October 12, 2007

Marking To Myth In A Hall Of Mirrors

Some housing bubble news from Wall Street and Washington. Bloomberg, “Centex Corp., the fourth-largest U.S. homebuilder, said it will have about $1 billion in expenses to write down property as the U.S. housing slump worsens. The charge, the second-largest announced by a builder in the past quarter, comes as Centex’s sales fell 13 percent in the fiscal second quarter and compares with $268.4 million in net income the company reported in the last fiscal year.”

“‘The housing market continues to be extremely difficult,’ CEO Timothy Eller said today in a statement. ‘These adjustments reflect the market’s further deterioration over the quarter and the significant effects of the mortgage- market disruptions.’”

“Five of largest homebuilders have recorded real estate writedowns and expenses of almost $4.7 billion in their most recent quarters. The 15 biggest companies have $7.75 billion in debt due through 2009 and are now selling homes at almost any price they can get.”

From MarketWatch. “‘The level of impairments was more than expected,’ said Morgan Stanley analyst Robert Stevenson regarding Centex’s announcement. ‘This news reaffirms our belief that book value is heading even lower as housing pricing declines escalate,’ he wrote.”

“Although Stevenson said that Centex’s sales, closings and backlog declines don’t appear as large as competitors, he pointed out the company didn’t release any pricing data. ‘We expect that many of these orders and closings were driven by aggressive discounting, and worry that the cancellation rate on orders will meaningfully reduce orders,’ he warned.”

“‘Continued oversupply and under-demand, coupled with book values that remain in a free fall, and few near-term catalysts (other than Fed rate cuts) keep us cautious on the homebuilders, and we expect further underperformance,’ the analyst wrote.”

From CNBC. “Moody’s Investors Service on Thursday cut its ratings on home builders Centex, Lennar and Pulte Homes to junk status, saying it expects bleak housing industry conditions to linger at least until 2009.”

“The downgrades affect about $9.4 billion of debt and $3.25 billion of commercial paper authorizations, Moody’s said.”

“Key problems facing homebuilders include rapidly declining orders, high housing inventories, disruptions in the mortgage market and heavy cancellations, Moody’s said in a statement.”

“Moody’s Investors Service lowered ratings on $33.4 billion of securities backed by subprime mortgages, the biggest downgrade yet, saying losses on delinquent home loans will continue to rise.”

“The 2,187 securities were issued in 2006 and represent 7.8 percent of the original dollar volume of the debt rated by Moody’s, according to a statement Thursday by the credit ratings company.”

“One percent of U.S. subprime mortgages with interest rates that began to adjust in January, April and July were modified to help homeowners avoid default, Moody’s said.”

“The company now expects losses from seriously delinquent loans will be 40 percent to 50 percent, up from a traditional level of about 35 percent.”

“‘It is very challenging to come up with an assumption for losses because we don’t have many yet,’ said Nicolas Weill, Moody’s chief credit officer for structured finance. ‘To come up with an assumption we talked to a lot of servicers and we do have some losses coming in. We know that some areas will have more than 40 percent and others will have less.’”

From Reuters. “Moody’s Investors Service said it may skip its typical process of putting debt ratings on review first and accelerate rating cuts of collateralized debt obligations tied to subprime bonds, a director said on Friday.”

“‘We feel this may be warranted,’ Yuri Yoshizawa, a managing director for Moody’s U.S. derivatives group, said during a conference call on Friday. Performance of underlying subprime bonds have ‘deteriorated at an unprecedented pace.’”

“On July 11, Moody’s placed $5 billion worth of debt comprising 184 tranches from 91 CDOs on review for possible downgrade.”

“‘We expect many of these tranches will be further impacted from yesterday’s rating action,’ said Yoshizawa, noting debt originated in 2006 and the first half of 2007 have the greatest level of exposure.”

“Bond insurer Ambac Financial Group said that it expects an unrealized loss of $743 million from marking its credit derivatives portfolio to market at the end of September.”

“Ambac insures municipal bonds and structured credit products such as collateralized debt obligations. They became popular in recent years and many invested in subprime mortgage-backed securities, helping to fuel the U.S. housing boom. But now that delinquencies and foreclosures are rising, some parts of CDOs have been downgraded and have fallen in value.”

The Buffalo News. “M&T Bank Corp. on Thursday reported a loan loss provision of $34 million during the quarter, twice the $17 million it reserved in the third quarter of 2006. Bad loans on its books more than doubled to $371 million, including so-called ‘Alt-A’ mortgages to borrowers with good credit who didn’t want to prove their income.”

“‘It’s a pretty tough environment,’ said Chief Financial Officer Rene Jones.”

“M&T is the first of the nation’s largest banks to report earnings, and as such represents somewhat of a bellwether for the industry. It’s also highly regarded for its conservative underwriting and operations.”

“‘M&T is first out of the chute for banks,’ said bank analyst Joseph Fenech. ‘I don’t really see much to get excited about in the quarter, but they’re going to look a heck of a lot better than a lot of other guys.’”

“Credit quality deteriorated, as $42 million in loans to mostly Mid-Atlantic home builders and developers went sour.”

“The largest single loan to go bad was a $32 million credit to a developer on the eastern shore of Maryland. M&T is now reviewing appraisals on all home builder loans every six months to ensure it still has enough collateral, he added.”

“Also, $26 million in ‘Alt-A’ mortgages with nontraditional terms were no longer performing. The bank tried to sell $883 million in such loans in January, but pulled them back to its own books when the mortgage crisis left it unable to get a good bid. It still has $1.3 billion in total Alt-A exposure, but is now only making loans it can sell.”

The Wall Street Journal. “Since the invention of the ticker tape 140 years ago, America has been able to boast of having the world’s most transparent financial markets.”

“These days, after a decade of frantic growth in mortgage-backed securities and other complex investments traded off exchanges, that clarity is gone. Large parts of American financial markets have become a hall of mirrors.”

“The hazards of this new age of uncertainty became clear at Dillon Read in March, when rising defaults by homeowners were hammering the value of mortgage securities. John Niblo, a hedge-fund manager at the firm, acted fast. He twice slashed his fund’s valuation of securities tied to ’subprime’ mortgages, knocking them down by about 20%, or nearly $100 million, say traders familiar with the matter.”

“But managers at UBS AG, Dillon Read’s parent company, were irate. The Swiss banking giant was carrying similar securities on its books at a far higher price, the traders say.”

“In conference calls, the UBS managers grilled Mr. Niblo on his move. ‘I’m marking to where I could reasonably sell them,’ Mr. Niblo responded during one call, according to the traders familiar with the conversations.”

“UBS later shut down the in-house hedge fund, and Mr. Niblo was let go in August. Last week, UBS announced a $3.7 billion write-down on $23 billion of securities with mortgage exposure, including securities from the shuttered fund.”

“Today, ‘way less than half’ of all securities trade on exchanges with readily available price information, according to Goldman Sachs Group Inc. analyst Daniel Harris. More and more securities are priced by dealers who don’t publish quotes.”

“Billionaire investor Warren Buffett advocates more transparency in pricing. ‘Some marks can be pretty imaginative,” he says. ‘They call it ‘marking to market,’ but it’s really marking to myth.’ He says that before funds publish financial statements, they should sell 5% of hard-to-value positions to gauge values.”

“During this summer’s credit crunch, more than 80% of investors in bonds tied to the mortgage market said they had trouble obtaining price quotes from their bond dealers, according to a survey of 251 institutional investors by Greenwich Associates.”

“Michael Vranos, a veteran mortgage-bond trader, recently told investors in his large hedge-fund company, Ellington Management Group, that he was suspending investor redemptions at the end of September because he couldn’t figure out values for some of the fund’s mortgage-related investments.”

“‘There is no way to determine [values] that would be simultaneously fair both to investors redeeming from these funds and to investors remaining in the funds,’ he wrote in a Sept. 30 letter.”

“J.P. Morgan Chase & Co. analyst Kedran Panageas estimates that 29% of lower-quality ‘collateralized debt obligations’ will eventually lose all of their value due to the recent mortgage shakeout.”

“In the case of quality CDOs, she estimated, 12% will be reduced to zero. The lost value, she says, represents roughly $85 billion of the $475 billion of such securities outstanding. So far, she believes investors have recognized only a fraction of those losses.”

“Mr. Niblo managed a portfolio of about $1 billion in CDOs and mortgage-backed securities. By February, rising mortgage defaults by homeowners with poor credit were taking a toll on the mortgage-backed market.”

“Mr. Niblo sought prices from more than a dozen Wall Street dealers, and in April marked down the portfolio of subprime mortgages by about $20 million, according to the traders with knowledge of the situation.”

“The mortgage-backed market continued to deteriorate. Again, Mr. Niblo sought prices from dealers and marked his portfolio down — this time by $75 million, the traders say.”

“Ramesh Chari, another UBS manager…asked Mr. Niblo to explain his decision. In response, Mr. Niblo asked how UBS could value the securities at a higher level ‘if we can’t sell them at these prices?’ according to traders.”

“In June, Mr. Niblo was put on administrative leave as UBS sorted out the losses and valuation issues at Dillon Read. Mr. Niblo had priced many of the mortgage-backed securities in the range of 50 to 80 cents on the dollar, while UBS valued similar securities in the 80s, the traders say.”

“Last week, when UBS announced its write-down, CEO Marcel Rohner said the firm had done the best it could. ‘We feel that we have applied a prudent valuation’ that ‘reflects the current expectation of what’s going to happen.’”

“Still, Mr. Rohner himself highlighted the bigger issue clouding the financial markets. The trouble, he said, arose because UBS had to mark a price on mortgage-related securities ‘where there is no market price, where there is no trading.’”




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132 Comments »

Comment by Ben Jones
2007-10-12 10:02:17

‘Ambac Financial Group said that it expects an unrealized loss of $743 million from marking its credit derivatives portfolio to market at the end of September.’

Another business day, many more housing bubble billions gone. No bailout. No helicopters.

Comment by RJT
2007-10-12 10:10:32

Ben,

I’m beginning to see your point here. The future liquidity injections (via world central banks lowering rates, not just the Fed), will not re-inflate housing, but will be diverted to the next bubble. Whoever bets correctly on the next bubble at this stage wins.

Comment by Ben Jones
2007-10-12 10:15:20

On my Money and Metals site, I posted over and over communicationsfrom the G8 and Bank of International Settlements meetings. They’ve know for years that there was too much liquidity and stated repeatedly and in agreement that they must drain the swamp. That is what we are seeing, IMO.

Comment by NYCityBoy
2007-10-12 11:01:41

The IMF’s latest statements leave no gray area on that subject. They think China should stop lending to the U.S. and the U.S. should stop borrowing. But it will be a painful day when that stupidity ends.

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Comment by combotechie
2007-10-12 11:41:39

Pain is good. Pain reminds one to never again willingly lay their hand on a hot stove.

 
 
Comment by Blano
2007-10-12 11:50:35

I went to check your M&M site and it looks like you’ve sort of left that go as of July, unless I’m seeing wrong. Is it still a place to get started learning and keep up with current events??

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Comment by packman
2007-10-12 10:25:34

Plastics!!!! The wave of the future.

At least that’s my granpappy said. He was right - but it’s probably a bit late to get in on the ground floor.

Seriously though - I was thinking about this a lot this morning - trying to figure out what might be the next big bubble. The most likely candidate IMO is energy, even though it’s already inflated to a great extent. I think it totally depends on what happens in the ‘08 election though. If we get a Dem in office they’ll most likely they’ll:
- Pull out of Iraq
- Squelch drilling in ANWR
- Emphasize alternative (including Nuclear) energies

As a result *all* energy prices will go up - oil because of instability in the middle east (you know that if we pull out Iran’s going to make a move) and no increase in domestic output, and other energy sources due to the shifting emphasis on alternatives.

However I can’t bring myself to invest in the oil companies. I just can’t. So I relegated myself to solar, back during Katrina actually with ESLR and SPIR. I did a cursory search for other alternative energy companies but didn’t find much public. BP is big into alternative, but too tied to oil. Anyone who has other suggestions would be good.

Comment by Drowning Pool
2007-10-12 10:50:09

“However I can’t bring myself to invest in the oil companies. I just can’t. So I relegated myself to solar, back during Katrina actually with ESLR and SPIR. I did a cursory search for other alternative energy companies but didn’t find much public. BP is big into alternative, but too tied to oil. Anyone who has other suggestions would be good.”

Pack, we have a position in New Alternatives Fund, NALFX. Mostly small, European alternative energy companies.

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Comment by Ponzio House
2007-10-12 11:18:12

Beanie Babies — the next bubble is Beanie Babies. Oh wait! That’s right, we all ready had a Beanie Baby bubble.

Idiots! I’m engulfed by idiots!

 
Comment by pismo clam
2007-10-12 11:50:24

Smaller domestic oil company, Berry Petroleum, BRY, on fire. All supplys on shore, in USA. Headquarters in Kern County, near algore’s Elk Hills Occidental holdings. Can’t miss. For those who don’t want to pay the mullahs.

 
 
Comment by downpuppy
2007-10-12 11:24:25

I went all in on oil & gas companies in 2000. Its worked out pretty well. (x5, but I didn’t have that much to start with)

Oil isn’t about to become abundant again, even if the next president brings peace in Iraq & Nigeria, raises CAFE standards, ends the SUV tax break, closes the 6000lb depreication loophole, cuts the speed limit, beefs up Amtrak & does all the other obvious stuff.

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Comment by LA-Architect
2007-10-12 11:39:14

I’m in agreement with you on Solar energy for the future. There needs to be a big government initiative to harness this abundant energy. Big Oil needs to not be given all of those generous tax breaks. Let this money fund alternative fuels. The US is already behind the ball compared to European countries, so it had better hurry up and catch up.

Close to eight years of going backwards has cost us dearly.

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Comment by aladinsane
2007-10-12 12:51:48

When I was a lad…

It might take years for an Italian to get a phone, in house.

The situation never improved until cell phones came along.

Things Change

 
 
Comment by jerry from richardson
2007-10-12 23:08:17

Quest Oilsands and Gulport (BQI & GPOR)

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Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-12 10:35:07

Black gold? (That $100/bl price that some analyst boldly forecast back in 2005 gets closer to plausible by the day…)

FUTURES MOVERS
Crude touches high above $84 level, then slips
Unexpected U.S. crude supply fall provides support; analyst sees more gains
By Myra P. Saefong & Lisa Twaronite, MarketWatch
Last Update: 1:04 PM ET Oct 12, 2007

SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) — Crude-oil futures continued to climb Friday, briefly trading above the $84-a-barrel level for the first time, finding support from the first decline in U.S. crude supplies in three weeks.

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/crude-oil-futures-touch-high-above/story.aspx?guid=%7B70AF2A24%2D4FDE%2D4274%2DA34D%2D292C211D14D8%7D

 
Comment by Jas Jain
2007-10-12 10:38:32


The next bubble is in Commodities, but its $ value is so much smaller than the RE and the scam markets. Though, one can say that there are emerging markets scam bubbles. The latter are sure sign of the NASTYQ! Bubble during 1998-2000.

It is true that most of the liquidity has gone to asset bubbles of one kind or another.

Jas

Comment by Hoz
2007-10-12 13:56:42

No inflation, all contained.
The next bubble - due to stressed out home owners
* A gram of pure cocaine in the United States cost an average of $118.70 in the second quarter, up 24% from the $95.89 reported in the first quarter.
* National Forensic Laboratory Information System (NFLIS) data from over 6,000 cocaine seizures from January-June 2007, showed that the drug’s purity also fell from 56- 53%.
* Authorities in 37 US cities have reported decreased cocaine availability.
source Oxford Analytica

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Comment by oxide
2007-10-12 10:49:46

The next bubble will be water. Desalination, greywater treatment, water rights lawyers, etc.

Possibly food too. The Powers that Be are trying to globalize food to China and Brazil, but I don’t know if that’s going to catch on.

Comment by Drowning Pool
2007-10-12 10:54:23

“The next bubble will be water. Desalination, greywater treatment, water rights lawyers, etc. ”

One play on that is POWERSHARES ETF TRUST WATER RESOURCE (PHO: AMEX). It’s on a tear right now, so if you think it’s a good long-term play, start off with a gain so you can ride out the dips if there’s some mayhem in the markets.

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Comment by flatffplan
2007-10-12 11:26:08

claymore has a sleeper water etf
I won both

 
Comment by aladinsane
2007-10-12 11:34:07

Financially astute ones…

Why not just move to where there is enough water, instead of “investing” in water?

 
Comment by AZ-IT
2007-10-12 13:53:38

And that would be…??????
Maybe Greenland - have you followed the water crisis that is affecting the whole world? Areas are constantly having drought issues, and between agriculture and drinking there are many areas having huge debates over balancing the two. Yet, we have to grow food to eat, so you can’t just kill the agriculture usage to support cities that are growing far too large for the local resources.
And don’t kid yourself about ground water – almost every area is wiping that out far faster than the aquifers can replenish themselves.

 
 
Comment by Devildog
2007-10-12 10:57:13

I for one will certainly not put mine and my family’s health in the hands of the Chinese by consuming the “food”. The time is rapidly approaching where it will be neccessary to grow your own.

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Comment by oxide
2007-10-12 12:30:08

That’s why I think food could be a bubble. If the government lets go of the ag subsidies (eventually), and if there is a water crisis, and if American protectionism does not allow food prices to fall via cheap labor and water in Asia, then food is going to get very expensive very fast. And not because of inflation.

I’m interested in seeing what happens when COOL kicks in a year from now. COOL is “country-of-origin” labeling. Wait until the general public sees how much stuff is South American and Asian. And not just fresh produce.

 
 
 
Comment by shuzilla
2007-10-12 11:17:18

Art and collectibles. These are emotional purchases that are seen as hedges and are at record levels. Also are open to manipulation.

Comment by combotechie
2007-10-12 11:50:04

“Art and collectables.”

I’m picking up vibes that marketers are pushing mechanical (as opposed to quartz) watches as collectables. The WSJ had about nine full page ads last week hyping watches.

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Comment by txchick57
2007-10-12 13:32:38

I just bought a mechanical watch (Krieger). How funny.

 
Comment by travanx
2007-10-12 22:42:01

I bought a breitling automatic 4 years ago. Its known enough to let me look at whatever watch I want at a nice watch store, but not known enough to have someone look at it and think its a rolex or tag.

I can’t imagine watches going up in value at all. They all seem to be heavily discounted after being used.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-12 11:56:55

“… and are at record levels.”

Er, wouldn’t that qualify art and collectibles as part of the last bubble? It would be fun to know how much of the purchases were funded through liberated home equity…

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Comment by MrBubble
2007-10-12 12:59:56

If there are water and/or food bubbles and the attendant rise in prices for either, then I predict a bubble in concertina wire, moats, trebuchets, lead, the A-Team, tasers, napalm, black powder, Hessians, water filters and MREs.

Juuuust kidding! (I just watched the Rome episode when the grain supply gets cut off) Relax, it’s the weekend.

MrBubble

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by adopt-a-landlord
2007-10-12 10:07:47

“Another business day, many more housing bubble billions gone. No bailout…”

There’s no better bailer than a scared man with a bucket. Unfortunately, the fear has yet to set in.

Comment by Ben Jones
2007-10-12 10:11:51

Keep up the hand wringing while I document the collapse of the HB.

Comment by In Colorado
2007-10-12 10:30:34

Who just had their debt downgraded to junk level. Couldn’t have happened to a more deserving bunch!

Comment by Ben Jones
2007-10-12 10:39:16

I agree. The public homebuilders played a nasty role in the run-up and now we see some poetic justice.

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Comment by aladinsane
2007-10-12 10:50:22

Justice will have to catch up to the unjust, urgently.

 
 
 
 
Comment by oxide
2007-10-12 11:26:08

No helicopter drops today, Ben, I understand. But weren’t all those liquidity injections in August temporary loans? The beast may be satisfied now, but what happens when all those loans become due? FB’s still aren’t paying their mortgages, banks still won’t be able to pay the liquidity back. What then?

Maybe adopt-a-landlord is calling a bubble-pop on that temp liquidity, the same way Ben called the bubble-pop on housing itself.

Comment by vozworth
2007-10-12 12:18:24

WYOMISSING, Pa., Oct. 12 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ — Sovereign Bank today announced its participation in the Pennsylvania Housing Finance Agency’s (PHFA) Refinance to an Affordable Loan (REAL) program. The goal of the program is to help homeowners who are struggling with an adjustable rate mortgage, an interest only loan, or other exotic mortgage product.
***********************************************
let the attack on the arms begin. Good thing these low interest rate loans are only available to people earing 120k or less..

 
Comment by MrBubble
2007-10-12 13:07:25

Stupid question, but to whom are those loans due? These are the loans to the HBs through the discount window or direct liquidity injections into “the system”? I was trying to explain it all yesterday to a friend who thought that it was still China to whom we owed these new monies. I explained that they had bought our CDOs, but then I ran out of knowledge and stepped in a pile of stupid. I guess that I don’t understand the diff. b/w FFR, discount window rates, liquidity injections, CDOs, printing presses, etc.

Anybody have a link that would learn me good in a hurry?

MrBubble

Comment by AZ-IT
2007-10-12 14:10:44

Safehaven.com had an article a few weeks back that I thought did really well explaining t-bonds, t-bills, reserve notes and that whole aspect of the banking system. They got into the need to collateralize and why “b-52 Ben” (helicopters don’t lift enough for this job…) can’t just do *that* part of it (thus the Fed doesn’t control nearly as much in the currency value as people think, and there may be quite a disconnect between “electric” dollars – what Ben can toss out so fast, and real dollars – which require collateralizing prior to issuance… very scary stuff on the horizon – you should take the time to learn more about it). I’m on the laptop in L.A. today, so I don’t have the link handy (it’s on the home system). Look around for the articles on inflation\deflation together (different then “stagflation”). Should be a couple\3 weeks ago I think…
Hate Cali (who would want to live here? What a pit!) & hate this laptop, but hope that helps.

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Comment by MrBubble
2007-10-12 15:45:08

Thanks much! I moved to SF for work and it’s not so bad. I’ve lived in worse places. Anniston, AL anyone?

Hmm. I thought that infl and defl = stagflation. Must learn…

 
Comment by travanx
2007-10-12 22:48:50

LA is just a big dump. You don’t think this is a nice place to live? Its kind of like living in a violent version of Mexico with no real rules or laws, but somehow the rest are busy shopping all day long. Instead of saying I am keeping my eye on buying a place to see when prices start to make sense, I finally have been telling people that I just plain can’t afford anything here. I then mention how if I can never afford whats the point of even fooling myself to believe otherwise. Funny how no one I have told this to has argued with me.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by mrktMaven FL
2007-10-12 10:10:11

“‘There is no way to determine [values] that would be simultaneously fair both to investors redeeming from these funds and to investors remaining in the funds,’ he wrote in a Sept. 30 letter.”

Reality is brutally difficult for some of these guys to accept. It’s over.

Comment by Michael Fink
2007-10-12 10:15:20

Oh yes there is a way to determine the value. Sell it..

Same stupid crap coming out of all these investment houses as from all the FB that I talk to looking for homes. “We just can’t value the house” or “we can’t get a fair price”. BS! Sell the house/stock/bond/MBS and you will determine the market price. It’s like these people can’t fathom what “market price” really means!

And yes, some of these tranches of bonds are truly worth 0, nothing, nada.. And some of these homes (especially condos) might only be worth 20% of the high prices.. Does not matter; that’s what the market says what the price is, that’s what it is.

So stupid.

Comment by Blano
2007-10-12 10:23:21

Exactly….sell, and there’s your mark to market and the amount you have to write down. They just don’t want to accept that number as the new reality.

Comment by turnoutthelights
2007-10-12 10:27:04

Like underwater homeowners, if you can’t take the loss, don’t (or can’t) sell.

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Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-12 10:25:34

It’s Dutch auction time for bagholders of devalued assets.

Dutch Auction

An auction where the price on an item is lowered until it gets its first bid, and then the item is sold at that price.

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/dutchauction.asp

Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-12 10:26:22

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Comment by Chip
2007-10-12 11:00:32

Dutch auction is exactly how we sold our house, pre-peak. Got $25K less than we hoped and waay more than we would today.

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Comment by are they crazy
2007-10-12 10:35:51

Exactly - nothing has more than paper value (including the $?) until someone hands over cash for it. The value of your real estate is the price someone is willing to pay on the day you want to sell it. Everything else is really smoke and mirrors IMHO.

 
Comment by Rental Watch
2007-10-12 13:28:06

That’s the next leg down (on both values as well as psychologically).

Today, the only way to get a true market value is at a foreclosure auction. HOWEVER, everyone views those sales as “non-market” for some reason–they’re not included in comps, etc.

Just wait until the investor that buys the “$400,000 Home” for $275k directly from a bank, and sells it on the open market for a profit at $325k. Guess what? The market has now been set. Your $400k home is now worth $325k. I challenge you to refinance that loan when you need to…

You’re either a) not going to move for the foreseeable future, b) going to default when your ARM adjusts, c) come up with serious cash to move or refinance, or d) sell for the market price and just accept that the $75k of equity that you thought was there wasn’t and you’ll need to belt tighten elsewhere to make up the difference for the future.

Not everyone can choose to NOT sell right now.

 
 
 
Comment by txchick57
2007-10-12 10:10:16

Didn’t I read recently how UBS was one of the “winners” of the subprime fiasco in that they lost less, blah blah blah. Now we know how they did this majic trick. Damn! I just marked up all my JDSU to $55 a share. Too bad I can’t get that for it

Comment by turnoutthelights
2007-10-12 10:25:02

Geez! And the Fed prints money? No shame, all profits, all the time.

 
Comment by Drowning Pool
2007-10-12 11:00:55

“Damn! I just marked up all my JDSU to $55 a share. Too bad I can’t get that for it ”

Not so fast TX, the interest-only adjustable-rate margin account is coming…

 
 
Comment by Michael Fink
2007-10-12 10:11:18

Seems to me that in adding up all the losses from TODAY that were realized, a few billion dollars of “wealth” was vaporized today.

Move along, nothing to see here.

Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-12 10:22:52

As long as only a few billion dollars a day are vaporized, there will be no panic.

Comment by Michael Fink
2007-10-12 10:59:35

Do you realize how insane that sounds?

I’m not saying your wrong, in fact, I agree, as long as we don’t see 50-100B dollar days, we probably will avoid an all out panic.

But a few billion a day up the smokestack!! :) That’s just a mind boggling number!

Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-12 12:00:18

“…as long as we don’t see 50-100B dollar days, we probably will avoid an all out panic…”

Or 20% down on the headline stock market indexes (even over a period of months would be bad on this measure of panic)…

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Comment by Jas Jain
2007-10-12 10:15:44


‘They call it ‘marking to market,’ but it’s really marking to myth.’

“Houses [New and old] Are Not Being Marked to Market”

To clear the inventory. This was the comment from an economist on CNBC.

So it is not just the banksters and financiers who are not marking their “inventory” of financial products to the market. Deception always has a motive behind it.

Jas

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-12 10:16:39

“These days, after a decade of frantic growth in mortgage-backed securities and other complex investments traded off exchanges, that clarity is gone. Large parts of American financial markets have become a hall of mirrors.”

The silver lining: The stock market always goes up, in the long run.

 
Comment by aladinsane
2007-10-12 10:20:17

The wise guys slipped on financial cement shoes and dived right in…

splaTT!

“Centex Corp., the fourth-largest U.S. homebuilder, said it will have about $1 billion in expenses to write down property as the U.S. housing slump worsens. The charge, the second-largest announced by a builder in the past quarter, comes as Centex’s sales fell 13 percent in the fiscal second quarter and compares with $268.4 million in net income the company reported in the last fiscal year.”

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-12 10:20:53

“‘There is no way to determine [values] that would be simultaneously fair both to investors redeeming from these funds and to investors remaining in the funds,’ he wrote in a Sept. 30 letter.”

Reasonable knowledge is hard to come by given Wall Street’s fog of opacity.

Fair Market Value

The price that a given property or asset would fetch in the marketplace, subject to the following conditions:

1. Prospective buyers and sellers are reasonably knowledgeable about the asset; they are behaving in their own best interests and are free of undue pressure to trade.

2. A reasonable time period is given for the transaction to be completed.

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/fairmarketvalue.asp

Comment by Chip
2007-10-12 11:05:58

I think that art auctions are interesting displays of marking to market, particularly when one work goes for an amount that is exceptionally high (or low) relative to pre-auction estimates. In that case, it takes just one buyer to set the market. Fortunately for all of these FBs, it takes two or three. Bet that makes ‘em feel all warm and fuzzy.

 
 
Comment by mrktMaven FL
2007-10-12 10:30:33

“The [homebuilder] downgrades affect about $9.4 billion of debt and $3.25 billion of commercial paper authorizations, Moody’s said.”

Uh, oh!

Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-12 10:32:02

‘Tis a mere flesh wound. But beware the risk of death by 1000 cuts.

Comment by Drowning Pool
2007-10-12 11:05:17

“‘Tis a mere flesh wound. But beware the risk of death by 1000 cuts.”

If not 1000, at least a few hundred anyway. Here’s another $13 billion in bad debt, the banks have written off about $25B, that leaves around $962B. Who’s next? Step right up, get your worthless paper marked to myth….

 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-12 10:30:40

Snigger…

BULLETIN: BEA SYSTEMS REJECTS ORACLE OFFER AS TOO LOW

Techs shine on Oracle offer

Stocks turn higher in early trading with a boost from Oracle’s bid for BEA and good news in retail sales and on the inflation front.

http://www.marketwatch.com/

Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-12 10:55:26

If it was hope that this deal which will be consummated which lifted all headline U.S. stock market indexes earlier today, then I guess we should expect a crash any minute now?

October 12, 2007 1:53 P.M.ET
BULLETIN
BEA to Oracle: Much too low

 
 
Comment by NeilT
2007-10-12 10:34:35

“‘The housing market continues to be extremely difficult,’ CEO Timothy Eller said today in a statement. ‘These adjustments reflect the market’s further deterioration over the quarter and the significant effects of the mortgage- market disruptions.’”

I am a bit puzzled by this kind argument that essentially says that if mortgages were readily available housing market would have continued to soar. I am sure that mortgages are readily available for those who are capable of paying back. I think that only fraudulent loans to deadbeats would keep the housing market alive. Is that what Mr Eller et al are asking for?

Comment by Drowning Pool
2007-10-12 11:08:21

” I think that only fraudulent loans to deadbeats would keep the housing market alive. Is that what Mr Eller et al are asking for? ”

Neil, your question is not rhetorical as you think. As far as the HBs are concerned, they do not care where the money comes from or the social/economic repercussions. He needs to show a positive number at the bottom of the income statement or he will have to take his golden parachute go plunder another company.

Comment by travanx
2007-10-12 23:00:44

plunder another company? Who would want to hire some of these truly horrible at their jobs people? This is like hiring all those useless dotcom people. They were given lots of money and a fake market and yet they still screwed up all the free money and market. That just seems unreal to me. And only truly awful managers could pull off losing in the end before the end even begins.

 
 
Comment by flatffplan
2007-10-12 11:31:32

started down in 05 when there was plenty of free money

 
Comment by Rental Watch
2007-10-12 13:33:23

Lenders changed their underwriting, so there are scapegoats.

No one will lend anyone $1=liquidity crisis
No one will lend someone 5x their income with $0 down=return to lending sanity.

 
 
Comment by amy repo girl
2007-10-12 10:44:43

Congratulate President Gore on winning the nobel prize. Again history is full of treachery. Of the 2000 presidential election, one went on to accolade went on to infamy.

nothing to do with hb, what the h*ll.

Comment by amy repo girl
2007-10-12 10:11:50

Correction

Of the 2000 presidential election, one went on to accolade and one went on to infamy.

Comment by Blano
2007-10-12 10:32:57

One is a fundamentally decent man, and Gore should be b*tch slapped.

 
Comment by In Colorado
2007-10-12 10:33:19

Plus he got to do a bunch of cameos on Futurama.

 
Comment by Blano
2007-10-12 10:39:16

One is a fundamentally decent man, and Gore should be b**ch slapped.

Comment by spike66
2007-10-12 10:45:10

“One is a fundamentally decent man”

Bwahahahahaha….

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Comment by amy repo girl
2007-10-12 10:46:18

Just like GW, you must talk to god regularly.

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Comment by Blano
2007-10-12 11:10:43

You act like that’s a bad thing.

 
Comment by amy repo girl
2007-10-12 11:20:07

Blano, if you talk to god, like GW, you belong in the mental asylum or in detention camp with the muslim extremists.

 
Comment by Blano
2007-10-12 11:24:03

It’s unfortunate you feel that way. I do hope you change your mind at some point. Talking with Him who knows more about you than you do can never be a bad thing.

 
Comment by oxide
2007-10-12 11:30:51

Okay okay, no food fights on the housing blog, please?

Bush’s problem isn’t talking to God, it was listening to Cheney (and other assorted characters.)

 
Comment by NYCityBoy
2007-10-12 11:32:10

They are both idiots. Don’t be zealots and try to convince yourself otherwise. They are both spoiled little rich brats that have never had to struggle in the world to get ahead. Standing up for either one at this point puts a strain on a person’s credibility.

 
Comment by phillygal
2007-10-12 11:52:26

Blano, if you talk to god, like GW, you belong in the mental asylum or in detention camp with the muslim extremists.

ad hominems are always fun on a Friday afternoon

 
Comment by DC in LBV
2007-10-12 11:54:25

NYCityBoy, you got that one dead right. We have evolved from a democracy/republic back into a European monarchy/fuedal system where the rich “royalty” just have to make a payment to keep their thrones every few years.

 
Comment by amy repo girl
2007-10-12 12:41:23

“It’s unfortunate you feel that way. I do hope you change your mind at some point. Talking with Him who knows more about you than you do can never be a bad thing.”

Blano, i used to think like you then i graduated fifth grade.

 
Comment by MrBubble
2007-10-12 13:23:31

“Talking with Him who knows more about you than you do can never be a bad thing.”

More about me than I do? Hey, who is this “God” character anyway and why is He working for GW and His domestic spying program? And what’s with the caps on the pronouns?

MrBubble

 
Comment by phillygal
2007-10-12 14:25:08

Blano is taking flak for expressing a belief in his faith in a higher power.

I don’t see any posts demeaning atheists or lack of belief in a higher power.

Where’s all the tolerance from the love children?

 
Comment by AZ-IT
2007-10-12 14:39:30

repo girl,
Mormons speak directly to God all the time – such is part of their religion & why there are issues between them and the “mainstream” Christian churches (ignorance is not just a HB’ers issue…), Islamists’ believe God is quite as per Judao\Christian teaching.
We should all avoid speaking with authority on things we show ourselves to be ignorant about the moment we open out mouth.
Anyone who believes either party anymore is delusional, they all sold out quite a few elections ago. They are just different sides of the same coin anymore.
NYCityBoy – you get an “A”!

 
Comment by MrBubble
2007-10-12 16:05:26

Philly — Please note that I’m not giving Blano flak. I really try hard not to make arguments “against the man”, especially on a Friday!

I guess my point was that if everybody put his/her cards on the table and discussed who this “god character” is, we’d see that nobody has a clear view of him/her/it. It’s like asking somebody what “love” is. So hard to define.

Now, the lack of a consistent definition of a monotheistic deity doesn’t prove or disprove anything (insoluble question anyway) of course. It just underscores that nobody knows what the heck he or she is really discussing when talking about how GWB “talks to god” and that people talking about god probably aren’t even talking about the same thing. Is god answering him? Can he see god in his mind? Does god hate/love/feel neutral about non-Christians, etc.?

And if the folks on the “god squad” realize that not everybody is on the same program and that it’s OK to be a little different without being a wacko, that’s cool. I think that Amy Repo Girl went a too far, but that’s like, her opinion, man. I am a wacko, but that’s beside the point.

It’s difficult for us heathens/rationalists to understand that GWB et al. receive succor from something that can’t be defined or seen (i.e. something that must believed in through faith rather than discerned through reason), probably in the same way that believers are nonplussed by our ability to live without a god.

Check it: http://youtube.com/watch?v=OM1hJ_mA2nA

And with that, it’s Miller time.

 
 
Comment by sweeny texas
2007-10-12 10:57:58

Surely, Blano, you jest… And it seems like a bunch of people I run into don’t like Al. What did Al ever do to deserve such disrespect?

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Comment by zee_in_phx
2007-10-12 11:09:39

Follow the money…. look into Al’s connection to the green funds he’s been touting.

first they had to devalue the ‘medal of honor’ now the ‘peace prize’, soon you’ll be finding these on ebay stamped w/ ‘made in china’

 
Comment by Blano
2007-10-12 11:24:53

Tried to respond, but it keeps being eaten. Sorry.

 
Comment by Frank
2007-10-12 12:28:39

Yeah, I don’t understand why people don’t like Al either. I mean, after he went to the trouble of inventing the internet…

 
Comment by Blano
2007-10-12 12:34:34

The Peace Prize became worthless the day Jimmy Carter won it.

 
Comment by carl from OC
2007-10-12 13:18:32

Blano,

The Peace Prize became worthless when Henry Kissinger won it.

 
Comment by aladinsane
2007-10-12 15:54:36

Instead of demeaning people…

Bring out your Heroes~

Richard Feynman is a Nobel prize winner I admire.

He proved that genius and fun weren’t mutually exclusive of one another…

 
Comment by spike66
2007-10-12 16:11:08

Yassar Arafat also won the Peace Prize.
George Bush has an MBA from Harvard.
One was a terrorist, and other is dumber than a box of rocks. Priceless.

 
 
 
Comment by Ponzio House
2007-10-12 11:49:07

If I were a folk singer I’d work this into a piece somewhere.

 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2007-10-12 10:14:43

They say that one man can’t make a difference?

Comment by NeilT
2007-10-12 10:35:47

Tell that to Mahatma Gandhi…

Comment by NeilT
2007-10-12 10:37:10

Or, Ben Jones who single-handedly deflated the HBubble :lol:

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Comment by zee_in_phx
2007-10-12 11:11:39

hear hear !!

 
 
Comment by NYCityBoy
2007-10-12 11:33:54

Yes, Gandhi opened up the possibility for millions of innocent Indians to be slaughtered.

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Comment by aladinsane
2007-10-12 11:35:54

“he wouldn’t take a risk in an iron lung”

An old Aussie gent told me that one, way back when…

 
Comment by luvs_footie
2007-10-12 12:23:03

aladinsane ……..

Being an Aussie, that saying goes like this……..

“He wouldn’t work in an iron lung”

 
Comment by Drowning Pool
2007-10-12 12:24:08

“Yes, Gandhi opened up the possibility for millions of innocent Indians to be slaughtered. ”

Gandhi leveraged the power of non-cooperation (which he called nonviolence) to overthrow the then pre-eminent colonial empire. The violence was either perpetrated by the British (salt march, bodwalla massacre) or as a result of pre-existing tensions which the British instigated (partition).

I think Gandhiji’s lesson is particularly relevant to this blog. In effect, we are all concerned about the same thing: manipulation of the financial and asset markets by a handful of very powerful people. When it comes down to it, we are individually powerless to change things: what most of us are doing is waiting for the gyrations of the manipulated markets to swing our way.

The only way to truly restore normalcy to the markets would be non-participation: if the manipulators were convinced that they were unable to loot the markets because we wouldn’t play along, things could change.

 
Comment by travanx
2007-10-12 23:08:46

in response to drowning pool. i don’t think that individuals are completely powerless. its sad to say, but it seems like a very small group of people could or did do the 9/11 attack. that sure made a huge change in most of the world.

on a hbb.com note, i keep thinking that some creative people came up with the mortgage market lately. And now I keep wondering how much more creative it would be to take it another step forward with some other out there way of doing mortgages, which could actually let the crazy market continue. I am beginning to think almost anything is possible after reading all of the financial news stories.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by are they crazy
2007-10-12 10:48:24

In a way it does relate to the housing industry and possibly the next bubble. All the green building and LEEDS certifying, tax credits for energy improvements from appliances and HVAC, habitat plans and environmental surveys prior to developing land, etc. Perhaps a weekend subject?

 
Comment by aladinsane
2007-10-12 10:57:09

“‘The level of impairments was more than expected,’ said Morgan Stanley analyst Robert Stevenson regarding Centex’s announcement. ‘This news reaffirms our belief that book value is heading even lower as housing pricing declines escalate,’ he wrote.”

Keep your fears to yourself but share your courage with others…

Robert Louis Stevenson

 
Comment by mrktMaven FL
2007-10-12 10:57:09

Think. Don’t be sheep.

Comment by Michael Fink
2007-10-12 11:07:59

That would solve so many problems in this world that I almost can’t even begin to contemplate it!

If only people would think for themselves. Is it really that much better to be lead around by those of us who will do the thinking for you? Don’t you realize that you are the sheep of the masses?

It’s sad, but I see it every single day in my current position. A sales rep from company XYZ will tell the customer that they can do ZYZ if they buy product ZZZ. The problem is that you CAN’T DO THAT, often because it volilates basic (undeniable) laws (typically the speed of light; I work in IT and much it the computer world is governed by SOL (speed of light) issues).

Even when confronted with the facts; the hard, indisputable facts that something is impossible (unless the vendor in question developed a wormhole) the customer still cannot accept that the vendor (read, SALES REP) would lie to them..

Astounding. I have lost many sales simply because I was unwilling to tell the customer what they wanted to hear. Honestly, it’s not even because of morality issues, it’s just because I would never want to say something so STUPID!!

:)

 
Comment by Chip
2007-10-12 11:08:46

When the going gets tough, the tough go on vacation. That’s where I’m headed.

Comment by Drowning Pool
2007-10-12 11:19:03

“When the going gets tough, the tough go on vacation. That’s where I’m headed. ”

Have fun Chip. I should mention too that I am headed overseas next month, so I will revert to an occasional lurker. Nearest cyber cafe will be miles away. Bye civilization, I will miss HBB, the only true island of civilization in this jungle!

 
 
Comment by leosdad
2007-10-12 12:53:11

Time for I. Kant:
“Enlightenment is man’s emergence from self imposed immaturity (”Unmündigkeit”, translated here as the phrase “immaturity and dependence” can also be read as “nonage”) for which he himself was responsible. Immaturity and dependence are the inability to use one’s own intellect[1] without the direction of another. One is responsible for this immaturity and dependence, if its cause is not a lack of intelligence, but a lack of determination and courage to think without the direction of another. Sapere aude! Dare to know! is therefore the slogan of the Enlightenment.”

 
 
Comment by NeedHelp
2007-10-12 11:13:20

Hi all,

First post but I been reading the blogs for some time now. You all provide a wealth of information.

I’m in need of finding what my rights are and I hope someone can assist on this. I’m a rentor in Orange County, CA. We just got a Notice of Sale dating 10/31. I’m guessing my landlord went into foreclosure.

Is there any sites I can get info on what my rights are?
If we get a eviction notice, does that go against my credit?
I’ve been reading we have 30 days or 60 days (if lived longer then 1 year) to vacate?
Who do we pay rent to?
We would most likely need to sue to get our deposit back?

Please help!!

Comment by NeilT
2007-10-12 12:57:25

Don’t panic. Renters do not need to panic, it is the homeowners/sellers who should.
Eviction doesn’t go against your credit, as far as I know.

Comment by Rental Watch
2007-10-12 15:41:41

In fact, in CA I think that you as a renter have more rights than in other states. If you have a signed lease, you may have a right to continue to occupy the house, even if it comes under new ownership (if a bank forecloses on a commercial building, do the tenants need to leave if they have a signed and valid lease?). Presumably, the bank or new owner would have the right to your rent check but if they want to sell the asset now, they may want to pay YOU to get out.

I would at a minimum contact the bank regarding transfer of ownership, who rent should be paid to, etc. It would be a bad day for you to send November rent to your old landlord only for the bank (or other new owner) to come knocking at your door for the money.

The deposit question is a good one. In commercial property, there are usually offsets in purchase price to account for security deposits (so the new owner needs to pay it to the vacating tenant), but I’m not sure how it would work in your case.

Comment by pismo clam
2007-10-12 17:42:44

Re: deposit, you are now a Fd’renter. If the owner takes off and is out of state or you can’t find him to sue in small claims you’re Fd. Plus he’s probably unsueable, ie, no assets or job to lien. The bank can give you a notice to vacate and you had better move ’cause the next knock on the door is the sherriff. Sorry for the bad news.Maybe the bank will let you stay if you keep up the property, show for sale, and pay them something.

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Comment by Ouro Verde
2007-10-12 14:32:28

“We would most likely need to sue to get our deposit back?”

Yes!

Comment by We Rent!
2007-10-12 20:01:31

Take it out of your next rent check.

 
 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2007-10-12 11:16:26

“On July 11, Moody’s placed $5 billion worth of debt comprising 184 tranches from 91 CDOs on review for possible downgrade.”

Watch out for the tranche_las, they bite~

 
Comment by aladinsane
2007-10-12 11:21:37

Alt-A leaguers, whadya expect?

“Also, $26 million in ‘Alt-A’ mortgages with nontraditional terms were no longer performing. The bank tried to sell $883 million in such loans in January, but pulled them back to its own books when the mortgage crisis left it unable to get a good bid. It still has $1.3 billion in total Alt-A exposure, but is now only making loans it can sell.”

 
Comment by aladinsane
2007-10-12 11:28:28

Many of you adore the Swiss, but they are very much like us, with many bad financial habits.

“UBS later shut down the in-house hedge fund, and Mr. Niblo was let go in August. Last week, UBS announced a $3.7 billion write-down on $23 billion of securities with mortgage exposure, including securities from the shuttered fund.”

Comment by oxide
2007-10-12 11:41:39

And just like us, I guess they won’t swallow their pride and hire back poor Mr. Niblo.

Comment by pismo clam
2007-10-12 12:01:11

Oh where oh where has my Niblo gone, oh where oh where can he be? Does any one know, or care to know ?

Comment by NoVa Sideliner
2007-10-12 12:45:12

I’d care to know because I want to hear more of what he might want to say and what he might dig up in future!

But kind of like Danielle Dimartino (remember her sometimes-contrariness at the Dallas Morning Spews?), he’ll just end up somewhere else, doing good work for some quiet place where we plebes will never hear another word from him. :-(

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Comment by Hoz
2007-10-12 11:40:21

Az_lender said yesterday
“Likely true if one had to sell any existing notes. I have instructed my heirs not to sell any of my notes if I’m hit by a bus. None of the borrowers is in default (yet), so just sit still and collect the 9% or whatever. Glad I don’t need to mark to market or model or myth. Book value is unaltered if there is no default.”

today’s item

“In the case of quality CDOs, she estimated, 12% will be reduced to zero.”

That is why one learns to take losses (and let profits run).

 
Comment by aladinsane
2007-10-12 12:17:58

and then one day, poof!

It went up like Flash Paper

“Since the invention of the ticker tape 140 years ago, America has been able to boast of having the world’s most transparent financial markets.”

 
Comment by MrBubble
2007-10-12 16:08:42

Philly — Please note that I’m not giving Blano flak. I really try hard not to make arguments “against the man”, especially on a Friday!

I guess my point was that if everybody put his/her cards on the table and discussed who this “god character” is, we’d see that nobody has a clear view of him/her/it. It’s like asking somebody what “love” is. So hard to define.

Now, the lack of a consistent definition of a monotheistic deity doesn’t prove or disprove anything (insoluble question anyway) of course. It just underscores that nobody knows what the heck he or she is really discussing when talking about how GWB “talks to god” and that people talking about god probably aren’t even talking about the same thing. Is god answering him? Can he see god in his mind? Does god hate/love/feel neutral about non-Christians, etc.?

(cont.)

 
Comment by MrBubble
2007-10-12 16:10:04

And if the folks on the “god squad” realize that not everybody is on the same program and that it’s OK to be a little different without being a wacko, that’s cool. I think that Amy Repo Girl went a too far, but that’s like, her opinion, man. I am a wacko, but that’s beside the point.

It’s difficult for us heathens/rationalists to understand that GWB et al. receive succor from something that can’t be defined or seen (i.e. something that must believed in through faith rather than discerned through reason), probably in the same way that believers are nonplussed by our ability to live without a god.

Check it: http://youtube.com/watch?v=OM1hJ_mA2nA

And with that, it’s Miller time.

 
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