October 26, 2007

Weekend Topic Suggestions!

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Comment by david cee
2007-10-26 04:08:15

Wall Street and investors. They are in control of this whole mess and usually have the final say if a loan can be modified or not. Right now, investors refuse to modify these loans because they stand to lose more by working with a borrower or agreeing to some type of short sale.

This situation is complicated by the fact that these Mortgage Back Security (MBS) holders (INVESTORS) have insured against defaults, and the insurance payout on a default is a better result for the investor than accepting reduced returns. So the investor may actually be better off with a default as opposed to a mod.

In this circumstance, the investor can take the position that a mod goes against their best interests and threaten suit against the servicer if mods are undertaken.

Investors are screaming bloody murder about potential mods that will wreck their insurance payout.

When they bough these MBS’s they immediately insured them, so they will win either way. They stand to lose nothing. Unless the insurance companies don’t pay up.

Insured municipal bonds favored by retail investors are unlikely to lose their value even though financial guarantors face credit risks related to the faltering U.S. subprime mortgage sector.

The same companies that guarantee repayment of interest and principal if a city or county defaults have also been insuring mortgage bonds or collateralized debt obligations backed by home loans to consumers with subprime or poor credit.

Also lenders and servicers are not working with borrowers because this means they would have to report MASS losses to their investors and in turn cause panic in the market. Making their stock worthless. So, they stalling and making homeowners lives hell to protect what little value you they have left.

Hedge funds by nature do not need to disclose their losses or net asset value. There are HUGE losses that have not been disclosed, including cities, counties, pension funds, and bank money market funds that are NOT FDIC insured.

Our country and homeowners are being held hostage by these investors, Wall Street, that have got rich off of predatory loans and now they are STILL getting rich off of the foreclosure crisis and people losing homes. They win either way and we will lose unless we expose the real reasons for this mess.

Comment by M.B.A.
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-26 11:24:14

Life: Society - Living - The Power Of One - Business - Fit Nation - Ethics
How Dumb Is Your Bank?
Thursday, Oct. 25, 2007 By JUSTIN FOX

When times are good, it’s awfully hard to tell the knuckleheads from the geniuses in the financial-services business. That’s because bad loans and bad investments tend to look just as profitable as good ones–and sometimes even more so–until trouble hits.

Plenty of trouble has hit recently, and now the Fed seems to be redefining their job from that of maintaining a stable currency to that of keeping bad news hidden from view.

 
 
Comment by WT Economist
2007-10-26 05:21:36

(Investors are screaming bloody murder about potential mods that will wreck their insurance payout. When they bough these MBS’s they immediately insured them, so they will win either way. They stand to lose nothing. Unless the insurance companies don’t pay up.)

Now there is a wrinkle. But can the servicer be successfully sued for an action that limits the losses to its investment pool based on the conditions of a subsequent deal made by a bondholder?

Imagine I buy a property from you, then take out insurance against an unexpected defect in the property. When a defect is found, you decided to fix it with a less comprehensive fix than the insurance company could have been made to pay for to avoid being sued. Can I demand that you don’t fix it.

Legal mess.

 
Comment by Fresno Dude
2007-10-26 06:23:22

“Mortgage Back Security (MBS) holders (INVESTORS) have insured against defaults” So, how may insurance companies have invested their money in subprime real estate?

 
Comment by ozajh
2007-10-26 07:38:59

In a lot of cases it is also in the owners best interest to default rather than modify, from the purely financial perspective.

Comment by Housing Wizard
2007-10-26 08:58:57

But, sometimes Insurance Companies will not pay off if fraud was involved in the loan package ,(which I think includes loan application fraud ). I would think that the Insurance Companies are going to be checking these loan packages to see if they have to pay or not .

Comment by hd74man
2007-10-26 16:25:18

RE: loan application fraud

You can throw appraisal fraud into the bucket also.

Given the open, rampant and notorious nature of both fraud and corruption in the lending biz for the last 5 years any pay-out by an insurance company could take years.

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Comment by bluprint
2007-10-26 10:13:33

Our country and homeowners are being held hostage by these investors

Respectfully, but I am a homeowner, and I don’t feel as I am “held hostage”, primarily because I am in a housepayment I can easily afford.

To the extend that some people took a risk on a loan to get a bigger house, those people made their own bed. People take risks all the time. If you want to take a risk whether it’s skydiving or a neg am loan, then hey, it’s a free country right? But lets not pretend like the people for whom the risk caught up to them, and they may be getting forclosed on or whatever didn’t get their all by themselves. Sure, investors may have provided the airplane and parachute, but those homeowners willingly signed up in droves, strapped it on and jumped right outta that plane.

Just leave them all alone to work it out amongst themselves. For the rest of us, there is going to be a good deal on real estate for the next 10 or more years.

Comment by Housing Wizard
2007-10-26 12:39:34

If Lenders let unqualified buyers into housing ,than they screw up the concept of a stable housing market and property tax base that is based on a willing and “able’ buyer .The Wall Street money men changed the requirements and allowed liar low down loans and faulty appraisals . On a mass scale this will affect everyone from taxes to insurance to prices going up based on unqualified buyers with short term demand . It’s a form of fraud on the markets .
It’s ok for people to take risks ,but if they have to get a liar loan ,or the money men depart from sound lending standards ,it than will affect people who didn’t even take part in this risky business .It wasn’t fair to the society as a whole for the REIC to go haywire like they did ,and that includes greedy liar loan borrowers .

 
 
 
Comment by Lost in Nova
2007-10-26 04:14:36

I got screamed at yesterday. I’ve been low-balling REO properties in the Northern Virginia Area, Chantilly, Herndon, Centreville, and Manassas. Mixed Success, mostly in Manassas, I actually turned down some properties that met my 50% off 2005 criteria in Manassas, 4k sqft home on 1 acre for 271k, sold for 550+ in 05’, but the neighborhood was dicey.

So anyway, REO held by Citibank in Chantilly, 667k, called the agent, said if bank will talk 300’s I would be willing to LOOK at the property…….The profanity that followed truly impressed me in its non-repetitive color and creativity……….Interesting in this tirade was some quotes…

’The real-estate market is just fine, I have sold more than 12 properties for this bank this year alone, I just sold a Town home in Chantilly for 350k”

“Your crazy the market will be back by 2010.’

“Talking to you is like having a Cesarean Section”

“What…..? You’ll call be back in six months about this property…..F*C* YOU..CLICK!”

Lost in NoVa

Comment by M.B.A.
2007-10-26 04:18:18

lol
you gotta love “Talking to you is like having a Cesarean Section”

very original!

 
Comment by hobo in mass
2007-10-26 04:25:41

“What…..? You’ll call be back in six months about this property…..F*C* YOU..CLICK!”

At least they realized they’ll still have the property for sale in six months.

Comment by Mohammed The Boogeyman
2007-10-26 04:40:13

What is your strategy for compelling them to accept your offer (which sounds like you’re offering REAL market prices)? I think the only way to cut through the nattering BS from an RE agent on REO’s is to punch list every single defeciency and assign a price to each. In other words, have some back up justification for the disparity between the fantasy wish price and the more accurate price you’re offering. I work in the construction and contract management biz and the only way I’ll consider a change order proposal is when the GC or sub gives me an itemized breakdown of their change. Otherwise, I reject it.

Comment by We Rent!
2007-10-26 07:49:31

Price to rent ratio.

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Comment by aNYCdj
2007-10-26 04:46:11

You are Mean Lost…..

You just told him he can take 50% of what he expected to make in commisions right now …..or wait 6 months for some sucker to open door #2.

Comment by Mohammed The Boogeyman
2007-10-26 04:58:08

Lets give this real-turd a nervous breakdown…. Hey Lost…. share your info regarding REO and agent..LMAO….

Comment by Seattle Renter
2007-10-26 12:14:20

Real-turd. - that’s funny.

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Comment by Blano
2007-10-26 05:08:20

Thank you for an early morning chuckle.

Comment by Mohammed The Boogeyman
2007-10-26 05:14:53

boo!

 
 
Comment by Evil Capitalist
2007-10-26 05:25:44

Ha, I’m doing exactly the same thing in Philly.

 
Comment by polly
2007-10-26 05:27:14

Thanks for confirming that it is far too early to start making offers in the DC area. I’m in Montgomery county, and people tend to think we are even more “special” because the traffic is just a smidge less dire than NoVa.

Heard a report on NPR this morning that developers are trying to get approval to build a bunch of townhouses near the Metro in Takoma Park. People are trying to stop it. And this is just in the planning stages. They probably think they will finish just as demand comes back. I say they will be 5 years too early.

God, I hate townhouses. They are like evil mushrooms.

 
Comment by flatffplan
2007-10-26 05:56:06

what hood is that ??????
actually turned down some properties that met my 50% off 2005 criteria in Manassas, 4k sqft home on 1 acre for 271k, sold for 550+ in 05’, but the neighborhood was dicey.

 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2007-10-26 08:17:00

The agent’s professionalism is a thing to behold.

Comment by JP
2007-10-26 09:05:59

Very interesting abuse-your-potential-customers strategy.
Can’t wait for the book+seminar.

 
Comment by passthebubbly
2007-10-26 09:11:49

You know he’s hurting, because if business were better he wouldn’t have bothered insulting you. He’d just have said thanks but no thanks.

 
 
Comment by Kim
2007-10-26 08:31:09

Loved your story, LostinNOVA.

Not had anyone scream at me yet. Did have a seller hang up on his listing agent after he presented my offer. The place has been on the market 3 years BTW, and it still is.

Comment by Anon In DC
2007-10-26 19:53:13

Well you don’t expect the seller to give it away! LOL

 
 
Comment by Pondering the Mess
2007-10-26 09:37:25

Ah, yes… the NoVa and Baltimore-Washington corridor of Maryland is much like California; all the bad attitude, excess money with no brains, and grossly high cost of living. We don’t have wildfires, but we have no view, no mountains, etc.

Can’t wait for the Bubble to come crashing down around here!

 
Comment by Lost in Utah
2007-10-26 12:58:26

Thanks for putting my life in perspective. LOL - just got my a$$ chewed for asking for a “tall” latte in the local small-town espresso shop - “We don’t do Starbuck’s” the owner said very defiantly. “Starbucks does tall, we do large.”

The owner should be selling real estate, methinks. Same attitude. I’m the only person here, BTW. Similar attitudes, similar starvation (small Mormon town in Utah, they don’t drink much coffee)

 
Comment by hd74man
2007-10-26 16:28:33

RE: The profanity that followed truly impressed me in its non-repetitive color and creativity…

Nothing better than experiencing the mask fall off a Realtor so you can see the what real dirtbag POS’s lie underneath the “professional” veneer.

 
Comment by Anon In DC
2007-10-26 19:50:04

That’s pretty inexcusable. You ought to write to CEO and copy as many media outlets as possible. Also cc the agent who did the yelling.

 
 
Comment by Ben Jones
2007-10-26 04:16:31

Sorry, error. Not local market obs, but weekend topics.

 
Comment by Lost in Nova
2007-10-26 04:18:11

We could have a topic about unstable agents.

-lost in Nova :)

Comment by jim A
2007-10-26 05:09:15

Hey, it’s pretty stressful not knowing where the next beemer payment will come from.

 
 
Comment by M.B.A.
2007-10-26 04:20:02

txchick and I want a topic about the Felices that live in Dallas

 
Comment by Ben Jones
2007-10-26 04:26:03

BTW, txchic, here’s your cue, if you recall; about the ranch.

Comment by M.B.A.
2007-10-26 04:30:07

she must be makin’ bacon…

Comment by Ben Jones
2007-10-26 04:51:23

Hey  now…

 
 
Comment by palmetto
2007-10-26 05:09:33

OK, what’s this stuff about the ranch?

Comment by txchick57
2007-10-26 05:33:03

I’ve been considering the wise words of Peter Weiner last night ;)

I just don’t know what the benchmark is for a dedicated short seller.

Who opened the gates to Dumbass Ranch?

Comment by Xpovos
2007-10-26 06:07:37

I’ve come to be educated here, so now I’m coming for the education. As in, it has happened, so let’s make it happen some more.
Enlighten me. WTF?

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Comment by Ben Jones
2007-10-26 06:17:11

‘Who opened the gates to Dumbass Ranch?’

I am working on a chapter about the housing bubble problem and the solution (making sure it never happens again). IMO, the source of the problem must be clearly identified, which is why I hope you guys will take up this question and help me out. This was in the W&W post yesterday:

‘In the wake of the financial market turmoil that arose over the summer, there has been a remarkable lack of finger-pointing so far over the cause of the crisis. But one observer, Tom Schlesinger, the founder and executive director of a think tank that has followed the Federal Reserve closely for the past decade, believes the blame for the crisis falls squarely on the Fed and accuses the central bank of ‘regulatory foot-dragging’ that has harmed the public.’

I have come to believe the root cause of this financial mania can be traced to the unaccountability of three groups: the US congress, the Wall Street investment banks and the Federal Reserve.

So I ask you, who did open the gates?

 
Comment by Xpovos
2007-10-26 06:25:09

U.S. Congress gets voted in by popular election. I’ve never really held a high opinion of popular opinion. I’m definitely one who believes that converting the Senators from State choice to popular vote was an inconceivably bad idea, which has been singlehandedly responsible for the reduction of States rights. People serve who puts them in power. Senators used to have to serve the state. Now they serve the same people the Representatives do; only for longer.
Off the soap-box, if financial mania can be traced to the U.S. Congress failing to keep accountability, then it can be traced further to the U.S. public for failing to keep accountability on the people it elected.
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance; or the periodic watering of the Tree of Liberty with the blood of patriots. Take your pick.

 
Comment by Ben Jones
2007-10-26 06:31:14

Where I see congress’ unaccountablity is the fact that incumbents are almost always re-elected. Wall Street is ‘too big to fail’ and the Federal Reserve is unelected, secretive, aloof and has never turned in an audit to our government.

Just look at the actions of these guys; the Fed says a bubble isn’t possible, and if it did exist isn’t their problem. Now Greenspan won’t shut up about it and there is no accountability.

Congress just stamps their feet and uses the bubble mess to fund pork and skim votes. Wall Street makes a fortune and lobbys for hand-out!

 
Comment by Xpovos
2007-10-26 06:44:21

As an ex-political science major, let me tell you incumbancy is a big issue. 97% re-election rate in the House.
And I think Wall Street is not ‘too big to fail’. We’re going to watch it fail first hand. It could have a very deletorious effect on the economy.
Bail-outs of the magnitude required just can’t happen, it’s against the laws of economics, as I understand them.
Accountability starts at home, but if there is no accountability; well, there’s still those final accounts to pay at the end of the day.
I’m still not an “ARMageddon” predictor, but I do think we’re going to see a major economic event.

 
Comment by mrktMaven FL
2007-10-26 06:47:29

Henry Paulson, the US Treasury Secretary, is seeking to persuade the White House to offer financial compensation to American mortgage lenders that try to help troubled homeowners by renegotiating the terms of their loans.

The Times has learnt that Mr Paulson is lobbying President Bush to provide funds so that mortgage lenders can reduce the loss that they would incur from either reducing the rate of an adjustable home loan or extending the life of the mortgage to make it cheaper for the property owner.

http://tinyurl.com/38c3hu

 
Comment by txchick57
2007-10-26 06:48:04

I lay it entirely at the feet of IBs, hedge funds and other assorted greedy pigs of that ilk. Of course, the Fed accommodates them but the masterminds of this money grab are on WS. It’s no different than the stock bubble. They seem to spend all of their time trying to scheme up ways to separate J6P from his money or Juan6P as the case may be this time. I could spin you out a whole Truman Show tinfoil hat masterpiece but I assume you actually want to sell your book ;)

 
Comment by Ben Jones
2007-10-26 06:55:18

‘I think Wall Street is not ‘too big to fail’

I completely agree, I’m just saying they proceed as if it is so.

 
Comment by Mohammed The Boogeyman
2007-10-26 07:11:28

Many here will flat out reject this but the irresponsibility in housing finance is merely a symptom of a greater, more sinister problem. It goes hand in hand with “deregulation”, the “laffer curve”, “supply side” etc. This crap has been going on since 1981 and we’re now seeing another display of wreckage from the insane path we’re on. Why are so many so blind to the fact that they were tossed in the garbage heap 30 friggin years ago? I have no idea but the CrimeSyndicate that has been calling the shots for 30 years can proclaim Veni, Vidi, Vici.

 
Comment by Kahuna
2007-10-26 07:43:40

The root is Greed (…the love of money…), normally held somewhat in check by Capitalism, ie greedy crooks keeping each other in check through competing self-interest. But lack of transparency has subverted checks and balances. The housing bubble has been a classic pump-n-dump. To assign blame, just ascertain who got the vig.

 
Comment by Ben Jones
2007-10-26 07:53:54

Yeah, but we can really fix the human nature stuff. Also, Mozilo is greedy, but I see him as a bit player. Many others like him would do the same thing. What I am searching for are the players and institutions thatthat we could take action on to prevent a housing bubble in the future.

 
Comment by txchick57
2007-10-26 08:08:55

A lot of them are likely overseas. Got a big budget to retain Blackwater?

 
Comment by Devildog
2007-10-26 08:22:40

‘In the wake of the financial market turmoil that arose over the summer, there has been a remarkable lack of finger-pointing so far over the cause of the crisis.”

If there has been a remarkable lack of finger pointing it’s because they are all co-conspirators. The very magnitude of corruption from the lowest levels of private sector extending through the government all the way to the highest levels, along with other national events, should awake all freemen to a sense of our awful situation.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-26 08:32:04

“Henry Paulson, the US Treasury Secretary, is seeking to persuade the White House to offer financial compensation to American mortgage lenders that try to help troubled homeowners by renegotiating the terms of their loans.”

Who would pay such compensation? Perhaps Big Hank and some of his Wall Street buddies would consider putting together a bailout fund out of their personal fortunes?

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-26 08:39:22

“‘I think Wall Street is not ‘too big to fail’

I completely agree, I’m just saying they proceed as if it is so.”

Plunge protection ramps up systemic risk, as invester willingness to make stupid decisions is buoyed by a perception of no downside risk. Eventually, global market forces will overcome the paralyzing effect of national-level market manipulation.

 
Comment by M.B.A.
2007-10-26 08:42:30

todd puts my feelings into words better than I can
http://www.minyanville.com/articles/C-db-jpm-bac/index/a/14607

it’s the Fed w/help from WS sleaze (which is now 90% of WS)

 
Comment by Xpovos
2007-10-26 08:46:14

Ooooh! Now I get it.
Well, as has been said elsewhere on this blog, the housing bubble is just an asset bubble by any other name, so the answer to ensure that a new housing bubble doesn’t blow is to ensure no more asset bubbles. What inspires bubbles?
1) Mania - human nature, unchangeable. Therefore there will be bubbles, but mania by itself leads to small bubbles. I’ll join Greenie and call it ‘froth’.
2) Fraud - human nature as well, particularly with regards to sales. The solution here is strict enforcement of tough fraud penalties–at all levels. Definition of fraud may have to be broadened to catch more, but there’s always the hazard of including innocent people in punishment when you broaden criteria. Again to the FF, better that 1000 guilty men go free than an innocent man go to jail. (paraphrasing of course)
3) Unwise investing. People follow the mania and make it more manic. But unless they’re fraudsters (see #2 above) then it’s just stupidity. Let the market hand them their lumps.

If we force stupid money to lose value for investing in mania, and control fraud future bubbles will inherently be small.

Right?

 
Comment by scdave
2007-10-26 08:59:49

I will throw my two cents in here and that’s really all this opinion is worth…..I think this scam has been more political than anything and before I continue this comes from a 30 year registered republican that is a physical conservative and a social moderate….I believe it was all about gun’s & butter…..The federal reserve holding hands with the Bush administration to keep the Indians quiet (awash in $$) while we pursue our philosophical agenda at home and abroad….Remember “Ownership Society” President Bush June 2004..Go here to see…Fact Sheet: America’s Ownership Society: Expanding Opportunities…. It fricken worked !!….Most of the Indians did not give a rats ass what was happening to our civil liberties, outright thieving and fraud or the havoc that we were going to pour into the middle east….They were to busy buying escalades that were pulling $50,000. boats, flipping houses and anointing themselves as developers….I put the blame squarely in the lap of Greenspan for not maintaining the independence of the Federal reserve and being a lap dog for this administration….

 
Comment by Minnow
2007-10-26 09:10:38

My answer is more in the category of “what” opened the ranch gate, not “who.” In the past, it was generally accepted that certain people — the very young, the poor, the uneducated, and those possessing bad credit histories — probably should not be lent large sums of money. That principle got replaced with the idea that home-ownership was a universally- desirable, universally- attainable goal. Politicians pandered, lenders grew greedy, and our gatekeepers — the federal regulators and local property appraisers, especially — capitulated. And, far too few parents, grandparents, and preachers taught the risks of excessive borrowing and the price of greed.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-26 09:14:59

“If we force stupid money to lose value for investing in mania, and control fraud future bubbles will inherently be small.

Right?”

And then the fattest cats who profited so handsomely from the current bubble will not be able to do so in the future, right?

And then they will not be able to send campaign contributions to fund their most supportive Congressmens’ reelection campaigns, right?

Good luck on this.

 
Comment by Hoz
2007-10-26 09:18:11

I think the roots go back decades.

In 1987, the stock market collapse and the Federal Reserve dropped Fed Funds to 0%. This caused the markets to rebound and did not impact the dollar. Federal Reserve intervention in routine markets became the rule.

As manufacturing continued to decline in the US, to maintain any economic growth (even bogus growth), the US developed into a “bubble economy”. Primarily in Financial industries including insurance, the Federal Reserve allowed previously risky investments to occur. In 1994, the Federal Reserve in its March, 1994 meeting even questioned whether their policies would lead to asset bubble growth. In 1995 all reserve requirements were lifted on bank lending on houses for loan amounts less than $1.4MM. In 1999, the Glass-Steagall act was rescinded, allowing banks and financial institutions to take unprecedented risk. Et voila.

This housing bubble is just one aspect of an enormous credit bubble. I blame the Federal Reserve. The Federal Reserve could have said at any time to the government to rein in its spending. The Federal Reserve could have said ‘we cannot finance the government debt’. Instead the Federal Reserve went along with tax cuts and increases in government debt that have bankrupted the nation. These policies did not help the average American, the policies were designed to benefit a very few.

 
Comment by Jim
2007-10-26 09:29:29

Realtors and mortgage brokers both honest and dishonest can only buy/sell and lend based on the heavenly fathers
(the Fed,Wall street, Banks, Congress etc.). Slack underwriting with no solid revue of loans in pipeline, appraisers being chosen by brokers not lenders and the Fed not understanding the way the housing markets functions when rates are at historic lows all caused the crisis we are in now. The housing market is going to be in a slump for a very long time and it will impact our credibility in world financial markets for years to come.
After 9/11 Bush wanted us to shop til we dropped and the policies set in place by the Fed/government allowed us to do just that. Housing became our cash cow with no reguard for real income. ” We have met the enemy and the enemy is us”.

 
Comment by mrktMaven FL
2007-10-26 09:57:29

Securitization without Regulation, they all cheered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Securitization

 
Comment by az_lender
2007-10-26 10:07:36

I think a demographic factor has been at work. When Boomers were young, the focus was on competition for good jobs. When Boomers reached mid-career, they became more interested in speculative investing and less interested in working. Stocks became expensive relative to bonds, but then stocks swooned, driving the speculative money to go somewhere else. REIC was ready and willing to anoint itself the Investor’s Dream. Couple that with the tendency of people over 50 to become “self-employed” and you have a huge increase in the number of realtors AND in the number of investor/fixer/flippers. An astute observer (Grantham?) has pointed out that Boomers cannot all cash out simultaneously — they are just trying to sell their assets to one another, or to each other’s children, so that all can afford to keep up consumption of food, energy, medical care, etc. It can’t work out.
How to prevent another housing bubble? Easy. This one will not be repeated until forgotten. I’d say two generations or maybe two and a half. Sixty years or more.

 
Comment by technovelist
2007-10-26 10:11:38

The Federal Reserve is the actual culprit. Without funny money, none of this nonsense could go on to nearly the extent it has.

 
Comment by bluprint
2007-10-26 10:26:22

The Austrians would quickly point to the Fed as the primary culprit. Here is a pretty good primer (watch the 2006 edition) on Austrian economics vs. Keynsian economics.

http://www.auburn.edu/~garriro/ppsus.htm

The keynsians (which is what most of the government follows) believe this sort of bubble shouldn’t be possible, so they don’t have an explanation for it. The bubble starts with the lower interest rates from the FED, wall street guys/bankers (these are the ones that get the money first) find some place to dump all that liquidity and we inevitably see a bubble in some asset. A few years ago, it was the stock market (tech stocks were popular), more recently it was real estate.

As far as who chooses which asset class gets pumped up? I don’t know..probably the same thing that causes fads to come in and out, it just happens that way. But the main point here in my mind, is that the combination of fiat money along with the government supported monopoly and the influence of the big bankers on the money supply causes this type of bubble.

 
Comment by polly
2007-10-26 11:22:25

When banks lent out their own money they had to be careful to be sure that the borrowers could pay it back. When investors started to buy the loans from the banks (and later the non-bank loan originators), the banks didn’t have to be careful. The investors didn’t think they had to be careful because the securitizers told them that mathematical models (and the slicing and dicing) and historical models of loan failures told them that the investments were safe. But the mathematical models only took into account the good facts about securitizing - that the investors didn’t have to worry about local economic risks like a plant closing which might wipe out the loan portfolio of a local bank. The models didn’t take into account that prices might ever go down or that the riskier borrowers would have worse repayment rates or that people would report fraudulent incomes or that so many buyers would be investors with no emotional attachment to the house.

Add together no risk assement by the loan originators and desperately inadequate risk assessment by the securitizers and investors, no regulation to fill in the gap and innumerate borrowers and you have a recipe for total disaster.

 
Comment by mrktMaven FL
2007-10-26 11:44:33

The relationship between housing and securitization is symbiotic. They fed on each other on the way up and they are feeding on each other on the way down.

 
Comment by mossypete
2007-10-26 12:00:36

It’s all about risk…analogous to the S&L debacle in the 80’s. Borrowers speculate with other peoples money, unqualified borrowers are loaned outrageous amounts of money with no hope of ever being able to pay it back by Brokers/lenders/CDO/SIV packagers who take their cut and pass the risk onto….us, our pension funds, insurance company investments and who knows what else.
I think that this is just further proof that governments role is to regulate markets with reasonable, fair, transparent, uniformly enforced rules for the sake of stability.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-26 15:09:30

“The relationship between housing and securitization is symbiotic. They fed on each other on the way up and they are feeding on starving each other on the way down.”

 
Comment by mrktMaven FL
2007-10-26 17:22:28

Yep, that’s much better.

 
Comment by cactus
2007-10-26 19:38:46

Housing Inflation expectations caused this bubble.
The “smart borrowers” used ARMs and bought the biggest house possible with the most leverage just knowing inflation will make all well in a few years, it always has they would say. Just look at their parents homes how they were hardly affordable at the time but now their biggest asset. All the rich people got that way in RE, this was a common theme in CALI and true in many cases.
How to prvent this from happening again? easy don’t bail anyone out.

 
 
Comment by are they crazy
2007-10-26 09:55:20

Ben: I’m confused by your comments on who is responsible. Ultimately, isn’t it the individual players? No has put a gun to anyone’s head and forced them to invest or buy houses. The minute blame is shifted to banks, government or Fed, doesn’t that allow all the individuals to become victims?

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Comment by Lost in Utah
2007-10-26 13:01:40

Not if the banks, govt, Fed, etc. have created a big smokescreen the averge Joe can’t see through. They play by different rules. Not that one isn’t responsible for their own actions, but sometimes it’s very difficult to see the big picture, esp. if you’re being forcefed propaganda by NAR, Heli Ben, ad nauseum…

 
Comment by kerk93
2007-10-26 15:06:01

Ben, et al,
In one of the first posts I had contributed, I attempted to call attention to the cause. I had attempted to point out that when it began to unravel, it would be important to note the cause, and ensure folks who understand the problem attempt to voice it.

It isn’t because of foreigners, immigrants, hurricanes, fires, lack of terms limits, etc. It is because we’ve been living in socialism. The Fed sets the price of money, and the Congress attempts to determine the best place for the money through their tax legislation (a central body determining the production and distribution of goods and services). I suppose it can work well (although certainly not in the contract laid out in the Constitution). However, if those doing the central economic planning make an error, (and it is obvious they gravely miscalculated the housing phenomenon), the entire structure/state that participated is at risk. Without the central planning, it is much more likely that small percentages will be affected. This isn’t the case.

With the de facto tie of the dollar to oil (making it the reserve currency of the world), the Fed could cheapen the currency and the effects here were kept moderately in check. That is no longer the case. Look at the trouble that is being caused by other nations moving away from the Fed Notes. Look at the gameplan being developed by the Treasury to penalize Iran for moving away from the Fed Notes for their oil sales. When supply goes up while demand goes down, the price must go down-and it holds true for money as well.

In this manner, the politicians were able to literally promise their constituents something for nothing. Since most folks realize that isn’t possible, during this time, others were getting nothing for something. The rules have been changed, and it remains to be seen if they can be changed back. I don’t think so, and the cause is the change of the basic apportionment of taxes and a central bank.

Folks need to grasp how taxes that are apportioned make representatives directly accountable (a republican system of governance, not to be confused with the private political party). Without a private central bank to lend their notes to the government for a low interest rate, the elected officials would have to make spending equal income. This isn’t the case. The officials can appear to promise something for nothing. Katrina spending and fire spending means we’ll all get taxed through inflation, yet most folks don’t realize it (I am in no way attempting to state my value beliefs as to whether funds should be spent or not-simply that we will be taxed, and probably through inflation). Instead of officials asking if it would be acceptable to tax the entire union for these expenditures, it is done with the knowledge that the Fed will buy more debt and tax us all through inflation.

This fiscal and monetary system we have are the problem, assuming most Americans believe in liberty and the Constitution. If folks believe in collectivism, then the problem would be the folks in the elite positions. If not, then it is most certainly the system.

 
 
Comment by Blue Skye
2007-10-26 12:14:46

“Who opened the gates to Dumbass Ranch?”

Great title for a chapter.

My impression is that corruption is systemic. I don’t think you will pinpoint the epicenter, rather several floodgates.

Honest money. We need an honest monetary system. We can’t have that without a balanced national budget. I suspect that we can’t have that and the Federal Reserve at the same time. It is an organization “by the banks, of the banks and for the banks”. We are a nation largely governed by our banks and their elected officials.

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Comment by Mary Lee
2007-10-26 16:49:40

Blue: you’re right, of course. How many people do you know who are clear on the organization of the banking system, even starting as recently as JP Morgan (the banker, not the bank) and moving toward the present?

These people are the epitome of rational self-interest…of the variety which cedes not one whit to any other interest. Their brilliance at gulling the ever-gullible is impressive.

My fantasy is for a handful of the enormously wealthy providing backing for a strong real news service….as a public service. Oddly, there are more than two who are honest, concerned fellows. If anyone could create an engine for profit, I’d think it would be these folk….by way of getting a reasonable return on their cultural investment.

 
 
Comment by Mary Lee
2007-10-26 16:18:54

Satyajit Das book “Traders, Guns and Money” is a horrifying and riveting insiders story of derivatives. More than I wanted to know, but I can’t stop reading. Beyond pure greed, I cannot fathom how these geniuses believe(d) this could continue ad infinitum.

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Comment by CA renter
2007-10-27 05:03:27

Excellent replies, all!

IMO, the cause of the credit bubble is multi-faceted, but is centered primarily on the relationship between banks and politicians (money and power).

It seems that something changed when Ronald Reagan became president. The credit markets seemed to be unleashed and this may well be the impetus for the “growth” we’ve experienced since around 1982.

Credit markets take from the poor/working class and give to the wealthy. Ultimately, this money is only in circulation on a temporary basis, as lenders expect to get all their money returned, with a premium (interest). This money is not the same as money that is exchanged for goods and services. As credit markets grow, the wealthy become even wealthier while the workers become more indebted — forcing costs up, which force workers to borrow more, which forces costs up in a seemingly endless spiral (inflation).

Add to this a tax code which rewards capital over labor (15% LT cap gains tax vs. 25%+ on labor), and there is a much greater incentive to “invest” rather than do productive work. This funnels ever more money into the hands of the few who now have exceeding large amounts of money looking for a place to “invest”. Add to this the money made by Boomers in a very inflationary environment over the past few decades (largely caused by the change in population they, themselves, caused), and you have the makings of a supply-driven credit bubble.

Because there was so little demand for loans after the stock market bubble, the lenders/investors got desperate and began making riskier and riskier investments.

Those who were supposed to regulate and enforce financial laws encouraged all of this and turned a blind eye to the obvious fraud and dangerous risk-taking that was going on. The people who are largely at fault are: the president(s), congress, the OTS, the Fed, Treasury, ratings agencies, SEC, unregulated and opaque investment funds & institutions, regulatory bodies and associations of the REIC, and many more.

Let’s not forget the Fed lowering rates and the Treasury eliminating the 30-year bond when rates were at historic lows, (forcing long-term investors into shorter-term maturities which may have forced rates down in the 10-year and below).

Ultimately, I think the fault lies with the credit cycle, where we reached a point where too much money was being hoarded by wealthy investors looking for a place to go. All the above-mentioned players just tried to keep the party going because they were the beneficiaries of the credit bubble.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Sniggle
2007-10-26 04:31:56

CFC earnings today in about n hour…this should be good:-)

Comment by Evil Capitalist
2007-10-26 05:37:41

I got to get myself whatever the glasses market has… CFC loses 1.2B but market responds as if they made 1.2B!

Comment by txchick57
2007-10-26 05:40:38

Guidance, bro.

Comment by Evil Capitalist
2007-10-26 05:53:32

Pulled out of their a$$. That’s ok. It is a part of my go to ZERO basket from upper thirties to lower fourties.

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Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-26 09:33:36

“Pulled out …”

And naturally, bullish investers buy the story hook-line-and-sinker, driving up CFC’s share price on the news that the full kitsch-and-sink have been thrown in to current earnings.

 
Comment by cactus
2007-10-26 19:52:40

I don’t buy it, CFC is just guessing things will get better and like most of the “should know better people” will be wrong and saying how this just couldn’t be predicted. Government has to bail us out blah blah. I suspect the government seeing the prospect of DEFLATION will inflate and spread this bubble to all who work for dollars and save dollars. Except retired folks for them there really is no inflation so your SS checks don’t go up.
I really don’t think the FED can inflate us out of this mess and I expect Deflation in the end, but to pass the time I buy commodity stocks figuring I can get out before the Recession finally sinks in as the FED runs out of rate cuts al la Japan.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by IllinoisBob
2007-10-26 04:41:23

Merrill’s Chief Is Said to Consider a Bid to Merge
By JENNY ANDERSON and LANDON THOMAS, Jr.
Published: October 26, 2007

Facing billions of dollars in losses from the subprime mortgage crisis, Merrill Lynch chairman and chief executive, E. Stanley O’Neal, floated the idea of a merger with a large bank, a foray that angered Merrill’s board and could cost him his job, according to people close to the beleaguered Wall Street firm.
Mr. O’Neal broached the possibility of a merger with Wachovia, the bank based in Charlotte, N.C., without first getting the approval of Merrill’s board, a major breach of corporate protocol at a time when directors were already concerned about the company’s performance, these people said.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/26/business/26merril1.html?hp

Comment by Hoz
2007-10-26 06:48:39

I know the NYT does not like Mr. O’Neal (and rightly so), but this is one poor piece of journalism.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-26 07:16:25

I don’t like the merger idea. It falls into the category of “if a large bank performs poorly, then what is needed is an even larger bank to fix the problem.” These bloated banking behemoths concentrate risk into the hands of a few heavyweight playas. A bit of group think followed by dumb decisions (like throwing too many beans into the sump-prime lending basket) can then threaten the entire financial system.

Personally, I believe the banking sector would function much better with more, not less, competition.

 
Comment by Pondering the Mess
2007-10-26 09:43:58

Fascinating. Merrill is in trouble, Bear Stearns may be bought out in part by China… When is Justice coming to take the head of “Goldchain Silverknife” - Goldman Sachs, the leader in this collection of Financial Horsemen of the Apocolypse?

 
 
Comment by Andy in Chicago
2007-10-26 04:57:47

Is there a level out there for the dollar that will force the Fed’s hand? They passed my level a while ago, but I don’t know what they are looking for 100/ crude, 1000/ oz of gold, 20% of people on social security having their heat shut off. Or are they looking towards the other hand and they’ll scoot over to protect the currency after 3 banks fail and they realize that instead of ‘too big to fail’ they were instead ‘too big to save’.

Comment by WT Economist
2007-10-26 05:52:23

I guess the FED’s move on October 31st is a legitimate topic. It seems like a rock and a hard place situation — how to manage the decline in our standard of living so it isn’t any worse than it has to be.

So a half down, a quarter down, or unchanged?

Comment by vozworth
2007-10-26 06:15:43

expectations are gonna be managed to a quarter..
Savers will argue no change…

shock and awe at 50 bps cut…..tag and bag the dollar, get the money moving again whether it wants to or not…..

 
Comment by watcher
2007-10-26 10:34:09

Last time I expected a pause and they went half down, so probably another half down.

 
 
Comment by Ghostwriter
2007-10-26 06:05:59

Oil did top $92 a barrel overnight.

 
Comment by Ghostwriter
2007-10-26 08:51:44

Plus banks have been lobbying Congress for years to let them have their own in-house real estate companies. If they ever get that through the consumer won’t stand a chance. They’ll control what’s sold and the financing for it.

Comment by not a gator
2007-10-26 17:07:30

I hope they enjoy being landlords, then. F*** the banks and the horse they rode in on.

 
 
Comment by watcher
2007-10-26 10:29:22

Is there a level out there for the dollar that will force the Fed’s hand? ”

Force them to do what, raise rates and defend the currency? They haven’t been willing to do that for 90 years; I doubt they are going to start any time soon. A more likely scenario is that they will continue to cut rates and hope that the slide will continue to be orderly. High inflation is the fed’s best-case scenario.

More likely, at some point there will be a sudden break to the downside and the dollar will collapse, for lack of a better word. Then we will get hyper-inflation, and we can start calling ourselves Weimar America, or Venezuela, etc. People with hard currency will survive and the majority will live in penury. (Again, see Venezuela). At some point, probably years later a new currency regime will be organized and no one can know what that will look like. Politically, fascism tends to follow currency collapse (see Hitler).

 
Comment by watcher
2007-10-26 10:35:43

Is there a level out there for the dollar that will force the Fed’s hand? ”

Force them to do what, raise rates and defend the currency? They haven’t been willing to do that for 90 years; I doubt they are going to start any time soon. A more likely scenario is that they will continue to cut rates and hope that the slide will continue to be orderly. High inflation is the fed’s best-case scenario.

More likely, at some point there will be a sudden break to the downside and the dollar will collapse, for lack of a better word. Then we will get hyper-inflation, and we can start calling ourselves Weimar America, or Venezuela, etc. People with hard currency will survive and the majority will live in penury. (Again, see Venezuela). At some point, probably years later a new currency regime will be organized and no one can know what that will look like.

Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-26 15:13:04

“Force them to do what, raise rates and defend the currency? They haven’t been willing to do that for 90 years; I doubt they are going to start any time soon.”

Have you ever heard of Paul Volcker? That was his job, and he did it with a vengeance (1979-1982).

Comment by watcher
2007-10-26 17:40:27

Volcker was an outlier, a one off. His counter trend was quickly reversed.

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Comment by Little Al
2007-10-26 05:56:06

Are McMansions going to become the new Hummers as the price of oil breaks 95 and 100?
How bad is this going to get on a social level?
My nephew is already making a killing handling divorces (the new growth industry).

Comment by txchick57
2007-10-26 06:14:31

I’d like to know where the busted clients come up with the 10K - 20K retainer usually required.

Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-26 07:28:30

Let me guess: They borrow the money?

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-26 07:27:01

My sis-in-law, a recent supersized McMansion buyer, may soon join the ranks of your nephew’s clientèle.

Comment by Hoz
2007-10-26 07:39:21

This is one of the uncalculated costs of this government sponsored credit bubble. Houses busting fine - it will recover , stock market busting fine - it will recover, but the social tear will last for decades and society as a whole will not recover for decades.

Comment by Pondering the Mess
2007-10-26 09:51:41

I don’t think they WANT it to recover. Thinks about it: a fragmented, poor society with no jobs, no ability to save (let’s here it for the coming hyperinflation), dismal living conditions, and no hope is easier to control.

If you’re spending all your time working 2 McJobs so you can afford dog-food to eat and $6 a gallon gas, then you get to come home to a run-down McMansion complex full of illegals and out of work people (realtors, etc.) and hope that they don’t rob or shoot you, and finally you get to grab a quick meal before another day of slavery and a night full of listening to loud music from the neighbors… well, under those conditions nobody has time to demand social justice.

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Comment by Devildog
2007-10-26 11:02:59

“a fragmented, poor society with no jobs, no ability to save, dismal living conditions, and no hope is easier to control.”

I think you are right on target with your comment. Where the elitists are wrong of course is in their thinking that THEY will be the ones doing the controlling….

 
Comment by Mary Lee
2007-10-26 16:57:59

How many guns are owned by the American public? Hey, it’s at least one category where we’re indisputedly numero uno.

 
 
 
 
Comment by ozajh
2007-10-26 07:46:00

Heating and/or colling will be a bitch, more due to design than to outright size, but McMansions are actually quite suitable for telecommuting.

 
 
Comment by vozworth
2007-10-26 06:12:12

Im just gonna go on the record about the FED meeting next week.

After much thought, I predict another 50bps move.

yep, another 50…. Hope Now is working, but it needs another shove. Tee it up and let ‘er rip. Market goes up, up, and upper, while the dollar goes in the shitter. Everybody talking hard landing, Christmas is gonna be a off, and the euphoria wont come back…

Energy bubble continues to build… Gold will push through 850 with oil going triple digits..This will be the last cut of the year…..I thought they would move a quarter on two occasions, but “shock and awe” continues…

Comment by txchick57
2007-10-26 06:39:21

I think I”m finished for the year. May try to restock January puts in December but otherwise, this circus can go on without me. I’ve had a good year and chasing crap is not my style.

Comment by vozworth
2007-10-26 06:48:54

no positions as well.

just watching the monster thrash around.

 
 
Comment by vozworth
2007-10-26 06:59:19

I guess the memo got leaked, again…

OK everyone, back to financials…the pain has gone.

 
Comment by watcher
2007-10-26 11:20:10

You are conservative in your estimate. Gold up $16 today.

”The dollar-negative momentum continues to build up,” said Alan Ruskin, head of international currency strategy in North America at RBS Greenwich Capital Markets Inc. in Greenwich, Connecticut. ”We had a string of pretty ugly numbers, both from the real economy side and the financial side. That is weighing on the dollar.”

 
 
Comment by Ghostwriter
2007-10-26 06:28:28

Allstate is cancelling insurance in the fire areas of So Cal. It was called redlining when banks used to do this and only lend in certain areas. Should insurance companies be regulated the same way banks finally were? Or is this insurance cancelling practices going to cause huge areas of the country to become vacant and other less disaster prone areas to become densely populated? Not many are going to live or buy anywhere they can’t get insurance.

Comment by WT Economist
2007-10-26 07:04:41

I think the cancellations are a response to the political unwillingness to allow premiums high enough to reflect risk in high-risk areas. Particularly when premiums will be going up anyway to cope with investment losses.

Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-26 07:31:21

Bingo! If insurers were allowed to compete for the business by pricing the risk appropriately, there would be no “missing markets” problem. Let state regulators come in and muck up the market mechanism, and soon only government insurance will be available.

Comment by M.B.A.
2007-10-26 08:19:46

you nailed it - I wk in insurance…you can always price risk. However, if kept artificially low doe to regs, you will ultimately get a migration out of the mkt.

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Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-26 08:34:39

A similar problem comes up when the Fed protects investors from downside risk. Soon stock prices are way out of wack, as they reflect a temporarily-correct belief that stock prices always go up.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-26 07:22:52

Will the U.S. keep on skirting a recession? And what is Plan B likely to be?

Skirting a recession
If home prices fail to stabilize, U.S. will need a Plan B, Boskin says
By Steve Kerch, MarketWatch
Last Update: 9:06 PM ET Oct 25, 2007

LAS VEGAS (MarketWatch) — Despite severe problems in the housing market, a credit crunch and record-high oil prices, the U.S. economy will skirt a recession in the coming few quarters and get back on a solid growth path after that, economist Michael Boskin told real estate industry executives Thursday at the Urban Land Institute fall conference.
Boskin, a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University and former chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers under the first President Bush, told 6,700 members of ULI that the U.S. economy is clearly slowing, although GDP growth will stay positive.

However, there is a risk that something worse could transpire, especially if housing prices spiral downward, Boskin said.

“There are a lot of headwinds for the economy housing, autos, oil. And we don’t have a lot of shock absorbers left,” he said. “So anybody who doesn’t have a Plan B (for their business) should get one.”

Boskin said job growth, while not booming, remains on a steady pace and that unemployment near 4.5% means the U.S. economy remains near “something that resembles full employment.” And he said that households have added significantly to their net worth in the last few years, not through payroll savings but through asset growth in housing and the stock market.

Savings look OK as long as asset values hold up. And unless there is a large download of asset values, household balance sheets are in good shape,” he said.

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/if-home-prices-fail-stabilize/story.aspx?guid=%7B5203EF67%2DBC96%2D4A14%2D8F62%2D44F5BCB5FD07%7D

Comment by Mary Lee
2007-10-26 17:11:59

I believe this Boskin is the same little charmer who forged our current practices for massaging what passes for the various CPIs… He must’ve hung around after ghwb into the bill and hillary show.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-26 07:25:39

Will consumer spending keep the U.S. economy out of recession? Because consumer spending is allegedly 2/3 of U.S. economic activity.

bulletin
MERRILL SHARES UP 6% AMID FUROR OVER CEO’S UNAUTHORIZED DEAL TALKS; OUSTER REPORTEDLY NEAR

ECONOMIC REPORT
Housing worries consumers, sentiment slumps
By Ruth Mantell, MarketWatch
Last Update: 10:21 AM ET Oct 26, 2007

WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) — Consumers have growing concerns about the housing slump, and the majority do not judge overall economic prospects favorably, according to a monthly survey released Friday by the University of Michigan and Reuters.

Consumer sentiment fell in October from the prior month, reaching the lowest level since May 2006, according to the survey.

The October consumer sentiment index was 80.9, compared with 83.4 reached in August and September. Wall Street economists had expected sentiment to hit 82.0.

The consumer expectations index was 70.1 in October — the lowest level since August 2006 — and below the October 2006 reading of 84.8. The current economic conditions index reached 97.6 — the lowest level since September 2006 — well below 107.3 reached in October 2006.

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/economic-report-housing-worries-consumers/story.aspx?guid=%7B6F69F9DD%2DD7B1%2D4B19%2D8C09%2D618AB4C9AAF2%7D&dist=hplatest

Comment by Arizona Slim
2007-10-26 08:20:50

Okay, here’s a topic. Why is consumer spending 2/3 of American economic activity? Has it always accounted for such a big chunk of our economy? And how does our economy compare with other industrialized nations’ economies when it comes to consumer spending?

Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-26 09:31:20

Not sure. I am guessing that this has to do with the standard macro decomposition

Y = C + G + I + X,

where

Y = GDP
C = consumption spending
G = govt spending
I = investment spending
X = net exports.

Presumably, C/Y = 2/3, to a rough approximation.

Not sure if it has always been this way; the national income accounts only go back to WWII or so, but you could look at the ratio of C to Y back to then to get a picture of how stable this ratio has been over time.

 
Comment by walt526
2007-10-26 17:20:23

In two words: trade deficit.

As PB mentioned, Y=C+G+I+X. The US has negative net exports–IIRC, about equal to capital investments.

Taxes (I’m including everything: FICA, sales, income, property, etc) tend to take in about 33% of income (which the government completely spends and then some), while Americans as a whole have a negative savings rate. Net result is that Consumption winds up being essentially every dollar that Americans aren’t forced to surrender the government. Hence, two-thirds of economic activity is consumer-driven.

 
 
 
Comment by ozajh
2007-10-26 07:30:22

I suppose one obvious topic is the implications of the California fires on the RE market.

Might need to have some caveats about keeping the comments to dispassionate analysis, though.

Where I live (Canberra, Australia), we had bushfires burn through to the suburbs and destroy houses in January 2003. There was an immediate increase in local rents, and once rebuilding started an increase of around 15% in prices. (This was, however, in the context of an already tight market.)

Comment by We Rent!
2007-10-26 07:57:28

I live in Rancho Bernardo. I think the fires might poke a hole in the “everyone wants to live here” argument.

Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-26 08:03:52

We might be neighbors. I hope you were not among the 300 unfortunate RB households to lose your home.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-26 08:07:23

See my comments on your topic below.

One further thought: I expect to see the REIC bulls pull out the argument that San Diego and other SoCal prices went straight through the roof after the late-2003 Cedar Fire (and other Santa Ana fires of that fire season). But it was different then — AG still had his foot on the FFR gas pedal, pressing it all the way to the floor, and everyone still “knew” that real estate always goes up.

Nowadays, I am guessing that some have begun to suspect that real estate sometimes goes down, and for quite a while at that.

Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-26 08:12:49

Other important factors in the “it’s different this time” category (versus the aftermath of 2003 fires):

1) There was no subprime implosion in 2003.

2) There was no credit crunch in 2003.

3) There was an abundance of buyers with buckets of money and boxes of stupid.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-26 08:21:08

One more point (sorry if I have exceeded my point quota):

I believe a graph of San Diego resale inventory over the course of the current decade would clearly show that the inventory correction began in the first quarter of 2004, in the immediate aftermath of the Cedar Fire.

One cannot “prove” the onset of the inventory correction was a direct consequence of the bad October 2003 fires, but this sure does seem like a plausible explanation. The onset of the inventory correction provides contradictory evidence to any assertion that the fires were good for the SD housing market, as evidenced by prices that subsequently continued to go through the roof.

 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-26 07:33:45

Whither the ownership society?

U.S. homeownership rate falls to 4-year low
By Rex Nutting
Last Update: 10:26 AM ET Oct 26, 2007

WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) — Fewer Americans live in their own home than did a year ago, the Census Bureau reported Friday.

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/us-homeownership-rate-falls-4-year/story.aspx?guid=%7B0EF6F4A3%2D0573%2D434F%2D9ACA%2DFB87880DFACE%7D&dist=hplatest

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-26 07:38:30

“The number of housing units occupied by owners fell by a half million over the past year to 75.2 million. The number of vacant housing units has increased by 1.3 million in the past year to 17.9 million, 2.1 million of which are for sale.”

17.9 million vacant homes - 2.1 million vacant homes for sale = 15.8 million vacant housing units sitting empty, not for sale. With 114 million U.S. households, there is one vacant housing unit for every seventh U.S. household.

What is the composition of the 15.8 million vacant homes? And who benefits by having this many homes sit vacant, and off the market?

Comment by Blue Skye
2007-10-26 10:01:47

Do second homes/cottages qualify as vacant if they are not the primary residence?

Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-26 11:31:48

Good question. I am not sure how to process that shocking figure of 15.8 m vacant homes not for sale.

 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-26 07:41:13

Crude oil and gold are both up by over one percent already this morning, and silver is up by over two percent. Will the Fed have to stand pat or tighten to maintain its reputation for toughness on inflation?

Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-26 07:47:18

The U.S. stock market index movements apparently reflect a belief that central bankers are more like magicians and less like dentists…

Leaders
The world economy
Lessons from the credit crunch
Oct 18th 2007
From The Economist print edition

Central banks have worked miracles for 30 years. Don’t count on that continuing

If there is one lesson everybody should take away from the credit crunch it is that central bankers, no less than dentists, are only human.

http://economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9988758

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-26 08:01:18

Besides AAPL and GOOG, what other stocks are in the newfangled Nifty Fifty? (Those who read A Random Walk on Wall Street know this group of stocks eventually succumbed to the same fate as the remainder of the market in the early 1980s.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nifty_Fifty

Comment by txchick57
2007-10-26 08:22:40

GOOG, RIMM and BIDU account for 50% of the Nasdaq gain this year.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-26 08:26:18

Nifty!

October 26, 2007 11:25 A.M.ET
BULLETIN
Microsoft hits six-year high

Shares of the software behemoth and tech bellwether jump 12% early Friday to trade at their highest level since summer 2001.

http://www.marketwatch.com/tools/quotes/intchart.asp?symb=MSFT&time=20&freq=1&comp=&compidx=aaaaa%7E0&compind=&uf=0&ma=&maval=&lf=1&lf2=&lf3=&type=2&size=1&txtstyle=&style=&submitted=true&intflavor=basic&origurl=%2Ftools%2Fquotes%2Fintchart.asp

Comment by txchick57
2007-10-26 08:31:36

I made a buck twenty/share shorting it. I’ll take it. 13% gap? Don’t think so, this is Microsoft, not BIDU.

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Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-26 23:45:25

At what point will I have to kick myself for failing to short AAPL on this daughter of all tech stock bubbles?

Comment by CA renter
2007-10-27 05:14:09

I shorted AAPL (puts). Down almost 100%. :) Woo-hoo!!!

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Comment by Big Bubble Popper
2007-10-26 07:57:22

This may have been a topic before, but even if it has maybe it should be asked again. At what point will you buy a house? In a year, 5 years, when the house is less than 3X income and less than 120X rent, never, etc.?

For me its when the place is less than 120X rent and at least 50% below the price at the peak. There may be a few places like the area where I’m looking as early as next year.

Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-26 07:59:11

Your rule of thumb sounds like a safe one, unless a Black Swan of inflation drives prices up before they hit your 50% threshold.

Comment by Big Bubble Popper
2007-10-26 08:14:32

Even with inflation (unless its hyperinflation and with BB we could have that) I’m not sure its really going to raise the 50% floor of a house price. The 120X rent is the metric I’m really using since 50% below the peak seems to be the same thing as 120X rent so if inflation is a problem rent will go up, and I can compute a 50% off plus inflation number.

Plus, I may buy sooner rather than later (provided that I can afford the place, meets my criteria and passes a solid inspection) since I’m looking for a place to live (and thus not worried about waiting for an absolute rock bottom). I’m also a bit concerned about the solvency of my landlord and landlords in general.

Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-26 08:23:29

You might also consider a metric based on the ratio of local home prices to local incomes, as it seems unlikely in the current credit environment for home prices to rapidly increase unless inflation starts showing up in wages.

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Comment by Big Bubble Popper
2007-10-26 12:21:52

Right and I seriously doubt that inflation will show up in wages.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-26 16:19:57

“Right and I seriously doubt that inflation will show up in wages.”

Which leads me to conclude that you are probably right that home prices will keep falling for the foreseeable future, as lenders are no longer in the mood for making home mortgage loans that are unlikely to ever be repaid, and loan repayment potential is heavily dependent on future wage inflation for all but the very upper-most tail of the wealth distribution.

 
 
Comment by watcher
2007-10-26 10:48:40

You are correct. Housing is a leveraged bet and tighter credit will choke off borrowing. I don’t mean the Fed will tighten, but our true lenders (foreigners) will refuse to throw more money at us.

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Comment by Big Bubble Popper
2007-10-26 12:25:33

And this is the only thing that has me concerned about renting. At one point my landlord admitted to me at least on a month to month basis he can’t charge enough in rent to cover all expenses of the condo unit I rent. I can’t remember where I read this (it might have been on this blog) that some guy had to move 3 or 4 times in the last 2 years because of landlords going under. Renting is clearly the correct choice right now, but I do think I might buy if I meet my criteria for buying sooner rather than later since even if it isn’t the bottom at least I won’t be dealing with the hassle of moving and finding a new place to live multiple times a year.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-26 07:57:58

SoCal fires this week have destroyed close to 2000 homes. Will this be good or bad for the housing market?

The good case:

The 2000 or so displaced households will need a place to live, and that will stimulate building and real estate sales.

The bad case:

(1) 2000 lost homes is a drop in the bucket for a market with 20,000,000 or so residents. The rebuilding effort will clearly have little “broken window stimulation” effect on the SoCal economy.

(2) Nobody in their right mind will be in the mood to buy a home in a fire hazard zone over the next several months. Given that home sales were already bumping along the bottom before the fire storm, I am guessing we will hit all time low rates of sales over the next few months, which will remain the record low for the duration of my time on this planet, and possibly my childrens’ time as well.

Unfortunately for those who are impatient for the market to bottom out (e.g., Realtors), a sudden further precipitous drop in demand will result in further price declines, which feeds back into further buyer reluctance to catch falling knives.

Comment by Ghostwriter
2007-10-26 09:04:33

The 2000 or so displaced households will need a place to live, and that will stimulate building and real estate sales.

People can’t walk away with their checks and buy somewhere else without the banks approval. Remember having to show proof of insurance at closing. Many may just use their check to pay off the mortgage and then they’ll still have the lot sitting there. I would venture to guess quite a few lots will sit vacant and charred if people walk away with their check. I think some will be rethinking, rebuilding in the area.

If the insurance pays off the mortgage, then how much money will these people have to buy another house, especially if they can’t get rid of the lots.

Comment by are they crazy
2007-10-26 10:06:08

What happens to people who lost their homes, but were already either upside down or in foreclosure?

 
Comment by ozajh
2007-10-26 23:54:44

There might be some interesting deals possible, depending on individual dynamics and how creative the institutional personnel are allowed to be.

Are there any cases where a large part of a pre-2002 non-McMansion subdivision got burnt out? That’s what happened here, and a lot of people took the insurance money and either sold the cleared lot or rebuilt on a much larger scale.

 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-26 08:44:01

Does our Fed play a similar role for the entire U.S. stock market as that of a firm buying its own stock shares in order to express confidence that the price will soon go up, thereby encouraging others to buy shares?

Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-26 08:45:52

P.S. In the Fed’s case, they can always print more fiat money to cover the share buyback program.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-26 09:11:15

Are there any rules regarding what assets the Fed and/or Treasury can stabilize? Or do they make up their own rules as they go along?

Comment by watcher
2007-10-26 10:54:17

They have a mandate to intervene in any market necessary, and boy do they.

Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-26 11:26:11

It must be nice to have a mandate with absolutely no legal restrictions.

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Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-26 12:43:24

The Fed is doing a heck of a job, driving a triple-digit rally on the DJIA the Friday after a week-long firestorm of worse-than-expected financial news!

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-26 09:35:37

1) Has the U.S. stock market always done so well on bad news releases?

2) How come the rest of the world does not seem to match our performance in this regard?

3) If it has not always been like this, when did the change occur, and what was the nature of the change?

4) What are the long-term implications of Goldilocks on Prozac?

 
Comment by kckid
2007-10-26 09:38:56

How about for a weekend topic pretend it is October of 2008. Everyone could post as if this we were living at that time. We could make up headlines, personal stories about where real estate is and is headed. After a weekend of posting Ben could save all the postings till October of 2008 and then post all the comments and predictions to see how far off or close to the reality of October of 2008. Might be fun.

Comment by watcher
2007-10-26 11:08:28

Price controls fail to stop black market in food, fuel.
Survey finds many merchants refuse to take Newbucks, demand payment in outlawed gold/silver.

Comment by Gulfstream-sitter
2007-10-26 13:12:22

“Joshua Trees placed on Endangered Species List”

Subhead: “Too many Realtors, Mortgage Brokers and Investment Bankers……not enough trees to go around”

 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-26 09:53:45

There have been regular announcements in SoCal this week to the effect of “The Witch Creek fire is only 30 percent contained.”

My question: To what extent are the fires burning in the global financial system (e.g., the subprime implosion and the credit crunch) contained?

Comment by hwy50ina49dodge
2007-10-26 11:55:13

Prof Bear…money and burning…results in scattered ashes, blowin’ about below a strange colored “mouring” sun…is Wall Street like 7-11… on a 24/7 schedule, with the oddest characters emerging from the “shadows” late at night? “Hello,…we’re nearing…”All Hollows Eve” ;-)

 
 
Comment by Michael Viking
2007-10-26 10:09:05

I’d be curious to know what the best money-making investment was in Japan as it brought its rates to zero and kept them there for so long. How did people make money in that kind of environment? I suspect we could be in for the same.

Comment by watcher
2007-10-26 10:50:15

They sold their yen and bought dollar denominated assets. Google ‘yen carry trade’. P.S. That is last years trade, don’t try it now.

Comment by Michael Viking
2007-10-26 11:59:03

If we think the Fed will lower rates toward zero, we should sell dollars and buy X-denominated assets? What would X be? I guess that’s the big question…

Comment by Professor Bear
2007-10-26 15:04:05

The tricky part is that savvy folks have already bought lots of X and driven its price to bubblelicious levels.

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Comment by ozajh
2007-10-26 23:56:06

I believe credit card companies did extremely well.

 
 
Comment by mrktMaven FL
2007-10-26 12:24:35

Pretend you are a housing bull for a day.

Comment by vozworth
2007-10-26 18:58:24

no way, Im a housing bull, rates are goin to zero, so you better be all in all over the place, doesnt matter….its all positive news….we are in a depression, we dont have wage growth, we dont give a shit, I dont call my banker he sends me offers everyday, sometimes twice…..tooo much bullshit….

make a gift for christmas.it means more than a dollar.

 
 
Comment by Ernest
2007-10-26 17:34:02

NYSE Eliminates Trading Curbs Dating Back to 1987

Oct. 26 (Bloomberg) — The New York Stock Exchange said it will no longer impose curbs on computer-program trading that were put in place after the crash of 1987, claiming they’re no longer as effective in damping swings in prices.

The exchange will stop prohibiting brokerages from entering some program trades when the NYSE Composite Index rises or falls more than 2 percent, according to a notice sent to member firms today. The so-called collars had been in effect since 1988 and were triggered 17 times this year, according to a filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission.

http://tinyurl.com/2vf9ks

Comment by CA renter
2007-10-27 05:19:30

This should be interesting…

 
 
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