Condos “Having Trouble Attracting Buyers”
The Rocky Mountain News reports from Colorado. “Developer Keith Simon tosses out terms like ‘urban,’ ‘edgy,’ and ‘high-density,’ about his fledgling $200 million mixed-use community. ‘Imagine if you took Larimer Square and built it here, in the heart of suburbia,’ Simon said, while driving to the site, where the ground was still thawing from the latest barrage of snowstorms.”
“‘Commonwealth Heights will be much more urban and much more dense than we are used to seeing in the suburbs,’ Simon said.”
“The new 20-acre Commonwealth Heights will have energy efficient homes, all sporting fiber-optic cables from Qwest. ‘We require every home in RidgeGate (and there eventually will be as many as 12,000) to be Green Built,’ said Simon. He said the Qwest deal will ‘future proof,’ the homes technologically.”
“‘One thing about New Urbanism-communities as they always talk about walkability, but often there is no place to walk to,’ said Kevin Puccio, project manager for New Town Builders. ‘The great thing about RidgeGate, is there are a lot of place to walk to,’ he said.”
“Housing consultant S. Robert August said he thinks Commonwealth Heights needs neighborhood retail, such as bakeries, dry cleaning, coffee shops, a book store and specialty retail. ‘Also, I know that there is a movie theater at Park Meadows, but I don’t think it will be too long before they sign a deal to bring a new theater to RidgeGate,’ August said.”
“Simon said that he would like that, but is thinking a new theater should have an urban twist. ‘We might consider a theater that shows more art films,’ Simon said.”
The Billings Gazette reports from Montana. “Two long-vacant commercial buildings in the heart of downtown Billings are about to be reborn as living space, adding 21 loft apartments and condominiums to the downtown housing scene.”
“Despite a few setbacks, more than 100 apartments, condos and extended-stay suites have been built, with three-fourths of them occupied, purchased or spoken for. At least another 50 are on the drawing board.”
“Architect Randy Hafer, who has been involved as a developer, investor or designer on many of the ventures, and he helped build two new condominium complexes. ‘That’s why we have to keep doing projects, because we learn something every time,’ he said.”
“Two of Hafer’s condominium developments are having trouble attracting buyers. A project on which Hafer was the architect, a little west of the heart of downtown, did well as apartments but attracted no buyers when the attempt was made to convert the units to condos.”
“Howard Sumner, a real estate agent who closely watches trends in the local housing market, said there seems to be a steady but not particularly large demand for condominiums in the downtown area. ‘I have found in the Billings housing market, it can be very dangerous to be avant-garde,’ he said.”
“There hasn’t been much activity in the condo and townhouse market in the downtown proper, he said. Sumner counted nine such sales that have closed since the start of 2005, eight pending sales and 10 still on the market as of last week. The way Sumner sees it, that means the number of condos and townhouses for sale in the downtown area represents about a two-year supply at present levels of demand.”
“Every downtown project seems to have its own headaches. In terms of construction and permitting, the Oliver has probably been his smoothest project yet, Hafer said, but he’s having trouble attracting commercial tenants to his basement, ground floor and second floor.”
“‘It’s been very curious why that hasn’t moved,’ he said. ‘I just don’t know why.’”
“Attorney Tom Towe, Hafer and the other partners in the Skyline Court project still plan to build 44 of the three-story condos, but the five completed units remain vacant after more than a year on the market. Buyers now have lease options on two of the units, but one is hung up while awaiting a City Council decision on a zone change that would allow a small, home-based business in the condo.”
“Realtor Susan Lovely, who has been marketing the units, said the location seems to be the main problem with Skyline Court. She said there are ‘a lot of seedy-looking characters wandering around there,’ and the five completed condos look out on the blank back wall of the Albertsons.”
“Sumner said the allure has not been helped by the chain-link fence surrounding the neglected lot behind the condos.”
“Hafer doesn’t share their views. He said the problem with Skyline Court has been that he and his partners haven’t been able, yet, to offer what they have advertised. ‘It’s designed to be inward-focused, but we don’t have any ‘inward’ yet,’ he said.”
“Hafer said he’s facing similar problems at SoNoMa. He built four new condominiums there and bought an adjoining apartment building that eventually will be converted to condos. But he needs to sell at least two of the new units to obtain financing to begin the conversion of the apartment building. The condos have been on the market since last summer, but none has sold.”
“Jeff Kanning, with Collaborative Design Architects, wasn’t sure why he has had difficulties with the five units he built at 18 Grand Ave. The urban-style condos feature five two-story units with 960 square feet, plus a 300-square-foot basement. He has managed to sell two of the units, but he got tired of waiting for the other three to sell and has begun renting them out. Two are occupied.”
“Hafer said some of the objections people have to living downtown are similar to those that have kept people from trying out his SoNoMa condos on the South Side. ‘Once they get there they’re going to find out there’s no big problem,’ he said. ‘But we’ve got to get them there.’”
This might be the reason they ‘just have to keep doing projects’:
‘After the Downtown Billings Framework Plan was drawn up in 1998 and new financing mechanisms were set up to encourage downtown housing construction, Hafer built the first development downtown that took advantage of the new financing.’
Check out the comments at the bottom of the BG piece:
‘It is not the Southside stigma only! Lokat the price that they want for a”condo” that size $100,0000! $200 to $400,000 for a loft Apt!!!!!!!!! Well, P.T. Barnum once said that there is a sucker born every minute. I guess there are a few here in Billings.Personally I would rather buy a home for that much.’
‘The housing market in Billings seems to be driven by knuckle heads who heard at a cock tail party how much money could be made when a city goes through gentrification. Now they are trying to make it happen in Billings but they don’t understand the basic principles.’
‘I don’t see how they can be asking the prices they’re asking for condos/apartments downtown that are right across from a very busy and noisy railroad line/yard. Billings is too small to be forking out that kind of money when you can buy a decent new development home with only a 15 minute commute to work downtown. ‘
‘I’m disappointed in the paper for always promoting the parasitic scams perpetuated by realtors, developers, and investors that stick it to the taxpayers, one way or another, to support these failing schemes. Last year, it was free advertising for the over-priced realty market. We don’t have a downtown that any urban resident would be happy to live in.’
‘Do people want to pay $325,000 to look at the back side of Albertson’s or $119,000 for the pleasure of a one-bedroom metal box on the south side? NO. Lower your prices, or go bankrupt and next time think harder about “location, location, location.”
‘With the housing market tanking, I am curious if people will (if they are able) cancel those pending sales even in Stapleton. Sure, it’s great location, but $400,000 for downtown Billings?!? Smells like speculation to me.’
There’s more.
What this thread REALLY needs is a new video from Doug in Billings.
‘$400,000 for downtown Billings?!? Smells like speculation to me.’
Wow… I’m speechless. There is only 100,000 people in Billings and it’s the biggest city in Montana. I’ve never been to Billings but I grew up in small towns and live all around them now. People don’t live in areas like this so they can live in a cramped condo downtown, they live in areas like that so they can have a lot of land and drive a big truck with a gun rack in the rear window. Those working the minimum wage jobs and can’t even afford a broken down car are the ones looking for the small apartment downtown where rent is $400 a month or less. I have no doubt there are people that would want to live in some of those places but even with lending standards as loose as they are they aren’t going to find many people that can even look like they can afford those places so they can qualify for the stated income loan.
I grew up in Billings and graduated HS there. I still have many, many friends who live there. All I can say that the median income in Billings is far below that in most other places. There really is no manufacturing, no tech, nothing that would bring in professionals except two hospitals.
It is a central location for shopping for much of Eastern and Central Montana, northern Wyoming. But really, what kind of wages do those bring in?
Most of the money being made in Montana for Billings and Bozeman (maybe in Western Montana too) has been the housing construction industry. When that tanks, I don’t know what is going to happen there.
I was wondering if anyone else was having problems connecting. It took me about 1/2 an hour tonight. Is the system acting up again, Ben?
these idiots have been hitting the bong pipe too hard
-“Architect Randy Hafer, who has been involved as a developer, investor or designer on many of the ventures, and he helped build two new condominium complexes.
***‘That’s why we have to keep doing projects, because we learn something every time,’ he said.”***
Outstanding! Don’t squirrels live in Colorado.
One would think condos would sell like hotcakes in Montana, given the high population density and lack of available land for home construction.
Yeah, I mean, what is not to like for a rich boomer looking to make a great investment for his grandkids.
Another thing that gets me is the vocabulary that’s being tossed around:
1. Urban (Which means you could be right in the heart of things, or in the thick of things you’d rather avoid.)
2. Edgy (As in, something sharp that I could cut myself on?)
3. High-density (An apt description of how sardines are packed into a can.)
4. Avant-garde (Whatever the hell that means.)
“Avant-garde (Whatever the hell that means.)”
It is a french word that literally means “front guard” or “advance guard” or “vanguard”.
But it’s second meaning is more like “progressive” as in someone or something that pushes the normally accepted boundaries.
In this case, avant-garde is perfect.
They are trying (*unsuccessfully) to push the limits of Montanan architecture and living philosophy.
as with all avant-garde works of art, (popular from around 1850-1930) to the masses it is wildly unsuccessful, even though it may be acclaimed in certain circles. It is “art for art’s sake”
most avant-garde artists of the late 19th/early 20th century died penniless and starving, only to be acclaimed well after their deaths
thus, it is fitting that these avant-garde buildings are vacant, only to be appreciated in the far distant future after the developers have starved to death!
Avante-Garde = Bleeding Edge.
Can you really call something avan-garde that has been de riguer in most metropolitan areas for decades? I would think avant-garde would be something new, not just “new-to-Billings-Montana”.
It’s like this in Colorado too. I asked a realtor at an open house (8 years ago, but still applies) in the town of Firestone why the lots were so small. She told me it was a lack of land. I went to the window and pointed East and asked her how many houses she thought were between this new subdivision and Kansas (not a bastion of population density its self). There was nothing to be seen to the East. If you were at 29000 feet in an airplane you’d still see nothing. There is a whole lot of land out here. It won’t support much in the way of life forms, but there’s lots of room.
The last time I drove through your state, that struck me also. Three story high projects sitting among cattle pastures, then a mile or two down, a subdivision crammed onto tiny lots surrounded by more cows. The RE business has been pulling a huge scam on us, IMO.
I have to say, when I got to Wyoming, it seemed like the five acre per house ratio was much more common. But this was a few years back.
Ben, I don’t know if it was intentional, but today your posts have landed us in the Bizzarro World of Condos. If I’m reading this thread correctly, developers want to create urban areas where none currently exist. Complete with edgy and hip avant-gardeness, no less.
In your earlier post realtors discussed the failing condo markets in East Coast cities, Las Vegas, and Miami. Condos are not selling in bona fide established urban locales. If buyers longing for the lure of the Big City are passing on New York, Boston, Chicago, Miami, etc…what would attract them to a mocked-up pseudo city in the Colorado or Montana ‘burbs?
Sorry, folks, not getting it…
life forms=roflow
greens= socialists posing as enviros
Eastern Colorado is the most lonely, desolate, disgusting place. Period. It makes Kansas look good.
Hey, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I used to work with a guy in Colorado who was bored stiff with mountains. He would always say, “the prairie is my ocean.” Loved it.
All Douglas County needs is more wall-to-wall housing. We can’t even fill the neighborhoods we’ve got. What is this idiot developer thinking? If he drives south about 10 minutes he’ll see brand-new communities where building has ground to a halt and foreclosures are three or more to a street. I’m appalled. And, please, who wants to live next to the Park Meadows mall? Urban & edgy? It’s a suburban shopping hell, for goodness sake. Yuck! As it is, I avoid the area all costs, and I’m sure as heck not going to buy a house in the middle of it!
“‘Commonwealth Heights will be much more urban and much more dense than we are used to seeing in the suburbs,’ Simon said.”
Wow, just I’m looking for after driving in bumper to bumper traffic ! Will it have high HOA fees, huge property taxes, noisy slob neigbors and a large insurance bill because thats what I’m really looking for !
‘We might consider a theater that shows more art films,’ Simon said.”
Oh My God how cutting edge stop it ! You are getting way too hip and edgy !
Surely Mr. Cote will pay a visit to comment on these shining examples of new urbanism.
“‘It’s been very curious why that hasn’t moved,’ he said. ‘I just don’t know why.’”
Hint: Lower the price.
The lack of land argument is hilarious.
Half of the areas where I hear this, you can look and see land as far as the eye can see. and yet there’s this “land shortage”.
everywhere I travel, we hear about the land shortage. And yet, my eye seems to see lots of land.
I’d hate to see what a land glut looks like!
these builders could convince the masses that there’s a land shortage in Siberia and the Saharan desert.
Doug’s most recent video:
http://www.topoimagery.com/billings/2006/12/november-update-video.html
C’mon, Doug, the Billings Gazette just tossed you a nice, slow curve over the heart of the plate. Hit it outta the park!
Well, Slim, I actually don’t think this article requires a response. Sure, there’s some spin, but any decent reader can see what it really says: That these are overpriced downtown condos in bad locations that aren’t selling. That was the main point of my September video, and now the local media are reporting on it. I can’t complain, can I?
I sent the guy who wrote this article an e-mail about my Housing Boom in Billings video back in October. Not sure if he ever watched it but, given the content of the article, I wouldn’t be too surprised.
It’s another drought year, but there’s still enough snow out there to keep me busy most weekends. It might be March or later until I get around to my next video. I guess you’ll just have to be patient!
“Realtor Susan Lovely, who has been marketing the units, said the location seems to be the main problem with Skyline Court. She said there are ‘a lot of seedy-looking characters wandering around there,’ and the five completed condos look out on the blank back wall of the Albertsons.”
“Sumner said the allure has not been helped by the chain-link fence surrounding the neglected lot behind the condos.”
Location, Location, Location…
Seedy characters as neighbors and a view of the back wall of the supermarket! Wow, Susan, sign me up!
” she said there, are alot of seedy-looking characters wandering around there ”
Well that is definetly the last time I am going to vacation in Billings. I guess this canuck should have wore a suit.
In addition to their price, I think I know why these SkyLine units aren’t selling. They’re hideous!
http://tinyurl.com/3cr8wu
They look amazingly like red dominos just waiting to be pushed over.
Look at Photo #6 — you can see the Billings skyline in the distance! The building is breaktaking.
I love that the skyline consists of exactly one building! It reminds me of driving for hours on pancake flat prairie in Kansas, then seeing a grain elevator pop up over the horizon, beckoning the weary traveler like a beacon of hope.
There is NO WAY those $hitbox condos are worth $ 300,000.
NEVER. NO WAY.
Those condos should be the poster children of poor location. If I wanted to live in Montana I think I could take $ 300,000 and find some nice acreage to live on with a decent home built from scratch “out in the county” .
WTF !?!?!?—–$ 300,000 for a condo in Billings, Montana ?!?!?
What are these idiots thinking ?!?!?
Agreed. Especially with the cheap furnishings and horrible exteriors. If they were selling for $120,000, maybe. But still, who wants a condo in MONTANA? Those aren’t bad for apartments or starter homes, but they are not $300,000 homes by a long shot.
Looks like crappy Section 8 ghetto housing to me. There are some public housing tracts east of Alamo Square in San Francisco that look quite a bit like those.
people move to Montana to get away from urban, edgy, dense.
Got log cabins?
In the summer of 2005 even the Unabomber cabin would have had an asking price of $200K.
“Simon said that he would like that, but is thinking a new theater should have an urban twist. ‘We might consider a theater that shows more art films,’ Simon said.”
I think this is a great idea. In fact, I have an idea for the first film they could show: Ingmar Bergman’s The Seventh Seal. However, they should remake it to more accurately reflect today’s “New Urbanism”.
The Knight should be played by a FB. Death can be the bank starting the foreclosure process. Instead of chess, the FB challenges the bank to a game of craps. However, the FB secretly replaces the dice with a loaded pair and cheats the bank at the last minute. He only buys himself a little time to warn the other FBs in Commonwealth Heights to sell now or be priced in forever. The bank finally catches up to him and he and a bunch of other FBs follow the bank dancing over Foreclosure Mountain. Credits. Curtain.
And then a remake of “Blazing Saddles”, since the concept of this development should look much like the town of ‘Rock Ridge’ …..
(fake, and in the middle of nowhere)
“Sumner said the allure has not been helped by the chain-link fence surrounding the neglected lot behind the condos.”
I don’t think I have ever seen the words “allure” and “chain-link fence” used in the same sentence before.
But Toast, chain link fencing has an EDGY kind of allure to it!
lol…hilarious.
It’s the urban charm
I just read yesterday about a huge new condo project 2.5 hours north of Portland in the Rangeley Lakes. They acknowledge it might not be an optimum time for such a project, but are nevertheless optimistic. I wish them luck with it as I believe the developers are big preservationists and probably do more good than harm - at least compared to other developers.
But the timing can’t be good.
http://outdoors.mainetoday.com/news/070128saddleback.html
“‘It’s been very curious why that hasn’t moved,’ he said. ‘I just don’t know why.’”
Well, what’s missing is, say, some beachfront cabanas, and maybe plant some palm trees. That way they can pretend they’re in Miami or San Diego. Instead of Montana…
“Realtor Susan Lovely, who has been marketing the units, said the location seems to be the main problem with Skyline Court. She said there are ‘a lot of seedy-looking characters wandering around there,’ and the five completed condos look out on the blank back wall of the Albertsons
Could that bunch of seedy-looking characters be the mayor, City Council Members and more REIC Rustlers@^* ! Ooops Hustlers ?
“‘It’s been very curious why that hasn’t moved,’ [Randy Hafer] said. ‘I just don’t know why.’”
“Jeff Kanning, with Collaborative Design Architects, wasn’t sure why he has had difficulties with the five units he built at 18 Grand Ave.
Randy: Gee, I wonder why our downtown urban condos aren’t selling.
Jeff: (scratching head) I haven’t the faintest clue. We built these things right smack dab in the middle of the seedy part of downtown Billings, you’d think they’d be beatin’ down the door to get in on one.
Randy: Yeah I know, maybe it’s the overwhelming smell of urine and the never-ending fear of being mugged.
Jeff: Naw, it couldn’t be that.
Randy: Maybe it’s cuz the view looks over the back of a grocery store.
Jeff: It couldn’t be that.
Randy: The railroad tracks across the street?
Jeff: Don’t think so.
Randy: Maybe it’s cuz we’re asking 250 to 400 thousand for ‘em
Jeff: I don’t think that’s it either….what could it be?
Dolts.
Folks,
After reading about the overbuilding and bubble market in Arkansas… (yea, that was a long time ago) I’m afraid I cannot get worked up over Billings. But I do wonder, who signed off on their business plan?
Its like we went “Florida 1926″ nationally!
Oh yea… we did… Cest la vie. This is going to make it tought to get anything built in 5 years… sigh…
Got popcorn?
Neil
How would someone even get a loan for that kind of place? What appraiser (other than a very crooked one) would assess a $400,000 valuation on it? There can’t be any comps in all of Billings that would support that price.
Sky Is Falling?
Check out the video
http://finance.yahoo.com/
What an a-hole Cavuto is. Faber is wasting his time on Fox.
What a a-hole Cavuto is. Faber is wasting his time on Fox.
That was worth repeating.
OT…but there is a rumor on the CL housing discussion boards that Argent mortgage will be closing as of Thursday…
http://forums.washingtondc.craigslist.org/?forumID=6
The homeless guy was able to get loans to buy a dozen houses in Florida. Casey Serin was able to get $2.2MM in loans. Taiwan Lee was able to get millions in loans while he was in prison.
Who can’t get a loan?
Everybody can get a loan ,even a crook .
Regarding the excess Condo Building (in strange places )
The condos were built for the speculators . Most of those building permits were taken out during the housing mania . Make no mistake that the builders knew who they were going to try to sell to .
In fact for builder speculators would be the best kind of buyers to sell to . Imagine how speculators don’t hang around long enough to sue the builder and the builders liability gets transfered to the short term speculator or will try to pawn of the POS to the end-user or next flipper .
The evidence shows that the builders and their special lenders did not screen for investment % in the complex(in spite of some CC&R’s or lender rules limiting investment purchases ).
Who do you think Donald Trump is marketing to on his new projects . Buy now and sell to the end-users .
Builders had a gravy train with the investment mania . The only problem was they thought it would last a little longer .
I was reading a report about a condo conversions in Arizona about 2 years ago . People (mostly speculators) were waiting in line to buy these cr-p condos in Arizona . They interviewed one of the buyers who said ,”I know I’m going to make money because the market is hot “.
The condo investors were all given the big hype about the rich baby -boomers coming in droves ,real estate always goes up ,and you know all the lines . The builders picked up alot of jerks from the seminars ,but the locust was looking for anything they could invest in . The builders build in these far -fetched places because the mania was hitting on a National level and the locust would travel to newly hyped areas (and it was to expensive to build in some of the more logical places for condos by that point .)
The current condo excess (in strange places) is the aftermath of a large scale speculator marketing investment scheme . Don’t kid yourself that builders were building for end-users .
Woaa !!!!!
Dudes, we may be seeing the beginning of an avalanche that will bury us all…
Wow , great post .
Was this person terminated because they were a wistle blower ?
I have always said that it was the front line brokers that sold to the secondary that were knowingly passing off fraudlent packages to the secondary . They thought a up market would cover the sins . You can either check the work of your front line agents or you can let it pass and close your eyes on purpose .
The borrowers were encouraged to commit fraud in a lot of cases as far as I have been able to tell . But lets face it , didn’t the real estate agent know they were putting a person into a home that they would have to lie to get the loan ?
I said this before , it was a team effort ,with the borrower in on it 9 times out of 10 . If the borrower was not in on it , they were lied to about the loan features in alot of cases .
The REIC should have alot of shame .
As mentioned many times in this blog, San Diego is not exempt from the condo glut, especially with all the apartment to condo conversion projects that have taken place here. However, the other day I truly wished I had my camera. There, in the “urban” and “hip” part of downtown (near Petco Park) were new “edgy” condos selling “from the low 200’s!” They are located in an iffy part of town. What made the whole picture priceless, was the poorly painted over graffitti on the “modern” and “cool” steel doors that barred the entry way to the condos and the homeless man with sign “will work for food” directly outside the sales office!!
Hey, were do I sign up to live here!?!?
As mentioned many times in this blog, San Diego is not exempt from the condo glut, especially with all the apartment to condo conversion projects that have taken place here. However, the other day I truly wished I had my camera. There, in the “urban” and “hip” part of downtown (near Petco Park) were new “edgy” condos selling “from the low 200’s!” They are located in an iffy part of town. What made the whole picture priceless, was the poorly painted over graffitti on the “modern” and “cool” steel doors that barred the entry way to the condos and the homeless man with sign “will work for food” directly outside the sales office!!
Hey, were do I sign up to live here!?!?
$^&!*!! double post!
Yea I knew of folks bragging on San Diego condos soaring in prices! Yea those were the days.