It’s A New Ballgame
The Times Union reports from New York. “In line with a national trend, the Capital Region’s housing market continued to slide during the first six months of the year, leading to price declines in some areas. ‘Saratoga was our most active market and the market showing the most price appreciation,’ said James Ader, the Realtor association’s chief executive. ‘So if there is an area that would be showing an adjustment, it would be Saratoga.’”
“Many are complaining of homes that just won’t sell, or are finding they need to drop asking prices to get potential buyers to take a look. ‘It’s a slowdown, and quite a slowdown,’ said Realtor Geraldine Abrams in Saratoga Springs. ‘A lot of houses are not selling.’”
“Abrams knows that as well as anyone. Her house in Saratoga Springs has been on the market for six weeks, but has attracted just one browser. The lackluster pace led her to knock $50,000 off the $949,000 asking price. ‘I’m living the market personally,’ said Abrams, adding that the current market is the worst she’s seen in at least 10 years. ‘I’ve had to take the bitter medicine myself.’”
From Capital News 9 in New York. “The Beggs family…put the home on the market a year ago. Since then, the family has been through three realtors, and they’ve knocked $10,000 off the original price. ‘It makes you want to cry, it does,’ said Tracy Beggs. ‘It’s really frustrating not getting the interest in the house when I know there’s nothing wrong with it.’”
“The Beggs aren’t alone in their struggles. The greater capital association of realtors says the national housing slump has finally hit the capital region. Housing sales in Schenectady county dropped 17%.”
“‘We sold property too high. We took the prices too high. And the real estate market was created by the realtors,’ said Tom Marks of Coldwell Banker in Schenectady.”
“Marks said a few people bought overpriced homes, and that overpriced the entire market. ‘Now we gotta get back to reality and get it back on track. And it’s up to the home-buyers to see that them prices cannot be gotten,’ he said.”
Newsday reports from New York. “This year in New York, more than 30 percent of subprime, adjustable mortgage loans will see new interest rates for the first time, with approximately 25 percent re-setting next year, according to the state Banking Department. Many loans that originated last year will go from 8.4 percent to 11.4 percent, according to state figures.”
“Default rates are rising and so are foreclosures - a 40 percent increase in New York last year. It’s happening so fast that Michael McHugh, vice president of the Empire State Mortgage Bankers Association, apologizes for not knowing the number of lenders on Long Island, noting that companies with no history have proliferated during the boom housing years and contributed to the current sea of risky loans.”
“McHugh and others say few lenders are gearing up. Already, agents and short sales specialists report, lenders can’t act fast enough on short sales sometimes to forestall foreclosures.”
“‘It’s a new ballgame,’ said McHugh, who also heads Continental Home Loans in Melville. ‘It’s ridiculously caught a lot of people by surprise.’”
“Homeowners, many of them immigrants who didn’t understand loan terms or owners who recently refinanced, are writing ‘hardship letters’ to lenders and submitting proof of destitution. Lenders worry over making the right decisions and face people trying to con their way out of contracts.”
“From no talk of such deals in 2005 to a dozen cases involving his company last year, Michael Litzner, owner of Westbury-based Century 21 American Homes, predicts the number will rise, because for lenders, time is really money ‘Money today is worth more than six months or a year from now,’ Litzner said.”
The New York Daily News. “Foreclosure filings this spring jumped 92% in Queens. Foreclosure filings also rose substantially in Manhattan in the second quarter, although the actual number totaled just 255. ‘From where I sit, foreclosures are a tremendous problem,’ said Carol Finegan, a foreclosure prevention counselor at nonprofit Brooklyn Housing & Family Services.”
“A report by appraisal firm Miller Samuel found the median sales price in Queens in the second quarter was $469,000, down 4.3%.”
“For six of Finegan’s clients, it’s already too late, Finegan has told them to sell. But faced with a choppy market, three are hoping to do short sales, which means their lenders agree to accept less than the amounts owed. It’s a scenario Finegan expects to see more and more as strapped homeowners find their interest rates adjusting upward.”
“‘People took loans they shouldn’t have been given in the first place — that’s our problem,’ she said.”
From New York Business. “The number of New York City homeowners facing foreclosure is on track to reach the highest point in more than a decade. Lenders have started foreclosure actions on 7,000 homes since January, according to the Neighborhood Economic Development Advocacy Project. By the end of the year, the number is expected to exceed 14,000, which would represent a 60% increase over 2006.”
“‘We have to brace ourselves,’ says Sarah Ludwig, NEDAP’s executive director. ‘It’s going to get worse before it gets better.’”
“Three of the hardest hit neighborhoods are in Brooklyn, according to NEDAP: Bedford Stuyvesant, Flatbush and East New York. Two are in Queens: Rochdale and Jamaica.”
“Neighborhood Housing Services of New York Inc., one of the major agencies that counsels homeowners, is getting about 800 calls per month, up from 300 calls per month a year ago.”
“Already, signs of decay are showing up in some areas, housing advocates say. ‘You find if you drive through these neighborhoods that they are starting to show signs of deferred maintenance one some single-family homes,’ says Sarah Gerecke, NHS executive director. ‘That is something that we have not seen in years. The fact that they are less well tended is a real sign that people don’t have the resources to stay in their homes.’”
From Fosters Online in New Hampshire. “Mortgage foreclosures may double in Strafford County this year, with Rochester accounting for roughly one-third of them, according to the New Hampshire Banking Department.”
“State Banking Commissioner Peter Hildreth said Monday that the number of subprime loans granted in the state has increased rapidly in the last few years, and when low introductory interest rates adjust higher, Strafford County will be particularly hard hit. Hildreth said that the high price of real estate on the Seacoast has lead subprime lenders to offer ‘teaser rate’ deals to buyers who would not otherwise qualify for loans. Subprime loans currently account for 14 percent of loans statewide.”
“The Strafford County Registry of Deeds has recorded 98 foreclosures so far this year, almost equaling last year’s entire total of 113.”
The Boston Herald from Massachusetts. “A few years ago, a client of Cambridge real estate consultant Paul Martinez saw a two-family Somerville house as a prime chance at a second income. The 30-year-old novice investor had seen ‘flipping’ on reality shows dozens of times. But 18 months later, this buyer was learning to tile and wire. He purchased at the top of the market and had run out of money on the brink of the housing slump, and the condos sat on a deflated market, overpriced by $60,000. Before long, foreclosure loomed.”
“‘People see these shows on HGTV and think they can flip,’ said Martinez. ‘They don’t have the contacts or the knowledge to recognize they’re getting false numbers.’”
“Between the first quarter of 2006 and 2007, foreclosures increased in Massachusetts by a record 75 percent, 83 percent in Suffolk County alone, according to ForeclosuresMass.”
“‘A year and a half ago, when the market was racing, a lot of first-timers tried to flip and never sold. They might have bought into a loan that was escalating too quickly or gotten trapped by overinvesting in a moderate neighborhood, and now more than a few are stuck,’ said Paul Turcotte, broker and owner of Re/Max Destiny in Cambridge.”
The Boston Globe. “Unlike in the last real estate bust, when local banks and credit unions wrote nearly 80 percent of mortgages in Massachusetts, most home loans issued today pass through a nationwide chain of brokers, lenders, service companies, Wall Street firms, and investors. That makes tracing ownership difficult, if not impossible.”
“Kristen Harol, deputy director of Lawrence Community Works, said her staff can’t even figure out whom to call to negotiate purchases of the foreclosed properties. ‘We can’t get to square one,’ she said. ‘The problem is: Real estate is local, but the money is national.’”
“For example, more than 20 percent of foreclosure actions in Massachusetts in the last year have been initiated on behalf of a unit of Deutsche Bank Group, according to ForeclosuresMass. Deutsche, while listed on the deed as the mortgage holder and technically the legal owner, is a trustee for investors such as hedge funds and other financial firms that hold the securities.”
“A spokesman said Deutsche Bank has no economic interest in the mortgages and is not responsible for foreclosures or for selling foreclosed property. Such decisions are made by servicing companies, the spokesman said.”
“Moreover, mortgage-backed bonds are usually sold with legally binding commitments that create more obstacles for delinquent borrowers. For example, reductions in loan amounts are often needed to keep people from losing homes, but mortgage-backed bonds are usually sold with prohibitions against forgiving loan principal, except in rare cases, said McCoy, the UConn professor.”
“‘Anyone seeking a loan workout is going to have to face these impediments,’ said Patricia McCoy, a University of Connecticut law professor. ‘It’s perfect deniability. When there’s a problem, each person in line says, ‘Don’t talk to me, talk to the other person.’”
The Gloucester County Times from New Jersey. “Two years ago, Alvaro Ocasio bought a brand-new, two-story Colonial in East Greenwich, but a job transfer soon forced him to relocate. He put the house on the market in January. It’s been sitting there with a ‘For Sale’ sign out front ever since.”
“Meanwhile, new developments are cropping up around his Oakridge Street home, creating competition and forcing Ocasio to reduce his asking price by $21,000 less than what he paid for the model home two years ago.”
“‘The problem is, a lot of sellers are trying to make a lot of money in this market, and it’s just not there,’ Ocasio said.”
“For the first half of this year, however, sales have decreased by 10 percent compared to last year while both the inventory and the median sale price have grown, according to Prudential Fox & Roach’s HomExpert Report.”
“About five years ago, the real estate market was a different ball game. Interest rates were low and subprime loans were available for home buyers who normally wouldn’t qualify because of their credit rating, explained Steve Storti, senior VP of marketing for Prudential Fox & Roach.”
“‘The reality is, from 2003 to 2006 you had a very, very, very strong real estate market,’ Storti said.”
“With more buyers shopping around, the competition increased the selling prices of homes. The turnover was also quicker, which forced many sellers to have a new home lined up before they sold their own, Storti said. The situation today is reversed.”
“‘You have to sell your home before you feel comfortable committing to purchase one, and that tends to slow down the market in and of itself,’ Storti said. ‘The mortgage market is becoming tighter because a lot of people who received loans in the last three or four years are defaulting on them.’”
“If you can’t afford the loan, then you can’t afford the home, leaving no choice but to put a ‘For Sale’ sign on the lawn.”
“Mortgage lenders are now looking a bit more closely at a borrower’s credit history before handing over a loan, which has decreased the pool of potential buyers, explained Stacy Masso, a home loan consultant.”
“‘A lot of people got into those fixed rates the first few years which made their payments quite comfortable,’ Masso said. ‘Now they can’t afford it, but they can’t sell it right now because there are not enough buyers. It has kind of all combusted.’”
“‘It depends on the seller’s situation,’ said Erin Tallant, a Realtor who is trying to sell a home in Washington Township. Two years ago, the house in Washington Township would have sold for $269,000, Tallant said. Now, she has it priced at $240,000.”
“Ron Bruce, an agent for Coldwell Banker Elite who is selling Ocasio’s home in East Greenwich, said he reduced the price to $349,000 with hopes of making it move. ‘Right now is a great time for a buyer to buy,’ Bruce said. ‘They can keep shopping until they find a good deal.’”
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I am so happy this is happening, everyone is to blame for the current financial crisis, -starting from the power hungry politician who WANT high real state prices so they can collect more in taxes and demagogue their way up, -the incredible stupid vain and ignorant immigrants with their “american dream goal” and their need to show off to their countrymen they have achieved it
- the greed of the flippers who quit jobs and risked everything to make a quick dollar always expecting homes to appreciate 100% every year FOREVER (how mentally retarded can one be????) -the real state agents who, as mentioned in this article, created this mess by selling too high and falsely encouraged people to buy so it will not affect their comission, the lenders who like the RE agents needed to increase their salaries with comission by turning a blind eye on weather a person can really afford such overpriced homes, and last but not least on the incredibly greedy, egocentric, pompous, narcissistic, arrogant, megalomeniac, wall street hedge funder who have manipulated the market with “other’s people money” and cashed in extravagantly during the housing boom so that they could now declare their funds “worthless” causing a worldwide panic in credit markets, our currency to weaken, our national debt to balloon, and our borrowing cost to skyhigh. I saw and predicted the dot com bust but that will be nothing compared to the real state bust.
think of it in sheer volume 1.3 trillion dollar evaporated in 2000
there is a potential of up to 30 trillion dollars to be affected by this crisis from defaults due to foreclosures to higher lending rates with potentially 10 trillion dollars to vanish into thin air.
All because people do not stick to fundamentals.
Flippers didn’t risk much, they got 120% loans with zero down. Not my idea of “risking everything”. They took free money, and now they can walk away.
there is tax implication as well.
I guess if you think damaging your credit score and having a foreclosure on your credit history isn’t risking much, then I guess its not risking much. Without the flippers in the market, the downside will be as ugly as the upside was good.
Sometimes credit scores of individuals are not affected. Around NE Ohio a lot of investors form a corp or LLC, so when they default, their personal credit score isn’t affected.
Around NE Ohio a lot of investors form a corp or LLC, so when they default, their personal credit score isn’t affected.
If anyone gets around to filing a lawsuit against one of these entities, they’re going to name the officers in the suit and even the slightest bit of fraud (owner occupied?) will allow the corporate veil to be pierced and it will be as if the corporation never existed. Chances are, these people also commingled their personal funds with the corporate funds which would also increase the likelihood of the corporation not offering any protection to the fraudsters.
I’ve been struggling with the following question:
As you all know, lax lending standards have led to, or played a major part in, this bubble. Then you all know the chain of events: defaults, foreclosures, tightening standards, etc. So my question is, what happens from this point forward with the banks? We all know the fly by night lenders will be gone, but what about Wells and the other big ones? Obviously, their earnings are turning into junk as we speak. But, will they be able to stay in business if they keep standards tight? What happens if they decide to relax standards again, just to get loan volume, to try to make a buck? I think they are screwed now no matter what they do, consolidate or not. Will they just close their doors and start over? Okay, so that’s more than one question, but I’ve been driving myself nuts thinking about it.
Banks will eventually fail in sufficient numbers as to cause huge problems for the FDIC. Why? Bank’s exposure to RE is at historic levels.
Between retained mortgage portfolios, MBS, and loans to developers they’re up to their necks in soon-to-be bad debt.
Makes you want to spit on them .Now all the players are going to blame each other .
This is what scares me, its almost as if banks want you to walk away from your property…You are willing to pay or stretch the payments… but the bank says NO….
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For example, reductions in loan amounts are often needed to keep people from losing homes, but mortgage-backed bonds are usually sold with prohibitions against forgiving loan principal,
“but mortgage-backed bonds are usually sold with prohibitions against forgiving loan principal, ”
Which is why it is tricky to get a short sale done, and why prices are sticky. They can’t really “cut a deal” until the bad loan is forced back upon them.
“This is what scares me, its almost as if banks want you to walk away from your property…”
I’ve had that worry too, aNYCdj. Does anyone think there may be triggers in the future that will cause at least some banks to start calling mortgage loans?
Yes, but it’s different here. The Brooklyn neighborhoods where foreclosures are soaring are two miles away from the affluent Brownstone areas. And Queens is across an entire river from Manhattan. Besides, Wall Street is booming.
“Wall Street is booming.”
I still see a lot of dead money ahead, piles and piles of monetary corpses.
I see debt people- sorry, had to chuck that in
Haw!
Yeh. Debt to buy houses and toys and probably debt to buy stocks.
Yeah, but when those funds go under do you think the fund managers lose their own money? I live in a neighborhood (Tribeca) chock full of late-twenties/early-thirties multi-millionaires. (A more annoying breed is hard to find). And they’re far better than joe-sixpack at keeping their money safe.
For all those who make fun of the “It’s different here” statement, consider this more defensible statement: “It’s different when you’re extraordinarily wealthy”.
Manhattan has forces in it that really are different. As for Queens and the Bronx — they’re toast.
If the toasted boros bring their social problems (arising from said toastedness) into Manhattan, then Manhattan will be over too. It’s not a gated community, and it hasn’t been immune in the past (how easily we forget what was before ‘Giuliani’ time) PS - during last downturn, Mahhattan co-ops dropped in price too. And God knows what’ll happen to the condo market — it’s overpriced, overspeculated, overbuilt and most are slapped up as cheaply and as quickly as possible. Any annoying breedsters stuck in one of those is going to have some humility coming in the next couple of years.
You betcha! Affluent Clinton Hill ($1.5M+ brownstones) borders dilapidating Bed Stuy - a whole street width away. No bubble here.
“This year in New York, more than 30 percent of subprime”
Does anyone have links to reports on what percentage of recent purchase loans and refinances are prime vs. sub prime vs. alt-a for different areas of the united states? I remember a while back (sheesh, sometime in the past two years) reports that showed the breakdown of different loan types for different areas of the US, specifically by city and/or ‘MSA’.
What I’m looking for is something to show what percentage of loans in my area are prime/alt-a/subprime, as well as the mix of 30 year/15 year/ARM/IO ARM/Option ARM.
I remember seeing those reports during the past two years on THBB, but I can’t for the life of me locate them now.
Thanks for any help.
Credit scores for sub prime before July 1 were minimun 620, now credit scores for sub prime are 660, therefore mortgage apps are DOWN…and pending sales might be up because the barn door is
really closing.
Does anyone know of a histogram indicating how many people are in each FICO range?
Google found this. YMMV:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mintsoftware/430933345/
Great! Thanks for the pointer.
By the way, in the battle of Long Island the British camped on Staten Island, marched up through eastern Brooklyn, there the foreclosures are, and attacked western Brooklyn, where prices have soared. Washington had to retreat to Manhattan, where prices are still rising if you believe Miller Samuel, where he tried to make another stand before finally retreating to New Jersey.
It could be the housing bears storming the country will take the same route.
“‘We sold property too high. We took the prices too high. And the real estate market was created by the realtors,’ said Tom Marks of Coldwell Banker in Schenectady.”
AMAZING HONESTY! I was born and raised in upstate and I can tell you people that the KoolAde there is STILL having it’s delusional effect on the natives. Here’s the gist of their wacked out logic
1) EVERYONE from NYC is a millionare
2) EVERYONE from NYC wants to live in dumpy upstate NY
3) Prices will only “plateau” for a couple years and continue to go up
4) Prices ARE NOT going down here at the moment but they are everywhere else (the truth is that they are dropping)
Point #1 is the key element of the problem with the thinking of people in upstate. The economy is SO bad there and for SO long that even a 40k/yr schlep appears to be loaded in their eyes. It’s quite sad, frustrating and hilarious all at the same time. For the most part, they are very kind and harmless people but incredibly GULLIBLE.
Then after reading comments in article, this dope sez,
“”The market’s not bad, it’s going back up,” he said.”
Do thes a$$-hats pay attention to what they’re saying?
Like yourself I was born and raised in Upstate NY. Since then I’ve lived in several different states and I visit family in NY regularly. I’m not sharing your vision of Upstaters as naive rubes. On the whole they tend to view a house as a place to live, not as a financial instrument to pay for their stuff.
It wasn’t my intent to mis-characterize them as naive idiots, if I actually did so. What I can tell the world is that my personal experience with my large extended family stretching from Saratoga to Montreal and east to the VT/NH border is that they truly believe that NYC folk are loaded and they all want to live amongst the natives in upstate and all the natives will be millionares after they offload their industrial-age housing to all these imaginary Donald Trumps.
If you deny that they embrace the “millionares” are coming, then I think you’re in denial yourself.
Tesla, you took the words right outta my mouth. My mother is Buffalo born and raised, and believe me, she’s no fool.
She’s of the mind that a house is a place to live, nothing more, nothing less. She also isn’t too impressed by someone driving a fancy car. Her comment? “So what? It’s just four wheels and a motor.”
I grew up in the Buffalo suburbs, and I don’t know who exeter knows, but schelps or rubes upstate? I think not. And under the delusion that NYC is full of millionaires–please, we’re discussing educated adults, not deluded six-year-olds. Upstate ire with NYC is with the diversion of state tax dollars to fund the generous welfare, educational and health benefits provided the poor and the illegal, ata the cost of similar services for citizens upstate.
And that’s not an “unsophisticated” beef.
Spike, I’m not sure what you’re trying to say but the two articles Ben posted were SPECIFIC to Albany/Schenectady/Saratoga counties and I was born and raised in Saratoga Co. Buffalo may as well be Shanghai in this case. My apologies for not being specific but I stand by my words that natives in those counties and north are convinced that NYC folks are all wealthy and they will be arriving soon to pay grossly inflated prices in those counties I mentioned. Further to the point, no locals are buying there and the steady stream of downstate buyers over the last 6 years have slowed to a trickle and the market there is seized up.
I lived in Syracuse for 15 years. I think there is a huge distinction between the “Hudson Valley region” and the rest of Upstate NY. I think the Hudson Valley is NYC-oriented. Once you start going West to Utica/Rome, they Syr, Roch, Buff, you are in a whole different state, one very similar to Ohio. Basically everything West of the Capital District is part of the Great Lakes Midwest Region. Syracuse NY and Dayton OH are identical twin cities from what I can see.
Right on Cincy. The NYC influence slows once you get past Kingston or so. In my previous posts I was speaking specifically areas between Utica and Troy on the south boundary all the way to the Canada border. Basically all of the Adirondacks and her foothills.
spike66: Upstate ire with NYC is with the diversion of state tax dollars to fund the generous welfare, educational and health benefits provided the poor and the illegal, ata the cost of similar services for citizens upstate.
I’m afraid that’s a myth. From Wikipedia:
The city also sends an additional $11.1 billion more each year to the state of New York than it receives back.
Don’t quote from Wikipedia when you don’t even know the facts behind a recent court case that ordered Upstate to send its scarce educational dollars to the city.
SAP: Don’t quote from Wikipedia when you don’t even know the facts behind a recent court case that ordered Upstate to send its scarce educational dollars to the city.
Merely pointing out that when all the dollars and cents are added up, NYC sends more money to the burbs than it gets in return. Ultimately it’s all one big bucket - what NYC gets in educational dollars, it loses in other areas. And the bottom line is that NYC hands out $11b to the burbs. Per year.
CincyDad, the idea that NYC will push up Hudson Valley housing prices is probably accurate; at least when you consider the lower-Hudson valley meaning Westchester and Rockland. To a lesser extent that is probably also true for Orange, Putnam and Dutchess. Although I think those counties get more of an indirect effect, because those who work in Westchester/Rockland and find that area too expensive might go a bit north, but it would take a hearty soul to live in Dutchess or Orange and actually commute directly to NYC. I doubt that NYC would have much influence at all for anything north of Dutchess/Orange.
This is nothing personal. I never said upstate natives(I am one) where rubes. What I did say was that they’re convinced the millionares are coming.
Clearly, we know very different people.
Correction…. Clearly, Buffalo is 300 miles away from the Adirondacks and may as well be on another planet. Nevertheless, vegassoldin2005 validated my assertion a few posts below that locals are hoping for millionares in Chautauqua County which is in the general vicinity of Buffalo. Of course he was speaking all the millionares from Ohio (laughing)…. In any case, it appears the same sentiment among locals exist on opposite ends of the state so you may be right.
locals are hoping for millionares in Chautauqua County
Would it be safe to call folks like that “Bubbletards”?
BubbleTurds?
That is why your mother’s generation will have retirement and mine won’t. Too worried about the Jones’s and keeping up an “image”. The reality is that having a McMansion and a expensive car mean nothing if you can’t vacation, eat out and enjoy your life. My generation is going to learn that the hard way..My husband and I see our home as a place to live and enjoy..I never looked at the price but instead focused on what our payment would be. When we moved I wanted our payment to stay the same or go up by a certain dollar amount. We have no car payments and enjoy ourselves. We just know too many families like ours who only care about “image.” That “image” is only in their own mind. No one else cares especially when it comes to covering the bills.
But what’s the old saying: “You can live in your car, but you can’t drive your house to work.”
But the best of both worlds, livin in your van down by the river. You’ve got wheels plus a waterfront location.
in Upstate- I thought the house was free but the payment was utilities and taxes
West of the Capital District (Albany/Schenect/Troy) that statement is “Oh so true!”
I’m from up-state too. My folks had a lakefront home on Chautauqua Lake which they sold in ‘69. I still have relatives living back there. Property on the lake is astronomical, even though the lake is putrid, full of weeds, poluted, and just plain stinks at times. My first cousin who still lives back there, not on the lake though, is convinced prices were driven up by ‘wealthy retirees from Ohio’. The largest city in the county is Jamestown, an old mill town. Population 30K, down from 50K in the 50’s. Now that most of the mills have closed average household income in 27K. That’s correct, 27K! Guess to him even any average Ohioan is wealthy.
Took a look at a Chautauqua County Realty site. Lots over overprice no-style 1930 - 1950 monstrosity on the market with no takers. A few are ’sale pending’, but the sale just keeps pending and pending and pending…
You stated my assertion exactly VegasSoldin2005. The millionares aren’t coming. They don’t exist. If they did, upstate NY would be at the bottom of their destination list.
Exeter, if you’re not going to say the people from upstate NY are stupid rubes, I will…
The people from upstate New York are stupid rubes.
There, I said it.
You and exeter would probably enjoy each other’s company.
I new a few from our town in Ohio who used to own properties in Chautauqua. One was a doctor and the other a wealthy millionaire. Didn’t know anyone poor buying over there, but it may be different now.
Chautauqua actually has one amazing cultural amenity, the original Chautauqua Institute:
http://www.ciweb.org/
I have never been there, but my best friend rents a cottage there every summer and brings her large extended family there and they have a terrific time. There is also one in Boulder.
“a 40k/yr schlep appears to be loaded in their eyes.”
You’re obviously not from around here
…(where I am in CNY).
Last year, I had a good friend who’s husband was closing in on $300k’s proclaim if she had to live on $65k, which I had guessed was the average in this town, she would kill herself…A bit different than your picture.
By the way, her husband tests at genius level. She’s probably somewhere up there herself. She lived next to the guy “who can take your brain out and put it back together again”. Down the street are the trust fund kids (my age really) who bought the 6000 foot lakefront mansion for something to do. On the other side of town is the college student who’s parents bought the sprawling horse farm for her for a graduation gift. I’m just an observer among this league but still I’m not really sure why people feel the need to paint everyone as dubba’s up here, exeter.
No idea. Don’t know much about the dubba’s in your area. I’m only familiar with the dubbas in mine.
“No idea.”
You’ve made that perfectly clear.
Spike,
It’s easier to just admit you misunderstood my post than to continued down the sanctimonious trail of denial.
Try it sometime. Life is much more pleasant.
“Moreover, mortgage-backed bonds are usually sold with legally binding commitments that create more obstacles for delinquent borrowers. For example, reductions in loan amounts are often needed to keep people from losing homes, but mortgage-backed bonds are usually sold with prohibitions against forgiving loan principal, except in rare cases, said McCoy, the UConn professor.”
I wonder brokers make this clear to the poor FBs. That is one heck of a Catch 22.
there should be an “if” in there
Someone in the editing department must have made an error. This plot has Snidely Whiplashes all over the place but Dudley Do-Right is nowhere to be found.
no it was my bad
Dunkin’ brew hadn’t kicked in yet!
i was referring to the defaulting borrowers..
as far as correcting mistypes and spell errors, i been on the net long enough to defy anyone to write something so messed up that i cannot decipher it without their help.
Oh, you did a rather fine flip…
flip:
v. to force oneself to vomit, esp. among horse-racing jockeys.
i.e. “Techincolor Yawn” (a Great Aussie term)
“‘People see these shows on HGTV and think they can flip,’ said Martinez. ‘They don’t have the contacts or the knowledge to recognize they’re getting false numbers.’”
‘“‘People see these shows on HGTV and think they can flip,’ said Martinez. ‘They don’t have the contacts or the knowledge to recognize they’re getting false numbers.’”
- Here in California everyone has the idea that they need to push their chips ‘All In’. I saw a new Hummer last week with the license plate ‘Mr All In’. The desire to have something immediately for nothing is like a drug or a right in this state. And the younger you are - the more they feel they deserve it.
Maybe I should prepare to sell barrels with “Mr All In” written across the front and back of the barrel. They’ll be the “in thing” pretty soon.
From the Capital News 9 article: “We sold property too high. We took the prices too high. And the real estate market was created by the realtors,” said Tom Marks of Coldwell Banker in Schenectady.
Marks said a few people bought overpriced homes, and that overpriced the entire market.
“Now we got to get back to reality and get it back on track. And it’s up to the home-buyers to see that them prices cannot be gotten,” he said.
Duh????
It’s so true that this recent RE market was created ,while fundamentals didn’t matter anymore .Loan qualifications were created ,demand was created ,supply was created by builders ,and everyone wanted into this mass-marketed investment scheme.
To bad the realtors/mortgage agents didn’t advise the buyers
to only buy what they could afford in 2002 or sooner .
As you notice ,this realtor is saying that it’s up to homebuyers “to see that them prices cannot be gotten”. Wow ,this is a real change of tune from one the prior cheerleaders .
I saw this dynamic just this year. In early spring a house in Pullman, WA went on the market that had just sold last summer. THe sellers, making no improvements at all, priced to break even given transactions costs at both ends–roughly 10% over purchase price last year. A 21-year old with Dad’s money came in for the weekend, saw all 5 houses on the market, and bought this one to live in at list.
Boom, all of the realtors in town used this single sale to decide that Pullman prices were going up 10% this year. Now inventory is languishing, prices are falling, etc… But along the way, Realtors convinced an awful lot of buyers and sellers that a “fair” price was 10% over last years comps.
When you have jerks buying with easy money ,after they watch Flip That House ,its not a good appraisal comp. to establish value . You got a drunk ,brainwashed buyer, who is really just a short term gambler ,that thinks everyone else is stupid enough to give them a short term big profit .The really stupid part is that this flipper buyer sets up a time bomb to sell or go broke ,and many times these flippers use their credit cards to make the mortgage payments .
I am really pissed that the industry would create such a false market of unstable buyers that pushed prices and taxes up and priced “real buyers ” out of the market .Now the industry wants to find real end user buyers that are stupid enough to take these inflated houses off the hands of the low down gamblers and traveling locust that spread out across America .
What a mess .
As usual, very well said.
BZH @8.40 - 5.59. It’s a mad rush to be first to fail now. . .
Yeah - a big OUCH for all the homebuilders today - most are down 10-15% currently, with Beazer down 40%. Certainly the worst single day *ever* in the stock market for homebuilders.
I say bring it on - they’re hitting my short cover targets.
Maybe they’ll finally stop bulldozing the forests and farms around me.
Halleleujah - I’m having a religious experience!! lettum crash hard.
Bummer though, not really pulling the DOW down like I thought it might today. Really hard to find that Elliott wave. Yesterday was easy though.
Yeah but I think about 2 or 3 yesterday the dow was up 20-30 pts and by 4 down by 146.
Oh, man. That is one UGLY BZH chart. The chart says possible bankruptcy. Not assured at this point, but it has that look.
I sincerely doubt that BZH was doing things that Pulte, KBH, TOL, and others weren’t doing.
When the tide goes out, you can see who was swimming naked.
When the tide goes out, you can see who was swimming naked.
From what I’ve been reading here, the tide is going to take the naked swimmers with it.
Back up now, along with the rest of the market, after they denied the rumor of bankruptcy.
Amazing how one small company can drive the market like that.
When you stop to think of it, its unbelieveable that homebuilders could become large enough to be pubicly traded companies on the major exchanges.
Also, these must be the first publicly held companies where the lion’s share of the work was done by illegal immigrants.
Give me single homebuilders who build one or two houses a year. They do a good job, because their living depends on it. Ours was built by two brothers who work alone on a couple houses a year, and ours is one of the most solidly built houses around. In 21 years, we’ve never found a problem. If they’re out to make lots of money, believe me every corner they can cut will put more dollars in their pockets.
“‘The reality is, from 2003 to 2006 you had a very, very, very strong real estate market,’ Storti said.”
(snip)
…The mortgage market is becoming tighter because a lot of people who received loans in the last three or four years are defaulting on them.’”
He’s contradicting himself. If the buyers couldn’t afford the real estate, the market wasn’t strong.
Maybe he means strong in terms of the commissions the realtors were generating.
You can see stocks up and down all day. Seems like a constant tug of war between investors and the PPT.
My thoughts exactly. Especially yesterday.
I think it is more a tug-of-war between
the people that see reality on one side,
and the people that are drinking the kool-ade and the big banks that are doing everything they can to make this not be their end on the other.
A few months ago CNBC was full of stories lamenting the lack of individual investors in the market….. HEY YOU GUYS, YOU’RE MISSING OUT ON THE GAINS.
Well, as the individual investor did show up, they were more likely to be shorting than buying the market.
No more requests for the individual investor to come and be the bag holder.
But the big banks are thought to be co-conspirators within the PPT. Chopper Ben, the Treasury, SEC & CFTC can’t go it alone. They use the big banks. No?
It is a new game. It has been since July 2005 when the public home builder’s insiders sold at the top but it’s reinsuring that NAR say “the worst might be over”. How can we not believe such an upstanding group, who could not benefit in anyway by such reinsurance. We haven’t been so reinsured since Ken Lay retaking the reins of Enron in 2002.
It is a new game. It has been since July 2005 when the public home builder’s insiders sold at the top but it’s reinsuring that NAR say “the worst might be over”. How can we not believe such an upstanding group, who could not benefit in anyway by such reinsurance. We haven’t been so reinsured since Ken Ley retaking the reins of Enron in 2002.
“The Beggs family…put the home on the market a year ago. Since then, the family has been through three realtors, and they’ve knocked $10,000 off the original price. ‘It makes you want to cry, it does,’
Yeah, I’d be crying if I was a Realtor dealing with these ninnys. When does one come along with some tough love and get it through their thick heads the price needs to be much lower ?
Wow $10,000! off what I bet is around a 900k asking price. where do i sign?!
I am watching 200k homes here in michigan drop 20-30k to sell them.
No Kidding. Didn’t the Realtor and journalist see the stupidity of this situation. An entire year on the market with three different agents and they have only lowered the price $10k?! One stupid family and three very stupid agents.
I’ve seen $300k off $1M homes in metro west (MA) before being pulled of the market. Sellers are in fantasy land.
My friend on the lake is now down $100k from last year. But it may still be overpriced. That’s a bloated end of the market right now. I’m wondering if she’s gonna have to come down another $50-$100k.
Quick.
Tune in to CNBC they are about to tell us how to make money in today’s economy. And listen to Bob Pisani explain how market does just fine on days where there is no bad news like in housing or financial.
The Boston Herald from Massachusetts. “A few years ago, a client of Cambridge real estate consultant Paul Martinez saw a two-family Somerville house as a prime chance at a second income. The 30-year-old novice investor had seen ‘flipping’ on reality shows dozens of times. But 18 months later, this buyer was learning to tile and wire. He purchased at the top of the market and had run out of money on the brink of the housing slump, and the condos sat on a deflated market, overpriced by $60,000. Before long, foreclosure loomed.”
Those TV flipping shows are pure propoganda. Idiots who make every mistake in the book - go on vacation - and still make a profit. When they start having shows on people who flipped and lost it all, then this madness may start to end…
The same thing happened to me when I bought a Bedazzler to sell rhinestone studded jeans based upon the great TV commecial.
Damn you Calvin Klein!!
Anyone need any used but good rhinestones?
Last Satruday there were 4 eposides of property ladder in a row showing people losing money.
First they were targeting people who wanted to make easy money (which is everybody). Now they’re targeting people who enjoy Schadenfrued (which is everbody).
The fact that they’re already moved over to watching people choke on it for entertainment means they’re more on the ball than the realtors. (or at least are willing to admit it.)
Has anyone noticed that the show “Buy Me” has steered away from showing houses in the USA, they concentrate on houses in Canada.
Jawdropper…
“This year in New York, more than 30 percent of subprime, adjustable mortgage loans will see new interest rates for the first time, with approximately 25 percent re-setting next year, according to the state Banking Department. Many loans that originated last year will go from 8.4 percent to 11.4 percent, according to state figures.”
GS,
if I’m reading this correctly, this means this year, 2007…say about October re the Credit Suisse charts? Talk about walking on thin ice.
Right GS . These were just really great loans . You got a 11.4 interest rate in a 6% market …real great …real affordable ….all these buyers can afford this rise in payments . Nuts
Wow, just did a quick calc, and a $300K loan payment would go UP BY $700 per month. Uh oh. October, I keep saying October. I hope I’m right.
“This year in New York, more than 30 percent of subprime, adjustable mortgage loans will see new interest rates for the first time”
But the unanswered question is: how many subprime ARMs are there (in NY)? Apologies if that’s mentioned in the article I neglected to read.
I love the smell of napalm in the morning
cannot wait to read the stories of “former hedge fund trader forced into foreclosure on luxury condo”
now that will be sweet
This guy Cramer Cracks me up. He looks like a retard and reminds me of Dustin Hoffman character in Rainman. This is a guy who has been saying BUY BUY BUY and Now he is saying “If your house is down 20% — Walk Away”
http://videoplayer.thestreet.com/?clipId=1373_10371063&channel=Cramer+On+Demand&cm_ven=&cm_cat=&cm_ite=&puc=yahoo&ts=1185982379187
Will there be any accountability for these jerks?
“He looks like a retard” His previous job was BOZO the clown, but the kids weren’t laughing at him, so CNBC brought him to the airwaves, and found a whole new audience to YUK it up.
So he actually raises a question I have wondered about.
Say you “own” a house and have a $300k mortgage on it and the house is worth less than the mortgage balance. Let’s say the house only sells now for $200k. Now let’s assume the “owner” has money in the bank and could still afford the mortgage or come up with the difference but no longer wants the house and just wants to get out of it. Is it a good idea to simply go into foreclosure on the home, get hit with the tax implication and the negative credit ramifications than to pay off the $100k that would be owed on the home assuming the “owner” couldn’t short sell the home with the mortgage company.
The way I see it the “owner” could keep his $100k instead of taking the full loss on the home and would simply only owe the $100k tax implication to the feds but would still have his cash. Granted there are credit score issues but that seems worth it if one is cash rich and just wants to unload the home and rent for several years instead.
I do not listen to this monkey. If I ask my 8 year old and give him a pen with the stock symbols he may come up with recommendation that will rival Cramer’s recommendation but my son does not have a following of retards
I saw Cramer for the 1st time the other day, when I turned on the TV to catch closing market numbers. That guy is on speed. After watching him for 5 minutes, I felt I’d just gotten off a roller coaster. Heart pounding, head spinning, and all the while wondering what the h*** just happened.
i only hope that i can positively identify anyone who does this so i’m sure to never accidently get involved with or do any business with this person in the future.
It seems the monkey himself read this blog in these comments. So was his reference to calling him monkey and Walk Away. To Mr. Monkey, what would you suggest to those who bought home builders that you have been pumping for past 1-2 years? Thanks for recognizing yourself as a monkey.
there are Beazer bankruptcy rumors out there. Why the homies are cratering.
I dumped all shorts and puts into this spike down this a.m. under the 200 day and will reload when things bounce.
I’ve had a death in my family and will probably be gone for awhile. I hope you guys are all enjoying this carnage.
Later.
Sorry to hear that txchick. Blog with you soon.
With sympathy, Txchick. So sorry for your loss.
Also sorry to hear it. Most of the stuff on this board might seem superficial, but I’m sure I’m not alone in saying: We look forward to you posting again when you return.
Take care Txchick.
Sorry to hear that, txchick57. We look forward to your return.
Sympathies regarding your loss txchick.
Sorry for your loss. We’ll look forward to seeing you back when the time is right for you.
He TXchick:
i lost my father a year ago, and i still miss him, he was just a fun person to talk to. he was always on his computer with his friends, rode motorcycles till he was 75, Probably the youngest 87 year old you would ever meet.
i turned orphan last year .. was trying to think of something soothing to say to txchick about a loss but realized my family has suffered deaths in the young, old and the inbetweens for as long as i can remember .. nothing to say except something vague and patronizing like “and this too shall pass.”
My sympathies…
Sorry for your loss, and for our loss in your absence. Take care.
Offering my sympathies….take all the time you need. You’ll be missed.
Our thoughts and prayers are with you. Hurry back, tx!
Sorry to hear that tx, come back as soon as you can and hang in there.
“‘We have to brace ourselves,’ says Sarah Ludwig, NEDAP’s executive director. ‘It’s going to get worse before it gets better.’”
I think she meant to say:
‘It’s going to get worse before it gets worser.’
So just what does “contained” really mean?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19915024/
Oh, I read down a few threads and see that Briny Breezes fell apart. I thought it would take longer than this. But you know, I really thought it would be a great idea to sell an option on the windfall immediately after it came for a 25-30% discount (for cash) and said so several times here. If someone had done that, they’d have a wad of dough plus their trailer. Of course, I doubt many Briny Breezes folk are literate enough to read this blog. Too bad. I know that if it had been me, I’d have sold down to 50% of the deal to get cash.
I suspect that the recent sharp 5% increase in pending home sales has a lot to do with people being unable to close because they can’t get financing. I wonder if we have anyway to find out how many pending sales are stuck because of financing or because the buyer can’t sell his old house.
Also does anyone collect stats on the rate at which pending sales convert to closings ?
Spin baby spin.
I was wondering this too. If the pending straddles a month (or 2 or 3) then is it counted again? Like they are just piling up on each other, leading to an “increase”?
I can tell you as a former agent many, many contracts do not close. Home inspections bomb, buyers’ financing tanks, or sellers’ contract on the house they were buying expires and sometimes it’s a domino effect on how many pendings don’t close. If I had to guess just from 7 years in my office, I’d say 30-40% don’t go thru.
I purchase surplus IT hardware, and have over 460 HP servers coming in from Ameriquest and we will be housing the equipment also from New Century here as well. I talked to AHM and they were….different they were not needing to change their IT profile they were just fine….HA! Talked to him this morning, not so smug anymore and not so sure that they were expanding and not needing my help anymore. Looks like another company with tons of IT equipment for me to scoop up.
Expect sales at IBM, Dell, HP and Sun to drop as near new resale equipment floods the market.
Got any superdomes?
Had one come by the other day from Belkin, I believe they still have it pretty much useless now I offered them I think 25k for it. Pretty sick…1 mil original cost resale now 25k.
What do you do with them after you purchase? Harvest the gold?
Nope harvest the procs and the mem and sell it to end users, most of the Fortune 1000.
Wow…
“Bear Stearns Hedge Funds File for Bankruptcy Protection”
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070801/bear_funds.html?.v=3
Why? I thought Bear Stearns itself had bailed them out. What am I missing?
they want to stall or avoid the raft of investor lawsuits sure to come.
First lawsuit just filed…
http://www.cnbc.com/id/20068091
No one showed up for the auction a few weeks ago if I remember correctly. I think at this point its safe to conclude that what Bear Stearns did by leveraging subprime loans is a total and complete failed science experiment. Now we get to find out how many other banks were in the lab with them.
Filed for Chapter 15-cross border bankruptcy, because the funds are registered in the Cayman Islands.
Bear Stearns has another Hedge Fund in trouble. Also, to add icing to the cake, the lawsuits against them are piling up.
OT - This whole thing is starting to make me a bit uneasy about the cash I have sitting in accounts at BofA, Ingdirect, Etrade, etc. Any thoughts on this? Oh yeah, I don’t mean to get a thread started here on the devaluing of the dollar, M1, M3, etc. I’m legitimately concerned about the ability to get all of my $ out of these institutions when the time comes.
Mean Time to be a seller in Greenwich…
“Ron Bruce, an agent for Coldwell Banker Elite who is selling Ocasio’s home in East Greenwich, said he reduced the price to $349,000 with hopes of making it move. ‘Right now is a great time for a buyer to buy,’ Bruce said. ‘They can keep shopping until they find a good deal.’”
‘It makes you want to cry, it does,’ said Tracy Beggs. ‘It’s really frustrating not getting the interest in the house when I know there’s nothing wrong with it.’”
——————————————————————————-
There IS something very wrong with it. The price is MUCH too high.
Damn, only 1/2 an hour til the closing bell, and they seem to be trying desperately to close up for a day.
Sudden upshot with no new news reported 15 minutes before the end of the day. Totally desperate. Watch them tout this tomorrow morning.
Well, there it is. Up 153.39 today. I’m going to be looking for two things tomorrow.
1. Idiots like Kramer and Baritomo saying how great this is, and economy strong, bla bla bla.
2. An opening down. Way down.
BTW, EVERY index in the world was down today, fearing US problems, but the US is up. Dangerous and desperate!
Methinks Cramer spent last weekend lurking on here and got a crash course in things that go crash, with all their might…