‘Wondering Whether California Is Paradise’
The Union Tribune reports on San Diego’s housing bubble. “California’s population growth last year continued to slow as more people exited the state than moved here, fueled in part by the steady rise in already high housing prices. San Diego County posted its slowest rate of population growth in a decade.”
“‘I think the rose is off of California as the land of opportunity,’ said Ed Shaffer, senior demographer with the San Diego Association of Governments. ‘What’s changed is we’re not noticing an increase in people leaving, but instead, there are fewer people coming here from within the U.S.,’ Howard Roth, chief economist for the Department of Finance speculated. ‘The first thing that comes to mind is housing prices.’”
The Sacramento Bee. “Lately, Sacramento County can hardly replace residents as fast as it loses them. Last year, the county’s population grew at a slow pace not seen since the late 1990s. The trend hit most surrounding counties and the rest of the state, too. Ditto for California as a whole, lower domestic migration brought down the growth rate. California lost slightly more people to other states than it drew last year.”
“People considering a move here are now wondering ‘whether this is paradise,’ said Rob Wassmer, professor at California State University, Sacramento. ‘It’s still positive. (The growth rate) is more than other parts of the country. But I don’t think it’s surprising that it’s going down.’”
“Wassmer and several other economic and demographic experts agree about the main cause of the trend: rising home prices.”
No link is available for this New Times story. “Bill Seavey is tired of trying to sell his Grover Beach home. It’s been on the market since last July, and the one offer he got was so much lower than his original asking price that he decided to turn it down. That was in November, and he says now he wishes he’d taken the offer because he hasn’t had another one since.”
“And he’s continued to lower the price, to no avail. He’s decided to try a a ’round robin’ auction on March 18. If things go as planned, Seavey’s home will sell at a competitive price. In the current ’soft market’ this might seem like an unreasonably high goal for a home seller to have, but Seavey says that this is exactly the kind of market his method is mean for, and it’s a win-win situation for both the buyer and the seller.”
And from the Bakersfield Californian. “Bakersfield’s real estate market may be cooling, but it’s still ranked among the nation’s top 20 metropolitan areas for house price appreciation. Local prices began leveling off last summer and have dipped slightly in recent months. In January, Bakersfield’s median house price was $277,591, a 4.8 percent dip from the month before, according to data from local appraiser Gary Crabtree.”
“‘It’s too early for us to tell if this is a permanent trend or if this is just a typical winter market,’ he said. The number of houses on the market has now climbed to nearly 2,800, up from around 800 in June.”
“Some sellers have slashed their asking prices, while others have started offering buyer incentives. Investors hoping to make a quick turnaround for a big gain are also losing interest.”
“Still, Bakersfield is fortunate, said real estate agent Jon Busby. ‘It’s not going to plummet like maybe other areas may,’ said Busby.”
Thanks to the readers who copied, emailed and tipped off this blog to these stories. The Bakersfield article is from March 1st; due to the way that site works, I can’t find a usable direct link.
[I think the rose is off of California as the land of opportunity]
Gee, Do ya think?
Q: When the flower comes off the rose what’s left?
A: A bunch of thorns.
The flower has been off for a long time…
Try Paradise Lost…
Paradise was lost from about 1973 on. After that it started getting too crowded, too expensive, and too Third World.
It is truly amazing that everyone wants to live here, nonetheless. It does not say much for the rest of the world…
You trying moving to other parts of our world and make money. It is not easy. “Traveling” and “Seeing the world” is truely a first-world phenonmena. California rules. Where are you going to move, Crap-chester NY? Memphis, TN to cut a record with Sam Phillips? Give me a break.
The other 49 have realized that the state is controlled by a bunch of loonatic closet communists. It has created a culture that is more phucked up and decadent than then Caligula, the Roman, could ever have imagined.
No it hasn’t. You have no idea what you are talking about. Go crawl back under your rock.
And, uh, nice wholesome name you have there. You kiss your children with that mouth?
I LOVE California. I moved here and I will never leave. 300 days of sunshine a year…awsome mountains and beaches. For my hobbies…it just dosn’t get better.
I live in a small town…not one of the big cities, so my idea of CA is probably diffrent than many folks.
I love California and live right next to downtown San Diego.
But I got here awhile back and don’t face traffic.
Yes, I know I lucked out. I still enjoy it.
Just don’t make me move to Temecula.
sounds SO familiar to the Netherlands … just a few years ago officials were still expecting population growth to top out around 2020 at over 20 million (currently 16.5 million) which of course was good news for the RE mob.
Now suddenly net migration numbers are turning negative (emigration is booming and even the most lazy migrants have discovered that the Netherlands is not the promised land). Dutch families are cutting back on their family planning because of a bad economy (both partners have to work and there is no money left for children after it is spent on the home) and changes in society. If it weren’t for the new migrants with their usually larger families, population growth would already be negative just like the migration numbers.
Not to worry. Those new migrants are well on their way to turning the Netherlands into an Islamic colony. Then your burka-clad women will bred whether they want to or not.
I think the Dutch are aware of their immigrant problems and are beginning to demand that their immigrants respect the Dutch culture or get the hell out. Whether or not forcing people to behave a certain way will work is something we’ll just have to wait and see.
Just watch what kind of cartoons you publish…
Ironically evolution may indeed favor forced breeding.
Please forgive, it is even more disturbing to write, than to read.
“It’s been on the market since last July, and the one offer he got was so much lower than his original asking price that he decided to turn it down. That was in November, and he says now he wishes he’d taken the offer because he hasn’t had another one since.”
“And he’s continued to lower the price, to no avail. He’s decided to try a a ’round robin’ auction on March 18. If things go as planned, Seavey’s home will sell at a competitive price. In the current ’soft market’ this might seem like an unreasonably high goal for a home seller to have, but Seavey says that this is exactly the kind of market his method is mean for”
LMAO, I just love fools giving themselves advice.
I have been selling RE for 13 years now and have no idea WTF a “Round robin auction” is =)
I just love that this chump. He can’t (won’t) sell his home, yet he feels experienced enough to decide “that this is exactly the kind of market his method is mean for”
I must have my back up!! All I can say is I hope this dipstick is miserable and loses his ass!!
How much you wanna bet that the offer he huffily rejected was for more money than he is now listed at.
You know this bozo musta turned down more money than he can now get. Welcom to the wonderful world of chasing the market down with stupid piddley reductions (anything less than tens of thousands or more =).
It just cracks me up to see $500 price reductions on crapboxes worth $120k (IMO) listed for $300k+. I would fire one of my sellers If they told me to reduce a listing by $500, simply a waste of everyones time that will eventually have them made at me because they ignored my initial advice on pricing to be the next to sell.
If I understand correctly, a round robin auction is sorta like the raises in poker, where everyone gets a chance to match or raise whatever the highest bid is. From a purely theoretic standpoint, an auction is an efficient way for him to find the selling price. He is kicking himself for not selling before, but at least he sees the error of his ways. Plenty of other people still don’t, and they’ll continue to hold out, hanging on to losers all the way to the bottom.
If you want, you can check out the house to be auctioned at http://www.ABeachTown.com.
The owner plans to start bidding at 274,500, but according to the New Times article, he expects that house to sell for about 450,000, which he estimates is currently the “fair market value”. He is quoted as saying that you aren’t expected to pre-qualify for a loan or to have a deposit on hand to bid, and he will award the house to the “highest quality bidder” at the end of the auction. Again, according to the New Times article, the seller did this type of auction successfully once before with a condo Pasadena, and he says it is easy. Seems like a headache to me, and maybe a little risky (i.e. is he legally obligated to let the place go for 274.5 if nobody beats that price? what if the deal with the “highest quality” bidder falls through? then he has to go down the list?)
I am curious to hear about the outcome of this. I imagine that if he manages to get a good price, it will be all over the local news, but if it goes badly, I will never get to hear what happened.
What? No granite counter tops? And where’s the damn shower curtain rod? LOL! I guess he didn’t get the memo on the counter tops.
BayQT~
After looking at the house, I would not pay more then 290,000 . The house is outdated and needs work. The only redeeming quality is a beach is near.
Maybe I’ll stop buy, see how it goes, and report back (I’m probably 5 minutes away)…it should be interesting to see what the interest level is, and how much it ends up going for.
That is true for quite a bit of the real estate around here. I have never lived anywhere walls have been so thin. Or maybe the noise is a factor of small lot sizes. There are some truly lovely views around here, but building quality seems poor.
stop “by”, not “buy”, sorry…
arroyogrande -
I’d love to hear how this turns out. I’m up in San Luis, so not so close. Please post anything you learn. Or it might make a good topic for the centralcoast housing blog.
stop “by”, not “buy”, sorry…
A Freudian slip, showing your unconscious urges and desires?
Like far out, Dudes. The ocean’s like in the garage! WOW!
Let’s see….kitchen was last updated during the Nixon administration….and only 10 blocks to the beach? That’s a bit too far to walk, don’t you think?
Let’s see….kitchen was last updated during the Nixon administration….and only 10 blocks to the beach? That’s a bit too far to walk, don’t you think?
Easy - you just drive your car down to the beach. The parking is free.
With global warming, beach come to you!
With global warming, beach come to you!
LOL!
Grover Beach has one of the highest crimes rates in San Lius Obispo County - it is a true crap hole for that kind of cash. That 10 block walk to the beach might just cost you your life!
$295K is the max that place is worth - good luck buddy.
Groovy garage door, LOL.
Hopefully he’ll set a reserve price in his round robin auction scheme. But… why not just lower the price?
Everything south of Grand Avenue is a POS. Will look it up on the MLS. Would think 225k is tops, unless buyer is drunk.
He’s a damn fool. A Dutch Auction is the way to sell a property in a weak market. Lower the price 5% per month, and promote it heavily until someone bites. Simple, and you’ll get about the best price you can expect.
I’m seeing way to many games being played by listing agents / sellers right now. All that can achieve is to further reduce confidence in the market.
> All that can achieve is to further reduce confidence
> in the market.
YEA! Keep it up, REs…
A fool yes he is. I was surprised no one here caught the real problem of why it’s difficult for him to sell his property. If you look at both sides of you will see for lack of a better word “conforming” properties. Nice curb appeal front yards etc. If you look at his with that mural on it he looks like the neighborhood weirdo. The one property that all the neighbors wish would go away. He should have embraced any offer like it was the last one on earth.
On his site he mention’s that his technique is not known to realtors, seller, buyers etc. Their are some variation’s of that now but it’s called range pricing ie: the seller will accept a price in the range of 395k to 425k.
Another smart guy in route too losing his a$$. It’s getting funnier by the day.
if that is so, dont you still need more than one bidder?
My only comment is that this topic may generate the highest number of responses yet
TXchick
I think you should start your own blog: How to make money in a down stock market. It sounds like you know your stuff. I would like to know more about bonds. You talked a little about that in a previous post. I still do not completely understand the inverted yield curve and the impacts it has. My gold (gld) and silver stock (paas) are doing quite well and are up 30% since I bought them. Any thought?
Check out GRS, on fire!! Just started production and only assayed 30% of their land.
I wish I had bought GRS about three years ago! It sounds like they mine gold? Do you own some?
Thats all I buy is Gold. Silver is a good purchase also…
PGMs (platinum-group metals) aren’t bad for a little diversification, too–especially platinum and palladium
Canada’s now striking a palladium Maple Leaf.
GRS is primarily a silver miner, they do have a decen percentage of gold mixed in. I bought up several silver miners to enjoy the coming bull market in silver due to many pressures, mainly the new ETF Barcleys is setting up.
Down stock markets are my favorite. I feel a real avalanche coming soon. Fully loaded with index puts and ready to rock and roll. When you see the crap like AVNX jumping around like it is, the end is near.
Thanks for the kind words.
HaHaHaHa! Where is HedgeFundAnalyst anymore to tell us what a great time it is to buy stocks?
Consider that nearly all of the new California “residents” are migrants who make under 20-30K a year, per adult. At that rate, it takes about 6 working adults to afford the median priced home.
So even with all this “massive immigration” that supposedly will continue to boost RE prices, you have to divide the number by 4-6 just to even it out.
Also, they bring a much heavier public tax burden on each community, as would any predominatly low wage group. California is replacing high wage jobs with ever lower paying ones in the service industry.
I left Santa Barbara because as a community, there is no middle class, only limo liberals, who often pay little in the way of taxes, and low wage service and migrant workers who also pay little in the way of taxes. Any poor sucker who works hard for a living is taxed to mediocrity. Result, five years ago, SB used to have three Fortune 500 companies with HQ and significant presence there, now, ZERO, reason for all of them, high cost of living.
True throughout all of CA, Nissan is moving their NA HQ out of LA at a cost of nearly $150M, and it isn’t ever going to come back, number one reason, CA has become a bad place to do business because of an out of control state legislature, and an absurd cost of living index.
More multifamily housing is on the way, whether by construction or by creative co-occupancy (in other words, several recent immigrant families sharing the cost of occupying a $1m McMansion along side of well-heeled single-family-occupant neighbors…)
LOL!
“I left Santa Barbara because as a community, there is no middle class, only limo liberals, who often pay little in the way of taxes, and low wage service and migrant workers who also pay little in the way of taxes.”
Once again, we can all thank Prop. 13 for shifting the property tax burden off the backs of the wealthy and on to the backs of the middle class newcomers who work for a living. What did you say? There are no middle class newcomers? Oh…
Amen. The unfairness is unbelievable. We sold our house in San Jose in 2004. Our annual taxes were around $3,900 (kept down by Prop 13). The young couple (with twins) that bought our house are now stuck with an $8,000 annual tax bill.
Your property taxes are none of my business, but I agree. This sounds patently unfair. It is crazy that a guy who bought a house 30 years ago that’s now worth a mill pays a fraction of the property taxes a young couple pays for a much smaller house.
Lou,
It’s also patently unfair for a long-time resident to be forced out of his/her home as a result of an accelerating tax burden. The young couple with the higher tax burden should know what they’re getting into before they pull the trigger.
Prop 13 is worth defending.
“Prop 13 is worth defending” only if you or your close kin be that long-time resident…
The residential end of Prop 13 is worth defending. As a matter of fact Warren Buffett as advisor to Arnold proposed a split roll for residential and commercial property before he was shouted down by heirs to the Jarvis political and apartment business machine.
Much of the windfall of Prop 13 has accrued to commercial property owned by an LLC.
The deed hasn’t changed hands since 1978 so the property tax basis is still 1978 + marginal annual increases of 1.2% or so.
However, they trade and sell shares in the LLC so the benefits of owning the asset while keep the property tax basis frozen.
This is the huge windfall. Residential Prop 13 is peanuts compared to commercial but it provided the necessary political capital through the image of not tossing grandma out of her home and got passed.
Peanuts for the John Q Public and filet mignon for the commercial property owners.
Passed in 1978, Prop 13 rolled back taxes to 1975 levels.
Unlike residential homebuyers, commercial property buyers never see the their basis ratchet up to market value under prop 13- They keep they property under a shell corp and sell the corp to the new owner and the tax basis stays the same, i.e., 1975 basis +2%/yr– peanuts.
Residential homeowners are stuck paying a much larger and growing share of property tax in CA because of this corporate loophole.
The reason the screwelsl are a mess is because the CTA and NEA only care about benefits to the teachers and not about the students not Prop 13. In the Lucia Mar District, the increase in income from builder fees and increases in valuation due to higher sales prices approaches 20% per year. Don’t cry to me about under funding because that is a lie and myth perpetuated and sold to the Sheeple by the same aforementioned screwel teachers and bureaucrats.
Bottomfisherman:
You said my point much more elogquent.
Distract the masses with residential arguments letting the commercial property basis ride the loophole!
Gosh I’m so glad we don’t have something like a universal sales tax to simplify everything.
That prop 13 is a complete mess. Schools are a national disgrace and the tax burden falls increasingly disproportionately on the younger buyers. And I thought CA was a place that valued fairness? The older homeowners won’t move because they can’t afford the tax hike and they don’t care about taxes because they know they aren’t paying. No wonder CA is so deeply in debt. A total mess…
CA values fairness like Orwellian pigs: “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others…”
At over $10,000 per child for public schools….it isnt for lack of trying. You could stick every student into private schools for that amount, and get far higher returns.
>>>>That prop 13 is a complete mess. Schools are a national disgrace and the tax burden falls increasingly disproportionately on the younger buyers. And I thought CA was a place that valued fairness? The older homeowners won’t move because they can’t afford the tax hike and they don’t care about taxes because they know they aren’t paying. No wonder CA is so deeply in debt. A total mess…
Give me a break…that “young couple” knows what they are getting into. About 4 years ago, we were “that young couple”. What prop 13 gave us was a little peace (piece?) of mind that prop. taxes wouldn’t skyrocket on us, throwing our budgeting all out of kilter. And that’s what the “young couple” is getting, too.
You bought 4 years ago so you’re paying about 5X what many are paying, perhaps more. The taxpayers should re-vote on prop13. I’ll bet it would lower your taxes by a fortune, provided the state doesn’t use it as an opportunity to fund a million new progressive programs…
People living up in the Berkeley Hills with bay windows are paying less taxes than you, brother! Stand up for your rights!
>use it as an opportunity to fund a million new
>progressive programs
No, that would never happen…that’s why we have such great schools, because of the Lottery and all of the money that THAT brought in. Oh, wait.
I don’t mind an old couple that has lived in their house for 30 years paying less taxes than me…as long as I can budget my future. Hey, if I don’t like what taxes I’d be paying, I’m not forced to buy here.
“Hey, if I don’t like what taxes I’d be paying, I’m not forced to buy here.”
This is the conclusion that has recently driven the decisions of many highly skilled workers to find residence and employment outside of CA.
If the population in California was cut it half it would be a way better plact to live. But alas, if it happend, house prices would be so low everyone would move back!
“Still, Bakersfield is fortunate, said real estate agent Jon Busby. ‘It’s not going to plummet like maybe other areas may,’ said Busby.”
Add this to the growing list of “expert” quotes. I love how areas (other than their own) might plummet. Appearently, Mr. Busby has a different definition of “plummet” than our friend Mr. Webster.
I am not familiar with Bakersfield, CA, but I am willing to bet $277K for the median home is quite overvalued. If the home is anywhere in California, there is a pretty good chance it’s overvalued at this point.
“I am not familiar with Bakersfield, CA”
You’d be wise to keep it that way.
Amen to that! Everything between Fresno and Bakersfield just plain SUCKS!!! Oh wait, maybe I should’ve said Stocton to Bakersfield.
How about Redding to Bakersfield?
I shouldn’t be so mean. Sacramento and nearby foothills are actually not bad if it weren’t for the god-awful heat in the summer.
Notorious DAP
I added a new section to the FORUMS last night that deals specifically with quotes. I want to keep a record of all these quotes in ONE place for people to see and comment on.
I want to hold people accountable for all their “RE never goes down”, “it will be a soft landing”, and especially the “it might happen other places, but NOT here” quotes.
Just copy paste the quote…and the html link to the source. The link adds credibility to those that think ‘bloggers’ would just make the stuff up.
Forum link below…
SoCalMtgGuy
Another F—-D Borrower
FB FORUMS
GREAT IDEA SoCalMtgGuy!
Bakersfield = HELL without the fun!
I beg to differ. There are many accommodating ladies in Bakersfield. What’s not to like.
This Busby clown was on tv last summer on a show about the local housing bubble. He stated “Bakersfield will see 10-15 % appreciation for the forseeable future”. He should be sued for these comments. BTW - he sold carpet a few years ago, and now he an Economist and a Realtor!
Was that Busby the Clown on In Living Color? Oops! My bad…that was Homey the Clown. Sorry…I couldn’t resist.
BayQT~
Couldn’t have been Homey. Rememer, “Homey don’t play dat.”
Once this market heads south I am going to demand this station replay this show. I have several contacts locally that can and will make this happen!
He’s probably right - I think there’s a reasonable probability that it will plummet more than most other places
Bakersfield is a trailerpark haven ..in the desert.
maybe you mean “barstow” or “baker”?
“I am not familiar with Bakersfield, CA, but I am willing to bet $277K for the median home is quite overvalued. If the home is anywhere in California, there is a pretty good chance it’s overvalued at this point.”
Here’s a house in Bakersfield at almost the median price.
http://tinyurl.com/eayad
You’d be looking at homes that are 50-60 years old, 1500sf. and three bedrooms including the converted garage in a marginal neighborhood for just over a quarter of a million dollars. But remember, it’s different here.
Remember the song that goes
How many of you that sit and judge me, ever walked the streets of Bakersfield?
I think that says it all . . .
I am familiar with Bakersfield, living in Fresno which is about 2 hours away. The housing markets in both cities are hideously overvalued. I bought a 1620 sqft 3/2 brand new in NW Fresno (the growth part of town) for about 142K in 1996. Before the market started to sag last July it was probably worth 350-375k, about 40% markup and probably 3/4 of the 40% climb occurred over the span of 4 years (2002-2005). Now the house would be lucky to fetch 300-325k and it would be sitting there for probably 6 months. There is *NO* logical reason for why real estate is valuated like it is here. This is a dumpy ass town with frankly no charm whatsoever, brutal summertime heat (104-110 for weeks on end) and minimal cultural significance. The most plausible explanation I’ve heard is that folks were cashing in their dot com chips from the Bay area and Silicon Valley and moving to a “more affordable” Fresno. Not sure if I buy it. I get the ominous feeling the whole area is headed for real estate implosion. I’m beginning the process of trolling online looking for foreclosures, one of which I will buy after bending the owner over a barrel for 2/3 “fair market” value. The number of foreclosures is surprisingly high and slowly rising. It will be a good barometer of the true health of the housing market and the true value of homes in general.
They have over built Bakersfield in the last couple years and they are still going. There is flat buildable land in every direction…for miles.
Of course there are not too many new jobs.
“So even with all this “massive immigration” that supposedly will continue to boost RE prices, you have to divide the number by 4-6 just to even it out”
I doubt it. It’s actually much much worse. X Migrants are making up for the loss of contributing members of CA’s “society”. I don’t know if there’s even an equasion that can be used to make up for the losses:
10 migrants = 1 fleeing contributing person probably falls way short.
In fact, I’m of the opinion that CA loses more for ea migrant that enters so it’s the quintessential “Lose-Lose”
Those “non-contributing” migrants keep the farms running…bent over double in the fields for 10 hours a day, 6 days a week, with no overtime (legal, because they are farm workers).
I would much rather have them around than paper pushers, as they actually contribute something tangible. Just because they make $7.20/hour doesn’t make their labor worthless. They work hard, live in poverty by our standards, and are happy to do it. They also spend less than they earn. These qualities used to be seen as positive…I don’t know exactly when that changed.
I work for a farm, and I’m looking out my window at a crew busting ass in the rain right now. I have no problem with them getting medical care and getting their kids educated…what it really is is a subsidy for the farm. If they didn’t get that from the government, they wouldn’t be here cutting lettuce, and the lettuce would not get cut.
“what it really is is a subsidy for the farm - the lettuce would not get cut”
I think that is the crux of the immigration “problem” in California. I respect people who move to this country to work hard and take jobs that other people don’t want - but indirectly I am subsidising them. California state income taxes on middle class people exceed 9% and CA sales taxes are pushing 9%. I would be happier if I could keep more of my paycheck and have everybody else in the rest of the country pay more for their f@cking salads.
AmazingRuss, Actually stoop labor agriculture is about as outdated and inefficient as the horsedrawn buggy. In a real free market economy, these jobs would have been automated years ago on a national level, there are some small organic farms, one in Carpinteria, CA, that has elimiated stoop labor for all their crops, and yes, they grow lettuce, and they are able to command a premium for it because their quality is so much higher (they grow it in peat and ship it live with the root bulb, the process is highly sophisticated.
Without the indirect subsidy of illegal labor providing an exogenous and unregulated labor market which is only profitable through the negative externality of tax dollars drawn from the middle and upper class, farms wouldn’t be able to be profitable. However, since they can import exploited workers, wages are held artificially low, since they no longer have to compete in a real free market. Thus instead of having to either pay someone a market bearing wage to provide enough incentive to do undesirable work, or invest in new technologies, they are able to subsidize their bottom line with our tax money, and get the bonus of exploiting people in near slave-like conditions as you described and then pat themselves on the back and feel all warm about how “compassionate” they are for helping more of them into this country.
See, lettuce may be $1.99 at the store, but in reality, we are also paying a hidden $3 tax for that head. So I say, why are we having people pick lettuce ala 1806, rather than automate the process with 21st farming methods as is being done in other countries without easy access to millions of needy people who are easy to exploit.?!?!!?
I meant to say 21st century vs 18th century
Russ, The farm should be forced to provide the healthcare like any responsible employer, and pay a wage that actually covers the cost to the school systems that the many children of these large immigrant families bring in to “cut the lettuce”.
Doesn’t seem right that if you have a need, to expect everyone to pay for it?
The subsidy actually doesn’t end up with
the farm…it ends up at places like Wal Mart that use their leverage force the grower to sell that $2 head of lettuce to them for under a buck. Depending on what the weather and pests are up to, it may or may not be possible to produce that lettuce for that price, but since lettuce goes bad quickly, it’s not possible to hold out for a better price. Bottom line is, if the cheap labor goes away, the farms go away, and we import our food from foreign countries with no real food saftey oversight that have their stoop laborers working for $2 a day. Then we can add food dependance to our oil dependance. Wonder how long we’d be able to deal with a food embargo?
Automation an intriguing idea, but if you are growing in dirt, there is quite a bit of variability in the stuff you are cutting. Automated harvesters are fine for stuff that gets chopped up and bagged, but it dings up the product too much for the picky consumers in any other form. People don’t like to eat vegetables much anyhow, and will not buy them if they show the slightest defect. Automated vegetable harvesting (not to mention weeding and other operations that require subjective judgements) is quite a few years off.
This is all a digression from what I was trying to say, which is, it’s pretty crappy to look down on the immigrants for coming here to work. They are absolutely not making out like bandits, and the comfy positions we sit in rest largely on their backs. Almost all of us are citizens by accident of birth. Had we been born there, the more ambitious of us would be up here doing the same thing.
If you push past the basic human fear of difference and get to know them, you usually find they are very kindly, generous people.
If you’re terrified that they are taking over, well, you’re going to stay terrified the rest of your life, because they are. If you hide from them and hate from a distance, you lose. If we join them, ‘us and them’ becomes us, which is the only possible positive outcome.
Well said. What is the immigration status of these farm workers? Are the legal immigrants, or do farmers (or harvesting companies) turn a blind eye?
At the place I work, everybody is “legal” meaning they can produce a social security card. There are a lot of labor contractors that aren’t so particular…expecially since a lot of the legals are in construction now. All of them do pay taxes, which doesn’t really amount to much at what they are makeing.
Providing both healthcare and schooling are moral choices. And I try to be careful with force. Because it can also be used to enfore the “morals” of no-gay marriage and no-abortion.
A public democracy is benefited by education, and that cost can be distributed evenly through taxation… just like police or fire… at a local level. Which is why, though I’m Libertarian at heart, I support public involvement in schooling.
Healthcare is another matter.
Again, I simply dislike “FORCING” my morals on anyone.
Because they can do the same to me.
And some of their morals I find quite immoral.
feepness,
Yes, they are moral choices, and I guess the government is being moral with your tax dollars. Funny selective choice from a Libertarian (not trying to attack you personally, I am sincerely confused). So I guess we should get rid of personal health insurance, since we already cover anyone who can’t pay, why should any business pay?For that matter, why should anyone directly pay? Just leave the “moral choices” to mother Gov’t.
As for the part about immigrants being hardworking decent people, I KNOW THEY ARE, MY FAMILY IS MADE UP OF IMMIGRANTS!!!! My stepfather is Mexican and he is VEHIMENTLY against illegal immigration because it allows businesses to exploit people by driving wages artifically low and it keeps people in a bind, because they are always undercut by the next wave of new “workers” There are numerous studies to show that unchecked illegal immigration hurts recent immigrants and other minorities most. The other is simply propaganda from the Ag industry that would prefer to still use 18th century farming methods rather than 21st century methods.
My point, checkout Hollandia Produce, do research on them. Their program doesn’t even use “dirt” as you put it, they triple the harvest yield of a regular lettuce farm. They don’t pollute the ground with fertilizer runnoff, the entire system is computer controlled is massive greenhouses, no stoop labor (people hunched over in deplorable conditions for 10 hours a day). They were showcased at UCSB for some of the breakthroughs they have achieved. I used to think like you did that these technologies were science fiction, but they are real and I have seen them in action.
The only reason the larger Ag industry doesn’t move forward is because, like clothiers using child labor in sweat shops in a poor country, they can exploit a vulnerable and needy people and then brag about how they are helping to make their lives better. The difference, the poor and needy come to them.
We had that lettuce in the stores for a while, and I really liked it. I don’t know why it was dropped. When I saw it, I brought some around to show people on the farm, and when they looked into it, the capital investment was more than they could handle. Farms are pretty close to the wire anymore…they may have to actually fail before somebody else can start the greenhouse thing large scale. (I’m an IT guy, that works on a farm, not a farmer, so take all that with a grain of salt)
On the flip side, what happens to these people if we automate and they have no jobs at all? Do we just let them starve, or do we subsidize their existance completely, like we have done with the wellfare class? Or do we just let their kids grow up uneducated, and let them die off?
I’m kind of on the fence…I think there are 5 billion too many people aready, but I don’t have the heart to contemplate letting nature take its course. It’s a difficult position.
Look Russ, I’m not disputing that the migrants serve a perfectly useful function. My point was, that the net immigration number is meaningless when it comes to Califonia housing. None of these migrants or 99% of their next generation are likely to be customers for $1M+ crappy old California real estate. Those contributing (financially) that are leaving can’t be counted using the same numbering system. The state needs vegetables picked, bread baked, locks fixed… but none of that supports the economy to the tune of $500K median housing.
The real point is there’s a serious disconnect with fundamentals which is now in the early stages of getting FIXED THE HARD WAY!!
I’m may have misunderstood you…what do you mean by ‘contributing’ in your original post? The way I read it, you were saying that the migrants are a drain on the system that are driving the virtuous and hardworking white folk out of the state.
I’ve traveled extensively (nationally and internationally)… and DARN IT- it’s doggoned hard to find a nicer place than Santa Barbara.
Yes, I have read the complaints- and yes, no place is perfect. We have a large, growing population of immigrants etc. etc. BUT with the bad comes a bunch of reasons it is really nice. Yes, the middle class is leaving a Have and Have Not community- but all around it is a really cool place to live.
I’ve lived in other states and neat towns… they all have their pluses and minuses. Those that leave “Paradise” will find opportunity, more affordable housing, etc. etc. but THERE too- (wherever THERE is…) is not perfect either.
It’s just a simple fact- we all live in towns that have upsides and downsides, (unfortunately).
Best level headed comment so far…
If you can afford Santa Babara its paradise….
If you can’t, its over priced and sucks….
You could say that about Aspen, or Jackson Hole or Maui as well. Man, I’d be happy to live in any of those places . . .
But the Inland Empire is none of these places, and residents there are paying what were Aspen prices just a few years ago.
As I’ve said previously, if you live in a hellhole it should be a CHEAP hellhole.
Is Joshua Tree part of the Inland Empire? Or is that the WAY Inland Impire? Anyways, I like Joshua Tree enough to own some land there. And yes, it used to be dirt cheap (hah! for dirt!), but now…
“All have downsides”… Most probably true.
But when you have a town (or a state) that has AN OVERWHELMING NUMBER OF INSURMOUNTABLE DOWNSIDES you will experience out migration - bet on it.
Serious people tend to vote with their feet.
AZ,
I agree, and it is a FACT that many, many SB people are “voting with their feet” and leaving this great town. Seems like everyday we have a local news story about talented, great people that are leaving for better opportunities.
This always leaves a void, and sometimes those that replace them (by moving here) are talented, great, generous people that also contribute to the community.
Our population actually WENT DOWN this year (by 100 people or so)… some would say this is a good thing- less overcrowding, etc.
The hardest thing, I think- is to lose perfectly good people, friends, the middleclass… to the economic dynamics (most specifically the high cost of living).
So I agree with you, and also SC Dave (comment above). If you can make ends meet, it’s great- if someone can’t, it’s a real bummer for the community, but they are also smart to look out for their best interests and move on.
glad u left az dude take more with you.and you should worry about az now and not concerne uself with calif.
Hey wait, I’m only concerned w/ CA to the extent that it’s where the most spectacular collapse will occur. $1M+ to $250K has a lot better upside than $200K to $100K. I’m waiting with a shopping cart…
“I’ve traveled extensively (nationally and internationally)… and DARN IT- it’s doggoned hard to find a nicer place than Santa Barbara.”
Yes, but you have to make over $350K a year to live anywhere decent in SB (much like Coastal LA, where I live). When everyone making under that income bracket is forced to live in the same third world conditions as the poor migrants, that ‘aint what I would consider paradise.
I’ve said this time and again - anyone migrating to CA from another state is crazy! They fall in love with it on The OC and Baywatch and think “why am I still living in Michigan when I can live like THAT?”. Answer: you can’t unless you are rich, but for $750K you can have a 2BR shack in Compton. That is no way to live.
JJin LA,
I can’t argue with you on this either! Gee, I’m so nice today
But seriously, you are right… anyone that is coming in to these wealthier parts of California NOW vs. 10 or 20 years ago will have a culture shock of what they are going to have to earn, pay, etc. to afford housing in Coastal California. I am always an advocate of advising/encouraging young, talented individuals to try to search out “the next” great place… the towns, regions of a different state, etc. that are restoring downtowns, have great job bases, upscaling their communities in some way. I would much rather go someplace that is currently transforming themselves in to the next cool place, than to struggle in a place that if you were honest with yourself- will never “make it”.
Years ago I was fortunate/foolish enough to take a chance on SB real estate and really put my neck on the line… it was probably the luckiest thing I have done- yet at the same time, I CAUTION anyone looking to jump in now, as obviously- this blog has made it CRYSTAL CLEAR that is NOT the time to buy into a OVER-INFLATED market.
I am always an advocate of advising/encouraging young, talented individuals to try to search out “the next” great place… the towns, regions of a different state, etc. that are restoring downtowns, have great job bases, upscaling their communities in some way. I would much rather go someplace that is currently transforming themselves in to the next cool place, than to struggle in a place that if you were honest with yourself- will never “make it”.
I do believe you just described downtown Savannah, Georgia.
SB Bubble believer,
True, I loved SB while I was there, but now I live in Newport Beach, I rent, but if I stay here and my kids go to public school, the school system on average is WAY better than SB, where some schools have a less than 50% English speaking rate (numerous articles have been written about that problem in the SB News-Press, including the limo liberal who pulled her kids out of McKinley -97% hispanic, and put them in the more exclusive Hope Elementary, reason, it was a BAD school like most in SB). The only high school of good quality in the whole area is Dos Pueblos, and they are trying to dumb it down by eliminating the International Baccalaureate Program because it supposedly discriminates against those who can’t speak English - Absurd!!
OC is far from perfect, and is rife with many of the problems plaguing CA, but for young educated families, the opportunities, and quality of living is simply better in South Orange county. More jobs, better paying jobs, higher quality of housing for rent for less than SB, better schools, much more in the way of activities. I guess it all depends on what stage of life you are in.
But one only has to look at the dearth industry in the SB/Goleta area (there is some, but so far from its potential, especially with UCSB right there) to see that for young professionals, SB is not really the place to be, unless you are in RE.
OC Metro,
First off, NEWPORT BEACH is awesome! Hats off to a move that gives you better job opportunities, better schools for the kids, and a chance to feel like you didnt give up much by leaving SB. Yes the schools here suck… good thing I dont have kids!
SBBubbleBeliever, Thank you, you are a lot sunshine!! I always love pleasant friendly people
To tell you the truth, we were very sad to leave SB and many of the great people we met there, because I moved there when it was cheaper, I was at UCSB at the time and had thought I would stay there. After I graduated, and finished grad school, it was beyond my reach. My wife works as a clinical psychologist and needs to be rooted in a community, so moving would always be challenging.
Fortunately, you are right, we didn’t have to give up the things we loved by moving here to Newport. Really it was the schools and jobs issue that forced us to consider moving. Kids have a way of really adjusting your outlook.
Sounds good!
OCMetro:
Right on!
I graduated from UCSB as well. I would have never left, but couldnt find the right job there after I graduated. Funny thing is I lived in Newport Beach after I left SB.
Are you copying me??
Bubble, depends, where do you live now
That’s totally absurd (eliminating the IB, not the post :)). The whole point of the IB program is that it’s International.
In fact it would be an advantage to these students to have an IB program in their native language, because the IB program mandates second language study (at a level at least equal to a normal high school diploma). The school could compel this to be English.
Bakersfield does have a nice IHOP just off of the 99 fwy (near Buck Owens Blvd). Other than that, it is pretty much a hot, smoggy, flat, agricultural town with nothing to support housing at $300K (where it was $100K just a few yrs ago). It should drop like a rock. I have stopped at the IHOP on my traveling between ABQ and SF.
Most of the middle class people that I know (who didn’t own houses for a long time) are leaving and not looking back. This place is definitely Paradise Lost. When two working professionals with reasonbly good incomes can’t afford any piece of $hit here.
“Need to” cracks me up…..I-Hop…
suddenly i’m in the mood for pancakes
cereal, pancakes… I’m sure they serve both at IHOP.
“Still, Bakersfield is fortunate, said real estate agent Jon Busby. ‘It’s not going to plummet like maybe other areas may,’ said Busby.”
Yeah, it’s different there.
And I love the utter conviction with which he makes the statement.
“Bakersfield’s real estate market may be cooling, but it’s still ranked among the nation’s top 20 metropolitan areas for house price appreciation.”
Under what definition is Bakersfield a metropolitan area? That’s like calling a Geo Metro a “performance car”.
Soon they’ll be calling that horrid place:
“The Greater Bakersfield Metropolitan Area”
That’s funny!
So if Bakersfield values drop 10% and other bubble areas drop 20% then Bakersfield is better by 50% I think.Or only 50 % worse?Someone else do the math just finished a vertical zin tasting at the Cliffs.
Geez, I can’t let this one go. I drove through Bakersfield over President’s Day weekend. Bakersfield consists of the sum total of 31 immigrants, 34 cows, a Carrow’s restaurant, one tractor, two McDonald’s restaurants, three gas stations, about two hundred $500,000 unspectacular tract homes, and about 90 miles of freeway between there and the next sign of human life. I must be missing something. Metropolitan? WTF?
Did you notice the lovely smell ?
No, you are thinking of Coalinga…moo! Makes you never want to eat a steak again…
I actually heard somewhere that a huge number of the people buying $500K houses in Bakersfield are people priced out of LA that commute in every day.
Um….excuse me? It can take 2 hours to get from BH to Valencia on a good day. What does that equal? A minimum of 6 hours RT a day to own a half-million dollar house in BAKERSFIELD. Oh yeah, that is paradise. Seriously, how can you love CA that much that you would rather do that than move to a more reasonably priced state? I would sooner put a gun to my head….
Well, just look at the people stuck standing still in traffic, consuming gas, running their cars into the ground, getting in wrecks at rates that dwarf rates in other states… They are putting guns to their heads — Just that the bullets aren’t getting through their thick skulls…
you forgot the ihop
Easy, now–I was born and raised there (and yes, I couldn’t wait to get the hell out). My parents and family still live there. The view you get from the freeway tells you nothing; all the new developments are on the west side of the 99. Hey, they have Starbucks now. And as soon as they get a Jamba Juice, they’ll be qualified to be called “metropolitan.”
Anyway, it’s not quite as bad as everyone makes it out to be. It IS hotter than Hades in the summer, though.
Why yes, Mo Money, I did. At first I thought it was a suspiciously fecal aroma, but then I remembered reading that this is the smell that houses make when they magically generate money.
I can’t imagine spending $500K on house where I invite freinds over only to have them say “Jesus Chri*t, did a cow shit in here ?”
The smell of success sure has changed……..
I heard ORGANIC doesn’t smell as bad… so LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION does apply, even in the fields.
Mo Money: The original line from “Kentucky Fried Movie” omitted “Jesus.”
OCmetro said:
Consider that nearly all of the new California “residents” are migrants who make under 20-30K a year, per adult. At that rate, it takes about 6 working adults to afford the median priced home.
So even with all this “massive immigration” that supposedly will continue to boost RE prices, you have to divide the number by 4-6 just to even it out.
From this letter to the editor in the San Diego Country North County Times, It appears more than 4-6 live in each house!
I would not bet more than a buck on this, but, I believe California code allows 4 people to a room……4 bedroom house, 16 people…LALAW, if your out there, maybe you could shed some light on the state occupancy reg’s.
I’m a Software Engineer soon to be leaving San Diego. My supervisor mentioned that they are having trouble recruiting because of the cost of living here. Because they are in the defense industry, they can’t hire some H1-B visa worker. I’m leaving them, and apparently a lot of qualified US Citizens are refusing to move here or are also leaving. Personally, I don’t see a problem. A great way to solve your recruiting problems is to offer more money. Some of my peers have recently bought condo’s here and have their fingers crossed hoping their loans don’t go underwater. I’m not so optimistic. It’s unfortunate that Software Engineering jobs are most often found in high cost-of-living areas. Given that we can outsource this work to India, why can’t companies set up shop somewhere cheaper?
I can definitely identify with the relo problem that SD companies are having right now. I had to move here with my wife from Chicago a year and 1/2 ago because she is a pharmacist for the Navy. I worked for a fairly SD large company in their Finance and Accounting department. They had major problems recruiting suitable talent because they couldn’t draw anyone from out of state. This is a major problem for large companies in SD. They cannot attract talent at the midlevels because the cost of living is so high and SD companies are notorious for not compensating appropriately. I’ve mentioned this problem to some of the executives when they’ve asked me about the recruiting issues and when I mention the cost of living they generally give me a blank stare…or worse, I get the “…but it’s sunny San Diego…everybody wants to live…”
I’m a senior software engineer too and live in a high cost CA area too. I started a new trend that a few are following: sell your house and rent a house. Many engineers cannot afford to buy a house, and what does that tell you? Something is wrong for sure. We are one of the highest paid professions. Sonoma County is down to a 7% affordability level, so something has got to give.
Hmmm, good old California, my ex state of birth, and my home for over 20 years. I can tell you exactly why I left–both me and my husband were able to get houses that cost 50% less somewhere else and got jobs that paid 50% more than our old hometowns.
California has its good and bad points, everything there being unaffordable for the average middle class tax payer there a big low in my book.
However, if I were ever to be poor and broke, I’d rather live in areas like San Bernardino, Riverside, and any of the coastal communities than in places like the Midwest or the desert states. Why? Because of weather differences. You can live in those specific areas of California almost year round and survive without air conditioning or heat and not experience severe physical discomfort (or even death). So comfortable weather would be a biggie if I were to be poor and broke somewhere. Sometimes I think half the reason people stay in California, even though they know they are never capable of getting ahead in any way, is because the weather is so enjoyable compared to many other areas of the country.
I gotta admit, the bums downtown look comfy and well fed.
When I was on holidays in North America in early 2001, I commented to one tour guide that I was surprised by the number of vagrants in a city as wealthy as Vancouver BC. He told me quite seriously that a lot of them came to Vancouver because you could survive the winter better there.
For this reason, there are even more vagrants in San Francisco…
I live in San Diego. Weather is great, simply great. But, the pay is low, the cost of housing is crazy (my 1800 sf house topped out last year at about $780k), the commutes rotten, and every day the squeeze of scum between LA to the North, and Tijuana to the south seems to become more pronunced. LA is absolutely HORRIBLE these days….a real 3rd world country. But I have a good job now, and a professional license that is not particularly portable. Yet if I could leave California, I would in a second (and I will when I retire, even if it requires shoveling snow, or sweating in hot weather). The legislature in Sacto is getting more and more radical. With the unchecked immigration that has gone on in the last 15 years, I unfortunately think this place is a lost cause and things will only get worse for all but the super wealthy who can live in exclusive, gated areas. Everbody else is strapped. The dominos will fall soon.
Found on craigslist.org
http://MotivatedSellersList.com
Don’t know exactly what the list is, but it is saying that SD is heading straight down the toilet drain. Many FBers there.
I guess we will see the rest of CA added there too.
Whoever mentioned that they would live in Riverside or San Bernadino and do without air conditioning? It is often over 100F for about 4 months there. And don’t start about Palm Springs, or El Centro, even hotter. Once a few miles off of the coast, it can get really warm throughout all of CA, even up to Redding.
Having lived here since the early 1970’s, the one major problem in California with no end in sight, is the traffic.
I am puzzled why people would want to move here, only to be trapped inside the car for hours each day. Your whole life is scheduled around traffic patterns (don’t get on the freeway between 6am - 7pm or you’re stuck).
The California legislature allows millions of illegals to enter, and then after emergency rooms and social programs exhaust the money, wonder why there is no money left over for road infrastructure.
Having lived here a long time I am not too hopeful it will be fixed. Maybe Arnold can help, but the legislature is preventing him from making the real changes he wants, to fix the mess.
Even the Terminator cannot thwart the army of liberal Lilliputians who infest this state and dissipate its wealth by subsidizing mass inmigration of destitute aliens…
GS,
Is this your attempt at a Shakespearian-Hollywood sounding quote that we will all reflect on later ?
Wrong.
“The California legislature allows millions of illegals to enter, and then after emergency rooms and social programs exhaust the money, wonder why there is no money left over for road infrastructure.”
There are legion(s) of parasites who were born in California too, but you are correct in your assessment of where the money goes!
The California legislature? LOL!
Since when is the CA legislature responsible for border security? And if these workers were paid an honest wage, maybe they could see a doctor before their sniffles turned into pneumonia. This is the full carrying cost of illegal labor. It exploits the workers and it exploits the taxpayers, and the only people who benefit are the consumers who get to eat cheap produce, and make jingoistic comments about “the immigrant problem.”
Chris,
Actually consumers do not benefit, deplorable conditions for the worker, higher taxes for the consumer, more profits for the Ag industry. True, most people are uninformed on the issue and make shallow judgements on BOTH sides. The “immigrant problem” only exists because the Ag industry and other parasite industries that benefit from exploited labor buy off politicians on the right, and spread propaganda about psuedo-compassion, “rights”, etc on the left. Truth is, in moving to a state of equilibrium between Latin America and the United States, quality of life would rise for those comming from developing countries, while quality of life declines for those in a developed country whose resources are taxed to a greater extent. The only way the pie grows is by the growth of new technology and innovation and neither of those are stimulated when you can game the system and get an unlimited supply of cheap, exploitable labor that will undercut eachother with each new influx.
This is the full carrying cost of illegal labor. It exploits the workers and it exploits the taxpayers, and the only people who benefit are the consumers who get to eat cheap produce, and make jingoistic comments about “the immigrant problem.”
Well said. Last I looked, agriculture was still California’s number one industry, and those strawberries don’t pick themselves.
blissful, and that is the problem, California Ag is still using outdated production methods instead of 21st century technology.
While well meaning, the comment of “those ‘insert name of produce here’ aren’t going to pick themselves” is precicely the reason we are in the state we are in.
Imagine this, those rivets are going to drill themselves, those circuit boards aren’t going to solder themselves, etc. Sweatshops exist because it is cheaper and easier because of an exploitable labor base to produce clothes in those condition because like picking lettuce, it doesn’t take a great deal of skill to do it, so it is easy to find needy and vulnerable people to do that icky dirty work.
However, manufacturing cars, electronics, etc, have GREATLY reduced the number of people they need for manufacturing, why??!?! because it is MUCH more difficult to find people who are skilled to do that work and it would be far to expensive to keep it so labor intensive. Thus, new technologies are developed and advanced.
It is hilarious to think that we can have machines that can rivet millions of screws, solder, weld car frames, robots that can integrate 100,000,000 transitors on a nanometer thick wafer, but picking a head of lettuce is far beyond our technical capability!??!!?! LOL
I spent some time in Guadalajara, Mexico last year. My impression was that the Mexicans there are more courteous, cleaner, and culturally rich than the illegals we get here in Southern California. In fact I was impressed by how nice (and relatively modern) parts of the city appeared, despite the myth that Mexico is a run-down place where everyone is destitute and starving. In fact, I believe most Mexicans can live a happy life in Mexico. People living there should focus on making Mexico a better place, rather than trying to run across the border. That’s what I find irritating about the whole thing - it’s not like they are escaping a bad place. The illegals just want the easy route, rather than improving their own community.
You CA liberals who say illegal aliens are “hard working and just want a better life” just kill me. What dont you understand about “illegal”? There are 3.5 billion people on earth with a lower standard of living than Mexicans. Do they all have a right to your jobs, taxes, neighborhoods, etc. if they can just sneak across the border? This RE crash will make many subdivisions into immigrant ghettos because the HBs and banks dont care who takes these disasters off their hands.
Perhaps illegals from around the world, Latin America in particular, will reduce their mass arrivals when the US national security agencies stop interfering with the politics of the likes of Mexico, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Venezuela, and etc. and allow those nations to nationalize their own resources rather than having US banana, mineral and fast-food companies do so.
In Chile of the early 1970s, the CIA helped topple the democratically-elected president because he was giving free milk to children and subsidizing programs that helped the poor. Those policies do tend to hinder profit maximization of US corporations that loot the resources there.
In Nicaragua, the people ousted a bloody US-backed dictatorship and the ensuing Sandinista leadership engaged in programs that increased food alotments for the poor, increased literacy, provided more medicine and clinics…a development which caused the American CIA to insert terrorists called the “contras” (former soldiers of the ousted Somoza dynasty) to destroy these accomplishments.
Venezuela is now ongoing and the US is vilifying and trying to oust the Chavez government down there because of his neo-socialist example. But facts are facts. Venezuela, Chile under Allende, Nicaragua under the Sandinistas represented or represent no threat to the average American like you or me. They do represent a threat to the profit maximation of the US corporations (who scam their investors, send US jobs overseas, pollute the US, repress wages, commit black money to CIA covert ops…).
Conservatives cannot have it both ways. Either we take the refugees of US plunder or place limits on what corporate America does to the Third World.
I can imagine if Mexico elects a Hugo Chavez who redirects resources to help poor Mexicans, corporate US interests be damned, illegal immigration reduces noticeably. Then Mexico becomes the next Iraq or Iran…
Face it, right-wingers, illegal immigration IS A COVERT TOOL by the establishment to keep US labor under pressure!