t leave any for us. ”
68 and 71 puts you at 38 and 35. Hardly young enough to blame another generation for the $hitfest we’re in.
It’s not my fault that Gen-xers are in their 30s now. Time marches on. And we’re 37 and 34
And we’re 37 and 34
That still is not “early thirties”
You’re right. Sorry about that. My brain doesn’t want to compute “35.” LMAO
There is a good book out which talks about the coming conflicts between generations called “The Coming Generational Storm”.
With Medicare & Social Security coming to a head in the next ten years its gonna be brutal.
http://www.amazon.com/Coming-Generational-Storm-Americas-Economic/dp/0262112868
Read it. Liked it. Made me want to kill my parents, though.
Now that was funny. The first laugh in this thread.
Indeed!
“My husband and I are Gen Xers, too (1968 and 1971). We work very hard and are very careful with our money. I think a lot of people our age, early 30s, worked and saved and just when it was our turn to have the American Dream”
Sorry to break it to you, but you’re no longer in your early thirties…
Well…I am by the skin of my teeth. My hubby’s an old guy I guess. Mid-30s then. Whatever.
Shaunta,
There are a lot of people out there like you; hard working and frugal who have not been able to buy in the last 5 years. I’m a late boomer(’62). Only reason I was able to buy is because I relocated to a different county and commuted 85 miles (one way) to work. And I had a 30yr fixed loan. I thought, it’s insane that I cannot afford to buy where I work; I earn more than my father ever did. But I certainly don’t blame anyone for it. Life is what it is. Your job is to work with what you have and make the best of it. I too was in that “American dream” mindset. It isn’t always what it’s cracked up to be. You should be relieved. Now, many people who were not smart enough to resist the urge to stretch beyond their means will discover how quickly this “dream” of theirs can become their worst nightmare.
posted ” I’m not sure that I’ll ever recover from the bitterness and anger I felt in the summer of 2005 when we were approved for a quarter of a million dollar home loan, and couldn’t find anything NOTHING worth buying.”
I am sure that was not fun, but life can deal much worse. You will find a good place in the next year or two.
Uummm….Since when is not swinging and stiking out at ball four such a nasty thing to be bitter and angry about? You should be happy!
Also, I know several people in my age group who bought into the whole “buy now or be priced out forever” threats…not speculator’s, just Gen Xers who wanted to raise their family in a home they own…and they of course have added to the whole bubble problem. There was no talking them out of it. I’m afraid we’ll have the last laugh, which is just sad, sad, sad in many ways.
I was born in 1982, and I don’t ascribe to the American Dream. I don’t see the value of having children, or owning a house. I currently am single, and I rent. The obvious advantage is financial security. I have more time for my hobbies, and I am set to retire early and quite comfortably. Leveraging yourself over the eyeballs is going to keep you from ever being on the plus side of wealth.
Well…not me. We aren’t leveraged at all. We rent and we have very little personal debt. We do have three kids.
don’t see the value of having children, or owning a house
You will never see the “value” to having kids until you have one.
posted ” I don’t see the value of having children”
I am just sorry your parents didn’t feel the way you do.
LOL! That was funny. Actually I don’t plan on having my own children either, however, I do see the value of children as I have a niece that I adore. I hope to adopt someday as opposed to having my own. The key is finding a husband who feels the same way.
As for all the boomer/gen xyz bashing, what’s the point. You can find greed and graditude in every generation. (Perhaps an exception can be made to those who lived through the depression who are generally very grateful people).
If you are on this site, regardless of generation, you are one step ahead of everyone else. You have taken the materialistic/consumerist blinders off and took a look around you and realized what a sham it all is. Endless spending and increasing household debt is something you have decided is not in your best interest. Put away the blame and enjoy the knowledge that you and those on this site know what’s going on now, see what’s down the road and will prepare for it. I’m a gen xer myself but I blame no one for what I have or don’t have. Blame is a game that cannot be won.
posted “LOL! That was funny. Actually I don’t plan on having my own children either”
For what it is worth. Do it the old fashion way. You will do all the heavy lifting and the worry’s, trial’s and tribulations. Either way they will be yours…. when you come out of the other end of the wormhole it will be worth it. Everything else you do in life will pale.
Well, that’s fine and you’ve every right but hopefully, most people will have a different take on life or things would come screeching to a halt.
I can’t help thinking that these low mortgage rates are a big part of the insane run up in house prices. When we bought our first home in 1980, we were lucky to get into a state mortgage program at 10.75%; on the market, rates were as high as 16%. Jimmy Carter lost the election over those mortgage rates. But starter houses where we wanted to live, Nassau County, Long Island were going for less than $50,000. Today, they go for $300 - $400,000 which is absurd. The worst of the run up has been since 2000.
I have observed that some people have no business having children. Some people can be very rotten with children.
I do not believe that everybody should have children, and I do not criticize those who do not wish to have children. Having children should be a matter of choice, not a matter of society pressuring people to do something for which they either are not equipped to handle, or do not want to be bothered with. Both scenarios are not good for the kids.
We’re just a couple of years too old to be considered “boomers,” but my wife and I realized it would be best to downsize our lifestyle a long time ago. Once the Feds changed the rule on capital gains on one’s residence, each subsequent house we bought cost less than the one we sold. We left Florida and found a low cost of living area that is very attractive to us, and we own this house free and clear in our retirement.
We have no debts and we believe there’s enough saved and invested to outlast us. But of course you can never be sure.
The Orange County Register. “A jump in the cost of Kelly Drexel’s Huntington Harbour home forced her back to work
- The Drexels paid more than $1 million for the three-bedroom house
- The cost jump came from swapping an interest-only loan for a traditional fixed-rate mortgage
- and from a spike in property tax after remodeling their kitchen and buying a boat dock, she said.”
- “Her husband, a division manager for a construction company,
- was set to pay 50 percent of his salary on housing, she said.
- She doesn’t expect a lot of sympathy
- Poor Mr Drexel … it might get a little slow in the construction business. I hope that he has a nice cash reserve to take care of the boat.
I felt some sympathy right until the part about prop taxes going up because they put in a boat dock.
Hopefully there’s good fishing out there, because it sounds like they’ll probably need to trim their food budget a bit…
I’m also an X-er. We have some “stuff”, but our toys tend to be $250 iPods not $50,000 cars, and nothing that we can’t afford out of present cash.
By and large, though, we prefer interesting life experiences over buying toys. I’ll spend money on good food or travel before I will ‘waste’ it on a 60″ TV. Hell, I don’t even have an engagement ring, because we were too broke to pay cash for one when we got engaged. Our 10th wedding anniversary is coming up, and the subject came up as to whether I might finally get a rock. I said, I’d rather have a nice vacation intead.
When I’m on my deathbed, I’d rather have the comfort of memories of good times in interesting places rather than useless junk that I can’t take with me. But that’s just me.
I’m 47 with a net worth of around $700,000, and no real estate. My only car is a 2003 Toyota Matrix I paid for. My income varies greatly and I consider myself fortunate to have the right skills at the right time for the last 6 years. I share rent in 2 apartments, but my rent payment is $500 total for now. Occasionally I have paid as much as $2500 monthly for rent on two apartments (New Jersey and Arizona). I have to live well below my means because I don’t know how long good times will last. So I invest very aggressively (stock mutual funds) in my tax deferred investments, but very conservatively outside tax-deferral. I would like to have my piece of paradise (ocean front home), but my mind says not to spend more than 1/5 of my net worth on real estate. 1/5 for now gets me a POS, so I continue renting. It always amazes me how people throw money away on image. They are slaves to their possessions. The freeest people have a lot of net worth but little baggage. Most of my colleagues who are contractors are very frugal, but they have spouses who spend money as if it’s going out of style. I think we’re heading into a severe recession, but I’ll be okay, thanks to my savings bonds, cash, T-bills, and Arizona Municipal bonds.
There’s a Russian mail-order bride who would just love to get her hooks into you, sir!
Do you know this woman personally, or are you just the broker?
Josh
Yes, you will be okay… unless there is a great inflation, which will wipe out all “dollar”-denominated assets. Best to diversify a little into things that no one can manufacture out of paper and ink.
Forgot to add that most of my savings bonds are in I-bonds. Also I have been regularly buying gold bullion and a little bit of platinum every year for awhile. Forgot to also mention I keep buying oil stocks.
Well, I-bonds pay an “inflation adjustment” that is calculated by the government, which as we know would NEVER lie to us about the inflation rate.
Your gold (and platinum, to some extent) should stand you in good stead when/if there is a hyperinflation. I expect “they” will try to do that to avoid a deflationary depression. The results should be interesting, to say the least.
The greatest freedom is freedom from wants! A simple life is its own reward on top of all the other rewards.
Retired at 51. I enjoy a simple, yet comfortable life, without a single penny of debt.
Jas Jain
I also “retired’ (from paid employment) in my late 30s but our lifestyle would not pass muster with the 30 year old master of the universe crowd who’ve “had their dream stolen from them”.
Give me a break. I was almost unable to retrieve my eyeballs from the top of my head over that one.
you need to talk to my wife, please. I will pay you.
I never said MY dream…I said the American dream…which is pretty universally reconized as home ownership.
I don’t feel that I’m the Master of any Universe. I rent an old house, buy everything I can second hand, have very little personal debt (we’d rather do without). I’m not even sure that the Master of the Universe bit means. I don’t believe that anyone OWES me a house, if that’s what you’re getting at.
Reading this thread, and others…you seem to have a big build up of anger and nastiness in you. You might try some exercise, or writing things out in a more personal venue, to work some of it out, instead of dumping it on people who are only trying to contribute.
Spare me the dime store pop psychology. Really, it’s boring.
Well…you could have spared yourself the boredom by just moving on and not reading my post. Just a thought.
This is very entertaining
purr…..purrrrrrrr.
-
Cat Fight!
It’s true Shaunta….there are a lot of nasty, rude people on this board. Don’t sweat it, it’s not you.
And I thought I had trouble making friends.
“I’m not even sure that the Master of the Universe bit means.”
it just means you never read “bonfire of the vanities,” by tom wolfe — a very good read about the 80s wall street boom…ers, that is.
“But on my on my worst days, it does feel like they used up the whole American Dream and didn’t leave any for us.”
try prozac for pms. invented by a boomer. and expect a LOT of people to be real nasty to you. people who say things like that deserve nasy aplenty.
the only reason any of you x’ers and y’ers were born was so that we boomers would have somebody to sell our houses to!
posted “Reading this thread, and others…you seem to have a big build up of anger and nastiness in you. You might try some exercise, or writing things out in a more personal venue, to work some of it out, instead of dumping it on people who are only trying to contribute.”
Dr. Phil Shaunta
You can look at the glass as half empty or half full. Half empty you got screwed out of the American Dream by the Boomers. (Was a lot more than the Boomers - but not the point.)
Or you can see the glass half full that because you couldn’t/wouldn’t buy you will have many more opportunities over the coming years when those who believed the hype crash and burn as their ARM’s reset to unsubstainable levels.
Many of us here have wanted to buy for years, but the numbers have not added up. Many of us have large depositis to put down, excellent credit scores, and the ability to make fixed payments EVEN at the hyped prices. But the numbers didn’t add up. Most of us are grateful to have a place where people actually agree with us (and most of the world still doesn’t) and we could share with each other about why the numbers don’t add up.
This is the time to take a deep breath, look at “investor” emotions, and realize that for the rest of your life something will be in a bubble. Always. And the more you can remove the emotions (like the feeling of being ripped off) the more wealth you will have in the long run.
All of us would like to be able to buy houses (and homes) at reasonable prices. If history stands, and it always does, we will be able to again. And yes, this is an inconvenience for you. But the people who “stole” the American Dream from you (like that 24 year old flipper who is making money off his site detailing his stupidity) will be the ones who lose everything. And you will be on the sidelines waiting to pick up the pieces.
If having to rent instead of own for 3 - 5 years is the worst of your hardships, is it really so bad?
Ok I’ve that’s it…..I’ve worked up the energy to post about my parents generation which grew up in the Depression and then just when they were going out into the world many went off to war. After growing up during the Depression, my father finished college in three years then was drafted and got to watch and participate in the slaughter of other members of his generation. My mother actually saw her father (an Ivy League grad and formally well off white collar executive) working for the city picking up trash. She claimed that she never really knew her father as a normal man because when she was quite young the Depression wiped him out and he never really “recovered emotionally”. My mother learned to garden because they were broke and hungry. It wasn’t a hobby she picked up reading Martha Stewart magazine. It’s funny but while both of them talked a lot about those times they never were that bitter. My father would say that he was one of the lucky ones because he was alive and my mother would say that a lot of people had been much worse off than her family. And because of their experiences I had to hear my mother repeat over and over and over and over again, “there are three words you can never say, ITS NOT FAIR!”
Ranting off
If you retired from paid employment in your 30s… quit crying.
lemme guess, you’re a DINK
hmm… or maybe a cat lady now that I think about it.
Or one step further:
Your a DINK who’s parents put you through a good college, and you were in the right place at the right time working in the funny-money financial industry that is wrecking our country…
Retired, that explains it. Nothing turns people into angry, mean spirited critics like retirement does. Instead of trying to think about using market friendly tools like disclosure and reasonable regulation of lending to fix markets you focus on the cries of the agitated. No one promised anyone a house! Meanwhile the rest of us carry on trying to make things work for each other.
Bury the retired! No one promised them peace in old age! Manouver them out of their houses–no more Prop. 13s for you, cancel their Social Security, let their medical system collapse. Go ahead, read your litany of noncompassion. It will be fun reading it back to you when you are older.
Jas, are you in SFV? You are about the only other desi I see posting here.
And, no, I am not using desi in any pejorative sense. I am simply hinting at the ethnicity without calling it out
There’s a guy whose handle is “desidude” who posts here. I wish there was more discussion of the Indian RE bubble but I realize that’s not of much interest to most people here.
Yes please. I work with Indian engineers and we got to talking about the costs of ownership. They were aware that things here (San Diego) had gotten expensive, though not nearly as expensive in Bombay. Ben if you are reading this, some international stories about the bubble focusing on major cities that most American’s can find on a map would be a big bonus.
Josh
What’s to discuss? The factors are very different from here.
There’s been bubbles in Indian cities like Bombay since the 1970’s. Apart from one 50% dip in the 1990’s, it’s been shooting to the moon there.
In the 1970’s and 1980’s Indians who were making money abroad were buying back in India and driving prices up. That was the start of the runup.
In the 1990’s and 2000’s business has been getting outsourced there, foreign companies were allowed to participate in the economy more (and give long term housing loans to the middle class for the first time).
So there’s been a new wave.
Is it going to return to the mean? The mean’s an undefined term. History of mass market real estate is way too short. Explosive population growth in cities means strong demand.
Seems like that bubble will run for a while.
Out of curiousity, why are you interested in it? Have you invested there?
Hello,
I used to live in SFV, where my son still works and lives.
I sold the big home in SFV and moved to Tehachapi and bought a more modest one that more than suites my needs.
I think that there are at least 3-4 people of Indian origin who post here.
Jas Jain
How is asking if someone is desi “hinting at ethnicity without calling it out”? I think that pretty much calls it out!
OK, MD_renter, you got me there
This discussion has been a bit vitriolic today and guess I was a bit leery of handing out any more ammo, if you get my drift.
I’ll second that one. Or, as the late Harry Browne put it well, you become free when you accept that nobody owes you anything.
“Or, as the late Harry Browne put it well, you become free when you accept that nobody owes you anything.”
Tell that to the poor!
” Or, as the late Harry Browne put it well, you become free when you accept that nobody owes you anything.”
Why the Libertarians will never win a major election. Heavy sigh.
1964, but feel like a x-gen
I skipped the Ipod and baught this $35 plug in car ligher Mp3 player… swap out cheap … it rocks
its called the VR3 MP3 FM Modulator Transmitter… plug in a USB mempory chip and rock out.. I can add 512mb to 4GB to ?? as they are available and come down in price….
Sorry Im a cheap skate…
Maybe with the money you saved, you can go back and finish your GED and gain some basic literacy.
wow…
post of the day!
We need to continue chastising as needed. I do not want to see this blog be reduced to incomprehensible teeny-bopper talk.
Being in a minority, even a minority of one, did not make you mad. There was truth and there was untruth, and if you clung to the truth, even against the whole world, you were not mad.
George Orwell, 1984
Amen! One reason I’ve enjoyed this blog so much was that it has always attracted a component of thoughtful, intelligent people who indeed “clung to the truth” while their herd-creature peers drank the kool-aid and reveled in never having an original or independent thought in their entire existences. You guys know who you are — and Ben, as the catalyst for bringing them together, and sparking the lively, intelligent (well, mostly!) threads that have connected these outposts of sanity, you deserve a huge kudos, and at least a modest paypal donation.
Wow. Let me guess. You cling to the truth, and everyone else is a herd creature?
I was raised on a ranch in rural nowhere america by grandparents who lived through the depression. They saved everything from little pieces of twine to tin cans. Clothes were mended until they couldn’t any more. Everything had a second use. I make quite a bit of money now but I still have the same philosophy. I don’t buy crap I don’t need, and I don’t waste money on overpriced name brand stuff I don’t really want. When I need something I buy the best that I can pay cash with that will last a long time. I feel good at not having all the stuff to take care of and if I feel like moving I’ll put everything but my furniture in my truck and go.
crash1,
The WWII generation was the greatest generation. I was raised by my Mexican grandmother who was a nurse during insurgencies in the 20’s. She worked from age 13 to age 90. She volunteered to nurse for American troops in WWII (Mexico stopped them).
She came to the U.S. legally in 1957. She had to live in squaller with her four kids in Tijuana for two years. She said she would never enter anyone’s home uninvited.
Her work ethic an humility were what she inherited to me. Today, I dress in no-name clothes. Drive an 87 nissan sentra hatchback (it’s a little rusted too). Own my modest home free and clear. All this while having a net worth over 3M (yeah, that’s M) and no debt.
I am laughed at quite a bit because of my car and lack of name brand acutriments. I’ve been called a loser by gen-x mater of the universe acquaintances. I think people assume that I have nothing because I never defend myself.
An ex girlfriend’s little sister once called me a loser because of my car. I didn’t say anything. What’s funny is that her not knowing my real position gave me a great amount of pleasure. Showing them my balance sheet would have been a cheap thrill, but I have no desire to change their mind. The reality is that exposing myself would open me to false friends and gold diggers. My little secret is a shield.
The “baby boom” was a demographic phenomenon, not really one generation.
The first half came of age in the mid-to-late 1960s and early 1970s. They had the Vietnam war and a lot of political chaos, but also a strong job market and a good foothold in the labor and housing markets.
The second half — those born from 1955 to 1965 and coming of age after 1973 but during the bad economic period from 1974 to 1983 — had a much worse start economically, and have always been worse off by any measure. Last time this was studied, the “stagflation” generation were worse off than both the 1960s generation and Gen-X by almost any measure. In part this is a demographic curse that we fear will be inherited by our children, at the back end of the baby boom echo.
I and those I know had lower expectations of material life than those who came after. The “love not money” ethos of the 1960s, to the extent it was real, was still around, but with the added incentive that money would be hard to come by even we wanted it.
That said, my wife and I are cheaper than most of our generational peers. Some feel the need to make up for lost time, I guess.
Amen! I came of age in 1975 and I don’t feel like much of a boomer. Not only do I not buy expensive doodads, I don’t have much else either. Everytime I feel like I’m getting ahead, something comes along and knocks that idea out of my head (like massive medical bills for several years in a row that basically drained my savings account). I think the “stagflation generation” faced less employment security and less of everything else. Where I live, houses have always been too expensive to buy.
“The second half — those born from 1955 to 1965 and coming of age after 1973 but during the bad economic period from 1974 to 1983 — had a much worse start economically, and have always been worse off by any measure. Last time this was studied, the “stagflation” generation were worse off than both the 1960s generation and Gen-X by almost any measure.”
This was when our economy began the transition from “bricks-n-mortar” to the “information age”, and if you didn’t…or couldn’t…transition you were toast. I grew up in San Jose, CA — ground zero. In the sixties, a man could support a family if he were a good auto parts man (a problem solver). Fast forward to 2006, the same jobs pay $hit, and they are held by kids on skateboards who don’t know what you need…and don’t care either! Unknowingly, LBJ set us on the slippery slope of entitlements.
Living in Houston, we thankfully havent experienced the ultra-appreciation of the hot bubble areas.
I am a Boomer, as are most of my friends. We bought modestly priced houses in the 80s at 11 or 12% interest rates and prayed we could stay employed. Some did, some didnt. Those were hard times for us, it has made me leery of credit card debt; all debt in fact.
My present house was bought in 92 at a better interest rate, but still I couldnt bring myself to pay more than 2x my salary. It is paid for now, as is my 11 yr old car. Most of my friends have paid off the mortgage, drive older cars and save money. As long as we are healthy and can work, we can save money. I dont expect to be able to retire at 66, there just wont be enough cushion.
I think I was frightened by a bill collector at an early age.
Late boomer, 1960. Trying live without debt.
Driven the same car for 17 years, it runs well and averages (city +highway) 36 mpg. Paid it off in 1993. Shortly before that I paid off my student loans. Two years later I paid off all my credit cards. In 1995 I bought a house. I really didn’t want to but prices seemed fair and the mortgage+ins+taxes ended up being very close to my rent at that time so I did it.
I might get a new car in a few years, but it will not be one that burns any gas, or diesel, or ethanol, or biodiesel. Hopefully all electric, or fuel cell, or hydrogen.
I’m trying to save for retirement. Since I don’t work for the Gubment there is no big fat pension waiting for me.
Personal peeve: Paying for Television, i.e. cable, whatever. Never have, never will, though I do have NetFlix. Does that make me a hypocrite?
I’m trying to save for retirement. Since I don’t work for the Gubment there is no big fat pension waiting for me.
I do work for the Gubment and there’s no fat pension waiting for me either.
I work for the government because the Feds take 35% and the State(cal) 9.3% off the top. Our sales tax rate is 7.5% and our local property tax rate is 1.2%. Don’t you just love the Oinkers (police and fire) with their pensions: retire with 95% at 50 years old with colas. Most retire on phony disability so 50% is tax free. Don’t get me started! You mean I already have???
“I do work for the Gubment and there’s no fat pension waiting for me either. “
The modern federal government is on the 401k plan, and their healthcare plans are expensive with increasing copays, and there is no dental or vision either. The states will eventually adopt this scheme as they run out of money. Better get those teeth fixed now!
…Paying for Television…
Absolutely. With everything digitally broadcast now, all you need is a decent antenna.
BTW - electric cars indirectly burn coal, no?
I’d love to someday put together a home that is completely - or for the most part - free of the power grid. Solar and small-scale wind farming (is that feasible?) would be awesome. Maybe just a dream.
This is sort of a hobby of mine. It’ll cost you at least $20k to get a good photovoltaic / solar cell array, once the batteries, inverters, and associated components are included. Wind turbine systems will cost you a little more but can potentially generate more energy if you have a consistently windy area.
If you’re planning on generating your own electricity location is the most important thing. For solar cells obviously a consistently sunny area is most important; for wind turbines you need a windy area that is also relatively free of tall trees / buildings nearby.
The best way, bar none, to generate your electricity is to buy property with access to a stream and use a micro-hydro turbine. There is a lot more energy stored in falling water than in wind or in photons of ultraviolet light. Plus it tends to be much more consistent. One of my dreams is to have a small backwoods camp where I generate my own electricity. For fun I’ve made my own wind turbines but if you want a reliable system it will inevitably cost a lot (either in your money or in your effort to become knowledgeable in the technology).
Thought about the water, too, but I’d have to be too far from “stuff” for me and mine to be comfortable.
Sun is not a problem - haven’t seen any real rain since, what, May? (Sun Diego)
In some areas that marginally produce oil there has been some folks who have been able to dig for natural gas for their own use. Sometimes, these wells produce natural gas for a signle household for decades or longer. However, you tend not to hear any talk about this from those who have spent maybe $10k (or more) for a natural gas well that runs out after a few years or so.
Well, I do work for the government and while the pension is not fat by any means it does have one thing that most do not. It adjust to inflation each and every year and is back by the mighty printing press of the US Government. When I was thinking about getting out my father told me there are only 2 things in life that give you this guarentee. The Government pension and Real Estate. Real estate rent adjusts to the ‘local’ economy and if the location is good it will keep up with inflation or even exceed. You can live of the rent income while the principal is adjusting for inflation. It is good advice except with this bubble they 2 prices are have been disconnected (rent VS mortgage).
kill big gov - save a buck
BIG question is when will savers be rewarded ?
Soon. As in a year or two. Cash will be King and Debt would prove to be a stone around the neck.
Jas Jain
Ah, debt. The new ol’ ball and chain.
posted “Ah, debt. The new ol’ ball and chain. ”
I agree. In the olden days it was a ball and chain too.
Following up, our attitude from the start was to live as cheaply as possible and still be safe and happy. Not spend as much as possible and still be miserable. In our culture, you have to fight against defining middle class up. The internet passed the test of really being worth it. Cable TV, air conditioning, a fancy car (or any car until we had kids), and lots of square footage did not. Neither did lots of fancy vacations — aside from one trip to Italy, camping and visiting friends and relatives has been fine. We chose NYC as a place to live cheap — smaller housing units, lots of free and cheap things to do, transit and walking instead of cars. But the housing bubble has wiped out these advantages for newcomers, I’m afraid.
In a way, the current culture isn’t even good materialism. There is tons of stuff, but most of it is disposable crap, so even stuff loses its value. But I expect it to change.
There was a funny skit last year on SNL with Steve Martin. It was an infomercial parody for a book called “Don’t buy things you can’t afford”. The wife was getting the message, but the husband (Martin) just couldn’t understand the concept…very funny.
Anyway, I’ve lived my whole life by that idea. I’m a freelance artist, but I have saved enough (along with my wife) to be able to buy a house when prices are normal.
Boomer-1955
Video: http://media.mypartypost.com/shawn/videos/snl_stopbuyingstuff.mov
http://www.mypartypost.com/watchvideobig/2008/SNL_Stop_Buying_Stuff
“‘Those houses have been for sale for months, so who knows when I’ll be able to sell mine and go for a ’step-up’ house,’ said Brooks, who bought her home in 1990. ‘I need to do something.’”
You can tell the San Diego market is crashing when the property ladder is as congested as the freeways, as nobody can move up when prices are moving down…
“I just want to save money, pay off the house, and live simple. My cars are paid for, have several hundred thousand saved, absolutely abhor debt to the max, etc. Are there many others like me still left, or am I abnormal because everyone should own a Hummer, boat, exotic vacations, designer clothes, etc, and have big debt to go with it?”
Boomers against excess, unite!
I think this younger crowd should get their attitudes toward the Boomers a bit more under control since they expect them to bail out their misguided “investments” or provide them with a six figure windfall.
Funny, I was thinking exactly the OPPOSITE.
Yeah, more likely I’ll have to work for the next 30 years (GenX) to pay boomers’ retirement and pay 5x my income for their old, overpriced houses while listening to them whine that “back in their day” they only paid 2x their income for a house, and they worked their way through Harvard by mowing lawns for 50 cents an hour!
lol. i love that: “I paid my way through college — all $12,000 of it! and i paid the $25 rent on my apt. and the $500 for my VW beetle too!”
I don’t know anyone who expects a big inheritence from their boomer parents. And, speaking of misguded investments, I know quite a few boomers who will need to sell their homes at inflated prices to pay for retirement.
My boomer MIL has less money in her IRA than I do, and I’m 35 years her junior.
GetStucco ““I just want to save money, pay off the house, and live simple. My cars are paid for, have several hundred thousand saved, absolutely abhor debt to the max, etc.”
Good for you! This was not because you were born in a certian year. It was done by makeing one decsion and taking action over and over again to meet your goals.
Just like I do. Just like people older and younger than myself or you, do too.
It’s not so much generation as materialistic people in general. Take the get rich quick, 24 Y.O defaulting on 2.2 mil in RE debt. Perhaps the demographic stats over the next 3 years on foreclosures and bankruptcies will provide answers. Being an early sixty boomer, I never had access to this easy credit. Paid 20% or more down on every house I ever owned and played the equity game over time. At present I rent, sold on the high because I wanted out of CA anyway. I have always been happy living simple and saving, never did like debt. To those with debt issues because they wanted it all and wanted it now! Keep on looking for others to scapegoat.
Forgive me if I post duplicate. I posted one but didn’t see it show up. So I post it again. This is my first time to post here.
I have followed this blog for a couple of months. I totally agree it’s bad time to buy a house. But both my wife and I got a 20% + raise in September which brought our family income to $180K/year. That means we have to take a 33% federal tax rate. Someone suggested me we should buy a house right now. If we pay $80K mortgage per year(we have enough savings for our daily life), we will have a 20% federal tax rate after deduction. We will save about $20K in tax. The tax deduction and our current rent combined will be more than the mortgae and the possible housing falling. I have no idea about such tax and mortgage stuff. I don’t if that guy is correct. I know there are many experts here. Could someone give me some ideas? We are living in East Bay CA.
Thanks a lot!
It’s always worth remembering that a tax deduction, is still not as good as a dollar not spent. So even if you get a deduction (which at 180K is not a sure thing your deductions may start to get phased out, or in Cali get hit with AMT issues, I’m not sure though), you want to compare it against how much something is actually costing you. The tax deduction is somewhat overrated.
You’re in the sights of the dreaded Alternative Minimum Tax. AMT shows no mercy. You may not expect to receive all or any anticipated benefit from a mortgage deduction.
Grab a form 1040, Schedule A, and play with the worksheet to see how much you will be permitted to retain of the increasingly chimerical ‘mortgage deduction.’
With a nearly $7000/mo. mortgage payment, you could “afford” a house that is well over $1 million. However, if I were you, I’d max out your 401-K plan and rent. You’ll be a lot better off than with a gigantic mortgage, especially if one of you gets laid off!
Maybe this is obvious but with an 180K/yr income it’s worth noting that 401-K limit is ~$14,000 or $28,000 for two. Typically, once one exceeds that amount, the employer co-pay stops. In my case it’s 5%. If I reach $14,000 before year’s end, I lose that co-pay for the remaining months.
Also, He didn’t say how much they had saved to put down on a home and there’s the old recommendation for saving 3-6 months of routine expenses for emergencies.
Nb_Joe,
I remember in 1990 I got a 20% raise. And I was worried about extra taxes too. I bought a house at the top of the bubble. The house lost 20% over 6 years, which is nothing compared to this next crash. It is not worth the tax cut to buy a house. I REPEAT! IT IS NOT WORTH THE TAX CUT TO BUY A HOUSE. You’ll have more money by paying half or maybe one third of what your mortgage payments will be. TAKE IT FROM ME, LEARN FROM MY MISTAKE. DON’T BUY A HOUSE BECAUSE OF TAX BRACKET ISSUES. YOU’LL PAY MORE IN THE LONG RUN.
Congratulations on your raise! No matter how arduous your efforts, however, it’s not going to save the housing market. We are just 1 yr down the slope from the housing market’s peak and 3-4 yrs away from its trough.
First, there’s no way the mortgage interest tax deduction will be eliminated. I wouldn’t factor that “risk” into the decision.
Second, I’d buy for the want of a home, not a write off.
Third, I’d recommend you buy (or rent) such that you can eliminate the *requirement* of owning a car for commuting. That means either live near work or near rapid transit (BART, Caltrain etc.). Gov’t estimates vary but were 0.48 per mile this summer. 100 miles for two people a day 25 mile commute one way is 800-1000 a month. We have the option of using caltrain but car pool to work instead. Work pays for VTA and Caltrian pass. See if work has an alternate commute plan.
Fourth I’d recommend the book, “Home buying for dummies”. There is a good discussion on when to buy and why - rents vs home ownership costs, benefits of ownership in retirement, risks and etc. http://www.amazon.com/Home-Buying-Dummies-Eric-Tyson/dp/0764553313 It is selling for $0.91 and up.
Note: SF has rent control with a 4% per year cap on rent increases. While increases are not a factor now, it’s worth considering a move to SF if you want predictability but not buy into the market. If you find someone desperate to rent, you can get a good price and then hold on to it. The land lord would have a difficult time to raise the rent later and it’s hard to be evicted. I negotiated a $2,000 to $1,800 in 1997 by promising to not get a roommate for the 2nd bdrm. In 1997 $1,800 was high end but by 1999 $1,800 was very low and it stayed $1,800 until the place sold in 2001 — I then bought my own place.
Thanks a lot for all of you guys. I may need to consult a accountant and read the book aztrias suggested. All your suggestions are “in the Bag”. Thanks again.
test
Sorry, but you guys are all wrong.
All the boomers are coming to West Palm Beach to but horribly overpriced POS condos downtown.
All retiring boomers are moving to S. Fl, and definately do not want to live the simple life. They want to spend, spend, spend.
Such a stupid idea to begin with; its kind of amazing it ever got off the ground.
I don’t get txchicks hostility towards Shaunta, I totally understand where Shaunta is coming from. My parents, are boomers, great people, love ‘em to bits and pieces, they carry no debt on their house and live modestly. That being said, there’s a lot of screwing the younger folks that goes on in this country that’s pretty darn obnoxious.
If, for example, you live in California, Prop. 13 works pretty darn hard to screw anybody who’s up and coming. Boomers who haven’t moved for 15 years are paying peanuts in property taxes, while Gen Xers are paying a high prop. tax bill, and getting socked with Mello-Roos taxes.
Then with housing, sure some of the younger folks are specuating in real estate, but most just want a place to live and raise their family, apparently, its too much that they be a little annoyed towards investors who drove the prices up astronomically. My wife and I bought in ‘03, but now, like most younger folks I got a new job and have to move, and who wants to put their house on the market now while all the speculators are running towards the door. It would have been a lot nicer if Baby Boomers weren’t chasing Internet Stocks or housing or whatever, to drive the prices to wherever then to all run for the door when they realize that they’re all doing the same thing.
Whatever txchick, there’s a difference between playing the victim and venting/complaining. Venting especially in this area seems appropriate.
Whatever. There’s a place for all of this twaddle. It’s called IVillage.
You’ve convinced me! Such persuasiveness!
Thank you, Joel.
Don’t mind TXChic, Shaunta, none of us do.
See, that’s the self-centered nature of you younger people. I could care less if I persuaded you.
Huh, I think what you just said, amply demonstrates my point, boomers come in lob some rhetorical bombs and care not a whit about the destruction they leave behind.
Boomers apparently care not a whit, about persuading younger folks, just railroading over them with harsh language. I don’t see how you’re helping your case txchick57.
Look really, I’m not all this anti-boomer, but it sure would be nice if boomers recognized that maybe, just maybe they are not the center of the universe. Beatles…sure they’re okay, but really, can’t we move on. Boomers never do try to persuade do they, instead they just care not a whit and do it their way, “screw the lot of ‘em” they say. Then they wonder why we’re annoyed towards them.
(I could not possibly think of a reason why.)
Proposition 13 is not fair or a better term ‘equitable’, Neither are a lot of laws. Prop 13 was designed to allow people with fixed income not to be forced from their home due to skyrocketing prices. It is a humanitarian law in nature rather then equtiable one. Life isn’t fair never has been and never will be. The key is to educate yourself on what laws are, what advantages it creates and for whom, and make your decisions on these facts. By being informed you will make better decisions when it is your turn to vote. The baby boomer generation is a powerful group that I think have and will continue to influence congress to pass laws that benefit them at the expense of others in order to get a vote. It is what it is!!! We must accept this fact or exercise ones right to challenge.
We agree that Prop. 13 in California is more humanitarian than equitable. How many boomers will leave large $ to their progeny? My Gen-X best friend is an only child, and he will receive many millions when his Boomer parents move on (one is in the process). His family had great earnings; mine did not. Fortunately we have no kids to pass it on to - only extended family. Will they be grateful when they get it? Who knows and who cares!
Will the new stratification depend on how free-spending the Boomer parents were? When my parents’ parents died, I think they got about $3k from each. Due to RE appreciation, some Gen-Xers may be surprised by how much their parents amassed and would gladly trade the $ for more years with those who lovingly raised them -
If you could care less, then why don’t you? Does there exist a little epsilon of caring greater than zero somewhere in your heart of hearts for Bill and Shaunta?
Sorry, pet peeve! But, hey, I *couldn’t* care less.
LOL. Just got home and this thread is certainly amusing.
Whatever. The ones whining will get older and there will be another whole crop of younger generation triple Z blaming them for all the ills in the world.
I”m a boomer and owned a house in CA for 15 years. My property taxes were over $9K a year. Is that PEANUTS!? My next door neighbors, who were about 1/2 a generation older than me where paying a few hundred dollars a year for a BIGGER AND MUCH NICER HOUSE. While it’s true that the 30/40 somethings that bought my house will be paying $18K/yr in property taxes, they also both have very high paying jobs in hi-tech while many early boomers have been forced to take early retirement or shoved out of corporate positions. Without pensions either, unlike people just 10 yrs older. Or, government workers (like my mom, thank goodness for her fantastic Calpers health insurance!!!).
Yeah, but you probably would have voted FOR prop.13 when it passed. Why don’t you do something about it? My father voted against it, even though he stood to benefit, as did I (a renter). I don’t have much sympathy for your $9K a year property tax bill, sorry. It’s gain you can borrow against, or sell and move.
It doesn’t seem quite fair to chastise someone for something that they didn’t do but that you think they would have done it if they could have done it. But I suppose praise and blame is fair game on this blog.
I wasn’t in the CA when Prop 13 passed. And I don’t live in CA anymore so I can’t do anything about it now. I sold my house and I don’t have any property tax bill anymore but thanks anyway for your kind words. By the way, various articles I have read indicate that corporations are the biggest beneficiaries of Prop 13. I would gladly vote against Prop 13 if I had the chance.
Guys, Prop 13 is the best thing that could happen to a state. It’s not about the prop taxes, it’s about the PRICE OF THE HOUSE. In CA, prop taxes are based on the original purchase price of the house, plus annual increases capped at 2% (IIRC). This is a GOOD thing, as a buyer knows in advance what to budget for.
There is no reason for long-term residents to pay property taxes based on what SPECULATORS WITH MONOPOLY MONEY are willing to pay for a crack shack.
Wait for prices to drop, and prop taxes will drop as well. It truly is all about timing. Then, you can also sing the praises of Prop 13 as another round of speculators drives up prices in CA once again (happens over and over and over again). Prices are volatile in CA; prop taxes should not be.
It’s comparative peanuts sure. You’re property taxes were 9,000/year that’s what about an $700,000 house, the subsequent owners must have bought at what about 1.5M and they get to pay double the taxes you do, sure you 9,000 bill is comparative peanuts on a $1,500,000 house. Ask probably just about anyone from any other state.
I also don’t know where you get this idea that all gen-xers are high tech wizzes that somehow are making all this money after forcing Boomers into retirement. Once the boomers got to be 40 they passed age-discrimination laws making it illegal to force out people over 40 for younger folks (because you could pay them less). So, you tell me, where does this happen, because if you’re over 40 you probably at least get early retirement whereas under 40 you’d probably just get a pink-slip.
Ha. Early retirement? Almost no one in hi-tech has a pension except the ones that worked at IBM or HP. And even though boomers paid into Social Security their whole lives, I don’t expect to see a dime.
Do you have any idea what private health insurance costs once you are over 45 and have had even a minor illness? My health insurance is more than my RENT! (and more than my property taxes were). And with a $5K deductible. And I’m perfectly healthy.
Health care is the big fiasco facing all of us after the housing boom busts.
I’m with you Joel. You can’t blame all boomers because many are responsible, but a lot of them have screwed many generations with their behavior. The most selfish generation in history.
Of course, when they are singing the blues as the whole house of cards implodes I won’t feel an ounce of pitty for any of them.
It is already starting.
I think it depends where you are. It’s a collection of 30 somethings in this town who moved in from the bubble areas who are steeped with conspicious consumption. They have “arrived” and they enjoy setting the bar high to ensure exclusivity. I should try to hang with them as their kids are my kids age, yet I find them so darn boring (and shallow) Before meeting some pretty cool people who actually thought of more than shopping and proving they were the perfect Stepford Mom, I preferred going to political meetings with the retired set. They had so much to share and I learned ALOT. I learn beaucoup info here from people I’m sure are younger than me. Any of you care to move upstate?
Joel B. said:
“My wife and I bought in ‘03, but now, like most younger folks I got a new job and have to move, and who wants to put their house on the market now while all the speculators are running towards the door.”
I smell entitlement here. If you were to price it TODAY at the price you paid in ‘03 (or even lop off 10-15% more), that sucker’d probably sell. You think you deserve more just because you “have” to move?
No, actually, the reason I don’t want to sell now, is because I have no idea what the house is actually worth. I don’t want to screw the guy after me, coming in with a low price for now, and watch them get screwed, or even vice versa, there’s too few comps to come up with any reasonable idea. Instead, we’ve quite a bit of equity built-in, (we put down 20% and took out no cash after it appreciated). The real problem is, and I can see this being in the middle of it, is that there are no…buyers. Barely even one. I know, because on the other end of the relocation I’m a buyer, and sure enough, I say to myself, I’m not buying in this situation, so we’re renting out the house we own (found a good tenant and charging below market rent), and renting a house where I’m relocating too. I know a couple of people who’d want to buy our house but, I don’t want to sell leaving someone else to hold the bag. If…the market goes down where we live now, the house will go down where we relocate, so it’s all in the wash. It’s just a pain to be in the middle of it.
That’s been the major seller disconnect in this market. Sell your house at market and then buy at market; the longer you search, the better bargain you get. Win-win!
Yeah, but in the meantime, I’ve got to live somewhere, and I may be able to sell my house at market, but I don’t know that my wife and I can buy the house we find and like post relocation without their being a wishful seller on the other end.
Thank you for bringing up Prop 13. Many boomers have benefitted from windfall selling at today’s prices. And shamefully, California’s public education system has been decimated by this law. So Gen X-ers also have to face the issue of how to educate their kids: $20K a year on private school tuition? Buy an overpriced home in one of the few good school districts?
Just watched Geo. Soros interviewed on C-Span re his latest book, “The Age of Fallibility”.
Not at all related to housing but during a Q about the economy, world and domestic, he stated, “the housing market (US) is breaking down and this will have serious consequences to the U.S. economy”. or something to that effect.
LMAO
I’m short big time in HB stocks.
What is a 1966? My “new” car is 7yrs old. I also have a 30y/o car and a 41y/o car. I hate the depreciation of the new ones.
I couldn’t agree with you more.
What is a 1966? My “new” car is 7yrs old. I also have a 20y/o car and a 41y/o car. I hate the depreciation of the new ones.
You are a Gen-X’er. Congratulations!
I’m a boomer. I pay off my credit cards every month. I don’t own any furniture that myself and one other person cannot easily carry (small and portable is the rule). Most of it is from Ikea. I drive a Honda. I don’t smoke, drink alcohol or coffee, and am a vegan. I recycle everything except organic waste which I put in the yard for mulch/critters.
My “toys” are my Mac Mini and iPod Shuffle….and that is it. We have a TV but don’t watch very much TV. My wife and I love to walk.
Our ideal home (we rent) would be a 3 bed/2 ba 1200 Ft2 SFH in a quiet neighborhood hopefully close to a park or somewhere else where my wife and I could walk without car sounds/fumes.
I like fixing things myself as I lived in a small town in TX for the last 10 years and you had no choice but to do everything yourself. Necessity is a great teacher.
We just don’t need/want much of anything at this point in our lives.
“I drive a Honda. I don’t smoke, drink alcohol or coffee, and am a vegan.”
I thought you wrote “…and am a virgin,” at first! Of course, this was right after you said you don’t drink, so you can understand my mistake.
What was the title of the thread yesterday Ben refers too?
You can find the exchange in Thursday Oct 5th labeled ‘The housing market is an accident waiting to happen’ or typing =1574 in your address bar. It all started with a Lereah quote, “These are people’s homes. Their retirement is depending on it.”
It appears Shaunta hit a generational nerve with many posters. I don’t think Shaunta was playing the vitim but was showing how todays RE cycle affected her. Shaunta keep saving and wait a few years and you will be able to afford your dream. I think many posters have brought up a lot of good point about the various generations. One thing that is evident is fiscal responsibilty is at an all time lown regardless of generation!!! This is because starting with the baby boomers we have only seen good times!! Neither Generation has seen many rainy days even fewer a rainy month or year. I believe we are approaching one now which is why I remain fiscally conservative. The credit bubble that drove the housing bubble is going to have deeper consequences then most people realize. The driving force of this economy is the consumer and if it stalls the US is going to feel the pain. Why else would the President tell us to SPEND SPEND SPEND. My father a Baby boomer was raised by his grandmother who was deeply affected by the Great depression. She instilled this knowledge on him and made him an extavagent saver. He in turn has taught me some of the same lessons but I am just an above average saver. IMHO Americans are financially illiterate and spend more time shopping and existing rather then enjoying their families and teaching the next generation on perils of life.
Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want and their kids pay for it.
–Richard Lamm
..adopted from S&L Hell by Kathleen Day
LOL!! Why should each Americans save when the Government doesn’t We have come along way from “Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country” speach. Now we are being told what we can do for our country which is SPEND.
As I posted above, the great depression had a deep impact on a whole generation-as will the next great depression.
Yes, it will. In fact, I predict that the 1930’s depression will be renamed “The First Great Depression” after this next one, which is shaping up to be a real doozy.
That was the impression I got from Shaunta too. But you are right, Americans are totally illiterate about finances (and many other things) and it is going to come back to haunt them.
I sympathize with younger people and these ridiculous house prices. The people who bought my mother’s house for $300K in 2000 had it on the market for almost $800K last year (didn’t sell) and $700K this year (didn’t sell; just delisted it). I am appalled by those prices for a 50 year old, 1800 sq ft ranch with absolutely no luxury amenities and very little done to improve it by these new owners. My father drove a truck; that was his house. He passed away very young, 53, in 1973. He never made $20K/year. Now, someone would need a $200K/yr job to buy his house. And its 50 year old and needs work.
All that said, who is at fault? The whole baby boom generation? Most people stay in their homes and don’t make big bucks off selling them. Being mad at the baby boomers is misdirecting your anger, for sure. Who are the folks that bid up houses to these astronomical prices?
Hi, I am a gen x-er (’65) and I too thought I was priced out of the SO CAL market in 2002. I saved up a lot of money through hard labor and bit the bullet to purchase a house for 775K. At the time I thought it was outragious. I have no kids and haven’t taken a vacation in 10 years. I work very hard and save. Subsequently I paid off my home in 4 years inspite of all my friends telling me to purchase another and not to pay off my house. I too pay cash for cars and never have a balance on cards. My point is that people I talked too made me feel quilty and stupid because I wasn’t taking part in flipping houses or trading up. They would say nobody pays off there house, that money should be invested more wisely. I don’t really know who is right, but for me I like the comfort of a simple life with no debt.
I know who is right: you are. And everyone will know it pretty soon.
But, seven hundred and seventy-five THOUSAND dollars for some pipes, paint, and wood? Damn, baby! Would you like to buy my Scion xA? I’ll sell it to you for the bargain price of only eighty grand. What, don’t you think it’s worth it?
Congrats - for sure - for taking care of business, and for understanding that a mortgage is debt with interest (shocking how many people think borrowing to buy something is a good idea). It’s just that I would personally shy away from dropping that much cash on, well, ANYthing. No disrespect - just a different idea of the value of a house.
congratulations on paying off the $750,000. Not to add any venom here, but I hope you at least that same amount in savings. Otherwise the cart may be in front of the horse on this one. What if your house value falls to $375,000 (50% cut), which could very well happen in Sou Cal the next 6 years? At least you paid it off but make sure you reappraise it regularly. You could then get the break you deserve on property taxes. 1% property tax is $7,500 annually. At worst, you could be working at Wal-Mart and easily pay for property tax and your clothes and commuting costs. So yeah, paying it off is a great thing to do. Yup! I’m glad you did not listen to your friends. You’d be complaining!
Remember, It was purchased in 2002 so if it dows drop 50% it is probable back to the purchase price!!
Yeah, good point.
Yeah, good point.
Paying off a house is great! I couldn’t do it until I was 53. To do it earlier implies that you don’t overreach and understand the freedom it brings, even if you have to (temporarily) sacrifice the toys. You are wise beyond your years. Share you knowledge with those around you.
Yeah, I’m at a loss for TxChick’s special vitriol against Shauna - s/he was only voicing what a lot of other people were thinking.
Is this an American thing?
I was brought up in London (although a US citizen), and never really got a dose of the spend!spend!spend! mentality.
Really conspicuous consumption is looked down upon over there, even now and by all generations.
Maybe its part of the British ‘Tall Poppy” mentality, but overly brash bragging/boasting about income and posessions tends to come with a hairy eyeball look, followed by a muttered ‘wanker’, followed by a change of subject and/or removal to a safe distance, from the onlookers.
Most people just think ‘hmm…so many toys. What are you compensating for?’
It will be looked down upon here too. just give it time.
“Maybe its part of the British ‘Tall Poppy” mentality”
I thought that it was an Ausie thing. I first heard from an Ausie girl, in Hollywood, and then some Ausie guys in a forum conformed it.
Jas Jain
Americans are a large and diverse lot. Those who live a life of quiet introspection just don’t make the headlines that the house-flipping, Suv-driving, second wife, second heart-attack, third mortgage refi crowd makes.
THIRD wife - get it right. A second wife is expected nowadays. Hardly newsworthy!
It’s the whining. That’s really it in a nutshell. Whining and blaming. What the hell, I’m mad at the guy who sold me those damned Dow puts a few weeks ago! He stole my American dream!
Whining about whining. Perfect.
Didn’t the bad times after WWII last longer in London? I know a woman in her mid-50s who is from London and she was affected more by the effects of WWII than her friends, my parents, who are American’s her age were here. Hope that makes sense. But maybe that’s why over consumption is looked down on in London–because the memory of very very hard times is fresher and with younger people.
Yeah, very few German rockets were able to cross the ol’ Atlantic. That kind of affects a person. Check out the Japs - they save like no other. Every major population center was fire-bombed to ashes and smithereens, and their land and stock bubbles weren’t really part of the common Nip’s life (which is why WE are totally screwed). Super-savers all, I tell you.
(Oh, and don’t worry - I’m allowed to say “Japs.” And Nips.)
Yep, some parts of London were still bomb sites until the mid-80’s, and rationing for some foods didn’t finish until 1957. Life was a lot tougher for the UK Boomer generation altogether, and the austerity and devastation definately had an effect on the British psyche.
WWII really wasn’t that long ago in the British mentality - lots of people still alive and kicking who lived through the war. It s one of the differences between the US and Europe - your Great Depression is now, what, 3 generations away, almost out of living memory.
Whereas, as an example, my English mother-in-law was born in 1945, the year the war ended, and has older brothers and sisters that remember being down in the Tube Stations in London during the Blitz.
@Jas Jain - it doesn’t surprise me that Aussies use ‘Tall Poppy’ too - I guess its a Commonwealth thang..
My wife is Japanese.
I prefer “Ornamentals” -
You guys are really bumming me out tonight. Such hostility and the race to see who is the most fiscally conservative is unbearable. We need to get back to analyzing the Bubble, bashing Garry Watts, DL, GSE’s, Realthors, The Man, The Woman, etc. al.
However in defense that not all Gen Xers are poor and only Boomers blow cash, this Gen Xer just booked our annual three week ski trip to Austria. One week in Zel am Zee as a warm up and two weeks in St. Anton for the serious stuff. Being fiscally conservative and a ski fanatic we are staying in St. Anton while our fiscally irresponsible and therefore wealthier friends are in Lech.
Now back to the Bubble…
Don’t you just love the Communist/socialist Hungarian Soros ranting. He’s got 95% of his money off shore in Bermuda and the Caymans. He’s sold the dollar short and he’s looking for the Dems to take over and screw thing up royally which they will.
I agree. This is the worst and meanest set of postings so far. I’m sorry that I posted in this thread. Makes me think that the ongoing bashing of the Real Estate industry and agents etc. might also be mean-spirited. At least those postings are usually humorous.
Well, you know me, I like confrontation. This whole generation bashing thing is just stupid. We think the younger people are spoiled, undisciplined twerps, they see us as the “boss,” the “man,” the one with all the money, hoarding it all and giving them none. I believe this attitude existed 100 years ago too so nothing has changed much. I just can’t stand whining.
The other thing I read that I found amusing was the notion that the boomers are all going to be broke in our old age. Hardly. I don’t know which boomers they’re referring too but all the ones I know are very secure.
I personally don’t think of you as “the man,” txchick.
There are a sprinkling of every “type” in every generation. Always has been and always will be.
The actors basic humanity never changes, only the props and plots…..
I thought it was just me thinking that this has been an exceptionally vitriolic thread. Glad to know I’m not alone.
Must be something in the air today.
I don’t think this post is any worse than the ones where someone dares to post a contrary opinion and then gets slammed as a “troll” and told to f-off. What’s the point of discussion if everyone just says “oh, you are SO right. WE are SO smart and THEY are all idiots”, etc. Tedious.
If you think this was rough you must have not been around in summer 2005.
What happened then? Don’t leave us in the dark (I found this blog in early 2006). Inquiring minds want to know!
That’s about when I popped a screw somewhere and started correcting each and every YOUR/YOU’RE, THERE/THEIR/THEY’RE, and other such signs of ignorance glaring from every post. Not tpyos, mind you (calm down folks, that was on purpose), but people who clearly should not have passed 9th grade.
Read my lips:
TYPOS - no problem
ERRORS due to quick & excited typing - understandable
Consistent use of the WRONG word - indicative
Now I usually just ignore these folks’ posts. How can they possibly understand the complex nature of the psychology of markets when they DO NOT KNOW the difference between YOU ARE and YOUR?
Indicative of what? It is the height of ignorance to assume that someone who slept through english composition is an idiot. I know plenty of very intelligent, insightful people with poor written communication skills. And many articulate dunces.
your write
Yes, lots of the “generational war” posts. Then there was Mr. D, who let us know of his extreme fondness for the French and Socialists, in general. Then there’s The Lingus…
I kinda miss those days.
I have been fiscally conservative most of my life…and I almost 40. It’s a good life to be simple…but I tell you…sometimes you need to spend to do something different. Like your ski trip…it sounds fantastic. I don’t begrudge those who have the money to do interesting things…I wish I had more to do such things.
All you other ones…lighten up a bit and let go of some of the righteousness. I know first hand…that a life of just frugality can get boring at times and sometimes, just sometimes it’s good for the soul loosen up!
Great Point!!! “All work and no play makes ‘Jack’ a dull boy!! One must balance work with play in order to realize why one works so hard. I know too many people who are working so hard for the ’so called’ American Dream of big house, nice car that they never have time to truely enjoy what is around them. Eventually they have bought on CC and mortgaged up to their Eyeballs and are trapped by their own doings and they are miserable. Not me - my greatest wealth is my family!!!
:)
I was also born in 62…My house is paid off, I have no debt and no
toys…I live out in the woods, like to garden/farm….What a great life. My motto is: If you want for nothing, you have everything you
want.
I agree. I just can’t get upset over my ‘lack’ of material possessions.
‘The things you own end up owning you’. - Tyler Durden
There is an issue here. People have been taught by our culture, centered in the advertizing industry to substitute material goods for non-material needs.
As a result, happiness has been linked to buying things we can’t afford. And when the music stops, people will feel miserable about a standard of living that 90 percent of the people on earth would be thrilled to have. People have been sold this bill of goods.
I’m not sure what needs people are meeting with McMansions and SUVs, but they aren’t housing and transportation.
As for the bubble, buying a house really does satisfy the need to be part of a community, by giving someone a guaranteed place in it. But they manipulated this need and drove up the price. More misery. All unneccessary.
I am in my mid thirties and have had to work with a ton of boomers in their 50’s and 60′ that do not have a penny to their name. They are screwed and that is their damn problem. Not all boomers are like this, but their are a ton that are. I would buy stock in card board boxes because that will be the home of many boomers as time goes by. IS IT ME OR HAS ANYBODY ELSE NOTICED THAT THE HOMELESS SITUIATION IN THIS COUNTRY IS GETTIN BAD AND WILL GET WORSE. Say what you want about Xers, but we still have time to save if we are not forced to pay higher taxes to compensate for all the boomers who are going to be living on the streets. OH BY THE WAY ALL THE YOUNG PEOPLE AROUND WITH NOSE RINGS AND TATS ALL OVER THIER BODY ARE THE Y Y Y Y GENERATION, AND THEY ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE BOOMERS. So we know why they look like that now don’t we.
I don’t understand how some people sleep at night. I have quite a few co-workers who are in their 50s or early 60s who are practically living paycheck to paycheck. One guy got wiped out because his wife lost a grueling eight year battle with cancer–I feel really sorry for him.
But a lot of people really don’t have a good excuse. Just horribly idiotic financial management. Taking out second mortgages so that your kids can go to a $40k/yr private college and not have to work or be saddled with any student loans is simply not smart, no matter how generous your intentions. I really don’t understand how so many smart people have become Forest Gump when it comes to financial strategy. It seems to me that nearly every parent of a college-bound kid that I know is planning to finance their education through their home equity (hey honey, its tax deductible!).
“I don’t understand how some people sleep at night. I have quite a few co-workers who are in their 50s or early 60s who are practically living paycheck to paycheck.”
They take comfort that their will be a nice cardboard box with a view of the river bottom that will give them shelter. Or maybe it is the acid flash backs. Sorry so many boomer hippies out there. They did do some good stuff, but dang.
David,
I’m a boomer and an avid saver, but i think the future may be tough for anyone facing health care costs–which is all of us in the private sector. Saving for retirement is one thing, but I think it’s foolish to think that health care will be freely available to seniors in the future. I expect a serious reduction in services offered, and a means test to be instituted. Anybody hoping for decent health care when older needs a private health plan and some serious savings.
Yep, no doubt health care will be socialzed and a reduction in health services today will become the norm tomorrow. Hillary Clinton will get her wish. Hell framework for socialized healthcare is already in place through the formation of the HMO’s. Live as best you can and hope you do not get sick. That is easier said than done. “It’s a dangerous business, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don’t keep your feet, there’s no knowing where you might be swept off to.”
You ought to visit some socialist countries to get a taste of this “awful” socialized medicine. You’d be amazed at how nice their facilities and services are, IMHO. Don’t forget, in most cases, you can always upgrade from basic services.
There are treatments available in many socialized countries which are not available here because it would harm the U.S. drug industry. Capitalism is not all it’s cracked up to be where healthcare is concerned.
With our HMO, we already have to wait 2-3 months for a standard appt. Don’t see how socialism would make things any worse.
I see the same thing. I know people in their 50’s counting on inheriting their parents’ money as their retirement plan. I had to tell them when they were 50 to start saving in the DC retirement plan. They had nothing saved. They were too lazy to fill out the form - and these are well educated people. I think a lot of boomers are in for a world of hurt.
I know I have to beg some Y generation to fill out their dang 401K application. The Co. I work for has a great match and they are not taking advantage of it. Free money and they are too lazy take advantage of it. Some really don’t make that much and do not want another deduction because wages have not moved all that much, maybe that is the problem.
I had Boomer teachers refuse to fill out the 401k, even with the company matching the first 2%. They said they couldn’t afford it.
“even with the company matching the first 2%”
That is a 100% guaranteed return on day one, best investment anybody will ever make. They can not afford not too, at least on this first 2%.
Anybody who can not see this, and adjust their spending accordingly (2% less spending), is brain dead.
Just out of curiosity, what do these people know so much about that they are teaching?
English; certainly not finance! -
Seems I forgot to put on my body armor before sitting down at the computer today. What hostility we have here today!
Well, I’m glad everyone seemed to get that out of their system
What do you guys think about just renting until retirement (about 20 years for us) socking away money and buying a cabin in the mountains for retirement??? I’m thinking we can live in a “mcmansion” without buying it, having the expense of owning it, repairs, etc., living the “good life” at an fb’ers expense then paying cash for our own little piece of the pie in the hills!!!!!!
Go for it make the landlords pay out the ass for all the defects that need to be fixed in your new rental home and know the rental laws in your state, all these flippers now landlords feel that a deposit is something they keep to make their next mortgage payment. Take them to small claims if they do not pay you back. Oh make sure to video tape the rental before you move in so that the SOB flipper now landlord trys to say anything you can have some evidence to fall back on. Lastly, if they give you a bad referance for your next rental after you have to move because the home you are living in was foreclosed on, sue the crap out of them. Life is too short not to take things all the way and you can never go too far. Like marriage home ownership is not for everyone. Don’t believe all the crap that your home is an investment, last I heard I did not pay interest on stocks I purchased. A home is a place to park your ass, drink a beer, and get some sleep.
This is what I’ve been thinking. My hubby hates being at the mercy of a “slumlord” after the last fiasco we experienced with one, but I love living in a “big fine home” that someone else is stuck paying the 6k (or more) in property taxes, then insurance, repairs, etc. My kids will be gone in 2 years off to college, military, etc., I’m glad now that even though we just moved to this really nice, big house, newer, upgrades, etc. (just moved from slumlord house built in 40’s with NO updates!!!), we don’t own this white elephant and can move at the end of a lease or whenever we choose. I know this house still won’t sell in a year or two for the 600k+ they wanted for it this year and it may never sell for that price again! Those 600k+ days are over here in loudoun county va!! So, we can live comfortably, be proud to have friends over, save our money and move to the hills of VA in 20 years debt free!
I would not do it!! I think Real estate is a great tool to build wealth and reduce living costs when it comes to retirement. I personally believe you should wait a few years until you are sure the market has hit bottom the purchase a home on a 30 year fixed with as much as 20% down. This advice is based upon you keeping the house for several years. After 20 years from now you will have at least 15 years building equity and your house payment will be about half of future “current” rent/mortgage payments.
I agree, wait 5 years and buy at the bottom. The 15 years of appreciation should more than make up for maintenance and tax costs. Provided that you can buy where you really want to live for the 15 years of ownership. If not, just keep on renting.
Sounds like a good plan to me. We own, but we live in a place that hasn’t had the ridiculous “appreciation” that many other areas have, and our mortgage is not a significant burden. I can tell you I would rather rent for the next 20 years than pay the absurd prices that are currently being wished for in most places!
This is our plan. We own the property in the woods already and rent in a really nice town near Boston. I’d like to finish graduate school, find a teaching job and have my husband work someplace like jiffy-lube.
I always thought that our undergraduate degrees would have bought us a more mainstream lifestyle, but layoffs and depressed wages have kept us in the same position as our immigrant grandparents.
On the plus side I’m a whole hell of a lot more interesting than my boomer sister (she’s eight years older than me).
In all fairness, I also know a lot of Geb-Xers who are also all work, no play, keep up with the jones at all costs types.
This post is for me. I am sick to death of these boomer-hating posts by people who apparently drank the Republican kool-aid and don’t even know it. (I’ll get back to that point later.) Where to begin???
First of all, my hubby and I are boomers, born in 1957. We have no credit card debt, owe one year on our car, and will have our student loans paid off this year. Student loans, you say? Yes, we went to college in our late 40s – not every boomer grew up middle class. In fact, the majority did not. My husband grew up poor – I mean REALLY poor. So poor his proud mother had to go on welfare to support her four kids when her husband left the family. (Yes, it DID happen back in those days.) She didn’t even have a high school diploma, but managed to find a job SHE HAD TO WALK TO – THE OLD MAN TOOK THE CAR – and got off welfare in less than a year. My dad was a union electrician, but of Mexican descent (his parents were immigrants). Took him 8 years to get into the union b/c they weren’t “ready” for Mexicans yet. But he took their shit and finally got in, and managed to make a decent living and raise his eight kids, though he couldn’t afford to send us to college.
My husband served 24 years in the Air Force as an enlisted man, and then used his GI bill to help pay for his education. I get furious just thinking about the younger crew on this board bitching and moaning that boomers fucked everything up with their selfish ways and now they (the younger generations) can’t afford a home. What the hell kind of selfish life do you think he had that ruined yours??? That man busted his ass for long hours, sometimes under difficult conditions (try a tent in the Saudi desert for 6 weeks at a time after the Kobar towers were bombed), and for not a lot of pay. He’s worked hard all his life and has NO POWER over the economic conditions that you rightly resent. And there are many more like him.
We tried to raise our son to be prudent financially, but he just wouldn’t listen to us. He and his wife got themselves into massive debt, which they finally came to their senses about. But it is a long hard haul to get out of it. I feel for them, but like I say, they wouldn’t listen to their parents. Credit card sharks on college campuses and constant advertising to CONSUME CONSUME CONSUME apparently drowned us out, at least temporarily. Like many others of their generation (and by the way, I see many more boomer kids in this boat than boomers), they found themselves sucked in. Although they have it hard now trying to pay it down, they at least have seen the light, which is more than we can say for many Americans.
Back to the boomers. Those of us who came of age in the 1970s did so at the beginning of the deindustrialization of the U.S. In the town we grew up in, people in our parents’ generation were able to, upon graduating from high school, get a job at U.S. Steel, or Caterpillar, or as a unionized skilled worker and make enough money to buy a modest home and a car and raise a family. Not with multiple TVs, computers, cell phones, Ipods and the rest of the crap people expect these days. But a decent life. They could work for the same employer their whole lives and count on a decent pension. So of course our generation thought that’s what their lives would be like.
But as I said, the 1970s saw the beginning of the deindustrialization of the U.S. We make virtually nothing here now, not b/c a profit cannot be made by paying American workers a decent wage, but because a humongous profit can be made by outsourcing the work to countries where the labor is cheap and environmental laws are lax. Many boomers who had expected to take these kinds of jobs (and remember, the majority were not middle class and college educated) will have only limited or non-existent pensions. As the decades rolled on, the trend toward off-shoring and outsourcing of jobs moved up the occupational hierarchy. The classic case is IT jobs going to India, as well as engineering jobs, and allowing more and more H-1B visas for foreigners to come here and take these jobs for less pay. (Thanks, GOP.)
And this is what brings me back to the kool-aid comment. Many of you younger ones, born after the “Reagan revolution” live and breath the mantra of unfettered capitalism, nurtured by Republican dominance of the public discourse in recent decades. You’re completely blind to the fact that capitalism without restraint to protect workers, jobs, and the interests of those of us not in the top 5% income bracket has brought us to this pretty pass. When you repeat the Republican-inspired mantra that boomers have caused all our societal problems, you betray your thorough brainwashing. Boomer-like attitudes are what they (the GOP) most fear (and why they haven’t instituted a draft though the military is desperate for warm bodies – they know that would get people in the streets to oppose the Iraq war – a war polls show a majority think was a mistake). What do I mean by “boomer attitudes”? Questioning of authority, questioning of unnecessary wars, questioning of inequality. White boomers rode with blacks on the freedom rides and helped with voter registration during freedom summers. They fought for environmental laws and freedom of information. Boomer feminists opened the first battered women’s shelters and fought for women’s right to employment in fields that had previously denied them entry. They also fought for the right of unmarried women to have access to birth control – which undoubtedly many of you post-boomers enjoy.
So, in closing, what I want to say is this. STOP MINDLESSLY REPEATING THE BOOMER HATING MANTRA. This is what economic elites want –to divide us one from another while they pursue policies that hurt the majority. And one more thing: Although we’ve paid into social security for more than 30 years and don’t count on seeing a dime, we don’t resent it. We know our parents need it – as well as Medicare. How’s THAT for a selfish boomer????
It’s not a Republican-caused problem. The outsourcing is partly due to lax environmental laws. I am 2 years younger than you and posted my “simple living” post way above. The problem the U.S. has is lack of competitiveness. Spoiled people in America expect to have cheap fuel for their cars, plasma TVs, multiple TVs, all that you say. In our day it was one car in our household and one TV. The problem is Americans are overextended on their spending. Just as Government is too. I am about to lose my job and have been looking for jobs the last two weeks. But I do like outsourcing. It is a signal that Americans have to get off their fat spoiled behinds and make way for world competition. Because otherwise it is selfish for us to not want Indians and Chinese to improve themselves too. We are citizens of this world. That’s what we need to think of ourselves first. If you cannot stand other countries pulling themselves up, you can at least profit from them. T Rowe Price New Asia (Asia ex-Japan) fund is good. Dodge and Cox International Fund. I invest overseas and I know America is in decline. We can reverse the decline if we stop being the world’s policeman and if we make a flat tax lower than the lowest flat tax in the world. Flat tax - no sales tax, no capital gains tax, no dividends tax. I do think we need tariffs (that supports your views) for some parity with other nations. But We need to have incentive for people to make money here in the U.S., be inventive, and come up with cures for cancer and heart disease, for one. We especially need a cure for irresponsibility. That infects 99% of Americans.
to be more clear, outsourcing is partly due to lax environmental laws in India and China, no child labor laws, and lower or no corporate taxes, and no lazy unions.
Boomer2957’s comment demonstrates an astonishing amount of tone deafness and a whole lot of boomer self-righteousness that I think many in my generation just expect and is part of why boomers can be exasperating.
Look, does anyone doubt that some boomers are frugal, grew up of modest means, etc.? No, most people expect this, what drives the kind of boomer exasperation, is this everything in the paradigm of reliving vietnam, the beatles, refighting the draft, and on and on. I saw the anti-war protesters, I lived in San Francisco, it was a depressing collection of over the hill boomers. Seriously. The problem most younger folks have with the boomers is that they will not grow up. Did a lot yeah, a lot did, a lot of them are posting here, etc. But it sure as heck seems like a lot didn’t.
Free love etc. you think might be great, a lot of us though younger folks see it as a way to ditch out on your kids when you get tired of your spouse, good for you, sorry if we think our grandparents had it right.
And MAYBE just MAYBE, women’s lib wasn’t all it was cracked up to be, instead of being able to afford a house on one income, instead, everyone got on the treadmill so that now, you have to have two incomes to support a family while you outsource raising your kids to the nannies. Was it fair? No, sure as heck not. Was it better? I don’t know question is still up in the air if you ask me, sounds like more and more women would like to stay home with their kids but they can’t afford it. Why because everyone else is on the two earner treadmill. It’s a heck of a lot harder to afford a house on one income (any house especially when the dual-earners are bidding everything up) than two.
Questioning of authority, questioning of unnecessary wars, questioning of inequality. Seriously, the problem to you appears to be that we are questioning authority…yours! I question the infantile idea that wars are always unnecessary, I also question the idiotic idea that Bush poses more threat to me than the nutcase jihadist. Boomers also want to be “friends” with their kids oh get over yourselves, be parents. Be respected. Your old now, get over it, move on. Grow up finally.
Lastly, I don’t know many in my generation who are uber-partisan drinking the “Republican Kool-Aid” instead we’re mostly just uber-cynical. Sometimes that’s Republican, we’re less likely to think love and happiness and whatever is something you’re entitled too, and sometimes that’s Democratic thinking that yeah maybe companies do have a tendency to exploit their workers when not appropriately reigned in. But’s it’s less party-line, then just cynical…question your authority. We’re just more willing to accept that maybe your parents were right.
Although we’ve paid into social security for more than 30 years and don’t count on seeing a dime, we don’t resent it. We know our parents need it – as well as Medicare. How’s THAT for a selfish boomer???? HAHAHAHA, oh my again the tonedeafness, instead of taking care of our parents ourselves, we pay a little bit of money into Social Security and Medicare, put them into nursing homes and drop them off on everyone else to take care of. Thanks for your gracious selflessness. It is unparelled.
This post is for me. I am sick to death of these boomer-hating posts by people who apparently drank the Republican kool-aid and don’t even know it. (I’ll get back to that point later.) Where to begin???
First of all, my hubby and I are boomers, born in 1957. We have no credit card debt, owe one year on our car, and will have our student loans paid off this year. Student loans, you say? Yes, we went to college in our late 40s – not every boomer grew up middle class. In fact, the majority did not. My husband grew up poor – I mean REALLY poor. So poor his proud mother had to go on welfare to support her four kids when her husband left the family. (Yes, it DID happen back in those days.) She didn’t even have a high school diploma, but managed to find a job SHE HAD TO WALK TO – THE OLD MAN TOOK THE CAR – and got off welfare in less than a year. My dad was a union electrician, but of Mexican descent (his parents were immigrants). Took him 8 years to get into the union b/c they weren’t “ready” for Mexicans yet. But he took their shit and finally got in, and managed to make a decent living and raise his eight kids, though he couldn’t afford to send us to college.
My husband served 24 years in the Air Force as an enlisted man, and then used his GI bill to help pay for his education. I get furious just thinking about the younger crew on this board bitching and moaning that boomers fucked everything up with their selfish ways and now they (the younger generations) can’t afford a home. What the hell kind of selfish life do you think he had that ruined yours??? That man busted his ass for long hours, sometimes under difficult conditions (try a tent in the Saudi desert for 6 weeks at a time after the Kobar towers were bombed), and for not a lot of pay. He’s worked hard all his life and has NO POWER over the economic conditions that you rightly resent. And there are many more like him.
We tried to raise our son to be prudent financially, but he just wouldn’t listen to us. He and his wife got themselves into massive debt, which they finally came to their senses about. But it is a long hard haul to get out of it. I feel for them, but like I say, they wouldn’t listen to their parents. Credit card sharks on college campuses and constant advertising to CONSUME CONSUME CONSUME apparently drowned us out, at least temporarily. Like many others of their generation (and by the way, I see many more boomer kids in this boat than boomers), they found themselves sucked in. Although they have it hard now trying to pay it down, they at least have seen the light, which is more than we can say for many Americans.
Back to the boomers. Those of us who came of age in the 1970s did so at the beginning of the deindustrialization of the U.S. In the town we grew up in, people in our parents’ generation were able to, upon graduating from high school, get a job at U.S. Steel, or Caterpillar, or as a unionized skilled worker and make enough money to buy a modest home and a car and raise a family. Not with multiple TVs, computers, cell phones, Ipods and the rest of the crap people expect these days. But a decent life. They could work for the same employer their whole lives and count on a decent pension. So of course our generation thought that’s what their lives would be like.
But as I said, the 1970s saw the beginning of the deindustrialization of the U.S. We make virtually nothing here now, not b/c a profit cannot be made by paying American workers a decent wage, but because a humongous profit can be made by outsourcing the work to countries where the labor is cheap and environmental laws are lax. Many boomers who had expected to take these kinds of jobs (and remember, the majority were not middle class and college educated) will have only limited or non-existent pensions. As the decades rolled on, the trend toward off-shoring and outsourcing of jobs moved up the occupational hierarchy. The classic case is IT jobs going to India, as well as engineering jobs, and allowing more and more H-1B visas for foreigners to come here and take these jobs for less pay. (Thanks, GOP.)
And this is what brings me back to the kool-aid comment. Many of you younger ones, born after the “Reagan revolution” live and breath the mantra of unfettered capitalism, nurtured by Republican dominance of the public discourse in recent decades. You’re completely blind to the fact that capitalism without restraint to protect workers, jobs, and the interests of those of us not in the top 5% income bracket has brought us to this pretty pass. When you repeat the Republican-inspired mantra that boomers have caused all our societal problems, you betray your thorough brainwashing. Boomer-like attitudes are what they (the GOP) most fear (and why they haven’t instituted a draft though the military is desperate for warm bodies – they know that would get people in the streets to oppose the Iraq war – a war polls show a majority think was a mistake). What do I mean by “boomer attitudes”? Questioning of authority, questioning of unnecessary wars, questioning of inequality. White boomers rode with blacks on the freedom rides and helped with voter registration during freedom summers. They fought for environmental laws and freedom of information. Boomer feminists opened the first battered women’s shelters and fought for women’s right to employment in fields that had previously denied them entry. They also fought for the right of unmarried women to have access to birth control – which undoubtedly many of you post-boomers enjoy.
So, in closing, what I want to say is this. STOP MINDLESSLY REPEATING THE BOOMER HATING MANTRA. This is what economic elites want –to divide us one from another while they pursue policies that hurt the majority. And one more thing: Although we’ve paid into social security for more than 30 years and don’t count on seeing a dime, we don’t resent it. We know our parents need it – as well as Medicare. How’s THAT for a selfish boomer????
PS Now that I’m at the end of my rant, I realize much of this is ill-directed - it’s that housing panic blog where so much boomer hatred is expressed. Also want to say - like your blog, Ben. Keep up the good work.
We tried to raise our son to be prudent financially, but he just wouldn’t listen to us. He and his wife got themselves into massive debt, which they finally came to their senses about. But it is a long hard haul to get out of it. I feel for them, but like I say, they wouldn’t listen to their parents. Credit card sharks on college campuses and constant advertising to CONSUME CONSUME CONSUME apparently drowned us out, at least temporarily. Like many others of their generation (and by the way, I see many more boomer kids in this boat than boomers), they found themselves sucked in. Although they have it hard now trying to pay it down, they at least have seen the light, which is more than we can say for many Americans.
But I thought he was supposed to question authority? Or did I get that wrong? We’re only supposed to question your parent’s authority?
As an aside? Did you only have one child? That’s what it sounds like, but you may have had more, what did you do when you raised him? Did he get much of want he wanted, did you try to be his friend? Did you say no? Did you speak with words and actions? Or did you tell him to be frugal and buy him everything he wanted?
I don’t want this comment to sound harsh, because this comment I don’t mean to be, I’m genuinely curious.
Boomer,
I’m Gen-X, and agree with everything you said.
I also agree strongly with Joel about the divorce/ditching the family thing. Though there are very legitimate reasons for divorce, “falling out of love” is not one of them — especially when you have kids (either minor or adult).
[rant on]
Flame me all you want, but txchick57 is one of the most centered persons here. Why? She knows that life is what you make of it and nothing else. Blaming others for real and/or perceived injustices gets you absolutely nowhere (unless you’re looking to instigate a new holocaust).
Do people screw other people? Damn right! Unfortunately, it’s human nature, and it’s not confined to any specific generation, nationality, ethnicity, etc.
Like txchick57 I volunteer for a dog rescue, and I see the worst of human nature on a regular basis. Dogs offer unconditional love, loyalty and protection and ask very little in return, yet people abuse and abandon them without a second thought.
Feel sorry for yourself all you want, but excuse me if I don’t sympathize.
[rant off]
The worst of human nature:
Man suspected of throwing Boxer puppy on grill has bond hearing
http://www.wistv.com/Global/story.asp?S=5490650
Quite a string indeed, however I’d note that everyone on this conversation emphaticall eskews debt, is a tenacious saver and frugal. Clearly not representative of the public; with the savings rate negative for the last seventeen months, consumer credit at astronomical levels, a staggering and unwarranted housing bubble and on and on it goes. The point I’d like to make is that why is this occurring?
My thoughts are:
1/ Baby-boomers are the worst generation ever, everything they have touched has been besmirched, I guess this makes sense because their parents were the best ever generation.
2/ Frugality today is like that old proverb of the man who prays on the street so that everyone knows the measure of his piety, which amounts to just window dressing.
3/ The fat of the land is being consumed by foolish and greedy people who have been accustomed to getting what they want without ever paying for it.
4/ American’s pay too little taxes or too much, I don’t know which! or maybe they pay too much for the wrong stuff and too little for the right services (health care anyone). Either way taxes are going up.
5/ We are a corrupted and weakened people. We even lack the integrity to fulfill the first mandate of the state which is to protect and defend the border. (thanks to big business for that one).
6/ At times I quake for this country.
I’m Gen-X and have a different take on this catfight. When I saw the bloodbath in the early eighties I understood just how gnarly the housing markets are. As such I saved and waited and purchased at the first market bottom that came along.
In my opinion this anger over so-called entitlement is pure crap. The market is messed up and it doesn’t have to be. It as if Standard Oil were still there but nothing could be done because capitalism means monopolies, right? The TXChicks and others need to get over themselves. Broken markets are no good for anyone, and to the extent you leave things like they are you had better watch your backs because there are sharks like me in the water who with the current system will always have more house more paid off than the vast majority of other in the same age and income bracket.
You want to preserve an unfair and lame system because of your competitive insticts? Fine. People like me will always be way ahead of you in the housing game then. Hopefully you are okay with that, though it seems kind of sad to me because it does not have to be that way.
I do not understand why txChick57 wastes her time here. She is obviously so superior to everyone here.
Just try to repossess her Hummer. I doubt that she has one, with the exception of her HB -
Superior to everyone except the great Stucco. Basically the only two people I scroll to on longer threads.
Oh, wait - you were being sarcastic. Ironic that you might actually be correct.
I for one have learned alot from her. I hope she continues to open our perspective and benefit us with her experience. This thread has helped pull me out from my pity party. Thanks TxChick57 and everyone.
These generational attacks miss the mark. There are people of every
generation who rely on ponzi style economics to get them through life
instead of working hard, saving, investing, and being generally patient for opportunities to come up. Hell, our government is the biggest perpetrator.
This is true the Ponzi scheme has been around for ages anybody read about General Grant he was indirectly part of a “Gold” Ponzi scheme way back in the day, a decade or so after the civil war. Ponzi schemes get reinvited all the time and used to various degrees.
About time that someone said this in this very long thread. Face the facts people are the problem (when you boil it all down). So the boomer thing: keep in mind that this is a Large demographic population and their numbers skew alot of things. Fact is there is a certain population of society that are complete idiots. The % is most likely consistant thru generations but with such a large number of boomers out there it just seems as if they are the the problem. Also I think that there are great differences between the early boomers and the late boomers. The times that each group grew up in is in reality quite different and as such created different world views. My parents “early boomers” actually born in early part of the demographic, were/are very frugle. I think that this fact is due to their parents being products of the depression and that they instilled a certain frugality upon them. NOW to my generation the Xer’s: We grew up at a time when things generally were going quite well and many of us were given more that we needed and this has skewed our outlook on things. Couple this with the fact that we have been heavily marked to our entire life and as time marches on it has gotten worse. Advertising has planted this seed in our generation that material things will make us happy and fashion and the right “stuff” are REQUIRED. It is hard not to buy into this as it is every where all the time. I will also add that many people are inticectually lazy and would rather have someone tell them what to do that actually think it out for themself. SO..this housing thing,couple the Increased number of idiots from the boomer population based on the larger number of the population, with the fact that no one wants to think for themself and just follows the heard because of the heavy marketing presented them and i think all here know what has happened.
sorry for the typos and run on sentences.
They took some very aggressive loans with the mindset that they’d be able to change something in their circumstances before interest rates went up.’”
“One example was a hotline caller who had taken out an equity line of credit to assist her child in buying a condo, which in turn was financed with a negative amortization loan.”
Stupidity does run in families
My $ 0.02 on this whole “X” vs “Boom” is that it is simply a matter of expectations. I was not born in this country and have no clue what happened before I came here. So, I have no expectations on what anyone was supposed to do for me. I started from scratch, got a Master’s, and yaddi, yaddi, yadda. Now, if house prices are too high, then tough *&^%. I either must make more money or find somewhere cheaper to live. That’s it. My choices are mine to make.
I must say that I am proud to have started a great thread and thank Ben for picking up this topic for today. It was a nice birthday present for me. WIsh I had been a part of it earlier.
‘She doesn’t expect a lot of sympathy but still finds the high cost of housing frustrating. ‘
I just want to slap some people and scream, “you don’t need a million dollar house, but your kid NEEDS a mom! If you sell NOW and rent, you can save enough monthly to get psychotherapy and figure out why you feel a need to have a million $ house and do something about dealing with the underlying issues that will help you and your kids.”
When my wife and I bought, we bought the smallest house we bought one of the smaller homes on the market 3Bd/2Ba 1500 sq. ft. It’s really quite hard to find anything that’s not 20 years or older and right around 1500-2400 sq. ft. (2400 I think is the right amount for a large family say 3-4 kids, and 1500 is right for 1-2), but just try to find a 1500-2400 sq. ft. house in most places, it can be darn tough. I don’t know what’s driving the McMansion mania, maybe builders figure if they’re all building McMansions, people will have no choice but to buy McMansions (eventually) but seriously, who needs more than 2500 sq. ft. ever. But trying finding nice houses under that (at least in a lot of bay area places) and it can be tough, under 2000 they pretty much are boxing you into condos, and the current shakeout is showing how dangerous condos can be.
I have to say: This thread is the low point on ben’s (otherwise) excellent blog.
Sweeping generalizations of people’s behavior based on the year of their birth ranks right up there with Chinese astrology. (I’m a Rabbit; maybe I was supposed to write an entry like this.)
I don’t know how/why/when the above mode of communication started passing for rational discourse, but the fact that it occured here on this blog is a sad indicator for the country.