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Examining the home price boom and its effect on owners, lenders, regulators, realtors and the economy as a whole.
Also, don’t forget to send in your housing bubble photos to:
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Please add HBB to the message bar to aid in sorting.
Oh, the housing slowdown will have little affect on the economy ??? NOT!
I am quite bearish on the HB stocks & short since Dec ‘05 The little 30% rally since June indicates that Wall Street
has not lost its MOJO yet… This continues to prove to me that the market conditions are sh!t and continue to
deteriorate. When the big clods get together at night little shorty gets SCREWED.
From the WSJ 10/27/06
Housing Decline Sparks Slowdown In Construction Store, Mall Demand Drops As Fewer Homes Are Built;
Weighing Economic Risks
By ALEX FRANGOS
October 27, 2006; Page A1
The unexpectedly rapid decline of the nation’s housing market will mean an overall drop in construction
spending next year, with spillover effects in areas such as job growth and real-estate development.
In a closely watched report expected to be released today, McGraw-Hill Construction will forecast the
first decline in overall construction spending since 1991. The company says the value of new construction
will decline 1% in 2007 to $668 billion, compared with an expected rise of 1% for 2006 and a 12%
increase in 2005. McGraw-Hill said the anticipated decline was due mostly to a 5% fall in construction
of single-family homes. But the overall drop also reflects a 3% slide in construction of stores and
shopping centers, a component closely tied to population growth and home-building trends.
“Single-family housing has fallen more steeply than what we had anticipated and the correction
is taking place faster,” says Robert Murray, vice president at McGraw-Hill Construction, a unit
of McGraw-Hill Cos. The industry “no longer has single-family housing to bolster total construction.”
The construction industry accounts for almost a tenth of economic activity, and its contraction could have
a ripple effect through the economy as it is a major buyer of finished products and generator of jobs.
Local governments’ ability to raise revenue through development fees and taxes, especially in fast-growing
parts of the country, could suffer as well.
The McGraw-Hill forecast comes on the heels of a report yesterday by the Census Bureau showing
that home builders have had to slash prices to sell homes. Although new-home sales for September
rose 5.3% to a seasonally adjusted annual rate of 1.075 million, the median price fell to $217,100
from $240,400 a year earlier. That was the lowest price in two years and the biggest year-over-year
decline since December 1970.
“When the big clods get together at night little shorty gets SCREWED.”
Right — the Get Shorty strategy outlived the firm that made the expression famous (Enron).
I’d like to see the $ volume of IO ARMs by year or quarter, especially those with 100% LTV. Prices have continued to rise here in central Va., and I found out why when I looked at a sample of purchase loans recorded this month. I was shocked that 33% are IOs, and another 4% are ARMS with a 30-year term but 40 and 50-year amortizations. The average rate on all ARMs is higher than the average fixed rate, with most ARMs starting at over 7%, up to 10.4%. I’ve been reading this blog for 1.5 years, but seeing first-hand that IOs are still growing like a malignancy made me very concerned for the economy.
How about a discussion of effective negotiating tactics in a buyer’s market, especially in light of the “stubborn buyer” phenomenon?
Real simple as far as I’m concerned.
Decide what you are willing to pay. Make that offer and back it up with whatever documentation you want (inspection data, market reports, knowledge of what the seller paid for the place). Be polite but firm. If rejected, move on to the next one.
“Decide what you are willing to pay.”
Txchick –
I would amend that a bit: “Decide what you are willing and can afford to pay.” Too many buyers in recent years were willing to pay what they could not actually afford.
Sorry, I meant “stubborn seller” phenomenon, not buyer.
Step one: decide what you are willing to pay.
Step two: offer that and use backup documentation to support your offer (market conditions, inspector report, your knowledge of what the seller paid for the place or owes on it)
Step three: if rejected, tell them goodbye and try the next one on the list.
You’d have to be nuts to bail any of these sellers out now.
TXC……….you are spot on. One thing I would add……..don’t become emotionally involved in the deal. (it’s only another house, and looking at inventory there’s plenty others to choose from)
You showed your true colors on the first post Realtor (TM)!
What about my suggestion triggered such a tart reply?
Nobody who reads here trusts Realtors (TM) very much.
Susan “What about my suggestion triggered such a tart reply? ”
It was not a “tart” it was a fart reply.
I think both terms are accurate. Buyers have to be more “stubborn” than sellers to effectively negotiate.
Susan posts “stubborn seller” phenomenon”
What do you expect after all the hot air the realtor pr people have been blowing up home owners rears? Look at David L. the NRA shill why would you lower your price when he says the worst is behind us?
The estlabishment in the RE biz is telling everybody this is just a bump in the road…. not to panic, so why lower you price in light of all of the offical line?
The in the trench realestate people know diffrent, but are being screwed by thier masters whisfull thinking and averice.
You deserve eachother.
simple find out when the listing ends and come buy for an additional 6% discount= sweet
Well think I “take it or leave it” will be adequate pretty soon.
The most effective negotiating tactic is the one the buyers are already using… sit and wait.
People that see prices drop 10-20% from peak and think they got a deal buying now will have blown their load and won’t be able to take advantage of all of the distressed sellers in 2008. In my area and many others there will be homebuilders auctioning off condos to raise cash to avoid bankruptcy. There will also be mass foreclosures due to loan resets. It really is going to suck to be a RE agent for the next few years due to the low volume but volume will pick up again in 2009 when prices are much lower.
Agreed. But for those who have to buy (for example, are moving and can’t find a rental that works for them), how should they negotiate? During my years in the business (which include a few booms and busts), the art of negotiating is as much about psychology as it is about numbers/data and that applies in a bust as well as a boom.
I guess I just can’t understand not being able to find a rental. I’m sure it depends on the market but in my area you can get everything from an efficiency apartment to a mansion for rent. And no matter what you rent it will not come close to the mortgage payment. You may not be allowed to paint the walls but thats a small price to pay for saving tens of thousands of dollars.
Anyone can find a rental. That’s just realtor BS.
Susan . The people on this site don’t want to catch a falling knife with the prices in many areas doomed to go down more .In this market it’s not a matter of how to dupe the seller or buyer into selling or buying but rather what is the value of a property absent a mania or a false run up.
Right now sellers cannot see that prices with go down for a number of years and that the thrill is gone for buyers .
The builders of new homes will be more willing than used home buyers to discount for the market right now in part due to the false hope given by the realtors/NAR in the news about a spring bounce for 2007.
Right now buyers and sellers are in limbo regarding prices so I predict a dead market until it’s clear that the uptick market prediction for 2007 doesn’t happen .
I don’t think a real estate agent should encourage panic buying or selling just so they can make a commission . Also I don’t think realtors in the news/NAR/CAR should be giving false hope for a spring bounce in 2007 . It would be better if realtors just said ,”here is the bathroom .”
Totally agree with TxChick. It’s a ridiculous statement to say you can’t find a rental that will work. It’s, in fact, EASIER to find a rental that works than a house (IMO). If for no other reason, then the fact that it’s only temporary makes it work.
Wizard posts
Susan . The people on this site don’t want to catch a falling knife with the prices in many areas doomed to go down more .In this market it’s not a matter of how to dupe the seller or buyer into selling or buying but rather what is the value of a property absent a mania or a false run up.
Now that was the best post of the week.
txchick “Anyone can find a rental. That’s just realtor BS. ”
Really! There should be plenty of empty house that flipper, investors and FB have. I would add since I sold my place in summer of 05′ I have moved twice. Both times my wife and I started out in the morning about 10 am and by early afternoon had a deal. Found a place, put a deposit down filled out papers etc. then went back home before dinner.
You are right. That is pure BULLPUCKIE!!!
Gotta love Txchick straight from the hip and armor piercing.
“But for those who have to buy (for example, are moving and can’t find a rental that works for them), how should they negotiate?”
Find a rental they can afford. Don’t buy a home they can’t afford using the crutch of suicide financing.
>But for those who have to buy (for example, are moving
>and can’t find a rental that works for them)
There will always be sellers that *have* to sell (or risk foreclosure). I have yet to see a case where someone *has* to buy (because of relocation, etc.) I don’t get what yo mean by “can’t find a rental that works for them”…do you mean it’s not the ‘perfect’ rental? I don’t mind renting a semi-perfect rental house when the monthly outlay is 50% of buying (and I don’t have maintenance costs, etc. to deal with).
Susan,
In my market, no one “has to buy”, because stubborn sellers who are determined to wait the market out are placing 4 and 5 BR SFH’s on the rental market. So if a family is relocating from out of town, they don’t have to worry about being squeezed into a small apt. til they find their dream house at the price they want.
Now, a question for you:
A couple of weeks ago I politely informed an agent who was sending me listings that I was going to suspend my home search. I told her that it is disconcerting for me to see listing prices dropping within a day to a week after my first visit to the place . In other words, this doesn’t seem to be a good time to throw my cash on the table, when the trend is definitely DOWN. Her response to me: Good Luck.
How would you have responded to me had I sent you that e-mail?
(BTW, that agent was not someone I had chosen. She
“assigned” to me when I showed interest in a Realtor.com house.)
It could have been generic and innocent-enough: a “good luck in-the-rest- of-your-life” sort of meaning, or “good luck when you decide to resume your home search. ” But if she meant “good luck finding a house you want at the price you want to pay,” then she’s not a good business person. A well-informed agent would leave the door open to you by telling you that you are wise to wait to see how things play out in the coming months, yet feel free to contact her if you elect to restart your search.
Although I know all too well that many here like to lump all realtors into one “evil” category, there are good ones, bad ones and everything in between. In my opinion, the most valuable thing they can tell you about is location and how that impacts prices in any given area. Finding the best “deal” is not necessarily the wise way to approach buying. Finding the best place in the best location that fits your budget needs (and, of course, is a fair price) would be the right path, experience tells me. Those properties give buyers the best shots at a fair appreciation over time.
What baffled me even more is that I’m a cash buyer; theoretically that would give me some leverage in negotiating with a seller.
Anyway thanks for your response; I agree with you that she could have left the door open to me. I also know of one or two honest realtors, and I may look them up when it’s time for me to “pull the trigger”.
Hi Susan, for what is worth, in order to get some deals done, realtors should start by making the math between buy vs rent to those “stubborn sellers”.
For example, a client wants to list property for $1M, HOA $500/month and $12K/year taxes, and realtor finds that similar properties are renting for less than $4K. The conclusion is abvious: you dont need a “buyer”, you need a “miracle”….
“Finding the best place in the best location that fits your budget needs (and, of course, is a fair price) would be the right path, experience tells me. Those properties give buyers the best shots at a fair appreciation over time.”
The thing that sticks in my craw is the Realtors’ (TM) dogma, embodied in your post above, that it is somehow essential to buy a home. I understand how an owner who listened to his Realtor’s (TM) advice to stretch the family budget in order to purchase an unaffordable home using an Option ARM loan might soon find himself in a position where he needed to sell.
When purchase prices are as out-of-whack with rents as they are in most places in the USA where there are existing homes, the best shot at fair appreciation over time is to rent until purchase prices are back in whack. We are a long way from that time where I live.
Housing Wizard said…
“I don’t think a real estate agent should encourage panic buying or selling just so they can make a commission . Also I don’t think realtors in the news/NAR/CAR should be giving false hope for a spring bounce in 2007 . It would be better if realtors just said ,”here is the bathroom .””
Absoulutely. And you folks are DEAD ON when explaining the rent strategy to Susan. Of course, Susan is trying to figure out how she’s going to eat the next few years, and that’s why she asked the question.
But back to Housing Wizard’s comment.
That’s exactly what the NAR/CAR/VAR etc. SHOULD DO, but won’t do.
David Lereah is hell bent on sending himself up to the coming senate hearings about this debacle. The guy is simply an attention-whore. Attention-whores, by the very nature, do and say things just to get attention. It isn’t really important WHAT they happen to be saying, it’s just important that they get LOOKED AT. In fact, they might even do things that are dangerous for attention, or life threatening, or things that might cause them long-term health problems…
LIKE A CLASS-ACTION LAWSUIT and a roomful of politicians QUIZZING THEM ON CNN.
All these folks, and probably Mr. Watts too, will end up at those hearings.
We’re just getting started…
Susan posts ” But for those who have to buy (for example, are moving and can’t find a rental that works for them), how should they negotiate? During my years in the business”
Good Goddamm Lady, how the hell did you ever do anything? Could not over come any problems to make a deal work?
In you many, many, many, year’s of working in this field how many house’s did you sell? My guess if the moon and sun alinged perfectly about 3…. and one was your Mom’s.
Effective negotiating tactics in a greater fool’s market = don’t buy yet; wait until prices have stopped bottoming out at a level where the homes pencil out as investments and relative to the local income base, or else try to catch a falling knife.
GS……..good old fashoned low balling gets a lot of results in this kind of market. By low balling I mean -50%.
So they say no…….so what.
I’m sure there will be some monkey fall out of the tree eventually.
If enough people do it just watch the effect.
Housing has become a business deal, no emotions and I mean NO EMOTIONS……..just business. You want to sell? ok……..here’s my cash offer.
Next please
Should we unioinize, form our own political party and take our message to every town across the U.S.?
Should there be any recourse for statements made will clearly be proven wildly wrong? By using words like “probably” “likely” “could be”, these figureheads are intentionally giving themselves a ‘way out’ come judgement day.
In my mind, if you’re lying, you’re lying. These people are in a position to hurt people. Buying now could financially cripple anyone for life, let alone an unsuspecting and un-real estate-educated couple that only reads the main pages quotes.
Thoughts?
I agree, and we all know they are flat out lying to us. And you say people are being hurt, which I know is a fact (I just had a friend buy a home 2 months ago, could not talk him out of it, probably already 5% down from purchase price - In Palm Beach county, BTW).
However, what is the other option. If they came out tommorow and said what we all know to be true (homes are going to drop back to historical norms, adjusted for inflation. Those of you in the bubble zones, your going to lose about 50% of the value in your home), the devestation would be much worse. Those who bought the homes would be totally unable to sell them, except at a 50% discount (which is where they should be). Consumer confidince would fall through the floor; banks would tighten credit like crazy, cats and dogs living together…. You get the idea.
Anyway, I believe they are really using the caveat empour (I know that’s misspelled), buyer beware. We are going to tell you everything is ok, and if your dumb enough to believe us, so be it. It hurts fewer people; so they take that approch.
Either way they spin in, many, many people are going to be hurt. What they are doing now is damage control, trying to give people time to make the adjustment and get ready for the “reality” of home prices. Unfortunately, that’s creating a slow slide in home prices. But, honestly, it’s the only way I can see them doing it that will not destroy the 60-70% of Americans that own homes. It would be mass hysteria if some talking head came on TV and really told people that this was indeed going to happen.
I don’t agree with it, but at the same time, I can understand why they do it.
I really appreciate your reply. Thanks.
I have thought of it that way…and I guess it would be much like a general going into battle. I would imagine he wouldn’t come out and say, “I would estimate that about half of you are going to die.” You have to try and build people up and keep them from being scared.
This one is going to be different because of this blog. The amount of respect I have for this place is amazing. I was about to buy a home and pulled out at the last minute because my ‘gut’ said I needed to do more research.
This site was my savior.
This site and ones like it, are going to be the reason that a lot of people are saved from believing the obvious lies that drug the nation into things like the Great Depression. Without the information age upon us, it’s hard to imagine what the fallout would be…and how many more people might get hurt. If it wasn’t for better information, I imagine the pundits could have dragged the prices higher for many more months.
Isn’t it ironic that the .bombs led to the rise of housing…and it might just be internet technology that saves many of those who might have otherwise bought high.
Thanks Ben J. I owe you.
I don’t think the devastation would be worse - just quicker, and thus IMO less painful.
I don’t think there’s any need for the “experts” to declare the end of the world, or even things as bad as say 40-50% drops. But at least do better than “we think we’re bottoming out” which is an outright lie. Seems to me that the best course of action would to just simply state that things are getting worse (i.e. prices are declining), we don’t know where or when the bottom is, and leave it at that. In reality that’s the truth - even those of us on the blog predicting 40-50% declines don’t really know that’s what’s going to happen, due to a myriad of other factors like inflation, other potential bubbles popping up, or the opposite possibility of an impending huge depression that might take prices down 70%.
Agreed, the same thing is going to happen regardless of what they say (which is why I always laugh when people blame the media for the bubble bursting). Its not the media or the blogs, or any factor other then the underlying economic rules that have housing on this one way train to hell right now. If they came out and really told people what was going on, the correction would occur much more quickly; we would find the real price in homes very quickly, and the correction would be over. But unfortunately, the fallout from that would be awful. People would feel themselves losing 50 grand a day on their homes (they are losing it anyway, just not that fast).
People like long, slow pain. Credit cards are the perfect example. Instead of paying 2K for the TV, you pay 4K, but over 8 years. And most people choose that!
There is just a whole host of problems that would pop up from this bubble popping too fast (think stock market crash). Appraisers would have no real way to value property, taxes would just be f**ked up for a long time (2 people in the same home, one paying double because he bought last year, everyone and their mother asking for a reappraisal at the same time), and the psycology of losing 100’s of thousands in a few months time… Just too much for people to take.
Trust me, I would love for them to come out and get it over with. But I just don’t think that the general public would be able to take the repercussions of that action.
Listen, I’m for honesty and like to consider myself an honest person. But IMO perfect honesty would require each of us to gratuitously walk up and insult people by telling them we think they are ugly or stupid. Plus, I don’t try to rape people in business dealings and I would never commit fraud, but if I’m selling a company, a house, or whatever, I’m going to put the best spin on it to get the best price possible. And if I’m buying I’m not going to extrapolate to the best case scenario. I’m going to consider what could go wrong. The root of the old saw of buy low and sell high is that if you’re buying you think you are right and the seller is wrong, and vice versa. And I don’t know too many people that are going to pay $500,000 for a Toyota Camry or say I’ll let you have my Bentley for $10,000. Caveat Emptor is the basis of living in the real world, including going to a store and having the sense that what you’re buying is worth roughly what you’re paying for it (or walking away).
People need to have the critical thinking skills to look at any potential transaction and ask themselves where is the self-interest of the other parties to this transaction? Are their interests aligned with mine or not? If they don’t do this then they will get taken and it has been thus throughout history.
That said, with the REIC, I think there are a couple (or 3) different camps. Those that are deliberately lying to promote their self-interest (think DL, financial engineers who pushed neg ams), those that have drunk the koolaid themselves and believe it (late to arrive realtors that have bought a bunch of RE themselves) and those who didn’t give it much thought on a macro level but were happy to be where the profit was while it lasted.
For the average Joe it can be pretty hard to prove intent and there is “plausible deniability.” For people like DL and others either public scorn, loss of their career, and for some possible jail time or financial penalties may be in their future. But anyone who has lived to the age of majority and is such a fool to blindly follow what someone else tells them in such a huge transaction as buying a house almost deserves to get taken to the cleaners. Anyone with a brain has to be a bit of a chessplayer and consider the angles, other’s motivations, and be able to assess odds of success. Personal responsibility for staggering stupidity can’t be legislated away.
Packman ,you are so right my friend . One of the reasons why the mania got out of control was this ,”buy now or you will be priced out forever “,crap ,or the get rich quick in real estate crap . It’s not the realtors position to make market predictions up or down or induce panic buying or selling , (most realtor codes state this clearly ).
When the real estate market became a cheerleading rally market and a National campaign to get buyers to buy at any price on any loan they couldn’t afford it became a false mania .
A correction is taking place and the people in the news really can’t say where the stable prices will be in any given market . Alot of it depends on what the demand for houses will be for years to come .
By the way ,I think its OK to make predictions and give opinions and data on a housing site because I don’t have a client realtionship with the readers .If I was out there selling real estate I would be very careful about what I say to buyers and sellers and I would make sure I gave them true data rather than spin or hype .
From CNN: “The U.S. economy grew at a slower than expected 1.6 percent, weakest in three years.”
Now how is this possible?? Caterpillar showed amazing earnings and my neighbor just put in Granite Counter Tops. I’m baffled.
It must be those damn poor illegal aliens and just married gay couples underbidding houses! Vast wingman conspiracy!
Market will probably boom today on the “soft landing” confirmation. Expect 3rd quarter GDP growth to be revised down November 29th conveniently after the elections!
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/orl-asececon27102706oct27,0,5832687.story?coll=orl-home-headlines
Any surprises in this week’s housing data?
The fact that the Western region is still UP YOY for existing home prices, and that CA as a state is (slightly) higher again in percentage terms.
Perhaps those who lose construction jobs in the housing bust can move to the border to put up our $1.2 billion, 700 mile national fence.
“The border’s total length is 1,951 miles (3,141 km)”…typical Republican job, overbilled and undermeasured.
They need to leave room so that they can create jobs with the next economic screw-up…
Steve, they didn’t appropriate any funding for the fence. They just authorized building a fence. So it is just a political stunt before the election. No $ = no fence; simple as that.
Good call… Just musing…
The Great Wall of China…the Berlin Wall
What does the US and Israel do…build a Wall.
Kinda makes you feel like democracy is headed in the right direction for our kids…live in a gated community world, display your National I.D., the template for the modern Rome looks just like the O.C.! Safe, secure and charity for the poor.
Put another brick in the Wall.
Topic for the weekend:
How high home ownership and high priced housing, produces high quality communities…and generates higher paying jobs.
Start this template in New Orleans. See what it does for the demographics.
>Start this template in New Orleans. See what it does for
>the demographics.
Now wait a minute…are you advocating theat New Orleans be kept “chocolate” (as the mayor had said) no matter what? Or are you saying that us, *ahem*, ‘darker’ peoples have no ability to be ‘the gentry’? Just wondering…
arroyogrande,
No, just that Katrina “leveled” the place, just wondering where the new walls will be built and who will be able to afford to live behind them.
Not only no funding, they authorized the president to shift any funds authorized for the fence over to any other homeland security project, thus ensuring it won’t get built. At least it won’t get built under this president since he is the main honcho for the SPP (www.spp.gov) agreement that basically is an attempt to combine the U.S., Mexico and Canada into a European-like North American Union.
Steve posts “Perhaps those who lose construction jobs in the housing bust can move to the border to put up our $1.2 billion, 700 mile national fence.”
I doubt it. I think the Mexicans will get that job.
Ben, can we please have a topic on Casey?
http://www.iamfacingcoreclosure.com
Is his site down again?
I’d like a topic on money supply. We always post that the Fed is inflating away our dollars like mad and, indeed, we have seen charts posted that show estimated M3 to be exponential over the last few years. However, when I look at the M1 and M2 numbers from the Fed I see only modest growth in demand and savings accounts. Could it be that M3, which includes deposits and forms of credit not in banks, is only exponential because of all the derivative and credit obligation products? And that what we perceive as an exponential increase in money supply really has nothing to do with the Fed “printing” more money? I’d like the collective minds here to explore this.
The bad news about homebuilders is constant. It is almost a drum beat. Yet the prices of the homebuilder stocks rise day after day. Sometimes an HB who just disclosed poor results will drop a bit but the next day it goes up.
What gives? Let’s have a full discussion of this phenomenon. Is the government manipulating the stock market in order to attract votes in the upcoming election? If so, how is it done? If not, what is going on?
Instead of people saying they don’t believe the government would do such a thing let’s explore what is actually happening.
The thing is, the housing market is stabilizing…
“Housing Shows Signs of Stability in Terms of Collapsing”
http://www.minyanville.com/articles/index.php?a=11504
“Is the government manipulating the stock market in order to attract votes in the upcoming election?”
My guess: The agenda is broader than the election. Asset price appreciation has been elevated to a national security concern. If evidence from the stock market supported the idea that we are headed into a recession, then the economy would head into a recession, so keeping those stock prices up helps keep us all confident, employed and content.
>Asset price appreciation has been elevated to a national
>security concern.
It’s ‘The Greys’ I tell you. They all own property in California. Shhhh!
I would like to hear about places that haven’t seen a drop in prices yet AND why that is (jobs, city enhancement projects, new roads planned or being built, colleges planned, etc).
Sorry for the long post, but this could be a good topic.
In late 2005 (November) a local SoCal Realtor posted this information to refute the housing bubble fears. I believe it is a good snapshot of what was being said in support of the mania and a great topic to discuss this weekend.
“YOU MUST READ THIS TO UNDERSTAND WHERE WE TRULY ARE AT IN THIS ORANGE COUNTY MARKET
Orange County Real Estate 2006 Economic Report…
Why the Housing Bubble is Bogus!….
Updated on October 31st - 2005…
The following is the outline Gary Watts is using in his current talk on the housing market. It shows why demand for housing continues to remain strong while supply is shrinking. It explains why the forecasting of housing declines by the pundits are wrong, once again, and why real estate values throughout most of California should continue to grow at a 15% appreciation rate. If your wondering how often Gary has been right, here is his record for the 21st Century.
Year ….Pundits …Gary …..Actual
2000 ….8.0% ……12.5% …13.0%
2001 ….7.7% ……12.0% …10.1%
2002 ….2.8% ……10.0% …16.8%
2003 ….2.0% ……15.0% …19.1%
2004 …-2.7% ……25.0% …24.8%
2005 …-7.4% ……15.0% …16.1% as of August 2005
His record has been very good and it goes back to 1989 when he told the real estate industry that their Party was Over and real estate would turn downward for at least 5 years losing close to 30% in value! He became known as Dr. Doom & Gloom and Scary Gary - until his 1996 forecast. It was then that he said the downturn was over and we would be in for another great run-up in real estate values that may last 10 years or longer!
And now, his current talk to the real estate industry . . . “Why the Housing Bubble is Bogus!”
I. Historical View of Bubbles
A. The last nationwide bust of home prices occurred in the late 1930s!
1. In the past 30 years, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation counted 63 home-price run-ups in various cities but only 9 of these ended in a bust - all being regional! 86% of the time, the run-ups in city home prices did not end in a bust
2. In the past 25 years, the FDIC says there were 54 instances of regional housing booms (Defined as 30% or more in appreciation - happening in 3 or fewer years)
3. During the same 25 years, the FDIC found that a “bust” occurred only 21 times (Defined as a 15% decline or more and happening over a 5 year period)
62% of the time, regional booms do not end in a regional bust!
4. A joint study by both Columbia University and the Wharton School of Business found that the bubble is a myth! The growth in housing prices of 46 single-family markets over 25 years is due to basic economic fundamentals, strong incomes and low interest rates!
5. In the past 30 years, there were only 9 years when home prices did not keep pace with inflation - those years were in the early 1980s and again in the early 1990s.
Since 1970, the median home price in the U.S. has never gone negative!
B. California Housing Bust of 1990 - 1996 was caused by a huge decline in aerospace and defense jobs.
1. In the mid 1980s, President Regan proposed a Star Wars defense project. California was receiving 1/3 of all defense contracts with 40% of that total going to northern California and almost 60% going to southern California!
a. The builders began large housing developments to meet the employment demands and built these tracts based upon the economy of construction
2. November 9, 1989 - the Berlin Wall came down, ending both the Communist regime in the Soviet Union and the Stars Wars program. The major defense contractors, followed by the smaller sub-contractors, began massive lay-offs.
Southern California lost 750,000 jobs in 3 years!
3. The builders’ supply of empty and unfinished housing rose significantly; developmental land sat vacant; foreclosures began. By the end of the decline, many properties lost 30% of their value!
II. The 21st Century . . . and “Bubble Talk”
A. In the latter part of 2001, the forecasts for 2002 began with predictions of a “burst in 2002″ and significant declines in housing prices.
1. The impacts of the dot com burst were still lingering then the terrorist attacks hit the U.S., leading to major disruptions in the economy and hurting employment. Additionally, we began fighting a war in Afghanistan!
2. When 2002 came to a close, real estate had gone up 7.8% in the U.S., while home prices rose 14.6% in California. Northern California home prices rose 15.6%; Central Valley prices were up 13%; southern California prices rose 19.3% and Orange County prices rose 16.8%.
B. The Housing Bubble talk became more heated in the forecasts for 2003, with the introduction of the idea that supposedly higher interest rates would cause our over-priced real estate to finally burst.
1. Since we were heading towards a war in Iraq, it was thought that the resulting bigger deficits would mean rapidly rising interest rates, which would hurt homeowners with adjustable rates.
2. As 2003 came to a close, rates declined and real estate prices continued to rise, with the U.S. going up 8.1% and California going up an amazing 19.4%. Northern California cooled by rising only 11.5% (dot com bust), while the Central Valley and southern California were up 20% and 21.9% respectively. Orange County went up 19.1%.
C. With 2004 just around the corner, other forecasters began jumping onto the bandwagon with negative forecasts for housing price declines of 2.7% to 10% per year for the next 2 years.
1. According to these forecasts, because we were in a war with Iraq, interest rates were definitely going to rise. One forecaster said “the California economy is rolling along on a false sense of wealth”. The affordability index was dropping, and the predictions were that buyers would have trouble qualifying for loans and the bubble would burst.
2. 2004 . . . interest rates did not rise: they actually fell. Real estate went up 10.4% in the U.S. and up 20.9% in California. Northern California prices rose 18 %; the Central Valley gained strength at 19.3% and southern California was up 22.5%. The big winner was Orange County, where real estate went up 24.8%!
D. At the end of 2004, the “experts” knew the real estate bubble “burst” was going to hit hard next year, with home prices dropping 8% to 15%. Why? Because interest rates would reach 8%.
1. With the affordability index reaching record lows and the price of oil doubling, they thought adjustable and interest-only loans would hurt buyers and create foreclosures.
2. Year to date for 2005, rates are lower than a year ago and U.S. housing is up 15.8%. These lower rates added 8.7% to a buyer’s purchasing power. California has gone up 18.1%. The big winner this year was the Central Valley, skyrocketing 29.6%. Northern California is up 16 %, while southern California has risen 17.0%. Here in Orange County, resale homes
and condos have gone up 16.0% and 20.1%, respectively.
III. Forecasts for 2006
A. The pundits are at it once again with their 2006 forecasts, which are not pretty! They are predicting
an increase in interest rates due to the volatility in oil prices, the protracted war in Iraq and the
costs of Hurricanes Katrina and Rita.
1. They now claim that housing prices should decline 7% to 10%. Some are reporting that
California real estate is over-valued by 40 to 45% and that a major recession will occur in 2007!
2. One local university wrote this past June (regarding their 2006 forecast for real estate):
“We understand why this forecast might be met with cat-calls. Our inability to
accurately forecast housing prices the past several years does not leave us with
In the real world of human knowledge, to be wrong by such a large percentage, for such a long
period of time is taken as an indication you don’t have a good grasp on what you are estimating!
(tweaking a quote from Michael Crichton’s fictional novel: State of Fear)
a whole lot of credibility”.
B. What the forecasters should NOT be looking at: 1st - Affordability Index
1. This index assumes a buyer has no equity down payment and is putting down 20% to buy.
In the U.S., you would need an income of $50,650 to afford the median priced home of $220,000, which would limit the ability to purchase a home to only 45.9% of the population.
2. In California, only 16% would be able to buy, provided they have an income of $125,670.
In southern California, family income falls short by $67,000 to buy a median priced home.
Only 11% can afford a home in OC with an income of $164,220. It gets worse in Sonoma,
Santa Barbara and Napa at 7%, and San Francisco at 4%. Only 1% can qualify in Santa Cruz. In the past 5 years, California residential equity has gone up by $1 Trillion! In that time, Orange County residential property prices have gone up 118%!
3. Today’s buyers have equity and, with lower interest rates, their mortgage costs are lower than they were in the early ’80s when they represented 30% of household income. Today, mortgage costs only average 17.5% of household income!
Sellers received a net of $220,240 from the sale of their home - an all time high! Repeat buyers’ down payments average $119,000, while 1st time buyers have average down payments of $47,000!
4. Last year in California, we sold 33,107 million dollar homes. This year, we will easily exceed 40,000! Here is a list of the top 10 median prices by zip code in California:
(1) Atherton ————— $2,496,533
(2) Santa Barbara ——- $2,176,251
(3) Rancho Santa Fe — $2,144,254
(4) Newport Beach —– $2,046,577
(5) Ross ——————- $1,910,263
(6) Santa Monica ——- $1,749,834
(7) Beverly Hills ——— $1,582,886
(8) Diablo —————— $1,452,500
(9) Belvedere Tiburon — $1,421,336
(10) Los Altos ———— $1,392,522
C. What the forecasters should NOT be looking at: 2nd - Rising Interest Rates
1. Huge employment gains are causing a gushing of money into the Treasury; funding requirements were reduced by $59 billion for the July/September time period.
2. There is a global savings glut that has translated into heavy competition to lock in long term yields. Foreigners purchased $71 billion of T-Bills in the last quarter. Pension funds, insurance companies and public/private corporations are all trying to off-set retirement obligations. We also have 78 million baby-boomers looking towards retirement and converting IRAs, 401Ks, Roth, Sep IRA and other retirement accounts into income funds..
3. Add to this a the fact that excess manpower and machinery are being reduced in most industries and you can begin to understand why the core index is 2.2% vs. 1.9% a year ago.
Even with all the oil price surges, the consumer price index is at 3.6% - well below the 4.2% historical average.
4. This helps explain why mortgage payments are now 8% less (in the U.S.) than they were in 1989, and .02% less (adjusted for inflation), than they were in California. Fixed rate loans are at 5.71% vs. 5.83% a year ago. Adjustable rate loans were 4.0% a year ago; today, They are only 4.45%.
5. Even if interest rates were to rise, it would not affect most homeowners. Here’s what the Mortgage Bankers Association tells us about home loans in America:
a. 35% own their home outright - so no interest rate problem there;
50% have fixed rate loans - many refinancing to lower rates with fewer years;
15% have adjustable rate/ interest - 8% of those being high wealth income earners.
Therefore: Only 7% of all mortgages are rate sensitive!
For housing prices to decline, a majority of households would need to have adjustable rate loans that were exceeding 8.5%!
b. Another way to look at this is to note that, out of $7.3 trillion in mortgages, only $83 billion are adjustable or interest-only loans!
c. Today, 1/8 of homeowners spend 50% of household income on housing, while 1/3 spend just 30%.
6. The media only talks about the explosion in housing debt. Homeowners’ equity growth in the 1st quarter of 2005 was up over $300 billion in the U.S. Today, we have $16.6 Trillion in household value vs. only $7.3 Trillion in mortgage debt.
This is a 57% equity position - a fairly large buffer against price declines!
7. This also explains why foreclosures are going through a 9-year decline and are at a record low. The U.S. foreclosure rate is 1.0% - the lowest in 25 years. “Expensive” California is at .17%- the lowest in the nation! Through August of 2005, 33,868 homes were sold in Orange County in 2005, and only 81 of those were foreclosure sales!
IV. Looking at Reality- Demand vs. Supply. You cannot have a housing bubble when demand exceeds supply!
A. Demand for Housing - Current housing boom has lasted 13 to 15 years!
1. In 1990, 2.9 million existing homes were sold in the U.S. Today, existing homes sales are on track to reach7.29 million. In California, repeat buyers make up 2/3 of the market.
Demand for existing homes has grown 114% - while supply has fallen 4%!
2. The new home market (inventory relative to pace of sales) is near its lowest level.
New home sales would have to drop by over 33% for over a year to reach equilibrium.
New home demand is up 143% - with only a 23% increase in supply!
3. Last year, California developers built 210,000 units (homes/condos/apartments). This was a near record, yet still fell 40,000 to 50,000 units short of the demand. Half of this shortfall occurs in southern California!
4. The State population growth rate is 1.6%, with 600,000 more people added last year. Over the past 3 years in southern California, the population has increased by 1.1 million!
5. Four of the 10 fastest growing areas in the U.S. are located in California. The #2 spot goes to the Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario area - up 15.7%. Stockton is #4 at 14.4%, and the # 8 is the Sacramento-Roseville area up 11.5%. Bakersfield is #10 with a 10.7% growth rate.
6. In the next 10 to 15 years, 3.5 million more people will reside in southern California. That is the current population size of Orange County!
Orange County’s housing demand is 15,000 (+) units per year but, in the last 12 months, only 4,159 single family residences and 3,917 condos/apartments were built.
7. This demand is coming in waves, the 1st wave being the baby boomers who are now in their early 40’s and late 50’s. They found a way to mix leisure with work and are not ready to fully retire - they have money and income and are still investing in real estate.
a. As investors, they average 47 years of age, have an average yearly income of $85,000 and were responsible for 23% of all sales last year.
b. As 2nd homes purchasers, they are approximately 55 years of age, are making $71,000 yearly and were responsible for 13% of all sales in 2004!
8. The 2nd wave of home buyers are predicted to grow at a rate of 1.17 million per year for the next 10 years. They are 1st time home buyers (median age 36). Those purchasing upscale properties have a median age of 45.
9. The 3rd wave of home buyers is the largest group. They are presently 23 to 33 years of age and will total 1.2 million new households per year for the next decade!
It’s happening all over the world! Residential real estate is up $30 trillion in 5 years!
Appreciation Prices as of June 2005 for the past 12 months
Country Price Appreciation: 1997-2004 Numbers for ‘05
Ireland 174% 11.1%
Spain 121% 15.5%
Britain 116% 5.5% (Jan-May of ‘05)
Australia 113% 1.1% (may be too low)
Netherlands 75% 11.3%
Sweden 67% 15.7%
France 59% 15.0%
Belgium 54% 8.2%
Italy 54% 10.8%
United States 53% 15.1%
New Zealand 47% 14.3%
Denmark 41% 5.0%
Canada 30% 7.3%
Switzerland 11% 2.1%
Germany -3% n/a
Japan -22% n/a
A. Demand for Housing (continued) - here come the immigrants!
9. The immigration of new buyers is largely due to the U.S. policy on family reunification.
In the U.S., 2/3 of all immigrants go to just 6 states. California is the #1 destination, receiving 22.4% of all immigrants.
Latinos are the fastest growing segment of the housing market!
a. Since 2000, 1.1 million more foreign immigrants have moved to California - which, for the first time, is a larger number than the number of migrants from other states!
b. Four of the top 11 counties attracting immigrants in the U.S. are in California!
Los Angeles is #1 - receiving 400,000, followed by Santa Clara (#5) and Alameda (#9).
Orange County ranks # 11, with 82,794 foreign immigrants arriving since 2000!
c. From 1980 to 2000, over 6.2 million minority households joined the ranks of middle-income earners and are purchasing housing. Those who arrived in the ’80s and ’90s with children now have children who are looking for a home!
d. These 2nd generation Americans now account for 15% of the population between 11 to 20 years of age. If history repeats itself, they will out-earn their parents and be an even greater source of housing demand.”
“His record has been very good and it goes back to 1989 when he told the real estate industry that their Party was Over and real estate would turn downward for at least 5 years losing close to 30% in value! He became known as Dr. Doom & Gloom and Scary Gary - until his 1996 forecast. It was then that he said the downturn was over and we would be in for another great run-up in real estate values that may last 10 years or longer!”
Ten years are over and Halloween is next week. It is about time for Evangelista Gary to morph into Scary Gary and “predict” that OC prices are going to decrease in 2006.
It is interesting that he has not yet made the position shift we have seen from LAY and DL. I wonder if he is holding the bag on some properties he needs to dump and that is why he is still singing the old koolaid tune.
How about articles about agents who refuse to take lisitings from out of touch buyers who want to list for unrealistic prices.
Are auctions the real deal?
Is the crash stabilizing? Economists seem to differ on the answer, depending on whether the REIC pays their salaries.
———————————————————————————
CAPITOL REPORT
Has housing bottomed? Most economists say no
By Rex Nutting, MarketWatch
Last Update: 5:02 PM ET Oct 26, 2006
…
Is it true, as David Seiders, chief economist for the National Association of Home Builders, suggested, that the market “may be stabilizing”? Or as David Lereah, chief economist for the National Association of Realtors, put it a month ago: “We think the housing market has now hit bottom.”
The housing optimists are led by economists for two industry groups, so their views may be self-serving to some extent. But their ranks also include some of the more respected economists on Wall Street as well.
“The housing market shows signs of stabilizing, said Dean Maki and Julia Coronado, economists for Barclays Capital, who, like Greenspan, point to the flattened out of mortgage applications as a key indicator.
David Greenlaw, an economist for Morgan Stanley, is another optimist, relatively speaking: “While we certainly do not think the housing market recession is over, a variety of incoming data increasingly suggest that the worst of it occurred in the third quarter — and with little meaningful spillover into other sectors of the economy,” Greenlaw said.
While some economists saw a bottoming in last week’s data, the far-more-common reaction was like this from MFR economist Joshua Shapiro: “It is clear there remains a deep-seated pessimism on the part of home builders.”
Or this from Ian Shepherdson, chief economist for High Frequency Economics: “It isn’t over. It has barely begun.’
Or this from Bart Malek of BMO Nesbitt Burns: “We have not yet seen the full fallout from the housing correction.” ”
http://tinyurl.com/yytdqq
Home prices may drop from record levels of overvaluation, but don’t worry — any such drops will be mild. And there is no bubble.
————————————————————————————
U.S. Home Prices May Fall
But Drops Will Be Mild
By Brian Blackstone
From The Wall Street Journal Online
U.S. housing prices may decline “a little” within the next year, but any such drop is likely to be mild and inconsistent with a bursting housing bubble, according to a paper written by a Federal Reserve economist.
Based on an analysis of housing futures and options and derivatives of housing-related company shares, “market participants expect home prices to decelerate sharply or actually decline a little within the next year,” wrote J. Benson Durham, an economist with the Fed’s monetary affairs division. However, the anticipated drop in prices “is mild compared to some estimates of the purported overvaluation of the housing market,” he added. The paper, dated September, was posted on the Fed’s Web site Thursday.
Rising Home Inventories
Track home inventories in 18 major metropolitan areas.
Mr. Durham cautioned that deep and liquid markets needed to signal future home-price trends don’t fully exist and that housing futures and options have only been trading on the Chicago Mercantile Exchange since May 22. Still, implied volatility on CME housing options are greater than the historical average, “which suggests that investors see more risks to home prices going forward,” he wrote. That higher uncertainty, however, is “generally inconsistent with the perception of a “bubble,’” he added.
http://www.realestatejournal.com/buysell/markettrends/20061023-blackstone.html?rejpartner=mktw
“a paper written by a Federal Reserve economist.”
Always good to hear from those who created the bubble.
What I am concerned about is how we can get the message out faster to the masses. There is so much great content on this blog, but with the thousands of comments posted on this blog each week, it can take hours to get through. I propose a new weekly topic called Best of the Blog or the Executive Summary, etc. which could be the last post on Friday (or the first on Monday with a link to it on Friday), where we could post the best analysis or anti-spin of the week’s housing articles provided in the past weeks comments. This way a busy person could easily catch up over the weekend with what has happened. I also suggest we provide links to past articles, graphs and resources so that the newbie person can more easily digest and access all of the information that is coming out about the housing bubble. I would love to be able to email such a link to a busy friend or new acquaintance so they would not be overwhelmed with all of the information provided them on the general site to hook them in or get them in to the habit of at least looking at this summary post once a week.
I have benefitted so much from Ben’s blog and was persuaded not to buy back in January because of it. I think the best thing we could do as a web community is collect and capture the experience and brilliant analysis on this blog and package it for those with less experience and time. By doing so we could really make an even bigger impact in educating and starving the market of new buyers. It would help all of us get what we want (a good deal on a house) alot faster.
What do you say Ben?
You don’t think Ben has enough to do.
I’m not suggesting Ben does it. We the reader could do it. If we come across something very valuable as we read comments, we could copy and paste it under this Best of the Blog thread for the week.
That would be way too much work for Ben. The man’s got to be overloaded as things stand. Also the bits bucket is already out of control so I can’t imagine what would happen to an “open source” best of the blog. I agree that comments are getting unwieldy but its due more to people going off topic (politics, religion, demographics, etc.) than posts on topic or near topic.
I think this is a great idea. I can no longer read every blog entry and all the comments and am afraid I might be missing some great references. Can we put it together each week and actually keep it on topic?
-
Which political party is more likely to push for a taxpayer bailout for the “victims” of this debacle?
Both.
Ben,
as I understand things, you are a journalist.
The blog you have established has brought together a wealth of information and experience.
I think it’s now time to give out press releases on the information your blog generates.
So often we read rubbish reports in the press…… time to set the record straight mate.
Lets start a HBB press release process.
FWIW
Let’s have a discussion of NAR’s propaganda strategy over the last year or more, and what is coming next.
1-3 years ago: The mantra was “real estate always goes up”. Buy now or be priced out forever.
6 months ago: The mantra was “real estate never goes down”. Realtors were encouraging sellers to hold firm on prices, and even de-list their homes to wait for a turnaround, Fed lowering the overnight rate, etc.
This past month: Two mantras emerged. To buyers: “the market has given back some of the gains, buy now or miss the rebound”. To sellers, “Don’t be so greedy” (do as I say, not as I do – after all, our agents have bills to pay). Realtors have started complaining that sellers are unrealistic in their asking prices: “you’re not going to get the same price that your neighbor got 6 months ago, so settle for 2004 or 2005 prices”.
The last week or so: The mantra seems to “This is the blood in the streets that you’ve been waiting for. Now take advantage of it – buy!!” The media is saying that there has been a substantial “correction” in home prices — larger than a lot of us watchers are seeing on the ground (’reduced price!’ in the MLS is meaningless, and only same-house sales can paint an accurate picture of cost trends – I’d be happy even with $$/sq ft).
These messages are being fed in markets across the country. Rest assured the NAR spin machine is mapping out the next messages. Any predictions?
Suggested Topic:
Best “See-Through” Neighborhood
A phenom from the ’80’s when neighborhoods were so empty you could “see through” it. With all the spec neighborhoods in some markets, perhaps recognition for:
Most deserted
Highest priced
Largest number of houses