Florida Housing In The Doldrums Now
The News Press reports from Florida. “Real estate inventory in Southwest Florida remains high. So does the grass at some residential listings. Upkeep of unoccupied new and old construction is fading. Once pristine properties are now unkempt, deprived of necessary attention because of absentee or inattentive owners. ‘It’s becoming an eyesore to the already complicated market,’ said John McWilliams, broker in Fort Myers.”
“‘It’s the kiss of death because there are so many homes for sale,’ said Judy Ramage, broker associate in Cape Coral. Slow sales and home foreclosures have resulted in residences that sit vacant for months, maybe a year.”
“Though Realtors said unsightly properties are common in outlying parts, such as Lehigh Acres, many areas have been affected. On a recent weekday morning, three of five homes for sale along Kismet Parkway in Cape Coral…had overgrown lawns. All of the properties had signs on the front lawn to display brokerage or builder names, and four homes were new construction.”
“According to the National Association of Homebuilders, as many as 1.4 million new housing units are sitting vacant, an all-time high.”
“Some builders and brokers, whose contact information is given on signage, are not tending the crop. Weeds taller than the roadside mailbox sprouted on the overgrown lawn at a new home on Northeast 24th Avenue in Cape Coral. Telephone calls to the real estate company’s number on the sign out front resulted in a message stating the number was no longer in service.”
“Homeowners in dire financial straits skimp on upkeep of the dwelling’s interior and amenities, notably the swimming pool. ‘If they’re getting foreclosed on, they tend to let the property go down the tube,’ McWilliams said. ‘If they’re in the final stages, they cut off the AC. There’s a risk issue.’”
“Real estate experts said these listings, especially older homes, show poorly and will not move as quickly as those that are maintained. ‘It hurts the homeowner,’ McWilliams said. ‘It gives the buyer the impression that they’re in trouble. The buyer wants to buy at or below the market value.’”
The St Petersburg Times. “Almost everyone’s heard about the pain the crumbling housing market has inflicted on building trades, real estate agents and mortgage lenders. But the tremors have cascaded from the inner circle to more distant, but related, industries.”
“Think furniture stores, appliance dealers, pickup sellers, even the CSX trains that lug lumber to Tampa to build homes.”
“‘It’s weighing down the economy and it’s shaved growth off. There’s no doubt about that,’ said Sean Snaith, a University of Central Florida economist.”
“Jeff Bloom’s family has run Ethan Allen furniture stores in and around Tampa since 1967. Since late last year, customers just aren’t coming through the doors at his design centers in Tampa, Citrus Park and Brandon. ‘We have to wait and see when housing’s coming back before we can justify building,’ said. ‘This is as rough as we’ve seen it in many, many years.’”
“Home Depot named Florida as a sore spot. Sears cited a dip in demand for appliances. Wal-Mart delayed construction of a supercenter in Dade City, citing lack of ‘maturation’ in a housing market turned south.”
“When St. Petersburg builder Construction Compliance Inc. filed for bankruptcy this year, one of the first things seized was its pickups. Tom Castriota, owner of Castriota Chevrolet in Hudson, has noted the same phenomenon in Pasco County: a glut of pickups for sale on U.S. 19 from idled plumbers and other tradesmen.”
“Even the car company with the hottest hand, Toyota, isn’t moving as many Tundra pickups as it would like. ‘What I’ve heard industry-wise is that Florida and California are taking the hit,’ Castriota said.”
The Herald Tribune. “The downturn in residential real estate and home building has caused a sharp rise in Southwest Florida unemployment.”
“‘Clearly there has been a deterioration in the labor market since last year,’ said David Denslow, research economist for the University of Florida’s Bureau of Economic and Business Research. ‘It is due to the housing downturn.’”
“Paul Kasriel, chief economist for Northern Trust in Chicago, believes Florida’s all-important tourism and boatmaking industries will also be hit because people across the country can no longer tap into rising equity in their homes.”
“Now that the housing sector is in recession, there is no question it will spill over to other sectors. Construction workers won’t make as many trips to Wal-Mart, and Wal-Mart won’t order as many goods. Eventually it works its way through the entire economy,’ he said.”
“‘We’re seeing a general slowing in financial services and retailing,’ said Mark Vitner, an economist with Wachovia Bank. ‘Fewer people are moving to Florida.’”
The Palm Beach Post. “Jobless rates spiked in June in Palm Beach County and the Treasure Coast, hitting their highest point in two years.”
“One culprit: Layoffs in the housing sector. In one example of that trend, DiVosta Building Corp. has laid off 430 workers in Palm Beach Gardens since December.”
“The state’s construction industry shed 18,000 jobs over the past year, state officials said, marking the first time since 1992 that the state has experienced four consecutive months of year-over-year declines in construction jobs.”
The Naples News. “Jim Lowndes likens it to driving off a cliff. After establishing Liberty Aluminum in 1993 and growing it to 105 employees by the end of 2006, he had to lay off 60 workers in early 2007. He’s been able to hire back 10 of them, but business is still down 60 percent from where it was a year ago.”
“‘We don’t see any improvement in the residential screen enclosure market for at least another year,’ Lowndes said. ‘Business is down 90 percent for some people.’”
“It’s something Sand Springs Development President Dennis Cantwell sees every day.”
“‘Everybody I talk to is laying off somebody in (residential) construction and I think it’s resulting in a trickle-down effect,’ said Cantwell. ‘It’s not only construction; people no longer have the grass cut or pool cleaned, and they don’t need day care because they’re staying home with the kids now. It’s going to blow through the whole system. Some people aren’t even going out for dinner anymore.’”
“Lee County’s unemployment rate grew to 4.2 percent in June as the construction jobs dropped and school district contract workers officially went off the rolls for summer. That rate is sharply up from the 3.1 percent jobless rate in June 2006.”
“Construction companies, particularly those who specialize in homes, continue to trim jobs, said Barbara Hartman, spokeswoman for the Career and Service Center in Fort Myers. The sector that includes construction lost about 800 jobs from a year ago, when home construction was more active.”
“David Atyeo of Fort Myers, lost his job at a local construction supply company this month because business has been slow. ‘I’ve tried to get work in construction, but those jobs just aren’t there right now,’ Atyeo said. ‘It’s been a couple of years since it has been this hard to get work in construction.’”
“‘We’ve begun to see construction employment begin to finally drop … at fairly substantial rates,’ said Frank Williams, a legislative economic analyst.”
“Brace yourselves. Sometime in the next two months, more road projects may be axed from the county’s road building budget.”
“Earlier this year, Pasco cut projects in 22 locations countywide, worth $950-million, from its five-year roadbuilding budget for 2008 through 2012.”
“The first round of cuts was based on planners’ calculations that assumed 5,000 building permits for 2007. Even when they made that forecast back in April, county officials knew they were being a tad optimistic.”
“‘If they don’t go right, they’re going to have to come back and readjust the budget,’ county Commissioner Ted Schrader said at the time.”
“County planners now believe they’re on track for just over half of that projection: 2,600.”
“‘We have enough money to get us through ‘08 and probably ‘09,’ said Michele Baker, Pasco’s chief assistant county administrator.. But the budget is for five years, so common sense tells planners to prepare themselves.”
“Only 1,118 single-family permits were issued between January and June this year, compared to 3,488 in the same period last year, according to Pasco’s central permitting division and the U.S. Census Bureau. June saw 189 permits issued, compared to 473 last year.”
“While supply appears to be stabilizing, real estate broker Natalie Feldman said price stabilization hasn’t yet but should catch up.”
“That’s not quite the same note of enthusiasm that was in a July 17 memo Baker wrote when she prepared for negotiations on the Wiregrass Ranch development. ‘The revenue estimates for (the next four years) will likely have to be revised downward and additional projects will have to be delayed,’ she said.”
“In Round One, the axed projects included some that were near and dear to planners’ hearts. As far as Round Two goes, there’s no hint yet of what might get cut. ‘I don’t know,’ Baker said. ‘That’s the hard part.’”
The News Journal. “Integra Land Co. has set out to saturate the Volusia-Flagler market with as many Class A rental units as possible. Lake Mary-based Integra wants to put 288 units in Daytona Beach, 277 units in Orange City and 482 units in Palm Coast, at prices ranging from $800 to $1,300 a month.”
“But the big questions are whether or not the market can withstand all the new apartments, and just who are these guys?”
“David McDaniel said, ‘By the time we start leasing in 2008, I believe the moderation in leasing currently in the market place will be abated.’”
The Star Banner. “Jumping into the housing construction business these days is like diving into a swimming pool, with no water. The market just isn’t there. But North Carolina-based Beckwith Homes is donning swimming trunks and heading toward the diving board, anyway.”
“Beckwith is betting that small, nimble builders can still do well in the Marion County housing market, despite the wailing and gnashing of teeth by large developers that are sitting atop big inventories they can’t unload.”
“Big builders that traded on Wall Street had the added pressure of making investors happy, said Beckwith’s division president, Cheri Bass, who has worked in the housing business for more than 10 years.”
“‘I’m not trying to get the whole piece of the pie,’ Bass said. ‘Just a little sliver.’”
“The companies built as much as they could when the market demanded more homes, regardless whether they could sell them fast enough, said Sean Snaith, director of the Institute for Economic Competitiveness at the University of Central Florida. ‘They had quarterly numbers they had to hit,’ he said.”
“‘It’s in the doldrums now,’ Snaith said of the housing market. ‘But the reality is the housing market wasn’t a bubble. There was a real demand and a demand is still there.’”
This would be a good time for all those Florida economists to jump in (again) and remind us that housing can’t go down without a recession.
And is anyone saying a 1,000 people a day are moving there anymore?
And this pin-head Snaith has been one of the most vocal, ‘its a very minor correction’, dolts as recently as a couple of weeks ago. Economist my @ss- the only thing this dullard is qualified to teach is Home Economics. Glad that neither of my kids attends UCF. Stevie Wonder could see this housing bust coming, but the brainiac Economist at UCF couldn’t? Remarkable…
Check out this dolt, quote from the following news story:
http://www.local10.com/news/13721122/detail.html
“Shuffield said he’s convinced the slow down is only temporary. He said Miami is still a hot spot for prospective buyers across the country and globe.”
At least someone still thinks Miami is still a “hot spot.”
Miami sucks. It was bad in 1998 and certainly not any more desirable now. Only kool aid drinkers live in Miami which will be underwater when sea levels rise.
“Fewer people are moving to Florida.”
Umm, correction Mark, “More people are leaving Florida.”
Anyone have updated stats? I’m thinking the first big eye opener will be back to school registrations… a big drop in kids is my prediction.
I’m thinking until then the last bit of denial can survive in Florida. Then… they will be the first to implode.
Got popcorn?
Neil
No updated stats, but I do know that for the first time in many years, all Florida school districts will resume classes on the same day August, 20th. All districts should be figuring it out at about the same time.
August 20th… we have our D-day. H-hour is what, 9am?
Got state revenue?
Neil
I watch the local PBS Friday evening political punditry program in the Tampa Bay area. It is almost always interesting, even when the panelists (who are usually local activists, members of local media, politicians or political consultants) make some really boneheaded statements, because that in itself is interesting. This past Friday evening, one of them made the usual statement about how much Florida is growing because of all the people moving here. It was in the context of Florida’s political parties moving up their primaries and the tussles they are having with the national parties over this issue. But still, this is what the local media and the politicians are spouting, even now. It just shows how out of touch they are. In fact, the entire program was like listening to people in some alternate universe.
Wait a minute, I thought people who appeared on PBS shows were smart.
This is NOT a bubble? LOL!! I’m glad I didn’t go to school there, either.
Damn it, Neil. I don’t have popcorn! I can’t eat it because I’m still in braces! Anything else you like besides poporn? Please?! I’m tired of you swinging that bucket by my face every time it goes around!
A Very Hungry Vegan
Ummm…
Got carrots? Just doesn’t have the same ring.
MMMMMM - CARAMEl popcorn (sorry).
Got applesauce?
Ben,
Yes, they are still saying it. I was walking through a home last weekend and the RE agent showing the property was sure to point that out to me (that 1000 people a day move here). I actually could not contain myself and laughed out loud when she said it.
She appeared a bit hurt by my unwillingness to believe her BS; but come on. That’s like saying the earth is flat lady; grow the he** up and stop living your life by slogans.
The market is crashing, and will continue to crash for the foreseeable future. I am looking to buy; but have hard and fast limits; I will not pay more then 150/sq/ft, and don’t want a 3000 sq/ft home (more like 2-2.5K). So that means I am looking to spend right around 300K; which is less then 2X my HH income; insulating me from any downturns from where I buy (because I will easily be able to afford the home). However, homes are still 200-300 sq/ft in the areas I am looking; FAR too high for what they offer, and for what the replacement costs would be!
Kinda off topic, but I noticed Blackstone (BX), the private equity company, is off from their IPO price of $31. The stock is languishing around $26 and falling. So much for that plan.
If 1,000 people a day are moving here, then 2,000 people a day are moving out.
Suckers!
Tom
It’s only slightly OT. The same investors who buy junk mortgage debt also buy junk LBO debt. Housing problems have hammered those guys so hard that they are not willing to stick their reproductive equipment into the power outlet anymore.
I wish they would put them back into the power outlet. We don’t need any more suckers being born.
Dude if you live in south FL you can get a house for $150/foot at todays still inflated prices. Why are you even looking to buy now? Wait till 2010 or later. Go rent now.
More people are leaving than comming and for good reason. I can name many other places id rather be. The mountains is a great option
Hammer: Florida folks, land of perpetual sunshine. Let’s get the auction started before we have a tornado.
Too bad I sunburn easily. Give me temperate or mountain weather. Moving up north
“Now that the housing sector is in recession, there is no question it will spill over to other sectors. Construction workers won’t make as many trips to Wal-Mart, and Wal-Mart won’t order as many goods. Eventually it works its way through the entire economy,’ he said.”
- Can someone make all of the Californina Experts read the above statement? They seem to think that employment is growing and there will be no long term pain here. Everybody makes 60k a year!Great time to buy!
Even if every Californian was making 60k a year the real estate market would be way too high. You could say the same about Florida. There is still a long way for these places to drop. They are going to enter some dark places in the coming years. Cool.
To expand,
The California median wage, last I looked, was just below 60k. So that isn’t too bad of an estimate. With a 2nd income, that makes a 250k or maybe even a 300k home affordable. (I assume the 2nd income is less than the 1st).
Yea… we have a *long* way to go. FL and CA will tighten credit for the whole nation. I think FL already has had the wheels come off. They’re wobbly here in Cali with one of the real dullies from each side having gone into the brush (Sac, San Diego). But when one of the front wheels goes… It will be like the car we saw yesterday. Two teenagers in a single car crash into the center median on a surface street. Somehow triggered both airbags in a 35 mph zone despite obvious braking attempts. oops! Except California is the big 2500HD dullie towing a big old horse trailer dull of Clydesdales that will break through the center divide of the 405.
Got popcorn?
Neil
I believe it is total median household income that is slightly below $60k ($54k?) not the median wage.
You know what…
Your right. Oops.
So knock down my home prices by 25% to 33%.
And I thought it was up to 55.4k. You know that extra $100/month makes all the difference.
Got popcorn?
Neil
Probably go head to head with a couple of Lincon navigators too.
Working in the real estate development industry, I d believe that we are in store for a major correction in our home proces in southern california. There are some differences with florida in that we have growth from international trade, high tech and entertainment. Also our massive influx of illegal immigrants has some stimulative impacts economically. Our economy is more diverse than florida but we do have a big issue with affordability, income vs. house prices. Moving forward, builders will create low cost entree level housing and the high end will continue to be strong. The middle $300 to 700K will deflate for a couple of years at least and not recover to 1996 prices for a long time.
For the 1000 moving to FL each day, they aren’t tellling you about the 2000 per day leaving.
Money source cut off means people stop spending on everything else. And this is a big surprise? Nobody on this blog thought of that? Now did we?
Somebody do a truck rental quote coming/going to Fla, like
Ft Lauderdale to Raleigh
Raleigh to Ft Lauderdale
One way fares…
That should divulge much
26-foot Penske rental quotes:
Raleigh to Tampa : $251
Tampa to raleigh : $872
So…
3.5x as many people are leaving, vs. coming.
Ft. Lauderdale to Raleigh is $1340, the reverse is $121. Unbelievable. This is worse than Portland/Santa Clara ($1061/$305) which is a SHORTER distance (650 miles vs 780 miles).
So the exodus from Florida is probably worse than from CA.
“Remain calm…” not “Stay calm…”
Damn, I’m still not used to my new alias. Need a coffee.
(formerley PDXrenter)
Wow~ 11 to 1 ratio of leavers, vs comers…
Ft Lauderdale to Raleigh
UHaul:
Norfolk, VA to Raleigh, NC = $423
Raleigh, NC to Norfolk, VA = $146
Good thing there are so many high end condo projects under way right now, because Norfolk with a median household income of something like $44K a year needs tons of $300K studios, and $700K 3 bedroom condos.
Depends what you mean by “underway” the new Spectrum luxury condos at the end of Willoughby Spit in Norfolk have ground to a halt. All they have is the foundation of one condo and nobody has touched it in months
http://www.norfolkspectrum.com/
Granby Tower just started construction with a $20 million chunk from the City of Norfolk (Taxpayers help fund a tower for the rich to look down on them from). Harbor Heights is nearing completion. The Barr company is finishing up something at Duke and Brambleton… lots of stuff coming under way. Being in tech, I’ve got the dream job… finally away from gov’t contractors. I do know however, that the majority of the jobs that pay anything in tech sectors are generally directly related to gov’t spending (gov’t contractors). So once (if) there are cutbacks in gov’t spending, watch out Southeastern Virginia. There isn’t much to fall back on. The new highly touted shipping port uses machine vision or other systems to automate the facility and run it with a limited number of people. Ford plant is gone. Symmantec is gone.
Don’t forget that more people leave Florida feet first. Our per capita death rate is the highest in the nation.
God’s waiting room.
Wow I didnt know those stats! But put me on the list. Maybe my bro, sis and parents will leave too. I am trying to get my parents to come with me but parents are still drinking the Florida kool aid
But I thought housing had nothing to do with the economy as a whole? But the talking heads and experts on television kept telling us that the economy is so strong that a decline in housing wouldn’t hurt it? But. But. What is happening? How could this be?
It’s about f’ing time reality is acknowledged by economists in the media. I don’t understand why they can only see it when it smacks them in the face. I realize most of the people in the country and world aren’t that bright when it comes to thinking outside of their own little reality, but you would think more economists would have seen this coming…
I told a lot of people at work that we would surely have a nationwide recession and they better prepare for it. You can bet that this tsunami is headed up this way. I hope I’m prepared. I am sure that they are not.
Last night at a birthday dinner (for four of us born close together in July), I was chatting and mentioned how I think homes will drop 30% to 50%+ in southern California… Of course everyone said no.
So I menioned CDO’s, CMBS, etc. No joy. I mentioned home prices in Palos Verdes dropping 40% last time… they didn’t think it would happen. I finally said “If I’m wrong, its ok. My industry has been priced out of other markets before.
Then I mentioned the 11.4X income we peaked at (for home prices). How no city has ever reached that level before…
Unprepared. At least the guy is trying to get a stable job. (He was laid off from Ameriquest, now is at another RE related, but is trying to get into a more stable field.)
And CA won’t have it half as bad as Florida (sub-prime meltdown or not). You see… I think at about a 50% drop we’ll generate enough jobs to halt the decline.
Got popcorn?
Neil
Neil, I could not think of worse conversation at a birthday party. You must have been a big hit. I am sure next year you will be eating popcorn by yourself.
Thanks, Ms. Manners
And birthday cake alone.
He is always welcome to my “bye FL” party
Got cake?
The key economic number is negative 1.4% household savings. That number averaged positive 10% over many decades. My personal savings rate is over 20% and that’s probably true for many of you as well. For every person like us, there are several who are spending every penny them make and a lot more - totally dependent on credit.
As the credit is cut off, the savings rate will have to go back to positive. Most of us won’t change our saving habits and so even if the sheeple save nothing, the total will still be greater than zero. That has profound implications for the economy.
Consumer spending = 70% of US GDP. If savings goes from -1.4% to +5.0%, spending will have to fall by a corresponding amount. -6.4% swing in spending * 70% = 4.5% hit to GDP. If we go back to the long-term 10% average, GDP will have to shrink by 8%.
That’s one heck of an adjustment, definitely triggering a deep recession in even the best case. In the worst case, we are likely to see outright depression. But it’s necessary to bring the economy back to a sustainable basis instead of hocking the kids to pay for current consumption.
“As the credit is cut off, the savings rate will have to go back to positive. Most of us won’t change our saving habits and so even if the sheeple save nothing, the total will still be greater than zero. That has profound implications for the economy.”
Most of us will change our savings habit - we’ll be out of work. Money doesn’t exist until it is borrowed (credit) into existence. One can’t save what doesn’t exist because it isn’t being created (borrowed into existence).
There’s a reason the real estate bubble was facilitated by any and all, at all costs, perpetuated by lies and fraud, while those who know better averted their eyes and either kept their mouths shut or lied too. You really think those ‘in charge,’ ‘those supposedly in the know’ had no idea what the repercussions would be once this thing really blows?
They know! They’re liars not idiots! And why would they lie? Why wouldn’t they stop it?
Because once it’s game over for real estate, it’s game over for the economy, the credit (monetary) system, and life as we knew it.
We aren’t looking at a depression - what we face is much, much worse.
Because once it’s game over for real estate, it’s game over for the economy, the credit (monetary) system, and life as we knew it.
We aren’t looking at a depression - what we face is much, much worse.
Probably true. So it’s a good thing you can buy “chaos insurance”.
You’re right crisrose. What we’ll be facing is far worse. It’s called revolution in the streets. Got Kevlar?
– Judge Smales
“You’ll get nothing and like it”
I think that is a little too far. People just won’t borrow, the materialistic women and men will try to move on and switch to the next big get rich quick thing. There is still a very large percentage of properties owned outright.
And there are new things happening. New companies, new technologies. Sure, real estate got all the attention for a while. Lots of people will be foreclosed on, go back to renting.
From what I’ve read, the investors now want to start an apartment building boom. Houses are old, apartments are supposidly going to go crazy in rents so they want to build more (seriously, there are a few quotes, and I know there is a list of new apartment projects lining up for good ol Norfolk VA).
Some people will loose, but when they are financed 0% down, do they really loose much? And there are those of us that will start looking.
you are wrong to save unless you buy gold. the dollar will be cheaper than toilet paper soon.
Since when are economists smart? Everything is fine. To say differant you are negative and that is not the American dream. Well the public is starting to see this so called American dream, everyone rich by “credit” was just one big scam by the lenders who all earned their fees etc. It is wonderful seeing how one Wall St. gang going after another gang on Wall St. God, I wish I was a lawyer wearing black lizard shoes at $200.00 a pair. The fun starts now!
‘‘Everybody I talk to is laying off somebody in (residential) construction and I think it’s resulting in a trickle-down effect,’ said Cantwell. ‘It’s not only construction; people no longer have the grass cut or pool cleaned, and they don’t need day care because they’re staying home with the kids now. It’s going to blow through the whole system. Some people aren’t even going out for dinner anymore.’”
I nominate this guy to replace Helicopter Ben. He seems to have a better grasp of what’s going on.
You have to love the …”Some people aren’t even going out for dinner anymore.’” What a shocker!!
If I needed to do some belt tightening, this would be the first thing to go in the new, leaner budget. A couple of meals eating out & tipping = about a week of groceries.
Gsinbe,
It amazes me how many people don’t cook. We eat very well at home, only eating out once a week.
Why? Saving for that down payment. We have quite the head start over anyone not on this blog.
Got popcorn?
Neil
Agree with that whole-heartedly. If you cook at home, you can cook (almost) whatever you want and drink whatever you want. Last night: Chicken mole with a cilantro, radish, lime and red onion salad with a half bottle of Gallo of Sonoma Cab Sav and a piece of leftover lemon chess pie with blackberry compote. Total cost of ingredients was probably under $15. At a restaurant, I would have paid more like $30, right?
Then again, my opportunity costs are low b/c I enjoy cooking.
Sorry, no popcorn…
Aside — it also seems that the only people I meet who can/do/like to cook in their mid-thirties are guys. Anecdotally, women I meet are actually proud that they cannot cook.
60-something and retired here, and I started doing the cooking about five years ago. We only go to the club or a restaurant about 2 or 3 times a month.
Starbucks seems to be a good lagging indicator of housings decline.
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=SBUX&t=my
Naa, the first thing to go is the $5/cup of coffee.
Dang straight! Starbucks will even feel the pain!
I hate eating out unless it’s mcdonalds. Most of my food comes from Walmart and ill be growing plenty of food once I move out. I also don’t plan on a car. Once I save up for a 100% downpayment, my day to day expenses will be so low that I could probably sustain myself on a $1k a month income.(self employed)
“There was a real demand and a demand is still there.”
Exactly, now if only we lived forever and didn’t overbuild.
This should read, “there was a real demand out there and we built quadruple the number of homes that represented this “real” demand.”
There was real demand out there, especially for larger houses. After all, people needed to buy large houses so they could stay fully leveraged for RE speculation.
Of course, the wasn’t demand for housing as shelter - just as vehicles for speculation. Should have been obvious since we were adding over 1.5% to the housing stock for years, while population has been growing less than 1.0% at the same time.
I love his definition of “demand”. In his book demand has noting to do with ability to pay. I guess that the demand for Ferrari’s must be sky high as well.
Sometimes the quality of total demand needs close examination before increasing supply and betting your career on it Snaith. It’s been well documented and mentioned over a thousand times on this blog that GF, FBs, and specuvestors made up most of the demand in Florida over the last 4 years.
Hammer: You can have any kind of a home you want. You can even get stucco. Oh, how you can get stucco.
Do any of you amatuer weathermen or women know if Global warming is blocking summer hurricanes in Caribbean.
There hasn’t been a hurricane in Florida since an inconvenient truth was released.
Could there be some connection?
Global warming increases the water temperature which is the power source for hurricanes.
However, it also seems that global warming is increasing upper level wind shear in the gulf which disrupts the circulation pattern of hurricanes and prevents them from forming.
Which effect will win? Who can say?
Its funny how global warming has suddenly been made into a movie that the affects are supposedly happening instantly. All I hear at work is how its so hot this summer, it must be global warming. I am almost starting to believe its not real because of the movie. I know when the earth was too hot last time those stupid dinosaurs or whatever was around must have not been practicing environmental friendly measures either.
I know when the earth was too hot last time those stupid dinosaurs or whatever was around must have not been practicing environmental friendly measures either.
Because when you don’t understand something, that always means it’s not really happening. Sheesh.
Their was a minor El Nino last year that kept hurricanes out. Not supposed to happen this year although a weak La Nina is predicted. But I thought that NOAA predicted 15 and I havent heard much news. Be right back…
“On May 22, 2007, NOAA released their pre-season forecast for the 2007 season. They predicted 13 to 17 named storms, with 7 to 10 becoming hurricanes, and 3 to 5 becoming major hurricanes.[5]”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Atlantic_hurricane_season
Info for 2006:
http://www.physorg.com/news76869698.html
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/09/060905-hurricanes.html?source=rss
http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/articlenews.aspx?type=scienceNews&storyID=2006-11-30T171618Z_01_N30457944_RTRIDST_0_SCIENCE-WEATHER-HURRICANES-DC.XML
Watch for development in August - should be much higher and indications are this could be just an active hurrice season as predicted. Wind shear is now dropping in the tropical Atlantic, and high water temps are in the western Caribean and Gulf.
See Jeff Masters’ blog on Weather Underground, specifically the 07/16 post, outlook for rest of July.
http://www.weatherunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/archive.html?tstamp=200707
“Earlier this year, Pasco cut projects in 22 locations countywide, worth $950-million, from its five-year roadbuilding budget for 2008 through 2012.”
950 Million? Are you guys on Wall Street seeing this? Subprime IS NOT contained.
Kinda off topic, but I noticed Blackstone (BX), the private equity company, is off from their IPO price of $31. The stock is languishing around $26 and falling. So much for that plan.
BX bought me another month of sitting on my can and doing nothing if I so desire. What was it oversubscribed - 10x or so? And they were telling people to avoid the democratic Google IPO at 85!
Yeah, they have our best interests at heart, no doubt!
A friend of mine overpaid for a condo conversion. ($210) back at the peak. He is way behind on the mortgage and his total out of cost is $2500 for a place that used to rent for $1100 a month. He is trying to short sell it to a guy up north for $150k but the appraiser came out and said she did the best she could but it appraised at $197k. He asked her why so high and she said it had a water view (retention pond). I told him that the fair market value is much less and that is what she should be appraising at. These appraiser are still out of touch! I told him to go get an independent one not paid for by the mortgage company.
Sell it to the appraiser.
She will probably say “heck no, I am not paying that much just for a view of a retention pond”.
“Large puddle”
LOL!!!
Oh your friend drank the kool aid. Can he do a short sale and pony up the difference out of pocket? If not I guess its foreclosure for him. $210k is a huge ripoff!
You know it is a huge rip off when you can rent the $2500 place for $1000 a month and still feel like you’re paying too much.
I went thru the bust in the NE in ‘89 - ‘96. Until people stop thinking the ‘high water’ value is the ‘true value’, we not there yet. When the tide is long since fallen and the high water mark is a distant memory, then we are closer to bottom.
ken, that is EXACTLY RIGHT. This is how I feel. Boom times are a gift, not a normal business cycle.
Last year some people here were worried wbout rents rising because of housing sales slowing down. Check this out from SW Florida’s HeraldTribune.com:
Life is sweet for North Port renters
A massive supply of vacant homes in the city pushes rents downward and prompts owners to offer incentives
Everyone contacted by the Herald-Tribune acknowledged that rents are plunging.
“Rents are coming way down because of supply,” said Karen St. Pierre, a rental specialist with ERA Advantage Realty. “A 1,800-square-foot house without a pool that rented for $1,400 a year and a half ago is now renting from $900 to $1,000 a month.”
That represents a 36 percent drop and has created a wave of resentment among investors, who have seen their taxes and insurance bills move rapidly in the opposite direction.
“Some owners are going crazy,” said Noone of Sun Coast Real Estate. “They say they need the higher rent or they’ll go bankrupt.”
Noone says agents try to explain that it is better to lower rents and keep tenants than to let the house go empty.
“I try to tell them that if their mortgage and payments are $1,500 a month, they should accept a renter willing to pay $1,000 a month, because that means they are covering all but $500 of their cost,” Noone said.
——
(formerly PDXrenter)
Bwaaa haaa haa ha!
Oops, that came out loud again… dang.
Rents are dropping everywhere. Too much housing stock depresses all values. Look at the number of bedrooms for rent in every city. I wonder how many of those college town condos now have four undergrads trashing the place?
(Hey, college kids want nice digs with beer money left over.)
The more I read, the more I realize this is only the 2nd inning. I’m not sure when the big hitters for the visitors will get their chance (the home team is whiffing at bat), but when they start their next round… it will feel like it will never end. (Especially when that guy exhibiting “roid rage”, as he tears apart the bench, gets to bat…)
Oh, the visiting team is the “National Clue bats.”
Got popcorn?
Neil
Somehow rents in CA - west LA and santa monica - keep increasing, if one goes by the ads in craigslist! IMO these are FBs/ speculators, albeit high fliers, that are upside down and are trying to pass the full burden of the mortgage to a naive renter.
I remember that San diego had this problem about 6-8 months ago and the RE bulls used the initial rise in asking rents as an argument for buying. Does anyone have anecdotal information on the rents?
I recevied the rental renewal letter from my complex yesterday. My monthly rent is $850 today, and they are proposing a $28 increase to $878. Yeah right. Included with the letter is a leaflet describing the high cost of moving. It says the following:
“Many people moving to save money on rent and are shocked to discover the real cost of moving. Of course, costs vary, but below you will find those that may be incurred:
xxxx….costs such as $250 electric deposit, $60 to transfer phone, and the shocker is the total cost of moving $2910…
There’s also costs of time of packing, inviting and buying lunch for friends who help you move, etc.
Please come renew your lease today and save some $$”
The problem is that there are 6 pages of rentals on realtor.com just in this same zipcode. The complex is also offering $500 cash to anyone who refers a resident. I’m going to wait a month and then go negotiate a rent decrease with the office.
Historical rent:
2003- $658/mo
2004- $727/mo
2005- $787/mo (rents went really high during the bubble, and if you didn’t renew right away, you would lose your apt)
2006- $850/mo
I’ll keep you all posted.
Renting sucks in Tampa, FL (but better than catching a falling knife)
“Renting sucks in Tampa, FL (but better than catching a falling knife)”
Amen, brothah. I think, if you can get a longer term lease somewhere else that you like for less (like two, even three years), that might be the way to go. Moving is a nuisance, the rental companies know this. Just be prepared to call their bluff when you negotiate.
Just send them back an identical looking “infomercial” pamphlet that details the cost of carrying the full load of a mortgage WITHOUT a renter at all vs having a renter, then tell them you’ll be staying for $200/month less than what you’re paying now or you’ll be moving to the newer complex with the swimming pool and clubhouse for less than what you’re currently paying . LOL
Throw in a copy of several hundred craiglist listings for good measure too.
Family reunion in Ohio, cousin from Naples moving to Carolinas with significant other; was an interior designer for builder. Fla pop. drops by two more. Anecdotal, but it adds to the fire.
My nephew just went down this weekend to bring his fiance back from Orlando to Michigan. Add one more deserter.
Equipment rate quote from Miami, FL to Albuquerque, NM
Lock in this rate now by completing your reservation today. Rate quotes are subject to change anytime. This quote includes 7 days of use and 2165 miles free. You may add damage waiver protection at the time of pickup.
Moving date 8/22/2007
We recommend locking this rate in now by reserving this reservation with a valid credit card. Rate quotes are subject to change at anytime. $2192
Choose your truck:
26′ truck
4+ bedrooms
Capacity: 1,592 cu. ft.
Inside dimensions: 23′5″ x 7′9″ x 8′2″ (LxWxH)
more info…
Equipment rate quote from Albuquerque, NM to Miami, FL
Lock in this rate now by completing your reservation today. Rate quotes are subject to change anytime. This quote includes 7 days of use and 2165 miles free. You may add damage waiver protection at the time of pickup.
Moving date 8/22/2007
We recommend locking this rate in now by reserving this reservation with a valid credit card. Rate quotes are subject to change at anytime.
Choose your truck:
26′ truck
4+ bedrooms
Capacity: 1,592 cu. ft.
Inside dimensions: 23′5″ x 7′9″ x 8′2″ (LxWxH)
more info… $1434
What a change from just a couple years ago!! Absolutely amazing.
Homeowners in dire financial straits skimp on upkeep of the dwelling’s interior and amenities, notably the swimming pool. ‘If they’re getting foreclosed on, they tend to let the property go down the tube,’ McWilliams said. ‘If they’re in the final stages, they cut off the AC. There’s a risk issue.
Shall we just abandon Florida to the rising population of West Niles mosquitoes that are surely breeding in these unmaintained pools? Do the cities take over and add another pile to an unpaid mountain of bills?
I wonder how many people will be stripping the pipes out of the walls, the condenser out of the A/C unit, and other recyclable materials from the houses before they leave ??
I just read last week that CA had a big mosquito problem from deserted pools with standing water.
“‘We’ve begun to see construction employment begin to finally drop … at fairly substantial rates,’ said Frank Williams, a legislative economic analyst.”
Just what the hell is ‘ legislative economic analyst ‘ and how much are they paying. Who made up this position in the first place?
“There was a real demand and a demand is still there.’”
As if the “real” demand justifies this mess??? There’s a lot of stuff I want, but don’t get because I can’t afford it.
“Jeff Bloom’s family has run Ethan Allen furniture stores in and around Tampa since 1967. Since late last year, customers just aren’t coming through the doors at his design centers in Tampa, Citrus Park and Brandon. ‘We have to wait and see when housing’s coming back before we can justify building,’ said. ‘This is as rough as we’ve seen it in many, many years.’”
Every time I read a quote like this, I want to YELL!! This guy’s family has run furniture stores in the Tampa area since 1967. That’s more than enough time to see the area go through various business cycles. Boom, bust, steady. When I have a large influx of business, I treat it like a gift. I don’t expect it to keep on happening, although I do what I can to keep it at a higher level. But if it is an outside influence that causes the increase in business, it can’t be counted on to continue that way. On the plus side, though, at least he’s being cautious and not expanding, waiting to see when the housing market will come back before building. That’s more than I can say for the developers. That’s probably why the business has survived all these years. They can roll with the punches.
Especially Ethan Allan, that’s really expensive furniture. I have seen a lot of EA stuff on Craigslist lately - looks like the bottom is falling out in furniture.
“Home Depot named Florida as a sore spot.”
Oh really? Well, Florida has named Home Depot as a sore spot.
I think both need to see a doctor and find out if there is a cure.
We’ll let auger-inn tell us where that sore spot is!
“The state’s construction industry shed 18,000 jobs over the past year, state officials said”
18,000 jobs. LMAO! That’s not counting the massive numbers of jobs that illegals were working at in the construction industry. I’d like to see that figure. Betcha this is touching the economies of Mexico and Central America.
“After increasing an average of just more than 23 percent a year since 2000, remittances for the first two months of 2007 were just 5.5 percent ahead of the same period last year, according to Mexico’s central bank. The figure peaked in May 2006 at $2.3 billion and has drifted downward ever since.”
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003685704_mexremit29.html
Hmmmm. Lesseee, what happened in early 2006 again?
Probably more like 54,000 jobs lost. Illegals probably make up 2/3 of the construction workforce.
“Big builders that traded on Wall Street had the added pressure of making investors happy”
And therein lies the problem. Wall Street dictating how companies should do business. Here’s a little advice to shareholders: Do you like the company you’re investing in? Do they have a good product, a decent management and workforce? Do you have confidence in it? If you answered yes to all the above, then by all means put your money into the company AND THEN keep your mouth shut and your bowels open. It’s the best way to stay healthy financially. Mind yer own biz and let the company mind its own biz, if you like it. If you don’t, sell the stock. Quit whining and stop being a greedyguts.
Wow.
Just WOW.
I just did a quick check on Foreclosure.com for Lis Pendens (preforeclosures)…..
Here in Polk County Fl we had 1,551 Lis Pendens filed from early June through this last week.
1,551.
Folks, I have been here for 22 years and have never seen anything like this.
Never ever.
This thing is gonna collapse here in Central Florida before Christmas.
We are now officially in a Full Rout.
YIKES!! Glad where I’m at is different.
To all those out of work contractors. POUND SAND!!!! When we owned a house in Tampa every contractor treated us like dirt and gave super high take it or leave prices. So we left it and sold our house and now happily rent for less than half of our mortgage payment.
Check out the new Miami condo glut video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIQaQn722QU