February 18, 2007

Bits Bucket And Craigslist Finds For February 18, 2007

Please post off-topic ideas, links and Craigslist finds here.




RSS feed | Trackback URI

160 Comments »

Comment by jmf
2007-02-18 04:45:22

today something ot

one toughtfull piece and one funny post

http://immobilienblasen.blogspot.com/

Comment by not a gator
2007-02-18 08:13:14

Husband parking. Brilliant.

 
Comment by CA renter
2007-02-19 03:18:14

Long and interesting movie. Thanks for the link, jmf!

 
 
Comment by flatffplan
2007-02-18 04:47:09

N VA
are sales picking up in your county ?
looks like more activity here - sellers are accepting 2005 pricing w inventory building slightly
several refurbed homes are sitting as the upgrade are not fetching more money

Comment by GetStucco
2007-02-18 05:25:45

Listings are picking up (I noticed a $100m+ increase in listings over the past two weeks in the six-zip-code area I follow — 92127, 92128, 92129, 92130, 92064, 92067). I am talking here about a net increase in 30 listed homes. (My math could be off — this averages to about $3.3m+ per home…sort of a high-end inventory dump if my math turns out to be right.)

I am waiting expectantly to learn how many $1m+ homes in San Diego were flipper investments purchased through exotic financing. I am guessing the number is huge.

Comment by flatffplan
2007-02-18 05:32:35

“flip that house” had an UPDATED version that they later late slip that the guy had the house for 2 years and now is keeping it !
so HIVtv shows are all ancient w hot markets and overbid sales-
how do they sell ads on these shows ?

Comment by Quirk
2007-02-18 05:36:26

Flatplannin’, you don’t know how television works. They ain’t selling reality on these reality shows, y’know? They’re selling hyper-reality - the dream of what could be if we didn’t have these stupid things called facts.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by Mugsy
2007-02-18 07:39:00

Go North County go!

 
Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2007-02-18 16:43:25

“I am waiting expectantly to learn how many $1m+ homes in San Diego were flipper investments purchased through exotic financing. I am guessing the number is huge.”

Like moths to a flame, these people were lured by the prospect of making larger profits than they would on a $350K house.

Unless of course nobody wants to pay for their “improvements” and their mark up.

Ouch.

 
 
Comment by Novasold
2007-02-18 06:09:05

Yes I was speaking to a very honest realtor last night and she said that buying is picking up again but that foreclosure activity is a real worry.

It seems ‘we have hit bottom’ has worked here in NoVa. She said that most of the builders have sold off existing inventory.

I’m not sure what to believe really. There is still tons of inventory and I still see many condo projects sitting and sitting with not much getting done on them. She said that generally people are comfortable with spending 5-6x income on mortgage but that 90% are still 100% financing (tightening lending standards….not here.)

I would say that resets this year are the watershed moment that will determine what is the outcome.

Comment by GetStucco
2007-02-18 06:24:07

“Yes I was speaking to a very honest realtor last night… I’m not sure what to believe really.”

Don’t believe trolls.

Comment by Novasold
2007-02-18 06:26:19

Not a troll Stucco, a good friend.

I wish she was wrong and maybe she is, but she’s no troll.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by jerry from richardson
2007-02-18 06:52:55

This 2.1 million empty houses are sitting there somewhere, and it ain’t in Fargo. They’re in the surburbs of major metro areas, like NoVa.

 
Comment by We Rent!
2007-02-18 07:54:29

My aunt is very honest, too - but she still talked my bro into a 500k blunder in ‘04.

 
Comment by DAVID
2007-02-18 07:58:46

The market in Sacramento seems gets worse everyday, but realtwhore’s here think the market is getting better.

 
Comment by Novasold
2007-02-18 09:41:54

I really do hope you are all right and she is wrong. I’d like to be able to buy again someday!!

 
Comment by Paladin
2007-02-18 16:12:41

Sacramento Clownifornian Flipper Saga Doubled:

December 2005: SF Bay Area investor gets woman to put up credit record to buy a 2800 sf house for $495,000 using 80/20 sub prime 100% financing. They put $10,000 into the house getting it ready for sale. Hold “fake” auction in February: “First bid” over $589,000 takes the house on Sunday night. They are priced hilariously over the tanking market, so no bidders showed up all weekend.

They hold the property for 12 more months, chasing the market down in $10,000 increments. Fast forward to January, the property is in loan default. Realtor sells it for $450,000 on a short sale. Second holder takes big hit. Woman has ruined credit and leaving California (according to Realtor).

New buyer is Asian couple. Put $180,000 down payment, financing $270,000. Rent: $1800/month. Net proceeds after expenses: $1,000/month. Debt service carrying cost: $1667/mon. The new buyer has $8000/year negative cash flow.

Assuming Sacramento area properties continue dropping 6% in 2007, then hold even for four years, the new buyer will be $73,000 upside down by 2012. Good show.

Neil, we are gonna need a lot more popcorn for the second feature.

 
 
 
Comment by geeah
2007-02-18 06:29:09

well i don’t buy that at all… perhaps there is a pickup in sales activity, but at best it probably is a dead-cat bounce. Why do I say this? Well, first I think there are lots of people like me in the NoVA area who are in a position to buy, but still can’t. If I look back to 2003ish I could have had my pick on a good range of types of properties and neighborhoods… now? very limited choices and mostly wayyyy outside the beltway.

The effects that foreclosures are going to have is still to come. I think it hit me one weekend when i was looking through some listings and saw a couple of nice townhouses in Alexandria.. they were in the same neighborhood and just a couple doors apart. One was bank-owned… the prices were 430kish for one and the bank-owned price was 60k-70k less.. banks and builders will bring prices down throughout the year as they look to unload and undercut the ambitious sellers.

Comment by jerry from richardson
2007-02-18 07:05:08

Builders will have to keep building and selling or else they will go out of business. They are very dependent on cashflow to service their debt. They will lead the way down as they keep cutting prices. Land and raw materials are significantly cheaper now.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Chip
2007-02-18 08:32:56

Yup.

 
 
 
Comment by watcher
2007-02-18 07:03:07

NAR types are pushing the ‘housing has bottomed’ line now that the spring selling season is here. Don’t believe the hype.

Comment by geeah
2007-02-18 07:58:14

We’ll keep hearing this until the frothy realtors who only know the housing boom have moved on to their next careers… see .com bubble/stock brokers & analysts for reference.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by arlingtonva
2007-02-18 07:14:51

Number one rule of sales - You have to believe in your project. A person can be honest but wrong. There are many realtors that sincerely believe the saying ‘now is a good time to buy’. One thing i’ve noticed about realtors and RE bulls though, they don’t like numbers. They don’t like facts. They opinions are based on hope.

Now here’s something to think about. In Fairfax - one of the biggest counties in Nova, over a 5 year period the population grew by a whole 3.8% from 2000 - 2005. With highly paid government workers retiring, a less than 1% annual growth rate, and global competition with countries that have labor costs much lower than here, how can this area possibly keep the median sales price at $500,000?

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/51/51059.html

Comment by GetStucco
2007-02-18 07:18:28

“There are many realtors that sincerely believe the saying ‘now is a good time to buy’.”

The problem is that the statement has no content, if “now” means “always.”

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by arlingtonva
2007-02-18 07:19:03

belive in your product

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by TedK
2007-02-18 08:17:57

NOVAsold,

I have been following the NoVA market for a long time, and I don’t think what your realtor friends says is true. Keep in mind Realtors are optimistic people and want to give the most favorable spin on even minor blips that have no meaning in terms of underlying trend.

In the 22031 zip code in Fairfax, close to the Vienna Metro area, several townhomes are listed at $630K and languishing for more than 8 months. I talked to the selling agent, and she said the seller has more than $600K in mortgages and cannot reduce the price. But Zillow shows the values have declined to the low-to-mid 500K’s. And for nearly all sold properties I have followed, the sale price is several thousands below zillow’s estimate. So talk about sellers being upside down.

The story is the same in Oakton, another upscale area. Believe me, this bursting thing is just beginning.. it will get serious only when the sellers experience real “pain” from being upside down.

Don’t fall for sweet talk no matter however ‘honest’ they may appear.
In my case, as an atheist, all my life I have done precisely that–not falling for ‘honest’ opinion, so it is easy for me to see the reality and wait. Except that family pressure can be unpredictable.

 
Comment by NOVA
2007-02-18 09:14:17

No, that is correct. Sales are picking up a little in No.VA. We went to look at a townhouse dev. In Fairfax and they had only one model left and steady stream of lookers. Price? In the 600’s which is low for the location.

The model we looked at was not impresive — all PVC. no boxes for light switches, just screwed to the drywall, etc..
I am seeing mre lots showing up for sale in Zip.

Comment by TedK
2007-02-18 10:19:33

NOVA,

What is that twonhouse devlopment? FairOaks landing by Stanley Martin or something else?
Do you have an idea of how they are financing if that is true? Just last week I saw an older SFH (3000 sq ft) property in Chantilly–listed at $550K but not sold for several months. The owner is desperate and has reduced the price to $500K and has privately idnicated to me he would accept an offer close to $450K. The same was appraised last Summer for $640 K. So where does this ‘picking up’ come from?

On Ziprealty many homes are taken off and listed as inactive, but if you check zillow, there is no information about the properties being sold or the sale price. So they are either being rented or taken off the market. THat is my observation.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by davidcee
2007-02-18 10:33:03

“very honest realtor” What she is offering is opinions. What are the facts? Where are the hard numbers? ” My earliest teachings in recovery ‘Opinions are like a**holes - everybody has one” Let her give you some numbers, and then you can come to your own conclusions.

 
 
Comment by Arwen U.
2007-02-18 07:02:26

Prince William County, VA (Gainesville)

Prices on many homes are 25% below 2005.

Comment by not a gator
2007-02-18 08:16:33

50% below 2000 wouldn’t be sufficient inducement to live in that hellhole–pardon my French.

 
 
 
Comment by GetStucco
2007-02-18 05:05:17

There was a long bits bucket thread on Starbucks yesterday. One post that caught my eye was the following:

“I like Peet’s,” with the follow-on comment, “Me too. One opened up next door to us. And then, of course, Starbucks had to open a store right across the way. I guess they are afraid of a little competition.”

FYI, Starbucks’ founders took their inspiration from Alfred Peet. Here is an account of this fascinating history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peet’s_Coffee_&_Tea

Comment by GetStucco
2007-02-18 05:13:28

P.S. This was actually not on the bits bucket, but on a later thread. Some suggested the discussion was OT, but I think the point of the discussion was primarily that the rise of Starbucks is a direct consequence of so much home-equity ATM cash that people had available to blow on overpriced coffee for the period from 1998-2005. I suspect that Starbucks share price stays so high primarily for other reasons than fundamentals at this stage of the game.

Comment by Quirk
2007-02-18 05:37:40

Starbucks is this generation’s Rolex.

Comment by Bill in Phoenix
2007-02-18 10:17:37

I mostly grind my own coffee beans. Lately it’s from Safeway - The Millstone brand, I think it is. But I do like Starbucks, as I said yesterday. I always loved the aroma of fresh coffee. It reminds me of when my parents made coffee for themselves in the mornings. Starbucks is great for the convenience. I mostly buy the brewed coffee there, which as someone said in the other thread costs $1.50 or so. The nice thing about the brewed coffee is you do not have to wait for the barista to make it. I also don’t tip those who just get my coffee from the coffee machine unless it’s the holiday season from Thanksgiving to New Years.

I read that coffee prevents diabetes http://coffeetea.about.com/od/health/a/healthdiabetes.htm
you have to drink 6 cups a day though. I mostly drink Japanese green tea, which has a lot of anti oxidents, and two glasses of red wine in the evening. Regarding wine,
I thought red wine was this generation’s rolex. Now I’m mistaken.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by krills
2007-02-18 10:51:04

I frequent the Bad Ass Coffee company here in Ventura also on my to go surfing. Great 100% Kona brewed fresh daily here. They also have other blends available, with cute chicks at the counter.

 
Comment by P'cola Popper
2007-02-18 11:13:13

I drink instant Nescafe or Jacobs. I can’t be bothered with all that grind the beans cappucino machine nonsense. I do drink green tea throughout the day which is considered very healthy and “eliteny” in Russia.

 
Comment by AtomicRobotWoman
2007-02-18 12:18:15

Bill in Phoenix: A big you-bet! I heard that pinot noir prevents cancer & I was like: Yeah, right. But I did some research and concluded it fell into the can’t-hurt-might-help camp. Fast forward 3 years: Still alive & well despite my atrocious 14% survival stat. (sorry for the OT)

 
 
 
 
Comment by krills
2007-02-18 05:39:56

Peet’s is the best.

Comment by palmetto
2007-02-18 05:53:05

Dunkin’ Donuts coffee is my fave.

Comment by arizonadude
2007-02-18 07:18:28

I agree that dunkin is the best.They have a great brand.The problem is they are very slow to open up stores around here.They have some management problems.Starbucks has really beat them to new markets.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by Sammy Schadenfruede
2007-02-18 14:48:05

According to “Consumer Reports” review of premium coffee joints, McDonald’s actually had the best coffee for the money. Don’t blitz me with anti-McDonald’s screeds: I’m just noting what CR said.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by Novasold
2007-02-18 06:11:46

Is Peet’s West Coast? I’ve never seen one here on the East Coast.

I myself love home brewed Dunkin Donuts coffee. It’s the best!

And yes I’m easy to please :)

Comment by GetStucco
2007-02-18 06:13:51

“Is Peet’s West Coast?”

Don’t trouble yourself to click on the link I posted.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by krills
2007-02-18 06:15:28

Uh…click on the link.

 
Comment by Novasold
2007-02-18 06:15:57

Your link doesn’t tell to much Stucco…

 
Comment by GetStucco
2007-02-18 06:26:28

Sorry — not sure what happened there… try this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peet%27s_Coffee_%26_Tea

 
Comment by lunarpark
2007-02-18 09:42:58

Interesting. Thanks for the link GS.

 
 
Comment by Mike
2007-02-18 07:42:02

Is Peet’s West Coast?

They have a store in Cornoan Del Mar Plaza.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Mike
2007-02-18 07:43:21

“Cornoan” should have been “Corona” as in Corona Del Mar (Newport Beach).

 
 
Comment by not a gator
2007-02-18 08:19:18

There’s a few in the Boston area (though Boston drinks much more coffee per capita than most other regions).

I always liked the tea at Seattle’s Best, but the one near me turned into a Starbucks (ugh!). (This is several years ago when I was still living in Mass.)

Peets has the best hot cocoa, hands down.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Michael Viking
2007-02-18 14:26:36

Starbucks owns Seattle’s Best, right?

 
Comment by MaryLee
2007-02-19 16:49:44

SBC is a rival of S’bucks, not a derivative.

 
 
 
Comment by dba
2007-02-18 06:27:37

there are a few in NYC. wife says they taste like crap and we go to starbucks. here in NYC 99% of the mom and pop shops have crappy coffee and while starbucks is not the best it’s better than almost every place.

newsflash people, espresso drinks are expensive everywhere not just at starbucks. the brewed coffee is the same price or cheaper since they have larger sizes and they use twice as much coffee and better quality than almost everyone else

Comment by dba
2007-02-18 06:34:14

starbucks is european style coffee even for brewed. when i was in a mcdonald’s in germany i tried the coffee and almost choked and was wired for a whole day

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by targetdrone
2007-02-18 06:51:42

Dutch Bros. drive thru coffee is very popular with the “kids” here in Oregon. They regard Starbucks as “their parents and old peoples” coffee.

 
 
Comment by mgnyc
2007-02-18 07:58:46

dba starbucks are everywhere here and i personally think
there coffee is awful. i personally like 7-11 coffee
and i like the fact i can make it exactly to my liking
and btw the bagel store by my office in chelsea has a wonderful cup o joe for $1.50 for a 16oz
,although at least their employees
are paid a decent wage and have benefits so the company is not so bad in that respect but there coffee imo stinks
it always tastes burnt

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by dba
2007-02-18 08:35:28

dunkin donuts is OK

starbucks isn’t burnt, it’s extremely roasted. even the traditional lighter roast flavors like the south american beans. I like it and i like the fact that most times they have the stronger african and southwest asian blends. they roast their coffee and serve it strong and bitter like you’ll find in france or austria. traditional american coffee is weak.

Starbucks is the best anti-laxative drug around. cheapest too if you stick to the brewed.

 
Comment by jbunniii
2007-02-18 09:43:47

Anti-laxative? That’s very odd - it has the opposite effect on me, and gets the mail moving every time.

 
 
Comment by not a gator
2007-02-18 08:25:01

I used to work at a “mom & pop” (actually, it was “pop & kids”) in Boston and we had food service Columbian which tasted WAY better than Dunkies OR Starbucks, AND you got a proper 8oz (none of this 12oz and up) for less than you’d pay for the smallest size at either of those places.

Starbucks drip coffee is okay, but given a choice I’d by McDonald’s first. I like Columbian, the good kind where all you need to add is cream. (Dunkies tastes like burnt toast and needs mucho sugar to choke down… or a donut.)

It’s true, if you’re addicted to that Starbucks flavor (I like that style of coffee in my ice cream, so I can see someone liking it), you won’t get it at 7-11.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by We Rent!
2007-02-18 07:57:40

BUNCH OF ADDICTS!

Comment by GetStucco
2007-02-18 08:00:13

If you are going to be an addict, may as well choose a drug which enhances your brain activity, rather than killing it…

 
Comment by not a gator
2007-02-18 08:27:28

I rarely drank coffee until I became a bus driver. When you get up at 4:30 am to start a route at 5:30 am, a little liquid jolt is a necessity. :D

Comment by GetStucco
2007-02-18 12:42:58

Same way if you get up at 4:30am to blog :-)

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by Sammy Schadenfruede
2007-02-18 14:52:44

BUNCH OF ADDICTS!

I’ve seen you on this blog enough to know you’re feeding an addiction of your own, my friend. Let me guess: When Ben’s server crashed, you were in full-fledged withdrawal cravings just like…um, my neighbor. I myself am not a HBB blogaholic. Oh no, I can quit at any time.

Comment by ajh
2007-02-19 04:15:48

Oh no, I can quit at any time.

Annnnnnnnd… so say all of us. :D

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
 
Comment by MattR
2007-02-18 05:33:57

I saw this morning on Good Morning America that housing prices were ‘down 3%’ nationwide, and they talked about regional bubbles fueled by investors. MSM is in on it, so it must have already happened.

 
Comment by GetStucco
2007-02-18 05:35:25

Fallout shelters for everyone!
———————————————————————————————-
NATION’S HOUSING
KENNETH HARNEY
Prepare for fallout over lax subprime underwriting
February 18, 2007

WASHINGTON – Is a blowout taking shape in the impaired-credit mortgage market? Could lax underwriting standards during the housing boom years – no verification of applicants’ incomes or assets, low or no down payments, and big mortgages to people already saddled with heavy consumer debts – finally be coming home to roost?

The omens are unmistakable:

Delinquencies in the $1.3 trillion impaired-credit mortgage market hit 12.6 percent in the latest quarter, up from 11.7 percent. Delinquencies exceeded 13 percent among borrowers with subprime adjustable-rate loans.

Growing numbers of the companies that make or invest in subprime mortgages are themselves facing financial distress, and some have shut their doors or filed for bankruptcy protection. HSBC Holdings PLC, Europe’s largest bank and a major subprime lender in this country, shocked Wall Street recently by announcing that home-loan delinquencies have gotten so bad that it has set aside $10.6 billion to cover potential losses.

New Century Financial Corp., a subprime lender based in Irvine, saw its stock plunge 36 percent in a single day when it announced that “buybacks” of delinquent loans have been more numerous – and more costly – than anticipated. Subprime lenders are required by Wall Street bond investors to repurchase loans that go into serious default early in their terms, suggesting poor underwriting, bad appraisals or other issues.

Ownit Mortgage Solutions, another high-profile California subprime mortgage lender that was based in Agoura Hills, abruptly went out of business when buyback demands reached a reported $100 million. Ownit’s CEO, William D. Dallas, acknowledged problems in underwriting, but also blamed bond investors’ voracious demands for high-yielding no-income verification loans.

Dozens of smaller subprime originators have ceased operations or are scaling back on new lending. One of the mortgage industry’s top executives, Angelo Mozilo, CEO of Countrywide Financial, was quoted as saying “there’s probably 40 or 50 (subprime loan originators) a day throughout the country going down in one form or another. And I expect that to continue throughout the year.”

What’s going on here? At a recent Senate hearing, a leading consumer-protection advocate, Martin Eakes, CEO of the Center for Responsible Lending, called the subprime market “a quiet but devastating disaster.”

The “ultimate effects are very much like Hurricane Katrina,” he said, but “the difference is that this disaster … is occurring every single day across the country, house by house and neighborhood by neighborhood.”

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20070218/news_1h18harney.html

Comment by Quirk
2007-02-18 05:39:21

And, like Katrina, we should expect Kanye West to soon declare that “Ben Bernanke doesn’t like black people.” Unfortunately, in Florida it’s a lot of black families being crushed by subprime. They’re fleeing back to their southern roots in Alabama, Georgia, Carolinas, etc.

Comment by mgnyc
2007-02-18 08:01:29

the african american communities in nyc are overrun with
foreclosures and many people overextended who wre preyed upon by their own kind and put into bad loans
but hey nobody put a gun to their head to sign on the dotted line

Comment by housegeek
2007-02-18 08:08:08

“hey nobody put a gun to their head”
Yeah, no one committed a felony, but they likely commited fraud by the billions in NYC’s poor/middle class neighborhoods. I expect the civil claims / ag investigations of subprime lending will flush that out eventually. There is a TON of shady lending in nyc.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Mark
2007-02-18 09:24:25

Criminality is the norm, not the exception in some cultures.

 
 
Comment by Sammy Schadenfruede
2007-02-18 15:01:02

Wait until the lawyers grasp the awesome potential of class-action lawsuits by “disadvantaged minorities” against predatory mortage lenders, in venues where a “jury of their peers”, a la the OJ trial, is assured, along with exorbitant ’stick it to the Man’ punitive awards. The white subprime FBs, of course, will be left out in the cold, since they’re a bunch of ignorant hillbillies….

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Mark
2007-02-18 16:53:33

Hopefully, this group of FBs will be the vanguard for some “sudden” societal change. The Scotch-Irish have always had a real problem with authority and rebel often.

 
 
 
 
Comment by not a gator
2007-02-18 08:29:43

Ownit’s CEO, William D. Dallas, acknowledged problems in underwriting, but also blamed bond investors’ voracious demands for high-yielding no-income verification loans.

Boo hoo hoo, Wall Street made me do it.

Comment by Chip
2007-02-18 08:44:13

So, if someone wants to buy a diamond and I don’t have one on hand, I should go steal one or con some little old lady out of hers?

Comment by technovelist
2007-02-18 09:26:17

No, you should sell them a piece of glass.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by Matt_In_Tx
2007-02-18 15:33:30

Think of the money it’s going to cost them to start up their underwriting departments again. Most of any that are left were probably hidden away in the basement next to the red staplers.

 
 
Comment by GetStucco
2007-02-18 05:38:38

Housing market experts predict speediest recovery on record from a housing market bust…
—————————————————————————————————
Housing market slow to recover, experts predict
By Julie B. Hairston
COX NEWS SERVICE
February 18, 2007

ORLANDO, Fla. – Government and housing industry economists say the ailing housing market will regain a little momentum, but recovery will be slow.

Speaking at the International Builders’ Show, one of the nation’s largest conventions which attracts more than 100,000 housing professionals, the economists diverge on the pace of recovery.

While National Association of Home Builders chief economist David Seiders predicted signs of recovery are imminent, economists for government mortgage underwriters Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac said the market has further to fall.

But the three agreed that sales and prices should be well into recovery by the end of the year.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20070218/news_1h18builders.html

Comment by Quirk
2007-02-18 05:41:03

Well, that’s a relief. For a second there I thought overwhelming property taxes, a negative savings rate, record health-care spending and skyrocketing indebtedness was going to cause some sort of problem.

Comment by kckid
2007-02-18 08:12:45
Comment by not a gator
2007-02-18 08:36:22

The simplistic calculators on companies’ web sites are primitive tools that have no connection to modern mathematics or economic theory

WTF is he talking about? “I had a grad student whip up a computer model, so listen to my mumbo-jumbo”? Finance doesn’t require understanding Fourier transforms (I mean, I’m sorry, is that what he means by “modern mathematics”?), just arithmatic and some basic calculus. Money is pretty basic–income minus expenses. No need to plot your cashflow function on the complex plane (what would the imaginary component be?).

This guy is a pompous ass. Plain and simple. Bray, ass, bray.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by technovelist
2007-02-18 09:27:42

The imaginary component would be the housing appreciation.

 
Comment by sm_landlord
2007-02-18 10:20:14

Once you factor out the square root of minus one, it becomes negative appreciation. Gotta keep those terms straight :-)

 
 
 
 
Comment by dba
2007-02-18 06:29:38

i love this logic

homes were expensive in 2006, dropped a little and now will start to go up into the stratosphere once again. just like the nasdaq bubble thinking of late 2000

Comment by GetStucco
2007-02-18 06:43:09

“just like the nasdaq bubble thinking of late 2000″

I think anthropologists have an edge on economists in explaining such thinking:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult

Comment by jbunniii
2007-02-18 09:50:34

Maybe the realtors can build crude wooden models of buses filled with statues of Californians with bags full of play money and boxes full of artifical stupidity!

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by CA renter
2007-02-19 02:19:20

LOL!! :)

That’s a good one.

 
 
 
 
Comment by implosion
2007-02-18 10:56:58

Who falls into the definition of a “housing professional”?

Comment by CA renter
2007-02-19 02:23:52

Ummm, Ben’s bloggers who sit on a blog for hours a day, and harass realtors at open houses and search public records for sales and mortgage information and keep close track of home sales in specific zips and developments over time, and…

Nah! Just kidding. You know the “housing professionals” are those super-smart realtors with the Glamour Shots photos and leased BMWs who wisely inform us that NOW is the best time to buy, because EVERYBODY wants to live here and we might get priced out…FOREVER!!!

You know…the “professional” experts… ;)

Comment by patient renter
2007-02-19 11:13:43

The few “professionals” I know are all poised to get burned by the market, ALL having purchased houses themselves somewhere near the peak, all using either interest only or some kind of ARM. Experts indeed.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
 
Comment by GetStucco
2007-02-18 05:46:52

DEAN CALBREATH
Moving up in housing not as easy as before
February 18, 2007

In his office in the upscale Kensington neighborhood of San Diego, real estate agent Rex Downing is spending much of his time these days telling clients something they don’t want to hear: Don’t ask too much for your home.

“A lot of sellers are still being unrealistic about what their property is worth,” Downing said. “When I get sellers who take my advice, I can still sell a home by the optimal day – the sixth day of listing – with an offer that’s above the asking price. But not all clients will take my advice.”

In the past month, Downing sold two homes for sellers who took his advice. But he says that most hopeful sellers still come in with prices about 10 percent higher than the market will bear.

“They’re either going to have to drop those prices or pull their home off the market,” Downing said.

And so it goes on the front lines of San Diego County’s anomalous housing market.

Most home sellers and real estate agents in the county would like to forget about 2006. The median home price had its first decline in 11 years. The volume of sales shriveled by 24 percent. Between July and September, foreclosures were three times as high as the summer of 2005.

But still the prices in many San Diego neighborhoods remain in the stratosphere. Countywide, the median home price in the third quarter was slightly less affordable than in late 2005 or 2004 and half as affordable as it was in early 2003, the California Association of Realtors says.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20070218/news_1b18dean.html

Comment by GetStucco
2007-02-18 05:48:53

I take this as an encouraging sign that intelligent life may be returning to the MSM… (Hint to Dean: Check out this blog, pal!)
————————————————————————————————–
NOTE TO READERS

Today, Dean Calbreath begins a weekly column focused on our region’s economy, examining everything from the important local issues to national and international trends that affect this bi-national community.

At the outset, the column will examine the effects of San Diego County’s high housing prices. Is the region becoming a haven for the rich, squeezing out the middle-and lower-classes? Can the area ever become a major corporate center?

Calbreath has covered the economy and international trade for The Union-Tribune since 1997. He was part of the reporting team that won the Pulitzer Prize last year for national reporting.

Comment by flatffplan
2007-02-18 06:30:29

if you think rising housing prices fck things up - wait till you see what falling prices do

Comment by GetStucco
2007-02-18 07:22:34

“wait till you see”

I don’t have to wait, because I have thought it through already. In short, falling prices result in deflationary psychology — would-be buyers prefer waiting to see how far prices will fall before buying a home. This is the hobgoblin that lives under BB’s bed, and he will do whatever he can to try to reflate the market, rather than face a 15 year deflationary downturn like Japan did from 1990-2005 (not sure if it is over, either… simply not keeping score at this point).

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by nhz
2007-02-18 08:01:29

a study from the Dutch banks from about 5 years ago investigated what the most important arguments were with the general public for buying a home (now / instead of renting). Turns out that the most frequently cited one (70% of buyers) was ‘buy now or be priced out forever’. The banks were honest enough to categorize this as ’speculation’; it was far more frequent that ‘buy a home because of expected future appreciation / tax advantages etc.’.

Of course these factors are closely related, but as we know fear (to be priced out forever) is stronger than greed (get rich quick in RE). The fear factor only starts to work in reverse, pushing prices down, after some time (at least 1-2 years I guess) of serious downside movement in home prices, but by that time it might become the most important argument for NOT buying a home.

I agree with GetStucco dat BB will do anything he can to prevent this from happening.

 
Comment by jbunniii
2007-02-18 09:57:27

Wall Street and the major corporations that actually run this country (as opposed to the dumb Texan puppet in the White House) are not going to want the massive inflation and devaluation of the dollar that would be required to support current house prices. Therefore it won’t happen.

Even if BB attempted it, unemployment would rise greatly, which would wreck the ability of many FB’s to make payments while waiting for the nominal bail-out. Thus more foreclosures, more deflationary pressure, etc.

Setting interest rates to zero for years didn’t work in Japan; why would it work here?

 
 
 
 
Comment by not a gator
2007-02-18 08:37:47

He should have changed his name to Rex Upping! Yuk yuk!

 
 
Comment by WT Economist
2007-02-18 06:24:07

“Moving up in housing not as easy as before”

Isn’t it easier? Undercut the comps by 10 percent. Rent for a couple of years and bank some interest. Then move into a better place for the same price.

Comment by targetdrone
2007-02-18 06:55:22

Ahh, but that would require patience - gotta have it now, dont you know.

Comment by not a gator
2007-02-18 08:39:58

Put nothing down, can’t carry the mortgage… oh yeah, you gotta have it now.

 
 
 
Comment by Palisades Park
2007-02-18 06:27:17

Excerpt from NY Times Feb 18th article, “The Psychology of Pricing”

Buyers, in turn, parry by deconstructing the price. They aim not merely to assess a dwelling’s fair value but also to plumb a seller’s bottom line and vulnerabilities. How a price tracks with similar properties, how large and hasty any reduction is, and even how parsed or rounded a number is — all these are grist for concluding, rightly or not, whether a price is firm, desperate or a sign of painful dealings to come.

Or even a sign of delusion.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/18/realestate/18cov.html?ref=realestate

 
Comment by mrktMaven FL
2007-02-18 06:38:11

Panic Selling Or Stressful Selling? Hmmm. I read yesterday’s thread about tipping point and I agree somewhat with some of the posters regarding panic selling. Panic selling conjures up the image of fast stock exchange open outcry selling. Apart from the auction house OR courthouse, we are probably not going to see that type of selling.
Sellers are under a tremendous amount of stress, however, as reflected by their behaviors which at the end of the day results in bailing out of the market — Market Bailing.

The big and medium sized builders are offering tremendous incentives and in some cases lowering prices to make a sale. As insane as it looks to us, they keep building because it provides them an exit. Some builders are walking away from land options which is another way of giving up ownership. Anyway you look at it, they are Market Bailing.

Small builders are quickly running out of cash and are looking at forced OR auction sales. Condo developers are becoming landlords and apartment converters are becoming apartments again. In sum, more Market Bailing.

Now to speculators and J6P, the least rational players. They too are under stress. Prices are not increasing as they expected. In fact, prices are flat and decreasing in some areas. As a result, they stopped buying like they did back in 2003-2005. Some are choosing to exit now as reflected in inventories. Others are waiting for the NAR data, the MSM, and Suzy Orman to tell them what to do. When they and their friends, families, and investment clubs all agree RE prices can also go down, I suspect we will see even more Market Bailing.

In other words, no matter how you choose to describe sellers’ exits (orderly v uncontrolled) sellers are indeed exiting the market. Thus far, we’ve seen the calm cool rational builders planned exits. We are currently at the tipping point for speculator and J6P’s unplanned exits. Is it going to be orderly OR uncontrolled? Hmmm… Keep reading this blog and we’ll see.

Comment by GetStucco
2007-02-18 06:46:55

I vote orderly, as in controlled burn. But there is always some risk that controlled burns will become disorderly…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerro_Grande_Fire

(P.S. Think of the Fed playing the role of the U.S. Forest Service if you missed the “controlled burn” connection…)

Comment by mrktMaven FL
2007-02-18 07:36:38

Like the little controlled fire burning in the subprime sector.

Ever glimpsed at a product diffusion curve? Imagine the idea ‘real estate is a bad investment’ as your product.

Link: http://tinyurl.com/3a6h22

Comment by GetStucco
2007-02-18 07:58:34

Exactly my point.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by sm_landlord
2007-02-18 10:28:26

The question is whether “real estate is a bad investment’ as a product has crossed the chasm in the diffusion curve yet. Or if there is in fact such a chasm in this curve.

I would argue that the “Early Adopters” (noticably on this blog) have adopted the product, but there is still some question about whether the “Early Majority” has bought in yet, or what it will take to make that happen.

A lot more MSM stories like the last several week’s worth plus some more lender failures may be required.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by mrktMaven FL
2007-02-18 10:53:15

“crossed the chasm”

Geoffrey Moore reference? Conditions are set for a foreclosure tornado, IMO. You know what happens to the MSM when tornadoes touch down. It’s hard to ignore.

Expect a widening (more activity) of distribution channels like auctions, courthouses, huds, fsbos, classifieds, and others yet to be launched in addition to increasing inventories on the MLS.

 
 
 
Comment by Isoldearly
2007-02-18 09:01:24

Once again your thinking is very convincing GS. Trying to imagine exactly what a controlled or orderly “housing price panic” looks like. Never seen one, so hard to get a clear vision. I guess it’s a gradual down step in prices to a set number then returning to a gradual increase in prices. It’s not dramatic, feels safe; keeps the bulls happy as they can still see Goldilocks on the path but bears are happy cause they can say: “see! told you it was going to go down.” I’m ok with this scenario if housing prices eventually get down to where firemen, teachers and police can buy an average house in a decent neighborhood and not have it eat up 50% of their HH income. Actually I like it a lot. Not fond of a “crash and burn” scenario in housing that lingers for a decade.

 
Comment by implosion
2007-02-18 11:30:14

Ahhh, the CG fire, I still remember seeing the controlled burn just as it was getting started from my office window and thinking to myself, man, that dry wind from the west is really starting to pick up. The rest is history.

After the fact, of course, many people wished their houses had burned down. Now you have areas of the town where houses that were old POS survived, right next door to some places that were burned down and rebuilt as McMansions to max lot coverage. You have to see it to believe it.

 
 
Comment by davidcee
2007-02-18 10:43:35

“Thus far, we’ve seen the calm cool rational builders planned exits.” The panic stage leads to CAPITULATION, thta’s when we see the new pricing model. The end of the Spring Non-Buying season, say around June 1..will be the tipping point.

 
 
Comment by W.D. Potter
2007-02-18 06:50:33

From page A7 of this weekend’s WSJ:

“The Fed’s remarkably easy monetary policy helped goose house prices over several years. In turn, a large number of first-time buyers took advantage of low mortgage rates, especially on adjustable-rate loans, to stretch their buying power in the hopes of leveraging their way up the home-buying ladder. But someone finally blew the dog whistle in late 2005, and the buying dried up.”

I’m intrigued by the use of the term “dog whistle.” Why not just “a whistle?” Since a dog whistle is only heard by dogs, who were the dogs in this case?

Comment by GetStucco
2007-02-18 07:23:32

“… who were the dogs in this case?”

Not sure, but I suggested yesterday that some of Ben’s posters were the whistleblowers.

 
Comment by Sunsetbeachguy
2007-02-18 08:55:15

I think the dog whistle is the reference to I believe Barbara Corcoran that said in 1989 the peak of the last bubble.

Someone blew a whistle that only dogs and buyers could here and all buying stopped.

 
Comment by Chip
2007-02-18 08:56:44

Maybe the analogy is that buyers figured out intuitively that something was wrong with the market and prices and toxic loans and, without being advised to by the MSM, stopped buying,

Comment by mrktMaven FL
2007-02-18 09:55:06

Or simply, maybe everyone who wanted to buy bought. Notice I did not say everyone willing and able to buy bought because even those who were willing but unable to buy somehow bought. The subprime unwinding is evidence of this buyer group.

Comment by GetStucco
2007-02-18 12:56:40

‘The subprime unwinding is evidence of this buyer group.’

If only they could have foreseen the subprime subsidence, Realtors last year could have said, “Buy now, or get underwritten out of the lending market forever.”

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
 
Comment by sagesse
2007-02-18 06:58:19

Please allow me to re-post the link to the documentary about our monetary system, as it is such an outstanding history lesson, for all those who are not sure what the Fed really is. One can watch it in increments, such as half hour a day for a week.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1583154561904832383&q=money+masters

Related, a speech by Rep. Paul, about gold standard, the Opec deal, and the reason why there is such saber rattling against Iran. Was surprised to find such views by a House member - the whole thing is from one year ago; a month later, the Fed discontinued publication of M3, and today, we have the saber rattling against Iran.

http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2006/cr021506.htm

Comment by Laura
2007-02-18 16:56:38

And delightfully, Ron Paul is running for President, so maybe fiscal responsibility, among other concepts, will return to Washington. People priced out of houses at the moment should be behind this guy 100% - we wouldn’t have had the speculation we now have.

Comment by rms
2007-02-18 17:16:52

“…so maybe fiscal responsibility, among other concepts, will return to Washington.”

Oh man…’yer getting me down.

 
 
 
Comment by Jas Jain
Comment by txchick57
2007-02-18 08:13:13

Great site! Speaks to all my neuroses.

 
 
Comment by hwy50ina49dodge
2007-02-18 07:11:11

“but then the remote control changed the life of every man.”

The article misses the true utility of the device…the ability to make politicians SHUT UP on demand…and to shunt the message of drug companies
A national holiday / first Tuesday in November.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070217/ap_on_re_us/obit_adler

 
Comment by CarrieAnn
2007-02-18 07:35:45

For those that devour reading, I’d like to recommend “Boldt Castle, In Search of the Lost Story” by Paul Malo (architect and SU professor emeritus).

For those that don’t recognize the landmark, Boldt Castle ” is an international historic landmark, situated on Heart Island, among the Thousand Island of the St. Lawrence River between the Province of Ontario and New York State. More than 4 million people have visited Boldt Castle since it first opened to the public more than 80 years ago”….. it “attract(s) about a quarter-million visitors each year.”

Although people are drawn by the castle itself, George Boldt actually owned several “dream homes” on several islands, each with their own boat house, servants quarters, gardens, etc. Among his other area properties, he owned the largest farm in NY State and some of the best polo ponies in the country.

http://www.boldtcastle.com/photogal.html

The reason I recommend the book for the housing bubble crowd is that it gives incredible insight to the rise and fall of wealth at the turn of the 19th century. Especially interesting are interviews with heirs (ie Andy McNally of Rand McNally fame) of these residences and the stories of how these island properties were allowed to deteriorate over time until the families either razed them to avoid the tax burden or ended up gifting them to some state or preservation society.

(These were/are families with deep pockets but the keen observation was made that old money protects and doesn’t spend the principal!)

Especially fascinating is the suggestion that the castle’s love story has been a fabricated cover up and that Louise may have actually committed suicide when their financial situation took a downturn. The castle was never completed as all worked stopped upon her sudden death. It then was allowed to fall apart with interior furnishings still crated in the basement untouched.

The Boldts had arrived from Prussia from a bourgeious origin, yet while running the Waldorf-Astoria (and other hotels) for the Asters made a forturne in the stock market (probably due to client stock tips) .

I’m only 1/2 way thru the book myself but I’m finding it incredibly insightful….with strong parallels to the present.

Comment by CA renter
2007-02-19 02:51:25

Sounds fascinating. Thanks for the recommendation, CarrieAnn! :)

 
 
Comment by Russ Winter
2007-02-18 08:04:21

More Hyperreality from Ventura County:

http://wallstreetexaminer.com/blogs/winter/?p=442

 
Comment by Rhodes
2007-02-18 08:19:21

HUDSON - In the evocatively named community of Pine Ridge at Sugar Creek, recent events have not been so sweet for residents.

Built at the height of Pasco’s residential market boom nearly two years ago, homes at the development on State Road 52 used to sell for $300,000.

But when residents found out the developer sold some neighboring houses for $199,000 last month, they saw a telling signal - and it wasn’t about sagging markets or buyer’s remorse.

“They’re dumping to get out,” resident Rosalyn Fenton said.

 
Comment by Mozo Maz
2007-02-18 08:28:08

Here’s a nice quote raided from the Appriaser’s forum, referring to the Danville/Martinsvilel area of Virginia.

———-
My family has been in the real estate business since 1960 and I have been around this circle many times.

I went to a land auction sale this morning of some of the nicest lot and acreage tracts I have seen. The auctioneer, one of richest men in the region, has been in the business 60 years and has sold more land then you can imagine. There were 15 people at the sale of 14 parcels. He offered three parcels and received three opening bids from the second richest man in the region. It was obvious the sale was going nowhere so the sale was stopped.

That has happened to me at least three in my 35 year career and I remember it happening a number of times to my dad. Just prior to recessions the same thing always happens. I subdivided large acreage tracts into nice lots, held the auction sale and it was a bust. People just stood there and looked at me. The market just stops.

But It always comes back though which is my point. The problem is not a recession but a return to a rational equilibrium. Actually the market was never really hot it was just a result of liberal money policy to stimulate the GDP. It worked so now it is time to put the fire out and get on with regular business of producing products and services instead of running a gimmick economy to create wealth without actually producing anything.

The problem with that is that is nothing but a shell game to transfer wealth from the stupid to the slick and ruthless. Kind of like CE in the appraisal industry; there is one born every minute and a never ending supply. The secret is to keep your expenses low, save for a rainy day, go fishing and wait for the next cycle to begin.

It is not a bad life if you stay ahead of the curve but if you have already spent everything you will make for the next ten years you may have a bit of a problem. They are the people that call a recession a depression.

Comment by Rickoshay100
2007-02-18 09:45:33

“The secret is to keep your expenses low, save for a rainy day, go fishing and wait for the next cycle to begin.”

that is one very wise man.

Comment by GetStucco
2007-02-18 18:24:10

It also might not hurt to pray that the wheels don’t fall off the car while you are saving for the rainy day…

 
 
 
Comment by sellnrun
2007-02-18 08:47:35

“Subprime lending notoriously understates future Credit costs (overstating current profits/returns), a profits distortion made much more consequential by “gain on sale” accounting, “mark-to-market,” “mark-to-model,” speculator leveraging, and other nuances of contemporary finance. And as long as individual lenders and the industry overall each year expand the scope of lending, rising revenues (from new loans) can remain somewhat ahead of mounting Credit losses (from old loans). But the longer this inflationary process is allowed to proceed the greater will be the unavoidable (Ponzi) bust. Actually, it is my view that with our entire Credit system now operating as a Ponzi Finance Unit, the “prime” mortgage market functions with similar dynamics as those noted above for subprime.

We are in the midst of a unique Credit cycle. The ability for originators to sell loans and immediately book profits; for investment bankers to buy, securitize and immediately book profits; and for leveraged speculators to acquire various securitizations and other derivatives and book easy profits from various spreads and “mark-to-model” - have all made this Credit boom unlike any other. In particular, the ability to securitize loans in the highly liquid ABS/MBS marketplace, as well as insure/speculate on Credit performance in booming derivatives markets, has – or perhaps in the case of subprime, had - radically altered the capacity to prolong the Credit cycle.

Today, Subprime mortgage originator profits are collapsing – lending volumes are sinking; “gain on sale” is reversing to loss; Credit losses (especially from returned “early defaults”) are surging; and the liquidity necessary to operate is disappearing overnight. This has initiated the ugly downside of operating as a Ponzi Finance Unit. The issue of early payment defaults – where investment bankers/securitization pool operators return problem mortgages in droves back to the originator – is rapidly bankrupting this thinly-capitalized industry. And the more acute the risk of insolvency, the greater the incentive for investment banks to rush to dump problem loans while the originator still retains some liquidity (think “bank run”). Wednesday, California originator ResMae filed for bankruptcy after Merrill Lynch sought to return $520 million “worth” of mortgages.

This has enormous ramifications for the industry. Subprime Credit conditions are in the process of tightening – how tight only time will tell. Subprime borrowers this year facing payment resets will confront a changed industry. Those with second mortgages or hoping to add a home equity loan will face much tighter lending standards. Desperate borrowers stretched the truth in 2006 to get new mortgages approved. Such tactics won’t be so easy in 2007. The weakest originators are disappearing and those left will, at the end of the day, be much more prudent and disciplined. Scores of borrowers will be left in the lurch.

But like everything else associated with this most extraordinary Credit Cycle, the analysis is infinitely more complex than what meets the eye. We are undoubtedly in the midst of a major liquidity event for the subprime originators. Additionally, the riskiest CDO and securitization tranches (and related derivatives) will suffer heavy losses. This is a decisive Credit event for the subprime industry, likely marking a major reduction in new subprime loans and escalating Credit losses. Thus far, however, there is little indication that the (paramount) market for “prime” mortgages is being impacted much at all. And when it comes to the subject of overall system liquidity, the current level of tumult could prove less than significant.”

Doug Noland
on Prudent Bear.com

Comment by sellnrun
2007-02-18 08:53:20

The ramifications will be a drastic reduction in the pool of “potential” buyers, at the very least. Mr. Noland, a brilliant analyst, tends toward the conservative in his assessment of potential outcomes. A severe reduction in the pool of buyers (even if only subprime) leads to the following: a drastic fall in home prices, a glut of homes, and a reduction in liquidity. At the very least.

Comment by Isoldearly
2007-02-18 09:13:47

Sellnrun do you agree with GS that all of this will probably happen in an orderly fashion (likened to a controlled burn)?

Comment by sellnrun
2007-02-18 11:09:11

No. The imbalances are too great. Manias SEEM “orderly” on the way up, only to appear crazy through the scope of history. They all fall apart on the way down, so attempting to control them is like trying to catch a bucket of water.

This one has historical comparisons worthy of the Great Depression on so many levels, it’s mind-boggling. How orderly were the early years of the Great Depression?

I believe that much of the time the perspective on current events is lost. I’m sure that many of the events leading into the Great Depression were not entirely noteworthy to the layman at the time they occurred. Only when the confluence of events were judged from a historical perspective did they seem so grand. I’m sure many of the events dismissed by much of the media today will be seen as watershed events when judged through the perspective of history.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by GetStucco
2007-02-18 12:58:35

“I’m sure many of the events dismissed by much of the media today will be seen as watershed events when judged through the perspective of history.”

I’m sure many of the events dismissed by much of the media today will be seen as watershed events by the same media later this year.

 
Comment by Mozo Maz
2007-02-18 13:10:27

“How orderly were the early years of the Great Depression?”

One of the interesting things I’ve leared about the Great Depression was that it took a while to settle in. Plenty of people in the heartland all the way through late 1930 viewed it as a Wall Street problem.

When the layoffs began in earnest, the numbers just kept ratcheting up all the way to 1933. Every year people said “Surely it can’t get any worse than this”.

So assuming historians tag the RE bubble pop starting in late 2005, if by late 2008 we’re in full crash mode, it won’t seem that unusual in the text books.

 
Comment by rms
2007-02-18 17:29:21

“One of the interesting things I’ve leared about the Great Depression was that it took a while to settle in. Plenty of people in the heartland all the way through late 1930 viewed it as a Wall Street problem.”

It will go faster, must faster, this time ’round. Point-Of-Sale and and Just-In-Time database inventory systems reflect the bad news within hours or less in many instances. On March 23, 1994, Luis Donaldo Colosio, the presidential candidate of the ruling party (PRI), was assassinated, and within seconds, the foreign investment capitol (billions) was heading for the exits.

 
Comment by GetStucco
2007-02-18 22:06:59

When the layoffs began in earnest, the numbers just kept ratcheting up all the way to 1933. Every year people said “Surely it can’t get any worse than this”.’

‘On the eighth day, the forty-year-old hobo said to Billy, “This ain’t bad. I can be comfortable anywhere.”

“You can?” said Billy.

On the ninth day, the hobo died. So it goes.’

“Schlachthof Fuenf”
–Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.–

 
 
Comment by GetStucco
2007-02-18 12:45:50

“will probably happen”

That is not what I said (or maybe I was too vague). At any rate, I believe the “plan” is for a controlled burn, but the risk is great for something more like the Cerro Grande Fire.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
 
Comment by NoVa RE Supernova
2007-02-18 09:08:47

http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2007/3407real_est_hedges.html

Hedge funds frantically scrambling for cash to stave off blowout, with two RE-related mega-funds leading the way. This is going to be orders of magnitude worse than the 1998 LTCM meltdown that almost brought down the global financial system.

 
Comment by crispy&cole
2007-02-18 09:12:43

Wasco and Lamont the place to invest?

http://bakersfieldbubble.blogspot.com

 
Comment by Portland Mainer
2007-02-18 09:30:28

Subprime subterfuge - a ban on Flipping

By TOM BELL, Staff Writer

Sunday, February 18, 2007

A mortgage broker recently left a message on Jennifer Richardson’s home answering machine suggesting it was time to refinance again.

This time, she didn’t call back.

Since she bought her one-level ranch in Lewiston six years ago for $73,000, she has refinanced five times and has incurred $58,000 in fees and penalties. She said she now understands that brokers sometimes give people advice that is not in their best interest.

“I have been misled and taken advantage of,” said Richardson, 36, who works seasonally at L.L. Bean and also as a substitute teacher. “They know it. It’s almost like they prey on people.”

http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/business/stories/070218predatory.html

 
Comment by Terry
2007-02-18 09:33:02

Whatever happened to my hero? This guy stood up to big business in the labor strikes of the thirties and forties. He negotiated labor contracts, got medical benefits for famlies, vacations and pensions. Business thrived. GM and all the auto makers were doing well. He made things, not just paper trades, but tangible goods. He was inventive and smart. No college degree required here, just the motivation to work hard and suceed. He was very sucessful. A home was 1,000 square feet, with one bath. Never more than one car in the driveway. Mom was at home all the time. A beat cop walked the street and knew all of our family by first name. The nuns slapped us up, when we deserved it and they made responsible adults out of us. Dinner was at 5, and we kids new better than to miss beiing there. One tv set and dad decided the station. No video games, but a fishing trip in the summer at the lake. The boys club, Boy Scouts.
CYO. We had it all, thanks to my hero, my dad.
Where are those heros? It seems the boomer generation just wasted their entire legacy. Not on themselves, but on the kids of the boomers. Send the wife to work, day care, video games, no supervision, no rules. basice skills lost in school. No need to learn. Greed will suffice for everything, everything handed on a platter. no need to work…just cheat, scam and take. The more taken, the less guilt. Marry, hell divorce at the first sign of touble. Extended famlies.. the joke of the century. Womens lib…you got what you asked for…
I would like to personally thank my generation for the America we have today. What our parents worked so hard to instill in us seems to be lost.
End of rant!

Comment by arroyogrande
2007-02-18 10:29:23

“Womens lib…you got what you asked for…”

Huh? Nothing wrong with “womens’ lib”, as long as it means “choice”, and not “you must NOT be a stay at home mom, wear high-heels, scrub a floor”. I have three daughters, and I’m glad for women’s lib, as long as it’s TRUE womens’ lib, and not a code word for femenazism.

You have some good points, but you are overgalmorizing your gneration. I’m sure that the generation previous to yours felt that your generation were, in some ways, slackers. What ever happened to rising an hour befre the sun, milking the cows, feeding the chickens, tending the fields, riding horses, walking, barn dances, helping your neighbor out, a woman and minorities knowing their place, the woodshed for your kids, etc. etc. etc.

 
Comment by jbunniii
2007-02-18 11:18:13

The nuns slapped us up, when we deserved it and they made responsible adults out of us. Dinner was at 5, and we kids new better than to miss beiing there. One tv set and dad decided the station. No video games, but a fishing trip in the summer at the lake. The boys club, Boy Scouts.

To each his own I guess. This sounds like hell on earth to me.

 
 
Comment by sm_landlord
2007-02-18 10:34:04

Arrrg. Now the FHA is trying to become more “relevant” by loaning at inflated values.

From the LA Times.

I guess folks might inform kathy.kristof@latimes.com that this is a really bad idea…

Comment by ddinoc
2007-02-18 13:38:16

I imagine Kathy Kristof already knows what a bad idea this is. The real moron here is Alphonso Jackson, our illustrious HUD Secretary.

 
 
Comment by ocbear
2007-02-18 11:31:58

With the deteriorating housing market and public markets likely to follow, where are you all investing? I was thinking about European ETFs but Europe may be right behind us in terms of a meltdown. I could park it all in CDs, but I would love to profit from the meltdown if possible.

Comment by technovelist
2007-02-18 12:04:38

There’s only one form of insurance against a financial catastrophe like the one this is shaping up to be: gold.

Comment by ocbear
2007-02-18 12:06:18

My 401k doesn’t offer gold. What else you got?

 
Comment by Mark
2007-02-18 12:15:45

Gold will be a means of exchange only in a Mad Max world. Things will get bad, especially in the cities, but not that bad.
If it does get that bad, one would use gold to buy guns anyway.

 
Comment by devo
2007-02-18 13:20:33

Interesting chapter in “Hedgehogging” by Barton Biggs about disaster hedges. They must be highly portable, easily hidden and very marketable. Both Marie Antoinette and the czarina of Russia stuffed jewels into their bodices when revolutions forced them to flee their palaces. In Hong Kong 1942 jewelry had great purchasing power because the Chinese girlfriends of the Japanese military wanted it. While hookers got money and goods from the Japanese the most beatiful courtesans wanted to accululate jewelry both to wear and as a store of value. Apparantly neither the Japanese of their girlfriends cared much for gold.

Comment by aladinsane
2007-02-18 14:57:01

150 Troy Ounces of Gold, or $100k, weighs about 10 pounds~

Doesn’t take up space.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by crazy canuck
2007-02-18 15:14:31

http://tinyurl.com/yodjpm
sorry if this is a double post.

Comment by fred hooper
2007-02-18 16:30:31

Corrigan gave one of my all-time favorite speeches canuck.

Here’s a better link: http://www.safehaven.com/article-5239.htm

No better use of server space than the end:

Eventually, the chickens do come home to roost, even if the misguided actions taken under the influence of a whining collectivism or by reason of naked political cynicism can delay a recognition of the trends and can divert their costs onto unsuspecting shoulders for longer than many who foretell the end can credit.

Reluctantly, I cannot fail to conclude that we are on a path toward ever less personal liberty and to ever greater violations of the sacred rights of private property.

Thus we are on a path where genuine entrepreneurialism and the creation of real wealth are very much hampered.

It is a path whose weary milestones are scored with the wasteful disincentives of welfarism and which is misleadingly signposted with the daubings of post-modernist voodoo, its billboards shrieking the slogans of group victimhood and emblazoned with demands for the suppression of the individual.

It is a path whose crumbling paving stones are being overrun by the toxic, green shoots of that shrill new Inquisition which is today’s cult of environmentalism.

It is a path that echoes to the cadenced tramp of men marching out to fight yet another vain war in the hope of postponing, by feats of arms, the impending decline of our present suzerains.

This is also, by necessity, a path to monetary adulteration and to a creeping corruption of body and soul.

It is a path beside which Atlas may, indeed, be seen to shrug.

In such a world, it is likely to be the case that people will, from time to time, seek to acquire holdings of a relatively scarce, high value-by-weight, easily fungible, liquid, storable, real asset as an alternative to their holdings of a much less scarce, eroding value paper asset, such as comprises today’s money.

In such a world, gold may therefore command a higher price than it did in more innocent times when the side effects of our ongoing decline were less severe and when the prospect of our fall was much easier to ignore.

If you hold that this kind of dread and defensiveness explains at least part of the metal’s rising price, it is hardly a cause for universal rejoicing. For, though it is understandable that gold’s long-suffering believers now feel gloriously vindicated, we must temper our present glee with the thought that the rally being enjoyed may be no more than a waypoint on our road to a self-imposed and wholly unnecessary ruin.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
 
Comment by Bill in Phoenix
2007-02-18 12:33:44

A few days back I read an article about how much people with a net worth of $1,000,000 put into their primary residence, and how much those with a net worth of $10,000,000 put into their primary residence. The article took statistics out of the book “The Millionaire Next Door,” by Stanley and Danko. Then I look at one of those ads on Yahoo that pop up on the side. A chubby pre-middle aged man in a sweater (Mr. Average) dancing a jig over a $500,000 mortgage. The article says people with a net worth of $1,000,000 or more have less than 10% of their net worth in real estate. The dancing man obviously is no millionaire. The ad is marketed at the average American, who earns $50,000 to $85,000. Whatever happened to the rule that you should never buy more than 2 and a half times your income?

 
Comment by GetStucco
2007-02-18 18:13:04

FAMILY FINANCES
The Wall Street Journal Sunday
‘Short Sales’ Rise
As Housing Market Cools
By RUTH SIMON
February 18, 2007

As the number of borrowers falling behind on their mortgage payments climbs to the highest level in five years, the number of “short sales” is increasing.

In a short sale of a home, a lender allows the property to be sold for less than the total amount due. In many cases, the lender forgives the remaining debt.

Short sales fell out of favor when mortgage delinquencies were low and rising home prices made it easy for borrowers who ran into trouble to sell their homes or refinance their mortgages. But as the housing market cools, interest in short sales is increasing.

Bank of America says it saw short sales of homes increase 25% last year, albeit from relatively low levels. In San Diego, the number of entries in the local multiple-listing service that include the words “short sale” has climbed to 129 from 50 a little more than a year ago, according to Sandicor, the local multiple-listing service.

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB117175327453912404.html?mod=sunday_journal_primary_hs

 
Comment by GetStucco
2007-02-18 18:15:50

Housing bubble’s reach extends to Panama City…
————————————————————————————————-
A Booming Panama City Awaits Noriega’s Return
By José de Córdoba
Word Count: 1,466

PANAMA CITY, Panama — When Gen. Manuel Antonio Noriega gets back to this lush tropical city after a 17-year absence, the former Panamanian strongman will scarcely recognize his old haunts. I barely did.

The news that Mr. Noriega plans to come back to Panama in September after spending nearly two decades in a U.S. prison since being deposed in a 1989 invasion, is the talk of the town. His return has momentarily eclipsed the other omnipresent subject of conversation here — the real-estate boom fueled in part by American retirees, which has turned this once laid-back city, known as a …

http://users1.wsj.com/lmda/do/checkLogin?mg=wsj-users1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB117166770175011667.html%3Fmod%3Dhome_we_banner_left

 
Comment by GetStucco
2007-02-18 18:21:51

PERSONAL BUSINESS
The Wall Street Journal Sunday
Why a No-Interest Bargain Can Be a No-No
By JACLYNE BADAL
February 18, 2007

Are financing deals that promise “no money down and no interest” a good deal — or too good to be true?

These promotional loans can actually pay off if shoppers are willing to do their homework, make timely payments and read the contract’s fine print, experts say. If not, the promotions are a temptation best avoided.

Customers who aren’t careful make the mistake of overemphasizing the benefits of a free loan, says Richard Pittman, housing-services coordinator at ByDesign Financial Solutions, a nonprofit credit counselor in Los Angeles. He says stores often pay for the promotions by boosting prices or delivery fees or selling extras, such as warranties.

Financing deals are “kind of like the sleight of hand with a magician,” Mr. Pittman says. “You don’t see what’s right in front of your face.”

Consider a shopper who uses a promotion to defer payments for 12 months on a three-piece Ashley Furniture sofa set, last week listed for $2,381 at one online retailer.

If the purchase price is invested in an online savings account with a 5% yield for a year, it can earn about $120 in interest. But a second store on the Web last week listed an identical set for $1,538. The $120 gain from holding the money for 12 months pales in comparison to the $843 price difference.

And that’s assuming the shopper actually had $2,381 to park in a savings account. Many people turn to financing deals because they don’t have ready cash available. If that’s the case, consumers have the added burden of ensuring they can afford to pay the balance before the grace period ends.

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB117175741283012423.html?mod=sunday_journal_primary_hs

 
Comment by Matt_In_Tx
2007-02-18 18:54:49

More optimism from California, via Forbes:
Housing Boom!
http://members.forbes.com/forbes/2007/0226/110.html#_top
(Requires free registration. Might be worth it for the jaw dropping analysis.)

Why 2007 won’t see soft OR hard landing: “Right now the U.S. and global economies are both accelerating.” Main evidence seems to be mostly because Home builders are up 24%. See the three home builder stocks you should buy. Apparently, the market can’t be wrong expecting earnings to improve.

Of course the San Mateo county based author might feel differently by the time his 2/26/2007 article is widely read, based on last week’s news.

 
Name (required)
E-mail (required - never shown publicly)
URI
Your Comment (smaller size | larger size)
You may use <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong> in your comment.

Trackback responses to this post