Speculators Caught Up In The Bust
The Times News reports from North Carolina. “Hendersonville’s downtown condominium market may be a casualty of a nationwide housing slump as several upscale condominium complexes announced over the past two years have stalled. The condominiums were all proposed for downtown when the housing market here was hot. ‘Obviously, the real estate market has slowed down,’ said Ed Hernando, who has proposed two downtown condo projects. ‘That’s kind of what has affected us slightly because people can’t sell their homes and move into this market.’”
“‘Buyers are on the sidelines waiting for sellers to reduce their prices so they can get better deals,’ he said.’”
From WJZ.com in Maryland. “Seventy houses in Baltimore City are foreclosed every week. ‘It seems as though the American dream has now become the American nightmare,’ said Baltimore resident Joanna Smith-Ramani. ‘With the market going soft, you can’t sell to get out anymore, so you’re stuck with this mortgage and this house you really could never afford to begin with.’”
“The leading cause of foreclosures are adjustable-rate mortgages adjusting so high that some Marylanders find they can’t make the payments. ‘It’s scary to think what will happen. The ultimate thing that will happen is foreclosure; they will drag me from my house bloody and screaming before I give up,’ said homeowner Ray Dawkins.”
“The investors who bought properties to make money are caught up in the bust as well. They make up a third of the foreclosures in Baltimore.”
The Herald Mail in Maryland. “When Donald Shumaker II refinanced his home in 2004, he knew the interest rate would stay the same for three years, after which it would become adjustable. But he didn’t expect what happened.”
“‘I was paying $910 a month,’ he said. In one month, the rate went from 7 1/4 percent to 10 1/4 percent, or $1,375 a month.” “‘Then, they sent me another letter, and my mortgage went up to $1,540,’ Schumaker said. ‘I’d have to have three jobs and no time with my family,’ he said.”
“Last Tuesday, less than 24 hours before his home was to be sold in a foreclosure auction on the steps of the Washington County Courthouse, Shumaker’s attorney filed on his behalf for bankruptcy protection.”
“‘I guess it’s my only option,’ Shumaker said. ‘I’m just going to have to go under, and that’s a sad thing to say.’”
“In the past 12 months, a total of 516 foreclosure notices have been filed at the courthouse. By comparison, 294 were filed during the same period in 2005 through 2006.”
“‘I’m seeing a significant increase. I’ve never seen it this bad. I’ve been doing it over 30 years,’ said William O’Brien, a Martinsburg, W.Va., attorney who handles such cases in West Virginia and Maryland. The number of resulting bankruptcies is ‘going completely crazy,’ he said.”
“A major problem, several attorneys and a local mortgage broker agreed, is that, like Shumaker, many borrowers don’t know what is in the loan agreements they sign.”
“Those agreements are ‘18 to 20 pages long, typically … but nobody reads that stuff,’ said a local mortgage broker, who didn’t want to be identified.”
“Friday a week ago, it was becoming clear to Donald Shumaker what he would have to do. He had tried to refinance with another lender, but was refused. He thought about trying to sell the house, but realized the market is so depressed, he couldn’t get near what he owed.”
“He had stopped trying to make payments to EMC because the debt was snowballing. Sale notices were published in the newspaper. The auction was to begin Wednesday.”
“‘More or less, they give me no choice,’ Shumaker said.”
“Tuesday afternoon, Hagerstown attorney Alex Bognar filed papers with U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Greenbelt, Md., seeking bankruptcy protection for Shumaker.”
The Philadelphia Inquirer from Pennsylvania. “Sales of existing homes in the eight-county Philadelphia region were down about 10 percent in the third quarter from the same period in 2006, data from HomExpert Market Report show.”
“HomExpert’s pending-sales index for August showed a substantial decrease in activity from July that was not unexpected. ‘We had anticipated a decrease in the region’s activity due to the heightened awareness of the credit crisis and mortgage availability,’ said Steve Storti, senior VP of marketing for Prudential Fox & Roach.”
“On the positive side, Lawrence Yun, senior economist for the National Association of Realtors, said, ’speculative excesses have been removed from the market, and prices remain near record highs, reflecting favorable mortgage rates and positive job gains.’”
“‘All real estate is local,’ he noted.”
“Some local observers have questioned HomExpert’s days-on-market averages, which in the third quarter ranged from 53 to 75. To ‘freshen’ a listing, they say, some agents and brokers remove houses from the MLS for a few days, then re-list them at lower prices, to give them the appearance of being new to the market.”
“Tim Crann, a veteran appraiser who handles properties in the five Pennsylvania counties, said he has seen many examples of this ‘resetting the DOM clock,’ and believed that the actual days-on-market figure for many houses was much higher.”
“Storti said he discussed the issue with the firm that analyzes data for HomExpert. ‘Their analysis tells them that manipulation at the broker level of re-listing does not have a significant effect…on days on market,’ he said. Some local Realtors agreed.”
The Associated Press on Connecticut. “Mortgage defaults and foreclosures in Connecticut’s cities have skyrocketed over the past year, a real estate tracking company has found. RealtyTrac said the number of foreclosures increased 547 percent in the New Haven-Milford area, 522 percent in the Bridgeport-Norwalk-Stamford region and 446 percent in the Hartford area in the first half of this year, compared with the same period in 2006.”
“State Attorney General Richard Blumenthal told the Connecticut Post that his office has been inundated with calls from homeowners seeking help.”
“‘We may be on the cusp of a huge wave breaking over Connecticut. People are very understandably upset,’ Blumenthal said.”
“U.S. Rep. Christopher Shays, R-Conn said he is focusing on who is being foreclosed upon and why. He said many subprime borrowers did not put any money down on their loans and ‘never really owned a home in the first place.’”
“‘I can’t imagine helping people who should not have gotten a loan in the first place,’ he said.”
The New York Times. “In neighborhoods in Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx hit hard by the subprime lending crisis, mortgages had the shortest of life spans, taking about a year to go from approval to notice of foreclosure, and many of those home loans were originated by the same few lenders, according to a report released yesterday by State Senator Jeffrey D. Klein.”
“There were 19,729 foreclosure notices filed in New York City and Westchester and Nassau Counties from July 1, 2006, to July 31, 2007.”
“In the Jamaica and South Jamaica sections of Queens, the average time from mortgage origination to notice of foreclosure was 11 months. In Wakefield and Baychester in the Bronx, it was 14 months, the report said.”
“Jay Rosado said he and his wife, Ana, had been locked into two subprime mortgages from Fremont Investment and Loan on their Throgs Neck home. Their payment increased after two years by about $700, to $4,000 a month. After a long ordeal, the couple refinanced both loans at a lower, fixed interest rate.”
“‘It’s horrible what they’re doing to people,’ Ana Rosado said of subprime lenders.”
The New York Post. “State Sen. Jeff Klein yesterday released a ‘Sub Prime Hall of Shame’ report outside the New York Stock Exchange yesterday, naming the banks with the highest foreclosure rates in the city and Westchester County.”
“‘These banks grew rich off of defrauding the American Dream,’ said Klein.”
“According to Klein’s report, the state’s foreclosure rate for 2007 is on track to exceed last year’s by a staggering 60 percent.”
“Army Staff Sgt. Sandra Rolon came back from Iraq and hoped to have the American dream of owning her own home in The Bronx. Instead, the veteran has become one of an estimated 19,000 New Yorkers swept up in the collapse of the subprime mortgage market.”
“‘I feel suckered,’ said Rolon, who’s lost her house.”
‘The time has come for these lending institutions, all these lending institutions on this list, to step up to the plate,’ Senator Klein said at a news conference yesterday. He called on lenders to reconfigure subprime mortgages to help people avoid losing their homes.’
This is why I feel this is just grandstanding. Klein knows that the subprime guys don’t hold these loans and therefore can’t possible ‘reconfigure’ anything. And he calls them ‘banks’ which they are not; probably just for effect. Notice he doesn’t mention who probably really lent the money; Wall Street.
Cows gone, Barn door padlocked, and the key is nowhere to be found…
“Mortgage defaults and foreclosures in Connecticut’s cities have skyrocketed over the past year, a real estate tracking company has found. RealtyTrac said the number of foreclosures increased 547 percent in the New Haven-Milford area, 522 percent in the Bridgeport-Norwalk-Stamford region and 446 percent in the Hartford area in the first half of this year, compared with the same period in 2006.”
These are interesting statistics, considering my “whoop-de-doo” comment about CT median prices over the weekend. What’s interesting, too, is that the Hartford area seems to have the lowest percentage increase in foreclosures. Theoretically, it is the most depressed part of the state, with lower incomes.
My Mom who volunteers in a food bank in Norwalk, has never seen so many people who are asking for help to get by till the next paycheck.
I dunno how these people looking for food even live in Norwalk, unless they’re on the streets. Used to be affordable, back in the day, but not any more.
There are plenty of poor areas in Norwalk and the Bridgeport-Norwalk-Stamford includes Bridgeport which is one of the crappiest cities in CT.
My Father was a bricklayer and built the projects in South Norwalk back in the late 60’s, those people were animals even back then…within a few years windows broken no doors burned out apartments..my father avoided that area because he started to cry.
The (dis)Honerable Senator has also got to realize that there is no money in foreclsoures. These banks are going to go bankrupt now that the chickens are coming home to roost. If he wants to go after someone he needs to get names if individual mortgage brokers, and the bank management and try to get back the fees and bonuses these guys raked in during the boom.
I bet there is a whole lot of NY state public pension money tied up in these junk bonds too. Maybe the Honorable Senator can explain to all the retirees how they should give up their pension so that people can stay in houses they never should have tried to buy.
“Klein knows that the subprime guys don’t hold these loans and therefore can’t possible ‘reconfigure’ anything.”
I have read a couple of Sales and Service agreements (in particular, some made between the Lehman conduit [I can't remember its acronym right now...] and Countrywide). They allow a fairly wide latitude for the servicer to ‘fiddle’ with the terms of the loan, as long as they don’t do anything they would not do with the loans that CTY owns itself, and as long as the adjustments maximize the money flowing into the bonds [aka trust fund]. For instance, the servicer can hold the foreclosed property for up to 3 years, can make adjustments in the payment schedule, can rent out the property, or can even discard it (if it happened to have negative value due to hazardous waste problems, etc.). This is reasonable if you think about it, as the conduit and bondholders don’t want to concern themselves with the nitty gritty of dealing with the FB themselves. I am fairly sure that the bondholders would have a voice in the process only under extreme circumstances since they only have a contractual relationship with the conduit, not with the servicer. I think they would have to go to court claiming that the conduit was allowing the servicer to take actions that did not maximize the value of the trust fund, which I am guessing would not be worth it for most bondholders.
‘I’d have to have three jobs and no time with my family,’ he said.”
Get the kids jobs in a Gap sweatshop. The family that is chained together, stays together.
I hear the Army is handing out some pretty big signing bonuses that might help. Oh, but I suppose that would mean that HE would have to fight and/or sacrifice.
Kinda funny, the Army offered my daughter absolutely nothing to re-up 2 years ago. I was kind of surprised because the government put a lot of money and time into training her. She had also been contracted by private contractors to do the same job at twice the pay. All they did to get them to sign up was try to scare them about being unemployed and weird thing is it actually worked on a lot of soldiers.
Left the Navy as a 6 year Vet late 1991 after Desert Storm. Was offered only $1,000 pre-tax to re-up or unemployement for 6 months totalling about $5,000, then I had the GI Bill for school. It was a no-brainer.
Is renting so awful that you would give up so much quality of life just to “own?” Its ridiculous. I have the same conversation with my brother who is pressuring to buy the house we both just inherited. My standard of living is so much better in my rental than it would be buying my aunts decrepid old house at 3 times the monthly expenditure.
-liz
This sounds like a weekend topic. There is some value in “owning,” and yeah, I’d like a bit of lawn and garden and my own driveway, and be away from neighbors, and paint the walls someday. And, of course, I would like to start on that 30-year journey sooner rather than later. But not if I have to pay twice as much for the exact same dwelling, which is what it was in the DC area. And not if homebuilders dictate what I live in. And definitely NOT if I have to live in a Camazotz development and pay HOA.
And don’t forget, with your HOA, you may not be able to plant the garden you want (try a small corner of your front yard to grow tomatoes, etc, with an HOA that mandates what a lawn is), paint the house the color you want, or build that play-house in the back for your kids.
Some landlords are more permissive than some HOA’s, but that’s not the way to bet. My HOA is really reasonable. I’ve lived here for 7 years and know most of the HOA board members pretty well. They’re always looking for volunteers to serve on the boards too, so I could be part of that dreaded HOA myself. It’s hard to argue absolutes. People just need to be more savvy about the financial conditions they put themselves into. Renting too big a place can bankrupt you too, shoot, my wife was in debt renting a one bedroom apartment in a complex that was mostly Section 8 residents. It’s not hard to get into financial difficulty, for many college graduates all it takes is moving out of mom and dad’s place and renting a place of your own.
“Those agreements are ‘18 to 20 pages long, typically … but nobody reads that stuff,’ said a local mortgage broker, who didn’t want to be identified.”
In Maryland, the Adjustable Rate Rider is about two pages and signed separately. I’m looking at a friend’s documents now. She and her husband signed it where right on the front is the interest rate in bold face: 9.36%! This on a refi where they pulled out about $60k above their previous mortgage.
Now admittedly, it might take more efort than they were willing to expend at the time, but the floating rate of 8.11% abover LIBOR (ouch)!) was also there on that page. That’s realyl going to do them in (and actualyl is already). Her being a computer programmer, you’d think she could read and figure that out.
But the case at the time was: “We just need the money now. It doesn’t matter.”
Do you know what they “needed” it for?
Nose candy?
More likely credit card bills, remodeling or college costs, but that is the point. I wonder about what people claim to “need” more money for when there is a possibility that the future payments will really hurt them. Paying past expenses is one thing. Desire for a new kitchen is another. Fixing the roof is yet a third. Keeping kids out of debt while letting them go to an expensive college is another.
I think we trivialize the lack of financial savy in this country when we guess that the people who have problems are drug users. Despite the psychobabble, money isn’t a drug. If you are an adrenaline junky, there are cheaper ways to get it than going shopping.
Nah, no nose candy for them. They’re pretty straight people.
Their problem, though, is low income and lack of spending discipline. Case in point regarding the latter: They know they’re in deep finanicial doo-doo, yet go spend $500 for a weekend off somewhere watching their favourite football team!
You know there’s a problem when you hear “This interest rate adjustment just comes at the worst time, right when football season is really getting going.” Ugh. Maybe they can show the team they’re such good fans that they’ll be allowed to live in the stadium once their house is gone.
Hmmm…. my reply got lost, or heavily delayed. No nose candy for them; they don’t even drink. (Or read well or do math well, apparently.) Their real problem, though, is that they have no spending restraint, squandering heaps of money on football tickets and travelling, and always lusting after new, bigger SUV’s. On two modest incomes, the only way to “keep up” was to borrow more, apparently.
Actually, my husband and I had to refinance this year, with Wichovia, and they walked us through the loan documents step by step, pointing out the fixed rate and terms, so I don’t know what folks mean when they say they didn’t “read” their loan documents. They’re just fixated on those granite counters, or perhaps adding another 1,000 feet to their McMansion so their walk-in closet is the size of my house.
I was loathe to take out this 2nd, by the way. Even though we have plenty of equity on paper, having purchased our home before the bubble, I’m mindful that home values must sink much further to return to some semblance of normal. However, we were careful to factor in how much our monthly outflow would be to cover our loan, and actually are better off than paying off our piecemeal car loan and credit card debt. No extravagance here, our cars were bought used and we live very modestly. Gosh, I even do the housework and the yardwork and wash my own car in a neighborhood where teenage boys no longer cut the grass on postage stamp yards. But, we live in an expensive area (where I grew up) and had some employment set-backs which we are just now recovering from, so getting this loan seemed like the prudent thing to do. We can’t really downsize, other than moving out of state.
FYI, scrutinizing our monthly bills we discovered we were paying $10 a month to Cox cable to rent a cable modem that we bought for $14 on E-Bay. Lots of phantom costs out there…
Probably to get the new Hummer, the vacation that they “deserve,” after market body part upgrades, etc.
This is why lawyers need to be required for these things. Of course, I know someone who is buying a house, (from the Toll Brothers!!) I sugested he get a lawyer…nah, I don’t need one, he said…BECAUSE HE IS A LAWYER! I mentioned to him, that he’s not a real estate lawyer, or anything like it, but, of course, the lawyer has a fool for a client. He also saw no need for a house inspection on a new house, naturally.
poor little me! I wanted a piece of the housing action and now I ended up on the wrong side of the trade. Please feel for me and all my fellow bad decision makers. Boo-Hoo
Interesting angle - filing for bankruptcy to protect the house.
I wonder how that strategy will impact the housing market.
Buy a house at the barest edge of affordability, then declare bankruptcy when the monthly payments jump. One gets to keep the house - for how long? How does that work in the long run?
I don’t understand this strategy really. My impression was that keeping the house would still be contingent on making the payments. (Which the Hagerstown MD guy can’t or won’t do.) Can someone clarify this?
BK usually just stalls the action for a time.
Here in NYC, Judges are not going to let tenants stay in their apartments while the landlord’s bill gets higher and higher. So Eviction is fast tracked and the tenant must pay “use and occupancy” on time with the courts…which is about the same as rent or the judge will issue a warrant to evict.
Not being up to date on the revised BK laws, someone else might explain better than I. My .02 is that this “strategy” is just a delay tactic. If they did a Chapter 13 filing, yes, as you say payments would be made through the workout plan. If Chapter 7, then the bank can petition the house out of the BK in a matter of a few weeks and continue the foreclosure, and you’re right back where you started. Pay up or get out.
Maybe these folks think eliminating other debt can help them keep the house. Who knows.
In these situations, the bank just files a motion for relief from the automatic stay which is routinely granted and then continues with whatever foreclosure action they have already begun. If the property was going under the auction block, the debtor may — repeat may — have bought another month or two. The BK borrower can reaffirm the loan if they want to keep the house (and the bank goes along) but one problem with the 2005 “reforms” requires debtors whose income exceeds the state median to repay other creditors a portion of the (usually) unsecured other debts so BK doesn’t provide nearly as much help as was once the case for higer income types.
In many of these situations, all the equity was financed out long ago, so the debtors are often at or over 100% LTV by the time they file. Throw in all the declines that are just brginning to take hold and well, you can see where this going . . .
It doesn’t say he filed BK to protect the house, it says he filed to protect the person. The house is already foreclosed. if he wanted to keep the house through BK he needed to file before the foreclosure, IMO. My guess is the BK is to protect him from when the bank goes for a judgement against him for the loss on the mortgage and/or the HELOC debt. I’m not sure, but if a judgement comes after his BK is discharged he might be double fooked.
…And it just keeps getting worse.
Roidy
Went to a halloween party on Saturday. Very low key. Well, housing came up as it is wont to do. One woman who works at a bank though I don’t know which one or what her role is, was very emphatic that it is the adjustable rates that are the problem. You can argue that, though leaving it there implies that a few refinancings and all will be well. I tried to explain that it was more complicated. May have gotten through to a few.
One man, however, looked at me like I had suddenly grown a new head when I said this mess would take years to sort out. His estimate was…get this…6 months. And this is in Maryland close to DC.
Funny, I didn’t notice any Kool Aid at the party.
Adjustable rates probably were the cause of the tail end of the price peak. By taking advantage of the VERY low prevailing short term rates (read: temporary), banks could allow borrowers to “qualify” for huge loans. It wasn’t just ARM’s, though. The whole 100% financing thing really fed that bubble like crazy. As did the media and anyone who kept promoting the fallacy that housing always goes up.
As for the guy who thinks that Maryland will be sorted out in 6 months… and then what? Prices start going back up? BWAAAHAAHAAHHAAA!
Yeah, that is one of the ways to know that a person hasn’t really absorbed what “bubble” means. If you think the 2005 peak was the correct price for houses and this is a temporary set back, then you just don’t get it yet. And perhaps that is when the prices will really collapse. When regular folks figure out that the old prices aren’t coming back.
I did say that the prices couldn’t come back without a massive increase in wages, but he was beyond convincing.
“Funny, I didn’t notice any Kool Aid at the party.”
It was in the water barrel where they were bobbing for apples.
My wife went to a Holloween party and came back with a “prospectus offering” on the party house that was for sale. This is in SW Minneapolis area. 18 acre, 10K sqft house where it is totally pimped out and everything was overdone (IE steam room could sit 25, kitchen had 3 refrigerated spaces, etc). At any rate, the taxes are 27K/yr. The house was reduced to 3m from 4.5m. The couple is getting divorced and the wife retained the house. The trophy wife has a background in hairstyling and is currently working her financial life back to square one. We came back to visit here and currently count 3 couples in divorce court and climbing. What a mess.
A trophy house, a trophy wife… ah, the new American way! Divorce lawyers will also benefit from this popping Bubble and the resulting economic crash, sadly.
attorneys? ha ha ha, I am seeing divorces left and right: young, old, first, second marriages, white, hispanic, black….and I practice law in the eye of the housing bubble storm: Florida!
though I am a bit peeved that the real danger is the falling dollar …the housing is just a symptom of bad things to come…
I was at the George Mason swimming pool in Fairfax a few weeks ago and overheard two guys (one of whom was a banker) talking about the housing bust in the exurbs of Northern Virginia.
He was pretty matter-of-fact about the problem…not sounding overly alarmed about it, but aware that it was a growing problem. Seemed like he felt that it would the damage would be limited to the exurb areas (Manassass, Centerville, Fairfax) and wouldn’t hit Arlington or Washington too hard.
I think he’s wrong on that but he at least was willing to admit that this is gonna hit those exurb areas really hard.
I too went to a Halloween party this Saturday. Wasn’t very low key. In fact, my head still hurts. I went dressed up as Thurston County commissioner Diane Oberquell, Dist 2. (D)
I wore workboots, work gloves, a lunch box, a lacy nightgown and a big yellow hard hat with ‘Trees Are Stupid’ written on it.
I was pretty pleased with myself.
Hey Olympiagal
I lived in Oly for about 15 years - graduated Timberline HS in 1975. Would like to get some local info from you. e-mail me at kbarrett “at” USIG.com
The punch was $piked…
I think there are a lot of Kool aid drinkers out there still, went to a function, housing came up and the husband of a young couple said now was a good time to buy, prices are close to the bottom and with the fed continuing to cut rates they would start going up again soon…Rather then rain on his parade I did’nt really respond…Another friend of a friend just baught a place with only 5% down on a 30yr fixed and admited to montly payment would be stretching it, so banks are still giving low downpayment loans to poeple who are strenching to afford a house, and there are still a lot of kool aid drinkers willing to catch the falling knife, this is gonna be slow and painful, it’s gonna take the gouvernment to admit were in a recession before all the kool aid is gone….
Maryland is the walking dead, though the folks don’t know it yet. Oh, we won’t go down totally, but it is NOT different here:
- New, higher taxes on everything thanks to a one-party government. This will continue to spiral out of control based upon the current path.
- Illegals everywhere, and that’ll get worse if Virginia or PA start clamping down on them since they’ll move here and this state doesn’t have the guts to do anything other than raise taxes.
- High crime rate in Baltimore, and the ghetto is spreading.
- Absurd cost of living in the state, overcrowding, etc.
Everyone is counting on BRAC to save everything and bring magical happiness to Maryland. I think it’ll do very little except add more crowding in a few areas.
Woohoo! Stocks are up. The FED might cut rates. Profits aren’t so hot but who cares? The FED is going to cut rates and the dollar is going to get POUNDED
BOOOYYYAAAAAA!
Let me add, and oil is at $93 and heading to $100.
I can just hear Jim Cramer saying, “BOOOYYAAAA!” when news like this comes out. You know he is loving it.
As Jim would say, “But I am for helping homeowners and the little guy.”
Uh huh Jim, sure… sure you are…
The FED is going to cut rates and the dollar is going to get POUNDED
Only a temporary phenomenon. What do you think’s gonna happen to European jobs* if the dollar keeps on going down? They’re comin’ to America. Which mean European economies will crater and Europe will have to cut rates, which will send the euro falling against the dollar. It’s a cycle.
* Boeing is kicking the crap out of Airbus not because its products are so much better-made, but because the dollar has fallen almost 40% against the euro since the euro’s peak around 5 years ago. That got reflected in higher Airbus prices, which tended to diminish demand for Airbus products.
They will only bring jobs back to America as a last resort. That means we’ll have to have a much lower standard of living, similar to the poor in currently cheap nations. I hope we all enjoy living in shanty towns, etc.
“Those agreements are ‘18 to 20 pages long, typically … but nobody reads that stuff.’”
These people will closely read about Paris Hilton’s escapedes, or the stats on their favorite sports team - things that don’t matter a whit regarding their own lives - but they won’t bother to read a loan agreement that commits themselves to repaying hundreds of thousands of borrowed dollars.
Amazing.
When my wife and I bought our last house, we spent 2 1/2 hours reading and discussing every paragraph in the closing docs before signing. The tile company reps hated us.
Let’s not lose sight of the fact that the reason those documents are 30-40 pages (20-30? yeah. right) is that the REI doesn’t want you to read them. IMHO any agreement more than a few pages is an attempt at dishonesty by one or both of the parties involved.
Thank God for my wife. Usually not too into details, she read every clause in both the mortgages we’ve signed, and both had numerous “errors” that we had corrected before we signed.
My experience was similar (in fall 2000), though we had a pretty sharp attorney with us as well to tell us exactly what was boilerplate mumbo jumbo and what deserved a closer read. The title guy was fidgety and annoyed that we wanted to know what we were signing. I had to tell him to shut the f*ck up at one point.
Excellent.
“‘Then, they sent me another letter, and my mortgage went up to $1,540,’
OMG, he’s paying 6.99% above LIBOR!
Interestingly, in his case, the Adjustable Rate Rider doesn’t say specifically what his initial interest rate is; it only says the monthly payment. It goes on to say that it will never drop beloe 7.25% but could go as high as 14.25%.
Which brings up the point of what I think would be the single most useful change to the mortgage document procedure:
Simply require lenders to state in a standardized manner (a la HUD-1) these items:
Based on making the minimum monthly payment, what is:
(1) Initial rate and payment,
(2) Best case rate and payment,
(3) Worst case rate and payment
This might alert math-challenged people like Donald that his payment could actually go from $912 up to $1540, instead of some abstraction off of LIBOR that requires him to actually do some math.
By the way, his mortgage was made with Fremont. Eeeek! I bet the poor guy called up the phone number on one of those poorly-xeroxed flyers that mortgage brokers were sending out in droves at the peak of the refi boom. “Dear Mr. Shumaker II, according to our records you are paying too much in mortgage interest on your current loan…”
With an ARM, people should be qualified for the “worst-case” or highest possible interest rate scenario. It is stupid to assume the interest rate, which is at historic low, will not go up!
Indeed. I always found it amazing that banks could justify lending people money based on the intiial payments — at what seemed even at the time to be unusually low rates.
What was even more amazing is that the ratings agencies passed muster on this crap.
What is NOT amazing is that now it’s all falling into a steaming, stinking heap.
The Banks did it because they could collect a fee and then sell the loan to some bond holder
The rating agencies did it because they could collect a fee when they gave the bank’s bonds a good rating
Rake in the fees and pay out the bonuses and its all good because they don’t hold the bad paper. Sure long term it sucks but its all about today’s stock price, and this quarters dividend and bonus.
I’d go even further.
Require a single page of 30 rows and 12 columns. In each space, insert the maximum payment that could be required for that month. Table followed by a simple declarative sentence stating whether the property would be owned at the end of that time or whether it would still require a balloon payment to pay off the mortgage. Skip telling them about the minimum payment. People need to plan for the maximum one in any case.
That might work.
Truth-in-lending laws already exist. If they were violated, the FBs can and should sue. And probably will. I don’t think any change of format would have solved the problem of people’s gambling on forever-appreciating prices.
Really? Because I think something that blatant might have stopped a decent % of the FB’s. Not all, not even close. But 10-20%? Sure. Multiplication might be beyond them, but row after row after row of monthly payments at $2000 or $3000 or $4000 dollars a month. Most would still have fallen for “you can refinance before it resets” mantra, but not all of them.
I don’t buy it. If a lender tells someone: “Your payment is $2000 per month” I don’t see any need to require the lender to make a large chart showing that on every month.
If a borrower is too stupid/retarded to infer that payment is for EVERY month, then they can’t be helped. This isn’t rocket science, they knew what the payment was, they made the decision to accept it anyway.
I have often thought society could (voluntarily) be divided into two groups of people: “competents” and “incompetents”. Everyone would decide for themselves which group they are in. “Competents” would be allowed ultimate liberty and responsibility. “Incompetents” would be provided with all the “help” they need, but wouldn’t be allowed to make any of their own decisions (therby minimizing the costs of their “mistakes”). I often wonder how many people would voluntarily label themselves into the incompetent group…
have often thought society could (voluntarily) be divided into two groups of people: “competents” and “incompetents”. Everyone would decide for themselves which group they are in. “Competents” would be allowed ultimate liberty and responsibility. “Incompetents” would be provided with all the “help” they need, but wouldn’t be allowed to make any of their own decisions (therby minimizing the costs of their “mistakes”). I often wonder how many people would voluntarily label themselves into the incompetent group…
Unfortunately, research shows that incompetent people often don’t know they are incompetent. That’s because the abilities and knowledge needed to be competent are the same as those needed to determine whether you are competent. See this article for details.
Unfortunately, research shows that incompetent people often don’t know they are incompetent.
At least, until the time comes to foot the bill. Then it’s all “I didn’t understand this” and “I didn’t know I was supposed to do that”. Everyone is a genius when the coke is flowing and the strippers are still looking good, and everybody is suddenly stricken dumb (and incompetent) once the party is over.
“That might work.”
Don’t underestimate the power of “I’m gonna get rich. Sign me up!” mania.
“Hendersonville’s downtown condominium market may be a casualty
this is a gag, right ?
I’m sticking w Lubbock and Asheville and Madison
I thought the same thing. I suggest we add Wheeling, WV and West Memphis, AR to the list of better choices.
Herdersonville is a nice place, as it turns out. But I’m of the same mind — condos there? WTF are they thinking? It’s just a sleepy little mountain town. The point of living there is to be close to nature and get AWAY from the urban condo lifestyle.
WHOO HOO let’s let CONgress steal everybody’s IRA money too…..
Ira’s are now protected in a Bankruptcy, but i’ll bet most people don’t know that, so to take it out tax free and band aid the house seems like a logical thing to do for Moron “homeOWEnahz”
==============================
Congress is now considering several bills including one that would allow troubled homeowners to withdraw up to $100,000 penalty free from their retirement accounts to save their homes
You mean it should say,
“Congress is now considering several bills including one that would allow troubled homeowners to withdraw up to $100,000 penalty free from their retirement accounts to save banks from making stupid loans”
So true.
Congressional plan:
Step 1: Allow penalty free withdrawls.
Fast-forward a few years…
Step 2: Make IRA’s non-exempt from recourse.
Result. A world of pain.
So the penalty is gone, but then the income taxes will still eat 33-45% of the withdrawn amount. Even if you ignore the implications for retirement, does $60K really save many houses?
Probably not, but it means more cash in the federal/state coffers to spend.
If you do not pay the 100k back in 3 years you have to pay the penalty. This doesn’t not sound like a good deal to me. But hey, what do I know?
“Congress is now considering several bills including one that would allow troubled homeowners to withdraw up to $100,000 penalty free from their retirement accounts to save their homes”
Is this true? If so, Niiiiice. So not only will you lose your home to foreclosure, but it will take your retirement account with it. How dumb can you be? If you’re underwater, let the house go and preserve your IRA.
Wall Street won’t allow that to happen.
Good point: wouldn’t all the shmucks removing all their 401k money cause the market to crash? Unless they WANT it to crash to lower rates to 0% or a negative rate (penalty for savers)… Hmm… it is difficult to figure out the path, though the end goal is the same: everything of ours ends up belonging to Wall Street.
I wonder what Congress will do when we have no future tax base left by schemes such as this one. Banks and credit markets should be absorbing the cost of the errors in the housing market not small investors. Institutions should take the losses. The rest of us will need our IRA’s. If one finds themselves in a bad loan situation, research your options, but losing the home will be the best choice for many if not most. Congress is not helping people with these schemes it is favoring institutions that will prey on people with little knowledge.
How many FB’s have even close to $100k in IRAs? Seriously? These “relief” plans predicated on FBs having been financially prudent aside from their mortgages/housing choices are laughable. Methinks anyone with big money (read: amounts that would make a difference in the long run) in their IRAs are not in the ranks of the FB.
Very few FB’s have 100K+ 401(k) balances. Most of the younger ones have zilch.
I have counseled younger people to save. They tell me that they can’t. So I tell to start with 1%. Then if they get a cost of living raise next year, to bump it up to 2%, and repeat until they have 10% or more.
At this point, they say that there is no point in saving, because the stock market is unstable, and banks pay too little interest. I then remind them that the company provides a match, and that is basically free money that they are leaving on the table. But they still won’t save.
“How many FB’s have even close to $100k in IRAs? Seriously?”
I’ll take “Numbers that begin with zero” for $200
“Congress is now considering several bills including one that would allow troubled homeowners to withdraw up to $100,000 penalty free from their retirement accounts to save their homes.”
Here’s the kicker, you have to pay it back in 3 years otherwise you get penalized. Now if you could afford to pay back that much money in 3 years why would you need to borrow from your retirement? It doesn’t make any sense to me.
Use part to catch up on your payments and spend the rest on lottery tickets?
Congress doesn’t want to protect peoples retirements. IRA’S ARE EXEMPT ASSETS IN BANKRUPCY. People will be hosed out of the ability to save their lives by any law that encourages the use of IRA’s to save bad loans.
“‘All real estate is local,’ he noted.”
But the credit market is global.
He said many subprime borrowers did not put any money down on their loans and ‘never really owned a home in the first place.’”
“‘I can’t imagine helping people who should not have gotten a loan in the first place,’ he said.”
Senator Shays from CT is right, but will he be re-elected? It’s been mentioned before, but as foreclosures and bankruptcies climb, soon people will hear anecdotally about friends and neighbors to whom this has happened.
I think it will still take a while, as Ben’s posts indicate how resistant folks are to following economic news, but I think that by Christmas the general mood will be one of fear and anger, with voters demanding to know what happened to the money. Add to this lowered local tax revenues, unfunded public pension obligations with the leading edge of the boomers retiring, the muni bond mess, more layoffs, skyrocketing food and oil, and the crashing dollar, and the voters may start screaming, Where is the Money?? And I don’t think Bush will escape this on his watch. It’s moving too fast.
“Senator Shays from CT is right, but will he be re-elected? It’s been mentioned before, but as foreclosures and bankruptcies climb, soon people will hear anecdotally about friends and neighbors to whom this has happened.”
He just might get re-elected, since he has done a good job of appealing to a wide range of people in his district. However, the economy, when not good, seems to have a way of weeding out incumbents. It also depends on how many immigrants, legal and illegal, are in his district. My sis lives in a part of Fairfield County that is not so affluent, not far from Danbury. She tells me there is much anger on behalf of the less affluent who briefly owned a home and are now getting foreclosed. Very sad stories of neighborhoods that briefly upgraded due to people taking pride in the fact that they owned a home, now downgrading due to foreclosures and people trashing homes in anger over losing what they thought they had.
I’m onboard with one pundit that stated that the administration will do whatever it must to delay the impact until after the election. That way the problem will likely be in the hands of the Democrats, and fuel for the next election’s rhetoric … and that is coming from a conservative Independent (me) who doesn’t believe in conspiracy theories.
I remember how Clinton sneered at Bush when as he passed the mantle. Something along the lines of “what is about to happen will have your name associated with it. HAHA.” Same will be true this time.
Shays is not a Senator. He represents the wealthiest Congressional district in Connecticut. I am sure a lot of Bankers help fund his re-election campaign. I don’t think he is going anywhere.
“U.S. Rep. Christopher Shays, R-Conn said he is focusing on who is being foreclosed upon and why. He said many subprime borrowers did not put any money down on their loans and ‘never really owned a home in the first place.’”
“‘I can’t imagine helping people who should not have gotten a loan in the first place,’ he said.”
Hear, hear! You go, Shays!
on the other side hillary,dodd,waxman,frank say
gee, let my peoples go
they missed the large rpint where they had to initial 4 times
flatf, I love this, especially “rpint” a great aesthetic touch
Now he needs to go tell Paulson that lenders shouldn’t be bailed out either.
He needs to tell Paulson to do his job and attend to the financial health of the US, instead of brokering some nuclear deal with India. What an a$$wipe. He’s the Secretary of the Treasury, not of the State Department. Must be something in it for Goldman Sachs. I’m sick of these guys bending us over for the globalistas.
Yeah, I read that post. What’s up with that?? Maybe some of our tax dollars are going to pay for it. I’ve read a couple times in the past that US tax dollars help fund the French nuclear arsenal in some way, so why not bribe the Indians as well??
Sorry if this is posted twice. I think Shays now needs to go tell Paulson that lenders don’t need bailing out either.
“‘It seems as though the American dream has now become the American nightmare,’ said Baltimore resident Joanna Smith-Ramani. ”
One of the lesser-known dangers of foreclosure - the use of incredibly stale cliches.
Coming soon - Saw V. An overextended borrower wakes up in his McMansion, chained to a mortgage broker. His ARM is about to reset, and his only means of escape is a nearby sausage grinder. The mortgage broker’s hand is roughly the size of a sausage…
Comment by palmetto
2007-10-29 07:11:52
“U.S. Rep. Christopher Shays, R-Conn said he is focusing on who is being foreclosed upon and why. He said many subprime borrowers did not put any money down on their loans and ‘never really owned a home in the first place.’”
“‘I can’t imagine helping people who should not have gotten a loan in the first place,’ he said.”
Hear, hear! You go, Shays!
______________________________________________________________
I agree wholeheartedly, as long he takes the same position when it comes time to bail out the people who never should have GRANTED the loans in the first place, either.
“as long he takes the same position when it comes time to bail out the people who never should have GRANTED the loans in the first place, either.”
I’m not holding my breath on that one. Shays has a Fairfield County district, home to a lot of Wall Street/Hedge Fund money. Politically, I’m guessing he’ll refuse to bail out the borrowers and figure that Wall Street, et.al, will be punished enough by the defaults, without having to overtly anger Da Boyz.
“On the positive side, Lawrence Yun, senior economist for the National Association of Realtors, said, ’speculative excesses have been removed from the market, and prices remain near record highs, reflecting favorable mortgage rates and positive job gains.’”
“‘All real estate is local,’ he noted.”
——————————————————-
This douche bag angers me. Ben…… why?
Hey ex - I know your question is rhetorical, but I just have to chime in that it’s not just the guy who angers me, but the lazy-ass “journalists” who quote this guy as if he has any credibility. At the very least, I think they should precede his quotes with a qualifier, such as, “Lawrence Yun, hired gun for the National Association of Realtors whose job it is to make the real estate market look good…” This crap about being Yun being a senior economist supposese that he is speaking in that capacity with these quotes. That’s like a used car salesman touting his experience as an auto mechanic.
“speculative excesses have been removed from the market, and prices remain near record highs”
Do you think Yun spent an hour in front of the mirror practicing this line with a straight face?
“You talking to me?”
“State Sen. Jeff Klein yesterday released a ‘Sub Prime Hall of Shame’ report outside the New York Stock Exchange yesterday, naming the banks with the highest foreclosure rates in the city and Westchester County.”
“‘These banks grew rich off of defrauding the American Dream,’ said Klein.”
Everly yours…
When you wanted a house, you got an a.r.m., when want gets screwed
And foreclosure’s charms, whatever you wanted?
All many have left is a drea-ea-ea-m,dream,dream,dream
When you feel blue in the night, and you try and
Hold on tight, whenever I watch you
All many have left is a drea-ea-ea-m
You can pay in time, initial interest rates are fine, anytime night or day
Only trouble is gee whiz(?)
You are dreamin’ your life away
I told you so that dreams could die, I told you so
And that is why whenever I watch you, all you have left is a
Drea-ea-ea-m,dream,dream,dream,drea-ea-ea-m,dream,dream
Whenever I watch you, it’s all about the drea-ea-ea-m
I watch your finances die, I told you so and that is why, whenever I watch you
I have to question the American Dream, drea-ea-ea-m
Dream,dream
Whenever I watch you all you have left, is a drea-ea-ea-m…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HlvwkesRbo
‘With the market going soft, you can’t sell to get out anymore, so you’re stuck with this mortgage and this house you really could never afford to begin with.’”
Stuck in a house you never could afford to begin with.
Doesn’t that just sum it all up.
If the easy money wasn’t there to begin with, you would not have been able to get a loan.
But Suzanne Research it, and buying was a good idea.
Pay the bill you agreed to pay. I suggest a second job.
“Stuck in a house you never could afford to begin with.
Doesn’t that just sum it all up.”
Testify, brothah!
“Testify, brothah!”
That’s always brings me a chuckle……
“Stuck in a house you never could afford to begin with.”
Goes nicely with “Stuck with a war we cannot win”
or “Stuck with a president who cannot lead”
Some local observers have questioned HomExpert’s days-on-market averages, which in the third quarter ranged from 53 to 75. To ‘freshen’ a listing, they say, some agents and brokers remove houses from the MLS for a few days, then re-list them at lower prices, to give them the appearance of being new to the market.”
“Tim Crann, a veteran appraiser who handles properties in the five Pennsylvania counties, said he has seen many examples of this ‘resetting the DOM clock,’ and believed that the actual days-on-market figure for many houses was much higher.”
“Storti said he discussed the issue with the firm that analyzes data for HomExpert. ‘Their analysis tells them that manipulation at the broker level of re-listing does not have a significant effect…on days on market,’ he said. Some local Realtors agreed.”
I don’t understand why the realtors don’t grasp our lack of trust. They are clearly manipulating the data, and yet pretend as if nothing is wrong. I wonder how they would feel if someone backdated some options that would affect the value of the stock in their retirement plans.
Storti’s denial of the manipulation is just typical. He needs to keep his troops upbeat, even though he knows the market is flatlining and ready for a big dive.
Last week I went to an open house of a unit four doors down from where I rent. The DOM on the flyer was 13 days - I know firsthand the place has had a FOR SALE sign on the lawn for over five months.
I don’t understand why the realtors don’t grasp our lack of trust.
If Joe Homebuyer stops trusting realtors, you can send a heartfelt Dear John note to the entire sleazoid “profession”. I hope one of the effects of this bust will be that the average home buyer will recognize realtors for what they are: used house salespeople.
I’m currently following a couple neighborhoods in Northern Virginia and out of the 40-50 listings I’ve followed closely at least half a dozen have been relisted and the DOM reset over the last 2-3 months. I think the DOM being reported isn’t even close to the truth.
As I read these stories about the crazy situation people get themselves into just to have the “American Dream” and it just goes to show you how poisoned they are by the nonstop propaganda they are seeing everywhere about being rich. It all started with Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous, but it has only intensified since. I see so many shows, news articles, etc. and they all promote wealth stories.
It leads people to do crazy things to get their piece of the pie. In the end, their financial destruction is probably what makes the rich even richer.
Awwwww, poor realtors:
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071029/BIZ/710290365
I’m wondering though where the 3,700 knife catchers came from in September, and does that number include hundreds of houses auctioned off.
And the lady driving a Cadillac around Monroe of all places was good for a laugh.
This one was a gem..
“But after thousands of dollars spent on preparation and six months working every angle of the market she could, Covert had sold only one home.
“It was a complete embarrassment,” Covert said of the dilapidated structure a few blocks from her own Dearborn flat that she sold for a mere $4,500. “That was all I could sell. I tried harder at this than anything before in my life and I couldn’t make it work. People don’t believe what a tough business this is.”
Covert was lucky, other agents said. Though she abandoned her dreams of real estate success after a year, she was able to return, albeit reluctantly, to her career in retail. “
‘That’s kind of what has affected us slightly because people can’t sell their homes and move into this market.’”
But what happened to the endless supply of immigrants, rich, newly single, and new buyers that wanted to live there because it was so “unique” ?
Civil disobedience has been lacking for a long time in this country…
“The leading cause of foreclosures are adjustable-rate mortgages adjusting so high that some Marylanders find they can’t make the payments. ‘It’s scary to think what will happen. The ultimate thing that will happen is foreclosure; they will drag me from my house bloody and screaming before I give up,’ said homeowner Ray Dawkins.”
Wouldn’t it be queer for it to finally show up, when push meets shove?
All in good time Aladin…..
Drudge had a guy who committed suicide in his foreclosed house.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5244051.html
What a jerk. It’s just a house. What really gets me nowdays is that people hardly make even a token downpayment, they get some “teaser” rate, and then it’s THEIR house. What a load of crap. It’s your house when you pay it off.
The old folks who lose their house from back taxes I can sympathize with.
Climber: I think this is the civil disobedience Aladinsane is speaking of… with more to come. Just last month in Burma, the people took to the street, led by monks, because energy prices spiked. Think about here at home, a perfect storm of high housing costs, foreclosures, credit card crisis, rising gasoline prices, high heating oil prices, money to mexico, border problems, and anger over the unjust war in the middle east will all combine at once, and the people will take to the streets. Last Saturday, SF had a die in. Soon they will have a “how do you expect me to live? in. Follow the money.
One more thing: I’m getting tired of “the house is yours when you pay it off” tirade. FYI: renting IS a form of ownership. When I purchase a home or car or whatever on my credit card, it is MINE. I own the debt. Why is this so confusing to some people? Even if, as you say, own a home and it’s paid off in full, I can still lose said house to eminent domain.
This may have been posted previously. It’s not getting any better for the FBs if they have to charge for a depreciating home using plastic.
Stressed borrowers use plastic to delay default
http://tinyurl.com/yrlrtx
But as part of her efforts to avoid defaulting on the mortgage, Reeves said she has “maxed out” all her credit cards, spending to the limit on basic needs. “Now all I’m doing is making the minimum monthly payments.”
I think a lot of the population that “celebrates” the spend-fest known as Christmas will try to maintain a front of “everything’s OK” and borrow what they can for one last hurrah before having to walk away from the house. Wouldn’t want the in-laws to think you’re not doing well, would you?
Oh, and I forgot to add, many partygoers asked about the ‘Trees Are Stupid’ sign on my hard hat, so I got to discuss my views on Commissioner Oberquell’s job performance and the local housing market at length. I might wear this costume for forever, all the way past Halloween until Christmas.
Sorry, that post was supposed to go up above, under the first one. My head hurts. Also, I’m out of coffee.
I think the housing market may have been a bubble.
“‘Buyers are on the sidelines waiting for sellers to reduce their prices so they can get better deals,’ he said.’”
no kidding suckers
“‘I’m seeing a significant increase. I’ve never seen it this bad. I’ve been doing it over 30 years,’ said William O’Brien, a Martinsburg, W.Va., attorney who handles such cases in West Virginia and Maryland. The number of resulting bankruptcies is ‘going completely crazy,’ he said.”
i warned a bunch of suckas and they did not listen. They just laughed. LOL! Last Laugh!
“On the positive side, Lawrence Yun, senior economist for the National Association of Realtors, said, ’speculative excesses have been removed from the market, and prices remain near record highs, reflecting favorable mortgage rates and positive job gains.’”
Keep up the shilling Yo Yo yun. Buyers are NOT lsitening! Prices in my bubble area are off at least 20% from the highs. another 20-30% to go. LOL!
“‘It’s horrible what they’re doing to people,’ Ana Rosado said of subprime lenders.”
you should be grateful to have lived in a house as long as you did becasue you probably could not afford it in the first place. Good bye!
“‘More or less, they give me no choice,’ Shumaker said.”
My Gosh! He had PLENTY of choice when he took out this stupid loan. Why do these people want to have their cake and eat it, too?
The thing that I wonder about is how many borrowers were promised that they could refinance if their payments go up ? How anyone could believe the hogwash that was being said during the boom by real estate agents and mortgage agents regarding future financing is alarming .Stupid mistake to believe commissioned salespeople .
The homebuyers/borrowers ARE TO BLAME…PERIOD. Individuals in this country need to start taking responsibility for THEIR problems…and stop blaming it on everyone else. The homebuyers/borrowers signed the paperwork. If they did not understand it, they should’ve said “Stop.”, I need to understand this BEFORE I sign it. If they were too lazy, too greedy, too stupid to do that, then they should suffer the consequences.
And this Lawrence Yun…it’s obvious David Lereah passed on his playbook when he left NAR. Just a bunch of cheerleaders…and I’m a BROKER!
Screaming? Check. Bloody? It can be arranged.
Just saw an interesting piece on PBS’s Nightly Business Report this evening - more and more banks are holding real estate which isn’t selling. The report said that in the next 60-90 days, banks will reprice their real estate stock to get it moving.
If a bank makes a loan of 500,000 dollars, it only needs a fraction of that - the reserve ratio - something like 20% - of actual cash on hand. That’s 100,000 dollars it’s actually loaning out.
So, the bank can still make a profit if the house it takes back only sells for a little over a 100K.
If the credit tightening really locks down, banks and builders could unload their real estate for very heavily slashed prices, and still turn a tidy profit.
The only people who can’t sell for much less are FB’s. And the NAR won’t care too much for significantly lowered prices either.
Volume is still relatively healthy, down to 1999 levels, last I heard. That’s still in the beginning of the bubble. So, I’d think NAR would be fighting price declines still.
NAR and FB’s on one side, lenders and builders on the other?