“The Price Is Negotiable” In Florida
The St Petersburg Times reports from Florida. “Sales consultant Mike Morrell of David Weekley Homes was baking cookies last Saturday in the kitchen of a three-bedroom, 3,200-square-foot, $410,000 model home that was on display at the new Southern Hills Plantation, south of downtown on U.S. 41. The cookie count in the early afternoon was up to eight dozen. ‘If you feed them,’ Morrell said, ‘they will come.’”
“In late ‘05, when the Southern Hills sales center opened, the least expensive homes had a bare-bones tag of about $325,000, and that didn’t include the lots, which started at about $80,000. Now some of the smaller ‘cottage’ homes can be had for as low as $248,900, with the lots priced at $66,900.”
“One home built by Windjammer, with four bedrooms, a three-car garage, 4,032 square feet and a two-story pool cage the size of a small concert hall, was priced at $1.3-million but is on special right now for $990,000.” “‘If you’ve got a spare million bucks,’ Southern Hills sales manager Steve Erick said, ‘we’ll even give you change.’”
“In June 2004, on one Saturday, the company sold 302 lots for more than $38-million. A year later, again on a single Saturday, the site sales were similarly stunning: 236 lots for $40-million. The buyers were empty nesters and people from Tampa or states up north looking for second homes.The development, which ultimately could have as many as 999 homes.”
“Only 12 homes have people living in them. Erick is in one of them. He said all of the people who live in Southern Hills got together for a party for Christmas and fit into one family room.”
“After laying off most employees of Construction Compliance Inc. in January, Jesse Battle III is selling his downtown St. Petersburg headquarters. Battle’s cell phone has been disconnected, and colleagues say he contemplates a move to North Carolina.”
“But legal troubles will be hard for the businessman to shake off. As customers flood Tallahassee with written complaints larded with ‘defraud’ and ’scam,’ the state has opened an investigation into some of the 482 deals that collapsed when Battle stopped building last year.”
“‘If I were him I would move somewhere, too. But if he thinks all this stuff won’t follow him, he’s wrong,’ said Bob Shapiro, a Venice cabinet contractor who lost nearly $500,000 when Battle stopped paying bills around October.”
“One person hot on Battle’s tail, and that of Coast Bank, is Port Charlotte attorney Tom Carrero. He’s one of at least five attorneys retained by burned CCI customers. Carrero sent CCI a letter for each of his nearly 45 clients. ‘I said, ‘Hey, you’ve got seven days to complete this home.’ They haven’t responded,’ Carrero said. ‘It looks like they’ll only do something when they get sued.’”
“For people like Shapiro, it hardly matters whether Battle intended to harm his customers or simply failed to negotiate last year’s real estate downturn. In Shapiro’s opinion, Battle realized that houses he completed wouldn’t turn a profit. So he simply stopped work.”
“‘Is mismanagement criminal?’ Shapiro said. ‘Yes, I think it is. At least in this case.’”
The Herald Tribune. “Coast Bank of Florida passed on the chance to unload a property for less than a third of what the bank loaned on it. So the bank’s foreclosure against developer Michael Tringali will continue.”
“The highest auction bid was $1.6 million, which means Coast would take a $3.34 million loss if it agreed to the sale. ‘We’re not going to accept that,’ Coast spokesman Tramm Hudson said. ‘We’re not willing to do that.’”
“Bradenton-based Coast is in no position to take that kind of hit The company already faces problems stemming from $110 million in loans to nearly 500 home buyers, many of them speculators, who were doing business with Construction Compliance Inc., a St. Petersburg company that has stopped all work.”
“Tringali stopped paying the Coast loan, so the bank is suing to take the property. ‘We see no likely opportunity to get repaid, so we are taking the collateral so that we can either hold on to it or sell it ourselves,’ Hudson said.”
“If the bank can’t sell the land for the full amount of the loan, it would likely sue Tringali to recover the rest of what it is owed.”
“Hudson wanted to emphasize that Coast did not arrange the auction. ‘The bank did not order this auction,’ said Hudson, who attended. ‘The customer of his own volition decided to try and sell properties in this manner.’”
“Tringali offered a number of homes and lots in Sarasota and Manatee counties for sale at the auction, but few bids came in at more than half of the property’s value during the boom.”
The Wall Street Journal. “Aleem Hussain formed his real-estate company in 2004, calling it Main Street USA, after a nearby Disney World attraction. He bought a complex of 27 aging, two-story apartment houses in Orlando and set out to convert them into condos.”
“But not much has gone as planned for Mr. Hussain, nor has it for his hundreds of investors, who include a bunch of local sheriff’s deputies. Today, Mr. Hussain’s company is being liquidated by a federal bankruptcy court, and he is residing in the Seminole County jail, charged with 23 counts of federal mail and wire fraud.”
“Mr. Hussain’s rise and fall illustrates one of the hazards of a frothy property market: inexperienced developers get in over their heads and drag unsophisticated investors down with them.”
“‘Schoolteachers, cops, doctors, priests, everyone thought they were Donald Trump,’ says Lewis Freeman, the court-appointed trustee administering Main Street’s bankruptcy proceeding. Mr. Hussain’s company, he contends, was a ‘microcosm of the total market. You had a lot of unqualified people getting easy money and able to go into businesses in which they didn’t know what they were doing.’”
“Bryan Margeson, a sheriff’s department employee introduced Mr. Hussain at investment seminars and talked about how he thought Orlando’s boom would continue for years. Mr. Margeson, who says he lost $100,000, says Mr. Hussain ‘used me for some credibility, which I didn’t realize they lacked.’”
“Investors and others have filed $19 million of claims in bankruptcy court. The company’s remaining assets are being liquidated by the court. It is unlikely that investors will recoup much of their money, according to several people involved in the case.”
“Mr. Margeson refers to the affair as his ‘$100,000 lesson.’ He notes that he ‘never saw people strong-armed to invest. The sad part is people lined up to invest their money. It was the whole furor of the real-estate market.’”
From TC Palm. “The 29.2-acre site has been cleared and a central road put down. The 82 lots have been pre-approved for homes. But the manager of the project is ready to walk away if the price is right because of the ongoing housing slump.”
“Dan Garcia, manager and co-owner of the Segovia Lakes development, cited market difficulties on Friday for putting the multi-family property on the market for $8.5 million.”
“Garcia said he and his partners decided to sell the subdivision instead of moving forward with construction even after obtaining costly land entitlements and development permits from Indian River County. ‘There’s a lot of inventory that needs to be absorbed in Vero Beach,’ Garcia said. ‘If we find an appropriate buyer, we’ll sell it, the price is negotiable.’”
“Although Garcia said the price was negotiable, it may take some time before a builder will purchase the property, said custom home builder Richard Hope in Vero Beach.”
“‘It’s hard for me to say whether it’s a fair price or not,’ said Hope, immediate past president of the Treasure Coast Home Builders Association. ‘There’s a lot of carrying costs associated with a property like that if someone buys it as an investment to sit on it for a while.’”
‘More than 2,000 students have left Palm Beach County schools since last October and 1,800 more are projected to leave by next October, according to statistics the school district released Monday.’
‘There are 150 or 200 families leaving Palm Beach County a week,’ said school district spokesman Nat Harrington. ‘This is sort of startling information in terms of the pace and the ongoing rate of decline.’
Sales consultant Mike Morrell is baking cookies: “If you feed them, they will come”. This guy should hire a couple of hookers as well. That way buyers will come twice.
Good one.
Ben,
If you have more information about school flight, that would be a great weekend topic. Which areas are shrinking? I cannot imagine California is holding up either.
Although 150 to 200/week is amazing…
Got popcorn?
Neil
LATimes ran that story last week. English speaking kids are declining but most places backfill with ESL burdens.
Robert, yea, and not the high income Asian variety ESL that graduates from the program in about a year or two, if needed at all.
Los Angeles es el ciudad de Mexico Norte,
Viva Reconquista!
Vivá Aztlán!
It’s good to know that at least a few folks here in the USA know what Aztlan is, and what they mean by having LA RAZA reconquer the American SouthWest.
What is amazing though, considering the “sacred nature” of the land and the need to re-settle here is that the southern borders are not filled with tent cities to live on the land. NOooooooooo. They all head to LA and want a Big Mac, airconditioning and automobiles.
But………I thought it was about resettling the “sacred” lands. Bullshit! It’s all about the stuff !!
Most of the Mestizos coming to el Norte descended from the Aztecs and Mayans of Central America and Southern Mexico. Their ancestors never lived in the Southwestern USA. However, at least it’s happening to California first. I can’t think of another state that deserves it more. LA will become the new Mexico City. San Diego can become the new Tijuana. I can’t wait for MS-13 and other thugs to overrun the Bay Area. Let’s see how much those homes will be worth when they start kidnapping people for ranson. It’s all being done in the name of diversity.
There is a difference between here and Mexico…we can own guns….or can we?
In California you can own “most” guns, but you can not have a hand gun in your vehicle or carry on your person. Limits your self defense capabilities.
Neil, about school flight, look at this link.
The article is from the St Pete Time, 8/26/2006. The title is “Where are all the Students?”
One quote “Enrollment is down by thousands of students in Miami-Dade, Duval and Broward counties. Climbing enrollments that distinguished other districts, like Orange, Manatee and Palm Beach, have slowed. Fast- growing Hillsborough, which expected about 5,000 new students this year, now anticipates only 2,500.
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/sptimes/access/1109872311.html?dids=1109872311:1109872311&FMT=FT&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Aug+26%2C+2006&author=MELANIE+AVE&pub=St.+Petersburg+Times&edition=&startpage=1.A&desc=Where+are+all+the+students%3F
One word:
Scary (for Florida’s economy)
As to LA… its sick what fraction of the city doesn’t speak English. Note: I’m not limiting my criticism to Spanish speakers either.
There is no problem with hard working people emigrating to the US. Its always been the US model. But eventually, we all need to speak the same language (is it going to be Mandrin?).
Got popcorn?
Neil
Dateline: Central California
Read in the excellent giveaway newspaper, The Valley Voice, that the extent of Dollar losses, due to the freeze last month, was approximently $2 Billion…
And they are still building houses all over Visalia, as per the start of an updated Monty Python dirge…
Feel free to add on, lyric-wise
I’m a nail gunner and i’m okay, I sleep all night and I work all day
I build houses nobody especially wants, even equity locusts from el lay”
I’m a Reator and I’m OK, I drink all night and I lie all day
Ask me about the market, and I’ll tell you it’s OK
I’ll even get you financed, just fake your weekly pay
And when your house gets repo’d you can live in my driveway
…and now for something completely differant…my brain ‘urts!!
Flower Mound is for poofter’s!!
Have we really sunk to the Monty Python level???
According to the SPT article, Southern Hills Plantation is in Hernando County. Isn’t that the county with the biggest sinkhole problem? I understand homeowner policies exclude sinkhole damage, as part of their “earth movement” exclusion. Good luck selling those homes!
‘In June 2004, on one Saturday, the company sold 302 lots for more than $38-million. A year later, again on a single Saturday, the site sales were similarly stunning: 236 lots for $40-million. The buyers were empty nesters and people from Tampa or states up north looking for second homes.’
This is where the MSM is understating how widespread the problem will be, IMO. In this one development alone, over 500 lots with questionable value were bought by the public.
Bill, I live in Ocala/Marion County next to Hernando and we just had a sinkhole appear under a movie theater, right on Silver Springs Blvd, in the main business district. They happen, but not that frequently. I can’t remember the last one. That won’t stop the insurance companies using sinkholes as a hammer.
My understanding is that some newer policies do exclude sinkholes. I checked mine and I’m covered.
I am more comcerned about the Hurricaine Deductable going from 2% of Appraised Value to 4 or 6%, depending. At 6% your 300,000 cottage has an $18,000 hurricaine deductable. Thats great if it gets completely destroyed. Usually, the damage is to the roof (shingles, not structure) and doesn’t meet the deductable.
The insurance companies think they have us running scared because the general mood is “just be glad you can get insurance”.
We had two bad hurricaine years in twenty, save two or three bad ones and nothing this past season. Gee, didn’t hear a peep from them. This too will pass. I’ve been in Florida since 1980 and this isn’t the first insurance dog and pony show.
At what point does Mike Tringali eat a shotgun? Anyone up for a dead pool?
This was the first time I heard Hussani is in jail. Can Tringali be far behind? Also, how many shady deals is Coast involved in?
BTW, the WSJ article has a lot of great detail into how this played out.
I don’t believe this is the same Hussani. Last time I heard Neil Hussani was in the Middle East sweating bullets.
I don’t think this is the same Hussani. Neil Hussani, last I heard, was in a hotel in the Middke East sweating bullets.
Ben, didn’t you hear? Coast wasn’t shady they just “didn’t put 2 and 2 together”. Thats a direct quote.
I guess they aren’t good with single digit numbers. They have to be 6 digits and up.
He must have pocketed a shtload of money. I wonder why he hasnt left the country. He has to hear the train coming.
But this is the good news from Florida…at least this guy is awaiting trial in jail, not cavorting on some beach overseas. At least, not yet.
“Today, Mr. Hussain’s company is being liquidated by a federal bankruptcy court, and he is residing in the Seminole County jail, charged with 23 counts of federal mail and wire fraud.”
Smart move on Mr. Hussain’s part,
Rule number one, if your going to run a scam, Don’t include the Cops.
Rule number 2 on this is if you did piss off the cops and are now in jail, don’t eat any food with mayo on it.
Where he’s from the cops would be probably be in on the scam and if not and you scammed them you’d be under Flower Mound
So rule number 3 is: if your going to live here a) speak the language and b) learn the rules.
Rule number 4 would be: leave town for parts unknown before it blows up. Timing is everything. Can you say “Country with no extradition treaty with the US?…..that was good….now in English…..
As far as eating the Mayo, my advice would be don’t eat or drink anything and don’t fall asleep for the next 30 years.
And don’t expect to keep your teeth! -
This is OT, but has anyone noticed the WSJ is just day after day of bad housing news for the past few weeks?
I typically do not have time to read them during the week, so I store them up and read a few at one time. Going from one to another it is just shocking how much negative news there is in this paper about the housing market. Not that it is not well deserved, it certainly is. I just wonder if those outside of our HBB univerise are having the same reaction? “Man, housing is really in trouble” is what I get reading this paper.
Sorry for the OT, I was going to post it in the bit bucket, but I saw some other converstion about the WSJ in this thread first.
Ooops Steve !…TODAY I think I’ll buy a really beautiful distressed RE Agent/Owner(aka GentriFRIED Farm Flipper) hillside hobbyfarm in “Northern Hills” for a hell of a lot less. 26 acres in harwood timber and 16 in really fertile land …tractor toy and batteries … NOT included.
I may get some Snow but the Taxes, Traffic and Hurricane DUES are a LOT less. If you get HUNGRY…Call me for a PUMPKIN this Fall.
Hugs !
Michael — I see the same thing. Not too surprised, though, as it’s past the Christmas retail advertising season, the Super Bowl is over — no longer any need to keep a lid on it. I think the subprime implosions may be the key to the flood of news, rather than any MSM deep thinking about monthly sales and inventory numbers.
“One home built by Windjammer, with four bedrooms, a three-car garage, 4,032 square feet and a two-story pool cage the size of a small concert hall, was priced at $1.3-million but is on special right now for $990,000.” “‘If you’ve got a spare million bucks,’ Southern Hills sales manager Steve Erick said, ‘we’ll even give you change.’”
Checking..Checking..Checking..Nope …Don’t have a extra SPARE $ 1 million TODAY to through away for your TOKEN CHANGE Deal.
Please remember me though…and check IN …AFTER the CRASH !
The development, which ultimately could have as many as 999 homes.”
“Only 12 homes have people living in them. Erick is in one of them.
12 down 988 to go. They should be calling you shortly.
Mikey, he talking “real estate” dollars. On the currency exchange these are trading just below Monopoly Money and I.O.U.’s from Mr. Hussain.
“‘It’s hard for me to say whether it’s a fair price or not,’ said Hope, immediate past president of the Treasure Coast Home Builders Association.
‘Immediate Past President’ - will likely be a common term.
I noticed that Michael Tringali just BOUGHT another property in Manatee County last week.
It’s like the guy is made of Teflon.
“is on special right now for $990,000.” “‘If you’ve got a spare million bucks,’ Southern Hills sales manager Steve Erick said, ‘we’ll even give you change.’”
What planet is this scumbag from? Why did his spaceship land in my state? This entire post is 24k gold. Thank you Ben.
“Hudson wanted to emphasize that Coast did not arrange the auction. ‘The bank did not order this auction,’ said Hudson, who attended. ‘The customer of his own volition decided to try and sell properties in this manner.’”
Value buyers need to qualify/choose sellers carefully before investing time and resources on deadend deals. Some sellers might be willing but unable to lower the price because the guy behind the auction curtain is the decider.
What is Hudson’s hope here?
That the bank will be able to get someone else to take over the loan for the full value?
If they proceed with the foreclosure, the property is headed to the courthouse steps. How is that different than the auction that just occured? Is there are secret pool of high-paying cash bidders that only appear at courthouse auctions? LOL
Hudson prefers to have a fake value on the books so he can tell the FDIC Coast is still solvent than to accept a realistic market value for the property and admit Coast is really insolvent. Last time around, GAAP was thrown out the window and replaced with government agency accounting rules to prevent/hide insolvencies.
MFL: Hudson prefers to have a fake value on the books so he can tell the FDIC Coast is still solvent than to accept a realistic market value for the property and admit Coast is really insolvent. Last time around, GAAP was thrown out the window and replaced with government agency accounting rules to prevent/hide insolvencies.
It also depends on how the auction was marketed. If the seller arranged to have only his ten best friends (with whom he had kickback deals) know about it via text messages, bids are going to be low. This would be the reverse of having shills bid up the price.
“Tringali offered a number of homes and lots in Sarasota and Manatee counties for sale at the auction, but few bids came in at more than half of the property’s (value?)…. during the boom.”
The auction bid was the “value”. You mean they didn’t get half the outstanding debt repayment.
It will not be long before toasty Coast is put on the auction block or merged with a stronger institution.
“People are much more cautious and taking their time now,” he said. “They really want to see what they’re buying.”
This is my favorite line of this thread of articles. I just can’t believe people would actually want to see what they are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on. That is just far too demanding.
Add to this, I cannot believe how little research people were doing on their home purchases.
Well… its not like many areas aren’t approaching or at one year’s inventory. Its not like there is any time pressure. Besides, we need to wait for the October REO’s to hit. (October was the first really significant month…) Ok, we need to wait for the REO’s that resulted from the October foreclosures.
Got popcorn?
Neil
Neil-
The developers were posting website increases almost daily during the boom. Had to keep the feeding frenzy going while espousing the so called extreme runup in costs. BS
The asshats simply believed what they read. The internet had more sales than any other source to people who have not yet seen their purchases.
Do not underestimate the role technology played in this whole scenario.
“The highest auction bid was $1.6 million, which means Coast would take a $3.34 million loss if it agreed to the sale. ‘We’re not going to accept that,’ Coast spokesman Tramm Hudson said. ‘We’re not willing to do that.’”
Homedebtors aren’t the only ones in DENIAL.
Looks like we are quick to adopt the Japanese solution when push comes to shove. Anyone remember the severe criticism the US gave Japan for following a “head in the sand” policy?
‘We’re not going to accept that,’ Coast spokesman Tramm Hudson said. ‘We’re not willing to do that.’
You can do it now, or you can do it later, when it’s an REO, along with a bazillion others on your banking books.
Revised: “Tramm Hudson later went on to say “We’re not just going to give it away.”"
Want to bet they immediately ran down to the courthouse and filed a property tax appeal based on the new value? Hypocrites.
That begs the question of how many other people will put their house up for auction at a price that is gamed not to sell but to get the property tax appraisal lowered.
RC: Homedebtors aren’t the only ones in DENIAL.
The auction was arranged by the owner, not the bank. We don’t know that it was on the up and up. What if the owner marketed it only to those of his acquaintances who would give him a $100K kickback?
This short sale auction was advertised nationally and carefully scrutinized by we trainwreck observers and the bank who had veto power on the sale. The person quoted was a bank rep not the land owner.
Having skimmed the article, I have concluded that this may be a case of fraud:
Coast’s loan to Tringali is a different story — one that has raised questions about land values, appraisals and the bank’s lending practices.
Tringali’s partner, Neil Mohammad Husani, bought the tract for $3.04 million in August 2005. Tringali bought it a week later for $7.6 million and got his loan from Coast based on that sale price.
What’s interesting to me is how builders/developers picked up investors at these seminars. You can just see the tent with the snake oil salesmans ,people giving their testimony on how they made a bundle in real estate ,than people raising their hands in a feverish way to indicate they want in . I contend that many home projects were built or marketed for the speculators to flip .
“You can just see the tent with the snake oil salesmans ,people giving their testimony on how they made a bundle in real estate”
This describes those Real Estate Wealth Expos (put on by The LEarning Anex) to a tee…including the snake oil salesmen. When is Donald Trump’s next appearance?
The cookie count in the early afternoon was up to eight dozen. ‘If you feed them,’ Morrell said, ‘they will come.’”
Time was, you couldn’t buy a house unless you promised to feed the squirrels. Now we’re the squirrels!
Would he have done better baking brownies instead of cookies?
I think he should have made Kool Aid.
He did, but he drank all of it.
I was saddened to learn this week that a long-time friend, who lives far away from Florida, is closing on a condo next month on Florida’s west coast. Had I known he was even interested, I’d have offered to share my knowledge of the market (essentially a link to Ben’s blog and a few others). I suppose the good news is that it will be his retirement home and, barring bad health, he’ll have no need to sell it for a long time. Hopefully, he got the best of the current pricing and isn’t using an ARM.
It’s probably the greatest pain of life to helplessly watch a friend self destruct. Take heart.
“Each one of here today will at one time in our lives look upon a loved one who is in need and ask the same question: We are willing help, but what, if anything, is needed? For it is true we can seldom help those closest to us. Either we don’t know what part of ourselves to give or, more often than not, the part we have to give is not wanted. And so it those we live with and should know who elude us. But we can still love them - we can love completely without complete understanding. ” Rev. Maclean, A River Runs Through It