November 25, 2007

It’s Not A Seller’s Market Anywhere, Anymore

The Great Falls Tribune reports from Montana. “Growth may not be noticeable from inside the city, but get to the edges of Great Falls, and it’s clear to see that the city is slowly creeping outward. Local real estate agent and developer Kyle Haynie is used to hearing that Great Falls isn’t growing, but he thinks that common assertion is easy to disprove. ‘Look at all the new homes,’ he said.”

“There are a lot more spec homes being built now, Haynie said. Eight to 10 years ago, there were usually about two or three going up at a time. Now, many developers will work on three or four at the same time. ‘There’s a lot of spec out there,’ Haynie said. ‘They’re popping. They’re selling. They’re coming out of the ground.’”

“While developers are seeing high demand for the new houses they’re building, no one seems to be able to pin the growth on one particular cause. ‘We must be getting some jobs here somewhere to build all these houses we’ve built,’ said Tom Skovron, of Tom Skovron Builders LLC.”

“More than 150 lots in Foothills Ranch Estate south of Highway 89, have already been approved. Plans call for roughly 900 acres to be developed. That subdivision has been very popular, said Todd Martin, who owns the Foothills project along with Keith Schermele and Nate Hoines.”

“Even before phase III was approved, the developers had deposits on 14 of the lots, Martin said. One spec houses in that development has a price tag of $670,000.”

“‘It’s well above what we anticipated,’ he said. ‘It’s just absolutely phenomenal to be honest with you.’”

From The Bee in Oregon. “As of early October, two Woodstock townhouse-style condos, on the market for many months, remained unsold — having been priced too high, in the view of one local real estate agent. Several blocks away, also in Woodstock, the for-sale sign in front of a single-family bungalow, listed for months, was recently revised to read, ‘Price reduced.’”

“For now, the days of multiple bids by potential buyers competing for houses in Portland are over, says Broker Ron Hackenberg. ‘It’s not a seller’s market anywhere, anymore,’ he adds.”

“Sales are down from last year, Hackenberg says; and, in some neighborhoods, home prices have fallen somewhat. ‘The key is pricing properly. It used to be that sellers would calculate their asking price by looking at sales prices for comparable houses, and then adding 10 percent. However, these days, if sellers try to squeeze every last dollar out of their homes, they might be in for a surprise,’ Hackenberg cautions. ‘I have a listing that has been sitting on the market for a long time. It’s overpriced.’”

“He adds. ‘In places like Hillsboro and Estacada, the market is just dead.’”

“Undoubtedly, on the national level, the housing market has taken a dive. But, according to a report cited by Hackenberg, as of last July Portland’s home prices year-over-year were actually up by 4.5 percent. ‘We have one of the best markets in the country,’ Hackenberg says. ‘Everything else is going south.’”

The Register Guard from Oregon. “Pending and completed home sales in Lane County in October lagged far behind levels for the same month a year ago. But the decline in year-to-year sales wasn’t as steep as it was in September, according to figures released by the Regional MLS in Portland.”

“The real plunge in sales happened in September, when the number of sale agreements dropped by 35 percent from the year before, and closed sales fell by 28 percent. Pending sales were off 27 percent in October compared with a year ago, and completed sales were down 22 percent below 2006 levels.”

“‘All in all, there’s still a down trend, but it’s less than it was in September, and the amount of unsold inventory has improved,’ said John Hoops, outgoing president of the Eugene Association of Realtors. ‘We should all be pretty happy with that.’”

“The real estate markets in places such as California and Arizona, where subprime mortgages and vastly overpriced purchases resulted in a housing crash, have affected the local housing market, Hoops said.”

“‘People in those areas are not selling their homes as quickly as they were a year or two ago, and they’re not getting the elevated prices, so they have less equity to bring up here to make purchases and they have to wait until they sell their homes there,’ he said.”

“In some cases, out-of-state newcomers are renting houses while they wait to sell their homes in more depressed markets, Hoops said.”

The Oregonian. “The U.S. Forest Service is running short of money to draw up new timber sales. The shortfall is related to the national housing slowdown, which has depressed lumber prices about as low as they have ever been, federal and industry officials say.”

“‘We didn’t know this was going to happen,’ said Peggy Kain of the Forest Service’s regional office in Portland. ‘The market hasn’t been this bad in a very long time.’”

“Lumber prices have fallen by nearly half since their last peak in 2004, said Kevin Binam of the Western Wood Products Association. Many Western sawmills are curtailing operations. ‘It’s probably as bad as it’s ever been — maybe worse,’ Binam said.”

“A few Forest Service timber sales have gone without bids, especially sales that required expensive helicopter logging, made even more costly now by higher fuel prices. The agency hopes to revise those sales and put them up for bid again, Kain said.”

“Plummeting rates of new home construction, which consumes about 40 percent of Northwest lumber, depressed demand and prices. It’s unlikely to get much better before 2009, Binam said.

The Bellingham Herald from Washington. “According to two new reports, home values in Whatcom County were 4.3 percent higher than the same time last year. Less than 1 percent of homes purchased in the past year now have negative equity.”

“Gragg Miller of Coldwell Banker Miller-Arnason said he is seeing year-over-year numbers similar to the report. For him, the important factor is what the numbers say for people who bought a home more than a year ago.”

“‘Most homeowners are in a pretty good position if they bought over two years ago. The ones that purchased less than two years ago are still OK if they don’t have to sell,’ Miller said.”

The Columbian from Washington. “Lots of property owners’ holidays got a little gloomier last week as Clark County property assessments arrived in the mailbox. ‘They’re going to force us right out,’ said Patrick Morrison of Washougal.”

“Morrison’s 1,992-square-foot home on Mount Norway jumped in value from $400,090 to $529,700 in one year, the county assessor’s office found. The retired Georgia Pacific worker, who said he lives with his wife on about $34,500 annually, is dreading the tax bill that will arrive early next year.”

“Lots of owners are groaning. Because this year’s housing crash won’t go on government books until next year, the average assessment rose 12 percent, according to the county.”

“Assessment Q & A. I keep hearing about a housing slump. Is that something going on across the country but not in Clark County?”

“No. Clark County’s once-sizzling home market has cooled off substantially. The median price for houses sold in Clark County last month was 7.5 percent lower than what homes sold for in October 2006.”

“Can I appeal my property assessment? The Clark County Board of Equalization received slightly more than 1,400 petitions for the values set in 2006. According to the board’s Web site, more than 50 percent of the property values appealed to the board have resulted in some type of reduction.”

The News Tribune from Washington. “Pierce County’s rate of home sales in the third quarter fell far below the state’s and farther than its Puget Sound-area neighbors, according to the newest numbers from WSU. The figures exclude new construction and condo sales.”

“Sales dropped 32 percent compared to the same quarter in 2006. Statewide sales declined by 11 percent.”

“Pierce County prices, said Glenn Crellin, director of the center, could easily slip into negative territory in the fourth quarter, given the number of homes for sale. ‘That means buyers have a lot more market power. If they’re going to buy, they are going to negotiate aggressively,’ he said.”

The Seattle PI from Washington. “Jamie Goodwin knew it would be a tough time to sell her Central Area townhouse. ‘I’m a real estate attorney, and I knew that the market was soft,’ she said. That’s why she set her asking price at what another townhouse in her development fetched a year earlier.”

“Even so, agents weren’t even looking at the listing online, said agent Erin Goodwin, Jamie’s sister. ‘We listed in October, and I think maybe there’s 23 clicks.’”

“Sitting in a townhouse he was trying to sell last month, Real Estate agent Alex Eckardt said he’d seen a fair amount of traffic since listing the home about a month earlier, but no offers. ‘Six months ago this would have sold in the first week,’ he said.”

“More and more, homes of all types in Seattle are chasing a buyer pool that has become smaller and more cautious over the past year. But real estate agents and sales statistics show that the slowdown in townhouse sales has brought price cuts out of proportion with the rest of the market.”

“‘What we are seeing is these huge price reductions, where a guy’s asking $600,000 one week, then $550,000 the next week and $500,000 the week after that,’ said agent Ryan Thompson.”

“Greg Bartell, (an) agent who specializes in townhouses, says he has seen particular slowing since August. ‘I think the most apparent thing is prices coming down,’ he said. ‘I’ve seen some come down $90,000 off the list” price.’”

“The sales totals have held up better than those for all single-family homes, but have come at the same time as builders have put many new homes onto the market. ‘There’s just so many,’ said Susanne Stauffer, who is Erin Goodwin’s partner. ‘The market’s kind of saturated with them.’”

“The number of lots created through the permit process primarily used for townhouses increased notably between 2004 and 2005, then more than doubled between 2005 and 2006, increasing such lots from 50 percent of all subdivisions to 66 percent.”

“Builders rushed into the swelling townhouse market during the past few years, paying high land prices based on expectations of continued appreciation during construction, Bartell said. Smaller builders responsible for many of Seattle’s new townhouse developments had unrealistic expectations, Thompson said.”

“‘We got caught up in this frenzy,’ he said. ‘Then, when the market began to settle out, their ability to carry these properties was limited due to limited financial resources, so they began dropping prices very quickly.’”

“And many of the new townhouses are nearly identical, making it hard for them to stand out when they hit the market, Thompson said. ‘There was just nothing very special about (them) and the prices were super high. Those prices were first to stagnate.’”




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69 Comments »

Comment by Ben Jones
2007-11-25 11:06:15

There are some familiar trends that have played out in just about every other bubble market here. From the Montana piece, the old ‘it’s the cost of materials’ excuse:

‘But other developers say it’s hard to build anything for less than about $230,000. When Skovron started the Meadowlark addition at least five years ago, houses were selling at about $80 to $85 per square foot. Now prices are “considerably more,” Skovron said. That price increase is simply due to material costs, he said. Copper and plastic have gone up significantly.’

Even though lumber is down 50% or more.

And note the now familiar complaints about higher property taxes now that prices are headed down. You didn’t hear much of that as these markets were balooning.

Comment by aladinsane
2007-11-25 11:17:36

The most valuable thing most of us own is a home, and it’s the easiest way for near broke local and state governments, to continue on life $upport, via ever-rising taxes…

If they don’t get their fix, police forces will feel the pinch, amongst other niceties we’ll miss.

 
Comment by Groundhogday
2007-11-25 11:27:23

“We must be getting some jobs here somewhere to build all these houses we’ve built,’ said Tom Skovron, of Tom Skovron Builders LLC.”

I loved this quote! I guess they don’t have newspapers or the internet in Great Falls, so there is no way to know about speculative home purchases that have fueled overbuilding in so many other markets… like Bozeman, for example, just 2 hours away. A year from now these same guys will be crying about how they can’t sell their inventory.

Comment by Ben Jones
2007-11-25 11:33:44

Right, this report has crash written all over it. I spent the night there once on the way to Alaska. They had ‘casinos’ everywhere, which were just bars with gaming machines in them, as I recall. (Also, worst…Mexican…food…ever!) I saw nothing in the local economy to support $700k houses.

Comment by Vermonter
2007-11-25 11:45:45

Most of the states that border Canada don’t really understand Mexican food. VT had probably the worst Mexican food restaurant I’ve ever been at and yet made it in the local paper as a “best of” restaurant. (Probably because it was the *only* Mexican restaurant for a long time…)

In VT it’s gotten better, but my husband (CO native) and I don’t go out for Mexican

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Comment by Ben Jones
2007-11-25 11:54:23

After I left that place, I seriously wondered if they had ever even eaten MF.

 
Comment by aladinsane
2007-11-25 11:58:07

I had my first overseas Meskin’ food in Sydney, around 1981.

Not bad, not good.

I’ve had Chinese food in about 25 different countries, it varies widely.

My favorite Chinese restaurant is in Vienna, Austria.

About 100 years old, not far from St. Stephens cathedral.

Beautiful Asian-Euro influenced art painted on the walls, Chinese waiters barking out orders in German, pacing around…

 
 
Comment by Groundhogday
2007-11-25 11:52:49

Great Falls has traditionally supported the ag industry to the north (wheat farming) but that has been dying for the past 40 years, and the mining connection withered away even earlier.

Currently, the major economic driver is Malmstrom Air Force base… hardly a high paying employer. Great Falls has dying a slow death for decades.

But the truly amazing thing is that some lender is giving builders money to build large, expensive spec homes in Great Falls and some idiots are apparently buying these homes. The supply of greater fools and even greater fool lenders hasn’t yet dried up, more evidence that we are a long way from the bottom.

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Comment by Cinch
2007-11-25 13:35:15

At least in Bozeman, Montana we have skiing to fall back on. Living as a dirtbag is a pretty cheap life style, where cramming into a house with a bunch of your dirtbag buddies is normal.

Maybe all these expensive houses will be converted into bed and breakfasts, and have fly fishermen as clients. Oh wait, Bozeman has this too, sorry Great Falls.

Cinch

 
 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2007-11-25 11:45:12

You’re a Great Falls, American…

(with no apologies to sean inanity)

 
 
Comment by scdave
2007-11-25 12:02:59

The retired Georgia Pacific worker, who said he lives with his wife on about $34,500 annually, is dreading the tax bill that will arrive early next year. The average assessment rose 12 percent, according to the county ??

And what do they do with the windfall ?? Piss it away on anything they can as fast as they can then, complain about budget problems several years later when assessments drop and want to raise other taxes to offset….As inequitable prop #13 in Cali may be it put a stop to this crap…..

Comment by sm_landlord
2007-11-25 12:52:17

The politicians still don’t get it. Prop 13 happened for a reason. As long as they keep spending like drunken sailors and threatening to cut police, fire, and schools to pay for votes programs that might get them reelected, the citizens will be forced to keep boxing them in. If the tax adjustments don’t happen quickly, expect to see more Prop 13-like initiatives soon.

 
 
Comment by radon
2007-11-25 13:24:00

I spent many years in central montana. Granted I’ve not been there for a while, but my memory of Greatfalls is a glorified strip mall next to an airforce base. We used to drive there to do some shopping twice a year. Most people make minimum wage. This is a town where the best place to eat is chilis.

Oh, did I mention its windy and cold as hell in the winter. The wind blows all the time. We used to get sustained winds in the 70 mph range a couple times a year with gusts up to 90. The funny part is that these knuckeheads that build a house up on a hill in the middle of this wind tunnel will have to replace the missing shingles and broken windows every year.

I went back to see my folks just in time for the chinooks a couple years ago. I should have gotten pictures of the broken highway signs which had been wrapped around the post by the wind. Oldtimers didn’t put their farmhouse there for a reason. If you are building up on some hill with trees that only have branches on one side for the view you will be disappointed. Developers must be crazy.

Don’t get me started on what has happened to Bozeman. It will be worse there because they are far more overbuilt, and the economics are not that much better. I thought nothing could surprise me after living in Katonah for nearly a decade.

Comment by Cinch
2007-11-25 13:47:57

Bozeman economy consists of a hospital and a small university. One can easily argue that these two outfits produced nothing of value to our local economy. Think healthcare and education inflation for the last decade. I honestly believe that they are a drain, however, they do bring in outside money e.g. federal government grants/programs. With the exception of RightNow Technology (database software, think Oracle), Shnee (small local shoe manufacture) and Simms (outdoor gear manufacturer) most of us Bozemanites feed off the government and out of control credit.

Cinch

Comment by Groundhogday
2007-11-25 14:21:35

It has actually been well documented that the Bozeman economic boom is due almost entirely to home building and associated real estate transactions (mortgage banking, realtor fees, etc…). Basically builders, developers, Realtors and mortgage brokers building and selling houses to builders, developers, Realtors and mortgage brokers — as well as to the service industry workers serving food to this group and changing their oil. For the unwind, everything will run in reverse.

The interesting thing will be the impact on MSU. ALL of the senior faculty I knew were counting on home equity to fund their retirement (MSU retirement plan would put Walmart to shame). I’m guessing the university admin will have a hard time getting the “over the hill” gang out the door over the next decade.

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Comment by NotInMontana
2007-11-25 16:53:44

Heh, sounds like Missoula too. Right now a professor is up in arms of an SID for a road improvement. She’s got 10 acres being assessed, but swears she has no plans to develop it.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by John Law
2007-11-25 11:18:19

so much for Seattle is different, huh Mr. Yun?

Comment by Groundhogday
2007-11-25 11:43:13

Notice that Pierce County (Tacoma) is getting hit the hardest? This is playing out JUST like CA with Tacoma serving as the Puget Sound equivalent of the Inland Empire. The poorer markets tank first, then the rot creeps inward.

How can someone like Glenn Crellin, a bright guy with decades of experience studying real estate, not see what is unfolding in the Pacific Northwest? Nothing like a little cognitive dissonance brought on by close ties to the REIC.

Comment by Matt_in_TX
2007-11-25 19:27:15

Washington has its own Inland Empire and it’s on the right side of the state. Tacoma will have to find another nickname to replace the one they don’t like. ;)

Comment by MacAttack
2007-11-26 18:53:17

The Aroma of Tacoma.

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Comment by Ben Jones
2007-11-25 11:52:48

Right, didn’t Yun say just a week or so ago that it’s a ’super-star’ city, like Paris? Shortage of land, blah blah, and now they’re ’saturated?’

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2007-11-25 13:41:19

He sure did, gave SEA “world city” status no less.

 
 
 
Comment by Paul in Jax
2007-11-25 11:26:00

Could be Great Falls is growing to service Alberta. Truckers drive 90 miles down I-15 and catch I-90 to drive from Calgary to Toronto and Montreal. Buy gas for $3 U.S. instead of $4Can and eat for $10 US versus $15 Canadian and exit stage right in Detroit. Others come down and load up at the shopping centers. Hey, house prices are cheap here compared to Alberta with the U.S. $ so low - let’s buy a couple while we’re at it! We can enjoy the balmy Great Falls climate!

Comment by Ben Jones
2007-11-25 11:36:22

And there is nothing but vast plains in between. This is a truly unbelievable story out of GF.

Comment by az_lender
2007-11-25 11:40:34

“GF” - good one.
We should compose a musical called “The GF of GF, in GF” (starts in the key of G, falls flat and ends in F)

Comment by Paul in Jax
2007-11-25 11:53:30

Goodness gracious, Great Falls on fire!

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Comment by aladinsane
2007-11-25 12:03:31

Good one!, Gilbert(az) & Sullivan

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Comment by BottomFisher
2007-11-25 13:19:56

A lot of people break their legs in Great Falls

Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2007-11-25 15:52:03

Or are their legs broken by someone? ;)

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Comment by doug r
2007-11-25 14:55:03

Great Falls is also about a third of the way between Calgary and Las Vegas. When my girlfriend and I drove to Vegas to get married, that and the Salt Lake City area are naturally overnight stops.

 
Comment by pismo clam
2007-11-25 16:53:12

Why don’t they plant palm trees in GF. They sway with the breeze. Put a heater next to them when they’re little. hehehehehehe

 
 
Comment by az_lender
2007-11-25 11:44:24

“Most homeowners are in a pretty good position if they bought more than two years ago” (said a Coldwell Banker shill)

Let’s see, that would be October of 2005. Good position. NOT

Comment by WArenter
2007-11-25 12:26:48

Whatcom county (Bellingham area) inventory numbers from a local Keller Williams RE site (all types of properties):

10/10/2005 2,102
11/5/2007 3,901

Inventory is up quite a bit from the same time 2 years ago, but you know the story, its different here. Nice community, but IMO it cannot support these insane housing prices.

 
Comment by Matt_in_TX
2007-11-25 19:29:19

Maybe its like 2003 in CA.

 
 
Comment by Olympiagal
2007-11-25 11:53:47

( CA and AZ sellers) …’they have less equity to bring up here to make purchases and they have to wait until they sell their homes there,’ he said.”
“Plummeting rates of new home construction, which consumes about 40 percent of Northwest lumber, depressed demand and prices. It’s unlikely to get much better before 2009, Binam said.
‘Clark County’s once-sizzling home market has cooled off substantially. The median price for houses sold in Clark County last month was 7.5 percent lower than what homes sold for in October 2006.”

Hooray! HOORAY! HOooooorrRRAAAAYYYYYYY!
That’s me! Shouting hooray really super loud! Here, I’ll do it again!
HOOORAYYYYY!

Oh, thank you dear Santa and Baby Jeebus and of course, you too, Ben, for such nice Christmas time stories.
You know, there might actually be a wetland, or an aquifer, or a stream, or a forest, left here in Washington state that doesn’t get buried under pavement/houses/strip malls slapped up by slobbering pigmen developers, snuffling and drooling with greed!

Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2007-11-25 14:07:55

OG,

Where do you live? I thought you were in…erm…Olympia.

 
 
Comment by SteveH
2007-11-25 11:55:06

A bit off topic, but why are real estate agents so worried about price drops? It seems to me that they would be happy that prices are dropping, potentially driving up sales when the fence sitters get going. I know that sales are down from historically high levels; that needed to happen. But (at a 6% commission rate), a drop in sales price from $500k to $400k only drops the agents commission (after split, before costs) from $15000 to $12000. Admittedly less money, but one would think agents would be rooting for affordability to get sales going; it’s not like they will be the ones losing money from being underwater. They have had it too easy for too long. I just sold my house to a private party I had contacted before listing with an agency (I excluded them from the listing commission); boy were the agents pissed - and that was in New Zealand where the commissions are 3%. I’m going to be in the US for a bit, but have NO plans to buy.

Comment by Paul in Jax
2007-11-25 12:06:37

Realtors are remarkable for driving looking through the rear-view mirror, even when it’s in their best interest to change - what economists call adaptive expectations as opposed to rational expectations. One problem is that a lot of them are the final bagholders in this mess and are emotionally attached to the market coming back, even though they know it can’t. But they’re starting to come around - pretty soon now the new mantra will be “prices need to come down to clear the market.”

Comment by Neil
2007-11-25 14:00:30

Pretty soon it will be ‘prices need to drop to put Ramen on the table!’

Downside of a commission driven industry; it requires volume to generate income. I really wish Realtors ™ would listen and read price-demand curves. Then they would know stable prices would not be in their best interest.

Got popcorn?
Neil

 
 
Comment by Olympiagal
2007-11-25 12:07:43

Oh, yes, ‘affordability’.
Last legislative session here in WA you should have heard all the realtor/builder lobbyists whining and whimpering to legislators about ‘affordability’. Let me translate, shall I?
Okay.
What ‘affordability’ means, when coming out of developers/realtors mouths is: ‘Let us build anything anywhere we want, with no environmental contraints, minimal public health regulations and no zoning restrictions, so that we can make even more beautiful money, which we will in no way be sharing with the homebuyers.’
Yeah. ‘Affordability’.

I look forward greatly to pointing out the increasing ‘affordability’ in the WA real estate market. I may even tattoo it on my forehead, so no one misses my cheery message.

 
Comment by Ben Jones
2007-11-25 12:19:11

In most markets, they end up leading the charge for lower prices (as a poster here predicted long ago). Part of the problem is many were heavily engaged in speculation. Remember the Las Vegas report recently where the analyst said it was rumored realtors were letting new spec houses go into default?

 
Comment by joe momma
2007-11-25 12:34:35

A lot of realtors were flipping properties - and got caught. They were the closest to the inventory, and they loaded up.

Now they have much lower income and exploding debts. They will say anything to get out from under this monster.

Oh well, back to “would you like fries with that, sir” they go.

Comment by sm_landlord
2007-11-25 12:55:45

You nailed it, Joe. The Realtors were drinking their own Kool-Aid.

Like drug dealers consuming their own inventory, they now have to deal with the collections man.

 
Comment by NotInMontana
2007-11-25 16:58:45

Thank God I’m as lazy as I am, because it crossed my mind many times to get into the business..but the prices already didn’t make sense. And I’m lazy too - did I say that?

 
 
Comment by Tim
2007-11-25 16:49:26

In 2005, the avg days on the market (DOM) in most areas was less than 30 days, now its above 90. In addition, Buyer’s now want to take months looking at houses, and then get cold feet and dont close. Working is such a freaking bitch. What happened to the good ‘ol days where you showed a couple three over priced crap boxes and said you either buy one tonight or you will be forever priced out, and you were actually believed.

 
 
Comment by BobR
2007-11-25 12:00:13

$670,000 for a house in MONTANA? Can you say bubble?

Comment by Groundhogday
2007-11-25 12:15:03

Not just in Montana, but in a gritty, formerly industrial, wind-swept, cold, dying city in Montana.

Comment by Neil
2007-11-25 14:03:51

I’m still disturbed by northwest Arkansas. Yea… Walmark HQ… still scary. I still remember the day I read about that one.

Got popcorn?
Neil

 
 
Comment by Cinch
2007-11-25 13:58:04

this maybe a double post:

We have a house foresale for a cool $1.5mln on less than an acre of land in Bozeman.

http://tinyurl.com/yuc3g7

Cinch

Comment by Groundhogday
2007-11-25 14:34:34

A 6000 sq ft house with every bit of conceivable bling sitting on 1/3 acre in a standard wheat-field subdivision. Idiots abound.

Comment by Vermonter
2007-11-25 15:21:59

You can’t even keep a horse for $1.5 mil that you plunk down.

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Comment by SawItComing
2007-11-25 12:01:14

“‘I’m a real estate attorney, and I knew that the market was soft,’ she said. That’s why she set her asking price at what another townhouse in her development fetched a year earlier.”

This is the best quote of the day. Anybody want to hire this genius to represent you?

Comment by Groundhogday
2007-11-25 12:24:54

Aw come on, she was just shooting for that permanently high plateau the REIC has been telling us about.

Comment by Matt_in_TX
2007-11-25 19:34:37

She tried Plateau pricing too.

 
 
Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2007-11-25 14:00:48

Yeah, I was beginning to think that was a typo putting those two sentences together. Oy.

 
 
Comment by garrison
2007-11-25 12:25:33

What really bothers me is that people say that this is a buyers market. Just because it’s no longer a sellers market, does that mean that it has to be a buyers market???

From my perspective a buyers market is when are prices are under historical valuations, not somewhat below the bubble peak.

Comment by Ben Jones
2007-11-25 12:37:28

‘Just because it’s no longer a sellers market, does that mean that it has to be a buyers market?’

No, the transition stage is known as a renters market.

Comment by sm_landlord
2007-11-25 13:03:19

Great line, Ben!

But as I posted yesterday, there are a lot of bad rental deals out there - FBs who insist that they will only rent for ludicrous prices - because they think they deserve it or something. Even as a renter, you have to keep your wits about you to avoid overpaying.

Since construction materials are getting more reasonable and workers are becoming available, I’m looking to rent a new place while I do some remodeling. But the asking prices I am seeing are completely absurd. I may have to wait a while for reality to set in on the SFH rental market around here.

 
Comment by John Law
2007-11-25 14:09:56

Joshua Tree Market.

JTM.

 
 
Comment by Paul in Jax
2007-11-25 12:37:46

Actually, if what we’re talking about here is making and losing money, when people were saying it was a sellers’ market, it was generally a buyers’ market. Whatever the masses say, always ignore it or do the opposite, and you’ll be fine, and you may even wind up in heaven.

Comment by Vermonter
2007-11-25 15:19:59

It turns out this is true in many areas of life. The “average” person in the US is overweight, broke, and (at least from personal observation), unhappy. Ignoring and/or doing the opposite of the masses is a good general life plan. (Just try to blend in…) ;)

 
 
 
Comment by Cliss
2007-11-25 13:29:47

‘We have one of the best markets in the country,’ Hackenberg says. ‘Everything else is going south.’”
“Thank God, the bubble is bursting but not here”
“Our State is solid”
“We never got caught up in that housing bubble”
“Yeah those fools down in CA what were they thinking”
“Not us”
Selective Crisis.
I think one of the most shocking things to come out of this meltdown is that people are going to discover we’re all in this together. What happens in the other states DOES affect nice little protected enclaves like WA + OR.
Because it’s too big, too massive.
It’s going to affect ALL states all of them. Simply because of the magnitude.
So right now, as homeowners are congratulating themselves on their good fortune and their smart investing decisions, the tide is pulling out leaving everyone high & dry. Except the renters.

 
Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2007-11-25 14:06:24

‘In places like Hillsboro and Estacada, the market is just dead.’

Just like others have mentioned the outliers will get hit first. These are Portland’s outliers. It’s starting to get a little warm in here.

 
Comment by SUGuy
2007-11-25 14:54:40

Little off the topic.

I would like to thank all the very genuine, smart, intellectual and kind people for sharing their thoughts and giving us some suggestions on our housing situation in Syracuse, NY

For your information these are the listings I was talking about. What can we do?

http://www.cnyhomes.com/Listing/Search/info.cgi?mlnum=180912

Taxes on this house are $28,659 Asking price 750,000 has been reduced

http://www.cnyhomes.com/Listing/Search/info.cgi?mlnum=174764
Taxes are about 18K Asking price 570K. The taxes are based on a lower assessed value

http://www.cnyhomes.com/Listing/Search/info.cgi?mlnum=179568
Taxes are 21K asking price is 569K

http://www.cnyhomes.com/Listing/Search/info.cgi?mlnum=183165
Taxes about 20K asking price 550K

http://www.cnyhomes.com/Listing/Search/info.cgi?mlnum=182737
Taxes are 18K asking price 450K

http://www.cnyhomes.com/Listing/Search/info.cgi?mlnum=177748
Taxes 17K asking price 429K

http://www.cnyhomes.com/Listing/Search/info.cgi?mlnum=177967
Taxes 17.5K Asking price 409K

http://www.cnyhomes.com/Listing/Search/info.cgi?mlnum=182773
Taxes about 13K asking price 350K.

All of these homes and many others sit on the market for several years. So if we pay inflated bubble prices then we are stuck with higher taxes for ever.

You can buy land for about $1000 to $2000 per acre. The amish are flocking to this state. The realtors say that we have Equity Nomads moving here from California. Please Cali people keep the riff raff in your state. They are the ones creating our bubble according to the realtwhores.

BTW you can rent a two bedroom, 1 ½ baths, 1100 sq ft penthouse style type of an apartment on a high floor for around $1000 utilities included with heat and air conditioning.

Dairy farms are another cheap buys around here. A well established dairy farm with a few hundred tillable acres or an apple farms can be bought for less 300K.

Comment by ahansen
2007-11-25 22:25:42

Rent the apartment while you renovate the apple farm.

 
Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2007-11-25 22:30:50

Geez, no offense, but I didn’t think you could spend $400K on a house in Syracuse, let alone $750K.

I spent about 6 months in Rochester (’90 ice storm) and considered going to school at SU. Go Orange!

Sorry to hear about the Californians. See also: Oregon.

 
Comment by Otis Wildflower
2007-11-25 23:53:41

So wait, you can rent a decent flat for $12k/year, but if you buy the property taxes ALONE exceed $15k/year?

Methinks this is elementary-school math? Is having a dog _that_ important?

If your job can handle mortgage+tax+utilities+rainy day fund for home repairs within 33% of gross salary, possibly it makes sense. But I’d rent if the rent was lower than property tax…

 
 
Comment by aeyra
2007-11-25 20:52:28

Hahaha…I think it’s funny that Montana has a RE bubble. I think the state economy is maybe $1 million in real life. It’s just steers and strip malls, just like South Dakotastan. Applebee’s is the main employer, and if you bring home a basket of chicken strips and fries, you’re a high roller!

Comment by Seattle_Land
2007-11-25 21:33:54

“…if you bring home a basket of chicken strips and fries, you’re a high roller!” Hey aeyra, being born and raised in Montana, you are talking about my “people” here -and you’re so correct! The blow off of this credit bubble is going to hit Montana hard, really hard. There is a very limited income growth (annual income about 24k per person statewide) possible in Montana now or in the future. Prices will revert back to the mean and the mean is very low.

 
 
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