“Lawsuit Rumblings Are Starting”
One reader suggested this topic. “Lawsuit rumblings are starting: Were you sold a Puffed Overinflated Home Value by a Developer? We’re looking for other folks that were ‘puffed’ on a home purchase that was supposed to appreciate to a value to cover the downpayment and never even came close.”
“Also, told it would rent for about the mortgage value and will never rent for near that. We are seeking a competent attorney that can help represent others like us to come out with some fair amicable solution with these developers. Can anyone can help us prevent a financial disaster?”
The Arizona Republic. “Complaints against real estate agents are on the rise, with consumers accusing them of everything from selling property without a license to cutting corners to make a sale.”
“As of June, the number of complaints opened with the Arizona Department of Real Estate had jumped 53 percent since 2003, the year before the housing boom took the Valley by storm. Complaints forwarded for discipline increased 150 percent in that same time.”
“Part of the spike in complaints reflects the rush of new agents who flooded the market to take advantage of the housing boom of 2004 and 2005. The number of new brokers and agents rose 38 percent in the past three years, well behind the pace of complaints.”
“Elaine Richardson, the state’s real estate commissioner, said she was alarmed by the trend of new complaints exceeding the number of new brokers and agents. ‘If we don’t get a handle on it, that brings us back to people getting bilked out of their money,’ she said.”
“Patti Schubert of Fountain Hills recently filed a complaint with the real estate department and other agencies, accusing her agent and a condo developer of mishandling her paperwork. She said she and her husband, Steve, lost nearly $92,000 in earnest and upgrade money as a result.”
“‘I honestly think the agents got caught in the frenzy of the market,’ Schubert said. ‘They were making a lot of money. They forgot their responsibility to their clients.’”
“David Khalaj, an agent in Ahwatukee, thinks some of complaints come from the frustration of a slow market. ‘There’s just no traffic out there,’ he said. ‘Everybody is frustrated right now with the way the market is.’”
The Denver Post. “The Denver/Boulder Better Business Bureau has received 20 complaints about Altus Real Estate during the past three years, more than any other mortgage company in Colorado. Five involve allegations that Altus brokers lied or misled them about loan terms.”
“Deceptive practices by some brokers are helping to push homeowners into foreclosure, experts say. ‘It’s a serious problem. People are getting into loans they can’t afford,’ said Colorado Attorney General John Suthers. ‘That puts them at a higher risk of foreclosure.’ The state’s foreclosure rate has led the nation for eight consecutive months.”
“Loans with higher rates or prepayment penalties can boost the lender-paid broker commission by one to three percentage points, or up to $9,000 on a $300,000 loan. A former Altus broker said Altus tried to put customers into high-commission loans. ‘I was asked by a manager ‘Why aren’t you selling the option-ARM?’ said the former broker, who asked not to be named.”
“Barbara Mattern said she was told by an Altus broker that the monthly payment on her $556,0000 loan would be less than $1,000. But when her first mortgage-payment stub arrived in mid-2005, the principal-and-interest payment was about $3,000, she said.”
“Mattern walked away from the home she loved. The loan was just one factor in her foreclosure. Now she’s living with a relative in Nebraska, and her belongings are in storage. ‘I don’t know what I’m going to do,’ she said. ‘I’m just kind of lost right now.’”
“Mitch Hyder cringes as he looks through the loan-refinancing documents he signed in December 2005. There, on one document, is the 7.46 percent interest rate. Another document spells out details of his option ARM, an adjustable-rate mortgage with a variety of payment options.”
“Hyder called Altus after hearing a radio spot offering no payments for 12 months. Hyder said the broker quickly talked him into a different loan, with a 2.9 percent interest rate for five years. The broker never told him it was an option ARM or that the low numbers were for a payment that would cause his loan debt to grow up to 125 percent of the original balance, Hyder said.”
“He admits he didn’t read the closing documents carefully, relying instead on what the broker told him. ‘I now call myself Capt. Dumbass,’ said Hyder.”
“Hyder’s $244,000 loan and an accompanying $48,800 equity line of credit were through lender Washington Mutual. Altus collected $11,100 in fees, $7,800 from Washington Mutual and $3,300 from Hyder. ‘We’re making the minimum payment and losing all the equity in our home,’ Hyder said. ‘It’s going to be a very expensive lesson.’”
‘Adjustable rate mortgages are the biggest reason that Pueblo has one of the highest mortgage foreclosure rates in the nation, says local housing loan specialist Rita Godfrey. Some people will finance 125 percent of their home loan during that first two years of ownership because they have so much debt. Unfortunately, they only qualify for the highest interest rate mortgage in an effort ‘to cash out to pay that (debt) off,’ said Godfrey.’
“He admits he didn’t read the closing documents carefully, relying instead on what the broker told him. ‘I now call myself Capt. Dumbass,’ said Hyder.”
No sympathy here.
More like “Private Dumbass.” Clowns like this couldn’t lead ants to a picnic.
suggest that we contact this person and ask him to join Blog. worth it just to see someone post as “Captain_DumbAss”
BARBARA MATTERN IS A DUMBASS - only a fool would think a 500+k mortgage payment was 1000 or less…
No kidding. Did it ever occur to Babs to run that $500K mortage on of those ubiquitous online mortage calculators? It boggles my mind to think someone so clueless would actually be allowed to borrow half a million dollars.
Back in the “old” days when a buyer actually had to have a 10%-20% down payment to secure a mortgage, there were a lot fewer of these people. It’s not surprising that someone who can’t rub two nickels together is financially illiterate.
My husband’s ex wife and her equally charming and intelligent husband financed 100% of their home 581K for a house that is worth 435K in a hot market. Their mortgage is about $3800 a month~ and they can only pay it if my husband’s two boys decide to stay living with her until they are 18.
I don’t think she was a fool. She was greedy. Now she is screwed. That looks like the textbook definition of justice to me. She knew what she was getting into. She just didn’t want to admit it to herself. Before she was masquerading as an investor. Now she is masquerading as a victim. That is two sides to the same mask.
Dumbass or greedy - same outcome. I do not think these 2 things are mutually exclusive! You can have a greedy dumbass. I think we see many ex of these!!!
posted ” “He admits he didn’t read the closing documents carefully, relying instead on what the broker told him.”
This just contract law 101…. good luck with the I am dumb defence.
Not so fast.
Even if a writing contains a stipulation that no other representations are being made than those contained in the writing, if other, false representations were made by the person inducing the making of the contract memorialized by the writing, that stipulation can’t absolve the party making false representations from liability for fraud.
It gets complicated when there’s an agent interposed between the people who actually enter into the contract (a mortgage contract will typically have a recital limiting the agent’s authority to make representations to the representations contained in the contract, and that limits the remedies a defrauded borrower can obtain to rescission of the contract), but even in that case, it should be possible to argue that the lender effectively ratified the agent’s misrepresentations.
A borrower who tries the “I didn’t read the loan docs” defense would face an uphill battle (mainly because of problems of proving oral misrepresentations), but wouldn’t be automatically shut out.
‘I now call myself Capt. Dumbass,’ said Hyder.”
At least he’s not alone.
brownie points to him. Least he recognized that he blew it and signed up for the crap loan.
I don’t feel sorry for any of these GF’s. Had the music continued to play and they were able to become “rich” off their equity they would be bragging to all their friends how smart they are. This rising tide lifted many SS Minows that should have been drydocked.
Hopefully they will tell everyone they know how they were “screwed” so they can learn from their STUPIDITY and not get sucked into the next speculative “asset” class. Although, I would bet most of these idiots are probably on EBAY right now bidding on a PS3. No wonder 90% of this countries wealth is controlled by the other 10%.
Amen brother.
THEY SHOULD ALL BE SLAUGHTERED FINANCIALY AND LIVE IN POVERTY UNTILL THEY DIE. NO MERCY FOR STUPID, MORONIC, GREEDY IDIOTS.
Uh Oh!
A couple of months ago there were some pretty good flame fests for expressing krisb’s sentiment.
I happen to agree with it otherwise we have the nanny state put underneath everyone and further subsidize highly risky behavior.
I’ve been called bitter, harsh, and assorted other things for expressing this same sentiment. LOL. I’m the most pleasant, easiest person on earth to get along with . . . . IF YOU’RE NOT A DUMBASS WHO ANNOYS ME WITH BS OR STUPIDITY!
Txchick,
Americans have had it way too good for way too long, and it’s made us way too soft and tolerant of things that no healthy, self-respecting society should ever have put up with. If you take the view that society is the sum total of its assets and liabilities, we’ve let far too many liabilities pile up. Hard times are coming in consequence, and that’s not all bad. We’ll have to dispense with lies and political correctness that have hobbled public policy, and let people reap the fruits of their own actions. There needs to be a long-overdue revival of obsolete notions like RESPONSIBILITY and ACCOUNTABILITY, and swift, harsh justice for dirtbags.
The concept of “tolerance” has been taken way too far. If you question anybody you are called racist, sexist, elitist, etc. “You don’t believe in Interest Only loans? You are an elitist that holds the little guy down.” See what I mean? It’s that easy and that stupid.
Amen, brother.
txchick57
“I’ve been called bitter, harsh, and assorted other things for expressing this same sentiment. LOL. I’m the most pleasant, easiest person on earth to get along with . . . . IF YOU’RE NOT A DUMBASS WHO ANNOYS ME WITH BS OR STUPIDITY!”
There are lots of pleasant people who
would consider you
“DUMBASS WHO ANNOYS” them ” WITH BS OR STUPIDITY”
Well, may I suggest a good dose of ex-lax for what ails you?
Ditto for people who post in all caps.
“THEY SHOULD ALL BE SLAUGHTERED FINANCIALY AND LIVE IN POVERTY UNTILL THEY DIE. NO MERCY FOR STUPID, MORONIC, GREEDY IDIOTS.”
Come on, don’t sugar coat it, tell us how you really feel.
LOL
I got a PS3 off Craigslist from a guy who started at 1900 and sold it to me for $650. I wore him down psychologically
Wii has better games…or are you buying it as a gift?
(OT, but I’m procrastinating from cleaning up right now).
Got one of those too.
And the MSRP on the PS3 I bought was $600. The dumbass who sold it to me paid $649 with tax and waited outside 2 days to buy it.
Now who’s the dumbass?
You are txchick57!
Only a fool would buy a PS3. txchick57 please remove the “57″ IQ’s are not required on this website.
it’ll probably be worth $5.00 next year. Good buy.
possibly, but such is the life of the early adopter. Usage for that year may be worth $645 to some people!
When I pick one up for $250 including games from some FB’s distress sale, I’ll be sure to let you know.
You go girl
I especially love it after sitting with my jaw hanging open watching people trample one and other to get a PS3 in Maryland. Most of the people interviewed said that they were going to sell them.
The new flippers.
It seems that every Christmas season we must endure stampedes of people and people camping out. When did this madness start. With the invention of Ebay? Sorry this post isn’t related to housing.
I saw a bunch of feebs camped out in front of the local Best Buy waiting for PS3s. It looked like the inaugural meeting of the Dateless Dudes Network. Guys like that would sleep alone in a women’s prison.
LMAO, Sammy!!!
I picture TXChick as an older woman that smokes three packs a day, wears six coats of flaming red lipstick and has a voice like Frank Pentangilene of Godfather II.
Don’t get me wrong. I like most of your posts. But I bet you’ve uttered the words, “come over here and satisfy momma”.
Hey, you say that like it’s a BAD thing….
Nope. I’m a health nut. Can’t stand to even be in the same room as a smoker.
I’m more like Rene Russo than what you’re thinking. That’s what people tell me.
Daaaaaammmnnnnnnnnn!
Too bad for YOU, NyCityBoy! Wow, If I was dumb enough to judge people’s appearance on their posts, I’d have to peg you as an undersized, balding, pole-smoking queen with a voice like Michael Jackson.
You’ve got to admit Trojan Horse did a funny! LMAO!
People always telling imploder that he to looks like movie star… Nick Nolte… you know, in that mug shot.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/mugshots/nolte1.html
And it’s not even a good Hawaiian shirt. The pattern should match across the seams. Difference between a good Tommy Bahama or Kahala and a cheap imitator ($85 vs. $35) is $50. Difference in the look and quality? Priceless.
I nearly lost my coffee reading these…
“I picture TXChick as an older woman that smokes three packs a day, wears six coats of flaming red lipstick and has a voice like Frank Pentangilene of Godfather II.”
And what’s wrong with this ?
Why is it that anytime a woman shows brains, savvy, smarts etc. she has to be ugly? phuleaze….
That’s what our male-dominated society has come to. Txchick alluded to it earlier; When a “male” on this board makes comments about people getting what they deserve, we all jump up and say “yeah! you go!”. when txchick (or any other “female”) says it, we all call her a bitchy old hag. Thankfully, txchick is confident enough to laugh at our obvious male insecurity.
As for the PS3, this time it’s different, people. Get out and buy one before you are priced out forever….the value is only going up!
did someone put something in the water? is the moon full? LOL
On the internet one can be any sex or age they choose.
Signed,
A transgender albino mute.
posted “I picture TXChick as an older woman that smokes three packs a day, wears six coats of flaming red lipstick and has a voice like Frank Pentangilene of Godfather II. ”
That’s odd. That is the same thing I vision Gekko to be.
I think it is better to address your sarcasm towards the Mr. Greenspin or a likes, who are playing with markets and ruining some not sophisticated people by helping 10% of this countries rich to make more money. In most cases people bought their houses just to live in them with their families by trusting the system (it is their only stupidity).
trusting the system ?
What system? There is no system. That makes about as much sense as trusting in. . . OK, it’s Sunday, I won’t say it.
There is birth, life, and death. You get all 3. Do what you want with it. No victims on the blog.
It is not time to play a hero. If you were that hero what are you doing in this site. Brother we all are the losers here in this site. If we were that sophisticated we could have bought the houses ( at least 2 or 3) in say Los Feliz area of Los Angeles in 1998 for $300000 each and sold each for 1500000. If you are in that group of people, you are probably sitting somewhere in Monaco and don’t care about us suckers who missed the big Money moment, who now play Smart on this site. None of us new what was playing on Mr. Greenspin before 2000 stock market crash and after that, when he lowered the Rates to 0.
I might not be a hero but I’m not a damn victim. There’s no such thing as missing the big money moment. If that’s the way you look at life you are screwed anyway. Go cry elsewhere.
I am sorry for hearthing your feelings. I respect your view of life not to be “damn victim”.But by doing that you are a vitim since you have to wait maybe 3 or4 years to have opportunity to get your price. To be honest my view of life also was in some way Alber Camues or Michelangelo Antonionies existencialism and I liked bittnic poets when I was young, but Capitalism oppenes your eyes, you want it or not, and I am not crying anymore.
“To be honest my view of life also was in some way Alber Camues or Michelangelo Antonionies existencialism and I liked bittnic poets when I was young, but Capitalism oppenes your eyes, you want it or not, and I am not crying anymore.”
=====
Have you ever heard of The Shaggs? Your post reminds me of their album notes. And, come to think of it, their music too.
Gal, we’re not all losers here.
My husband and I purchased a place in Manhattan ten years ago after doing the math and figuring we’d be making out like bandits because the cost of ownership was so much less than the cost of renting would have been — despite the fact that every so-called “expert” at the time told us not to expect to make money on it. We sold it in 2001 and made a fortune. We bought again in 1999 — yet another place where our monthly carrying costs were less than what renting would be. That’s where we’re staying put for now — you could’t get me to buy into this ponzi scheme of a market without putting a gun to my head.
If you go by that rule — to never pay more per month to own a place than it would cost to rent it (on a fixed, sensible mortgage, of course), it seems to me, you’ll be fine, because even if you can’t sell, you can always rent the place out. Simple math — the rental income acts as a hedge against a market downturn.
It’s amazing to me how many people are sinking every cent they have into these properties without doing any research on their own whatsoever into what the rents are in their neighborhoods. Including, it would appear, this Craigslist poster.
That said, the LA Times had an interesting piece this morning on all of these incentives these homebuilders are throwing into the mix, and why they’re probably ending up creating some rather dicey appraisals:
http://tinyurl.com/y66kpe
And no, I don’t consider myself a victim because we can’t move up into something bigger for another 3 years or so. That’s my choice. We could afford to move up now, but I’d sooner flush my next paycheck down the toilet.
I am sorry for hearthing your feelings. I respect your view of life not to be “damn victim”.But by doing that you are a vitim since you have to wait maybe 3 or4 years to have opportunity to get your price. To be honest my view of life also was in some way Alber Camues or Michelangelo Antonionies existencialism and I liked bittnic poets when I was young, but Capitalism oppenes your eyes, you want it or not, and I am not crying anymore.
Hey Gal, speaking of lawsuits, what school district did you attend? From your spelling and grammar skills I’d say you could easily sue them for negligence if they actually allowed you to graduate.
Alber Camues
Michelangelo Antonionies
existencialism
bittnic poets
You’ve gotta be f*cking kidding me.
I believe Gal said english was a second language.
Dear Sammy Schadden…, You can sue the XSoviet Union for my school district, since I am refugee from there, and it is my fourth language. For your information your moron’s language is so hard to comprihend that even your vice President or University professors are in the same level I am, you should change it ….
Gal,
My apologies for my comments about your language skills, as I did not know that English was not your native language.
Posted ” I believe Gal said english was a second language.
I think it is GWBush’s too.
And he doesn’t have a first language.
Yeah, the orthography of English is pretty grim - it’s never been “reformed” so its a big mess. Same with French, where ya got a whole bunch of old farts “preserving” the language in formaldehyde.
“Dear Sammy Schadden…, You can sue the XSoviet Union for my school district, since I am refugee from there,”
What is your “refugee” status based on? Since that is a political residence status here is the US.
Hmmm…. Is “Gal” actually Galina Serin? Casey’s wife?
http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/sdcia/vpost?id=1415533
Shall I’ll go ahead and call my Congressman and ask him to submit a bill to change our language to something more simplistic? Perhaps one that uses a archaic character set such as Cyrillic?
I think it is better to address your sarcasm towards the Mr. Greenspin or a likes, who are playing with markets and ruining some not sophisticated people by helping 10% of this countries rich to make more money.
Oh please, Pollyana. When you fell off the turnip truck, did it run over your head? Greenspan is a clueless overrated moron, but he didn’t force “not sophisticated people” — dumb-asses, in the venacular — to take on debt they couldn’t afford for things they could’ve done without. He’s an accessory to gross stupidity, all right, but he didn’t force all those FBs to sign away their financial solvency.
The latest from Alan is that ,’there are early signs of stabilization’ in the US housing market. This from the guy who told the sheeple to finance their houses with neg/arms and I.O. loans. Total B.S. don’t you agree?
Gal,
You might want to learn to spell before you decide to post your thoughts.
Thank you for an advise, I will. But I think I will use spell check instead. I just want to aske you to do me a favor don’t call to Homelend Security for it.
I smell a ruse!
“Homelend Security ‘
You got that right Natasha.
gal:
“I think it is better to address your sarcasm towards the Mr. Greenspin or a likes…”
Correct !
I couldn’t help myself and responded to the Craigslist ad:
“Did it occur to you that you’re getting what you deserve?
You bought property with the thought of screwing and cheating young couples into paying an inflated price for a house so that you could entertain your delusions of becoming Donald Trump. You bought property with the thought of screwing renters into paying inflated rents to cover your mortgage so that you could get something for nothing.
Instead, you’re sitting on empty property while you get eaten alive by insurance, taxes and interest.
You expected riches with no risk, wealth without work, money without brains.
Amateur, ignorant, greedy ‘real estate seminar jackass’ investors such as yourself deserve the financial ruin that is staring you in the face.
Rot in the hell of your own making.”
I know there are many on here who get mad at us for doing this - but I agree with it! Many of us were told, by the REIC, we were dead wrong on our bubble thesis (and those were the kind words) and this it was different this time. It feels so good to do your homework and be right.
Right now in my neigborhood some LA specualtor purhcased 3 homes in the last year. He paid $550-600k and they all sit empty. Another neighboor talked to him and he is worried. Too Bad sucker. How many famalies could have purchased these homes for $250-300k just three years ago? I hope these homes lead to his financial ruin!!@!@!#!
I vacillate on this issue from moment to moment. At times, I am of the “no mercy for FBs and GFs” mood. Other times, I truly feel sorry for people who were honestly sucked into this mess by dishonest realtors, mortgage brokers, etc.
I think I’ve reached a middle ground lately. In regards to this post, I do think it’s warranted. Why? Unfortunately, there is going to have to be a certain number of sacrificial lambs (FBs and GFs) who take the brunt of this mess in order for the country as a whole to learn a lesson and hopefully make amends to not repeat it. It’s sad because there will undoubtedly be many families whose financial lives will be ruined/permanently damaged by this whole mess.
-
I have no problem with people who want to take risks and gamble their own money and win or lose. But what annoys me is when they don’t want to take responsibility for their actions and they want to “welch” on their bets - or make bets that they couldn’t ever afford to make had they lost. If you want to gamble, fine, but make sure you can and will pay off if you lose. Don’t expect others to subsidize your losses. if you lose, your wages should be garnished until your entire debt is paid! “Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?”
Great article:
In Defense of Scrooge
http://www.mises.org/story/573
Gekko posts “In Defense of Scrooge”
I would expect this from you.
Gekko posts and I quote ….” But what annoys me is when they don’t want to take responsibility for their actions and they want to “welch” on their bets - or make bets that they couldn’t ever afford to make had they lost. If you want to gamble, fine, but make sure you can and will pay off if you lose. Don’t expect others to subsidize your losses.”
You sound a lot like what your hero, GWBush did in Iraq. Gekko too bad it is not just treasure. The blood it the hard part to replace. Too bad a real shame, you should vist a VA Hosptial. The huge unfunded deficit and of course the butchers bill. I don’t understand you? Your Grandkids get the bill and the young pay the butchers bill. None of them “Welch” none even placed a bet.
You and your kind will dream for prison or a workhouse when you burn in hell for ever and a day.
Unfortunately, there is going to have to be a certain number of sacrificial lambs (FBs and GFs) who take the brunt of this mess in order for the country as a whole to learn a lesson and hopefully make amends to not repeat it.
You can’t possibly mean that. Someone who promises to pay back a loan and reneges on the promise is a sacrificial lamb? And now I can learn MY lesson and make amends?
Sorry, but there really a lot of people who did not understand what they were signing up for. This is why I place far more responsibility on the backs of the realtors and the lenders because they did know better than to start handing out exotic loans like candy. How many people in the general population actually understand Time Value of Money concepts? How many actually understand what an amortization table is let alone be prescient enough to ask for one before signing the loan documents?
Look, I’m not calling for a bail out…not in the slightest. I’m just saying that there are going to be a lot people who get hurt and they truly didn’t understand what they were getting into.
Even though I answer “precious few” to both your questions, I don’t see it that way at all. Unless someone signed under threat of torture, imprisonment, or something similar they are 100% responsible. If they lacked either the willingness or the wherewithal to learn what needed to be learn then they shouldn’t be running around signing complicated loan documents. Pay cash or rent. Zero sympathy here.
There will always be people willing and stupid enough to borrow their way to the poor house. I understand the bitterness of those who are tired of hearing from their dumber/braver relatives and friends about how smart real estate is as an investment. We do however want to have an economy where bad loans are bad business. A permanantly indebted underclass is the sort of thing that bankrupy was created to minimize. Yes, reckless stupidity should be punished, but debt peonage may be overkill.
Other times, I truly feel sorry for people who were honestly sucked into this mess by dishonest realtors, mortgage brokers, etc.
Save your energy.
Any prospective home buyer not smart enough to avail themselves of a legit real estate appraiser to give them a supported value and explain the “rules” of the mortgage industry’s rackeetering scam and collusion between sales agent, mortgage L/O and number hitter appraiser deserve everything they get.
Most of these people knew the game.
They chose to stick their heads in the sand, and went with the status quo. In their own minds it was BFD…if worse comes to worse I’ll flip this place and I’m out.
Now the musical chair music has stopped
They chose to be stupid.
And now they’re payin’ the fiddler.
I spend at least 2 months doing research before buying a car or any other major purchase. Just like the law, ignorance is no excuse.
I’m one of those left of the Dems folks and I have no problem with watching many of these people eat beans out of a can on the side of the street some day.
I also do my research (two years before we bought a new car!), but some people do not have the knowledge and research capabilities as most posters do on this blog (why we are here).
Just because it’s easy for you, does not mean it’s easy for everyone else. For years, people relied on Realtors and lenders to inform them of the buying/selling process and limit what they could borrow based on **what they could afford**.
The rules changed with the credit bubble, but nobody informed the masses. I absolutely do not want to see a bailout which keeps prices in the stratosphere, and I think NO flippers should be bailed out of their bad decisions by tax money or the future buying prospects of the informed non-flippers (price affordability).
That being said, I do think there should be plenty of lawsuits filed against every Realtor and mortgage lender out there who knowingly committed fraud. They should have to pay very stiff penalties (as in ALL of their assets) which could be collected and used to bail out the following:
Buyers who did not commit fraud on any documents (docs must be reviewed for every detail) and who are only liable for the purchase money mortgage…AND who have had a health crisis (the only thing I can think of that they have NO control over) which is causing them to lose their home.
The bailout could consist of a 50-year I/O mortgage with a balloon payment upon sale. This would ONLY be available to buyers described above and to those who purchased no more than two homes (trade-up, not concurrently owned) in the past 8 years.
Just an idea…
I am one of those right of Republicans types and I want the real villains of the bubble — the easy-credit enablers — to take it in the shorts. I want the stupid borrowers to get pounded, too, but I want to see endless rounds of litigation spreading the blame to all involved — and it’s a big bunch. That, incidentally, will have the happy effect of keeping the legal industry fat and happy for the next decade or so, which is nice for me.
Millions of borrowers have been dumber than slugs — but shark mortgage brokers have intentionally taken advantage of their stupidity, and that, to me, calls for a good whippin’.
When I saw the glazed look of the 70,000 attendees at the Trump Real Estate Seminar in Los Angeles in 2005, and the number of sales of $7000 video tapes and books, I knew the end was in sight. No one could talk any sense into these “groupies”
they new Trump would make them rich overnight. Multiply Trump by all the other late night TV real estate shows, which promised millions for no work, and that is exactly what kind of person you have now looking for sympathy.
SCREW EM!!!
Gotta love the real estate turnkey gurus. Trump is badmouthing the other infomercial sellers in his TV spots. They have no honor amongst themselves now. How far will the nod-nod/wink-wink fray? Ever hear the term ‘white elephant’ ?
Right on crispy&cole . Like your post .it was all a greed thing ,sell to the greater fool or the family that should of got the property cheaper .
ouch.
I put the ad on the flag forum of CL. It will be gone soon. Also responded in my usual scathing manner which you all have come to either love or hate.
Love!
Love!
That was only suppose to go once. Sorry!
Groupie!! LOL (TM)
LOL
Crispy (TM)
Hey Crispy……….what’s the code for the TM bit?
Do the following without spaces:
” ( T M ) ”
Then go back and delete the quotes. Then hit add comment.
I love it. I always like knowing what people really think. Political correctness got no place in my world.
Yes! You rock, Chrisrose. A scolding on top of a spanking is just what these flopped flippers need and deserve.
Your Humble Servant,
Sammy
crisrose + cris thorn
Well stated!
Exactly, how can you not know some of the basic terms of a loan on what would arguably be one of THE most expensive purchases of your lifetime? Are people really this stupid? (and of course I know they are!)
I always knew that a lot of people were complete dolts. But until I started reading this blog and Ben’s articles, everyone’s comments and experiences, I’m depressed. Why? I would say the MAJORITY of people in the US are completely stupid. I was initially wrong in the *scope* of the stupidity.
I am sure some of you may disagree, but they all are truly sheeple.
I would say the MAJORITY of people in the US are completely stupid. I was initially wrong in the *scope* of the stupidity.
68% of US citizens haven’t read a complete book since graduating from HS.
Your sentiments and pereceptions are not unfounded.
I agree 100% with your post.
“68% of US citizens haven’t read a complete book since graduating from HS.”
Well, the anecdotes in Rich Dad do get a bit tiresome, and skimming leaves you more time to look at realtor.com for investments.
“Lawsuit rumblings are starting: Were you sold a Puffed Overinflated Home Value by a Developer? We’re looking for other folks that were ‘puffed’ on a home purchase that was supposed to appreciate to a value to cover the downpayment and never even came close.”
I think we are officially entering the Anger stage…
That will never fly. Losing argument.
I agree, but I think it’s the first signal that the FB crowd is beginning to realize they are FBs and how they got to that point.
They starting to realize they’re FB’s, but how they got to the point will take a while, if ever.
Much easier to blame others than look in the mirror.
Tough crowd. I know of good honest people who are still trying to buy. They think it is the only way to get ahead. Why? How come if you put money in the bank you know you are losing out? People will only save if there is a positive feedback for savings. If major purchases are skyrocketting and you are getting further behind with your savings or you have been burned in the tech bubble what do you do? “Here is 1000k loan for $800 per month. Look around sonny everyone is driving new $50Kcars and have fabulous homes and you are going to try and save? My how unsophisticated you are. You will never get ahead or manage your finances correctly”. Again why? I would bet >90% of people still think real estate is a good long term investment even at today’s prices. How come that idea is so burned into our psyche?
“Here is 1000k loan for $800 per month. Look around sonny everyone is driving new $50Kcars and have fabulous homes and you are going to try and save? My how unsophisticated you are. You will never get ahead or manage your finances correctly”. Again why? I would bet >90% of people still think real estate is a good long term investment even at today’s prices. How come that idea is so burned into our psyche? Why?”
Empty-headed monkeys are ripe pickins’ for the sociopaths. The sociopaths prey on the stupidity, envy and greed of the empty-headed monkeys.
Before you know it, empty-headed monkeys have zero savings, are living in $500k houses they think are “investments” and driving $50k cars so they can be the same or better than others.
You may be right but are we conditioned??
http://www.silverstrategies.com/story.aspx?local=0&id=5611
FBs are like a bug about to hit a windshield. They have a dim perception that they’re screwed, but lack the intelligence to realize just how badly they’re going to get splattered.
posted “I agree, but I think it’s the first signal that the FB crowd is beginning to realize they are FBs and how they got to that point.”
It is pretty hard to un-sign an contract, you have signed. What if the values went way up and the rated went down. In the early years for this mess they did just that. No body wanted to sue then.
txchick, I think you may be missing the point. You don’t have to make a winning argument if you are looking for a “just go away” settlement.
I wonder how the building industry’s propagandists will spin the anticipated effect of the inexorable upcoming wave of lawsuits on the builders’ bottom lines?
It’s BK time for HB. Stops the lawsuits. American Airlines can show them the way.
I have a well-connected friend who recently bought. I am going to ask him if he has thought of a class action lawsuit to help him recover the $100K-minimum amount that his property value has already dropped, thanks to homebuilder fraud.
BTW, does anyone think it would be worth penning a letter to the CA State Attorney General?
http://vote.ss.ca.gov/Returns/atg/00.htm
GS:
No it won’t do any good, no AG wants to get out in front of an issue and be proactive, too risky.
Better to be reactive from a personal success point of view.
This is issue is going to be a political minefield for all elected officials across all levels (Fed, state and local). I agree that on the whole, they will not want to get out in front of it, but eventually, they will have to address it. It’s at that point, that the whole situation will become the most dangerous for us bubblesitters.
This is issue is going to be a political minefield for all elected officials across all levels (Fed, state and local).
As it should be.
The National Appraisal Standards Board and state licensing agencies were responsible for management and oversight of the ethics and standards for the appraisal profession, in which they failed miserably.
These ivory tower do-nothings have been fully aware of the industry’s blatant fraud and corruption by extensive complaint from failed legit appraiser’s for the last decade, and have turned a blind eye to everything.
Now they’ll feign surprise, and call for bank committee hearings.
Next will come the scapegoating and inevitable crackdowns.
My personal perception is the problem is so huge, and complex they won’t have a clue as to what to do…
However, you can be the regulator’s will go hog wild in the interium as things collapse.
Think sellin’ a house is tough now?
Wait until FIRREA II evolves.
Is that the former Governor of California Jerry Brown?
I’ve already written a letter to Jerry Brown requesting that he take a long hard look at Mr Casey Serin. I’ll mail it as soon as he gets sworn in, along with a copy of the thank you note he sent me for contributing to his campaign.
Class actions are greatly restricted now. It’s not like it was 5 years ago. Doubt he can get a class together.
Not true. Only, someone has to have suffered a legal injury. I am unclear as to what the alleged “homebuilder fraud” could be. You can’t recover against someone for giving their opinion on value. Not to mention, nobody with a brain could reasonably believe a builder’s claim that a unit will appreciate X amount in a year. If said HB believed that then why is it selling in the first place?
There may be agent fraud because they have a duty to disclose a lot of things and are so poorly trained that I’m certain they have no idea as to their obligations. But there is no class action there.
“I am unclear as to what the alleged “homebuilder fraud” could be.”
They used special lenders and special appraisers who somehow hit a number that included the value of a fancy new car or vacation as part of the market value of a home. That sounds like fraud to me, but I am not an attorney nor a real estate professional. Housing Wizard could add his inside knowledge here…
I don’t get this. Was the house itself not what it was represented to be? Square footage off, wrong number of bathrooms, or simply not upt to code. So long as the house is what it was represented to be, why should we allow the buyer to sue because he is now unable to find anyone as dumb as he was buy it from him. Now if the loan was misrepresented he might have a case against the lender, but in the face of signed documents it is very difficult to claim “This is not what I agreed to.”
“Barbara Mattern said she was told by an Altus broker that the monthly payment on her $556,0000 loan would be less than $1,000. But when her first mortgage-payment stub arrived in mid-2005, the principal-and-interest payment was about $3,000, she said.”
“Mattern walked away from the home she loved. The loan was just one factor in her foreclosure. Now she’s living with a relative in Nebraska, and her belongings are in storage. ‘I don’t know what I’m going to do,’ she said. ‘I’m just kind of lost right now.’”
Break out the world’s tiniest violin. Did this idiot even graduate from high school? How could anyone expect the payment on a $500K mortgage to be less than $1K per month? Did she not read the papers she was signing? I would have no mercy on someone like this as a juror or trier of fact.
And here’s the rest of the story here. This broad was also speculating in other houses.
Mattern, 58, walked away from the home she loved. The loan was just one factor in her foreclosure. Others included a divorce, loss of her business, bankruptcy and the purchase and loss of yet another house - in Lakewood.
Now she’s living with a relative in Nebraska, and her belongings are in storage. “I don’t know what I’m going to do,” she said. “I’m just kind of lost right now.”
In a written statement, Rajput said this about the Mattern and Hyder cases:
“In both of these instances, full disclosure was made both verbally, and in writing, through the closing documents. Further, each also had three days after closing, … in which time they could cancel their transaction without penalty. In each of these cases, the customer expressed a need to increase monthly cash flow. In each case that objective was met.”
See? She’s screwed. No case here at all.
My wife and I read this piece this morning. These were pretty much our exact comments; “Did this idiot even graduate from high school? How could anyone expect the payment on a $500K mortgage to be less than $1K per month? Did she not read the papers she was signing?”
Angry minds think alike, I guess.
Then I added, who in the world thinks $550k costs $1k per month? Was she 18 years old and working towards her GED? No, it says she is 58. How does anyone get to be 58 and not know that if it’s too good to be true it’s not!
The whole business smells like a criminal enterprise. Do the mortgage brokers wink across the table at these buyers? Do the buyers wink back? Are the FBers of these overpriced homes/underpriced loans convinced that such easy money can’t be legal and so ask nothing about the terms in case they might queer the deal?
OMFG?!!If this were me I wouldn’t be lost… they would have already found my body hanging from a tree.
Coloradan
My wife and I read this piece this morning. These were pretty much our exact comments; “Did this idiot even graduate from high school?
What if she didn’t ?
Are you a Nobel’s winner ?
What’s the matter guyintucson? Do you have to some homes to sell??
JWM in SD
“What’s the matter guyintucson? Do you have to some homes to sell?? ”
No, i don’t.
I’m in the same house for last 14 years and own it clear.
JWM in SD
“What’s the matter guyintucson? Do you have to some homes to sell??”
No, I don’t. I’m in the same house for last 14 y ( own it clean).
Hi Guyintucson,
I don’t have a Nobel but my brother in law does! He tells me everything I need to know about everything. The only negative about him is that he insists on wearing his doctoral robe, his hood AND tam at EVERY family gathering!
Oh, and he insists we all call him Doctor…
on CNBC there is a commercial every 5 minutes for home loans like this. There are also animated web banners on this site and others advertising loans like this. Part of the reason think these terms are normal, is that we are bombarded with loan offers with payment terms like this.
“No, it says she is 58.”
Another desperate boomer. ABC could make it a series. It could run for 20 years.
This is why it is idiotic to “privatize” Social Secuity.
The same geniuses we see here will do the same stuff with the “Free Money” in their ‘private’ Social Insecurity accounts. The’ll get Trumped-up, Rich Dadded and toxic a-loaned.
When they retire penniless they’ll be incontent on your lawn.
They might even be some of your relatives. Think how many here have family members who jumped the real estate shark and went and truly f@cked themselves. Now imagine they do it with their last Social Security check.
Sorry honey I gambled away my Social Security in Dubai timeshares. I’m moving in next week. I’ll be staying until I’m dead. Aunt Hilda is moving in too. I know she’s totally crazy, but she’ went in with me on the deal. Make sure to lock up all the knives and liquor. love, Dad.
Good statement on Social Security. This is a topic I have had a running disagreement with my “by the book Republican Conservative Limbuagh ditto head” wife (I’m conservative …but not by the book Republican). The Republican plan of privatizing Social Security would be a long term disaster. It is the ONLY fallback a lot of people have and in a sense is a public insurance policy to make sure we don’t have millions of indigent senor citizens. Most people are just too irresponsible to save and plan for their retirement. I just heard some statistics the other day that something like 60% of boomers had NO retirement savings at all. My dad is a great example. Real nice guy, but once his health didn’t allow him to work he lived off his Social Security and small V.A. disability. Spent every nickel he had when he was health having fun. His final Social Security monthly payments were not a whole lot, but it paid for his middle of the road assisted living apartment and left him with a little pocket change. He never asked my brothers or I for a dime. But without Social Security he would have been penniless. I have learned many financial lessons from him…i.e. to do the opposite. If he was younger, he would have been one of the folks that we laugh at on this blog…looking for the quick deal, the way to make an easy buck, etc.
Yes, indeed. Because some people are idiots with money ALL people must pay.
Good, “fair”, thought process…kinda communitarian in nature.
“In both of these instances, full disclosure was made both verbally, and in writing, through the closing documents.”
=====
I have to wonder: In what mindset do people enter closing? At our closing, I assumed - until proven otherwise - that every page I signed was an attempt to cheat us of something. (And I did catch one discrepancy. I refused to sign anymore documents until we got compensation - which we quickly got.)
TxChick posts ” See? She’s screwed. No case here at all.”
I agree 100% but the jac$$ that lent her the money should go to jail. She should get her GED and never be loaned a cent again.
Maybe the juror’s in the OJ trial were a lot like Mattern. Stupid and ignorant of facts, or just believed what they wanted to believe.
captian post ” Stupid and ignorant of facts, or just believed what they wanted to believe.”
None of these are a defence in any type of law. All that will get you is 25 to Life.
No need to be soo harsh. The aftermath of this frenzy is going to be very ugly and its going to pull down alot of people who just were not sophisticated enough to realize they were being taken. I assume that many of you negative posters are tax payers? Well guess who always cleans up these financial messes? So if personal direct legal action can be taken by the duped parties (naive, stupid, greedy or other) then that will lessen the burden on a tax payer bailout.
Regarding the merits of the craigslist request, you have a very tough uphill battle. Despite all the oral assertions, promises and BS spewed by the agents, the developer etc, all that really counts in the eyes of the court is the written contract. I highly doubt any of the puffery of the sales pitch is in the contract. In fact all contracts have clauses that disclaim the existance of any other sort of side deals, promises or assertions. The contact was for the sale of a house at price X and which was habitable, that is all, nothing more nothing less. (w/ all the requested features/options)
The only contractual legal theory/hope you have is the doctrine of “Promissory Estoppel” (read you must honor your promises). Many standard form contracts have “Anti-Promissory Estoppel” clauses. Even if the contract does not have such a clause its very hard to prove. You must show with evidence that you detrimentally relied upon the promise, that the other party knew or should have know you’d rely upon it and that by relying upon it the other party was unjustly enriched. This theory is used normally when there is no contract. So as between you and the developer this will not work. However, the agent’s for the developer and your agent are usually independent contractors. Thus since they got a cut of the action and their promises (lies) got you to sign the contract then you might have an action against them. You had an agency relationship with your buying/selling agent and as such s/he has a duty to you, i.e. they should not lie to you nor disclose to the other party your bargaining positions. Agents violate this all the time because how are you going to prove otherwise and all they want to do is get there comission. Thus the modern agent views themselves as deal makers and not employees who are to be loyal to their employer.
An alternate legal theory of fraud by dint may work if linkage b/t the developer and their agents can be established in regards to the promises (lies). Then there might be legal relief that way, under fraud/misrepresentation on the contract and by dint of agency law, but proof in both cases is going to be difficult.
Do your best to sell or rent the dwelling. If you cannot keep up with the carrying costs and you want to keep the home then work with the lender. I imagine banks will be getting very creative the next few years to keep from foreclosing on all the realty that’s tettering out there right now. If that does not work and you want the home then consider bankruptcy. If you do not want the home then considering deed in lieu (DIL). The later is not pretty on you credit but its better than a foreclosure. Banks do not mind DIL because it avoids the costs associated with foreclosure.
Do not do anything stupid or illegal, it will come back to haunt you in the end. Sometimes you just have to take the hit, learn your lesson and then move forward with your life. I am speaking from experience because I just lost 65k on the sale of my new home just to move forward with my life and career. The lies I was told were outrageous and in the sale I highly suspect my agent played me and to get teh deal cut. I will be financially crippled for years from this, renting a place less than 1/2 the size of my home and just selling everything I now have in storage and my car just to get some sort of downpayment and stop having ot pay monthly storage fees. If the smoking gun turns up then I will sue, but I know the chances are slim to none and that its better to move on knowing that what goes around comes around in life.
Good luck.
“The aftermath of this frenzy is going to be very ugly and its going to pull down alot of people who just were not sophisticated enough to realize they were being taken.”
I’m not so sure. We just had the NASDAQ crash before the bubble took off. Stock market plunge. Companies & jobs disappearing. The country dipped into recession. If that wasn’t a lesson in what happens when markets disconnect from fundamentals, I don’t know what is.
Folks just looked for the next “easy” thing. Forget about saving and living within your means. That’s so old economy. The RE bubble has been so much about greed, more so than stupidity.
Forget about saving and living within your means.
———————–
As others here have said before, we were trying to “save” our money in 2004, and had a difficult time just trying to get a .87% rate. There was no incentive to save and every incentive to play fast and loose with mortgage money (people were making $10K+ a month on starter homes at the time).
Sorry, but the FBs did not exist in a vacuum. The Fed and all the leverage in the world caused returns to dip to negative levels, inflation-adjusted. In the meantime, waitresses and shoe salespeople were offered mortgages of $300K and up — AND IT WAS ALMOST RISK-FREE to gamble in the housing market.
I place blame squarely on the Fed and regulators. They knew what was going on, IMHO, and allowed it to grow into a full-blown mania. The losers/gamblers are always there in the shadows; it’s the regulators that gave them the “free” money to gamble with.
posted ” “the BK laws will be rewritten to keep these fools from killing themselves””
No they were written so they would croke themselves.
Excellent post, Joe. You’re easier on the FBs than I would be, but you presented lots of good information.
Thanks,
Sammy
Joe posts “No need to be soo harsh. The aftermath of this frenzy is going to be very ugly and its going to pull down alot of people who just were not sophisticated enough to realize they were being taken. I assume that many of you negative posters are tax payers?
There is a differance between being “negative” and being a “realist” or just having common sence. Remember the happy, realist or thoese with common sence all pat taxes too.
Plenty of dumbells made money in this last run-up and some “smart people have lost money. What triggers the law-suit? People wanting to be made whole again after the , times and markets have turned against them.
That is it. Where do I go to get my money back? Sorry just like baseball there is no crying in RE Investments.
“I am speaking from experience because I just lost 65k on the sale of my new home just to move forward with my life and career.”
That $65k is a major hit, but you’ll recover eventually. Just imagine what it will feel like in 2007 taking a major six-digit loss? The salaried Joe Sixpack(s) just can’t recover from a hit like that; the BK laws will be rewritten to keep these fools from killing themselves.
“the BK laws will be rewritten to keep these fools from killing themselves”
- - - - -
I’ve wondered if the new BK laws will backfire. Instead of helping creditors, the laws might only enlarge the under-the-table labor pool. Workers might say: Garnish my wages? Just try.
Forclosure where the property does not sell to cover the loan results in a deficiency judgment that attaches to the person, i.e. yes they can garnish your wages. I do not know how the BK laws handle the discharging of a deficiency judgment resulting from a foreclosure.
Joe:
“Despite all the oral assertions, promises and BS spewed by the agents, the developer etc, all that really counts in the eyes of the court is the written contract. I highly doubt any of the puffery of the sales pitch is in the contract. In fact all contracts have clauses that disclaim the existance of any other sort of side deals, promises or assertions.”
You do know that you can’t waive fraud, right? If you can prove the other party to a contract made material misrepresentations to induce you to enter into the contract, a recital in the contract that no other misrepresentations were made, or are actionable, will not be binding.
Finding the “smoking gun,” of course, is the hard part. A plaintiff would generally be trying to prove oral misrepresentations by a broker, which the broker will of course deny. The terms of the contract, on the other hand, are right there in black and white. It’s an uphill battle for a plaintiff, but not an impossible one.
All defenses to formation of the contract are on the table. Fraud is one of them, but as we both agree, proof is the touchstone of the problem and I highly doubt such proof exists or accessible to the party who is facing the music of a bad deal. “Hey its just the market” will be the mantra of the manipulators who got us into all of this.
See Mr. Shillings analysis for the taxpayer manifestations:
http://www.investorsinsight.com/thoughts.aspx
the $100K-minimum amount that his property value has already dropped, thanks to homebuilder fraud.
If the actual value of his property dropped, that’s just the market, Charlie.
If the builder got him to pay an inflated price by materially misrepresenting the house, well that’s fraud.
My understanding from a recent thread here is that the builders had special lenders and special appraisers who helped them with the problem of construing the value of a fancy vacation or new automobile as part of the appraised value of the home. That sounds like lending fraud to me.
Yes and the ‘homebuyer’ was in on the fraud - not a victim of it.
My mind goes crazy with the different lawsuits that could be filed ,but in a mania everyone is blinded by greed so they are in a weak position often times when they complain about being taken advantage of .I’m sure there are cases were people were really taken advantaged of or swindled ,but alot of these cases are just people who are pissed off their investment didn’t work out .
The subject of mortgage people pushing people into bad loans they didn’t qualify for, while getting higher commissions ,will generate alot of lawsuits IMH .
Also ,builders are really vunerable to all sorts of lawsuits involving the hanky-panky dealings that might prove less than acceptable to lenders ,along with material and building defect lawsuits .
Contract law is pretty strong ,so people who signed contracts will have to have alot of proof that they were the victims of bad faith or fraud .
Right. Doesn’t mean they won’t try (egged on by lawyers) but guess who will make the money on those cases? The same people that always do!
Exactly - if any money is made on any of these lawsuits, it will be the attorneys. The defense attorneys have got to be licking their lips on these because all of these builders, mortgage brokers, etc. will need to defend these frivolous suits, and these companies will pay. The lawyers taking this trash on contingency, well good luck. Don’t get me wrong, I think the defendants in these suits are for the most part scum, but, the plaintiffs (investors, f’d buyers, etc.) that didn’t do their homework, didn’t read their contracts, believed what the realtor told them, etc. have an uphill battle to convince me they should be compensated for their stupidity or greed.
Absolutely. Defense firms will love this and will be working for years to come.
heh heh heh.
Note me egging some people one in several posts, above.
“egging some people *on*”
At one time, I believed we would see a flood of home owner lawsuits. I don’t believe that anymore. The theory of the case is too weak. Lawyers won’t take these suits on a contingency basis, and the FB’s can’t afford to pay hourly.
Mike Morgan has been making the legal rounds with his suit against Lennar. He actually has what sounds to be reasonable suit (shoddy workmanship). Haven’t heard much about this lately, and the last I heard, law firms were turning him down.
The big lawsuits, really ripe for huge litigation, will be between the lenders and MBS buyers.
Especially the defense bar. The builders, realtors, mortgage brokers, etc. will have to defend these suits and pay hefty hourly fees in the process. The attorneys that take these cases on a contingency basis, thinking they’re going to make out are in for an uphill climb. Don’t get me wrong, I think the defendants in these suits are scum, but last time I checked, being greedy and/or just plain stupid are not compensable causes of action.
Sorry for the multiple posts - neither one showed up after a refresh, so I figured that I included an obscenity or something which got them kicked.
IMHO, the big lawsuits will be along the morgage broker, agregator, MBS purchaser axis. Firstly, because the amounts of money involved are bigger, it obviates the need to creat a “class action to get into the 7-10 figure range. Also as we here from some of the brokers here, many of the LTV and income levels are so obviously off there would seem to be a good case that they constituted fraud.
Seller need oxygen - please help:
http://bakersfieldbubble.blogspot.com
With a guy who advertizes his nickname “Lu Jack”, I think you need to take anything he says with a very large grain of salt.
posted “Lu Jack” it is backward code for fu@k you
I propose a class-action lawsuit on behalf of normal, productive, law-abiding, tax-paying citizens who are stuck footing the bill and living with the consequences of letting imbeciles breed and multiply. Seriously. I watched “Lock-up” (NBC?) last night, and they had these she-creatures, horrible to behold, in a women’s prison who were habitual offenders and breed like jackrabbits — one meth addict/burglar had three babies by the age of 20, no doubt by even bigger losers than herself.
Enough! Society has a right to police its gene pool. So, those that are paying the bills should sue the social parasites and their enablers (starting with the Democratic Party, though the Republicrats are almost as bad), and as part of the settlement, all the cretins will get a court-ordered sterilization and a box-car ride to Moronville, a tent camp to be built in whatever state has the lowest aggregate IQ score and lots of Superfund sites to build on. Keep the place stocked with booze, meth, whatever, but keep them all on their side of the wire and let the genetic imbecility and criminality die out with their generation.
Hear, hear! But, careful, that state - the one with lowest IQ - may in fact be California. (CA, NV, MS, LA, AR were the five lowest in the last set of HS standardized test scores I saw.)
Some day if you really want to laugh at some sick scatalogical stuff, check out a site called “Childfree Hardcore” It never fails to crack me up.
she-creatures, horrible to behold, in a women’s prison who were habitual offenders and breed like jackrabbits
————————————–
Sammy,
Don’t forget to sterilize the scum who get these women pregnant, and probably have “fathered” even more babies than these women.
I agree with you…but had to comment that it is would impossible for men to father more babies than the women have had…unless of course they father some with sheep or other species (which wouldn’t surprise me).
LOL! Yes, I suppose when one looks at the total population, but many would like to look only at “welfare moms” and blame them for all the ills of society. I see it differently. I think if the men who impregnated them were honest and responsible people (either by using birth control or marrying/taking care of the families they help create), these women would not be on welfare at all. I’ve seen more “welfare dads” with 14+ children, and the women they impregnated are desperately trying to make ends meet. Just MHO.
Does this mean that I can sue all these stock newsletters that I suscribe to where I didn’t make a bundle? Please, the only ones who get rich in class action lawsuits are the lawyers. The people who lost money will get coupons for $25 each at home depot.
The Craigslist posting has been removed. Did anyone keep a copy?
Were you sold a Puffed Overinflated Home Value by a Developer
———————————————————–
Apply to: hous-234418800@craigslist.org
Date: 2006-11-13, 7:34PM EST
We’re looking for other folks that were “puffed” on a home purchase that was supposed to appreciate to a value to cover the downpayment and never even came close. Also, told it would rent for about the mortgage value and will never rent for near that. We are seeking a competent attorney that can help represent others like us to come out with some fair amicable solution with these developers.
Can anyone can help us prevent a financial disaster? Any good advice is appreciated!
Thank you greatly.
http://fortmyers.craigslist.org/rfs/234418800.html
Luuuuuuuuuuzzzzzzzzzzzaaarrrrrrrssssssss…..
Posts ” We’re looking for other folks that were “puffed” on a home purchase?
Stick you head out the window.
posted “Were you sold a Puffed Overinflated Home Value by a Developer
We’re looking for other folks that were “puffed” on a home purchase that was supposed to appreciate to a value to cover the downpayment and never even came close. Also, told it would rent for about the mortgage value and will never rent for near that. We are seeking a competent attorney that can help represent others like us to come out with some fair amicable solution with these developers.
Can anyone can help us prevent a financial disaster? Any good advice is appreciated!
Thank you greatly.
Sorry for reposting this but this is the richest thing I have ever read on the Blog. I made my jokes and could make a ton more but, why kick a dead horse or house (sorry).
Bottom line if the lender used fraud they should go to jail. If they lent money you could not pay back, they should not have lent it. If you did not read or understand what you signed or did not have the means to pay it back….GOOD GOD man what can be done for you?
The bomb already went off, it blew your money to “money heaven” nothing left to do but shoot the wounded.
I wouldn’t use the word “puff.” Believe it or not, there is actually a formal doctrine in the law of fraud called “puffery.” Sellers are allowed to “puff” their wares — i.e. give hyperbolic, exaggerated descriptions, like “This house will make all your wildest dreams come true!” — and even if they’re technically false, they’re not actionable.
My immediate impression is that you might have a hard time getting a court to view a prediction about the future appreciation of your house as a firm promise, as opposed to a non-actionable statement of opinion. (Although there is a little leeway there — if an opinion is stated as fact, or if there is an implication that the person expressing the opinion has knowledge justifying the opinion, the statement may qualify as a material misrepresentation.)
The statement about how much rent you could get might be a little firmer basis for a fraud claim. It’s generally easier to maintain a fraud action based on a false statement about a present condition (i.e. the prevailing rental rates) than upon a prediction that doesn’t come true. (”Prediction is hard,” said Niels Bohr, “especially when it’s about the future.”)
Keep in mind that I’m usually on the developer’s side in cases like this, so for heaven’s sake don’t rely on my opinion. On the other hand, don’t let anyone tell you you absolutely have no case, because I’m not sure that’s true.
Coupla Reads:
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-re-bonus19nov19,1,5959145.story?coll=la-headlines-business&ctrack=1&cset=true
http://www.iddmagazine.com/idd//NYTSStories/nytsstories.cfm?id=13324&issueDate=current
http://papers.nber.org/papers/w12696
I have always believed that, if your plan was to round up a large number of sheeple and shear ‘em so hard that they were left bleeding, you’d better do it in some third world country — or maybe a place like Russia where they have a long tradition of serfdom. In the good, old U.S. of A., folks who get clipped invariably turn out to be sore losers. It doesn’t matter that they were greedy, irresponsible, short-sighted, and therefore at least partly culpable. At the end of the day, when fit hits the shan, somebody’s gonna have to stay after school. If I’d been an aggressive player in the REIC during the boom, I would definitely be doing some research on which countires currently have extradition treaties with the U.S. covering economic crimes . . .
There’s a thought — let’s send all our imbeciles to Chernobyl. Something like one in five Russian babies are born sub-normal due to the mother’s drinking, so our Wal-Mart shoppers would fit right in.
The drinking mothers don’t live near Chernobyl.
A few years back I saw to TV special on Chernobyl. The whole area’s more or less a national park now, and the wildlife is thriving.
Interesting read and pictures…
http://www.kiddofspeed.com/
“We’re looking for other folks that were ‘puffed’ on a home purchase that was supposed to appreciate to a value to cover the downpayment and never even came close.””
No ! But in 2002 when I was in the market several realtors told me I had to overbid by 10% or more due to other multiple bidders in the market. So I did put in an offer after being told there were 10 other offers out there with no counters, one bid only– best bid wins. From what I was hearing , this was very common. Mine (15% over asking $400K) was the highests and thus was accepted. However I backed out due to possible job loss from my employer. I found out later the home sold a mear 1.5% above asking. Even in 2006, I go out to open houses, I still hearing from realtors.. “We expect this place to move fast” so expect to put in your best bid. After hearing about all the freudalent appraisals nation-wide i been out of the market for a while.
If this isnt a fraud, then I dont know what is.
That wasn’t fraud. That was pure stupidity — yours.
Agreed! But how many others also fell into all the hype of muliple bids. Plenty! That is why the markets are really out of wack. I consider myself much more luckier and wiser for it.
BTW, we didnt have internet access to sales prices back then and many today still dont know.
Absolutely not true. If a bid was induced by a false representation that there was another bid outstanding, that’s take-it-to-the-bank fraud.
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This would have worked if you had put a space before the ‘(’
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crisrose = cris thorn
crisrose = Chris Thornberg???
realtor™
I know this is a rite of passage on this board — just wanted to see if I could do it. :>)
Realtor®
To me it’s really low taking advantage of a stupid person such as many sharks did during this housing mania .They are human beings no matter how low the IQ points .
Masses of people made investment mistakes during this housing mania ,but there was a big campaign going on to make people believe that they weren’t gambling but rather making a sound real estate investment . Many people were told they would be priced out forever if they didn’t buy now .
How much did the main media print counter-data to the NAR/realtor /mortgage agent spin going on and we all know where the advertising dollars came from .
The people on a mass level were brainwashed ,( shows you what advertising dollars can do ).
I don’t think you can win a lawsuit by saying you were brainwashed ,and many of these lawsuits will just look like sour grapes over a investment turning bad . If you signed those contracts it’s hard to prove you were taken advantage of .
I don’t think a lawyer could win a class action lawsuit based on people being brainwashed by a mania in which the media failed
in questioning the big Real Estate Campaign going on Nationwide .
Maybe a lawyer could win a case against the lenders putting people on loans they didn’t qualify for ,but look at how many people lied on their loan application because they were caught up in the greedy frenzy .
All I can predict is that there will be a ton of lawsuits .
How about the lenders sending a notary out to your house at 9:00 pm to sign documents that “NEED to be in tommorrow” — and those documents have no resemblance to the GFE and terms agreed to prior to “signing” — only to have the notary promise that everything could be straightened out tomorrow, but they need the signature first.
I’ve heard of this happening many times during the boom. Even had it happen to me where the terms were changed multiple times by the originator (I pulled out of the contract).
Not all FBs were idiots, and there have been many instances where lenders/originators were attempting to be deceitful and manipulative.
Yes , I agree with you . If the FB signed those loan docs instead of walking they are in a hard position to prove they were s–ewed . I guess people have to start asking for their docs 10 days ahead of closing so they can walk on bad docs . It’s rotten what some of these mortgage punks were doing to people .
You can’t waive fraud. If you had solid proof — say, a videotape of a lender saying “The 1.25% is all the interest you have to pay” — then even if the actual loan terms were set out in the contract documents, the lender would have his a** liened, garnished, and served up with an apple between the cheeks.
(I’m feeling a little uncouth this morning.)
The problem, of course, is going to be in the he-said-she-said wars about exactly what BS the broker spewed to get the gullible buyer to sign. But even if a borrower was negligent in failing to read the loan documents, if it can be proven that misrepresentations were actually made outside the four corners of the documents, the defrauding party can’t escape liability.
Yeah, their swelling belly is sufficient evidence that the FBs were screwed. The only questions are by whom and did they agree to the process.
“All I can predict is that there will be a ton of lawsuits .”
And that will be very expensive for those being sued.
I’m going to sue Suzanne..she said that she had researched this and….
Timing and Execution
I could have bought several R2P properties (up to 2 units on a lot. Many already built) in the ’70s for as low as $31k. Kept watching while admiring the community college art instructor I rented from at age 19 continued to acquire more than the dozen he already had at positive cash flow. Only got my primary residence. He had both vision and timing.
Pipe dream now - the numbers no longer work. When the cash flow is positive again in 5 to fifteen years, then it is time to buy or invest. It is no longer. One cannot wish an opportunity, only wait and be fully and financially prepared to seize it when it comes.
The time will come again, but likely in the 15-to-20 year cycle. I have great empathy for those wanting to buy in. Rent and save and watch the market. Had I had more balls (formal version), I’d have been a millionaire by now. I didn’t, but I have a great old house.
Timing and execution - Maybe you can tell I have no kids but would pass this on if I did. Historical perspective from a relic -
Uh oh. I sense a new crime on the books to cater to these total losers who thought they could affort a 500,000 loan, “Puffery”.
“Your honor! The defendant puffed my client!”
posted ” “Your honor! The defendant puffed my client!”
How would you feel haveing been convicted of Puffery in the first degree? Or worse yet a serial puffer. The shame, the shame even imploder and his fellow bums would cast him out from under the bridge he calls home. Best to brand a 4 inch P on thier foreheads!
LOL …..so funny
Uh oh. I sense a new crime on the books to cater to these total losers who thought they could afford a 500,000 loan, “Puffery”.
“Your honor! The defendant puffed my client!”
Believe it or not, “puffery” is actually a recognized legal doctrine. It allows sellers to “puff” — make hyperbolic statements of opinion about — their wares, without being exposed to fraud liability. “This product will make all your wildest dreams come true” is non-actionable “puffery,” while “this VW Beetle can go 0-60 in 4.2 seconds” is actionable fraud.
How about “fluffing”?