“Too Many Homes, Not Enough Buyers”
The Flint Journal reports from Michigan. “The housing slump appears to be taking its toll even here in the lap of lakefront luxury, with for sale signs going up and prices coming down, if only to a point; sellers still would like a cool $2.6 million for that three-fireplace dream house, on N. Long Lake Road.”
“That’s just a sampling of the glut of homes for sale on Lake Fenton, where one resident recently counted 181 ‘for sale’ signs. On Margaret Drive, along the lake’s northwest side, at least 14 homes are on the market.”
“‘I’m going to wait until things go back to normal,’ said Langdon Mayhew. ‘It’s just gotten this bad in the last year. There are an unusually high number of signs.’”
“‘People are living closer and closer to their income level, and a lot may be in over their heads,’ said (realtor) Mary Ann Tremaine. Tremaine, who has listings in the area, said she’s not shocked the nationwide trend, too many homes, not enough buyers, has hit Lake Fenton.”
“‘What does surprise me is that so few are being sold,’ she said.”
“Flint Area Association of Realtors CEO Doris Nurenberg said the slow housing market was bound to affect once-sought-after lakefront properties. ‘The areas that are the hardest hit were booming 18 months ago,’ she said, adding that asking prices may have to drop before ‘Sold’ signs start popping up. ‘There’s a bottleneck of houses for sale, but people want the prices from two years ago.’”
“James Lozon has lived on Lake Fenton for 30 years and said he’s been blown away by the number of properties on the market. ‘This is the most signs ever,’ he said.”
The Star Tribune. “The Twin Cities housing market had a case of the sags in October; sagging prices, sagging ranks of listings and sagging numbers of closed sales.”
“After more than five years of commanding double-digit price increases in some areas, declining prices are an indication that buyers truly have the upper hand in the market and sellers are finally budging on price.”
“One of broker John Andersons’ clients recently bought a house for $75,000 less than the original asking price. ‘After five years of being tough to buy, it’s a great time to buy,’ he said.”
“Some sellers have no choice but to cut their prices to attract attention. Meanwhile, buyers have plenty of options. During November there are expected to be 9.84 homes on the market for every expected buyer. That measure is up 57 percent from the same time last year.”
“The price declines also could be a reflection of changes in the upper-bracket market, which… facing a serious oversupply issue. According to the weekly market report by the Minneapolis Area Association of Realtors, during October there was a 20-month supply of houses priced at $1 million or more.”
The Journal Sentinel from Wisconsin. “More homeowners planted ‘for sale’ signs around the Milwaukee area in October, but fewer home shoppers agreed to pay for their removal.”
“The four-county region’s existing-home market is suffering a double whammy of rising supply and waning demand, industry officials said Monday. They cited Metro Multiple Listing Service’s report of 1,548 resales last month, the slowest October in three years, as 3,186 new listings hit the market.”
“‘It’s sellers who have to get acclimated. I tell them, ‘You have one house to sell, but buyers have many to choose from,’ said Tammy Maddente, board president of Metro MLS.”
“It’s payback time for buyers, real estate agents say. In this year’s first 10 months, metro Milwaukee sales are down 4.8% and ‘for sale’ offerings are up 16.1%, MLS figures show.” “‘Our biggest difficulty is keeping deals together,” said Maddente. ‘When something (bad) comes back on an inspection, they want to reopen negotiations.’”
“Deals are being made, sometimes at a snail’s pace, ‘as sellers become more realistic,’ said Mike Ruzicka, president of Greater Milwaukee Association of Realtors.”
“The secret to selling a home successfully in this year, said Howard Loeb, broker-associate in Mequon: ‘Price right, present well - and be open to negotiation.’ ‘Buyers like a seller who’s flexible,’ Loeb said.”
“‘I’m going to wait until things go back to normal,’ said Langdon Mayhew. ‘It’s just gotten this bad in the last year. There are an unusually high number of signs.’”
Langdon,
You and Buffy might want to reconsider what “normal” means. Like, maybe the market back in 1999.
Let me see if I get this straight…
When everybody tries to buy something, the price goes up. And when everybody is trying to sell something, the price goes down?!?!?!?
WOW, that is a novel concept! I just want everybody to know that they heard it here first!
SoCalMtgGuy
http://www.housingbubblecasualty.com
Wife: Oh, I just can’t get these numbers to add up
Husband: Like we’re never going to get out of this hole.
Wife: Credit card debt, does it ever end?
Salesman: [entering from who-knows-where] Maybe I can help.
Husband: We sure could use it.
Wife: We’ve tried debt consolidation companies.
Husband: We’ve even taken out loans to help make payments.
Salesman: Well, you’re not the only one. Did you know that millions of Americans live with debt they can not control? That’s why I developed this unique new program for managing your debt. [Holds up book] It’s called, “Don’t Buy Stuff You Cannot Afford”
Wife: Let me see that. [Reading from book] If you don’t have any money, you should not buy anything. Hmmm … sounds interesting.
Husband: Sounds confusing.
Wife: I don’t know honey, this makes a lot of sense. There’s a whole section here on how to buy expensive things using money you’ve “saved”.
Husband: Give me that. And where do you get this “saved” money?
Salesman: I tell you where and how in Chapter 3.
Wife: OK, what if I want something but I don’t have any money?
Salesman: You don’t buy it.
Husband: Let’s say, I don’t have enough money to buy something. Should I buy it anyway?
Salesman: No.
Husband: Now I’m really confused.
Salesman: It’s a little confusing at first.
Wife: What if you have the money, can you buy something?
Salesman: Yes.
Wife: Now, take the money away. Same story?
Salesman: Nope. You shouldn’t buy stuff when you don’t have the money.
Husband: I think I’ve got it. I buy something I want, then hope that I can pay for it. Right?
Salesman: No. You make sure you have money, then you buy it.
Husband: Oh, then you buy it! But shouldn’t you buy it before you have the money?
Salesman: No.
Wife: Why not?
Salesman: It’s in the book. It’s only one page long. The advice is priceless and the book is free.
Wife: Wow. I like the sound of that.
Husband: Yeah, we can put it on our credit card.
Announcer: So, get out of debt now. Write for your free copy of “Don’t Buy Stuff You Cannot Afford”. And, if you order now, you’ll also receive, “Seriously, If You Don’t Have the Money, Don’t Buy It” along with a twelve month subscription to “Stop Buying Stuff” Magazine. Order today.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMudzRcPxLc
LOL!
Expand that idea to about 200 pages, print up a few thousand three-ring binders, and take it on the road. I’m thinking $500 for a one-day seminar.
Stop, you’re killing me!!!
LMAO
I was blown away when I read that. These guys must be smoking crack! Back to normal, what 30% of the listed price?!
“‘I’m going to wait until things go back to normal,’ said Langdon Mayhew.
The guy is 83. How much waiting time does he think he has?
I just had a customer with the same problem. 79 year old guy with a 600K cash buyer and he wanted to wait a few more years to possibly get more. I had to sit him down and tell him it was time to play.
I saw that. He probably didn’t pay near what he is asking, either.
Do you think this 79 yr. old guy can get a 30 year mortgage, or better yet, maybe he can do a reverse mortgage???
Yah!! Tell him it’s time to play….Right!!! meaning I want to play with your money…not you!!!
Why not? After all, there’s less risk that the lender will be stuck 20 years from now earning 5.875% when interest rates are 12%.
No, what I told him was it was time for him to cash in some chips and play with them. He’s 79. He has another, smaller, paid-off house to move to. His wife recently passed away…..
He was lloking across the lake at what they got last year. Maybe 200k more and thinking he would wait for that to come back.
Lenders don’t mind lending to older people ,in spite of the lifespan . Usually older people don’t go for the toxic loans and they put big down-payments or cash down and have reserves .
I agree with you waaahoo ,you got to get this guy to let it go .
He did. He’s on a cruise now.
I googled Langdon; his house is a mile from the nearest lake; he should get out while he’s still breathing. I doubt that Fenton, Michegan, is going to experience an upswing again any time soon.
Again, if there’s anyone in Minneapolis here, I’d like to know if that Mary Tyler Moore house sold. I thought that flipper was particularly odious.
I’ll bet he’s not “going to make it after all”.
(then throws beret into air!)
The flipper put this house on the market this past August or September. I don’t find it listed in the local MLS. The flipper paid $1.1 million for it, he’s asking in the area of $3 million.
Here’s a link to an article about the flipper selling this house: http://wcco.com/local/local_story_236121555.html
According to Hennepin County’s property tax record for the home, it hasn’t sold yet, but Mr. Flipper has managed to keep abreast of the property taxes on it:
http://www2.co.hennepin.mn.us/pins/addrresult.jsp
It looks to me that it was traditionally one of the high-end homes in that area, and the price the flipper paid is in line with local comps. But now he’s asking triple the high-end value. The most substantial upgrade he’s done is to make it 40% larger.
Homes in that price range take a long time to sell. It boggles the mind to imagine a high-school English teacher able to make the mortgage payments for the year or longer it’ll most likely take to move this.
I slightly disagree.
In that neighborhood people have paid north of $1M and then torn the house down bo build an infill house. It’s happening all over that area, especially in the cedar lake area.
If you drive around west cedar lake, you’ll see untold numbers of million dollar teardowns.
I’m not sure the new Mary Tyler Moore house is worth $3m or not… I haven’t seen it. It does seem a bit high, but not too high, especially given that it’s near 10,000 sq feet in the Kenwood neighborhood.
2nd homes in non rental status
wow, will they get hit
interesting category if stats are compiled separately
These are the folks who will soon be quoted in the press to say that RE is a terrible investment.
Here’s an article in Sunday’s Chicago Tribune about how Boomers aren’t buying second homes any more than past generations have:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/yourmoney/chi-0611120317nov12,1,4723218.story
That puts a big dent in one of the demographics that we have been told will keep housing prices high.
A home listed for 2 million bucks in Flint, Michigan is a sure sign of the apoclypse.
Yes, ha ha. Most people still need a job to have any house, never mind a $2.6M house. Are there a lot of $800000/year jobs near this lakefront?
With all those listing for sale ,does anyone question that they were flippers looking for a big pay-off with lakefront property?
Maybe they could talk Michael Moore into coming back.
‘ Among other recent listings: A year-old condo, built 30 feet from the lake, for $779,900. A sprawling property on Torrey Road with 40-foot ceilings and a winding staircase, $1.3 million. A two-story Grove Park Road home with a sauna and in-ground pool, $1.5 million.’
Does anyone know why this lakefront is so expensive?
Because they ain’t making anymore of it…right?
These homes are huge (5,000sf+) with acerage. They are not in Flint either. They are probably auto executive owned around the lake. Most lakefront homes in the area go for much less. There are a lot of lakes in Michigan and the economy in Michigan has been headed south since 2001. Homes in Flint are in the $100ks or less, but no one wants to live there.
I think Michigan has been heading south since the early 80’s. Texas was over run with refugees from the rust belt in the 80’s.
Flint is a ghetto city now. Its like a mini detroit. But everywhere in Mi there is a glut of homes available. I see as many at the 120-150k range that sit unsold for month after month. So its not just high end stuff thats dead. I also see alot of for sale signs go up in the spring and come down in the fall with the house unsold. Quite a few. And this in an area that really never got even a taste of the price bubble the rest of the country enjoyed. Mi sucks.
It is not in Flint and is located in one of the very few posh areas of the Flint/Saginaw area. Homes like this one are sold to a very small buying population, obviously, and they are huge 5000+ sq. ft.
I will add that Michigan did see a lot of home values grow in the mid to late 90s, since then it has been mixed. A few desirable areas continued to grow but only at a ~5% rate per year. Most areas stagnated and the past 18 months we have seen values decline across all communities, desirable or not. There just are not that many new people looking for homes. You are lucky if you get 1 person/family to look at your home each month. Typically, sellers only see 2-3 people every 6 months and that’s in desirable areas!!!
A lot of people feel Michigan is a canary in the colemine, so it does not surprise me that other areas of the country are starting to see so few buyers when trying to sell.
Ben, there are many expensive lakefront properties in Michigan. This state is not just Detroit, there are many beautiful areas and people here are just obsessed with water. We have more boat registrations than any other state than California.
The 1990’s were good to this state. The auto companies did very well and people were making lots of money. Much of it went into real estate and everyone wanted lakefront property. Unfortunately we have been in quite a slump since 2001 or so, and it keeps getting worse. There was an article in the Detroit Free Press last summer detailing how vacation homes can take 2-3 years to sell in Michigan. It now can take 2 years or more to sell a house in a good residential area like Dearborn. It’s getting really bad here but prices on really high-end properties aren’t coming down that much. They aren’t selling either, nor will they unless we have some sort of dramatic, long-lasting turn around in our economy.
You are correct. I do know that most areas have depreciated quite a bit since 2001-02. I am not certain about high end real estate. I have heard though that they close at a huge reduction from list price. (I believe there was one in Grosse Pointe that closed for $400k and was listed at $660k in August).
I personally know of a half a dozen people who have their home for sale and all of them have been on the market for over a year. They reduce significantly and still no one comes to look at their property. There are no buyers. These people are all listing their properties for less than they bought 6 years ago or more. The last home to sell in my old neighborhood went for $330k (4800sf). The home was built by Pulte in 2000. They lost at least $100k before realtor fees and closing costs. This home was on the market for over a year and had only 2 showings.
I looked up Warren, Michigan (3rd largest city in Michigan) last month. They had over 1,000 listings priced from $50k-$175k. (1460 total). Most of these homes look the same and have a very similar layout.
So many people have no idea how bad a housing market can get. I live in Chandler, Arizona and people here act like I am on crack when I talk of how bad the housing market is in Michigan.
I think I remember reading what you wrote about the Pulte house that sold for $330K. Sterling Heights? If you could tell me the details or even email me I would greatly appreciate it.
Flint area property values. How about this little gem:
Burton, MI 48509
Lexicographers are going to have to rewrite the definition of optimism after seeing this one.
Looks like a crack house where the owner must be smoking crack too.
It has to be a typo. It is probably $3,000. Here is one MLS- 30414715. It is also in Burton, MI and is listed at $29,000. It looks much better than the crack house.
My sister visited from Colorado Springs last weekend. I tried to explain to her about the national scope of the bubble — especially the inventory glut — and she does not quite get it, despite the fact that she is very bright. I guess when you read stories on this blog day-in, day-out about how shocked and awed folks in flyover country are about the inventory glut, it naturally begins to sink in.
I’ve also noticed that people’s attitudes about real estate tend to be local. They will perhaps mention the glut of properties in their own town, but speak about it as though it is something that is going on locally rather than something that is part of a larger context. This is especially true of people who don’t read much news of any sort, and there are many many such people.
-mr b.
It seems that even though the signs are there in every market people don’t want to believe it can happen to their town. The stories above show that major cities in the supposedly stable mid west are bursting. Minneapolis, Milwaukee & Detroit. Add to that Indianapolis & St Louis. The bubble is collapsing around my hometown of Chicago and people here can’t seem to come to grips with it. There’s is comeplete and total denial.
Ken,
Well that is one of the steps towards acceptance isn’t it? One of the things that is absolutely blind siding these folks up at “Lake Woebegone” (TM) up in MI is that the lack of buyers they’re noticing is folks are no longer seeing outrageous appreciation on their primary residences and this explains why people are “living closer to their income”. So many resort/retirement areas are in for a real body slammin’ b/c so much of what drove prices there just evaporated and isn’t coming back. Did anyone in their heart of hearts really believe there were THAT many “well heeled” people that could truly afford these McAlbatrosses (TM) at the lake? “I” never bought it.
“This is especially true of people who don’t read much news of any sort, and there are many many such people.”
Pretty much everybody with full-time jobs and kids, in my observation. But there is in fact still a big swath of territory in which the bubble is smaller and later in arriving. I’m thinking in particular of the South enclosed by its corner bubble states - the “execution states” of Va-Fla-Tx. Nashville has just now had its wave of appreciation and a lot of the small areas in and around the Chattanoogas and Birminghams of the world are still very much in the “ain’t real estate grand?” phase.
“‘People are living closer and closer to their income level, and a lot may be in over their heads,’ said (realtor) Mary Ann Tremaine. Tremaine, who has listings in the area, said she’s not shocked the nationwide trend, too many homes, not enough buyers, has hit Lake Fenton.”
“‘What does surprise me is that so few are being sold,’ she said.”
This epitomizes the STUPIDITY of Real Estate Agents throughout
America. There “business model” has been to push the asking prices up 15-20% a year, get a financing scheme for the buyer to afford the inflated prices and the revolve the sales every couple of years for selling gains not subject to capital gains.
It is a Ponzi Scheme of sorts that was bound to end. I personally would love to INFLATE the cost of everything I own 15-20% a year and call it “economic fundatmentals”, as cheap financing justifies the increased price.
They almost get it, but just can’t quite comprehend…..”People are living closer and closer to their income level” (i.e. Can’t afford the price). But don’t understand why people have stopped buying.
It’s just amazing the mindset of these agents.
I’m just dumbfounded~~!!
Excellent post: Americans have been brainwashed that home ownership is worth any cost. The Fed and State Gov’t continues to assist lower income folks into housing that they cannot afford on the basis that owning is better then renting. Weird!
I’ve been mulling/pondering/daydreaming about “ownership” for some time now. Do any of us really OWN anything? A mortgage is renting from the bank. Ditto cars, etc.
Society has become obsessed with owning stuff…the three “m’s”…me, mine, and more. Even if you pay cash for everything, what does actually owning mean? Being able to paint the walls? Really, I’m asking you guys, as a point of discussion…what does ownership mean to you? I’m not being sarcastic or trying to start a free for all between opposing political mindsets…I’m just curious to know what the motivation is for ownership. Both financially and psychologically.
Catherine,
Good morning btw. Even in the mid-west where outright ownership is/was more common all you need to do to find out who “really” owns the property is not pay your property taxes for about 5 years and you’ll find out!
There was this old guy up in Lake Oswego, OR and he was the grandfather we all wish we had. Birthdays, tons of presents. Oh you kids are behind on your bills? No problem I’ll just pay the car off for you. Well, old guy up and dies. Kids are forming line w/ hands outstretched. NOTHING. Yep, nada. Old guy was 10 years in arrears to the county and w/ interest + penalty then of course interest ON the penalty let’s see you OWE the county_____ $’s! Uh, the kids just walked away. You’d think they’d have put 2+2 together but……
When real estate was affordable ,it was a tax write-off and a forced savings plan ,and a possible retirement plan. With time ,(if you were on a fixed rate ), it was a hedge against inflation. If you figure out the math there might be better investments ,but people do like the idea of owning a piece of the pie and being able to paint their walls, yes .
Real Estate purchase/prices just became a investment scheme ,so now it’s a joke . What gets me is how it got to a National Housing Mania ,which I think it did .
If you look at animals in nature, they all try to carve out a little territory to call their own .
Right now I wish I was a renter because renters will clearly come out ahead during this coming up cycle along with the freedom it will give during what I think will be bad times .
To me, “ownership” is a pain in the ass. Although I have owned several homes (outright) in adult life, I was always happier renting and letting someone else make the direct payment of taxes and insurance so that I didn’t have to be angry at these rip-offs. In the several circumstances where I owned, the motivation was (case 1) ownership was actually CHEAPER than renting, (case 2) ownership was actually CHEAPER than renting, and (case 3) bought a fixer-upper to flip and got out in the nick of time having been paid sub-minimum wage for my own participation in the fixup. Obviously any repeat of case 1 or case 2 requires a 40% reduction in prices.
The pain in the ass factor of ownership.
I routinely lend out big tools and equipent to my friends and then just borrow it back when I need it. Meantime they store and maintain the things. They are happy and I’m happy.
Excellent point. Think about it, if you’ve got an I/O loan with no down payment today, you own nothing. Some hedge fund somewhere is holding an MBS, and another hedge fund is holding the derivative risk contract, still another may be holding yet another derivative on the derivative. The potential of this unwinding in a nasty way come reset time is substantial.
Our “ownership society” is the result of an engineered plan. Taking the fed funds rate down to 1% and leaving it there for so long was no accident. Do not mistake what they did for stupidity, and do not dismiss new bankruptcy laws as coincidental. This bubble was not supply and demand driven no matter what the industry may have you believe. It may in fact be wiser to study the price of crude oil which was trading at $10.86 in 1999 when I bought my home. Did my home increase in value by 600%? Not quite.
I hate “stuff.” I am constantly getting rid of things and paring down. I have moved fairly often, and resent lifting and transporting things that I don’t “need.” I prefer not to own much of anything. The only reason I am looking to buy in the distant future, is because I plan to grow plants. When I find that parcel, that is where I will be until I die. I look at all of these people buying these overpriced POS’s and I am dumbfounded. Most have no hope of ever paying them off. I believe the primary motivation was greed, to try and get a piece of the “action.” Unfortunately for the GF’s who purchased in the last 3 years, they’ve been had.
Hmmm let’s see the good things about owning (and I do outright):
- I can plant the garden of my choice and watch it mature
- no expiring leases with possible rent increases on a newie
- no quarterly inspections by RE agents
- not having the house sold to a new owner who may want
live in it
- indulge in the pet(s) of my choice
- decorate to my own tastes
diogenes,
Well that about sums it up now doesn’t it. Trust me, I don’t go out of my way to talk to realtors but on rare instances where it just can’t be avoided they are STILL touting the great “potential” for RE as an investment!
Really? An “investment”? Hmm. When congress does the inevitable and does away with the cap gains exemption and or seriously revises MID will it STILL be such a great “investment”?
With our current tax treatment even a profound and steep sell off in RE from coast to coast would only be met with a fresh round of new flippers and throngs of people looking to cash in all over again! It’s hard to say no to money and that much harder for tax free money. Americans WANT very badly for this “system” to work and for it to continue to “work”.
There is no question in my mind that the favorable tax treatment on primary residence capital gains fueled a low interest rate market . Come on , only a 2 year holding period and you have no capital gains to pay up to 500K for a married couple . I’m sure alot of people developed a 2 year investment plan .
Housing Wizard,
No question. It’s probably all they talked about at work. Their NEXT house! It also fits in nicely w/most American’s consumption habits too we might add. This gives us two options, sit and draw MEW (mort. eq. withdrawal) OR flip! You choose!
That’s why I really appreciate flippersintrouble guy! Prior to his broadening the definition “flippers” were people on television. Hardly. You don’t need to be on one of about 17 shows to be a real part of the problem! Look how many friends and co-workers we all know that are on their 3rd house in 6 years and STILL work at the same job!
If we don’t change the tax code the “correction” and the pain it caused will all be for nothing. It will just be “The Bubble, Phase II”.
And I’ve got the IRS all over my ass. You wonder why I’m so pissed off all the time.
Yep, I think the government will reconsider that tax code down the line as well as how much interest rate deduction they will allow ,and perhaps no interest write-off for second homes .
txchick57,
Small wonder. This is part of the “trade off” I talked a little about yesterday. They’ve bought our silence. We don’t pay any cap gains, and in return DC does what they want. Let pensions slide into ruin, healthcare costs go through the roof? Cool with me, I gots my tax free money!
This is the train wreck I’ve been waiting for. When your house is no longer appreciating 3% a month tax free, will you still “be cool” with us offshoring your job? Look at all the great stories about the dads that got laid off but were cool with it b/c their home was “appreciating” so much they just re-fi’d every time they needed money and made I/O payments until the next re-fi. All of this mind you w/tax free money. I mean, what’s not to like about that?
And I’ve got the IRS all over my ass.
My sincere condolences.
They put me thru the ringer on like a niggardly $30k return. They see the world “appraiser” and think you’re automatically doin’ six-figures.
Are you receiving all notices in quadruplicate from multi-offices around the country? I liked that part. Right hand not having a clue what the left is doing.
Your government in action.
Housing Wizard,
That will be “the tight rope”. How to do away with what seemed like a reasonable idea at the time (became a monster) and still somehow come away with the appearance of being “pro home ownership”? It’s going to be very difficult and what I see likely happening is “phase outs” where we are no longer going to tolerate people “fluffing up” their Schedule A w/tons of MID and property taxes and being able to write off EVERY PENNY of it. Sure if you want a second home, you can do that. Hey this is America right. Are you going to be able to solve ALL of your tax problems w/ your Schedule A? Hell no! Start a legitimate business and move to Schedule C!
hd74man, Anyone that uses the word niggardly gets not sympanthy. You deserve an audit, interest, penalties, and some jail time. Straighten up and join the human race.
I’m aware there are already to some degree phase outs in place. I should have specified that these phase outs will be migrating “south”.
What we have here is a situation where people gamed the system by basically becoming RE indigent. If 60% of your pre tax income is going toward your house payment how much if any is left to be taxed? Don’t get me wrong here, I’m hardly “pro-tax” but we’ve unwittingly created a loop-hole you could drive a Mack truck through here.
Not only do they get a free pass on their regular income they also have a “get out of jail free card” when it comes to cap gains. (Of course all of this only makes sense for home debtors in an appreciating market) and we’ve beat that thing for all it’s worth!
JR, “Niggardly” is a perfectly good word what are you talking about. Sad when folks spout off when it’s obvious they ahve no idea what they are talking about. Get a dictionary and use it sometime.
As a fyi, the word niggardly has nothing to do with racism, though many a controversy has erupted because it sounds racist. Be careful about attacking others because of your own limited vocabulary.
jb
[Q] From Robyn Hodges: “I wonder if you could help me find the origin of the word niggardly?”
[A] Despite the similarity in spelling, this word has no connection with nigger, the one word which these days it is almost impossible for white Americans to say or write publicly.
At the beginning of 1999, David Howard (the head of the Office of Public Advocate in Washington, DC) used it during a discussion with a black colleague in describing a budget allocation which he considered to be inadequate. He was reported as saying: “I will have to be niggardly with this fund because it’s not going to be a lot of money”. In large part the uproar came about because the word is not especially common: even Mr Howard said that he had learned it while studying, rather than by hearing it used. Misunderstandings and misapprehensions are much more likely under such circumstances.
The adverb form niggardly, miserly or stingily, was formed in the sixteenth century from niggard, a miser or stingy person. In the Wycliffe Bible of 1384 it was spelled nygard; earlier still it can be found as nigon, and another form nig also existed. We are pretty sure this was borrowed from a Scandinavian source, because there are related words in several Germanic languages, for example, the Old Norse hnøgger, meaning “stingy”. So it has nothing to do with nigger, which comes via French nègre from Spanish negro, ultimately from Latin niger, meaning “black”.
Huge sensitivities over a word that could just conceivably be intended as a racial slur led to a controversy that raged for weeks. It disproved the old adage that “sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me”. In reality, a number of black Americans found the word to be demeaning. Though newspapers and language writers (including this one) explained the true facts repeatedly, they did little to assuage the feeling of hurt. In such matters, perception is everything and etymology nowhere.
As a more recent discovery shows, the misunderstanding between the two words isn’t new. This exchange appeared in McClure’s Magazine in March 1924: “‘A niggardly and disgusting habit,’ I commented. … ‘Just lay off that “nigger” stuff after this,’ warned Pete.”
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Page created 26 September 1998; last updated 27 May 2006.
In defense of hd47man… a definition:
Niggardly is a word synonymous with stingy and miserly, and a niggard (noun) is a miser. They are both derived from the Old Norse verb nigla, meaning “to fuss about small matters”. (The English word “niggle” retains the original Norse meaning.) The word is not related to the word ni**er, though someone unfamiliar with the word “niggardly” might take offense due to the superficial phonetic similarity between the words.
This epitomizes the STUPIDITY of Real Estate Agents throughout
America. There “business model” has been to push the asking prices up 15-20% a year, get a financing scheme for the buyer to afford the inflated prices and the revolve the sales every couple of years for selling gains not subject to capital gains.
It is a Ponzi Scheme of sorts that was bound to end.
Well summarized, diogenes
‘Buyers like a seller who’s flexible,’
On price. Its not a buyers market yet… soon… so soon…
I don’t know what to say, we sold our second place in Denver a very depressed market in 47 days with a 3% price reduction about the same in good times. As i speak two houses on the street have sold signs, this is a country of 300 million people somebody out there needs a home apparently?
Shadow …..Is the area your talking about a lower-priced area that might be near employment or ski areas . I’m just trying to see if affordability is still present in some areas .
Wizard how does one answer such a question, what you can or can’t afford is your business is 100k to much is 200k to much?
Their are places in the country you can buy for your budget most likely but then the question arises is it a place i want to wake up to?
Their will be some price correction in the country to reduce inventory but how much is the big question.
To some people who make lets say 30k a year 100k is to much and to others who make 250k a year or more they don’t care they want location a secure area.
I see this as a matter of clearing out the investors and lenders who created this nonsense then i see homes selling at prices that still may be to high for some but with a huge buying base and overseas buyers waiting to buy this is not going to be a huge crash. For the sake of the ecomony i hope it all works out take care>
Well… I know of some people who make 250k who *do* care about price. Because, IMHO, in areas where you can make that much $$ Prices are out of control stupidly high. A “reasonable” 300k country house in CO makes for a hell of a commute to L.A. or the Bay area!
If you make 20 grand a month you expect to shop for a high price home, what do you want all the marbles to play with pal???
BTW you are posting to a peson who has done a lot of business in Denver now tell me about that reasonable 300k house, could it be located in that garden spot Thorton?
What I’m saying “pal”, is that not all people who make that kind of money want to blow it on a million $$ plus “starter” home. Why so sensitive?
plysat & Housing Wizard,
I wouldn’t waste much time arguing with this arrogant fucktard. Based on the misspellings and the bullshit formulas “____ house sold for $____” and “everyone who lives in ____ makes big fat stacks”, I’d guess this is the same troll who regularly pollutes the discussions at Patrick.net and elsewhere.
His/her other aliases include ConfusedRenter, CuriousCat, MarinaPrime and s/he is probably the one who impersonated Surfer-X before.
…”metro Milwaukee sales are down 4.8%”…
I really don’t get it. Home sales there are down just 4.8% and that’s a big deal? Who are all of these idiots purchasing homes? Some of these articles leave me shaking my head until it hurts.
francotirador: trying to figure out why people like to catch a falling knife is like going into a back alley in downtown LA very late at night.
Not sure if this was posted already…Housing slump.
1 in 10 jobs related to real estate…
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech/articles/060820/28jobs.htm
‘The number of homes in foreclosure continued to rise in the Flint area and was consistent with the Detroit area, which led the nation in foreclosures in recent months. The number of foreclosures in Genesee County through September of this year nearly tripled the amount from the same time last year. It was up 30 percent in Lapeer County and 38 percent in Shiawassee County. Genesee County’s numbers jumped from 1,610 foreclosure starts in the first nine months of 2005 to 4,230 through September of this year.’
‘ Barry Simon, executive director of the Home Builders Association of Metropolitan Flint, follows housing and foreclosure trends and wasn’t shocked by the latest numbers. ‘Look, it’s no surprise,’ Simon said. ‘Obviously, foreclosures have been way up for some time. Perhaps the most frightening thing is how fast the rate is growing throughout the country and not just here. And I’m afraid this is just the tip of the iceberg. That’s what concerns me.’ Simon said he expects foreclosures to continue to increase as people move out of the area to find work, and adjustable low-rate mortgages become due at substantially higher rates than at what they were issued.’
Simon said he expects foreclosures to continue to increase as people move out of the area to find work, and adjustable low-rate mortgages become due at substantially higher rates than at what they were issued.’
]
Another victim of the YOY sales decline will be the mobility factor. The ability to get up and move for whatever reason has become a manta in America. Looks like Grandma will have to keep the big house and Uncle Fred can’t take his new job offer in the sunbelt.
I noticed among real estate ads here the term used for foreclosed homes is ” corporate owned “. I guess the realtors don’t like to show that ugly harsh reality word foreclosure property. It might actually cause buyers to pause and think do we really want to get involved in a situation that busted out the previous person?
“Simon said. ‘Obviously, foreclosures have been way up for some time. Perhaps the most frightening thing is how fast the rate is growing throughout the country and not just here. And I’m afraid this is just the tip of the iceberg. ”
And I’m sure that the Feds are afraid too!
“It was quick, easy money, but then rates go up and it’s over,” says mortgage trainer Christopher Cruise, who recently visited one mortgage lending operation in Rockville, Md., that let all 71 of its loan officers go. “At the peak, all you needed was a voice and a telephone, and you were pretty much guaranteed six figures. But now you’ve got to suck it up, and some folks would rather just go lay on the beach and wait around for the next refi boom.”
From the “US News Housing Report”
Arrogant low-life POS…
Everybody needs to send a copy of this quote to their Congression delegates with the memo, “NO BAIL-OUT”
txchick57 !!! The IRS is DOING WHAT ???
Just kidding and hugs & sympathy. Been there, done THAT, but fortunately one of my friends is very successful a tax lawyer that used to work for them. The Regional Office says we are all “Friends” NOW but I think they Hate us BOTH ! ha ha
Out of curiosity, once a house goes into forclosure and is sitting empty, is there any particular angle one might use to pick it up for a song from the bank?
There is a foreclosed house in my neighborhood that is a whole lot nicer than the one I currently own. A realtor had a for sale sign on it for a couple months but now I see that the sign is gone too and it isn’t on the MLS anymore. But no one seems to have bought it as it is sitting empty and unattended. It’s kind of an older style and a bit dated which is why I don’t think it sold. The previous owners blew a ton of money putting in a pool, patio, and all sort of nice hardscaping in the exterior and I think ran out of money without upgrading any of the interior so they crashed and burned after they learned that no, you can’t recoup your $75 grand investment in the pool, rock walls, and patios when you go to sell. The County tax records currently show it is owned by Wells Fargo in South Carolina.
I’ve thought that if I can get that place for a low enough price it would be worth dumping our current place and moving over. But I’m not sure how to proceed even investigating the situation or get a sense of what the angles are.
At this point my wife and I are probably going to put our current house up for sale in the spring and if it sells, go from there either into a rental, or a “permanent till the kids grow up and move out in 18 years” house if the price is absolutely right.
JR–learn the language. Niggardly is a synonym for stingy, its etymology is from the 13th century. Just because your vocabulary isn’t stunning doesn’t mean you should attck those who have a firm grasp on the english language.
1366, nygart, of uncertain origin. The suffix suggests Fr. origin (cf. dastard), but the root word is probably related to O.N. hnøggr “stingy,” from P.Gmc. *khnauwjaz (cf. Swed. njugg “close, careful,” Ger. genau “precise, exact”), and to O.E. hneaw “stingy, niggardly,” which did not survive in M.E.