A Fine Line Between What’s Enough And What’s Too Much
The Emporia Gazette reports from Kansas. “There seems to be a lot of homes for sale these days in Emporia. ‘We have probably the most inventory for this time of year that we’ve had in the last 10 years,’ said Maurice Schmidt, (who) has been in the real-estate business for 30 years. ‘Is this a crisis?’ Schmidt said. ‘Absolutely not.’”
“Schmidt said he personally believes that people in the Midwest are reading and watching national media. ‘It’s kinda like they think ‘Gosh, real estate activity is down on the coast…why isn’t it here?’’ Schmidt said. ‘And maybe there’s a little nervousness if you will.’”
The News Leader from Missouri. “According to data supplied by the Springfield Urban Neighborhoods Alliance, Greene County is experiencing a dramatic spike in home foreclosures. For the most recent 12-month period, August 2006 to July 2007, there were 635 foreclosures, a 40 percent increase over the same period a year ago.”
“‘The housing market has always been cyclical, but what is unprecedented this time is the whole subprime issue and how the nature of lending has changed,’ said Brian Fogle of Great Southern Bank. ‘People are not losing jobs.’”
“‘We lowered so many barriers that we put a lot of folks in homes who should not be in the homes,’ Fogle said. ‘There’s a fine line between what’s enough and what’s too much.’”
“This is a stark contrast to the euphoria of just a few years ago when the barriers to homeownership seemed to melt away and many families saw their American Dream come true. ‘A lot of that was a good thing,’ said Fogle. ‘Our homeownership peaked in 2005 at 69.4 percent.’”
“Said Tonya Collister, of Consumer Credit Counseling Services of Springfield: ‘The industry should have known … you can’t put anybody in a home.’”
“Asked whether there is a silver lining amid this flood of foreclosures, Collister paused and said: ‘In the long run, the economics may come back to an even keel. On the local level, I can’t think of a silver lining.’”
The Rockford Register Star from Illinois. “The free-flowing, easy credit days of 2003 to mid-2006 opened the door to homeownership for millions of people who could not dream of qualifying for mortgages before.”
“To people such as Tim Hoffman, who makes his living managing about 60 single-family rental homes in Rockford, it was something entirely different. He called it ‘the perfect storm.’”
“The vast number of first-time buyers pushed home prices — and tax assessments and tax bills for everyone else — to record levels and left rental property owners with a dwindling pool of tenants to choose from.”
“‘If I was renting a house for $500 a month and that tenant bought a house, I couldn’t find anybody to qualify for $500,’ Hoffman said. ‘And there was this huge glut of rentals on the market, guys in the same situation. I had the option of letting it sit empty or dropping it to $450.’”
“But the good times for iffy borrowers and overeager lenders couldn’t last. And landlords may be the one segment of the economy benefiting from the sudden tightening of credit that’s keeping many from homes they can no longer afford.”
“‘I am seeing an upswing of applications from people who have lost their houses. It’s not like it was four or five years ago, but things are getting a bit better,’ said Hoffman.”
“The Census Bureau, through its ongoing American Community Survey, released this week 2005 housing stats for areas of more than 65,000. According to the survey, the number of owner-occupied housing units in Winnebago County increased 4.5 percent from 2000, but the number of renter-occupied units fell 6.1 percent and the number of vacant units nearly doubled from 6,424 to 12,302.”
“Landlords weren’t making up for the increased vacancies through rents either. The median rents grew from $514 in 2000 to $585 in 2005, an annual increase of 2.8 percent, which barely outpaced the annual rate of inflation of 2.6 percent.”
“‘When I first got into this, my criteria was XYZ and I wasn’t going to rent to someone who didn’t meet the criteria,’ he said. ‘As banks dropped their lending criteria, I had to lower my criteria to X, Y and Z or I was going to have houses sitting empty. You can have some, but too many and you go broke. Now you are seeing more evictions.’”
“Vince Miosi owns two rental houses and nearly a dozen apartment buildings. To fill apartments he did have to cut deals on security deposits because competition for good renters was so fierce.”
“‘That’s really tough on landlords,” said Miosi, who has been a landlord since 1986, the past 11 years in the Rockford area. Miosi, who like Hoffman is on the board of directors for the Rockford Apartment Association, said he stood up at a meeting and implored landlords to cut back on incentives like lower security deposits or offering the first month free before everyone went broke.”
“‘You’ve heard of buyer’s markets, this was a renter’s market,’ Miosi said. ‘I’d get calls and the first thing a guy would ask is how many months’ free rent am I offering.’”
“The tenants who stayed with Miosi were affected as well because, he said, when he had a lot of vacancies he ‘didn’t have the cash flow to make improvements to the properties.’”
The Daily Herald from Illinois. “Tall grass. Homes in disrepair. For-sale signs clustered in a single neighborhood. Suburban leaders say they are concerned when they see these things, red flags that foreclosure is looming, or that it has already happened.”
“Round Lake Mayor Bill Gentes’ village had 60 foreclosures in 2006, according to data on the six-county Chicago area compiled by the Woodstock Institute. Last year was the first year town-by-town data was collected.”
“‘The American dream is homeownership,’ Gentes said. ‘It’s not foreclosure.’”
“Gentes said he’s concerned about one Round Lake subdivision now marked by abandoned homes, clusters of for-sale signs and other signs of distress. Problems at the four-year-old Lakewood Grove subdivision stem in part from individual investors who bought a number of homes with the idea of unloading them for a quick profit, Gentes said. He said 10 to 15 homes have been abandoned at Lakewood Grove.”
“Some investors purchased houses and used a rent-to-own concept to lure occupants with poor or shaky credit. Gentes said the downfall came when the owners dramatically hiked the monthly payments because of higher taxes, sending the residents fleeing and leaving empty homes.”
“Carpentersville had 212 foreclosures or 30.26 per 1,000 owner-occupied units in 2006. ‘I certainly see it as a problem for all communities where people are on the bubble or the bubble has burst beneath them,’ said Carpentersville Village President Bill Sarto.”
The Chicago Tribune from Illinois. “In an ideal market, families with an annual median income of $69,800 should be able to afford a median-price, single-family home, but in DuPage County that’s only about half the wages needed to buy that $360,000 house, according to a new report.”
“At best, that income could support a home priced at $200,000, according to an official at the DuPage Homeownership Center. And few of those homes are available in DuPage, real estate agents say. The DuPage median income is only 55 percent of what’s needed to buy a median-price house in the county, the report states.”
“‘The conventional wisdom is that a family earning the median income for a given area should be able to afford the median-priced home in that area,’ said said Dru Bergman, executive director of the Homeownership Center. ‘An index of 100 would mean that the market is in balance. Clearly in DuPage, with an index of just 55, housing prices are far outpacing the incomes of many working families.’”
“And indexes from previous years indicate a worsening situation, the report states. Last year’s index was 59, and in 2005 it was 63.”
The New York Times on Ohio. “Tami and Charles Eggleston never took out a risky mortgage, never borrowed more than they could afford and never missed a monthly payment on their neat, three-bedroom colonial in the Cleveland suburbs. But that hasn’t prevented them from getting caught in the undertow of the subprime mortgage mess now submerging this town.”
“Over the last 18 months, the Egglestons have watched one house after another on their street end up foreclosed and vacant. Although lawns are still tidy and empty homes are not boarded up and stripped as they are in inner-city Cleveland, the Egglestons say Maple Heights no longer feels safe after dark.”
“In May 2006, they put their home on the market in order to move closer to Mrs. Eggleston’s parents in another middle-class Cleveland suburb, Richmond Heights.”
“They have had no takers. Although they lowered the asking price to $99,000 from $109,000, no one has even come to look at it in more than six weeks.”
“‘My heart panics every time I drive down the street and I see another for-sale sign,’ says Mrs. Eggleston, pointing past the placards in front of her porch to others that dot surrounding yards like lawn furniture. ‘Some people on the street couldn’t pay, so they just left. The competition to sell is just ridiculous.’”
“Analysts also say that the fallout from mortgages gone bad is spreading well beyond borrowers now in default. It has begun to engulf middle-class communities like Maple Heights, where nearly 10 percent of the houses — or 910 properties — have been seized by banks in the last two years.”
“Many of these loans were made in 2005 and early 2006, when standards were at their most lax and cities like this were blanketed with aggressive pitches from mortgage providers.”
“‘I don’t think we’ve hit bottom,’ says Michael G. Ciaravino, the mayor of Maple Heights. ‘My fear is that foreclosure rates could go to double where they are today.’”
Check out these comments from the Kansas link:
‘Posted by emporian. ‘Or maybe it is the overpriced housing in this town. Maybe it is the fact that nobody can afford a house in this town. Thats why I moved into a smaller community. I paid 63,000 for my home. Banker said someone came with the same house in Emporia and they were asking 98,000.’
‘Posted by johncanyon. I agree Emporian. I moved out of town about 4 years ago and bought a 3 bedroom, 2 bath, ranch style house on 5 acres for $76,000. I am sure that same house and property here in Emporia would be double that price.’
No national bubble, MSM?
Add to that the latest USC 2 part release that shows no growth in the median wage. Why these issues aren’t bigger news, I have no idea.
Facts like these tend to get in the way of what the MSM wants to report, that’s why.
Also, on the previous thread, someone was asking about ave. rents, vacany rates, etc. You can find the spurious returns from the last My community estimates here:
http://www.census.gov/acs/www/UseData/2006GQ.html
Another USC page for very brief returns is:
http://factfinder.census.gov/home/saff/main.html
Nice if you want to just want general numbers by county.
For the MSM, it’s effect and cause. Until they see an effect (foreclosures) they will not look for a cause (credit bubble). Of course, they won’t find a credit bubble, only evil predatory lenders
Gwynster,
Do you have a link? That’s HUGE!
Thanks in advance,
Neil
Neil, I could have sworn CNNMoney coveed it briefly.
I wrote up and posted with links to the various UCS sections of interest. I’m hoping it magically appears at some point.
I did post a small piece on Placer county on my blog showing PCI, MHI, and average home prices. I just haven’t had the time much more yet.
The myths that have been exposed……………
(1) There is no national bubble
(2) “Goldilocks”
(3) Real Estate always goes up.
(4) It’s all contained.
[5] tapping your toes in the mens restroom, while on the toity, is not a symptom of RLS.
Emporia…Tornado Alley isn’t that? Grandma Beryl described how her family moved to Burdett when she was a child, from Colorado, by horse and wagon. She said she walked most of the way. She also told how they had no harvest on the farm during the dust bowl for THREE YEARS. They stuck with it.
When those folks are alarmed, the rest of us are already toasted.
“Asked whether there is a silver lining amid this flood of foreclosures, Collister paused and said: ‘In the long run, the economics may come back to an even keel. On the local level, I can’t think of a silver lining.’”
Here’s a silver lining. Many of those foreclosures everybody is worried about are against people that didn’t put a penny down for the downpayment, and never paid a penny of principal. They RENTED the house from the bank for interest (sometimes not even all of that). They are “losing” a house they didn’t put an iota of equity into. Boo-fricking-hoo.
Bringing economics back to an even keel on a national basis after this clusterf!$k will be huge (but painful).
The silver lining: Once the market corrects, people with median incomes will once again be able to afford median homes.
Oh, stop the crazy talk.
“Analysts also say that the fallout from mortgages gone bad is spreading well beyond borrowers now in default. It has begun to engulf middle-class communities like Maple Heights, where nearly 10 percent of the houses — or 910 properties — have been seized by banks in the last two years.”
These are the real victims in this housing crisis. The people who worked hard and paid off or almost paid off their mortgage are living in neighborhoods that are deteriorating fast because of the abandoned and foreclosed houses. Crime is up, safety is down, and I’m sure the rodent and mosquito population is growing.
Play by the rules and get screwed.
We bailed out the S&L in 90-92 and now, we get to bail out the hedge funds.
And all those bright politicians can’t figure out why the avg joe can’t get ahead.
“These are the real victims in this housing crisis. The people who worked hard and paid off or almost paid off their mortgage are living in neighborhoods that are deteriorating fast”
Everyone should take heed. A house is a fixed asset (cannot be moved) and because of that it means that one should take stock of the neighborhood (streets, safety, businesses moving out, demographic changes that my affect the aged, etc) and scrutinize it on a semiannual basis as with any investment. I’ll admit that after I sold out in summer of 2004, I was not aware of any of these factors until I revisited the neighborhood 6 months later. This is just another factor keeping from wanting to jump back into the game a little early, unless the neighborhood has been seasoned for the past 40 years.
unless the neighborhood has been seasoned for the past 40 years
Interesting use of the term “seasoned”. In MBS/CDO parlance, a mortgage can be considered “seasoned” in as little as six months!
To me a ’seasoned’ neighborhood is one that doesn’t have a high turnover rate,has large trees,has houses and roads that don’t show settling, is not an island surrounded by ghetto, close in to amenities, single story houses that are a godsend to the elderly, etc.
every time I’ve bought a house, I’ve spent some time talking to the neighbors first. interesting what you can learn. actually saved me from a couple of big mistakes
People like quick fixes in this country, sorry this problem isn’t going to be a little crazy glue and all is well?
OT warning…
Has anyone else noticed some really crazy credit card offers showing up in their mailbox recently? I have (prior to 8 months ago) never had a CC with a limit over 10K. Now I have 2 that are pushing 50K each. Also, Amex called me up and asked my a few month ago if I would like to raise my limit (it was 10K). I had never had this happen before, so I was kind of taken aback and asked them what I could ask for. They told me 30K would go through with a “credit review process”.
I honestly could buy a Ferrari on credit cards right now. I have never heard of people having credit limits where you could buy a car, no problem, on one credit card.
This is not bragging, btw, my credit score is good (over 720) but not incredible (under 800). Also, my income is relatively high, but not off the charts. I just wonder if I am noticing a trend in the credit industry, or if this is something more isolated to my particular situation?
I still think CCs with 50K limits are just stupid for almost everyone (including me, if I charged 50K in one month……oh my god!).
Sorry, that should have read:
“without a credit review process”.
Srry.
I just got the same kind of offer in the mail Michael .
I also got a notice from the property tax man that they are going to lower my tax bill ,(they didn’t say by how much yet ).
The one I keep getting in the mail is for an unsecured line of credit for 7.9% with a 50K limit.
You know what’s really funny about that offer? I could use that line of credit and SAVE MONEY as opposed to having a 1st and 2nd MTG. From my understanding, getting 100% financing puts your 2nd MTG note around 8.5%, although, as with all things in the credit market, it probably depends on the day.
Something is not right in the world when your unsecured credit lines are cheaper then the secured lines!
be careful, they can change the credit rate w/o warning
I shut those offers off by going to:
https://www.optoutprescreen.com
Give it a try — it sure worked for me!
I shut those offers off also, don’t miss them one bit. I would also reccommend giving it a try.
Lost,
If they change the rate you can refuse. Shuts off your credit and you pay the last rate until the loan is paid. not too many can go cold turkey off the credit line.
Since HELOCs are no longer possible, the CC Cos are figuring J6P will switch his spending to CC.
Maybe true, but J6P is MAXED how will he pay back a CC. Does AmEx think they can repossess last nights dinner?
If your maxed, pay cash for stuff and charge food, clothes, etc. Stuff they can’t repo. If you pay cash for the big screen, AmEx can’t repo it.
Well, I think that might be part of the idea, but what a stupid plan!
Do the CC companies really want to get involved in the bailout of these idiots; does anyone think that CC debt is going to be paid before housing debt?
Again, this is just my personal experience, but I was wondering if anyone else has seen an “easing” of credit card limits, or has experienced anything like this over the past year.
I am going to go buy a Ferrari on my cards. All these loans are unsecured, I will buy the Ferrari and declare bankrupcy. Yeah, that’s a plan! For idiots!!
CC will be paid before housing, it already is.
For once Crazy Cramer was right about bailing on the house and saving the CC
You need a CC to rent a car, get a hotel room, buy ann airplane ticket, etc etc. None of these people ask if you had a foreclosure.
http://tinyurl.com/2sygq5
Credit card companies woo struggling mortgage-holders
This is tooooooo much.
Thanks for the link, Leighsong. I found this part interesting:
Direct mail credit card offers to subprime customers in the United States jumped 41 percent in the first half of this year, compared with the first half in 2006, according to Mintel International Group. Direct mail offers targeted at customers with the best credit fell more than 13 percent.
I have very good credit and I used to get at least two cc offers or more per week. I don’t think I have had any in the last six weeks. I’m not sure why this is happening. I usually carry a small balance on my one card from month to month, so I am paying interest.
Actually, I’ve recently noticed a dramatic increase of credit offers, both for myself personally, and more my business. Citibank, in particular, seems intent on setting me up with a $100K credit line. No thanks. I don’t know if this is typical or just because I have close to an 800 FICO score, though.
“… does anyone think CC debt is going to be paid before housing debt?”
Crazy as it sounds, I think that is exactly what will happen. There are those FBers that are so far underwater that they have given up on trying to keep up with their mortgage payments. But they want to keep up with their CC payments to maintain their heavily financed lifestyles. Since these lifestyles can no longer be financed by accessing home equity their CCs are the only options left for them.
Well, in that case (and I am not saying your wrong, only that conventional wisdom is opposite your stance) then it makes sense that CCs have lower interest rates then MTG notes.
I guess when you have home depreciating in value the normal models don’t work at ALL anymore. True, just about everything you buy on a CC depreciates, but at least it does not bleed you dry with taxes, insurance and crushing debt.
Housing has never really had a large deflationary spiral before in this country; we are about to have one. I think that this CC disparity is just one example of this coming storm. Debt secured by a rapidly depreciating asset is worth less then debt secured by nothing at all!
Furthur irony…
Those FBers that walk away from their expensive mortgages will have more disposible income to make their CC payments with, thus are the prime candidates CC companies will want to target.
“I was wondering if anyone else has seen an “easing” of credit card limits.”
Yes, I have. I have low 6 figure income and 760 credit score, and at least once a month one of my 3 cards sends me a “your credit line has been increased” letter. I’m probably up to 75k credit limit now, which I don’t use at all. Cash for everything.
That sounds pretty similar to my situation (although my credit score is a bit lower). As I am sure you know, having a 6 figure income does not mean that a 75K CC limit is “reasonable”!!
Oh, and BTW, I buy EVERYTHING on my CC. When you start running some real money through these cards you can really rack up some huge rewards. I spend ~50-75K a year on my main card (I expense all my employer activities against this card as well, that’s not all personal spending!) and can just about fly first class every single time I fly (which is pretty often) because of all the miles I earn from charging like a drunken sailor!
I just don’t see any disadvantage to using it all the time; it’s always paid off, and the options are:
“Pay cash”
“Pay with the card, get miles, better credit score, pay in 30 days”.
Seems pretty clear to me; although, for some people, not a good idea at all. You should have seen my GF start to think about spending all that money when she saw one of my statements. Exact words out of her mouth:
“We have 20,000 dollars to spend on that card!”
Hmmm… Not exactly the way I look at it.
Good idea. I don’t really trust myself to put everything on my cards and pay it off each month though to be honest. Too tempting to make partial payments and get in trouble in Vegas, as I have done in the past. Plus none of my cards have rewards, so I would have to apply for a new card that has those rewards. I may do so in the future….
They will take them to court and garnish the FB’s wages for life at absurdly high interest rates and fees. It’s called debt slavery.
The house and mortgage can be made to go away in bankruptcy, puff! The CCs cannot so easily.
You accidentally struck a nerve there Michael. My 22yo son is receiving gads of offers and he just finished school! (career change).
This url paints a very ugly picture.
http://tinyurl.com/339t7r
Good link.
I remember the same sign-up scams when I was in undergrad and grad school. They’re omnipresent on some campuses.
My kid is only a sophomore (full-time student) and is getting one cc offer per week in the mail.
I put a block on credit reports (no peaking, unless I give permission first), that’s stopped almost all of the offers I used to get.
I did the same. I contacted the credit reporting agencies (Equifax, Fair-Isaac, etc.) after getting nearly 5 offers a week at one point. This can be done for free, despite all the services advertising to do it for you. I rarely see a credit card offer in my mailbox anymore.
Now if I could just stop all the ads for failing condo projects and random refinancing offers…
Salon.com’s How the World Works has links to a couple of articles on how CC companies are targeting subprime homeowners already.
http://tinyurl.com/2koxww
Here’s the original article in case you’re stymied by Salon’s subscription thing:
http://tinyurl.com/2sygq5
Ugh. These guys make my skin crawl.
I’m having a different issue.
Applied for a Amex and was turned down. I have zero debt, all accounts in good standing with no lates, high balance 53k all paid, money in savings, 730 fico, married, 7 yrs with 1 employer, 3 yrs at one residence. The only dark mark I can think of is that I live in exploding defaults hell - Sacramento. I would not be surprised to see anyone in this area turned down just because of location.
You were turned down because you have NO credit. They don’t think that they will make money off of you. You pay cash, save, etc. They want someone who will use plastic to tip the bathroom attendant.
I do use them occasionally, run the Visa up and pay it off in 2 months just so they don’t cancel me. I just did this with some dental work I had been postponing (hate the dentist but freakish about cleanings)
The Amex was a no fee offer. I’ll never agree to an annual fee. Hmm no clue
Like I said, you’re too smart for ‘em. They want someone that they can “milk” or is that “bilk”?
I had two cards canceled for lack of use.
Have you looked at your credit report lately?
There’s always the possibility of some nasty surprises, mistakes, and/or identity theft.
I agree with a jas.
Something is not right here; I have never heard of CC companies closing accounts for non-activity. I just don’t see any possiblie reason for them to do so; providing the “service” is practically free to them (except for the need to send you a new card every 2 years); I don’t see any reason they would want to reduce their number of clients??
Perhaps I am wrong, but I agree, you should check your credit report. Something is not right there; especially that with the preapprovals there is a computer program that typically makes the “decision” to approve or not. Something is not playing out correctly in your credit history; if you are a prime borrower (720+) you should be able to get just about any CC on earth.
I had one recently cancelled due to non-use (the only one I owned). They refused to renew it after 2 yrs of inactivity.
No credit issues. I have a credit monitoring service that issues alerts if something usual happens in that regard (identity theft prevention). So it does happen.
I have had a dozen cards closed for non-activity. It’s SOP.
I only picked up an Amex card when they sent me a pre-approval with the annual fee waived. For the life of me, I can’t figure out why anyone would actually pay an annual fee to have an Amex card.
The Amex commercials where they would always make it sound like a benefit that there is no “predefined spending limit” never made any sense to me either. Personally, I like to know exactly what my credit limit is so I don’t have to guess if my credit card will be accepted or not…!
Good thing the mortgage markets have frozen. It will save many a GF from going into lifetime debt slavery
I wonder how the Title company’s are sleeping lately, If one believes that no one can get an answer to ownership on a foreclosed property. I have to ask how are they guarantied my title when normal everyday deals are buying real estate now?
Throw in the fact that some states give up to 18 months for the FB to pay off the ppast due and reclaim the house (never happens) but its a cloud on the title of a house “owned” by Deutche Bank, serviced by an out of business lender, overseen by a quasi gov’t operation if any of these bail out plans go thru, etc etc.
Who can grant free and clear title. And who in their right mind would write title ins on it.
I’m pretty sure that 18 months only applies to judicial foreclosures, where the lien-holder wants to sue for a deficiency judgement. Trustee’s Sale right of redemption is like 5 days, I think.
And anyway, I’m sure it’s entirely state-dependent.
Yeah, each state is different. After all, doesn’t Louisiana follow some form of Napolionic Code or some such.
But either way, I still see hard times coming trying to get title ins on some of these foreclosures.
I’ll toss in my own off topic.
This Costco thing irks me!
People were all impressed with sales growth early in summer… much better than core inflation. HELLO!!!! Costco sells food and gasoline, and prices of both of those were up WAY more than core inflation!
Gas price starts to slip in late summer, Costco sales increases are at slower pace than earlier in the summer. Analysts are shocked?!?!
How ignorant are these analysts?
You don’t actually believe these morons know anything at all about the stuff they are supposedly “analyzing” do you?
Employment up is bad = inflation
Unemployment up (the opposite) is good, oh, no, wait, unemployment up is bad as well. Less sales, no wait, that means the FED will lower rates, no wait……
Have to stop now, I’m making my head hurt.
Very ignorant
I like the Ben never neglects any part of the country for too long, even though the major centers of housing speculation get the most mention. Thanks Ben!
Housing price deflation is sure taking its sweet old time in Chicago still. My wife and I are looking to buy something in the $650K range at some point, but I’m hoping for house prices here to drop another 10% first. So far prices have only dropped about 3%.
The house prices in Chicago really only lost complete touch with incomes in late 2004, so Chicago’s bubble only really inflated big time during the final run of the easy money craze, and not as much as some other parts of the country.
There will not be 30% drops in house prices here like in some other more speculative parts of the country, but if the price drops overshoot on the downside like some on this blog are predicting, its possible that prices could go down another 15% here.
I’ll be happy with a 10% drop though, which loosely translates into getting a house that is currently listed for $725K down to a price of $650K.
If necessary we may just rent a townhouse for a year. At least then my wife can finally get her little rat dog…….. (she wants one of those tiny little “dogs”), and the condo we’re in now doesn’t allow them.
Holy shiete!
What kind of house does 650K buy in the Chicago area? I always pictured that as an inexpensive area to live, or did the bubble hit there really hard as well?
At the moment 650K in a reasonably nice neighborhood on the far north side in Chicago gets you a 3 bed 2 bath with detached 2-car garage, most likely with smallish rooms. If you want a little more space in each room (walk in closet?), you’re looking at more like $725 or more.
I’ve done the charts myself, pulling wage data from census and such, and house prices in Chicago pretty much tracked income growth until mid 2004.
The prices were a bit high, but not totally unreasonable from a historical perspective. HousingTracker.com backs this up as well.
Well, that does seem really, really high to me. I am assuming that the home in question is
I can’t believe they haven’t dropped more than that. Madison just to the north has seen 5-20% drops in asking price in homes at that price level. Given the problems with jumbo loans this range of house should be seeing significant drops over the next year.
(possibly repeat post… previous seems to have vaporized)
650K in a family friendly far north side neighborhood (Clark & Foster, aka Andersenville) currently gets you a 3 br + 2 bath SFH w/ 2 car detached garage. Typically it will have smallish rooms. If you want larger rooms (walk in closet?) you’re looking at more like $725K.
I made charts myself by pulling census wage info etc, and house prices pretty much tracked rising incomes until mid 2004, believe it or not. The bubble only really hit here after that.
Frankly, that surprised me too, because I had thought house prices had been going up at a crazy pace even before then. However, HousingTracker.com also shows that wages tracked house price increases here until mid 2004.
“650K in a family friendly far north side neighborhood (Clark & Foster, aka Andersenville) currently gets you a 3 br + 2 bath SFH w/ 2 car detached garage. Typically it will have smallish rooms. If you want larger rooms (walk in closet?) you’re looking at more like $725K.”
Good grief, those are California prices and there’s no bubble in Chicago? Of course everyone makes more money in Chicago than SoCal so I guess it makes sense…
Space Dog…warning…this url may cause head to explode.
LOL.
http://tinyurl.com/2o4wd3
Thanks, good to know Blagojevich is pushing the 40 year mortgages. This is from the same Governor who was being interviewed by the Daily Show and didn’t realize it was a joke. The guy is a complete moron.
not too safe for taxpayers- what’s the default rate
FHA
HUD
SBA
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
The house prices in Chicago really only lost complete touch with incomes in late 2004, so Chicago’s bubble only really inflated big time during the final run of the easy money craze, and not as much as some other parts of the country.
That sure isn’t true for large swaths of the Northwest side. Wicker Park, Bucktown, Ukranian Village, West Town, Logan Square, Humboldt Park — they all track pretty closely with a generic graph of housing bubble prices.
There are a lot of places around me where my girlfriend and I should be able to afford a decent Chicago bungalow — nothing fancy, mind you, just a vintage brick bungalow with a backyard and garage. If we had a similar income in 1998-2000-ish, not a problem.
That alone tells me prices should drop more than 15% around us.
The amount of condo overbuilding makes me think that the downside will hit Chicago condo owners pretty squarely. I get the sense that the savvier developers are aware of the looming storm, and are desperately trying to throw up their remaining projects and move inventory.
I agree that condo owners in Chicago will be hit hard. Chicago is third in the country in condos going up…. there’s definitely a condo glut here.
My condo that I bought in 2001 is, unfortunately for me, only worth approximately the same as what I paid for it. I know this because I momentarily tried to beat the housing crash, but was about 3 months too late, and the best offer I had was close to what I paid for it. The silver lining is that rents are still high and stable in Chicago (and my mortgage is half paid) so I’m not under any pressure to sell.
What you say about different areas of Chicago being more bubblicious than others is certainly true. Location location location…
While my Lakeview condo has not appreciated, my friend in the loop was able to very recently sell his condo at a nice profit very quickly. I don’t know about August, but through July prices were *still* appreciating in that part of town.
I stick with what I said earlier, though, that for the Chicagoland area as a whole, there was no major bubble (prices going up faster than incomes) until late 2004. Before then, prices were moving up more or less in line with incomes.
From what I’ve seen, Loop prices are still high, high, high. But they can’t stop building in the Loop and River North, either — the high-rises keep going up. That should spell trouble for those condo owners down the road.
You should check out trulia.com for Chicago prices; they give average, median and price per square foot with a year-over-year percentage. Some interesting data in there — for example, Lincoln Park real estate is already down 33%-ish when measured by price per square foot YOY.
Chicago “heat map” (data is below)
Good Lord!! Are you saying a 650K house would NOT be out of touch??? That’s insane!!!
I don’t think you should assume Chicago prices can’t take a 30% hit. You may end up buying at 650K and see a similar house a year later sell for 500K, or less.
Is that meant to be rhetorical..?
Yes, I am saying that $650K, for a house that is currently $725K, would not be out of touch.
That would fit in quite well with the historical average, right in line with the historical price / income ratio for the area.
I apologize if that is a shock to your senses, but the data supports this.
And on top of that, with 20% down (which I will have by January) I could afford that mortgage by only working half the year, not even including my wife’s income.
If it still sounds like I’m wildly off base and am missing something important, please let me know.
I believe that income in the Andersonville neighborhood have not been all that high (relative to the greater Chicago area) historically but I agree that it’s becoming a higher income area.
650K still seems high for Andersonville though. Evanston has 108 SFH under an ask price 650K and 87 2-flats via realtor.com
Space Dog, I checked 60640 on Realtor.com and I am shocked by the ask prices in Andersonville for SFHs but there aren’t many for sale. Lots of condos though.
My wife and I could easily afford to spend $650k on a house; however, there’s no way in hell we’d ever pay that much for one. We have better things to do with our money, like pay a much smaller mortgage and stay on track to retire in our mid 50s.
Of course, it’s easier to say that where we live (Northern Colorado), but we live here for that reason, among others.
Believe me, if I could convince my wife that buying a Sea Ray 48 would be a better way to spend our money than a house, I’d do it!
Thankfully I bought the boat I do have *before* we got married– just for this reason!! haha
Kinda rhetorical, kinda shocking, both.
It just seems that if you waited a while longer you could get a lot better deal than 650K. That’s only 10% off the high, you should be able to do a lot better than that with some patience. Everybody thinks their area is “different.” Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to be critical. The nationwide bubble is going to bust nationwide, including Chicago.
To each his own, I suppose. Me, I’d rather sleep on the street than pay 650K for a house anywhere. It sounds like you have the means, and if it makes you happy (esp. the wife), then by all means. Just be thankful you’re in such a position, methinks you’re going to be a rarity soon.
This thread is long dead I’m sure, but all the same Blano I agree with you. $650k is too much for an illiquid asset - esepcially in Chicago. These fellas appear to be talking about Chicago’s Andersonville neighborhood - located in zip 60640. In the Lakewood-Balmoral section of that area there are indeed many large older SFH going for closer to $1M than I would ever have liked to imagine. All the same, just across Broadway Ave. is an extremely built up area chock full of cheap rentals and countless condos. Considering for a moment that this bust has only limited impacts on our nation’s socioeconomic fabric - paying that much for a SFH here might be ok - but who wants to make that bet with 650k? Sorry, but as a lifelong Chicagoan living in this city is simply not worth that much money.
I’m looking to buy in NW Indiana and am surprised at the high prices people are asking for homes that are basically in or next to heavily industrial areas. I find it hard to believe this area would have been affected by the bubble because who would be moving here if they did not have to - but it sure looks like home prices here were wildly inflated the last few years. I looked at a house in Whiting (less than a mile from a huge refinery, less than 1/2 mile from a cornstarch factory and Lever Bros soap factory). It is basically a 2 bedroom, 1 bath brick bungalow but the current owner “finished” the attic by framing off a few rooms including a “bathroom” that has a prefab shower stall freestanding in the middle of the room because that is where the plumbing for the main floor bath is. Asking price for this gem is $195K. The owner (over)paid 160K for it 3 years ago and filled it with oversized furniture and a 70″ TV. Another lovely home in the neighborhood is priced at 147K and comes with a flooded basement, no extra charge. There is visible water damage in almost every room, from leaking roof and windows. It was “renovated” by someone who replaced the doors on some crappy rotting pressed wood cabinets - I don’t know how they were able to get hinges to stay in the crumbling frames. Is there any reasonable housing market out there or did EVERYONE drink the kool-aid?
“Schmidt said he personally believes that people in the Midwest are reading and watching national media. ‘It’s kinda like they think ‘Gosh, real estate activity is down on the coast…why isn’t it here?’’
Good god, here we go again.
EMPORIA GAZETTE:
Recent studies have shown that the current inventory of Emporia homes for sale is greater than at any time in the last 10 years. Why do you think this is?
SCHMIDT:
I personally believe that Emporiums are unable to sell their homes because some house shoppers out there in our state don’t have maps to find the homes. And I believe that our real estates, like, such as in Iowa and the Dakota, everywhere, like such as, and I believe that they should, our home builders over here in the Emporia should help the Emporiums, or should help Iowa and should help the Dakota and the Toll brothers so we will be able to build up our home equity for our children.
Yo, Scmidt, sounds like you took ’splainin’ lessons from Miss Teen South Carolina.
I’m laughing so hard I’m tearing up, that is good.
“Schmidt said he personally believes that people in the Midwest are reading and watching national media.
And people in the Midwest were NOT reading and watching national media on the way up? This had nothing to do with double digit appreciation in places like Kansas City?
Here is an article in the Washington Post about McMansions becoming McApartments.
http://tinyurl.com/2wmu6z
Basically, people are complaining that they are tired of seeing 7 to 9 cars parked in front of some houses. Homeowners who brought too much houses are renting out every square footage in an attempt to pay the huge mortgage.
Exactly what people have been saying about the draw backs of illegal immigration for years now.
But they’re living in houses that Americans just won’t live in.
horrors!
Do they not have apartment buildings in PG county?
Yes, they used to be called condos.
WP is calling those houses McMansions? Where I am from they would be called MCslums!
“‘The American dream is homeownership,’ Gentes said. ‘It’s not foreclosure.’”
Well, last time I checked, there is a difference between “dreams” and “reality” and also that some dreams can be nightmares.
This would be funny if it weren’t so sad…sigh.
http://blog.foreclosure.com/
Flyer says how to learn to “flip houses for insane profits”
Just one question? WHERE is this possible?
Why Jay just fly on down!
Future investors just like you will be in attendance at the Broward County Convention Center in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., from Friday, September 28 through Saturday, September 29, 2007, for this extraordinary two-day real estate training program.
Of course I’m kidding.
They also state how they can save you money on your next home purchase. For a FEE of course.
Let’s see now, the best way to save money on a home purchase is a) pay you or b)just wait two yrs for free.
But unfortunately, that place will be packed with junior Trump wanna bees.
“Make $31,000, $80,000 and more with preforeclosures ”
Where do they come up with these numbers???
“People aren’t smart”
What is an “affordable home?” Did I miss that part of the constitution that not only says you have a right to buy a house, but it has to be top quality and size? Part of the problem is crazy expectations of buyers - even 1st home buyers - 1st thing you hear in an existing home that hasn’t been flipped is everything needs to be updated - mostly to granite and SS (Please when will it end). All the stupid over decorating - pulling out perfectly fine real wood kitchen cabinets to install new ones - just for looks. And since when did bathrooms turn into spa-like retreats? No child should ever share a room and we now have separate rooms for everything - media rooms, gyms, etc. And lastly, let’s not forget closet space and huge walk in closets to keep the crazy amount of clothes people seem to need. So many seem to want to pretend they are as good as the celebs and the rich they hear about.
we have that problem here BIG TIME.
Everyone wants the 3500 sq ft McMansion, granite, SS, in “the good school district” etc etc, as a starter home. Anything else is called a “crudshack in a Mcghetto”.
LOL. Here in Southern California we even have “gift-wrapping rooms.”
Toured a McMansion golf course home, just for kicks (it was awful) - downstairs was a wine cellar and a tasting room, but between the two was a room about the size of a very small ktchen, all walnut walls, very dark and rich looking, with nothing in it. it had a large window that looked into the wine tasting room. For the life of me I couldn’t figure out what it was for. it was just weird.
The cigar room?
How about cigar smoking rooms? Or, for those loud sleepers, snoring rooms? And, last but not least, for those who eat beans and other things that don’t quite agree with them, farting rooms?
Or, if you drank a bit too much, maybe the room is a vomitorium:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vomitorium#Vomitorium
I had to look after my parents 4,000 sq/ft house and pets when they went on long vacations in the 80’s. I’ve liked small houses ever since - they don’t need so much cleaning.
Metro housing slide keeps repo man busy
‘Snowball effect’ from mortgage woes, easy credit keeps lot overflowing
http://www.ajc.com/business/content/business/stories/2007/09/03/repo_0904.html
Hey Arizona Slim and Julie…..Say you choose to “opt out” at optoutprescreen.com. Do you think the credit reporting agencies punish you by lowering your FICO score?
No mention of the Richmond, VA market… things have been stable here with average drops throughout. There is a gluttony of new construction going on in the Brandermill area with builders literally knocking down trees and building 5 bedroom houses in 1/2 acre lots… just as described in the article. It’s a shame… destroys the character of the area and to be frank, don’t know who can afford these houses.