“There Are Still Some Places That Are Inexpensive”
Several readers are looking at inexpensive areas in every direction. “Once I have my rainy day fund in the bag and I can live in the hills in the far north for a few years if need be. Or buy a villa in central America for cash. Just in case the U.S. get ‘ruff’” Another said,
“Eastern Sierra looks good to me, there’s plenty of wind and sun for power, and you could always ‘tap’ into the aqueducts.”
Another, “You are right! And places are not that expensive out there. I did a lot of hiking and biking in the region over a span of 11 years. Interestingly, many people overlook the area. There are some pockets even in the desert ‘hills’ that are not considered part of the Sierra and they could be fine too.”
One agreed, “On the Eastern Sierra: That has alway been my favorite region to hike and explore as well! If one had money salted away and enjoys unpopulated regions with vast expanses of Sagebrush, desert peaks and volcanic-lava terrain then the eastside is the place.”
“I always favored Lone Pine as my favorite little ESide village. A popluation of Cal Coastal expatriates have purchased decent homes and properties(and bid up the prices momentarily). Next several years I expect properties in Eastide to plummet, and there will be steals galore.”
One looks outside of the United States. “I’d like to see a discussion of overseas real estate. There are still some places that are inexpensive (methinks). I like Central America. Caribbean is nice but could be too expensive. A buddy of mine (American) is having his escape haven built right now in Jamaica overlooking the water.”
“I like Costa Rica, but the prices have gone up tremendously. The great thing about going international is that you are looking at bigger markets. When you expand your choices of where to buy, you have a chance of finding better values, rather than being only in the U.S.”
One said, “Great topic. Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Guatamala, Chile,? I know several of us entertain the fantasy of an escape hatch out of the US just in case the Greater Depression is not so much fun… Price per square foot, stability of Govt, predicted impact of US crash on local RE market, rent vs. buy pros and cons, currency issues, amount of nice RE near ocean, quality of waves for surfing, and any incubation period for pets are some relevant issues.”
Others look farther afield, “I’d love to live in India. Kerala or Pondicherry to be more specific, but there’s a fierce RE bubble there too. Also in other places I like such as Sydney or New Zealand.”
And another, “New Zealand or Montenegro for me.” One had a more specific question.”Great topic…anybody have insight on Vancouver Island?…I love it there…or in BC?”
A reply, “Great place, I spent all summer cruising there on our boat. Prices are very high, same for the YVR area. Everyone in YVR thinks the olympics will save their bubble, I doubt it. Right now my pals on the Island say the prices are easing a little but not much.”
One likes Central America. “I follow Costa Rica somewhat closely since I started going there to surf 2 years ago. The new hot spot is Nicaraugua, lots more flights being opened up to there, articles on people buying their dream places, etc. Still rough from what I gather, but some people like adventure.”
“Costa has had a lot of ‘investors’ from the US who are dumber than dirt buy places in the middle of nowhere. They are already starting to sell. It will take some time to clear out the excesses, just like in the US. The roads are rough, amenties limited, but if you love good surf, good food, and want to get away from so called civilization, it’s hard to beat.”
“I also hear Vietnam is quite a deal right now. Cheap, and good waves.”
One suggests the discussion include the pratical. “Plus info on laws and law enforcement. Don’t want to spend umpteen years in a 16th century prison just because you accidentally turned down the wrong street.”
Here’s a place that is getting cheaper:
‘Reductions of up to 33% hit second-hand house market, writes Susan Mitchell. Estate agent s are slashing the prices of property in Dublin, according to a survey carried out by The Sunday Business Post.’
‘The survey found that agents had cut prices by as much as €2 million. Price cuts of 33 per cent were not unusual across the secondhand market. Glenlion House, a 4.75-acre site on Howth Head with a three-bedroom house and one-bedroom chalet, had an advised minimum value (AMV) of €6.5 million when it was auctioned in June. It failed to sell and is now for sale by private treaty for €4.5million.No 13FoxrockAvenue in Dublin 18 was on the market during the summer for €1.6 million with Daphne K & Associates acting as the selling agents. It now has an asking price of €1,095,000 - a drop of over €500,000, or almost 32 per cent.’
Not surprising, since one out of seven houses in Ireland is unoccupied. Europe’s Florida.
History will link the Irish property bubble to them joining the Euro. The economics suggested years ago that they needed to raise interest rates to stop speculation. However, as Euro rates were primarily driven by politics of bigger Euro members, the Euro rates has stayed low. This has fuelled Irish lending much longer. My predication is that Ireland will be the 1997 Thailand of Europe.
Brilliant !!
Eastern Sierras. What about California Pines. You can either buy a lot from Eric Estrata at $17,999.99 (see http://infomercial.tvheaven.com/calpines.htm ), or wait until May 2007 for next year’s Modoc County tax sales (see http://www.bid4assets.com) and pay something like $1500.
I checked out Bishop real estate when I was up there this summer — not cheap any more (on a national scale).
At least $300k for a decent 3bd house. Five years ago it would have been maybe $100k.
I was out in Bishop this summer as well and they were advertising homes in various spots around Bishop region from #300,000 on up to 1 mil. A spot called Aspendall up the 168 hwy towards the Bishop Lakes basin featured alpine style mountain homes for about $700,000+ .
Bishop has maintained it’s population at around 10,000 and this has stayed steady for decades. The recent purchases of homes by coastal Ca expatirates are mainly second vacation/flip properties, and unless the owners landed a Gov’t job out here they probably do not live in these homes year-round. There are no jobs in Bishop area at all, just some fabulous east side Sierra Recreational
activities. It is a 6 to 7 hr commute from LA to Bishop so forget commuting.
The entire East-side Sierra would have attracted more settlement and growth had the City of LA not extracted(stolen) the water from this region(1913) and shriveled up Owens lake and the entire Owens basin into a dried-up dust-bowl. On the other hand, Maybe it’s better if this region of stark beauty with the High Sierra wall as a backdrop remains underpopuplated.
Cheap over seas? Only if you love third-world and then to live in a safe area you spend the same as a house here…and what are you going to do for a living? You want cheap? There are plenty of cheap here if you go to say San Angel, Tx or Demming, NM or Caribou, ME for starters. Even here in Austin there are plenty of cheap neighborhoods though I wouldn’t live in them if I had a family to be concerned about. I have friends who retired in Costa Rica and they get robbed every time they leave the country for their required time to re-enter with a new visa and they live in a gated community.
Europe? Where is cheap? No where unless you consider $400,000 for a 1 bedroom a bargain. This talk of moving to paradise is all fantasy.
While I agree that CR isn’t the best place, all one has to do is travel a little and it will become obvious that thousands of people already have moved, at least for part of the year. I know people in CR that don’t even come back to the US anymore. Another lives in Jamaica, but doesn’t own land.
I’m surprised nobody mentioned Belize. There are some coastal areas where land can be had for cheap. Lots of plus’ and minuses, but a citizenship can be purchased for around $25k. There is a favorable banking climate and the weather’s nice in the mountains, or on the coast in our winter months. English is the major language..
Ben - Panama is the new CR….
I never heard much good about Panama, except the about the surf and the beaches. What is land going for there?
Not sure per acre. I hear is is what CR was 10+ years ago. CR went up in last few years and P is still cheap. However, agreed that when you are talking about these countries that there is not a ton to recommend them other than surf and beaches. Certainly not infrastructure, etc…
I’ve also heard that Panama is a good alternative, from a number of people with quite varied backgrounds. Personally, I’d have chosen the Dominican Republic, Costa Rica, selective parts of Belize and a number of backwaters in Mexico first. Back-pocket is Argentina.
Yes, I am going to move where all the illegals are fleeing from…
hahaha
My dad was (he died many years ago) Panamanian and I have lots of cousins there. The country is beautiful but you have to like the tropics (e.g. rainy season, dry season). It’s a birding paradise too. There are some mountanous areas (e.g. Boquette) which have nearly perfect weather. When I was there in 2000 Americans were just starting to move into that town in special expat communities. Wonderful homes were $250K at that time, I don’t know what they would be now. I would prefer to live in Panama City myself, there are some nice neighborhoods and it’s such a small place that in minutes (literally) you are in the wilds (this is also because the canal requires a huge rain forest to feed the locks with water). Many people speak English and they are VERY friendly to Americans. The old canal zone has been turned into fancy homes for the rich. My grandparents had a beautiful home on Via Argentina which is now commercial. Panama City has been trying to revive the old town center, when I was last there they were renovating the old hotel, but my cousins said it wasn’t going to work, too much crime. I tried to find the hotel online but wasn’t successful and I can’t remember the name of it.
Don’t even think of Colon…it’s dangerous.
By the way, my aunt just moved here to the Ozarks last week. When her husband retired, they left Panama, and came to the U.S. (her husband was American). She likes to visit Panama but absolutely refuses to move back there. If anyone is interested, I can ask her why she doesn’t want to live there again. It’s certainly cheaper there and she lives on a fixed income and she has lots of relatives and friends there.
Ozarkian — thanks for your posts and yes, if just for my own sake, I’d be interested to know why your aunt doesn’t want to remain in Panama. It’s important to distinguish her worries as a former citizen (passport-carrier) of that country from other worries. It probably will be best to post your reply to the “Bits Bucket,” since it surely will be stale relative to this thread. Thanks.
I asked her tonight…and actually it turns out to be a family thing, nothing to do with Panama as a country at all.
Thanks, Ozarkian! Appreciate the info as well. We also know a few people who have moved to Costa Rica and like it very much. Have also heard some people talking about Belize and Panama. My husband was there in ‘04, and said they were really trying to bring foreign investment in. Naturally, some of the locals were’nt very happy about it as the foreigners take all the nice land and price out the locals who live very poorly compared to the expats.
Oops…the last bit was about Panama.
The Roatan Islands off the coast of Honduras might be a good one to look into for mono lingual US citizens. It was settled by the English so everyone speaks English and since its pretty far off from the mainland the usual Central American political problems never get out there. Cuba also should be pretty interesting as soon as the Castro brothers move on. I might do something there.
I wouldn’t recommend anybody buy or live in Central America after spending some time there in the mid to late 80’s. Too messed up. Believe me I know messed up places. The locals that I knew in Honduras and Guatemala who were at the top of the food chain all wanted to live or had places in the States. Its okay for visiting but long term you are going to get ripped off or worse.
But isn’t Roatan Honduras? I first lived there for almost a year in the early 60s when there were ony two cars on the island. Went back for a visit a few years ago… definitely changed in many ways and none for the better. It used to be English speaking but now best have some Spanish unless you restrict yourself to the West End… the politics can also be a killer. Check out the real estate listings on the web — Americans and other foreigners are desperate to sell… must be some reasons. Ben mentioned Belize — I’ve also lived there back when it was British Honduras and have frequently returned. The joke even then was that you keep returning because ‘one time you’ll end up winning’. The Cayes (Ambergis etc.) are very nice to visit but I’d be very careful about investing even a small fraction of my equity in the country. Belize city is an acquired taste and the ‘official’ capital, Belmopan has to be witnessed for a place not even mad Englishmen would want to live. JMHO. I like both areas but not as a place to settle.
You are right. Roatan is part of Honduras. I visited about twenty years ago and it was mostly English speaking and not very developed. Completely different from the mainland (Tegucigalpa). I think the locals were the descendents of English pirates and smugglers.
I think the locals were the descendents of English pirates and smugglers. The roots run deep. The original locals still hate the British for trading the islands to Spain for the control of Belize. One of the best diving spot in the world. I know most of the current movers and shakers from my time there and renewed acquaintances during my last visit — I wouldn’t trust any of them once money gets into play. Their turf and their rules.
Popper — any good cardiologists there? Medical facilities? Sounds intruiging.
Chip - I was there twenty years ago and the place was pretty primitive. Like the Florida Keys at the beginning of the 20th Century probably. I wouldn’t go there if I was in need of on site medical care or expected that I would be in need of on site medical care. I am sure they have some sort of local saw bones that could put you together enough for evacuation to a proper medical facility.
If medical care is pretty high on your list—wait for opportunities in Cuba. I think Cuba is going to be rocking when the Castros pass away.
If medical care is pretty high on your list—wait for opportunities in Cuba. I think Cuba is going to be rocking when the Castro’s pass away.
Cuba has very high standards of both medical and education. It has one of the highest held Bio-tek industries in the world. Mostly traded through Canada or Europe.
Cuba is a gorgeous country and after the Castro’s pass away then the Spring Break crowd will hit with a vengeance. However, the Jonny come lately crowd, will find most of the prime spots have been taken by Europeans, Canadians, Mexicans, Chinese, and South Americans. As usual America shoot’s itself in the foot then reloads to shoot the second one with its constant embargo’s. Anyone who has actually been to Cuba will see there will be opportunities but not as many as was in East Europe. All the best sites are already taken as far as hotels are concerned. You can buy in Cuba and many Cuba exiles do buy condos in Havana. There is an area called Little Miami in Havana that most returned exiles live in and is being funded by US S.S. checks. However, with the new laws passed by GWB they can only go legally to Cuba once every three years while Americans are forbidden to travel there for the most part. Go figure? Still they all go via Bahamas or Mexico and void our stupid laws that were made in the 60’s. While the rest of the world and notably China is investing big time in Cuba the US is again locked out. Also, apparently a Brazilian, Canadian and British company has found a potentially huge oil field in the Gulf of Mexico. Unfortunately, Cuba’s government could conceivably be a lot more viable after the Castro brothers. Hold the Spring Break crowd.
I have a very good friend from Dallas who moved to Quepos and never came back. Of course, he has a trust fund and doesn’t have to work. That’s another screw up of mine. I had a chance to get something down there 8-9 years ago and didn’t do it. Really nice place. But I worry about what kind of veterinary care you can get for the furkids in a place like that.
Txchick, I remember seeing some fancy, well-cared-for dogs (show dog breed types) running with the neighborhood street mutts in the suburbs of CR (I have friends who live there). People seemed to just let their dogs run around during the day. So I’d imagine that they’re not too concerned about pet care, either.
That said, Manuel Antonio is the prettiest beach I’ve ever visited, bar none.
Manuel Antonio is absolutely amazing, the national park is a must see. Lots of building going on in the MA/Quepos area as
of last year.
Ha! If you ever lived in Los Angeles, then you know what a third world is. And it’s not so bad. I’ve been to Mexico many times and always had great times. Once when I was in Guadalajara for a layover on a flight, I was told that 200,000 Americans live there. And that was way back in 1989.
Think of yourself as a world citizen. There is no law that says you cannot live in the United States if you also live in Timbuktu. I think you just have to make sure you are in the states at least 6 months per year to keep your citizenship. The bulk of your wealth can be kept based in a foreign bank though.
Right, there are a couple of lakes in Mexico around which retired folks from the US make up the majority.
Lake Chapala, Ajijic.
As a long time US expat I am not aware of any law that says that you have to spend at least 6 months per year in the States to keep your citizenship. Matter of fact children of a US citizen born abroad, even in cases where one of the spouses is not a US citizen, automatically and without incident obtain US citizenship.
As a US citizen though you are taxed on your world wide income however if you meet bona fide residence test or the physical presence test then you qualify for an $80,000 income exclusion and a housing allowance exclusion. Those are the basics and one of the big benefits of living abroad. This sounds like a great deal until you learn that no other country in the world taxes foreign source income if the individual lives outside his home country. Only the US.
No, there is no law regarding losing ones citizenship in the US. In fact it is very difficult to relinquish your citizenship as the US wants to own you forever.
That is if you have a green card. If u r a citizen you can stay wherever u r as long as u file your tax return at the local US embassy or back here. They don’t care where u live but make sure u pay the taxes.
I did a trip to Guatemala in 1995. Saw a great deal of the country but did not notice areas where US expatirates had purchased properties. One place which would be a fabulous place to plunk down a property is Lake Attitlan. An absolutely gorgeous high lake deep in the Mayan high country, with some nice remote villages.
Another possible place might be Antigua.
Guatemala is a well-watered lush verdant country with great outdoor scenery but lots of poverty, specially among the native Mayan indians.
Bill in Phoenix — I planned a trip to Timbuktu, about ten years ago, as one of my personal Franklin Day Planner Life’s Greatest Adventures “A” check marks. I had contacts in Ouagadougu, from where you set out overland on the journey. But I learned that when you get to Timbuktu, your sole reward is a photograph in front of one of those “X miles to Y” cornerstones that are common in all backwaters. Everyone I’ve known (the few) who did the trip said it wasn’t worth it.
If you want a rough simulation of a trip to Timbuktu, plan a trip to Nouackchott, Mauritania. Had a friend there — he hated it.
I have to agree Donnie Woodlief - i was shocked to read, on this blog of all places, the names of some of the places to move to escape the real estate bubble: Vancouver, Sydney, Costa Rica - all places with significant bubbles of their own!
Ocean front home in Belize $244,000
http://realestate.escapeartist.com/P-2002908/
One nice thing about Belize besides great areas to snorkel (from what I hear). There is a First Caribbean bank branch over there. It’s still a great place to escape. There are $1.4 million homes there too, but way outrageous. That’s for people with about $15,000,000 net worth and they typically have houses in other several other nations. $240k is a good range.
I anticipate prices of these coming down while American real estate tailspins. FBs will be ditching their second homes. This is when I will make my move.
Bill, you must have been posting this while I was typing about Belize. I understand that if one invests some amount in a business there, the citizenship isn’t neccesary. Sure there are expensive places, but it is that way in Central America because there are fools that pay it. I like Nicaragua, too. It isn’t terribly rough, like Guatemala or El Salvador. But your spanish had better be up to snuff, unlike Costa Rica.
Does Belize have issues with bandits and squatting the same way others do?
Yes, and banditry is bad around Belize City, especially. Just stay away from the tourist areas. If I was interested in the B&B business, this country would be on the short list.
Honestly, if a person could sock enough away in bonds, a comfortable place could be rented on a meager amount of interest in some of these places. That would eliminate the squating problem, which is huge in rural Costa Rica.
I had thought (briefly) that such a situation would be great for retirement. However, old people and bandits do not mix!!! I cannot imagine going every 6 mos and having to evict “tenants”. This may not be such an issue if you are there 12 mos/yr and have some large dogs and a gun!
I read somewhere recently the former Sandinista Leader Daniel Ortega is leading in the polls for President of Nicaragua in some upcoming election. Goverments change overnight and forgieners RE is often siezed and given to the ruling class. Rent!!!
Bill - that place looks pretty good. I suppose, though, that I can’t afford “exquisite.” At $100K, I’d be interested. Almost-exquisite is OK.
Eastern Sierra, not a good place to grow food and who owns the water rights? L.A. baby.
I like living near infrastructure in core neighborhoods of established cities and towns. Walking distances to essentials and public transit.
The automobile is big environmental and financial burden.
Best small town I Iived in, Missoula, MT. You can bike anywhere and it has rapid transit. Just don’t try to find good work there.
JTZ — it is late here, I ate a great steak and consumed a decent amount of decent cab. I’m trying to focus on your post. Is it that you want rapid-transit in a town with great employment opportunities, great infrastructure, core neighborhoods, almost no cars, walking distance to essentials and that public transit, and also JOBS? Cool. Where is that?
Gotta click yer heals two times and say… only way to get there.
One issue that heavily impacts the above is–Debateable Globality of Bubble.
Some of us consider buying abroad for many reasons (e.g. getting the money out of US currency and US banks for the beleivers in the Greater Depression, don’t need to wait for the bottom of the US market, etc).
Most would agree that there are bubbly places which will probably go down in tandem or close to the US decline, but does it necessarily follow that RE purchases everywhere are currently at an unusually high risk as the US bubble crashes? There are so many different ways (positively and/or negatively) the fall out from the worst case US scenario could effect Central and South America- I could actually see prices of RE south of the US picking up as we reach the bottom here.
The amount of noise in the data becomes unweildy as we attempt to predict the impact of events that have not yet happened on foreign economies….Because of this, I tend to think looking at Price per Square Foot is the most solid system (e.g. if I feel like it is a deal and can pay it in cash at the time of sale, let the future bring what it will)- but I am interested in other peoples thoughts/predictions.
I agree. Price per square foot and how much you can afford are bottom-line. I posted a beach area house in Belize for $244,000 above. Things like that may exist in Thailand, the Ivory Coast, Nicaragua, whatever. The question is: Is it in your budget? For me, I want it as a sanctuary if things go bad. But I don’t want that foreign real estate be all I have “over there.” I want to have several years of living expenses in the bank in the foreign country where I would buy real estate. For me, I need $1,000,000 net worth and an additional $200,000 allocated to real estate. I would keep the tax deferred part of the net worth in the U.S. and the rest I would keep overseas. I am not quite ready for my “escape” and I’m not necessarily going to wait for the real estate bottom to hit. I anticipate the bottom in 2012 in the hot markets of the U.S. 40% or more price cuts from today’s prices. This year I emphasized my investments (outside my IRA and 401k) in government securities so I could preserve my principle. It is nice to use Quicken and observe I’m actually accumulating wealth. Unfortunately Quicken is not great about calculating savings bond interest or T-bill interest. I’m within 3 years of my goal of my 2 month vacation in Central America and the Caribbean when I go house hunting. I will also consider house hunting in the northern Rockies or eastern Sierras at that time. I’ll cash out my dividend stocks and pay for my house in cash.
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Bill - I track my Investments with one big biitchin’ Excel spreadsheet I created. I use a web query to pull in all price and yield data from the web into my spreadsheet with a press of the button and everything (prices, yields, net worth) is updated across all sheets in a couple of seconds.
The Sheets within the Worksheet are:
Quotes, Prices, Cash, Bonds, Real Estate, Index, Health Care, Total, Allocation, Location, Yields, Performance, Contributions, Projection, Historical, Pensions
And the spreadsheet is synced to my smartphone too.
G
Americans moving to foreign countries and they still need to buy!!! hasn’t this blog taught the advantage of renting?
Millions of retired Americans live in Mexico and many insist on buying while the rents down there are soooooo cheap.
A friend lives in a beautiful house for $225 USD per month, his new neighbor thinks he stole his new house for $275,000.
the advantage of renting is not absolute. currently, it pays to rent because of the ridiculous bubble. in your example, it pays to rent. this has not always been the case and may not be in the future!!!
Why pay rent when you can squat?
Renting presumes long term economic stability for the economy and the landlord. You also presume to be able to move on a whim. Health issues ? Tough.
One of the main risks when renting is retiring on a “fixed” income, living 20+ more years and not having fixed housing costs. Currently renting does pay but you’ll retire and live long enough to see that advantage switch back and forth.
I bought to retire - not to have a nest egg and cash out. I have a place where we like to live and can grow old. I can assume a fixed housing expense for my retirement. I do not want to have to jump somewhere else when I retire.
My neighbor is 90 and has been there since ‘78. His taxes are under $400 a year and he’s a few blocks from our city’s community services.
Remote places look good but are they 24/7/365/20 years? Montana looks like a good place to retire until you get a bad winter. Jumping “overseas” is risk fraught. A bad administration or foriegn policy and you’ll be treated like an “illegal” with no civil rights. The way it’s going up here, they’ll be payback for the gringos in Mexico for the horrible treatment and scapegoating of Mexicans in the US.
I said something similar above. Put enough money into interest bearing securities and you can rent a nice place in some countries, indefinitely.
In Doug’s example, you would not even have to have that much $$$ - a house for 225-300 - esp if in a decent area seems pretty good to me!
Now there’s a good thought! Thanks Guys! I hate to spend money. I’ll file this alternate approach in my brain while I keep accumulating government securities the next 3 years.
Good point.
Look at rental rates versus prices for properties worldwide on craigslist. It makes more sense to rent right now by a long shot in most places. I think the issues of theft, squaters, etc. that you hear about in places like central america will be minimized when you become a world citizen like Bill in Phoenix advocates.
Why even own property in Camerica/Mexico when it is as you say so cheap to rent. If one decided to flee the US and go “native” in, say,Guatemala or Mexico and did not require a fancy life-style, i am sure that you could find cheap accomodations such as a hotel room in the less-fancy untouristed parts of Mexico or CA for $5.00 US dollars per night. If you can speak the native language reasonably enough and are comfortable with the local customs, then you could live on $15-20/day US dollars in the unfrequented outback parts of Mexico.Guat. When i was touring guatemala in 1995 there were Banks, tellers , and ATM machines just like here where you could draw out funds you have in the US. Back then their currency, the quetzales, was equal to 8/1 exchange rate vs us dollar, so indeed Guatemala was a vacation bargain.
Rent in Mexico is very cheap. Buying right now is not a good idea. Mexico is in a huge RE bubble, just like the US.
Historically, Mexican RE has not been frothy because shady property rights (even for mexicans) made bank loans very risky. Any influential government official or member of the good ol’ boys club could/can confiscate property. Establishing title is as easy as getting a government official (from Hacienda) to backdate your title and having a court invalidate the current title. There is a huge conflict in Tijuana right now. Someone has produced documents that establish his family’s half century old property rights over all downtown Tijuana. I don’t know what’ll happen, but maybe the drug lords will keep this person in check.
It seems the currency bubble has made banks overlook this unresolved problem. They are lending like these people can truly secure their title (mistake). The other problem was high interest rates hedging against the often and severe devaluation of the peso (inflation). They have side stepped that issue by lending in dollars.
I own land in Mexico and am in the process of selling it. I would not reinvest there. It’s much too risky to buy at these high prices. Sure, you can still get a 30k brick hut but in some areas, but the whole point of buying in Mexico is to raise your standard of living at a dirt cheap price. That’s no longer the case. If you want a nice house in a safe place with ammenities, you will pay through the nose. Just rent. Rents are still cheap because wages are still low.
Seriously, if you are going to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for a home, stay in the US. The crime, kidnappings, subpar services, corruption, and investment risk are just not worth it. Losing a few tens of thousands of dollars by some politicians whim is bad, but risking your whole nest egg is not worth the potential benefit. Only spend money in Mexico that you can afford to lose.
Here is a link to An LA Times article just out today which summarizes(more like promotes) investing in RE in Baja California:
http://www.latimes.com/classified/realestate/news/la-re-mexico22oct22,0,2455047.story?coll=la-home-realestate
This article provides a short to-do list of recommendations for investing in second/retirement homes in Baja. I have no comment: have been out to Tijuana/Ensanada/Rosario many times and find little appeal, though it might be better farther down toward the tip.
Its always the places I haven’t been that I fantasize about. Once I go there for the most part I realize why its cheaper. Either its dangerous/crime ridden, or you can’t even begin to make a living, or better yet its really really third world.
So since I haven’t been there yet, I fantasize about Buenos Aires! Brazil was not what I expected so I just moved down the coast. I also dream of Iquique Chile. I confess its partly because its a paragliding destionation. Also the more I hear about Chile the more I like it. Its still run by pretty much iron fisted Europeans.
Josh
I’ve traveled a lot to BA over the last 25 years. It’s a wonderful city BUT there is quite a bit of crime now (which wasn’t true previously). You do have to learn Spanish if you want to enjoy yourself living there. I don’t know how expensive it is to buy or rent or stay in a hotel as I have always stayed with friends. The traffic and smog are very bad in the city (which is HUGE). One of my friends lives in Olivos a beautiful suburb. Medical care is very, very good from my experience both from being sick there myself and from seeing my friend ill (she had incurable brain cancer unfortunately, they had all the latest treatments though…as good as any big big U.S. city). I think some of the other cities in Argentina would also be nice such as Bariloche or Cordoba or Mar del Plata. I didn’t like Mendoza much but I haven’t been there for 15 years. One thing that really bothers me about Argentina (and many other countries and even here in the U.S. depending on the area) is the many homeless dogs and cats; the dogs especially. Packs of them roam the streets at night even in Bs. Aires and they are very sad, sick, skinny and pathetic. Of course there are slums too (even in Bs. Aires) and lots of poor people, but I feel sorrier for the animals as this situation is not of their making (as a species).
I’ve spent time in Argentina and Chile. Argentina is kind of a screwball country but the south is quiet and peaceful, the food is great and the women are beautiful. Really any place besides Buenos Aires is probably where you want to be. Buenos Aires is going downhill IMHO.
If there was one thing that is a real eccentricity of American culture it would have to be the high status of pets to the point of being treated almost as humans. People not valuing pets or animals like this in other countries is something you’re going to have to get used to if you want to live there.
Some Europeans (esp. the English) have even stronger values toward pets. I don’t think pets have to be treated like humans but watching them starve to death while tourists are living it up is disgusting. This is true not only in 3rd world countries but also places like Greece. Some tourists in Indonesia (or somewhere near there) couldn’t take it any more and started up a successful animal shelter and spay/neuter clinic. I would love to do the same in Bocas del Toro in Panama.
The trout fishing is outstanding in Chile. Also ,the wine is pretty good as well.
I’ll tell you a nice part of the world that isn’t as cheap as it used to be though, is Maritime Canada. You have to be able to stand cold winters but they’re not as cold as say, the midwestern U.S. I have the one place in Nova Scotia but New Brunswick and PEI are also very beautiful and you can get places cheap there.
My daughter went to college in Nova Scotia. She went to Halifax to take a summer course, liked it so much she transferred and graduated from the university there.
We went up to visit her and were quite surprised at how nice Halifax is. Not nearly as cold as one would think. I could see living there.
I have an ocean front place in Chester. I have thought many times about just going there. It’s paid for but I just can’t take the cold. Even in the summer, the water is freezing cold. Halifax is a very nice city, so is Fredricton in NB. One of my best trading pals lives there. I wish I could stand the cold but I go into hibernation mode at anything under about 82 degrees.
Yeah, I’d much rather have some 1500 square foot stucco box in San Diego than this
http://realestate.escapeartist.com/P-2000587/
What about your extended Family ? Would they also be happy?
With that place they would be coming to visit.
Hey let’s all buy it together and turn it into a time share!
wow
Shucks, the place I sold last year was only the third time in history that it sold. Nobody from the local paper contacted me. Suppose I should be disappointed about that. Mebbe my wife took the call - I never answer the phone anyway.
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I would quickly miss living in the good ole USA. I don’t care how nice the other foreign country is.
I think most of you would too.
Alright, how about the White Mountains in eastern Arizona? Skiing, trout fishing, Mogollon Rim views. 10 acres for $30k. You could drive to California in less than a day. Or Quemado Lake region in western New Mexico, maybe even a little cheaper.
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My problem is i like metropolitan living. I want a two minute drive to the supermarket. I want a ten minute drive to an incredible sushi retaurant and some great nightlife. I want to be able to shop at designer stores if I need to buy a suit. Where am I going to find sushi and a Hugo Boss store in NM? I think this “escapist” concept sounds good on paper, but not so good in practice. Perhaps I’m just a spoiled prince.
No comment.
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i may be a “prince”, but i earned it. nobody gave me anything.
In my next life I wanna come back like Gekko, a self-made spoiled prince
Gekko, to each his own. Personally, I like fresh milk, fresh vegetables, and fresh fish, then cooking them up myself. I haven’t watched TV (other than in a hotel room for the weather) in two years. I think our ideas of paradise are definitely different.
Costa Rica, Belize, even Albuquerque, are more pleasant for me than living in the Palms neighborhood of L.A., for instance. Now if I had bought a nice spread in Newport Beach during the last downturn, that would be different. I could live with store-bought veggies for that
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Agreed. To each his own!
Gekko — I think that the gist of this thread is humor. A light moment where we, Ben’s Army, are at armistice with the outside world and indulge in a more-prolonged-than-usual bit of levity. If not, then I’m far too into the cab.
yeah - we are all fantasizing about getting away from our own rat races. However, there is nothing wrong with having a Plan C or D!
You got a link to this 10 acres?
No, but if I come across one I’ll post it. Basically both sides of any road are for sale at those prices.
Here’s a good deal on 10 acres…
http://tinyurl.com/yxnq95
Google maps doesn’t recognize that address. Neither does Yahoo. Legitimate?
Ben, I’m scouring that area. The nicest areas are still too expensive (Greer is heaven to me). There is a lot for sale right now in Lakeside, Pinetop, but it’s just North Scottsdale to me….touristy, traffic, Home Depot, etc.
And western New Mexico! That’s an relatively undiscovered jewel. It’s remote (think 2 hours to groceries), but the best hiking, weather, fishing, hunting.
Quemado lake catches my attention. Some remote uncrowded wilderness/primitive areas(Mongollan mts, Gila-Black range primitive areas) to the south for the get-away-from-civilization crowd. Missed New Mexico and most of Arizona when i did a southwest grand tour in ‘95′, concentrating on Utah and the Crand Canyon corner of Arizona. NM appears to be a remote, uncrowded, scenic state like Utah, at least from a sCal perspective.
No me Gekko. I wouldn’t miss the USA. Not that I don’t like it, but it’s got flaws just as other places do. I grew up here in the States, but I’ve lived in several countries for years at a time, and not under the wing of the US government or a US corporation, instead as a norlam resident of those places and living and working and paying my taxes there just like the locals.
Sure, there’s things I missed about the USA at first, but years later, there’s lots of things I miss about those other places, and the really weird thing is, I feel homesick for those places and not for most US cities I’ve lived. A few of the overseas spots, I even feel like I’m “back home” when I go back for a while.
Maybe I just should have got that second (or third) passport after all! Could be a handy “escape hatch”.
Right on Gekko, I’m Australian and I loved my visits to the USA…….but ultimately, there’s no place like home………..i am about to move to Canada to be with the lady of my life………Ain’t love grand when you’re prepared to freeze to death for that certain somebody.
Must really be love. Don’t think I’d be willing to freeze for mine (kidding…sort of). Congratulations!
I know people living in costa rica and some that came here from vietnam and the phillapines (where its way cheep to live). The one thing they all say is ‘live like a king over there’ but almost all of them live here. The other thing that never gets mentioned is the massive humidity… In the phillapines you can hire fanners for 5 bucks a day… and you need them 11 months out of the year! No thanks… ill take a shack in hawaii any day over a villa in any of those other places.
Prices are going up in CA also. My brother is in El Salvador which has been doing a lot better since they switched currency to the dollar, but they also have to pay about $250,000 for a decent gated community in the city. In the burbs you can probably get something closer to $100,000, but then you are living next to the shacks on the side of the road.
Guatemala is also getting to be a little more dangerous, none of the American diplomats will even drive into Guatemala from ELS, it is only 3 hrs.
Yea living overseas seems less like a peaceful retirement and more like a young person’s adventure.
” Guatemala is also getting to be a little more dangerous ”
You must be joking. Guatemala has always been dangerous. My 1st wife was from there and even she was afraid to visit after moving to the US. We use to meet her folks in Miami. And this was many, many years ago.
I was kidnapped, beat up, then released after a couple of days (and $2000 dollars wired from US) in Guatemala when kayaking there…I love the people, hate the government and military there…they can make the Taliban look benign.
“I was kidnapped, beat up, then released after a couple of days (and $2000 dollars wired from US) in Guatemala when kayaking there…I love the people, hate the government and military there…they can make the Taliban look benign. ”
I was in Guatemala for 3 weeks during December 1987(Also went in 1995). I was traveling with a Guatemalan Friend and staying with his Family in Guatemala City. We drove around the city quite a bit and everywhere there were The right-wing Military in their green khakis(they were called Kybiles/kybilis in Spanish), shouldering their rifles and automatics , all over every busy street corner and plaza in guat city. Back in 1987 Guat was really dangerous, and was just emerging from a ferocious struggle with the leftist elements, and the stories of gruesome wholesale massacres of villagers and peasants was real.
The Kybilis(right-wing military/paramilitary) were rightly feared, for they would easliy lop off heads and pull tourists/natives out of buses along roads), to be hauled off into the bushes to be beaten, robbed,raped, or worse.
Lucky i am second gen Italian with Dark hair and could blend in easily with the natives. Also my guat buddy and his family kept me safe.
This happened in 1981. Bad times.
Catherine — other than that, what did you think about the place?
“Guatemala is also getting to be a little more dangerous”
You got to be kidding. Guac is the home of the ORWDS–Original Right Wing Death Squads. If you are not connected to the military or have a security detail you are fair game for the man with the gun. This is more or less the same across CA.
There is a LOT of that in Mexico and Central America. There’s a book by Ann Auerback called “Ransom: The Untold Story of International Kidnapping” which provides a lot of details and case studies of some of the thousands of ransom kidnappings which occur each year. Yes, thousands. The statistics are quite mind-boggling, and they are also kept suppressed. If anyone truly realized the scope of the problem, the tourist industry would collapse, and nobody wants that.
I found the book while researching past the movie “Proof of Life” which, despite the ridiculous romance subplots, had a good movie lurking inside. It also has some breathtaking images of Central America and a good action sequence.
Chip,
Might be too late in posting this to you, but I loved the country. If it weren’t for the government/military problems, it would be incredible.
“Guatemala is also getting to be a little more dangerous, none of the American diplomats will even drive into Guatemala from ELS, it is only 3 hrs.”
When i was in guat in 1995 me and two other aquaintances took a rickety bus from chiquimula to the ruins of Copan just inside the honduran Border. When we got back to the guat side we missed the last bus out of the area. We were stranded on a rutted dirt road in a remote unpopulated mountainous tropical region: nearest large village was 30 miles away. We started to walk down that road as the daylight hrs were slipping away, aware that if a party of kybiles or rouge bandits happened upon us in that remote area we were cooked goose. As it happened we came upon a remote rural farm, and my guat friend was able to obain for us a ride on a cattle stakebed going into town. Never felt happier riding on the staked flatbed of a rickety truck.
Another tidbit: Was going to my Hotel at midnight after partying in a Bar in the Carribean village of Livingston on the guat atlantic coast. Was set upon by machete-welding locals: ran to the nearest house and banged and yelled like mad. This scared away the machete-welders as they were about to turn me into sushi.
Note :Livingston when i went there(october,1995) was a fascinating Carribean village with a werid ethnic mix-similar to jamaica). There were a few brave Europeans vacationing out there, and we stayed at an ancient sparsly-furnished colonial era hotel owned by an expatriate british family. Very dangeous if you strayed too far off the beaten path, but a memorial experience.
If i ever get to it,i will post my entire adventures in Guat on my own blogsite. I have it all on an ancient floppy disk.
You want cheap, just wait. There’ll be lots of cheap to go round.
I agree - in a few years, lots of places will look cheap to those who have cash.
A lot of places are cheap right now in the US, but few people want to live there. Northeastern Vermont is one area, Youngstown OH is another. If your goal is to be free and clear on a house and you either a) don’t care what kind of job you have or b) can work from anywhere, there are plenty of cheap places to live in this country.
No, the goal is to have an alternative residence overseas while still keeping a U.S. residence. In some overseas countries you may have more economic freedoms than the U.S. but not as much personal freedom. A foreign residence may provide the perfect complement to make your life whole.
For instance, some people on this blog are worried that the FBs have enough numbers in their ranks to elect congressmen who will tax savers to pay for the FB’s self-inflicted economic hardships. If a big deal of your wealth is overseas, that wealth won’t be taxed. Who says you have to live overseas 52 weeks a year? Take a 2 month vacation. Rent if you fear squatters taking over your foreign property.
Yes Bill-
that is how I conceptualize this fantasy as well- an alternate residence, a sanctuary, a safe place to go, a vacation home, and a place to put some of my money that will not likely be as affected by the US collapse as most things here. For me the fantasy involves buying overseas rather than renting for alot of reasons–I do miss some aspects of homeownership (remodeling, learning how to repair things, painting, gardening), and I like the idea of a foreign residence as a complement. Chances are I may not be able to afford it but I am thinking about taking a trip soon to check out a few possibilities so at least I know what to fantasize about….
Whoa now!
If a big deal of your wealth is overseas, that wealth won’t be taxed.
Not if ou are good at assets hiding an tax evasion. As an American citizen (or green card holder) you have to give the Dept of the Treasury a list of all your foreign financial accounts for any year you have over $10k in total in all those accounts.
Then you are also obliged to do a standard US tax return and pay US taxes on non-wage income, minus the foreign tax credit if you pay in your alternate country, of course.
You can’t (legally) just move your assets overseas and then tell the US government they can’t tax it!
(Note: Don’t mistake my stating this for me supporting some of these insane laws. I think it’s stupidity to tax Americans who go to Saudi Arabia or Indonesia and come back with heaps of money. I would think we would want to encourage this kind of behaviour, not discourage it. And don’t even get me started on the latest cock-up stupid things they’ve just come up with in that regard this year.)
Over 10k in your accounts? Show me the rule. All I know is that you must not take out more than $10k from the U.S. without reporting it to the U.S.
Bill in Phoenix — vote Libertarian. It’s in your soul, and it’s definitely not about pot.
Check out Dept Treasury form TD F 90-22.1 Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts.
Chip, I cannot vote this year.
NoVa Sidelinder and Pvb, do you use turn signals consistantly? Do you stay strictly at the speed limit or under consistantly when you drive? See what I’m getting at?
Yes, as a matter of fact, I *do* use my turn signals! Don’t you, or are you in one of those states where it’s “optional”. It’s a courtesy to other drivers as much as a legal thing, you know. But you’re right on the speed limits; however, I do that knowing the penalties. The penalties for financial crimes, as you must know, are pretty draconian in this country.
My personal feeling is that it’s none of the government’s business if I have money somewhere overseas, especially if I don’t live in the USA. If I bring the money here, OK. But not as long as it stays there. Sadly, my mind has been polluted by the conventions of all the other places I’ve lived that treat it that way instead of thinking they own the world and want their cut of it.
Thanks pvb, for saving me the trouble of pulling out my last tedious tax returns to find the rule! If BIll in Phoenix wants to now the penalties for failure to report, he can google it from there. Or wait for the letter from the Dept. of Treasury one day. (Pre-9/11 might be easy as pie to avoid it; post-9/11 the government is much keenr on tracking this stuff.)
Yes, I’m a stickler on turn signals, myself. It’s my pet peeve. I do not obey the speed limit. In fact, so many people drive 10 to 15 mph above the speed limit that one who obeys it is probably going to get the ticket for driving too slow. Okay. That was a test question. I am a “lawbreaker” because I drive faster than the flow of the traffic. If I drive at the pace, I too, am a lawbreaker.
I’ll have you note that I never ever knowingly evaded taxes. Chip will agree to this though: The Declaration Of Independence, written by Thomas Jefferson (who could be more American than Tom?) advocated revolution every now and then, because it is healthy for society. It’s up to you whether you want to try to follow all 20,000 laws in the books (there are actually more than 20,000, but that was the estimated amount in the U.S. in 1973 at the time of Harry Browne’s best seller “How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World.”). I bid you good luck in trying to abide by all the laws. You cannot.
I would miss living in the U.S.A., but I could definitely find a really nice place just off the beaten path in a first-world country (in Europe no less) for a good price. The biggest hurdle is language, but once you get past that, you’re set. Fortunately, I already speak Portuguese
I assume that people who know Italian or French could find similar places within close proximity to decent services.
The comments about Canada are pretty insightful. There’s a lot to like up there, and most people aren’t interested in it.
There are still some bargains in the U.S. of A., and if you come with a couple of outside sources of income/savings to supplement what you can make locally, things are not bad.
I think the big trick is being able to live with geographical separation from family and friends. I know a few people who relocated just a couple of hours away, and after only one year, they are ready to come back. Oh well, motivated seller is what I see them as.
Keep your powder dry, and buy a couple of web cameras (one for the family), and you’re almost there.
This isn’t bad. A little overpriced but the Hill Country of Texas is quite heavenly.
http://www.solidrockrealestate.net/properties/homes/campwood_home.htm
I was pleasantly surprised with Texas the last time I was there. I’m not expecting to find a great bargain just yet, but it is nice to look now.
Here is what I told a local realtor here in Livermore, CA: now is a great time to shop as a future buyer. All of the for-sale inventory means you can see every floor plan in every neighborhood, so that when the prices come down, you can be choosy.
He left a 5 minute voice mail on my machine spouting a bunch of “buyers market,” “low interest rates,” and “affordability products” crap. That made my day. I should have recorded it.
My wife is a horse person, so places like that always get some more in-depth research. Thanks for the link!
Txchick I also find the Tx Hill Country appealing. We are going to explore that area soon.
I agree with you, incessant. My choice in Europe would be Sweden. I studied a summer at Lund university and absolutely loved the country. It is safe, everyone speaks excellent English, people are very friendly and it’s a beautiful country. The only problem is you’d have to get used to the constant rain in the south or the cold of the north.
However, I would not move there. I’d just have a summer place. You don’t have problems with squatters so you can vacate it for months at a time. Property taxes are 1.5% if the value is less than 80k us (approx.). Foreigners can own property.
Property values are relatively low compared to the US. You can get a condo in a nice neighborhood for about $40k and $300 a month. As long as you stay away from immigrant populations, even the cheap neihborhoods are safe (although that’s becoming harder to find recently).
Sweden is definatly not cheap. $6 for a can of beer at the systembolet (Goverment store where ID is required for every purchase to check if you have a drinking or Pysc problem) and food is twice what you pay in the US. The winters are not only cold but dark. You rarely see the sun. One of the worlds highest suicide rates and everyone is depressed in the long winter. I lived there far too long. Summers are great but shortlived.
Why don’t you look into Uruguay? It is a beautiful country, mild climate, very safe (lowest crime rate in SA) It also has decent medical and very high standard of education. If you move close to the border with Brazil most people are bi-lingual. It like Argentina is very European and extremely affordable.
I have given a great deal of thought to the whole “live cheap” thing, but always come back to the basic fact that there are direct and hidden costs associated with every option. Cheap generally implies long commutes or lack of local work etc. I did find an ad for 1500 acres of western coastal Australia, along with 3/4 mile of sandy beach and 2 lakes for about $500K (US) which I must say sounds appealing, and want to end up living in New Zealand, not because it is cheap there, but for quality of life…
Exactly. I have some perspective on that because my mother lived in Papua New Guinea for awhile. NZ is paradise, the best place in the world to live in my opinion. Very expensive but totally worth it if you can get in.
I speak to lots of illegals from Central America. What I am hearing is that these countries are in complete disarray. If the citizens of these countries own anything, then either the law or the criminals will take it from them, it is a matter of who gets to them first. El Salvador had a civil war two decades ago, and the place has never been the same. Crime and corruption is rampant. Honduras is an international deadbeat country that defaulted on their loans and as a result the whole dang gov’t infrastructure, from Federal all the way down to municipal, is completely corrupt. In 2005 Honduras received debt forgiveness, but their society is now beyond repair.
Granted, I am not hearing this from the “upper crust” (if there is any) of these countries, I am hearing it from the poor who are escaping from crime and corruption infested cesspools. Columbia may well be a special case, since everybody wants to leave Columbia. There is a former medical doctor from Columbia who is now washing dishes at a restaurant in Nashville; these people want to get out for really good reasons. I am spanish speaking and I will never go South of the Border looking for ‘heaven” or “bargains.”
For many Puerto Ricans who worked in the continental USA it was their dream to buy a house and retire in Puerto Rico. Many of these people have sold their retirement homes in PR and came back to the 48 states. Even PR (a commonwealth of the USA) is not a desirable place to live in anymore. PR is no longer how people remembered it to be when they where growing up there. PR is becoming very corrupt, with the FBI trying very hard to prosecute public officials in the Federal Circuit Courts, but the task is simply overwhelming. The problem of illegal aliens in PR may be worse than in the 48 states, the island is getting inundated with illegals from other caribbean islands.
Don’t get me wrong, many of these places are still safe for tourists. Feel free to vacation in various places in PR or Mexico or even other destinations in Central and South America. (Use common sense, use the web for info.) As corrupt as these gov’ts and their police may be, they do understand that tourism is a major industry. I spent some time vacationing in a small quaint city in central Mexico called San Luis Potosi. (Very little english is spoken there, bring a spanish speaking friend with you if you want to experience this beautiful city.) Excellent food, very friendly people, very comfortable accomodations for low prices, beautiful city all around. But think twice about moving to SLP or any other place like it just because you had a swell vacation.
I suppose some of these enclaves of American retires in these countries may be safe (from criminals and police) in their “immediate areas,” but what are you going to do? Spend the rest of your life living inside the gates?
If you want to retire and get away from all of the congestion and noise it can be done right here in our own backyard. Ironically, you may even be able to do it more affordably in the USA if you look hard enough. No need to go looking across the fence, the grass is not any greener over there.
^oops I posted on the wrong thread.
Right you are tcm_guy.
There’s a damn good reason so many illegals risk life and limb to come to America from Mexico and CA and its because its frick’n dangerous in their home countries.
Lots of people in the US live their lives inside of gated communities. Fact is, if you want to make money, the US is one of the best places to do it. But that doesn’t mean its the best place to live for every stage of your life.
What I get out of this thread is that the past was generally assumed to be safer, throughout the world. I have my doubts about that notion, but I also have a big problem with overpopulation and think that the two could be linked.
I also have a big problem with overpopulation and think that the two could be linked
Nope, two of the safest countries in the world, Japan and Singapore, are also among the most densely populated.
The most densely populated country in Europe is Holland. The most sparsely populated country in Europe is Russia. Which is safer?
What really matters is economic and political stability, and social equality, and that really has little to do with population density.
New Zealand is also very safe almost everywhere, apart from a handful of nasty places you’d find in any city the size of Auckland (1m).
When I was travelling there I met locals and tourists, men and women, who actually hitchiked to travel around. Not many places in the world you can safely do that anymore…incredibly nice people.
Many, many beautiful places and not much population. Around the Bay of Islands is one of the nicest, amazing scenery and California-type weather, though not cheap. Other areas of Northland are still reasonable.
You’ve said it better than I can TCM!
Bravo!
I suspect that very few citizens of the US could really hack it in a country other than the US. A few can, and will,but the rest…..
agree, I also looked into moving to NZ (coming from Old Zealand!) for some time, and to me it sure is paradise in many ways. But it’s extremely difficult to get in if you don’t have family there or a job that is in demand (like the homebuilding industry at the moment …). Prices of homes and land have moved up a lot in the last 5 years, but compared to the Netherlands and many other EU countries most of NZ it still relatively cheap.
Playing devils advocate here, could one tell me what is the difference in moving my family thousands of miles away, having to spend thousands on plane tickets to visit back and forth.
STILL spend in the area of 250K for a home.
All for “good beach’s”
Yet wanting granite counter tops cause a laugh riot.
I’ll take northern Michigan for a cabin WITH water, no bandits for 35K.
It’s so great to see that all of you folks are in perfect health, because I don’t see anyone discussing medical care in these foreign paradises…
I mentioned health care in Argentina. It’s fantastic; as good as here, maybe better because it is much more personal. There your whole family, extended family, and friends rally around you if you get ill…
Did you ever go to Patagonia? My niece was there last year on the way to a trip to Antarctica. That’s one part of the world I haven’t been and would love to see.
I’ve been to San Martin de los Andes which is in the mountains at the east of the pampas but never traveled thru Patagonia itself. San Martin is a fantastic mountain resort, full of beautiful rich people, and a few poor Americans (because our money is worth about 3 times the peso right now). If you have ever had any desire to go to S. America, go to Argentina NOW. It’s cheap, cheap, cheap for us (or at least it was 2 years ago, last time I went). Spring (now) is a great time to go to Argentina, the summers can be very HOT. Bs. Aires is hot AND humid.
I stopped over in Neuquin many years ago. It was just a few dusty streets then but I hear now it is a thriving metropolis.
I haven’t seen a doctor in over 25 years except to have things stitched back on or put in casts but health care in Canada is great and it is also in India, in the bigger cities.
I had root canal done in Colombia- cost me eight bucks-twenty years ago, but still. Had the job checked out by I.V. League, DDS, in NY when I got back. Rave review on the work, disdain on the price. There’s plenty of competent medicine in the Third World if you’ve got a few bucks…..
health care in Canada is great
Yeah but foreigners have to pay for it, unlike the locals. If your medical insurance will foot the bill, fine. It’s cheaper than the US but not cheap like India.
I have heard that the Canadian medical system is great for everyday repairs, like putting a cast on a broken leg; but terrible (in terms of availability) for the more life threatening and exoteric procedures (out of the norm) like heart valve and organ replacements. If you need one of these procedures then you go on a waiting list. Most of the people in Canada on this waiting list die before they can get their heart valve or organ. I hear there is a total of two places in Canada that can do a heart valve replacement (I mean within the confines of their socialized medicine, there may be other places that can do it but you may have to pay lots and lots of money for it.)
Health care in omst of those places is LOTS more affordable than here. Part if it is that they don’t quite have the equipment available (e.g. MRI machines, etc), and part of it is legal (the docs aren’t doing endless useless tests on you just to keep from missing something and being sued).
If my insurance is paying, I’ll take US medical care. If I’m paying, I’ll take Australian, German, Indian. Just don’t send me to England, paying or not — I did that once and thank gawd I wasn’t in real bad shape or I’d have been done for!
This is not true for all countries. Argentina has all of the latest medical equipment, at least in Bs. Aires. When my friend got brain cancer I did extensive research to determine if she should come to the U.S. for care. The level of care she got in Bs. Aires was not only as good as she could have gotten here, and they had the state-of-the art radiation equipment, but her care was affordable, and more personal. And I found out something really kind of surprising…the number of neurologists per capita in Argentina was 3 times what it is in most other countries, and the doctors had a problem making enough money! I don’t know if this was true for all medical specialties or just this one. By the way, I had to have a small surgical procedure on my foot while I was there…It cost about $150 for the procedure, several doctor visits (including one to emergency) and medicine. I didn’t even bother to submit the bills to my insurance. This was at Hospital Aleman which is considered to be one of the best.
Acknowledged for country capitals. But compare mid-sized cities, and that’s where you might find a big difference. At least that’s what I found. I’m with you on the doctor supply problem (er, the un-problem in those places), though. I never had problems seeing a doctor (exception being London where NHS takes bloody forever) just one with a well-equipped office.
http://www.realtor.com/FindHome/HomeListing.asp?snum=1&locallnk=yes&frm=bymap&mnbed=0&mnbath=0&mnprice=0&mxprice=99999999&js=off&pgnum=1&fid=so&stype=&mnsqft=&mls=xmls&areaid=81010&poe=realtor&ct=Victor&st=CO&sbint=&vtsort=&sorttype=&typ=1&x=44&y=9&sid=077491D44D7BC&snumxlid=1069118096&lnksrc=00001
You don’t have to go to the 3rd world to find cheap housing. Just look at this cozy jewel in Victor, CO. It’s an old mining town that’s been down on its luck since about 1900, but is located in some of the prettiest mountains you’ve ever seen (overlooking all the abandoned mine tailings and derelict equipment, that is).
Here’s one of the more expensive listings in my area:
It’s about 15 minutes south of the University of Iowa.
6 Bedroom, 2 Story, 3 Bath Rooms Walk-out basement with 6th bedroom and kitchen. Hard Surface Road, 1 Acre Pond, 30×32 Detached Shop. Sq Ft: 2932 Lot Sz: 4.640 acres. $385,000
Yeah right, it should be half the price or less as most other farms around here. It is in the middle of nowhere and right on the hyway complete with skeeter pond. Maybe if all you like to do is raise pheasants and shoot them. Winter is like the North Pole and Summer is like Brownsville. Even I would not live there.
I got caught in what they called at the time the worst blizzard in Iowa history in January of 1997. I had flown with my sick cat to take her to the vet school at Iowa State in Ames. I stayed there two days with her and then had to drive back to the Des Moines airport in a complete whiteout without even a heavy jacket (it was quite pleasant when I first got there). Scariest experience of my life. 18 wheelers overturned on the road. You didn’t know where the hell you were going. I tried to use the wire fences on the side of the road as a guide to stay on the road. It took 3 hours to travel 35 miles. As much as I liked Ames (it’s really a VERY nice little town), there’s no way I’d live there.
When you fix on whether or not that listing is good value by local Iowa standards, I think you’re missing the point that Iowan is making.
It’s not in the middle of nowhere. It’s in the middle of Amish country
My point is that this is about as expensive as it gets around here. What can you get for $385,000 in L.A. or Chicago or some other suburban paradise?
By ANY standards, the land there is flat and desolate when the corn is harvested. The winds howl through more so out there than in many parts of the State, or even compared to Chicago. There is not enough land on that property to grow or raise any significant amount of anything much, esp firewood. The skeeter pond is too small to hold any good fish as the ice gets too thick during colder winters. The rumble of grain trucks going by on the hyway can probably be felt in the house. Iowa City is fun to barhop but not much else, if the students ever stopped attending in large numbers, look out. Government hospitals are a large part of the local economy and are dependant on the taxes of the soon to be retiring Boomers, 1000 more people leave than enter the State each year, and young people leave in droves. It will be a nightmare when the Boomers retire in full numbers.
Being originally from India, I can say the heathcare in big cities like mumbai, chennai, delhi is at par to the rest of the world. Immune systems tend to be less active once you have lived in the west but that issue is sorted out once you stay for an extended period of time.
India is in midst of its own housing boom and soon to be bubble. TV channels cover real estate like they do in the US. The outsourcing boom, coupled with Greenspans cheap dollars have led to massive construction projects never seen in the history of India. This has in turn led to rising GDP and fueled internal demand. Indians have a penchant for real estate along with gold. While real estate could cost upwards of $100k in major metros, I wonder how high it will go before the bubble pops.
I wish the bubble in India got discussed more but since nobody on this blog lives there or wants to live there (except me), it’s not that interesting to them.
Yes.
I’ve read some pretty amazing reports about Bangalore, where apparently there are Business Parks and some gated communities built to US standards, while literally right next door the rest of the city . . .
Ben — this has been a great thread — lively, entertaining, drew in some new voices. Hope you throw it out again later on.
Reason for having a backup escape: unfunded liabilities of the US gov, and or military industrial financial demands on the population. Those two factors will not go away with a housing bubble bursting. So, which other countries currently do not have these huge threats to a persons financial future and US citizens are not hated? Have bandaides, will travel, but if I want to own guns to keep what I have already got, that number is even lower. Do the Socialist countries of choice promise everything to their poor citizens today, and just who will pay how much as a decrease in global consumption turns into a decrease in global pay and employment? I doubt there even is a place anywhere where a person will not need guns and gates to keep what they have. The cabin for 35 thousand in MI. sounds great until you factor in the future demands of the retired Boomers. Aint no way I am gonna ride a bike in MT. winter either. It will not make a difference, the Boomers make the rules until when? Argentina may be turning around but they still have roving bands of the unemployed as far as I have read, never mind the dogs. If the USSR is an example of a fallen modern empire, how good are things there now? There is nowhere to go. There is no escaping the financial claws of the Boomers, the bandits and the gov. The inflation monster will eat all savings the tax monster does not. The well connected and the mobile underground economy people will be the only ones keeping any significant amount of their wealth. Will we all be uttering the phrase, “damn govermnt revenuers.”? Fade to black, 50’s style B-movie voiceover, “We are about to enter the new Dark Ages,… tag is now banned” ’scuse the rant.
yes, this is a point I missed in this thread (sorry for being a bit too late …), especially regarding the potential of bursting local housing bubbles. Most of the escape countries mentioned here (Costa Rica, Oz, Thailand, New Zealand to name a few) have housing bubbles just like the US and Europe. What do you think will happen in these countries when their housing bubbles, fueled by loads of EU and US flash capital, burst? Very telling that most people don’t seem too enthusiastic about Argentina, a very nice country by many standards where RE is now extremely cheap compared to 10 years ago (discount probably 80-90% in many areas).
I would choose a country that can be more or less self-sufficient, has a good standard of living, low economic inequality, is low on correction and as far as possible far away from the regions where war is a likely consequence of future political/economic troubles.
To me New Zealand looks like a good choice but there are probably a few other options. Still, it is very difficult to predict what will happen when the RE sh** hits the fan worldwide.
sorry, ‘low on correction’ above should read: ‘low on corruption’
I get people contacting me on IM unsolicited about stocks and trading and one guy who recently did is a doctor in Gran Canaria in the Canary Islands. I was interested in chatting with him so I didn’t gong him like I do most of them. He sent me a bunch of pictures of his home and the island and I have to say, that is another very nice area. He also told me that he has to try to make money in the stock market because doctors don’t make any money where he is.
I remember reading about the Canary Islands in books of essays by Barbara Kingsolver, whose writing also got me so interested in Tucson (a couple of her good books are “High Tide in Tucson” and “Small World” - I think that’s it). We have a trip to Asia planned for next year if I can get over my fear of flying after 9/11 - Bhutan, Nepal and India. I may not come back
IIRC the Canary Islands have a serious fresh-water problem, to the point where they have to desalinate sea water to meet a lot of their requirements.
and most of the Canary Islands also has a serious real estate bubble; at least ten years ago wealthy people from the Netherlands and Germany were already speculating in real estate there.
I’m an American who has lived out in Taiwan for over a decade now. I know for a fact, having read articles even in Chinese (yes, I can read Chinese), that foreigners can live/retire in Thailand very easily (in fact the government is encouraging foreigners to come to Thailand to retire). I’d recommend looking into Chiangmai or Chiangrai up north for very, very cheap land (I’ve seen foreigners lived on big plots of land in the middle of nowhere with wonderful mountain views when I went there a few times and took motorbikes rides up north). Or, you can think about all the beaches in Thailand (too many to name) to make your home. Been to Laos (great coffee and bread), next to Thailand. Great place to travel (but don’t think foreigners can live there).
I myself am looking at land in Taiwan on the east coast, but buying land is tough unless you are local or have married a local. To live in Taiwan long term, you either have to be studying Chinese at an accredited institute (there’s enough of them) for 10 hours a day, be an english teacher or any other legal worker (can then get work permit to live permanently), or marry a local person.
By the way, I’m in the investment banking industry (sales side) and have been for many years.
Yes, you can built a VERY nice home in Thailand including land for maybe $ 20.000 but there are some problems that are often not mentioned. First of all, in most of the country as a foreigner (= somewone coming from abroad) you cannot own property - this is only possible in some special areas which of course have special prices for foreigners. You can marry a native and buy the home ‘together’ but first think twice about the financial risk; many EU males have learned the hard way what the downside of this setup is. Also, I know from some people who have lived there for some time now that RE has gone up tremendously in the more attractive areas. Of course there are areas that are very cheap, but as everywhere in the world they are cheap for a good reason.
Nobody here thinks of good old Europe. There might be a housing bubble in Ireland, England, Holland, Spain, but there is certainly the opposite in Germany, especially eastern Germany.
Think about Dresden, Leipzig, Berlin, there you have big city life, all the amenities, combined with riduculously low crime rates, free health care, free social benefits, nearly free university education (500 EUR per semester).
And housing prices: take a look for yourself. They range in the four- to five digit range. I heard that apartments in Dresden change hands for 20000 EUR a piece.
Rental prices of 5 EUR per 10 sqft (1 sq m) of nicely renovated big apartments in Berlin are common:
http://www.internet.immobilien-auktionen.de/objekte.phtml
yes, in some parts of former Eastern Germany you can buy a nice home for a few thousand euro’s - around 100x cheaper than a comparable home in the Netherlands which is relatively close (at least by US standards). The trouble is: there is no work there, young people are leaving and in most of the small towns there is nothing to do. So maybe it’s nice if you don’t need a job or can work completely from home, want to live on your own and not be bothered by anyone, and maybe visit the big city a few times a month. But for most people it’s not a realisitic option. There are similar areas in other parts of Europe e.g. in small communities in Scandinavia and Spain that are struggling to survice, and where you get the home for free if you want to live and work there (usually requires that you have a family).
Hello nhz,
there are parts of the palatine (between Kaiserslautern, Mainz and Mannheim) where you can get a completely new house (200 m2 = 2000 ft2) plus 1 acre of land for about 250 kEUR. The distance to these bigger cities is about 30-50 km. This implies a 30-45 min commute (both car or train is possible) which is not so bad when compared with commutes around the bigger cities such as Munich or Stuttgart.
Check this here:
http://www.immobilienscout24.de/39098789
As I said before, especially the area around Leipzig, Dresden, or Berlin is attractive, as the living standards are high and there is enough work to be found (e.g. at AMD or Infineon in Dresden).
Also check the quality of the interior as well as of the house itself. It is waay higher than most of the American crap that I have seen. Solid stone houses, usually built to last at least 200-300 years, excellent double glass windows, the whole house being extremely energy efficient.
Wife and I used to live in Cuenca, Ecuador. Now, a lot of Ecuador is scuzzy and corrupt, crime-filled and dangeous. But, Cuenca is a city that Europeans will use their vacation time and funds to get to. Very safe city (by CA and SA standards at least), and culturally significant. Some of the most kind and loving people I’ve come across the world around.
One other place we lived is Israel, but my wife being Israeli, made it a lot easier to live there. There is of course the terrorist issue, but again in most places very cheap living (outside of Jerusalem), just hard to stay if you’re not Jewish as my wife is.
Awesome looking place! That just hit the top of my “must go to” list!
Cuenca is an amazing place. The hills and mountains surrounding are incredible (the Andes of course), culturally it is a very notable place with an incredible mix of old style European and South American. The people are very kind, and there’s also a large number of Europeans and Americans living there, seemingly full time. One of our best friends was a couple where the husband was from Germany and his wife from Italy. Also interestingly, they use American dollars as currency. The cost of living was very low (compared to Stateside of course) and we lived for next to nothing the entire time we were there.
It’s quite a place. If my wife and I were ever to do the “out of America” living thing, we’d do it there.
I have some family in the building industry in Ecuador. It is often called ‘the Switserland of South America’; relatively stable compared to most other countries in the area. The nicer neighborhoods near big cities like Quito are near EU price levels already, but further from the cities prices are still low. However, US companies are now starting to introduce mortgages there and this will sure drive prices up just like in North America.
How about this? Looks like fun
http://www.planetpads.com/public/listingSingle.do?listing.listingID=335322
I’ve been all over Latin America professionally and personally over the past 2 decades starting with 2 years in the Peace Corps in Guatemala in the late 80s then various contracts in Honduras, Costa Rica & Brazil. My wife is Chilean and we vacation there every year to take the kids back to see their grandparents and cousins.
My opinion? There are only two countries in all of Latin America that are stable enough for real estate investment. Only two. Costa Rica and Chile. Guatemala? Beautiful adventuresome country but you’ve got to be kidding me. I know at least 10 Americans who’ve married Guatemalan spouses and lived down there for extensive periods of time. Even marrying into the right family it’s still a crap shoot. The legal system is just too corrupt and if you get crosswise with the wrong people you can lose everything.
Costa Rica is getting filled up with Americans. Beautiful, gorgeous country but not really my thing.
Brazil has some fabulous places that are pretty unknown to Americans, but not Europeans. You see a lot more Europeans.
Argentina is wonderful and more modern than most of Brazil except for the southernmost Brazilian states. But the country has a long history of economic and political instability and I see no signs they have really learned their lessons. I lived in Buenos Aires one summer and it’s a fascinating city. But I think it’s gone way past its carrying capacity. The city is enormous beyond belief.
Aside from Costa Rica, I think the only country in Latin America that truly has its act together is Chile. The country is very much isolated from the rest of Latin America by deserts and wastelands to the north and the Andes to the west. So Chileans are quite insular compared to the rest of Latin America and have pretty much been going it on their own for a long time. Unlike the rest of Latin America, Chile is pretty much corruption-free. Even more so than the US I think. Giving out bribes is unheard of. Government agencies and business operate efficiently. And the economy is very robust. On the downside, there is very little tourism from the US so you don’t see many Americans at all. Not the place to go if you want to join some expat community where you can watch monday night football at the local gringo sports bar.
My wife and I talk about buying some land in Chile and every time we’re down there we look around and talk about places we might want to buy some day. Santiago is a big modern city that is not as flamboyant as Buenos Aires but easier to live in. The downside is the smog in the winter, which Chile is working hard to combat. But the geography subjects it to the same thermal inversions that plague Los Angeles. Outside of Santiago there aren’t really any other major cities of note. The most scenic city by far would be Valparaiso, which is an old decaying seaport on the central coast. The streets are steeper than San Francisco and the city is serviced by a dozen or more old elevator-trams that run up and down the hillsides. Valpariso is pretty much an untapped gem. It has seen very little development in recent years. The downside is that there is considerable crime, at least for Chile. There are smaller beach towns up and down the coast that are more exclusive where the wealthy have their weekend homes. My wife’s extended family has houses in Zapillar and Santo Domingo which are both very nice. There are also some nice smaller cities in Southern Chile that are very Germanic. Valdivia is one of them and would be a pleasant place to live.
The main issue with Chile is that it really isn’t very exciting. If you want to just get away from it all and live a simple life in a temperate climate with pleasant scenery and weather, then Chile is a great place. If you want rich culture or excitement then Chile will bore you to tears. I’m the kind of person who will be happy with some acreage in the country to mess around with and for that Chile is great. But it’s not for everyone.