Florida Housing “Can Be A Tough Sell”
The Orlando Sentinel reports from Florida. “Today, the demand for 55-plus housing remains high, and units in the older complexes are relative bargains. It would seem to be a perfect sales environment. Except that the units aren’t selling. The older complexes were hit hard by assessments to cover repairs after Hurricane Wilma. Add that to a glut of units and age restrictions that limit the buying pool, and the units can be a tough sell.”
“The owner of a $300,000 condo would need to make at least $65,000 annually, and the owner of a $700,000 condo would need at least $150,000 in annual income. Realtors consider the older complexes bargains, because many were rebuilt after Hurricane Wilma.”
“‘The exact same condo in Delray, same size and location, in a nonrestricted community that sells for $200,000 would sell for $155,000 or $145,000 in a 55-and-over community,’ says Ron Schulman, managing broker in Boca Raton.”
“Beach-loving baby boomers are starting to take advantage of that. At the 40-year-old Coral Ridge Towers East in Fort Lauderdale, which is near the beach and Intracoastal Waterway, one-bedroom units range from $150,000 to $250,000, and two-bedrooms range from $250,000 to about $350,000, says Realtor Ed Poirier.”
“That’s much less than the average $600,000 cost of a newer two-bedroom beach condo, with some going for more than $1 million, he says.”
“But despite their affordability, older units are not selling, and a big part is ‘the cost of insurance and taxes’ after Wilma, Schulman says.”
“Sandy and Stanley Post aren’t giving up. They have had their three-bedroom Indian Spring condo in Boynton Beach up for sale since April. They’ve lowered the price to $260,000.”
“‘It’s not worth getting depressed about because it’s the real estate market today,’ says Sandy Post, who has lived in the condo six years.”
“It took Joanne and Richard Weed about nine months to find a buyer for their small retirement home in the Mainlands of Tamarac. It sold in November after they lowered the asking price from $199,000 to $185,900.”
“Despite the gloomy market, some condo boards are imposing new rules that make it harder for buyers to be approved. They want buyers to prove they can afford assessments or maintenance increases to cover emergencies.”
“‘We’ve had to because almost anybody can get a mortgage, and when people qualify, they never talk about the maintenance,’ says Joel Leshinsky, president of the Inverrary Association in Lauderhill.”
The St Petersburg Times. “The Florida housing boom was creating instant millionaires when St. Petersburg builder Jesse Battle III hit on a promising formula to feed the public’s hunger for no-pain, all-gain real estate deals.”
“Within 18 months, Battle’s company, Construction Compliance Inc., had lined up customers for more than 500 investment homes he would build, mostly for no money down in southwest Florida.”
“Around the CCI office, Battle buoyantly addressed co-workers as ‘dawg’ before hopping in his new Hummer. In the past three months, that go-go environment collapsed in a tangle of unpaid debts, unfinished homes, burned customers and furloughed employees.”
“His partner in the deal, Coast Bank of Bradenton, financed at least 482 of the CCI loans and is on the hook for upwards of $77-million customers may never repay.”
“‘Coast Bank has become the poster child for many banks having problems in Florida,’ said Miami banking expert Ken Thomas. ‘This is a national story. Everyone around the world is talking about the housing crisis in America. There hasn’t been a bank failure since June of ‘04. The question is: Is this going to be the first casualty?’”
“Michael Wood not only contracted for two houses, but tipped off 25 of his family members and friends. ‘I paid zero out of pocket. There was $30,000 to $50,000 potential to make on it,’ said Wood, who, like many investors, considers the CCI/Coast package legitimate but marred by poor execution.”
“By 2006, they were feeling flush in the Bradenton headquarters of Coast Bank, founded in 2000. In the nine months ending Sept. 30, Coast’s assets, mostly outstanding loans, grew a heady 23 percent from $550-million to $676-million. When Coast CEO Brian Peters left the company in July after two years on the job, the company showed its gratitude with a $743,000 severance payout.”
“By the spring of last year the company was showing signs of sickness from a real estate market in free fall. Battle contends he completed 70 homes last year, but buyers were reluctant to close since many might have lost money as sales slumped in North Port.”
“By the fall, CCI was buckling under the financial strain: Sales were slowing, interest payments on construction loans multiplied and subcontractors were getting stiffed.”
“St. Petersburg investor Marilyn Schwegman, who ordered a $237,000 house from CCI, got the letter around Christmas. The concrete company that laid her slab and the concrete block dealer who has built her walls wanted her to pay nearly $30,000. ‘CCI is supposed to be covering construction costs and I’m getting this certified notice from the concrete company,’ Schwegman said.”
“CCI has ceased paying subcontractors and abandoned work in North Port. The freeze affected 482 homes in Coast’s loan portfolio. Frustrated contractors retaliated by filing liens against the property owners, bypassing Battle. Scores of customers were saddled with debts to Coast of $80,000 and up. They had nothing to show for it but empty lots.”
“Most customers want their debt cleared or restructured downward. ‘Will I repay Coast Bank? If they’re telling me I owe $90,000 on a vacant piece of land with all these dirty hands involved, then no way, I’m going to walk,’ said Wood, the Zephyrhills investor.”
“For banking types, Coast is a perfect illustration of the danger of lending too heavily to one customer. Smitten with easy money from residential real estate, it piled a fifth of its loan portfolio into the CCI deal.”
“At least four law firms are gathering clients from the discontented. Their opinions converge: Coast failed in its fiduciary responsibility to ensure CCI properly spent the bank’s money.”
“‘There’s definitely a bunker mentality at the bank,’ said Sarasota attorney Alan Tannenbaum. ‘The bank is taking a no-compromise position: ‘It’s not their problem. It’s CCI that defaulted.’”
“Battle is struggling to avoid becoming a footnote. He’s broken his lease on his new office and returned to his old downtown storefront, more or less a one-man shop after laying off most employees.”
“Port Charlotte attorney Glenn Siegel represents mostly unpaid subcontractors. He’s unimpressed by Battle’s attempts to make amends. ‘If my clients have to sue,’ he said, ‘I believe there are grounds to pierce the corporate veil and hold Jesse Battle personally responsible.’”
‘How low can we go? What are the absolute rock bottom prices for existing single-family homes around Southwest Florida, and where are these lower priced properties to be found? The answer will vary from community to community.’
‘This series starts with a look at the low end of the single-family market — homes under $200,000. Mobile and manufactured homes are not included.’
‘At least three insurance companies plan to pull out of all or part of covering Florida homes rather than face new insurance laws, an order freezing rates and prohibiting policy cancellations and the general risk of covering property in the hurricane-prone state.’
‘A state grand jury report released Friday blasted the city for what developers see as a ‘pay to play’ culture in which campaign contributions are used as political capital timed to coincide with official city action on projects.’
‘Grand jurors focused on Mayor Lois Frankel’s $400,000 in contributions, which she began assembling almost two years ago. Such campaign accounts drown out the voices of small businesses and regular people, their report said.’
‘Because the developers’ donations of $5,000 and $10,000 were given before action was taken on their projects, the grand jury said it concluded ‘the obvious.’
I used to work for the city of West Palm Beach. I have no idea about any corruption, but I can tell you, they are drunk with money. Probably one of the cities in the US that was most affected by this boom, especially since we have Save our Homes down here, which removes all controls on govt spending as property values soar.
That said, with that kind of money washing around, it is amazing that everyone does not have their hand in the pot somewhere. I am sure that we only know about 1% of the bribes/payoffs that have occured during this runup. Another side sad effect of this boom, govt for sale.
Coast Bank will be taken over by the FDIC at some point.
The bank was/is being run by Florida rednecks. These guys had no idea how to run and grow a bank. They trusted their redneck buddies, like Jesse Battle, to do the right thing.
Big surprise… they didn’t do the right thing.
That quote sounds about right to me. A lot of trashy folk down here got “rich” on all the money that was sloshing around.
It will be interesting to see what they do with the punk Jesse Battle.
“Around the CCI office, Battle buoyantly addressed co-workers as ‘dawg’ before hopping in his new Hummer.
One would hope that some day soon the next time he hears the word ‘dawg’ it’s being said by some bad dude in prison. Of couse he’ll be talking about ‘dawg-ie’ style. Yo!
He sounded like a young kid to me, but the article says he’s in his fifties! Also, several paragraphs below the part about “gratitude” to the ex-CEO, the article notes that he was fired.
From Tampa,
This is a good place to post this observation. There are a lot less Hummers on the roads here than 2 years ago. I hardly ever see one anymore. Could be the gas prices and/or the types who had them are going belly up.
“CCI has ceased paying subcontractors and abandoned work in North Port. The freeze affected 482 homes in Coast’s loan portfolio. Frustrated contractors retaliated by filing liens against the property owners, bypassing Battle.”
One sad but interesting aspect of this housing fiasco is the systemic transfer of risk from large institutions to smaller investors and households through ARMS and investment deals.
It’s amazing the number of financial instruments for managing and transferring risk: options, derivatives, securitizing debt, ARMS, and others.
“One sad but interesting aspect of this housing fiasco is the systemic transfer of risk from large institutions to smaller investors and households through ARMS and investment deals.”
Hopefully, we see more of this this crap start backing up through the supply chain of easy money. We need to see more institutions and investors taking big losses. Then the flow will really dry up. As the next couple years progress and foreclosures pile up buyers will become even more apprehensive, increasing losses to investors and banks. I expect to see the trend feed on itself until prices get to the point that it makes sense to buy vs rent.
Wasn’t the Coast Bank construction loan deal just another investment scheme ,set up by a shady investment/realtor companyand builder to get speculators in on a no down construction loan ? Apparently the builder and the investment company ended up with the bulk of the money, but the investors ended up with lots with nothing to show for the construction money draws ?
While I agree that the builder defaulted ,all the other parties (including Coast Bank) didn’t have “clean hands “.
In other words , this was a way to make it look like the lots were all individual investors ,but it was really funding one builder on a huge project who wanted to avoid having any skin in the game or requirement to meet .
“One sad but interesting aspect of this housing fiasco is the systemic transfer of risk from large institutions to smaller investors and households through ARMS and investment deals. It’s amazing the number of financial instruments for managing and transferring risk: options, derivatives, securitizing debt, ARMS, and others.”
That’s why I follow Russ Winter and Fleck so closely right now — If I recall correctly, they think the sub-prime funds flow will be turned waay down this month. Seems logical that either down payments all-round or at least signed certifications at closing that no piggyback money will be involved. Enforcement offices finally waking up. Lots and lots of pressure on lenders and appraisers, all of it pointing to a more rapid decline in selling prices, IMO.
EXCUSE ME, Mr. Stanly Post, @ your Indian Springs condo, in Boynton Beach, Fl….
You paid $110,000 for that unit in 2000, and NOW, you want to sell it to some sucker for $266,000…..
And “”NO”" Mrs. Post, It’s not worth getting depressed over it, “”trying to make a 150% mark-up in 6 years”"…..
You could say, it’s better than the stock market, “IF” you could find a sucker to buy it out there in Indian Springs
I read an interesting article last year about one central Florida “adult community” that had, as one of its deed restrictions, a limit on how many days per year grandchildren could visit. Nothing to damage the sacred home values!
And some of these retirement/second home beach towers, at least on the west coast of Florida, architecturally are nothing more than the Robert Taylor Homes with a soothing name and an ocean view. I’m always stunned by how ugly they are.
I think you’re referring to the Villages. While we were still living in Florida we saw an article about the residents being angered, yet again, about the Villages’ management requiring people to list their homes for resale only through the Villages real estate brokerage.
The Villages? Only Idiots live there.
Hey Bill,
I normally like what you say, but come on now. My parents live in the Villages and they are far from idiots. My father was a big time executive making well over six figures when six figures was a big deal! An idiot isn’t that successful. He now suffers from old age and the Villages provides them with the activities and lifestyle that no other community could. The neighborhood is amazing. I just was there to help out with the tornadoes, and hands down there is no other community like it! The Villages had put tarps on roofs and was in full swing clean up the first day. I was amazed at the difference between the first day and the third day. Far cry from any other community hit by disaster! The people in the Villages know they will be taken care of by their neighbors and association. Hands down, the Villages is the Friendliest Town in America! Those people aren’t idiots. I concede it isn’t for everyone, but for thousands it is the way they choose to spend their golden years. I for one am thrilled to have my parents in such a wonderful place!
As far as the limitations of grandchildren, it is an adult community. They limit it to 30 days per calendar year. Of course, nobody pays any attention to it. They just don’t want grandkids moving in with their grandparents. With a community as large as The Villages, there is bound to be someone that would break the rule so they had to put a number on it. I must say, we’ve probably well exceeded our 30 day qouta, but nobody really is keeping track, including us. My parents neighbors are just as excited to see their grandkids as they are. Of course if the grandkids moved in, it would be a different story!
“said Wood, who, like many investors, considers the CCI/Coast package legitimate but marred by poor execution.”
A big part of the “poor execution” was done by the “investors” who did not notice that the only people “buying” these houses were fellow “investors”. There were no “owner occupants” around who were willing to buy these houses at the prices offered. With no “greater fools’ available the whole ponzi scheme collapsed.
That got me too. In spite of the thing falling apart, he still clings to the idea that ‘his’ plan was good. I wish the reporter had asked him why.
Because he would have to admit that his investment was getting “something for nothing”. He put nothing down, expected others to build the house and expected some RE agent to sell the place and he would rake in the money. All he had to do was sign over his credit rating and he would be another Trump. Instead he signed it over and got it ruined because he was not even willing to do the work to actually supervise what was going on.
You got my take on this dumbass.
He is the one responsible for not supervising the construction of the houses he contracted. I would have been very demanding about all accounting of the construction loans, vs. what amount of work was done.
He apparently sat back on his hands and waited for the builder to call him and say “hey, it’s done, come get your check$$$”. Money for nothin.
“There hasn’t been a bank failure since June of ‘04. The question is: Is [CCI] going to be the first casualty?’”
The answer is: No. Metropolitan Bank, right here in my hometown of Pittsburgh, beat you to the punch. First!
Oops. Not CCI. Coast Bank, of course.
Correct - the FL bank will be the 2nd! or 3rd! or XXX! This is only the beginning.
Very early in the process; the FDIC people are about to lose a lot of hair doing overtime. Personally, I’m shocked that coast even survived the weekend.
I see this unraveling. Sort of like what’s happening in metals due to the “Red Kite” hedge fund going under. As each mortgage broker fails, it weakens the system by throwing in more confusion. Thus, the risk must be reduced; either reduce risk by increasing the risk premium or by lowering the risk (down payments, credit checks, limit debt/income, etc.).
So sit back and relax. Make sure you…
Got popcorn?
Neil
whenever people mention land I start thinking about a farm. If I could buy 10000 acres in florida to start a farm for 100k or the amount the fed gov’t would give me in a super low interest farm loan I would become a farmer. Probably oranges maybe sheep. lol
http://www.landandfarm.com/lf/
Cheers.
Very cool site.
No Worries! As Barbara Corcoran says, things are going to pick up right after the SUPERBOWL!
“Corcoran: It’s funny what’s happening right now - there’s so much uncertainty in the market, and everybody’s been spooked by all the media coverage that’s out there that it really is a great time to buy. It’s a great opportunity right now, and I don’t think it’s going to last very long.
I think come January, everybody who doesn’t buy the house right now for the price that they could afford is going to wish they had because they are going to be paying more in January.
This “bubble babble” is baloney, and it’s scaring people away and making buyers “think about it”, and while they’re “thinking about it”, the house prices are going to go up, and I truly believe that.
Rogers: But Barbara, what’s going to make them go up in January? Why are buyers coming back in January?
Corcoran: In January, you can count on it. You can set your watch to Super Bowl Sunday.
[...]
Stein: And as to why you can set your watch to Super Bowl Sunday, I’m totally mystified. Usually, people have to have a reason for something. I’m not quite sure what Barbara’s reason is. Are interest rates going to suddenly turn down on Super Bowl Sunday?
Corcoran: Can I address that? First of all interest rates are not high, they’re low. Even though we’ve had five big hikes by the federal government, what has it done to mortgage rates? Barely nothing.
But about Super Bowl Sunday, what I mean is by Super Bowl Sunday, this whole media “bubble stuff” that’s out there is going to get old, boring - the media is going to move on to something else, and guess what? People are going to be back in the market in droves. “
“People are going to be back in the market in droves.”
Yep they will be in the trading pit yelling “Sell’ Sell, Sell”
Do you have a link for that?
http://origin.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,176238,00.html
About half way down the page. You can see her idiocy with your own eyes. The interview was from Nov 2005 and she was talking about how great 2006 would be after the Superbowl. I wonder if she’s been saying the same thing about this year’s Superbowl kicking off a great RE market for 2007.
Oh. I see. People aren’t coming to Florida because they are staying home for the Super Bowl. I’ve been coming to Florida for January-February for 10 years. This is the quietest that I have ever seen it. Traffic is noticably easier in the Bonita Beach-Naples area than it has been. Lots of vacancies in beach front areas. The thing I notice is that there used to be a mix of families and retirees. Now the only people down here are retirees.
Isn’t this quote from Barbara Corcoran about a year ago? If I recall correctly, in the original transcript she was called out for saying “we’ve had five big hikes by the federal government”, rather than the federal reserve, thus illustrating her ignorance.
Oops just checked, it is a year ago. I wonder if she still thinks this? Most experts say the spring selling season begins when the Super Bowl ends. And as you know, most are predicting things to take off again. Just look at stocks for homebuilders!
I sure she and all here REIC ilk still think this - Its in the F’n handbook. See the section on “when its a good time to buy or sell” its a very short section.
Here is the entire section:
“ALWAYS”
Was this from the Fox News Channel Saturday programming? Ben Stein is great. Wayne Rogers too. Just about everyone else who appears is unbearable.
That a$$ clown with the long hair - Tom something is a total moron. I think he is married to that Brenda Buckner.
This clearly shows the disconnect with Realtors(tm) and reality.
She’s been watching prices go up beyond all levels of affordability for so long now, she thinks it’s normal. She expects it to continue.
She has no clue about what people who actually work for a living can “afford” on their incomes using NORMAL financial instruments. Here’s a clue Barbara: The prices are way too high already. They aren’t going up. They are coming down, elsewise, nothing is going to be selling. Count on it. Moron.
Also, Barbara SOLD her real estate firm at the end of 2005! Maybe she recieves a bonus for cheerleading? Anyway, I expect sales to go through the roof tomorrow, superbowl over, record inventories, thousands of ARM’s resetting, record foreclosures,Insurance co’s bailing the state,banks ,hedge funds blowing up….Yep, nothing but upside from here…Buy now or be priced out forever.
I’m stupified! I just had a realtor today tell me that the hundreds of houses up for sale in the $1m - $2m range in neighborhoods I’ve been tracking are just so these people can see if they can get their money out. She said, “there’s no way you can tell me these wealthy people can’t afford these houses.” I actually went to the property appraisers and all of these homes were purchased for a million or more, many are vacant. She says, “it’s the middle class that are in trouble, not these wealthy people.” I can’t believe the thinking.
Gee, and when banks start failing, and people lose deposits above the FDIC insurance, won’t THAT affect the well off?
Florida Bubble Girl,
You raise an interesting point. I too think these folks will be in trouble. If people making $100k a year were buying $500k homes and are in trouble, then people making $200k were buying $1million dollar homes…… Many invested on the bigger ticket home for the bigger return. It’s crazy! The realtors have tried to pressure me into buying the million dollar home, but I know there is no possible way we could sustain a million dollar home on our income. Of course, the realtors and lenders try to make you believe you can! Those that gambled for the bigger return are truly screwed! I believe I read somewhere that only 2% of Americans make over $250k a year. What do all 2% live in Florida? There aren’t that many millionaires to buy up all those million dollar homes!
There are 242 homes in Bradenton over 1 million,
On that topic, according to this morning’s Tampa Tribune, the median household income in Tampa is $38,568.
This site will analyze things by zipcode
http://www.my-currency.com/
A very cool feature is a real estate price index that looks at a zipcode and then has the community indicate whether the average price per square foot is likely to go up or down over the next seven months and by how much.
Using the smarts of its users - rather than algorithms - to price homes and neighborhoods. So, say you are a real estate agent or just a homeowner in a particular neighborhood, you look at the homes for sale on the site and give it a price.
There is also zillow.com and cyberhomes.com
“The owner of a $300,000 condo would need to make at least $65,000 annually”
Huh?
“The owner of a $300,000 condo would need to make at least $65,000 annually, and the owner of a $700,000 condo would need at least $150,000 in annual income. Realtors consider the older complexes bargains, because many were rebuilt after Hurricane Wilma.”
Huh? That’s around 5 times annual income! When did the underwriting standards change, and why don’t we ever see lenders commenting on this?
I think it should have read that “the owner of a $300,000 condo would need to CLEAR at least $65,000 annually.” That would make more sense. I think that during the entirety of this mania people began mistaking the concept of Gross Income with that of Net Income.
“Despite the gloomy market, some condo boards are imposing new rules that make it harder for buyers to be approved. They want buyers to prove they can afford assessments or maintenance increases to cover emergencies.”
“‘We’ve had to because almost anybody can get a mortgage, and when people qualify, they never talk about the maintenance,’ says Joel Leshinsky, president of the Inverrary Association in Lauderhill.”
This is a new twist - the condo boards stepping in to stop unqualified buyers since the lenders won’t!!
Why a lender would put a retired person ,on a fixed income ,into a house/loan with a adjustable payment that will go up ,that the borrower can’t afford to begin with is wrong .
Apparently they don’t underwrite loans anymore ,they just give them .
If lenders are just going to give anybody a loan , stable market value is no longer something you can rely on . The lenders changed the game ,so a homebuyer is really margin buying in stock ,(sorta like 1929).
” Then everybody simultaneously saw the writing on the wall, and panic selling ensued. With thousands of sellers and very few buyers, prices came down with a sickening thud, twitched a bit, and then crawled down even lower.”
http://www.investopedia.com/features/crashes/crashes4.asp
Eastofwest …Very good article ….You should post this again tomorrow for people to get a good history on crashes .
“Why a lender would put a retired person ,on a fixed income ,into a house/loan with a adjustable payment that will go up ,that the borrower can’t afford to begin with is wrong.
Apparently they don’t underwrite loans anymore ,they just give them.”
Oh my, this is just too easy.
No, the lenders know exactly what they are doing. They are making the loan that gives them the biggest commission.
I hear you .
Hooray… I hope they all go broke.
The failure of Jesse Battle’s Construction Compliance Inc., a get rich quick with no down payment aimed strictly at those speculating on the red hot Florida housing market may deter further runups in housing costs. As a Florida native I have watched housing become unaffordable for my children in just the last few years. A lot of this is the law of supply and demand, of course, with huge numbers of folks moving to Florida. But a big piece of the demand side was caused by speculators, such as those buying into the CCI scheme. Just take a cruise around the TV Infomercials during late night hours and see how many of these “get rich quick in real estate” shows are running. These folks gobble up “undervalued” properties and sell them to each other, running their costs sky high. All this while legitimate first time buyer families trying to make a living in Florida are stuck in rentals because the homes they long for are no longer affordable. When the real estate market in one area tanks, these “investors” move on to greener pastures, again running prices up by their speculation. Maybe if more of them go broke speculating, we can reduce their numbers. I believe in free enterprise but not to the extent that speculators can drive up prices the way they have done in coastal Florida towns… 20,30 and 40 percent in one year in some cases.
We need to bring back debtors’ prisons to stop these gamblers from playing with other people’s money.
The alternative is to get rid of the FDIC, Fannie and Freddie. That will force the lenders to be more responsible when they have to keep the loans they underwrite.
I went to a KB ‘grand opening’ yesterday here in Riverview, FL. They had a home that someone walked away from with $50K in upgrades with 3000 sq feet for 300K. The base model for the 3500 sq ft started at 307K or $87 a sq foot. I was assured that it just couldn’t get any cheaper. I just smiled and walked away.
TampaSoldier — recommend you also check whether the construction is concrete block or sticks. I recommend buying only block, in this area.
Our friends in St. Pete who were able to quickly sell their 55+ SF condo unit last October (they get on their knees and thank the Maker every day) are now ready to move up here. Trouble is, they can’t find a reputable moving company. Their calls are not returned, and only a few no-name companies are offering non-binding estimates! I guess the national, established movers have more business moving folks out of Florida than they can handle, so they’re able to cherry pick.
Last one out please turn off the lights.
BTW, our Hilton Head-area friends have visited and are now ready to make an offer on something up here. Dammit, we should never have told everyone where we moved to, and how nice it is here.
Please put out the word- the foothill areas of the Carolinas suck, big time.
Check with United Van Lines (Suddath). My family has used them in and out of Florida since the 1950s. Not as cheap as “Mr and My Brother and a Truck That I Think He Borrowed,” but very professional, courteous and timely service. They have a big office on L.B. McLeod Road in Orlando.
Check out http://www.movingscam.com. Similar to this site with links to a few reputable movers. Long-haul moving is no joke - the laws favor the van lines like you wouldn’t beleive and there is fraud galore. Do your research!
Hmmm, as far as Battle’s Construction Compliance Inc. troubles being a deterent, it just doesn’t work like that. Unless of course he gets sent to real prison for a few years. That won’t happen. We can only hope that local, state, and Fed govt will try to clean up thier act. That could happen, actually.
Anyway, has anyone any news on St. Joe Co.? Are they down in the crapper any further? Willthey make paper again?
Roidy