The Correction Is In Full Swing
The Review Journal from Nevada. “Las Vegas new home sales are down 43.8 percent for the year and median prices have slipped 4.4 percent. ‘Part of the good news is prices went down,’ said Dennis Smith, president of Home Builders Research. ‘That’s odd to say that, but people have to realize they have to meet the market demand.’ Given the market conditions, it might indicate that sellers, particularly investors, are finally facing reality and pricing their homes so they’ll sell, Smith said.”
“He hopes prices continue to decline, which should in turn reduce the inventory of resale listings for the good of the housing market in the long term.”
“Kurt Lehman of Realty One Group said home prices must fall further before sales rebound, but he doesn’t know when the bottom is coming.”
“‘The number of houses selling per month is really the key to what’s happening,’ he said. ‘Still, a house that someone could buy five years ago for $175,000 now is one of thousands of average resale homes…and the asking price is $320,000 when most people can’t afford it, especially with the tightening of underwriting by most lenders. It’s going to be an economic problem until more (people) are making a lot more money and aren’t afraid of buying into what appears to be a sinking home value market.’”
“People are taking a little longer to jump into the housing market after moving here, real estate consultant Ron Rulof.”
“‘They’re still coming into town, but they see a little turmoil from what they’ve been reading so they’re sitting on the sideline,’ Rulof said. ‘What you have in a nutshell, because of market conditions, is they’re spending a little more time renting.’”
“Smith said the Las Vegas housing market fits the definition of a recession, but how long it lasts is the great unknown. ‘Six months? A year? Two or more years? Unfortunately, nobody has that answer. In our opinion, those that continue to say by early 2008 are basing it on hopes instead of facts,’ he said.”
In Business Las Vegas. “The Las Vegas housing market won’t reach its bottom until the second quarter of 2009 when it could effectively fall in excess of 20 percent, according to the latest projection from Moody’s Economy.com.”
“Earlier this year, Moody’s predicted that Las Vegas prices would fall 13 percent from its peak of $320,000.”
“The effective loss to homeowners, however, is even greater because of costs for improvements and other expenses to entice buyers, said Mark Zandi, chief economist at research firm.”
“‘I think the correction is in full swing and has a way to run,’ Zandi said. ‘Affordability is a very significant problem for first-time buyers and investors are looking to get out. Until it is affordable and those investors do leave the market, you won’t find a bottom.’”
“Zandi said homeowners are starting to realize that with the large level of inventory, they will have to cut prices if they want to sell. Las Vegas has been hurt by its large number of investors. That leads to a high vacancy rate, which creates a glut on the market.”
“‘What happens is you have a good year or two, the investors jump in and juice it up and then it’s not affordable,’ Zandi said. ‘It creates a bubble that bursts.’”
“The state reported 5,235 foreclosure filings in May, a 40 percent increase over April and five times the number reported in May 2006. In May, Nevada had 2,870 notices of default, 2,626 notices of trustee sales and 739 bank repossessions.”
“Mesquite, (NV), is about to go from a sleepy town to becoming a place on the map for retirees. Pulte Homes has kicked off sales for its 3,500-home senior community and will launch sales in 2008 for its 1,500-home traditional community.”
“Pulte expects 30 percent to 40 percent of its buyers in the senior community to be second-home buyers, many who live in Las Vegas, Salt Lake City or California. Others will choose Mesquite as their primary residence, including those who currently live in Las Vegas, Pulte officials said.”
“Economist Mark Zandi warned there are problems with swelling or unsold inventories in Las Vegas and other parts of the country and that should hamper projects like Sun City Mesquite in the first six to 12 months.”
“‘People want to come down but they can’t sell their home,’ Zandi said. ‘They don’t want to sell at a price they feel is unfair.’”
The Arizona Republic. “Despite competition from a huge number of homes for sale in the Phoenix area, real estate expert Jay Butler told Tempe business leaders Thursday that prices remain above the national average.”
“‘The market is about where it should be and people don’t like to hear that,’ the director of Realty Studies at Arizona State University said.”
“The inventory of homes for sale has climbed to about 51,000. The median price of a home in the Phoenix area used to be about 90 percent of the National Association of Realtors’ national median price, he said. Prices began rising during a hot housing market in early 2005, and over the past year and a half have settled at about $260,000. The national median is $219,000.”
“Buyers can’t afford as much because of the higher prices and because skittish lenders have been tightening their guidelines. Sellers won’t or can’t lower prices because they owe too much. And buyers are having problems selling their own homes.”
“‘The problem is a lot of people say this is a buyers market, but most buyers first have to be sellers,’ he said.”
“In Tempe, Butler said the big issue is that the houses are getting old and not necessarily being well maintained. There are many rental properties and sometimes amateur landlords let them get run down, Butler said.”
“‘I think Tempe is holding its value a lot better than other communities, but the aging of the housing stock is going to be a big issue,’ he said. ‘What concerns me more is homes not being well maintained. And there’s a certain amount of indifference.’”
From Tucson Weekly in Arizona. “Residential foreclosures are skyrocketing in Pima County, and fingers point to ARMs (adjustable-rate mortgages) as a primary culprit.”
“For the first five months of 2007, the number of ‘Notice of Trustee’s Sale’ recorded with Pima County totaled just more than 1,600, a whopping 55 percent increase from the same period a year earlier.”
“This year’s monthly totals have ranged from a low of 276 in February to 398 for May. That last figure alone is a 90 percent increase over the number just 12 months earlier.”
“While some people see opportunities to make money by cheaply buying homes facing foreclosure, on the steps of the County Courthouse a few weeks ago, more than a dozen homes were offered–but the four potential bidders in attendance quickly passed on each one of them.”
“Located along a sloping street in the prestigious Starr Pass neighborhood, a burnt tan home stands out among those around it, all of which have a light desert sand stucco finish. But the home is also different because it was in foreclosure because of a loan in excess of $400,000.”
“The growing number of foreclosures certainly isn’t restricted to Pima County. One estimate puts the nationwide jump at 25 percent just between February and March of this year.”
‘Arizonans appear content just to window shop this summer. Economists are noting a substantial slowdown in spending, particularly on home goods and automobiles, as the housing market and fuel prices remain unstable.’
window shopping is now the norm here in CT too, although every week you read about the sales and see a few knifecatchers took the dive
and as for retail here- suburban housewives still loading up their carts - amazing!
“…and as for retail here- suburban housewives still loading up their carts - amazing!”
Those women won’t stop until they’re chained up at home, their credit cards destroyed. ;o)
Hey now, I may be one of those women. FYI we don’t all use credit cards. As a matter of fact, I use my debit card for everything. As we are a family of six, we always have a cartful of things. But, we are credit free. Lay off the women — no pun intended.
Pecuniary externalities from the reverse wealth effect call into question whether subprime is contained.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pecuniary_externality
“The reverse wealth effect”, is more easily described using only two words; Wealth Destruction.
How about three words:
Negative equity vortex
oy. the use of language by these re shills: downright TORTUOUS these days. To wit:
“Several other lenders, including some of the area’s largest like SunTrust and Washington Mutual, declined to be interviewed about foreclosures, saying it has negative connotations.”
ya THINK, Skippy?
“Why, that kind of talk might even make prices SOFTEN,” says some pedigreed blowhard from the Department of Redundancy Department.
Baghdad Bobz, every one of ‘em.
The subprime meltdown is “Contained” in a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma.
The Loan Curtain
We were shopping for a couch in Tucson we had was in need of retirement. We got the sales pitch of no interest, no payments until, etc. Said I’d rather pay in full w/check. When can you deliver? Well it will be two weeks as truck is just about full(1xweek delivery in my area) each week delivering to Sahuarita,AZ. I just was checking foreclosures yesterday and there are currently 42 foreclosures in Sahuarita. Most were in the new subdivisions where furniture deliveries were going. Gotta love it. Load the place with stuff before you get foreclosed.
“One reason for the drops could be that fewer people are putting money into their homes. Furniture and housing fixtures usually are major contributors to the state’s retail sales, said Arizona State University economist Dennis Hoffman.”
“Putting money into their homes” really means, “pulling money in huge quantities out of their homes and then spending a small portion of it to fix up their homes.” This guy is an economist? This would be a good weekend topic. How many professions have destroyed themselves during the Great Housing Mania?
Here’s my short list. Who did I miss?
Mortgage Brokers
Real Estate Agents
Economists
Bond Rating Agencies
Investment Bankers
Pension Fund Managers
appraisers
Federal Reserve.
Their credibility is destroyed. The Federal government is like God, no beginning and no end.
Just wait until it becomes fully evident that money does not grow on trees. So far, the illusion is largely intact.
Flippers
The HEmLOCk party is over. It’s time to face the Grim Reaper
“‘What happens is you have a good year or two, the investors jump in and juice it up and then it’s not affordable,’ Zandi said. ‘It creates a bubble that bursts.’”
I know a guy who’s tough but Moody’s on the street
His opinions are so fine, he can’t be beat
He’s got everything a doomer and gloomer could desire
Sets the summer sun on fire
I quote Zandi, I quote Zandi
People want to come down but they can’t sell their home,’ Zandi said. ‘They don’t want to sell at a price they feel is unfair.’”
Mr. Zandi must be friends with that idiot lady in Reno who didn’t feel it was fair that she can’t get HER PRICE because the builders built too many houses and now she can’t unload her white elephant at the top of the market. BUT DAMMIT, I”M NOT GIBIN’ MAYER’ HOUSE AWAY! I WAN”T THAT 2005 PRICE, AND WAITIN’ TIL I ER’ GET IT.
Just wait until they see the definition of “fair” in 2009. They will realize that “fair”, like “debt” is a 4-letter word.
Most people don’t realize that something that is “fair” is never defined through only one perspective.
Crazy Credit - you must be observing them Stepford Wives. Don’t worry, they aren’t real.
Anyone catch the 20/20 special last night on housing? Mostly crap. Still won’t tell it like it is.
Yep, we gave it a bit of a working-over in the bits bucket thread. However, I think they did tell it like it is in the KB Home story on the buried bombs. Whew! I am surprised ANYONE has ANY confidence in the HBs these days.
BTW, I am now watching all the building going on around here against the background of the Bear Stearns fiasco. OK, so first we have the subprime implosions of NEW, etc. Then, Bear Stearns et al. This fall, the tsunami of mortgage re-sets. And that’s when a lot of this new development will be coming on line. I mean, at some point, I don’t think even Revlon or Max Factor will have enough lipstick for this pig.
Does anyone think it’s possible that MAYBE those mortgage re-sets will NOT take place?
I don’t know palmetto. We live in one of the higher-end towns where the average keeps slipping but still hovering around 600K. I am seeing homes sitting on the market over 200 days and prices dropping 100K is not that unusual anymore. You would be shocked at the amount of building that is going on here. It used to be a tight housing market when I moved here 2 years ago. Now I am seeing two pages of rentals of those 750K just built homes — average about 2400 a month in rent. And still they build. They have two huge subdivisions breaking ground. And are hoping to annex some land this year.
I say BUILD ON. Prices have only one way to go and that is down. We are past the affordabilty factor here in a huge way. It’s like buyers woke up at the same time. The sellers, for the large part, are still dreaming.
By the way, these new two story homes are over 3000 sq. ft on 6-8 thousand sq. ft. lots, with about a two feet between and while very nice, are no more than tract homes. They started out last year at 1 million. I am seeing them on Zip the lowest being about 640K. Not to be compared with the 1.1 acre 4/2 mess currently dropped another 25K to 575K within a mile. I would rather have the acre.
Recently surfing, I saw a 700 s.f., 1/1, old apartment in Coral Gables, Florida asking $800K. Near by was a 2/2 for 200K — still a ridiculous amount for an old apartment which probably sold for 50K five years ago.
It’s all very crasy here in Florida lately.
Still, a house that someone could buy five years ago for $175,000 now is one of thousands of average resale homes…and the asking price is $320,000 when most people can’t afford it, especially with the tightening of underwriting by most lenders.”
Prices need to real tank in Vegas.
Who are the stupid dolts buying anywhere near these dumb prices???
I thought we flushed these turds down the toilet already?
Nah, prices have been really sticky in LV. I keep a close watch of the listings on craigslist as well as the local paper (I’m not in RE, just would like to buy a house here in town) and the 5k-10k “reductions” I’ve seen are pathetic. They can choke on their poor investment if they like and I’ll pick it up from the bank at a real discount in a couple of years.
Fall ‘07 is when it all becomes reality, in my opinion. Let’s see what we are talking about in December. If it’s the same story then I would think something is amiss. Who is going to lower by a large amount when they still think they are in peak selling season. Once they see the kiddies lined up at the bus stop then the FBs will realize that even the short bus has passed them by.
I think you are right. The reality will be setting in during the weeks before school starts and their are no buyers.
Also, Some of the builders have begun to drop prices through big incentives. Example: 18 months ago, 2900 sq ft, no incentives, bidding on lots, 390K. Today, same development, 2900 sq ft, 55K in incentives, 3% in closing costs, 390K.
In Business Las Vegas. “The Las Vegas housing market won’t reach its bottom until the second quarter of 2009 when it could effectively fall in excess of 20 percent, according to the latest projection from Moody’s Economy.com.”
The same experts who missed the “top of the bubble” now have great insight as to what is happening in Las Vegas real estate. They were wrong 2 years ago, and they are wrong now.
Bear with me, please. There are $30 Billion dollars of hotel and mixed use projects actually being built as on June 2007.
All the pie-in-the-sky talk is gone. These projects are actully being built.
There are hi rise cranes everywhere on the strip.
The MEDIAN price for Las Vegas homes is really worthless as far as house values. Newer year built homes (2000-2006) in close in locations to the strip (Location, Location, Location) are holding their values. It’s the houses 20, 30, 40 miles from the employment on the strip that are bringing the median price down. Gas prices are high, and drive times are horrible.
The $30 billion in new Strip construction means well located homes will not drop anywhere near what the “gurus” are predicting. The median is not a good indicator for Vegas.
How much does it cost to cool a 2,500 square foot house in Vegas? I would imagine the AC bills have to be huge.
I’ve got a 1700 sq. ft. home built in 2001, double pane windows, etc. Last year, July and August were about $360 each month. And that was with keeping the thermostat at 84 degrees. I can’t imagine the cost if I really wanted “cool”. This year rates went up 12% on the 1st of June, so those costs should be close to $400 a month at the same temp setting.
I think they can get away with using swamp coolers instead of ac units in Vegas.
“I think they can get away with using swamp coolers instead of ac units in Vegas.”
Swamp coolers are LAME. you know what your house feels like with a swamp cooler? You guessed it… A friggin’ SWAMP.
Rant off
SteveR,
That $360 per month A/C is very steep for those hot 5 months. I don’t think I can handle it! I think I will buy a 1200 square foot box on the beach for $1.5 million so that I don’t have to pay $360 per month for 5 months for A/C!
I’m being facetious, but I’m still laughing at the financial geniuses who would prefer to pay ten times the housing costs of desert areas just to avoid having to spend 4 minutes per day in hot temperatures. These same people laugh at dolts who buy RE at the top.
I now realise that you don’t really need to an Ivy League economics degree or MBA to be an “expert economist/analyst” these days, although investment houses always state it as a requirement. But one thing you must have otherwise you stand no chance of being taken on:
An unparalleled degree of wishful thinking.
Las Vegas will be a goast town when oil hits $100 a barrel. Location won’t mean anything because the location of Las Vegas itself is non-sustainable.
Now you’re hitting it on the head, Chuck T. Everything here in Las Vegas has to be shipped in or flown in — including the tourists. When that cost becomes prohibitive, Las Vegas will experience a greater economic dip than most locales.
This is also a place that depends on disposable income. As the heating bills grow more ridiculous and food inflation becomes even worse, that’s going to cut badly into disposable income. It’s not going to happen overnight, but it will be a gradual erosion — an equal-but-opposite reaction, in lock-step with inflation.
Judge Smails: You’ll get nothing, and like it.
They can choke on their poor investment if they like and I’ll pick it up from the bank at a real discount in a couple of years.
I doubt that you would even want to buy in a couple of years when prices drop, by that time the neighborhood will be destroyed and not worth living in.
“There are many rental properties and sometimes amateur landlords let them get run down ”
now thats what happened to certain HBB blogger i know named me. there should be a law against this and renters should have a tax break bigger than 60 bucks.
‘They don’t want to sell at a price they feel is unfair.’”
when wcom went belly up, that was not fair. step up and take your losses. and hurry up im getting crabby.
This dates back to times when tenants were considered “renter scum”, and owners smart responsible investors. These days the AMT is slowly killing the owners advantage however, as high tax brackets affect more and more each year and the tax points are not increased to keep pace with inflation. Sort of a sneaky tax increase you never really notice.
More from Las Vegas
‘A record 23,042 single-family homes were available last month or 20.4 percent more than in 2006. And about 55 percent of those homes are vacant resulting in an estimated 6,000 to 7,000 units worth of rentals.’
‘The market is a little soft with single family homes being rented-out until they are sold,’ said Spencer Ballif, senior vice president of CB Richard Ellis’ Multifamily Division. ‘It’s giving us about a year’s worth of apartment supply that will likely disappear by the second quarter of 2008. It’s just a temporary thing.’
‘It’s just a temporary thing.’
Like death and taxes.
“And about 55 percent of those homes are vacant resulting in an estimated 6,000 to 7,000 units worth of rentals.”
Does Las Vegas ever attract any seedy people that might squat in these homes and turn them into a blight on the neighborhood?
I like Las Vegas. I enjoy the dry desert heat. I love all the lights at night. However, the economy is a two trick pony, construction and gaming. If either one or both of those sectors falter the place takes a dive.
Ben, just got back from Vegas (June 22). The strip is bustling with hotels and mixed use projects. $30 Billion in actual construction. I predict well located homes close to the strip will
NOT fall any where near what is predicted. Employment is still very strong in Vegas, Hotels were full, and MEDIAN price indicators are useless.]
Remeber, Location, Location, Location.
You gotta be kidding right? It doesn’t matter what the unemployment rate is - affordability is the name of the game. I would bet that 75% of the casino/hotel employees make less than $40K/yr.
I would bet that 75% of the casino/hotel employees make less than $40K/yr.
I think it might be higher than that. I’ve heard it said many times that people parking cars can make $60k and dealers in the nice casinos can see close to six-figures.
I guess it depends on how you slice and dice it.
Yeah, temporary, like life!!
can we have a nice gold clap for zandi telling the truth and making these idiots look like idiots?
‘Part of the good news is prices went down,’
Is this really “good news” for the folks who bought in late 2005, early 2006?
“Is this really “good news” for the folks who bought in late 2005, early 2006?”
Or for the folks who bought earlier and “liberated” their home equity based on peak values.
Actually wouldn’t 55% of 23K be more in the neighborhood of 12K? Just curious if someone couldn’t do some remedial math, or maybe I am reading this wrong this morning?
Actually wouldn’t 55% of 23K be more in the neighborhood of 12K? Just curious if someone couldn’t do some remedial math, or maybe I am reading this wrong this morning?
I looked at that, and I think by the wording, they left out a step on the math.
‘…resulting in an estimated 6,000 to 7,000 units worth of rentals.’
So, not all the vacant units automatically turned into rentals.
“Earlier this year, Moody’s predicted that Las Vegas prices would fall 13 percent from its peak of $320,000.”
I suspect prices in Vegas are already down an average of 10% or more. I wonder what solid mathematical and scientific principals were applied to arrive at such an accurate and specific number as 13%. Generally when an odd number like this is presented as opposed to saying about 15% the number is made up and sugar coated to sound accurate. There is no way prices in Vegas stay anywhere close to current levels. There simply is not the income there to support it, and I suspect sub-prime played a much bigger role in vegas than say in San Diego, where Alt-A ruled supreme.
I think part of the reason for using these odd numbers is to provide some authenticity and authority to their powers of clairvoyance.
Got 10% down?
…I suspect sub-prime played a much bigger role in vegas than say in San Diego, where Alt-A ruled supreme.
I have to agree with this. I’ve lived in LA, San Diego, Tucson and now Las Vegas, and I’ve never seen as much go-go, wannabe jet-setting posing than in this town. It’s just an accepted part of the culture.
Why would real estate be any different?
“Residential foreclosures are skyrocketing in Pima County, and fingers point to ARMs (adjustable-rate mortgages) as a primary culprit.”
What about home prices??!! If you had an adjustable mortgage in a home you could really afford, there wouldn’t be a problem.
When will someone just call a spade a spade?? Home prices cannot stay at these levels, unless we want all future buyers to be stuck with suicide financing as well.
Right , now only does Las Vegas not have enough buyers who can qualify they do not have enough demand for these homes right now .
When is the MSM going to admit that the builders were building for speculators with no thought about long term end-user demand .Everybody selling now is looking for those qualified end-users and they are in short supply . The realtors can no longer sell based on appreciation in a declining market ,so, I suppose it will be ,”Get in now before the interest rates go up .”
“‘The problem is a lot of people say this is a buyers market, but most buyers first have to be sellers,’ he said.”
The quote captures the essense of the problem in most areas: there is simply more housing than needed. Musical chairs in reverse, when everyone sits down there are still going to be empty chairs.
Right now, interest rates are the least of their worries. This market has been driven by “stated income” loans for several years. These loans are still available if you have a few percent down and a high credit score, but I doubt many qualify under these terms either.
When will someone just call a spade a spade?? Home prices cannot stay at these levels, unless we want all future buyers to be stuck with suicide financing as well.
That is so succinct. It’s been said here so many times, but it still hasn’t filtered out to the general consciousness.
Just visited a friend in Vegas. She was a real estate agent until March. She had made $0 from Nov-Feb. Her main agent (she was still an assistant) currently has 14 listings, every one a short sale.