September 28, 2007

Weekend Topic Suggestions!

And send in your housing bubble photos to:

hbbphotos@gmail.com




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184 Comments »

Comment by Xpovos
2007-09-28 04:18:52

I want to know what txchick thinks I should invest in next. I enjoy shooting financial fish in barrels, and could use the extra cash. :-P

Comment by joeyinCalif
2007-09-28 04:31:29

..enjoy shooting financial fish in barrels..

make sure you don’t let off a stray bullet and puncture the stock market bubble.

Comment by Xpovos
2007-09-28 04:45:06

That’d be OK, so long as I have a short position. But then I’d probably get accused of insider trading, and I’m not Martha enough.

Comment by Ben Jones
2007-09-28 04:48:19

‘not Martha enough’

Funny

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Comment by txchick57
2007-09-28 04:56:24

How about a large vibrating egg?

Comment by Xpovos
2007-09-28 04:59:30

Oro?

Comment by txchick57
2007-09-28 05:18:34

Along the same lines of liking SUNW at 4.50 back in August, I like SIRI here. It’s off the bottom but has a really nice chart. I’ve messed with that sucker a lot over the years but think the merger will go through. SIRI and XMSR were berry berry good to me buying them in the fall of ‘02.

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Comment by Xpovos
2007-09-28 05:32:05

Music to my ears, heh. I bought SIRI long (long ago) and have been holding the bag for a while. I’m pretty sure the merger will go through too. Was thinking about doubling my position. Just gotta come up with the liquid.

 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2007-09-28 05:42:11

Oro puro, best bet-o

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Comment by aladinsane
2007-09-28 08:05:39

Investments?

Soon, very soon in fact due to our collapsing greenback…

There will be more foreigners visiting our country, than ever before.

Cater to their needs, and you’ll do very well.

They are the rich “Americans” now.

 
 
Comment by NYCityBoy
2007-09-28 04:48:56

I would like to see a weekend topic that allows people to make their case for which one of the REICsters has been the most egregious throughout this entire mess. We talk about David Lereah, Robert Toll, Leslie Appleton-Young, Bernanke, etc. Well, let’s give a crown for The Worst REICster of All Time. It is time for people to be held accountable for all of the nonsense they have spewed and the ill-gotten gains they have pocketed.

Comment by aladinsane
2007-09-28 04:51:15

3rd REIC’rs

 
Comment by az_lender
2007-09-28 05:25:47

Funny, the villains who come to mind for me are my own FB acquaintances. The cousin who up-sized in Malibu in 2006 (yup, SIX) knowing that she and her husband would have to flip in two years when their ARM resets. The friend paying 50% of her gross income for IO who refi’d in 2006 (yup, SIX) in CA (exposing herself to recourse), saying she will refi again before 2011 when the I/O ARM changes to PITI(LIBOR+2%) and claims 80% of gross. The 35-yo nephew with the $100K job who refi’d in SE CT in 2006 (yup, SIX), choosing an ARM because “it’s so much cheaper.” I can’t say these people have pocketed ill-gotten gains (see NYCB’s post), but they certainly wanted to, and they have certainly spewed plenty of nonsense…and they WILL be held accountable! Without thousands — no, millions — of people like these, the REIC scheme would’ve had no legs.

Comment by aladinsane
2007-09-28 05:38:27

Ode to my 2 sisters…

Final score: 5 houses

 
 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2007-09-28 04:49:36

Winter isn’t all that far away, and the FB’s that have had their lives foreclosed on, will need a place to stay…

When does the great squatocracy begin, en masse?

Comment by watcher
2007-09-28 16:53:07

Themesong; Lets Lynch the Landlord by the Dead Kennedys

 
 
Comment by JA
2007-09-28 04:50:52

Mortgage payments vs. Health insurance.

Which do you stop paying first?

Comment by nhz
2007-09-28 05:04:58

health insurance I guess. Even in the Netherlands more than 5% of the population (mostly illegal immigrants, official immigrants who pretend they cannot read the insurance bills and other freeriders) are not paying their health insurance; they get treatment anyway …

 
 
Comment by jinwnc
2007-09-28 04:53:02

I’d like to hear local observations on land /lot prices.
Out here in Western NC they don’t seem to be dropping, but home sellers are starting to get scared.

Comment by CarrieAnn
2007-09-28 05:11:58

I’d like to get an idea what basic rental prices are in the different areas as it is what we as HBBers are recommending as people sit this one out.

For instance what is the asking price of a 1500 sqft condo, a 2 or 3 br in a multi apt building, an 1800 sfh in a starter neighborhood, a 3500-well appointed sfh in the executive neighborhood.

I’ve checked out a few prices in a few different areas that didn’t include a major city. I was surprised that a basic and not so clean looking 3 BR home in Portsmouth, NH was asking $2400-$2700 while a more cared for oceanfront in Hull, MA could be had for $1800. Locally (outside Syracuse) that type of home is renting for $1250-$1600. There is an executive home over 3000 sq ft the next town over being offered for $2600/mo. (If I understand which one it is its a spec home that never sold)

Comment by CarrieAnn
2007-09-28 05:22:32

Sorry jin. Meant to be a separate topic. Didn’t mean to take over yours.

 
Comment by novasold
2007-09-28 11:59:25

Carrie:

Funny that you mention Portsmouth.

My niece and boyfriend were just visiting and mentioned these kinds of rents in N.H. My response was that I guess I’m better off staying in Northern Virginia where I can rent for almost a thousand dollars less a nice three bedroom house with a fenced in backyard for my dog and get paid 33% more.

I didn’t realize N.H. was that bad off.

 
 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2007-09-28 04:54:58

The aftermarkets on metals haven’t done much in quite awhile, and now things are heating up… nearly every day

Before today’s opening, mellow yellow is currently sporting a $6 rise over yesterday’s close.

 
Comment by Dazed&Confused
2007-09-28 05:00:37

According to the Federal Reserve, the process of money creation takes place in the banks (see Modern Money Mechanics, Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago).

Banks “create” money whenever they make loans. But, they only loan (create) the principle, they never loan (create) the interest. Where does the interest come from to satisfy all the loans?

Comment by Dazed&Confused
2007-09-28 05:02:00

Sorry, they only loan the “principal”. The principle stays at school where she belongs.

Comment by Blano
2007-09-28 05:06:48

I thought the “principal” went to school, and a “principle” is what you believe in.

Comment by aladinsane
2007-09-28 05:17:38

spelling nazis

No words for you!

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Comment by az_lender
2007-09-28 05:32:36

Aladin, first it’s “3rd REIC” (good joke), now its “nazis” — have you been watching the Hitler Channel this morning?

 
Comment by Blano
2007-09-28 05:48:38

Stop it, both of you!!! It’s not even 9AM and I’m already laughing. At least now I get the 3rd REIC joke.

 
 
Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2007-09-28 07:15:16

Blanco,

You are correct.

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Comment by Mary Lee
2007-09-28 15:34:30

the principal is your pal….

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Comment by Quirk
2007-09-28 05:17:37

You certainly are dazed and confused, ’cause you got it bass-ackwards.

Comment by CarrieAnn
2007-09-28 05:48:38

The principal is your “pal.”

Don’t they teach those things in school out there? ;)

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Comment by CarrieAnn
2007-09-28 05:49:51

They did teach me ” and then . but I think Alzheimer’s runs in my family.

 
 
Comment by MassBubbleGirl
2007-09-28 06:28:05

Just remember, “principal” is always your PAL (aka friend) at school…that’s how I remember it (my Dad was a elementary school principal, so this saying is burned in my brain)

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Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2007-09-28 07:16:43

I’m sure you will find some kids that would disagree the “principal” is your PAL. ;)

 
Comment by david cee
2007-09-28 07:36:06

Remember, “all childrens do learn” and this clown is married to a librarian. Yale should ask for their diploma back.

 
Comment by speedingpullet
2007-09-28 10:33:38

Sure it wasn’t just a used copy of “My Pet Goat?”

Available in up and upside down versions….

 
Comment by Wickedheart
2007-09-28 11:11:19

david cee

I guess you never heard of “Gentleman’s C’s”

 
Comment by spike66
2007-09-28 19:44:11

“I guess you never heard of “Gentleman’s C’s”

That would require the recipient be a gentleman. How about drunkard’s Ds. Or fogged-out druggie with influential father Fs.

 
 
 
 
Comment by Dazed&Confused
2007-09-28 05:37:57

Ok, riddle this. The bank loans $100 @ 10% interest. They created the $100 (argue this with the FRB if you disagree). The borrower owes the bannk $110, which they can never pay because the bank never creates the $10. (Example: the mistaken poster who said I “got it backwards”.)

I see many people on this forum who still don’t understand this fundamental principle about our fiat-based money system. Consequently, they mistakenly blame the borrowers instead of they system itself.

My confusion is with regard to why people who should understand this, don’t.

Comment by VT Dan
2007-09-28 06:05:56

For the relatively rich, the utility gain provided by usury(interest) is marginal to the already substantial utility of the principal sum. The principle of the diminishing marginal utility of wealth therefore applies to each incremental unit of wealth procured by interest earnings. The poor, however, experience the converse of this. For them, the loss in utility incurred by having to pay interest is qualitatively much greater than the gain to the rich. Each unit of interest paid incurs increasing marginal utility loss. Permitting usury to operate in an economy therefore reduces overall utility in the economy. This must count as one of the strongest arguments against usury. Any justification of it as an efficient economic instrument would have to first demonstrate that it functions to increase total utility. In the absence of such demonstration, it can justifiably be condemned as a tool of tyranny.

Comment by joeyinCalif
2007-09-28 07:09:47

Any justification of it (usury aka “lending at interest”) as an efficient economic instrument would have to first demonstrate that it functions to increase total utility.

ok.. how bout this:
Try running a country.. or even city.. without any borrowing or lending, and see how far things get.

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Comment by VT Dan
2007-09-28 06:13:18

Now let me take it a step further and ask the question, by what basis does a bank have the right to earn “interest” on money created by entering some numbers in a computer? In theory the loan has a fixed cost (processing fee).

If the justification of the interest is because the bank as gaurenteeing society that if the borrower fails to pay (and therefore destroy the created money) then the bank will cough up the money and take a loss then why do we also have to pay for mortgage insurance or have government gaurenteed loans?

And if money can be created out of thin error to be lent, why can’t it be destroyed in the same mannor? Given the private nature of the federal reserve why cann’t they just “buy” all of the bad loans and then just “destroy” the money/debt?

 
Comment by Blano
2007-09-28 08:31:01

Just throw ‘em a hundred and a ten and we’re done.

 
 
Comment by WatchingTheSagaUnfold
2007-09-28 10:43:13

‘Banks “create” money whenever they make loans. But, they only loan (create) the principle, they never loan (create) the interest. Where does the interest come from to satisfy all the loans?’

That is along the lines of profit, too. Where does that come from? My gut instinct tells me it all comes from faith in a system that is believed to be too big to fail. What is that Police song? I get it stuck in my head during times like this: “When The World Is Running Down”.

 
Comment by We Rent!
2007-09-28 20:00:18

Sorry folks, but not a single person on this line have any clue as to what they’re talking about. Go read.

Comment by We Rent!
2007-09-28 20:02:50

Sorry, “has.” Referring to a singular, of course.

 
 
 
Comment by mrktMaven FL
2007-09-28 05:01:04

Is it time to buy?

Comment by az_lender
2007-09-28 05:10:29

C’mon mMF, that’s not even a topic! (In a word, “no.”) But a related topic could be, what constellation of signs or events will tell us when it IS time to buy.

Comment by Danni
2007-09-28 05:13:48

2.5x income is my bench mark

 
Comment by mrktMaven FL
2007-09-28 05:33:21

Jim Cramer says don’t buy. Who invited him to this side of the fence? I don’t like being on the same side of the fence. He makes me want to scale right over and buy something.

Comment by Devildog
2007-09-28 05:45:30

Don’t fall for it. He’s using reverse psychology.

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Comment by Leighsong
2007-09-28 06:56:53

Tooooo funny and (almost) true! You guys ang gals are killing me with fits of laughter…slow it down, please…coffee is HOT.

LOL
Leigh

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Comment by Ben Jones
2007-09-28 05:01:57

‘Without doubt, the housing market is getting hammered. Existing-home sales plummeted last month. Prices are falling; foreclosures are rising. And it’s hard to get a loan — particularly a “jumbo” loan of more than $417,000, or a subprime loan of any amount.’

‘But one bad idea being considered is expanding the roles of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the publicly traded corporations created by government to promote homeownership. A Senate proposal would lift by at least 10% the maximum amount of home loans they can own — currently $735 billion each.’

‘These limits, which were recently increased slightly by federal regulators, initially were agreed to last year after accounting problems were exposed at both companies. Supporters of lifting the limits say it would pump more money into the mortgage market, encouraging lenders to lend.’

‘Allowing Fannie and Freddie to expand their core business would certainly help their bottom lines and please shareholders. But it would do little, if anything, to fix home lending woes. Here’s why:’

Comment by kckid
2007-09-28 05:18:11

The benchmark 30-year fixed-rate mortgage rose for the 3rd straight week, climbing 8 basis points in the week ending Sept. 27th to 6.34%

Comment by joeyinCalif
2007-09-28 05:36:19

a bank called me .. said i had too much cash and wanted me to buy some CDs.
I said that i’m expecting and waiting for CD rates to rise.

He says i musta missed the recent Fed cut and and that rates are falling, not rising.

i don’t like it when people play me..

 
 
Comment by mrktMaven FL
2007-09-28 05:45:56

The government should leave Fannie and Freddie alone. It’s time for a new agency — SuckerMae. SuckerMae would be mandated to go around the globe and buy up all those losing subprime, near prime, and prime loan packages.

Comment by aladinsane
2007-09-28 06:37:13

“One and one is two, and two and two is four, and five will get you ten if you know how to work it.”

“fannie” Mae West

 
Comment by Leighsong
2007-09-28 07:05:27

ARMs vs subprime. I still don’t have a handle on why people with perfectly good credit choose (or some say were boondloggled) into an ARM.

Acendotal evidence in MSM and this board’s observations of friends and family suggest the ARM resets are our worst nightmare in the making.

It appears (to me) that the subprime loans are actually much smaller than the ill-beggoten miscreants who qualified for a convention, 30/15 yr fix, but opted for the ARM.

Leigh

Comment by Professor Bear
2007-09-28 20:11:02

“ARMs vs subprime. I still don’t have a handle on why people with perfectly good credit choose (or some say were boondloggled) into an ARM.”

Quite simple, really. The same income could buy much more house with an ARM than with a 30-year (or any-other-year) fixed mortgage. So long as real estate always went up, and interest rates always stayed low, how could buying a bigger house (and hence a bigger third income) possibly be a bad idea?

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Comment by WatchingTheSagaUnfold
2007-09-28 23:39:22

‘It’s time for a new agency — SuckerMae. ‘

incredible

 
 
Comment by CA renter
2007-09-29 02:47:52

‘Allowing Fannie and Freddie to expand their core business would certainly help their bottom lines and please shareholders. But it would do little, if anything, to fix home lending woes. Here’s why:’
———————–
The reason we are in this mess (foreclosure “crisis”) in the first place is TOO MUCH MONEY in the mortgage market. Increasing Fannie and Freddies portfoloios only serves to add fuel to the fire. It does not solve the problem of **affordability**. Likewise, increasing loan limits only serves to make housing even more UNaffordable. True affordability comes in the form of lower prices, not gimmicky mortgages (higher DEBT!!!).

Why can’t Americans get their heads around the fact that debt is a BAD thing??? It only serves to increase costs while incomes tend to remain stagnant. Additionally, the credit markets exist largely to transfer wealth from the poor/working class to the rich via interest payments.

 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2007-09-28 05:03:10

$850 Billion more of indebtedness comes our way…

But Sen. Tom Coburn, an Oklahoma Republican, urged lawmakers to reject the debt increase and concentrate on spending cuts instead.

“Families across America don’t have the luxury of loaning themselves any money when they’ve maxed out their credit. But that’s what we’re going to do,” Coburn said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN2742101920070928?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&rpc=22&sp=true

Comment by Joe
2007-09-28 08:49:36

And we have an administration that thinks spending 190 billion EXTRA on DOD to continue the conflicts in SWA next year is prudent BUT spending 35 billion over 5 years for health/medical insurance for American Children is a waste and will be vetoed.

WTF? 190 billion for death or 35 billion for life, in my world (which is reality) the latter is the more prudent investment for our borrowed dollars

Comment by aladinsane
2007-09-28 09:15:36

Bizarro World, htraelings…

“In one episode, for example, a salesman is doing a brisk trade selling Bizarro bonds: “Guaranteed to lose money for you”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bizarro_World

 
 
 
Comment by JungleJim
2007-09-28 05:09:01

Topic:What would it take to reinflate the bubble? Perhaps a MASSIVE government undertaking ala FDR? How about “THE INFRASTURCTURE REDEVELOPMENT ACT OF 2008″? Inflation doesn’t seem to get any attention. This world wide bubble MUST be reinflated no matter the cost. Deflation isn’t in their vocabulary. And would create havoc to the system inplace. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a reinflation advocate. But you can bet that the powers that be are, at this very moment, composing or even implimenting a plan to save the “bacon”.

Comment by CarrieAnn
2007-09-28 05:20:46

I thought the blogospere had established that every bubble eventually must end in collapse. I’m wondering if we have any examples in history where there was reinflation of the same industry of a maturing bubble?

 
Comment by joeyinCalif
2007-09-28 05:47:01

reinflate the bubble
it’s 1:55 am and “Last Call” was announced a while ago. A few of the drunkards might protest and refuse to leave, but they will be tossed out on their ears in any event.

Comment by Big Bob Slob
2007-09-28 06:03:59

The chinese government to decide they really don’t need all those dollars they have saved up and that they should invest in CDO’s so we will keep buying their products.

 
 
Comment by aNYCdj
2007-09-28 09:19:43

Scary thought—- what happens when the hip hop rap music bubble bursts?…….maybe create jobs digging ditches?

THE INFRASTRUCTURE REDEVELOPMENT ACT OF 2008

Comment by Professor Bear
2007-09-28 20:29:44

Hip hop is with us to stay. It is a natural consequence of (1) the Great Society programs of the 1960s (subsidized the black share of the populations’ birth rate) and (2) the gutting of U.S. music education programs in the 1970s (created a vacuum for whatever substitute for actual music could capture popular tastes).

Go ahead and say I am a racist. Actually I am not — merely a realist :-) .

 
Comment by WatchingTheSagaUnfold
2007-09-28 23:43:32

“This just in, hip-hop music is still dead.”

 
 
 
Comment by droog
2007-09-28 05:21:46

I propose the following weekend topics:

1. With all the bad news from the housing market, you’d have to be an idiot to buy now, right? Yet people are still buying. Are they deluded homeowners, or knife-catching “vulture investors” who are going to be creamed when prices crater? If you know of a friend or rellie who made the mistake of purchasing recently, ask them “what were they thinking?” and post the results back here. I’d be interested in reading about the buyer psychology.

2. Who is Ben? Not Bernanke, but our own BJ. I’d like a Ben bio. How does Ben find the time to read, synthesize and post all of these HB articles? Is it a full-time job? Throw in a brief bio from everyone else (age, sex and location) so we know whom we’re spending most of our free time with.

Comment by az_lender
2007-09-28 05:56:45

On your (1): Not a friend or relative, but my new (Maine) landlord closed on this house just a month ago. He is a retiring Federal employee, maybe he got a lump-sum distribution. He thinks he got a good deal here, because the price he paid is 30% below the original 2005 asking price of $650K. Shorefront, 2000+ s.f. When he told me he had done very well with the purchase, I “yessed” him - why ask for trouble? I am paying him $1,000 a month to rent his $450,000 alligator, and during the winter, when I am not here, the young couple of housemates with local parents will pay me $420/mo, most of which will go on heat. You might say that it is I who am spending foolishly, and there is some truth in that; my point really is that the landlord is fortunate to collect even $1000/mo from a creditworthy customer. He thinks he will sell his inland NH house within a year. Stay tuned.

Comment by exeter
2007-09-28 09:30:13

AZ lender, I have to ask…. Where does this tripe of a landlord hail from?

 
 
Comment by Mike
2007-09-28 06:11:31

They are thinking in exactly the same way investors in the tech bubble thought. That is, “It can’t drop much more can it?”

Only if you have been through (and experienced the financial pain) of a bubble bursting, do you NOT reach out and catch a falling knife. Almost all who were invested in the tech bubble had very little experience with the stock market (myself being one of them) and thought the prices would bounce back. I myself was invested very heavily in the QQQQ’s (then the QQQ’s).

As it happens, I was away in europe and I got out of the market before I left because I couldn’t watch it on a daily basis. As in the property bubble, the buying and selling was fast and furious at the height. Bubbles are ALWAYS the same. I was following an “expert” called Bob Brinker who advised his news letter subscribers to buy the QQQQ’s (long) at $84.00. They had already dropped from $120.00 at that point and Brinker said they were a bargain. (Gee, where have I heard that before?)

However, and here’s the lesson and the irony, when I got back from europe, the QQQQ’s had dropped to $65.00! I read Brinker’s letter and he had made no mention to his readers that they should sell. “Wow!,” I thought, “How can I go wrong!?” I plowed big bucks into the QQQQ’s at $63.00, thinking, “If an expert like Brinker thought the QQQQ’s were a bargain at $85.00, what must they be at $64.00!”

Well folks, what is going to happen with property (I am FAR more savvy about the stock market now AND I got back the 6 figures I lost during the tech bust but it took 5 years) is what happened with the QQQ’s. I and others (the mirror images of todays FB’s and speculators ) hung in. It had to bounce back. Right? Wrong. Thousands of ‘hot companies’ tanked and many went bust. Just like some of the builders, banks and realtors and brokers are going to go bust.

Where I was concerned, the QQQQ’s dropped to $55.00. (That’s okay they will bounce back soon). Then $45.00. (That’s okay they will bounce back soon). Then $35.00. (That’s okay they will bounce back soon). Then $25.00. (Jeez, I wish I’d sold at $60.00 but it’s okay they will bounce back soon).

Of course there were the odd mini-rallies as the “falling knife catchers” jumped in and bought but the bubble continued to deflate. As it always does until capitulation day arrives. The QQQ’s finally hit a $20.00 low after falling from $120.00.

THAT is exactly what is going to happen to property values. Other forces could come into play which might affect, one way or the other, the eventual outcome. A recession will speed up the burst. Of course, one has to factor in the meddling politicians who are always on the look out for a “cause” or “photo-op” which will make them look caring and sensitive to the, “Needs of ordinary Americans.” That means printing and throwing money at the problem. Not a good idea for a country $9 trillion in debt but politician’s don’t care. Image over substance.

However, it will make no difference. This problem is worldwide. I fully expect prices to drop at least 50% from the highs. Possibly much more. A property worth $700,000 at the height will drop to $350,000. THAT is the path ALL bubbles have taken. I’ve now read volumes on the outcome of bubbles and it’s amazing how the pattern repeats time and time again for hundreds of years.

THUS: Now is NOT a good time to buy. Now is a good time to sell if you own property ’cause you are on a train to a town called Financial Misery.

Comment by sold in sf 2001
2007-09-28 09:31:39

Excellent, excellent post, Mike!

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-09-28 20:06:58

“THAT is the path ALL bubbles have taken. I’ve now read volumes on the outcome of bubbles and it’s amazing how the pattern repeats time and time again for hundreds of years.”

The amazing part (IMO) is how predictable this is, yet how unbelievable it seems while it plays out (even to me, a professed bear!).

 
 
Comment by bluprint
2007-09-28 06:40:39

I’m considering buying soon. Background: I’m one of you. I have been watching this bubble for quite a while now, before even finding this blog. I have some academic exposure to economics (a minor) and have continued feeding that interest/knowledge over the years. I’m also a follower of Austrian economics (www.mises.org), I understand (to varying degrees) market cycles, why the Fed is a bad thing and how they excacerbate market cycles, how bubbles typically are created and can independently see/verify some clear market/economic signals that the housing market is continuing to deflate locally. In fact, in central arkansas we tend to lag the national trend. The bubble lagged and the deflation is lagging.

Motive for buying? Well, for starters my motive is much like anyone else who might want to buy. In my case, my wife and I have been in a small home (1144 sq. ft) we bought new in 1998 for 70k; very small lot on a hill. The payment is nice (20% to put down on such a house. Other than the house, the debt we will have at that point is a $160/mo student loan.

I expect prices to continue to decline, but it’s going to be slow. I have said I don’t recommend using a residence as an “investment”. So I’m not going to try to time the tops OR the bottoms. Just buy conservatively, put 20% down and get a fixed loan (fewer years the better). If I lived in a huge bubble area, I wouldn’t consider it, but the area I’m in was not as volatile and I’m not willing to wait ten years to find the bottom of the housing market before I can start doing some of the things I want to do.

Comment by bluprint
2007-09-28 06:48:14

A significant portion of my comment got lost in the middle…trying again.

I’m considering buying soon. Background: I’m one of you. I have been watching this bubble for quite a while now, before even finding this blog. I have some academic exposure to economics (a minor) and have continued feeding that interest/knowledge over the years. I’m also a follower of Austrian economics (www.mises.org), I understand (to varying degrees) market cycles, why the Fed is a bad thing and how they excacerbate market cycles, how bubbles typically are created and can independently see/verify some clear market/economic signals that the housing market is continuing to deflate. In central arkansas, we tend to lag national trends. The bubble lagged and the burst seems to be lagging.

Motive for buying? Well, for starters my motive is much like anyone else who might want to buy. In my case, my wife and I have been in a small home (1144 sq. ft) we bought new in 1998 for 70k; very small lot on a hill. The payment is nice (20% to put down on such a house. Other than the house, the debt we will have at that point is a $160/mo student loan.

I expect prices to continue to decline, but it’s going to be slow. I have said I don’t recommend using a residence as an “investment”. So I’m not going to try to time the tops OR the bottoms. Just buy conservatively, put 20% down and get a fixed loan (fewer years the better). If I lived in a huge bubble area, I wouldn’t consider it, but the area I’m in was not as volatile and I’m not willing to wait for ten years to find the bottom of the housing market before I can start doing some of the things I want to do.

Comment by bluprint
2007-09-28 06:49:23

F**k it, I guess I don’t know the trick to longer comments.

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Comment by bluprint
2007-09-28 07:09:47

Last try: greater-than less-than symbols got me. I’m a ‘tard.

I’m considering buying soon. Background: I’m one of you. I have been watching this bubble for quite a while now, before even finding this blog. I have some academic exposure to economics (a minor) and have continued feeding that interest/knowledge over the years. I’m also a follower of Austrian economics (www.mises.org), I understand (to varying degrees) market cycles, why the Fed is a bad thing and how they excacerbate market cycles, how bubbles typically are created and can independently see/verify some clear market/economic signals that the housing market is continuing to deflate. In central arkansas, we tend to lag national trends. The bubble lagged and the burst seems to be lagging.

Motive for buying? Well, for starters my motive is much like anyone else who might want to buy. In my case, my wife and I have been in a small home (1144 sq. ft) we bought new in 1998 for 70k; very small lot on a hill. The payment is nice (less than $600 including taxes/insurance) but we simply want to make some changes. I want to get out of the neighborhood scene, get some more room in the house, get a piece of land (5 acres? 25 acres?), a shop in the back, room to pull a trailer around back if I want. Preferebly enough land (this is more of a long-term goal) to raise some livestock for personal use, keep bees (we have 2 hives on her grandparents’ farm, but it’s a pain to manage at that distance) and do some other similar activities. Additionally, I started a master’s program in January and want to get closer, so I’m looking for a job in the same city as the school I’m attending, and I would like to move closer. It would save a commute for my wife (she’s been making that commute a couple years now) and myself driving back and forth to school.

So, is now a good time to buy? Probably not the best. I live in central arkansas. Comparitively speaking, it’s not as bad as other places. Certainly prices have gone up in the last few years like other places, but not to the same degree. Conversely, I don’t expect prices to drop to the same degree. Further, I believe much of the price increases (nationally speaking) is inflationary, more than most people are figuring, and the inflationary part of the price increases isn’t going to “correct” out. If we see 1999 prices again, it will have to be a fairly serious recessionary period IMO.

I expect to buy some time next year. I figure something in the neighborhood of 170k, I should be able to get a decent house with a couple acres for that. I am also not in a hurry at all, so I expect to make a purchase that is a “good deal” at the time of the purchase. Of course, a “good deal” now is just “fair market” in six months.

My wife and I (31 and 30) currently make about 95k a year. I’m expecting that to increase by at least 10-15k on my end by next spring and possibly a similar increase for her. If that doesn’t happen, then that changes things, but I won’t be buying at any period based on what I think I’ll make in the future. Current purchases are made based on current income. I will also have greater than 20% to put down on such a house. Other than the house, the debt we will have at that point is a $160 student loan.

I expect prices to continue to decline, but it’s going to be slow. I have said I don’t recommend using a residence as an “investment”. So I’m not going to try to time the tops OR the bottoms. Just buy conservatively, put 20% down and get a fixed loan (fewer years the better). If I lived in a huge bubble area, I wouldn’t consider it, but the area I’m in was not as volatile and I’m not willing to wait for ten years to find the bottom of the housing market before I can start doing some of the things I want to do.

 
 
Comment by San Diego RE Bear
2007-09-28 10:03:09

“Throw in a brief bio from everyone else (age, sex and location) so we know whom we’re spending most of our free time with.”

(Old, not nearly enough, ummmm, San Diego.) :D

Comment by aladinsane
2007-09-28 11:20:45

I’m dating a 1,600 year old…

 
 
 
Comment by Blano
2007-09-28 05:27:51

I would be interesting in hearing at what point y’all think we could all start buying them underpriced houses, rent them out, and live happily ever after off the cash flow so we can do really important stuff.

Comment by Mike
2007-09-28 06:34:55

I wouldn’t own rental property. Too many problems too numerous to list. Life is too short to deal with bad tenants, repair problems, insurance and, of course, taxes. However, EVERYONE will know when property has reached the bottom. I suspect several years + from now UNLESS there is a monster of a dollar meltdown. With the US in so much debt (very, very scary) and now totally lacking any kind of credibility around the world, which does not give foreign investors confidence, a financial meltdown might be reasonably remote but it is in the picture.

Inventory is one of the keys. Once we get rid of the backlog (there’s a lot of it and what’s worse much more coming down the line) the bottom will be in. Look for several big builders to go bankrupt first and their assets sold off at bargain basement prices.

However, people will be so scared of property ownership by then, values will remain weak for several years. The bottom might be in by 2010 but prices will remain flat for many years after that. Very low price increases.

 
 
Comment by Little Al
2007-09-28 05:29:06

With a little organization, the people on this blog with real estate experience, investment savvy, and comedic qualities (Neil are you listening) could start a vulture real estate investment fund to make their grand kick-off in 2010 (the darkest days of the upcoming Greater Recession). Come on boys on girls, this blog is proof that many of you are spot-on with the predictions. It has already become a wierd extended family.

Comment by az_lender
2007-09-28 05:40:35

I have often thought we should pool our resources to buy an 8BR shorefront mansion, just $100K apiece from (let’s say) 50 of us. The mathematically-inclined could send out maintenance and utility bills reflecting actual use of the time-shared property.
(Little Al, did you ever hear this rule? — “I before E, except after C, except in ‘weird’ and ’seize’ ” — I’m not making it up.)

Comment by joeyinCalif
2007-09-28 06:02:31

gotta be lots more exceptions.. hundreds? especially where i and e are the second two letters.. heinie heinous height ..

and just to keep this thread in-topic, there’s “forfeiture”.

Comment by ozajh
2007-09-28 08:24:46

I was always told the ‘I before E’ rule only applied where the pronunciation was ‘E’.

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Comment by joeyinCalif
2007-09-28 09:08:41

hmm.. whoever said that didn’t know any better or they lied to you.

 
Comment by aladinsane
2007-09-28 13:18:06

Empire Inland (e.i.) or Inland Empire (i.e.)

Screwed either way

 
 
 
 
Comment by Blano
2007-09-28 05:52:12

I was sort of alluding to this above when asking when to start buying and live happily ever after off the cash flow. Would be more than happy with the right partners. As I’ve heard, 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing.

Comment by david cee
2007-09-28 07:43:04

“happy with the right partners” Over 50% of marriages end in divorce. The number for a partnership must be twice as high.

 
 
Comment by Ouro Verde
2007-09-28 08:33:08

I swear to God i was daydreaming of sending Txchick 100K just to play and win.

I miss the days of seeing my portfolio explode to upside.

 
 
Comment by JungleJim
2007-09-28 05:36:53

“I thought the blogospere had established that every bubble eventually must end in collapse. I’m wondering if we have any examples in history where there was reinflation of the same industry of a maturing bubble? ”

I guess what I was trying to get at is as the tech bubble begot the housing bubble, what bubble is on the near horizon. Housing prices MUST be kept inflated or the game is truly over. I know this isn’t a popular theme, but I have to wonder what, if anything, can keep the music playing. A massive government undertaking just might do the trick.

Comment by mrktMaven FL
2007-09-28 05:59:15

It’s difficult to get people to take risk after they’ve been whacked a couple times. There has been a lot of whacking in the housing industry and it’s getting worse. After a while, fewer and fewer sign up for whacking. Whack me once… You know the rest.

Comment by Former FB
2007-09-28 09:40:32

Tom Anderson from Beavis & Butthead: “I’ve never seen two boys do so much whacking”

 
 
 
Comment by palmetto
2007-09-28 05:52:43

This being fundraising week, I’d like to know from my fellow HBBers how they got here (HBB), why they got here and any success stories from being here on the blog. Reading various posts over the past couple of years, some have mentioned how the blog saved them from an unwise purchase, or they passed the information on to a friend or relative who benefitted, or they read something about financial markets that resulted in a profit, etc.

Anyway, I’ll go first: I got here in October of 2005. We (ex and I) had just sold our residence, moved to another part of Florida to rent, found it horrifying as I saw the results of the bubble around Florida, and moved back to the Tampa Bay area, where it seemed not quite as bad as other parts of Florida I’d been to.

Having cash from the sale of the residence, I was wondering when the bubble would deflate or burst and I could buy back in at 2000 prices or less. I was looking for information and for people who were seeing what I was seeing. So I sat down at my computer and googled “Housing Bubble”. The HBB, Patrick.net and Keith’s blog (forget the name of it) came up. I gravitated to this one, probably because the boomer flaming was low key here and also because the overall discourse between bloggers was thoughtful, courteous for the most part, with some great humor. Also it was very simple to post.

Anyway, my original reason for being here was that I wanted to get a feel for when I could buy back in, cheap. I don’t know that I’ve had that question answered as yet, except it’ll probably be a while. But in the meantime, I’ve learned a lot and enjoyed being here. It has made me more aware of what is happening in Florida, that’s for sure, and of the effects of Wall Street and globabization on the housing market.

Comment by Ft Lauderdale
2007-09-28 06:35:38

excellent idea, my story is similiar, we transferred here at the end of 2005 and I was astounded by the prices, started researching and found this blog, and thanks the blog and the information here, I persuaded my spouse to give up the points etc. from our relocation package and continue renting. I have never been so grateful for a financial decision in my life.

 
Comment by VT Dan
2007-09-28 06:43:19

My name is Dan, a software engineer turned economist from Virginia Tech and I am a HBB addict.

I found this site as part of an overall enlightening experience. I was starting to research presidential candidates and was throughly discusted with republicans and was starting to see if any democrats made any sence (hahaha). I came across freedom to fasicm and Ron Paul. From there I started learning more about how money was created/destroyed/devalued. In the process I learned about our debt bubble and eventually found a site doing a rent vs own comparison at which point my eyes were opened (I currently own, for two more LONG weeks). I started searching out all the information I could find and this blog seemed to have the most enlightened conversations! I am now hooked and spend way too much time here.

As a result of this blog and my other research I have gained enough confidence in the market direction that I listed and sold my house. I have advised many friends and family who have saved money as a result.

I figure if you want to know what is going to happen this blog will give the most warning outside of insider information. Thanks everyone!

Oh yeah, and Ron Paul is only presidential candidate who says the very same things said on this blog! I gave him money for the first time and will give more after closing! He is raising money faster than John Edwards (they are both having compititions to raise $1,000,000 by the 30. Ron Paul gave Edwards a 5 day head start in a 10 day contest and will surpass Edwards today.)

Comment by Professor Bear
2007-09-28 08:43:38

I would vote for Paul if given the chance. None of the other candidates seem very different from the usual standard of mediocrity served up by the U.S. political system.

 
 
Comment by oc-ed
2007-09-28 14:18:41

Good topic

I was a new dad of a 3 year old and shopping for a house in 2001 when the now Ex walked out. After a few years and a costly custody battle I started looking again and was blown away by the price escalation that had happened while I patched up the holes in the hull of my life. Every RE Agent I would talk with would answer my questions about affordability with the pitch to get into an ARM. When queried about restets, it was always, “You can refi in a few years into a fixed”. Hogwash. I wrote Lansner at the OC Register calling this a fiasco in the making because our communities were becoming investment farms. I am not sure exactly when I found this blog, but I know that it was a homecoming when I did. There were folks here who understood what I saw and shared my opinion about it. Man, I was glad to be here and am to this day. Thanks Ben, you done good. Thanks to everyone else here as well. A special thanks to GS/PB, John Law, twist, Melody, Thomas, la_investor_girl, crispy&cole, txchick57, aldinsane. and the list just goes on and on, y’all are the best!

Comment by CA renter
2007-09-29 03:09:59

Had a small house (under 1300 SF) and got married & started having kids. Around 2003, we needed to get a slightly bigger house and realized that even with “historically low” interest rates, our monthly payments would more than double what we were already paying (just for adding one bedroom in an otherwise comparable house). When I asked the RE agents how everyone could afford the prices, they all shrugged.

Around the same time, I noticed friends & acquaintances who couldn’t get a bank account just a few years prior (too many NSFs & bad credit) all of a sudden, they were getting loans for $300K and UP even though they were making less than we did (and we didn’t want to borrow more than $200K, max).

Anyhow, started Googling “housing bubble” in mid-2003 and was on a few troll-dominated blogs & forums until Ben’s blog finally came up in the search results. What a gift that was to finally talk with some like-minded folks who also didn’t understand why people were getting into ARMs & other exotic mortgages when fixed-rate mortgages were at historic lows. Also good to see others who didn’t think debt=wealth.

I can’t thank Ben enough for providing this blog to those of us who were looking for sanity in an insane world.

 
 
 
Comment by ejamie
2007-09-28 05:55:09

Ben, I’d like to see a post on the “Crisp & Cole” RE debacle in Bakersfield, CA. The picture is getting clearer now that this RE agency was committing fraud in a major way. Setting up straw buyers, acquiring multiple material loans concurrently, but not disclosing to the lender, not disclosing a home was intended for investment, making *verbal* lease-to-own commitments to their clients, etc…

I am interested in hearing thoughts from the community how widespread this RE agency behavior was during the bubble. And, whether there are other agencies with similiar tactics becoming visible now that the bubble waters are receding.

“As of the third week in September, Crisp, Cole, their companies, family members, employees and associates have defaulted on at least 94 properties. Payments are late on $58.76 million worth of home loans.”

http://www.bakersfield.com/102/story/242636.html

 
Comment by Renterfornow
 
Comment by Ft Lauderdale
2007-09-28 06:04:29

How about the dollar devaluation and what the implications will be? my in laws live in europe, I don’t think we will be visiting them this year, darn… sarcasm off

Comment by VT Dan
2007-09-28 06:45:37

Visit them now or be priced out forever!

Comment by WT Economist
2007-09-28 07:12:34

I guess one possibility is that instead of the price of housing falling by half, the value of the dollar will fall by half and the nominal cost of housing will stay the same.

Comment by ubaldus
2007-09-28 12:26:50

that’s a very real possibility. Dollar can easily keep falling 10 or even 15% a year for the next 2-3 years, even though euro and pound will at some point have to join it in race to the bottom.

Of course, without salaries rising (in dollars), this will not solve an affordability problem - there is not enough foreigners, interested in overpriced FL or NJ houses, even when it gets cheaper for them.

In any case, inflation and weak dollar can slow down the pace of price adjustment, and the main actors (Fed, banks, FBs) would certainly like that.
That’s why I feel very exposed holding all my assets in cash (though I moved some of them away from dollar, to AUD, NZD, CHF) - but buying a house in Miami (that’s where I live) looks even worse than holding dollars, at least for the next 12-18 months or so.

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Comment by Professor Bear
2007-09-28 08:40:59

I have a friend who is divorced, and who never gets to visit his kids (who live in Spain) for this very reason…

 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2007-09-28 07:31:39

Luckily around 85% of our countrymen don’t have passports, so there will be little financial trauma overseas for the hoi polloi…

 
Comment by Blano
2007-09-28 08:37:02

Careful….if the dollar falls too far, they might come visit YOU.

Comment by aladinsane
2007-09-28 08:38:39

I know my 85%’rs, they aren’t the least bit curious of anything in life…

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-09-28 08:39:28

Seems like the Fed is flirting with abandonment of the dollar’s reserve currency status in order to make sure that the stock market always goes up. Just my opinion, of course…

 
 
Comment by Magellan
2007-09-28 06:07:45

I didn’t see this while perusing, but I haven’t heard much in the way of the return of PMI (Private Mortgage Insurance). Since it pretty much went the way of the Dodo Bird over the last 5 years and was replaced by 80/20’s, 80/10/10’s and other piggyback loans, do mortgage experts think it will help them stabilize this mess and get more loans qualified? Are mortgage companies even going to go as far as to pay the premiums themselves just to protect their investment with the high rate of defaults going on?

Comment by Housing Wizard
2007-09-28 09:06:07

I think PMI insurance will be the wave of the future in lending ,(even on 80% loans ). How else are they going to get investors to invest in loans after all these foreclosures .Insurance will just raise the cost of money ,so again another cost of the greedy bastards ponzi schemes .

 
 
Comment by polly
2007-09-28 06:08:39

What should have happened to lending standards when the investor money started to be used to make home loans, not just reserves of bannks?

I would argue that if the rating aagencies had actually done their job, the pool of people who could get loans would have expanded to those with lower credit ratings, but they would have been required to pay a risk premium of several percentage points at least. This would have opened up a market niche for smaller, very affordable homes since a new group of borrowers paying high rates on their loans would have entered the market.

And I think the pooling of mortgages from all over would have resulted in a lower rate for borrowers with good credit and appropriate debt ratios because pooling eliminates the risk the banks used to take that the local economy would collapse due to a natural disaster or plant closing, etc.

Any other ideas?

 
Comment by Blano
2007-09-28 06:11:40

We hear about FB’s, mortgage companies, credit unions, and maybe some banks going under. What about Wall Street?? Why should they all be able to skate through??

Personally I’d like to see a couple big Wall Street firms go under (Bear, Merrill, you know what I mean). Would that be a bad thing??

Comment by Professor Bear
2007-09-28 20:02:09

“Why should they all be able to skate through??”

Apparently the Fed has decided to support the stock market and let the dollar do whatever. There is a potential silver lining out into the future — a lower dollar makes U.S. products cheaper on the export market, which should stimulate production in export industries going forward. Higher exports may actually (eventually) drive a rebound in the dollar, at which point the War on Savers may give way to a “cash is king” regime.

 
 
Comment by WT Economist
2007-09-28 06:14:43

Compiling articles on the New York real estate market and reading articles on the economy, I get the feeling that this is a turning point. There are hysterical rants pointing in each direction.

The question seems to be, will the U.S. gradually ease out of its role as the world’s biggest excess consumer and be pulled along by the rest of the world, with a lower standard of living but plenty of employment. Or will this all end with a crash, and with the dollar replaced as a reserve currency?

Either way, after years of sacrificing the future, it appears the future has arrived.

Comment by aladinsane
2007-09-28 06:17:28

The future’s uncertain and the end is always near…

 
Comment by Professor Bear
 
 
Comment by aeyra
2007-09-28 06:19:07

“I have often thought we should pool our resources to buy an 8BR shorefront mansion, just $100K apiece from (let’s say) 50 of us. The mathematically-inclined could send out maintenance and utility bills reflecting actual use of the time-shared property.”

Whoa whoa whoa….I thought that this was a RE bubble blog…what are we doing buying RE for? No meaning to be non-PC but housing needs to drop by at least 50% nationwide to be even remotely affordable. Has the NAR taken over this blog??? Houston we have a problem.

 
Comment by Salinasron
2007-09-28 06:39:41

I took another walk over the same 5 miles that I covered two days ago and saw three moving (Uhaul) vans loading up. Again, funny that they all waited until well after the schools started. Just down the street one owner who had a ‘for sale’ sign up for a month, replaced it with a ‘for rent’ sign for a week and then last weekend moved out. Yesterday new carpet was being installed. Another house that was 4bd, 2bath and listed FSBO two days ago now sports a ‘for rent’ sign.
I bring this up because I think it is once again time to alert potential RENTERS to the pitfalls of choosing a rental too quickly. We need to list the do’s and don’ts of renting in this highly inflamed RE market. For example, price alone should not dictate choice. You might want to check out with law enforcement the crime rate and type of crimes in the neighborhood. It might be better to go through a property management company where you can ask questions about the financial stability of the property owner; you might even want clauses written into the rental agreement that the property management company will reimburse you for moving expenses should the property go into foreclosure or sale. You might want written proof that any cleaning deposit be held in a trust account. You might want a written agreement that should the property be put up for sale that it cannot be shown until you vacate the premises. Etc.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-09-28 07:19:04

1) Does the Fed have a policy goal of deliberately driving the economy towards a quasi-permanent state of speculative euphoria, or do their policy measures only make it appear thus?

2) Do economies perform better when participants are irrationally exuberant, or when they have a level-headed assessment of the economic picture, including a healthy fear of potential downside risks to balance out hope for potential rewards?

“I ask you if anybody in early June could contemplate what we are now confronted with?” Mr. Greenspan said, referring to the eruption in credit market turmoil and risk aversion that originated with rising delinquencies on subprime mortgages. Mr. Greenspan cited business cycle pioneers Wesley Mitchell and Arthur Burns whose “underlying notion is what drives the economy was this vague and unquantifiable statistic called business confidence.” Through his career at both the Council of Economic Advisers under President Ford and Fed chairman from 1987 to 2006, he learned “the best of models don’t work all that well [because] the underlying structure that we’re endeavoring to model is continuing to morph into something else all the time.”

“There’s something we don’t model appropriately, which is a profoundly important statistic, and that is the unchanging, innate character of human nature. The behavior of what we are observing in the last seven weeks is identical to what we saw in 1998, what we saw in the stock market crash of 1987, I suspect what we saw in the land boom collapse of 1837, an certainly 1907,” when a major bank panic was only stopped by the intervention of J.P. Morgan. Economists try to build a model of the economy whose structure is the same during expansions and contractions, he said, and “when we endeavor to apply [it] to periods like this [it] gives us very little.”

http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2007/09/greg-ip-on-gree.html

Comment by Housing Wizard
2007-09-28 09:11:34

Good topic PB. Interesting how the market soared on the concept of leverage against a item of hyped up value like real estate .

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-09-28 10:31:49

Some MSM commentators find the Fed’s War on Savers rather disturbing.

Investors to Fed: Thanks for nothing
The reckless are getting relief from Bernanke while the prudent are paying the price, argues Fortune’s Allan Sloan.
FORTUNE Magazine
By Allan Sloan, Fortune senior-editor-at-large
September 28 2007: 1:07 PM EDT

(Fortune Magazine) — One of the core principles - of the U.S. medical profession is the Hippocratic oath, the most famous part of which is “Do no harm.” It’s too bad that the governors of the Federal Reserve Board don’t have to take such a pledge when they assume office, because their recent interest rate cut has done a lot of harm to those of us who’ve managed our finances prudently.

Even though the Fed’s stated reason for cutting short-term interest rates by half a point was to help keep the economy from falling into recession, anyone who’s been paying attention knows that a major motivation - if not the major motivation - was to try to calm the turbulence that has been roiling the markets since August.

The stock market has never seen a rate cut it didn’t like. But Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke is penalizing the prudent.

…if we taxpayers are going to bail out the likes of Countrywide Financial (Charts, Fortune 500), even indirectly, I’d like us to get a market return on our money. That would reward us for the risk we’re taking and seriously penalize companies that so overindulge that they need Dr. Ben’s Magical Money Elixir.

http://money.cnn.com/2007/09/28/news/economy/sloan_bernanke.fortune/?postversion=2007092811

Comment by WatchingTheSagaUnfold
2007-09-29 00:07:30

‘Dr. Ben’s Magical Money Elixir’

Bwaaahaha!

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-09-28 10:41:43

In response to this writer’s kvetch, I raise the serious question: Is there a viable alternative to the current global central banking cartel, which would move the world economy away from a focus on financial manipulation through serial crises and subsequent bailouts designed to funnel money into the hands of the top 3%, and towards a renewed focus on real economic production activities which work to the benefit of the greater societal good?

THE BEAR’S LAIR
The Goetterdammerung of central banking
By Martin Hutchinson

After pretending an unwonted firmness for a few weeks, the central banks in both Britain and the United States caved last week, accepting financial-sector bailouts and, in the US Federal Reserve’s case, lowering interest rates. Moral hazard has thus been made immoral certainty; financial-market participants who indulge in grossly speculative activity can be “highly confident” (in the words of the old Drexel Burnham commitment letters) that they will be bailed out by the taxpayer. Rarely has there been such an obvious subsidy of the overpaid by the beleaguered. It raises the question: What if anything is the point of central banks in the new world we have entered?

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/II26Dj01.html

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-09-28 10:50:18

Some big wigs see no moral hazard issues facing the Fed, and are busy editorializing their gospel truth in every corner of the globe. Did it ever dawn on these folks that a standing policy of free bailout insurance for dumb financial decisions might increase the incidence of dumb financial decisions, and that this might be very costly to economies (say, in the form of 2.6 million vacant homes that nobody wants or needs)???

Fed can’t be captive to ‘moral hazard’ fundamentalism
Lawrence Summers | September 25, 2007

CENTRAL to every policy discussion in response to a financial crisis or the prospect of a crisis is the concept of moral hazard.

Unfortunately, there is great confusion in many quarters about the circumstances when moral hazard is, and is not, a problem. The world has at least as much to fear from a moral hazard fundamentalism that precludes actions enhancing confidence and stability as it does from moral hazard itself.

The term “moral hazard” originally comes from the area of insurance. It refers to the prospect that insurance will distort behaviour, for example when holders of fire insurance take less precaution to avoid fire or when holders of health insurance use more healthcare than they would if they were not insured.

In the financial arena the spectre of moral hazard is invoked to oppose policies that reduce the losses of financial institutions that have made bad decisions. It is used to caution against creating an expectation that there will be future “bailouts”.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22473275-36375,00.html

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-09-28 19:48:23

“2) Do economies perform better when participants are irrationally exuberant, or when they have a level-headed assessment of the economic picture, including a healthy fear of potential downside risks to balance out hope for potential rewards?”

The first exhibit I have to present on this subject are all the POS McMansions that were hastily spewed across the U.S. landscape over the bubble years (1998-2007). Speculative euphoria tends to cloud the judgment of buyers, leading to a willingness to pay for shoddy construction far in excess of rational valuations.

 
 
Comment by simplesimon
2007-09-28 07:49:10

lets discuss..neg amortization and its effect on the securites markets in pricing as they explode due to defaults.

Comment by Professor Bear
2007-09-28 08:08:07

Seems like this discussion extends to time bombs on lender balance sheets as well — didn’t they book the increase in debt balances due to negative amortization in the asset column?

Comment by GPBlank
2007-09-28 16:25:45

Ranked by asset size, WAMU is going to be the largest bank in the country in a few years due to their time-bomb growing in the asset column.

Comment by Matt_in_TX
2007-09-28 19:39:18

You mean, as measured by area (after the explosion?)

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Comment by spike66
2007-09-28 20:00:36

I am so happy. I got my youngest bro to sell his WAMU stock.He has never listened to me about anything and since 2005 has been telling me there is no housing bubble. Took a chance and sent him an email with some posts attached. Yowza, he sold at 37 and change. Finally, someone in my family listened to me. It will never happen again.

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Comment by Professor Bear
2007-09-28 20:26:12

My siblings ignore my Nostradamusian advice. My baby sister owns two homes in the midwest (against my strongest admonition), and the news I see out of there suggests she is in for a rude awakening when she and hubby finally get the home they are vacating ready to sell.

 
Comment by aladinsane
2007-09-29 04:09:07

A couple of months ago, I had a heart to heart with my mom, about what I could clearly see coming down the pike…

She’s sitting on boucoup stocks, and I pleased with her to turn just 20% of it into physical Gold, my reasoning being that it would save my sisters from themselves, vis a vis 2 of them, owning 5 houses.

One sister owes a Million on mortgages, and her husband put the kabosh to my idea, and as he seemingly has more influence than I.

I wonder who will save their sorry behinds, when push comes to shove.

I tried.

 
Comment by aladinsane
2007-09-29 05:25:10

pleaded, that is

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-09-28 08:12:19

Bottom callers are now looking to recovery “in the second half of 2008 or later.” Don’t forget to keep your eye on that tsunami of Alt-A and prime ARM resets that doesn’t crest until 2010 or so. The water that will fuel this wave has barely left the beach.

THE FED
Housing bottom ‘could be a ways off:’ Lockhart
By Greg Robb, MarketWatch
Last Update: 10:16 AM ET Sep 28, 2007

WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) — The bottom of the housing market may not be reached until the second half of 2008 or later, according to Dennis Lockhart, the new president of the Atlanta Federal Reserve Bank.
“I believe the bottom of the housing downturn could be a ways off — potentially the second half of 2008 or later,” Lockhart said Friday in a speech at Middle Tennessee State University.

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/housing-market-bottom-ways-off-feds/story.aspx?guid=%7BECA13AF1%2D3517%2D4732%2D8DDE%2D25A87E5B2E19%7D

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-09-28 08:22:12

“Your search has returned the first 200 of 20978 homes”

SD’s ziprealty.com inventory (SFRs + condos) is increasing towards 21,000 at the onset of the fourth quarter. Doesn’t housing inventory normally decrease during the lukewarm fall sales season?

Do those who are paying attention see similar unusual signs of increasing inventories into the holiday season? I am guessing a very large number of days on the market awaits some of these would-be sellers.

Comment by Professor Bear
2007-09-28 19:44:11

“Your search has returned the first 200 of 21023 homes”

DING DING DING!!!

SD ziprealty.com inventory has just hit 21,000 SFRs+Condos for the first time in 2007, just in time for the ice cold holiday sales season!

Time for me to go enjoy another glass of fine but cheaply-priced low-end California wine…

 
 
Comment by zeropointzero
2007-09-28 08:30:01

I’ve got two suggestions — maybe for this week, or maybe for some future week.

1) Where would you like to live? What city, town, community or neighborhood would you really like to live in. It doesn’t have to be “practical” in terms of your current situation — assume you have enough money to live reasonably well in your destination, or could earn a good living there — but I am not really looking for the Tahiti or French Riviera answers. Or name a couple, if it suits you. It needent be reasonable in terms of the housing market or economics (assume you’ll at least do ok in terms of future value). I’m just interested in a roll call of places people that people have that “I wish I could live there” thoughts.

My number one choice would probably be right on the water at Pawley’s Island, SC (south of Myrtle Beach) — in a decent house right on the water. Of course, I’d fret actually “owning” a house on that precarious spit of water (with almost no sand dunes left on the ocean) - but I really enjoy that place. Nice golf nearby.

2) Describe an overpriced listing or FB situation in your town or neighborhood. You can either describe in general terms, or you can provide specific addesses, prices and/or MLS listing — whatever suits you. Everybody’s got to have at least one “Oh my gosh, they’ll never sell that” or “I can’t believe they paid that much” story. (I’ll have to do some research on that).

Comment by Ouro Verde
2007-09-28 09:38:17

San Malo, California.

Comment by Ouro Verde
2007-09-28 09:43:45

PrIvate beach community between touristy Carlsbad and “anything goes” oceanside. Its actually built to look like San Malo in France. Old Pasadena money and very old homes.
Its the last affordable place to buy beach property in California.

Comment by CA renter
2007-09-29 03:38:55

I know exactly the area you’re talking about. Very nice homes, but it looks like the smallest of waves would drench the whole community. They seem to be built just barely above water level, though I’ve not had an up-close look due to the gates.

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Comment by Matt_in_TX
2007-09-28 20:13:33

1) http://www.panoramio.com/photo/2110548
Fauntlee Hills, Seattle, WA (Overlooking Puget Sound bove the ferry dock to Vashon Island.)

(Shameless plug for my photo ;)

2) also West Seattle. http://www.zillow.com/HomeDetails.htm?zprop=48933754
I helped build a deck on this house or a close neighbor in late 1980s (didn’t recognize the address). Friends bought it for $85k, sold it a couple years later for $140k. Now probably over 400K (This one is $423 for $1300 sqft) It is a block off the sound with one of those sliver views of water if you crane your neck on the sofa.

I’m not really claiming it is overpriced. Just: I want my part of that “deck money” ;)

 
 
Comment by Housing Wizard
2007-09-28 09:20:55

Interesting ,the NBC business show just had a few of their experts discussing the fact that if we are currently in recession ,than the stocks are to high ,but if we are not in recession than they aren’t to high .
These are the same cheerleaders that claimed a couple of weeks ago that all is well and global markets are good etc.
So, my point is that these clowns don’t known anything and they are just a bunch of cheerleaders .
With real estate crashing ,how can a honest person even say this won’t affect the stock market .
I just don’t think its right to be pushing another bubble in the stock market now.

Comment by aladinsane
2007-09-28 09:27:01

2,4,6,8 Education usually comes too late…

Go Team!

 
 
Comment by bayparkwatcher
2007-09-28 09:51:59

This is a really shallow topic suggestion…but I’d like to see some comments about how long decorating trends last. I admit I’m still hooked on the show “Property Ladder,” mainly because it seems to be the most honest about the profits (or lack thereof), there is lots of fighting between partners, and many disastrous remodeling decisions (yes, I am mean-spirited!). I am sick, sick, sick of seeing flippers installing granite countertops and stainless steel appliances in crappy homes in crappy neighborhoods in crappy markets. These features look ridiculous. A few years ago, you only saw these amenities touted in luxury home advertising real estate magazines.

Disclosure: My parents’ So Cal home still features Brady Bunch colors and decorating style.

Comment by speedingpullet
2007-09-28 10:42:49

Disclosure: My parents’ So Cal home still features Brady Bunch colors and decorating style

Strangely enough, its starting to come back into fashion. First, we get flares a.k.a ‘Boot Cu’t pants, now we get dark brown and orange as a ‘fashionable’ colours.

Go figure.

Comment by bayparkwatcher
2007-09-28 11:20:12

LOL. Come to think of it, you’re right. My teenaged daughter recently wanted to paint one of the walls in her room that hideous Brady avocado. At the paint store, I successfully pulled off reverse psychology, “Oh, honey, I LOVE that color!” She went for a muted but darkish brown.

 
 
 
Comment by Michael Viking
2007-09-28 10:10:59

Gold and precious metals and we’re they’re going. I finally broke down and bought a little, but now I’m wondering if I should buy more.

Comment by aladinsane
2007-09-28 10:14:30

You and everybody else, it would appear..

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-09-28 19:58:37

I would also suggest getting a piece of the U.S. stock market at this point, as it is clear the Fed intends to ensure the stock market always goes up, no matter how far down the dollar goes.

 
 
Comment by need 2 leave ca
2007-09-28 10:13:00

well known celebrities going down?
A well known TV personality in Salt Lake being prosecuted for mortgage fraud. My mom told me about that last night. Here is link. I found those other ’stories’ while looking for this one. Enjoy watching a celebrity (even if in a localized area) go down.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=1868459

 
Comment by Ouro Verde
2007-09-28 10:31:32

Ok lets talk about the war on savers and how my 90 day bondfund just went way down. It’s not even bad yet. My fragile income is based on banks being rescued. MRI’s?

 
Comment by CArefugee
2007-09-28 10:58:00

How about talking about the possible impact the low dollar may have on overseas buyers coming in an buying up residential real estate, which is a deal if you’re using euros to do it.

Comment by Professor Bear
2007-09-28 11:04:15

Good thing most wealthy European countries face looming housing crashes of their own, or else your point would be cause for concern.

Comment by aladinsane
2007-09-28 11:12:57

We’ve alienated so many potential visitors to our country with our pithy rhetoric and they are staying away in droves…

You reap what you sow~

 
 
Comment by Hoz
2007-09-28 11:38:16

I frankly do not believe that any foreign individual (with the exception of Canadians) would buy any POS house/condo in the US. The culture of Southern California is traffic jams and for $700k US it is easier and more desirable to buy a place on the Aegean. Canadians in British Columbia could conceivably buy a second home in Washington State for half the price in BC. But I can buy an ocean front place in the Bay of Fundy for less than I can buy in Maine.

Comment by spike66
2007-09-28 20:07:51

Hoz,
I watch prices in Nova Scotia like a hawk. Thought of buying there or Grand Manan because I was priced out of midcoast Maine, and the slower pace was closer to old Maine. But, NS
is in a major bubble, over 3 years, I have tracked houses jumping hugely. Now, I have to wait for a crash there too.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-09-28 13:16:21

European second home buyers have other concerns at the moment besides investing in dollar-devalued U.S. real estate…

Warning on European second homes
By Jim Pickard in London and Mark Mulligan in Madrid
Published: September 28 2007 18:41 | Last updated: September 28 2007 18:41

The price of second homes in the Mediterranean and eastern Europe could fall as a result of the credit crisis, a leading property expert has warned.

Michael Ball, a professor of property at Reading ­University, England, and an adviser to the UK government, said holiday homes in many parts of Europe were exposed to a correction.

Not only had prices risen fast amid speculative interest and the easy availability of credit, but the supply of new flats had been increasing at a prolific rate.

Prof Ball pinpointed the Mediterranean and central and eastern Europe as being particularly “vulnerable” to falling prices.

“There are a variety of reasons in that in both of those areas, credit has been used and people have been very optimistic about long term values,” he told an audience of property professionals on Thursday night.

“There has been a boom, the market has been driven by foreign investors and now that is beginning to turn.”

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f29aeeb8-6de8-11dc-b8ab-0000779fd2ac.html

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-09-28 11:11:55

Where do proposals to raise GSE limits in order to carry out a stealth bailout of wealthy homeowners* and their Jumbo-loan enablers stand?

*Households who can afford to buy homes which require loans over $417,000 to finance the purchases

GSEs May Soon Purchase Jumbo Loans But Other Limits Are Not Budging

Several Executive Branch surrogates indicated late last week that the Administration was sort of willing to compromise about the role of Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae in solving the current credit crunch. But the announcements made and the methods proposed seem to this reporter to be little, late, and misdirected. The two Government Sponsored Enterprises (GSEs) - Freddie and Fannie - seemed a little confused about what was happening as well.

For months the two GSEs have had a lid firmly clamped on the size of their respective portfolios because of earlier accounting difficulties which, in the case of Fannie, are not yet totally resolved. Any loans exceeding these portfolio limits could not be held by the two mortgage giants but had to be spun off in one of several ways into the private sector, and that private sector is, of late, less willing to play the mortgage game.

http://www.mortgagenewsdaily.com/9252007_GSE_Portfolio_Caps.asp

Comment by Professor Bear
2007-09-28 13:11:55

How will the GSEs ever hope to fulfill their affordable housing mandate if they proceed to subsidize demand for unaffordably-priced housing (over $417,000)? Certainly their economists learned in their undergraduate micro course that increasing demand leads to higher, not lower, prices. This course seems rather like shooting one’s self in the foot.

Freddie Mac chief warns of recession
By Saskia Scholtes, David Wighton and Stacy-Marie Ishmael in New York
Published: September 27 2007 22:18 | Last updated: September 28 2007 00:33

The US economy faces a 40 to 45 per cent risk of recession induced by the housing market downturn, the chief executive of Freddie Mac warned on Thursday as data showed sales of new homes hit a seven-year low in August.

Richard Syron, chief executive of the government-sponsored mortgage company, said the credit squeeze had left some parts of the US housing market “literally frozen”. This was a “substantial depressive to the overall economy”. He forecast the Federal Reserve would make another “material” cut in interest rates.

Mr Syron also predicted that Congress would bring some relief to the troubled US mortgage industry by lifting restraints on the operations of Freddie Mac and its sister mortgage company, Fannie Mae.

He said the $417,000 ceiling on the size of home loans they can buy was likely to be raised to help support the US mortgage market.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/8b86afc6-6d36-11dc-ab19-0000779fd2ac.html

Comment by Professor Bear
2007-09-28 19:56:45

All the bailout talk is helping to freeze the U.S. housing markets and putting Realtors out of work. So long as owners (especially banks holding REO) hold out hope that bailouts will make them whole, they have no reason to lower their prices to levels buyers currently in the market have the means to afford, and hence the market is seized up much like an engine that threw a rod.

 
 
 
Comment by are they crazy
2007-09-28 15:31:21

Weekend topic - how does higher ed mirror what is happening with the housing market? Prices skyrocketed around the time all the student loan programs and offers proliferated. If kids and/or their parents couldn’t do college on credit, would prices go back down? Is Higher Ed Fiancing another bubble? The other way this relates is with more people being college educated and obtaining post grad degrees, how come we have so many more ignorant sheeple? So many are too “busy” (lazy) to learn or research and few seem to have any dignity or pride - they are willing to announce to the public that they were victims and are ruined.

 
Comment by aladinsane
2007-09-28 17:07:29

“The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.”

George Bernard Shaw

 
Comment by margo
2007-09-28 18:53:06

on renters taking precautions– We’re retired Navy, & have heard horror stories for years from all the young sailors who got rooked. One poor guy rented a furnished home from an ad in the paper by the “owner”. Sailor wrote “owner” a check for 2000 grand (rent plus sect’y deposit) & had his young wife fly in from P’cola to move into their new home. Where they lived quite happily, for one month, til the night they heard somebody in the living room bumping about. Sailor rushes into LR with baseball bat & flips on lights, to confront elderly grey-haired granny with suitcases clutching her heart saying “take my money but please don’t kill me!” Turns out, Granny left key to her house with ne’er do well nephew while she went to Arizona for 2 months, & the punk “rented” it while she was gone. Sailor put out of home, & out 2000 grand. Moral: ask for ID from “owner” & proof of ownership, before handing over checks. Any other “renter beware!” tips from anybody else?

 
Comment by Matt_in_TX
2007-09-28 19:09:39

My summary:
The onslaught of “lowest-low” fertility rates in the western world has the potential to be a much much more important and immediate effect on the fabric of life in the 21st century than climate change. Why is this happening? One theory is delaying child rearing. If so, why? Could the housing markets be a factor?

——————–
Home-ownership regimes and lowest-low fertility

http://www.tudelft.nl/live/binaries/72d39530-86ea-4a35-8768-a67e45b91c94/doc/Mulder%20and%20Billari.pdf

Some quotes:

“While no direct studies on the relationship between housing policies and fertility seem to be available, there is some evidence that the characteristics of the housing market and its related public policies affect the pattern of youth emancipation and reproductive decisions” (2005, p. 133).

The results of these studies suggest that some couples postpone marriage or parenthood because they are not able to become homeowners. These results are consistent with the finding for West Germany and the Netherlands that homeowners are more likely than renters to have a first child (Mulder & Wagner, 2001).

The idea that difficult access to home-ownership influences fertility can easily be extended to the macro level of countries: family formation might be hampered (and thus fertility levels lowered) in countries with difficult access to home-ownership.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-09-28 20:40:15

Does anyone have a tally of the number of U.S. mortgage lenders that have not gone out of business this year? And how about the share of all lenders as of the beginning of 2007 that went belly up so far this year by size of their operations (more informative than mere bean counting as on ml-implode.com )?

Problems Mount for 2 Mortgage Firms
Article Tools Sponsored By
By BLOOMBERG NEWS
Published: September 27, 2007

Shares in Fremont General, the embattled California savings and loan, dropped the most yesterday since March after the billionaire banker Gerald J. Ford abandoned a rescue plan.

Fremont fell 19 percent in New York trading after Mr. Ford, the former chief executive of Golden State Bancorp, told the company he was “not prepared to consummate” an $80 million investment under terms agreed to in May. The shares have lost two-thirds of their value since Mr. Ford announced his bailout plan.

Also yesterday, Luminent Mortgage Capital, the home-loan investment company, said yesterday that second-quarter profit was lower than first reported as bankers seized assets and cut off credit.

Net income declined to $8.8 million, from $17.6 million, the company, based in San Francisco, said in a regulatory filing. Per share profit dropped to 20 cents, from 45 cents. In an initial report last month, the company said that it earned $13.4 million, or 30 cents.

Record foreclosures and more overdue payments on home loans have made bankers reluctant to extend credit to mortgage companies, and investors in short-term commercial paper are shunning issuers like Luminent whose solvency is in doubt. The company said last month that it might not survive, and added yesterday that there was “no assurance” its recovery plan would work.

Agreements to acquire mortgage firms including Accredited Home Lenders Holding in San Diego and the PHH Corporation, a lender based in Mount Laurel, N.J., have collapsed this year as foreclosures rose to a record. Fremont was the country’s fifth-biggest subprime lender until it was ordered by regulators to stop making loans in March.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/27/business/27lend.html?ref=business

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-09-28 20:41:13

Let me guess: SCME is short for “Screw Me?

https://www.scmeonline.com/existbrokersql.taf

Comment by Professor Bear
2007-09-28 20:42:48

“As you are aware, the liquidity crisis in the mortgage lending industry has adversely impacted nearly every major mortgage originator, mortgage investor, and warehouse lender. SCME is no exception. We have spent a great deal of time analyzing the market and SCME’s role in the future of mortgage banking. There is every indication that the liquidity crisis will continue for the foreseeable future, causing significant challenges to our organization.”

Are they saying in as many words that every major mortgage originator, mortgage investor, and warehouse lender is screwed?

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-09-28 20:52:23

What does D.R. Horton have to hide from the press? Perhaps they are afraid of reporting on abysmal auction sales results? Or auction sales prices? OR BOTH???

More Business news
D.R. Horton to limit attendance at auction of condos
By Emmet Pierce
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER
September 28, 2007

SAN DIEGO – D.R. Horton, the nation’s largest builder, is limiting attendance at its planned auction Saturday of condominiums at two local developments, according to the firm it hired to run the event.

Late Friday afternoon, Real Estate Disposition Corp. (REDC) said that only registered bidders with $5,000 in cash or cashier’s check would be permitted to attend.

We are going to be closing the auction to the press tomorrow,” said Michael Schack, senior vice president of REDC. “We are only allowing registered bidders in. We are not allowing cameras, photography, press, media. It is not our choice.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/business/20070928-9999-1bn28auction.html

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-09-28 21:03:16

Did the Fed’s overnight transformation from inflation vigilante to easy lender of last resort summarily end the credit crunch? Or do more shoes remain to be dropped?

Fragile markets risk relapse
By Krishna Guha and Michael Mackenzie in New York
Published: September 29 2007 01:53 | Last updated: September 29 2007 01:53

Markets and the world economy are in a no-man’s-land 11 days after the US Federal Reserve’s dramatic half-point interest rate cut.

The liquidity squeeze in credit markets has eased a little, as Robert Steel, the US Treasury under-secretary, said this week.

But conditions in the interbank money market and other troubled corners of the financial system remain far from normal.

Now comes a nerve-racking wait to discover whether the credit squeeze has pushed the US economy on to a sharply weaker growth path that could end in a recession in spite of the Fed’s efforts on rates.

If the US economy does deteriorate severely from here, sickly credit markets would have to absorb another shock: this time from rising expected defaults on a wide range of US assets. That could put the market healing process into reverse.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/73c4b3bc-6e1a-11dc-b8ab-0000779fd2ac.html

Comment by Professor Bear
2007-09-28 21:05:35

At least the (clueless) U.S. consumer remains unfazed…

US consumers unfazed by market turmoil
By Daniel Pimlott in New York
Published: September 28 2007 18:54 | Last updated: September 28 2007 18:54

US consumer spending was strong in August in spite of the credit squeeze and market turmoil, while inflation fell, in a hopeful sign for the country’s economy’s ability to avoid a recession.

Spending adjusted for inflation grew at its fastest pace of the year at 0.6 per cent last month, up from a 0.4 rise in July, although personal incomes grew slightly slower than forecasts, according to data from the commerce department.

Real consumer durable goods spending, which covers big-ticket items such as cars, refrigerators, and flat-screen televisions, jumped 2.8 per cent, also the highest level this year. Spending on such expensive items is significant because it can be an indication of consumer confidence. Figures out last week had indicated that consumer confidence in September was at a near two-year low.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/687f7a80-6dea-11dc-b8ab-0000779fd2ac.html

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-09-28 21:10:53

Oops…

Credit markets
Still gloomy
Sep 27th 2007
From The Economist print edition
Debt markets threaten to undermine the Fed’s goal of restoring order

WAS that it then? From a shareholder’s standpoint, it certainly looked as if the Federal Reserve had administered a miracle cure to stockmarkets with its spoonful of easy money on September 18th. Bankers began to talk of the worst being over and done with. In the debt markets, however, a more jaundiced view prevails. Lingering pessimism—in overnight money markets right along the yield curve to long-term bonds—is likely to make the Fed’s task harder as it seeks to revive the economy.

For one thing, the reaction of America’s bond market to the interest-rate cut was different from previous rate-cutting cycles (see chart). Instead of falling, as they have in the recent past, ten-year bond yields rose, as investors fretted that the Fed’s largesse would stoke inflation. In America and the euro zone yields came off their highs on September 25th, when weak economic data eased inflationary concerns. But economists polled by Bloomberg still expect ten-year yields in America to remain above their levels before the rate cut.

That does not bode well for American mortgage rates, which tend to rise along with long-term Treasury-bond yields. Indeed, the price of a 30-year fixed-rate mortgage has risen by seven basis points since last week, according to bankrate.com, a personal-finance website. That raises concerns about how little the Fed’s rate cuts may help the housing market.

http://economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9867498

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-09-28 21:13:55

America’s bubble twas a mere flesh wound…

Economics focus
Houses built on sand
Sep 13th 2007
From The Economist print edition
America’s housing boom was almost modest by global standards—which is worrying

EVERYTHING in America is bigger. Cars, hotel rooms, servings at dinner, the salaries of sports stars and chief executives. So anything that merits the adjective “jumbo” is extravagantly large. Except, that is, for shrimp and home loans. In America a jumbo mortgage is one that exceeds the authorised limit for loans bought and securitised by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the government-sponsored lenders. That cap was increased this year, to $417,000—a sum that, at today’s exchange rates and prices, is barely enough to buy a cramped flat in the outer suburbs of London. Could it be that America’s housing boom, which has now turned horribly sour, was not even super-sized?

That is what The Economist’s table of house-price indicators shows (below). The S&P/Case-Shiller national index, the best gauge of American house prices, peaked last year after rising by 134% in the previous decade. France, Sweden and Denmark have all had booms of similar size. In Britain, Australia, Spain and Ireland, the ten-year increase in house prices has been even larger. If America is staring at a nasty housing crash, what does this say about the fate of frothy markets elsewhere?

http://economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9804125

Comment by Professor Bear
2007-09-28 21:17:02

Canaries in the coal mines of national and international housing markets:

San Diego is the U.S. national housing market’s canary, and the U.S. national housing market is the rest of the first-world bubble markets’ canary.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-09-28 21:18:10

Correction: Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac
Sep 27th 2007
From The Economist print edition

The authorised limit for mortgages purchased by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac rose to today’s level of $417,000 in 2006. It was not increased this year as we said on September 13th (see article). Sorry.

http://economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9867523

 
 
Comment by reuven
2007-09-28 23:11:15

From the Wall Street Journal: “Is Florida Over”

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119100802312142956-email.html

Comment by reuven
2007-09-28 23:19:05

They even mention that speculators drive up *property taxes*, something that few people seem to care about or notice. (Why anyone who plans to live in his house would want the assessed value to *increase* has always been a mystery to me! I want the perceived value of my house to be as little as possible.)

 
 
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