Willing To Buy, But Definitely Not At Top Dollar
The Herald Tribune reports from Florida. “The Sky Sotheby’s/J.P. King real estate auction, offering one of the largest luxury home portfolios ever presented in a single swoop, drew an overflow crowd of 300 people. What the event showed even those in Southwest Florida’s all-important real estate industry who decided to bypass the gathering was that people are willing to buy, but definitely not at top dollar.”
“Some properties only generated half of their listed prices, while others commanded up to 80 percent.”
“Well-known Sarasota investor Marvin Kaplan bought a four-bedroom, three-bath house on Parmeron Lane in Gladstone Park for $300,000. The builder had about $590,000 in the home, meaning Kaplan got it for about 49 percent off. Kaplan offered to buy three more at the same price but the owner turned him down.”
“Someone got a tremendous $125,000 bargain on the absolute sale of a vacant lot near Sarasota Memorial Hospital. The property last sold for $415,000 in 2005.”
“Earl Niemoth summed up what might be the consensus among a real estate industry still struggling with slow sales and burgeoning inventory. ‘The bottom line is that they moved some property today,’ he said.”
The Orlando Sentinel. “Builders in the new Sawgrass subdivision south of Orlando are adding this weekend to what is already the fastest-growing segment of the housing market in Central Florida: model homes.”
“Builders have significantly cut the number of homes, condominiums and town houses they’re putting up in the region, as demand has slumped. But model homes are making a brisk comeback.”
“‘Before, all we needed to do was put up a sign, a ‘Coming Soon’ sign, and we’d get 400 people lined up. Now you really have to build and decorate model homes,’ said David Byrnes, Orlando division president of Beazer Homes.”
“According to Metrostudy, builders in the six-county area have boosted the total number of model homes by more than 50 percent in less than a year. The number of subdivision models in those counties, Orange, Seminole, Osceola, Lake, Volusia and Polk, mushroomed from 630 at the end of last June to more than 950 by the end of March, with much of the increase coming in the first quarter of the year.”
“‘It’s a reflection of the lack of sales activity,’ said Anthony Crocco, director of Metrostudy’s Central Florida and Northeast divisions.”
From Reuters. “The St. Joe Co. on Friday said it was temporarily suspending sales at its SevenShores luxury condominium development in Bradenton, Fla., while it updates its market research.”
“‘The slowing market has provided an opportunity to measure and analyze current demand so that we can better align our future product offerings before moving forward with sales,’ Nick Cassala, the company’s president of Northeast/Central Florida, said in a statement.”
The Wall Street Journal. “If the housing-market shakeout has an epicenter, it probably lies in Florida. Goldman Sachs economists note that speculative buyers in houses and, especially, condos fed a building boom that pushed Florida’s housing stock up far more quickly than the state’s population grew.”
“Speculators who have held back on selling now bear heavy costs. According to the U.S. Commerce Department, the number of vacant homes for sale in Florida doubled last year to 4.3 percent of the state’s total housing stock. That’s the highest vacancy rate in the country.”
“Home builders, hard hit everywhere, are getting hit hardest in Florida. Building permits for new-home construction were 51 percent below their year-ago level in the first quarter, according to the Commerce Department.”
“Florida’s housing woes likely will cause a statewide economic recession, according to New York investment firm Goldman Sachs.”
“Florida sales of single-family existing homes were down 26 percent in the first quarter of 2007 compared with the same period in 2006, according to the Florida Association of Realtors. Of 20 Metropolitan Statistical Areas, 19 of 20 were down in sales. Median sales prices were down 3 percent statewide.”
The TC Palm. “There were 3,500 more people on the Treasure Coast seeking work in April than a year earlier, with many of the jobs lost in construction, utilities and transportation.”
“Robert Sak, a Fort Pierce-based independent building inspector, said the numbers appear to match the market. ‘Prior to the slump, I had four to five inspections per day,’ said Sak, who inspects homes across the Treasure Coast. ‘Now I am doing one a day.’”
“‘Any business that depends on housing is going to be affected by this,’ said custom homebuilder Richard Hope in Vero Beach. ‘Furniture stores and landscaping businesses have been hurt pretty badly by all this.’”
“Merle Dimbath, Treasure Coast economist, said the report does not reflect the region’s true unemployment figures. ‘There’s a lot of people who are underemployed because their hours have been cut back from 40 to 50 hours a week to 12 to 18 hours a week,’ Dimbath said. ‘My suspicion is, a lot of people attached to the housing market are self- employed and file a 1099, so they won’t show up in this report.’”
“Susan Billero, owner of Billero & Billero Properties, said because developers are building less, there is little work available for construction workers. Additionally, less demand for homes means less traffic at Realtor offices. ‘A lot of (Realtor) offices were letting people go,’ Billero said.”
The Sun Sentinel. “The housing slump is chipping away at South Florida’s sturdy job market. Construction and real estate companies with bloated payrolls during the boom years now are cutting back, and experts predict those firms will shed more jobs in the coming months.”
“In April, Broward and Palm Beach counties lost almost 12,000 jobs, and statewide the building and real estate sectors led the payroll cuts, according to figures released Friday.”
“‘I just needed a break,’ longtime agent Myrna Bier of Boca Raton said. She recently left Lang Realty frustrated with the industry downturn and the hoard of people who jumped into the profession when housing was hot.”
“‘Anybody can go to school and get a license [to sell real estate]. There are a lot of amateurs out there who don’t know what they’re doing,’ she said.”
“Meanwhile, Broward County lost 6,362 jobs last month, compared with March.”
“There could be more job losses to come. ‘So far, we haven’t really seen the effects of a construction collapse,’ David Denslow of the University of Florida Bureau of Business and Economic Research, said. But he’s expecting more declines, following slowdowns in the housing market and the nation’s economy at the start of the year.”
The News Press. “Seasonal hiring declines and the area’s slowed construction industry pushed Lee County’s unemployment rate up slightly in April.”
“Builders in unincorporated Lee County, Bonita Springs and Fort Myers Beach pulled 264 permits last month for single-family homes, 69 percent fewer than the same month a year ago.”
“While the slowdown has had a direct impact on construction hiring, it also has slowed hiring in financial activities and the professional and business services sectors.”
“Real estate agent Virginia Andrade said the slow market means she is looking for another job to supplement her income. ‘I had a full-time job and I left it a few months ago to do real estate full time,’ said Andrade. ‘And now, things have slowed down so I am looking around and preparing my resume.’”
From WJHG 7. “New data released today at the Tax and Budget Reform Commission shows fewer families with children are moving to Florida. And, more families with kids are leaving the state. The high cost of housing is getting the most blame.”
“Forecasters thought 48 thousand new children would enroll in Florida schools this year. October figures show just 477 did. By now, many more are expected to have left the state, making this the first time in modern history fewer kids are in school here from one year to the next.”
Is this overpriced?
see WAman’s post below…
Yes.
That house is totally overpriced. Florida is a hell hole and that house was prob. bought originally for less than 100k… A traditional mortgage application would require you to have an income of at least 140k to qualify for that mortgage. People don’t make that there.
Look at how brainwashed people are
They have lost their minds down here. now with job losses, that means more people are not going to buy these over price mansions.
south florida is toasty!
Toasty is right. The WSJ article Ben excerpted here also said that Florida can be considered the economic “canary in the coal mine.” If the housing situation causes Florida’s economy to tank, then a national recession is quite likely.
txchick57 that listing is definitely overpriced compared to where it’s going to be by next year. That’s $185/sq ft for a house built in 1988. When it hits $100 or below it’ll be priced right.
“When it hits $100 or below it’ll be priced right.”
I agree with that. Doesn’t even look like 2,100 s.f. from the photos. This place has the single advantage of privacy in the rear, relatively uncommon in Sarasota proper. But the tradeoff is a lot more crawlies to deal with.
Crawlies. Yes, I was thinking about that. Probably those gigantic tree roaches. I am frightened to death of those. You could eliminate me easily on Fear Factor by even bringing one into the room.
I do like the looks of that place though, sort of “old Florida” looking and I’m really partial to houses built at least 20 years ago. They can be updated and by that time, you can tell what the problems are.
“corners into a lush preserve” which 8/10 times is Florida code for swamp. Looks like mosquito heaven to me.
txchick57,
I’ll swing by the adress monday and take a look…I’m gonna guess it isn’t worth but maybe 180-200k. I work directly on the other side of Cattleman rd from where the house is…
Their is nothing and i freakin mean nuthin moving in this area right now…
Chris
why does a house built in 1988 need a new roof after 12 years?
A good hail storm can rip a dry wood shake roof to shreds.
“There could be more job losses to come. ‘So far, we haven’t really seen the effects of a construction collapse,’ David Denslow of the University of Florida Bureau of Business and Economic Research, said. But he’s expecting more declines, following slowdowns in the housing market and the nation’s economy at the start of the year.”
Dave Denslow was probably the best professors I have ever had — he’s a legend at UF. It good to know that he’s not a NAR-spokeman like the other UF economist (the Borat wannabe) who was discussed yesterday.
Yeah, another Gator on the blog
http://www.miamiherald.com/467/story/104380.html
“Real estate agent Virginia Andrade said the slow market means she is looking for another job to supplement her income. ‘I had a full-time job and I left it a few months ago to do real estate full time,’ said Andrade. ‘And now, things have slowed down so I am looking around and preparing my resume.’”
She left her full time job a few months ago. Where has this woman been living? Iceland? For God sakes real estate started it’s downturn way over a year ago. She certainly has her hand on the pulse of the market. Would you want her to sell you anything?
Where has this woman been living? Iceland? For God sakes real estate started it’s downturn way over a year ago. She certainly has her hand on the pulse of the market. Would you want her to sell you anything?
GW~
As the ringing refrain has been here…Real estate agents ain’t the brightest bulbs in the store.
I have a buddy that left teaching 6 months ago to go in to RE here
in Fl. He has not sold a thing, but he keeps telling me he has
some stuff he is closing on soon.
Ghostwriter, my reaction exactly. Virginia Andrade must be blind as a bat and deaf as a post.
‘And now, things have slowed down so I am looking around and preparing my resume.’”
When I started working in the REIC I noticed that most of our agents were middle-aged women. The real estate boom was a godsend for women in transition: divorced, widowed women of a certain age with no marketable skills of which to speak. They rode the money train if they got on early enough.
Not many of them had great computer skills. They were pretty close to computer illiterate. That includes the head of my dept., a V.P. who had snaked her way up the corporate ladder. (At some point each one of her staff was called in to her office to show her how to attach a file to an e-mail. There were ten of us on staff.)
It’s going to be a tough road out there for a lot of these agents who haven’t done too much in life besides sell real estate.
there is alot of them women in west boca. i can make a killing in teaching people how to use the internet!
“‘Any business that depends on housing is going to be affected by this,’ said custom homebuilder Richard Hope in Vero Beach. ‘Furniture stores and landscaping businesses have been hurt pretty badly by all this.’”
I bet, given the MEW of the past 5 - 8 years, that there are many more traditionally non-home related businesses that are going to suffer…many of those cars (& second cars), trucks, boats, jetskis, Harleys, Plasma TVs, vacations, weekly spa visits, watches/jewelry, plastic surgery/dental restoration, etc. were paid for with MEW (free/easy money) . Even without actually taking any MEW, I’d be willing to bet that there were a whole lot of folks that felt “wealthier” than they truly were and therefore opened their wallets, a bit more than usual.
“Well-known Sarasota investor Marvin Kaplan bought a four-bedroom, three-bath house on Parmeron Lane in Gladstone Park for $300,000. The builder had about $590,000 in the home, meaning Kaplan got it for about 49 percent off. Kaplan offered to buy three more at the same price but the owner turned him down.”
The builder must have had such a change of emotions last night. At first he may have felt giddy - that he could finally unload these houses. Then he probably felt sick when the price did not go over 300k.
Not as sick as Kaplan aka “Florida’s Greatest Knife Catcher”:
An estate on Sarasota Bay at 7350 Periwinkle Drive, owned by Kaplan, was listed for $3.8 million. It sold for $2.95 million in July 2005, $2.6 million in 2002 and $689,000 in 2000. It generated $2.2 million, but Kaplan declined the offer.
I’m going to have to find one of those money generators.
From the Sotheby’s auction piece:
even foreign-glitterati-power-couple types, draped in Chanel and Saville Row suits.
Ha! Weren’t those two the ones who were supposed to save the RE market? Looks like even the rich furriners are bargain hunting.
“‘A lot of (Realtor) offices were letting people go,’ Billero said.”…
You know it’s bad when you get let go from a job where the salary and benefits are zero. (does this meet the “you know you’re a six-percenter, when….criteria?)
A lot of people being let go in realty offices are support staff. Also a lot of offices pay for the advertising of listings and an agent’s E&O insurance in case anyone gets sued. So for every agent they let go they save the insurance costs. It’s cheaper to insure a few non-producting agents than many non-producing agents. The listings still stay with the company. They do not belong to the agent.
And of course cutting the non-performers means more work for those that are left.
Plus, you can rent out the back room. Case in point, Coldwell Banker in Morro Bay, CA has the back rooms rented out to some other business at $300/mo. At least, I guess they do…the rental listing finally disappeared after five months.
Do you want the new, impressive $2,760,000 listing, or can I take it? I’m salivating to be within taxi distance to the rock and the beach! -
So, if 2007 is playing the part of 1926 in this remake, will2010 play 1929?
The guy who really alerted me to (a) the coming tech stock crash in 1999, (b) the coming housing crash in 2004, and (c) the coming dollar crash in 2005 says: the Dow crash will be next year. So far, he’s been a little ahead in all his predictions. So your 2010 could be the right answer.
I like having time to prepare, but 2010? I know these things always go on longer than anyone can imagine, but prior bubbles didn’t have so many headwinds to battle.
“Forecasters thought 48 thousand new children would enroll in Florida schools this year. October figures show just 477 did. By now, many more are expected to have left the state, making this the first time in modern history fewer kids are in school here from one year to the next.”
The first sentence should have begun with “LAZY forecasters…” I’ll bet that all they did was look at building permits and construction totals, completely ignoring all speculative buying. Bet, too, that many of them included condos — not a lot of families raise their kids in condos.
Hey, give them a break - they were only off by 48,000/477 = 10,000%
I don’t know I think there might be 48,000 more mexican children here in Naples next year alone.
hey walt, the mexicans are building your homes. they are leaving as we speak. then again, they are willing to live without healthcare, pensions and a decent salary, because nafta underminded the mexican economy and they make 50 cent an hour in mexico than 5 dollars in the us. maybe if you talk to gwb about taking care of the middle class, they can stay in naples and find a real job with real benefit. naples is a waste land anyway!
since they’re gov workers they’ll get a raise
and the counties will raise taxes either way
Forecasting is really hard. The data sucks*. All market data is incomplete, inconsistent, and late (or somebody is lying about the data quality). Add in the fraud in real estate data and the forecaster is sure to be badly wrong. These forecasters probably thought that when the bank making the loan put the loan down as “owner occupied” that meant that the person buying the property was going to live in it.
*I have done market forecasts in the semiconductor industry. Even with some really good data, it was difficult. I was working for an capital equipment manufacturer and had access to manufacturing equipment purchase data that I could reconcile with the publicly available data. You could not purchase this data it was a closely held secret by my employer.
Could be, but as SFC notes, the error is on the order of 10,000%. I can’t imagine anyone being an apologist for an error that large.
I’d have to read the report. I usually try to give ranges for my estimates. And, if the forecaster was forecasting overall population, and not population growth, the relative error is much smaller.
It is different this time. Substantial changes in the housing mix and substantial fraud could have really screwed the guy up.
But, if the forecast is based on the idea that 48,000 moved in last year, therefore another 48,000 will move in this year, then the it is hard to claim it is a valid forecast. Trees do not grow to the moon.
well no, it’s not really 10,000% error. What they are really trying to do is forecast the total number of school age children. In point of fact, it’s really probably something more like they forecast 5,000,000 students and actually got 4,999,950 students. I don’t know the actual numbers but you get the point.
If you remember, the tech bubble was driven by a totally bogus forecast that internet traffic would soon be doubling every 90 days.
The company I worked for was feverishly adding people, and even paid bonuses to existing employees when they referred someone who was subsequently hired. The layoffs started about a year later. Their stock dropped to just 2% of its peak value at the low, but is now up to 16% or so of peak value. Woohoo!
Tech bubble, housing bubble, Dow bubble. What’s next?
“Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn, and cauldron bubble”….perhaps?
“‘Before, all we needed to do was put up a sign, a ‘Coming Soon’ sign, and we’d get 400 people lined up. Now you really have to build and decorate model homes,’ said David Byrnes, Orlando division president of Beazer Homes.”
Even the builders are blowing out the stagers…
Can their invasion into the murky world of sign twirling, be far behind?
These condo’s are basically duplicate, I used to own one. Can seller one really justify his price when seller two is about $75k less!
Seller One
http://homes.realtor.com/search/listingdetail.aspx?zp=34113&mnp=23&mxp=22&typ=2&sid=2f7f51e89e1d43d39f6384f2a1b8b72f&pg=4&lid=1069043184&lsn=39&srcnt=48#Detail
Paid 92k 04/2003
Seller Two
http://homes.realtor.com/search/listingdetail.aspx?zp=34113&mnp=20&mxp=19&typ=2&sid=eafd711f68d346dca71aca00882dee85&lid=1072546395&lsn=9&srcnt=23#Detail
Paid 61K 08/1997
Greedy sob’s just won’t give up will they!
Note the Waterfront Realty. I have a buddy who rented a canal house from them and they held his deposit when the multi year lease was up. He had left the country and when he got back he took them to small claims and got $2,000 back. It was held back by one of the owners. Maybe he needed the money more then my buddy.
land at 75% off
that’s all folks
more quotes from the Sotheby’s auction:
King launched into his traditional auctioneer’s rapid-fire banter. If you closed your eyes it sounded like he might have been selling mules, not estates — just like his great-grandfather did.
In the end, eight of the 22 properties being offered were sold.
Earl Niemoth summed up what might be the consensus among a real estate industry still struggling with slow sales and burgeoning inventory.
“The bottom line is that they moved some property today,” he said.
Huh? Less than 50% of the luxury properties on the block sold.
“Well-known Sarasota investor Marvin Kaplan bought a four-bedroom, three-bath house on Parmeron Lane in Gladstone Park for $300,000. The builder had about $590,000 in the home, meaning Kaplan got it for about 49 percent off. Kaplan offered to buy three more at the same price but the owner turned him down.”
This paragraph just makes no sense on multiple levels. First of all, no builder anywhere stays in business by giving houses away at cost. So either the builder had nothing close to $590,000 invested in the place to begin with, or the original listing price was much higher. Either way, he wasn’t getting a house at 49% off. My guess is that the builder had closer to the sale price of $300 grand invested in the place, if that.
Second, it really astounds me how this whole American mentality of saving by spending has pervaded real estate. Usually it’s the food ads where you can “save 99 cents/lb on steak this week” . Now we have a whole nation of housing consumers convinced that they are saving money by dropping hundreds of thousands on a depreciating asset.
That the builder lost money on that deal doesn’t surprise me at all, my guess is his loss was substantial. Builders in Florida have been taking losses on completed builds they have been carrying in order to generate cash to avoid going broke. Yes one is not in business to lose money on deals, but people do it in the stock market selling stocks for a loss and life goes on. If the builder was getting out flat, trust me he would have sold Kaplan the other three homes that Kaplan was trying to buy from him. Just an opinion, don’t know this builder.
wait till next year. so much inventory that the builders will sale at any cost to stop from going under. reality is here in florida. the denial will start in 2008. i am seeing houses under 200,000 today. once people really start seeing things, all hell is going to break out. the property taxes issue is not going save florida if we get a cat 4 or 5 this year. the state will become the only insure by then, because the govt didnt invest in infrastructural needs, they just spent money like drunken sailors. no accountability created these issues. maybe if people asked for fair insurance rates, (then again, no one wants to fight against corporations. chickenhawks.
“maybe if people asked for fair insurance rates…”
Oh please, pretty please, Mr. Insurer. LOL!
“‘The slowing market has provided an opportunity to measure and analyze current demand so that we can better align our future product offerings before moving forward with sales,’ Nick Cassala, the company’s president of Northeast/Central Florida, said in a statement.”
Translation:
“We have been unable to find enough GF’s to buy our overpriced POS condos”
“Builders in the new Sawgrass subdivision …are adding this weekend to what is already the fastest-growing segment of the housing market in Central Florida: model homes.”
“Builders have significantly cut the number of homes, condominiums and town houses they’re putting up in the region, as demand has slumped. But model homes are making a brisk comeback.”
‘Model home’: a house a builder has put up on speculation, but has not sold just yet.
Models are good for builders now. They can corral people to the sales offices and Models isolating them from the already sold homes that are now for sale by owners, banks and short sales agents. For rent homes renting for half of the PITI are a real problem for these guys so they try to hide people from the carnage.
“Anybody can go to school and get a license [to sell real estate]. There are a lot of amateurs out there who don’t know what they’re doing,” she said. Bier now works as a sales associate for Bed Bath & Beyond.”
OMG…I choked on my tea from laughing so hard.
Interesting CNN Money article.
http://finance.yahoo.com/real-estate/article/103037/Foreclosure-Bargain-Hunting
“Rising foreclosures will bring misery to many home owners - but bargain prices for some lucky home buyers.”
“If the properties sit for 90 days or more on the market, with expenses piling up, banks get very impatient… Unlike a foreclosure sale on the courthouse steps, all these homes are sold free and clear, no liens, no debt. The seller even pays for title insurance…”
That’s what happened when we bought our foreclosure. $70/sq ft in a gated golf course community by a big lake. Add in the renovation and remodeling we’ve done and our basis is about $85/sq ft.
There are so many foreclosures coming on the market that many (maybe even a majority of) buyers can find one that meets their needs.
I’d still not buy one in expectation of a quick, profitable flip. I’d also be leery of buying one at auction. Get it inspected first, as you will be buying it “as is.”
Another quote from the article.
“…many of the homes coming to auction later this year will be higher-end properties from sun-belt states where the economies are generally strong, but speculative real estate investing has dried up, such as California, Texas and Florida.”