The Impact Of Increased Supply Is Already Being Felt
The Sun Journal reports from Maine. “Golf course owner Gard Craw is an old hand at reading the green. So, despite the softness in the local housing market, he’s ready to commit upward of $20 million in a new residential subdivision across from his Apple Valley Golf Course. ‘You do it when the times are bad,’ he said, noting that contractors are very competitive when the housing industry slows. ‘Besides, it took me three years to get to the point where I’m at.’”
“When Craw purchased the golf course four years ago, he had hoped to build another nine holes across Pinewoods Road, financed by a smaller residential complex. ‘When I looked at it from a return on investment, the (larger) residential development won out,’ he said.”
“Once the first phase is sold, the next phase will begin. Craw said he knows there are plenty of unsold homes on the market right now, but he’s pretty sure Apple Valley Estates will move.”
“‘You can’t do something conventional,’ he said. ‘There’s too much inventory out there.’”
The Boston Globe from Massachusetts. “The median price for a single-family house in Massachusetts slumped 6.5 percent in October, the biggest percentage decline this year, according to a report on the state’s housing market.”
“The Warren Group said the median house price last month was $290,000, down from $310,000 in October 2006. House sales plunged 17.1 percent, to 3,646 in October compared with a year ago.”
“As for the Massachusetts Association of Realtors, it said the October median selling price for a Bay State condo was $279,950, up 7.3 percent from October 2006, and the volume of Bay State condos sold in October was 1,309 units, down 13.2 percent from October 2006.”
“‘While sales were down last month, it is important to note that year-to-date residential sales activity is off only 2 percent from this time last year,’ Doug Azarian, president of the Massachusetts Association of Realtors, said in a statement. ‘For qualified buyers, this remains a good time to buy.’”
The Wall Street Journal on New York. “Even as the national housing market has been hit by slow sales and falling prices, Manhattan has continued to shine. But now its light may be dimming. Fewer apartments are being sold, 858 went into contract in September, a 9.9% drop from a year ago and the lowest total in two years, according to Corcoran Group, and the inventory of unsold apartments is increasing.”
“Prices The median price of a Manhattan apartment fell 3.4% in the third quarter from the previous one, according to Radar Logic. The firm says properties are sitting on the market longer, too, an average of 123 days, up from 94 days at the peak of the market in 2005.”
“Developers used to seeing yet-to-be-built apartments get snapped up sight-unseen are increasingly offering incentives, from help with closing costs to museum memberships, to jump-start sales. ‘Buyers are more hesitant,’ says Hall Willkie, president of brokerage Brown Harris Stevens.”
“One big factor is how much money New York’s army of financial executives will make this year, given the wild swings on Wall Street. ‘Right now, everyone’s waiting for bonus time,’ says Stephen Kliegerman, executive director of development marketing for brokerage Halstead Property. ‘No one knows what to expect.’”
“In recent months, the continuing strength of its real-estate market has…led many local real-estate professionals to contend that Manhattan is immune to the forces that have battered much of the rest of the country.”
“But few independent experts buy that argument. Christopher Mayer, a Columbia University professor and director of the school’s Paul Milstein Center for Real Estate, says the idea that Manhattan will continue to boom amid a nationwide housing bust is ‘wishful thinking.’”
“‘I certainly don’t think Manhattan is recession-proof,’ Prof. Mayer says. ‘History just says that’s a wrong argument.’”
“Some buyers are already finding bargains. When hedge-fund executive Jerry Lavish and his wife, Stanka, started looking at apartments earlier this fall, they liked a three-bedroom co-op on East 72nd Street, but not its $1,775,000 price tag.”
“Two weeks later, however, the sellers cut the price to $1,575,000, and the Lavishes jumped; they’re expecting to sign a contract today. Mr. Lavish, who says he did extensive online research before making an offer, believes the same property might have gone for $1.9 million a year ago.”
“‘We’re getting this apartment for probably 2004 pricing,’ he says. (The downside: The Lavishes are listing their current apartment for $475,000, nearly 10% below their original asking price.)”
“Sellers and local brokers point to August or September as the start of the shift. Sean Connell and his wife listed their pied-à-terre on East 28th Street for $495,000 in May. They quickly accepted an offer for $480,000, but their co-op board rejected the buyer.”
“By the time the apartment went back on the market in August, the market had changed and the price was too high; earlier this month, the couple cut the price to $450,000. ‘Since the summer, [buyers have] been a little more cautious,’ says their broker, Carlos Saavedra.”
“Supply, however, is increasing. The city approved the building or conversion of 14,748 condo and co-op units in Manhattan in 2006; citywide, such approvals were up 75.8% from 2005. And more are in the pipeline. ‘I would not want to be owning a project that’s coming on the market in the next year or two,’ Prof. Mayer says.”
“The impact of the increased supply is already being felt. A handful of new developments have begun to offer incentives to attract buyers, something nearly unheard of at the height of the boom. Several projects are offering beefed-up commissions, or even gift cards, to brokers who sell units.”
“Blair MacInnes is handling the sale of her 85-year-old mother’s Upper East Side apartment; she listed the two-bedroom co-op in September for $2,095,000, the price recommended by her broker.”
“‘We were very worried about putting the apartment on the market,’ Ms. MacInnes says, ‘but we had been told by any number of people that the exception to the housing crisis had been Manhattan.’”
“The apartment drew little interest, however, and Ms. MacInnes and her mother agreed to cut the price, first to $1,995,000 and then again a few days later to $1,779,000, a total cut of more than 15%.”
“Although the new price has generated more interest but no solid offers, Ms. MacInnes says she and her mother aren’t in a rush to sell. ‘But do we want to wait until the market bounces back?’ she asks. ‘Who knows when that will be?’”
The Times News from Maryland. “The numbers of foreclosures are reaching those of divorce rates. At Allegany County Circuit Court, a civil clerk who is charged with various duties spends nearly 50 percent of her time on them.”
“A court spokesman said he’s seen the number of foreclosures increase over the last five years to the point where attorneys from the metropolitan areas are paying couriers to drive here with paperwork rather than risk sending it through the mail.”
“‘It’s catching up with divorces,’ he said of the foreclosure rate.”
“As the new president of the Historic Highlands Association of REALTORS, Melanie Pratt Dimaio, a real estate agent for 14 years, is well aware of the issue but finds it to be much better here compared to other areas.”
“‘We are very fortunate in our area to only be experiencing a slight increase in foreclosures, mainly in the low- to mid-price ranges,’ she said in a prepared statement. ‘Our local foreclosure rate is not nearly as high as in the rest of the state of Maryland.’”
“‘Local lenders are to be given much of this credit for their conservative lending and appraisal procedures versus Internet lenders who give consumers enough rope to hang themselves with by using over-inflated appraisals from out-of-town appraisers and crazy loan programs,’ she continued.”
“A report issued in October by the Maryland Department of Housing and Community Development, said the ‘growth in mortgage loan delinquency and foreclosures’ actually began in the second quarter of 2005 when the housing boom slowed not only in Maryland, but also across the country.”
“A National Delinquency Survey by the Mortgage Bankers Association found the number of delinquencies in the state reached an all-time high in the second quarter of 2007, which runs from April through June. At 43,980, that’s an increase of 19.8 percent from the first quarter of the year and 30.8 percent more than 2006.”
“Baltimore City along with Prince George’s, Montgomery, Baltimore and Anne Arundel counties have the majority of all foreclosures in Maryland at 75.2 percent.”
“The story is much worse in nearby Washington County, which ranks third in the state for the number of foreclosures. With 125 in the second quarter, that’s a 12,400 percent change from the first part of this year and 6,150 percent change from the second quarter of ‘06.”
From ABC News 7 in Virginia. “One of the communities hardest hit by the foreclosure problem, Prince William county, isn’t just having an impact on those who default on their mortgages, but those trying to sell their homes.”
“After nearly 40 years of memories in a home that is paid off, Larry and Diane Shandor are struggling to sell their house now, because of others in their neighborhood who can’t pay their mortgage.”
“‘How can you compete with a foreclosure home,’ said Larry Shandor. His problem is an unfortunate byproduct of the mortgage crisis; those trying to sell homes in a market flooded with foreclosures.”
“‘This is the worst I’ve ever seen it,’ said Joe Botta from the Prince William County Financial Education Office.”
“New developments in the county continue to bloom. Where sales are soft, homes are still selling.”
“Pable Cava priced his home to compete with the foreclosures and finally sold it after months on the market. ‘I just had to get rid of it. My wife was sick.’”
“The Shandors had to do the same, reduce the selling price of their home. ‘What can you do? It’s just what’s happening right now.’”
Plenty of proof that these artificially high prices continue to fuel overbuilding in this post. Here’s more from New York:
‘Polimeni International is proposing a nine-story, $165 million condominium project on Old Country Road in Mineola. Polimeni has spent years buying up the mostly two-story buildings in the area in preparation for the U-shaped complex called the Winston, which would feature 285 market-rate condos.’
‘With a daytime population of about 35,000, Mineola’s real estate is mostly office, according to Mayor Jack Martins. Martins said the site of the Polimeni plan is ‘an appropriate location for this type of density.’ Because the condos would be surrounded by office buildings, vehicular traffic wouldn’t be an issue, but pedestrian traffic would increase, said the mayor, and enliven a near-dormant downtown. ‘If you bring the people, the retail will come,’ Martins said.’
‘If given the green light, the condos would take about 18 months to complete, Polimeni said, with prices starting at under $500,000.’
which would feature 285 market-rate condos
Help me out here: If they’re planning “market-rate condos”, then who will I go to for my supply of non-market-rate condos?
‘who will I go to for my supply of non-market-rate condos?’
The lenders, REOs.
Good point.
Note from NYC. As in California, the deluge of unsubsidized supply is going to arrive at the same time as a deluge of subsidized “affordable housing,” the the latter a poltiical reaction to the sky high housing prices of the past decade.
I doubt they’ll be market-rate condos. They’ll think they’ll be market rate when they price them, but they won’t sell, hence they won’t be market-rate.
In New York, sometimes developers are allowed to build larger buildings or get tax breaks, etc. if they build “”affordble” housing. Many are “80/20″ buildings = 20% “affordable” to people who are subsidzed and/or pay rent based on income and 80% = whatever the some yuppie will pay
Read in Desert Scum yesterday that there’s a huge new development slated to begin construction here in the old desert. 14 story hotel, condos, timeshares, mixed use retail all around the new Chrysler Classic golf course, right next to the 10 freeway. The rationale is that there will be 1 million people here some time in the future. There are currently around 10K houses for sale out here. In 2004 there were less than 200 as I recall.
I heard the 3 headed hound from hades was having problem paying greens fees, on it?
Rain? aretheycrazy!
Coachella Valley will never allow for a 14 story bldg..unless it is Indian and Indian land..but even then I believe the highest on indian land so far (in Rancho Mirage) is 5 (?) stories.
But what about all the developements by Lennar etc that got sandbagged from completion>
There are over 10k homes available and more to come onto the line shortly here. Less than 200 is correct 2004.
DesertScum does project and Palm Springs Life projects that in 2-5 yrs the desert will be built to max..? Whaa?
Can you say WATER? Water shortage all across the US..and world? Just build more homes.
Flew over valley yesterday to see several subdivs that only had a few homes built and lots of pads.LOTS of pads.
It’s County land
Avanterra, as the overall resort is now called, would begin construction in 2008 and, by the end, include:
A 14-story, H-shaped luxury hotel with 300 rooms, 125 residences/condos, spa and conference rooms. The hotel will appear about 12 stories tall from the freeway because it will be built on a lower level of the golf course. The hotel would also be designed with “dark sky” provisions.
Two five-story office buildings offering up to 230,000 square feet and designed for large-plate offices and corporations looking to tap the newest in Internet fiberoptic technology.
A three-story, 975,000-square-foot retail center with offices and loft housing for the workforce, plus two-subterranean parking levels.
Up to 790 condominiums, some with golf views, in clustered buildings that range from four to eight stories in height.
An entrepreneurial industrial park.
Plenty of proof that these artificially high prices continue to fuel overbuilding in this post.
The Bush administration has a proposal that they are working on to bail out the investor/end users who bought these overpriced/ artificially inflated housing units by freezing the interest rates.
The message I am receiving from the Bush administration is it pays to be greedy and stupid!
Then go out and buy a house right away. Think about it; does that make sense now, in light of anything the government does?
Think about it; does that make sense now, in light of anything the government does?
What it tells me is the Bush administration is just putting a bandaid on a large open wound to delay this mess to fool the public into thinking the republicans are helping. It also looks like they are trying to delay this mess until after the presidential elections.
I found this on Bloomberg which sums it all up:
“There is just no quick fix, including further rate cuts, to stabilize the current weakness in the housing market,” said CreditSights analysts Frank Lee and Sarah Rowin in a Nov. 23 report to clients.
The Bush Administration Freemarket Cronies love to tout the “leave the market alone” adage until they decide it is time to meddle with it. Hypocrites!
“When hedge-fund executive Jerry Lavish and his wife, Stanka…”
His wife’s name is “Stanka”?
HA. That’s what we used to call my dear departed grandfathers choice of coffee. Do they still sell Sanka aka. Stanka?
The instant I read those names I thought it had to be the reporter playing a joke. Regardless, $1,775,000 is a big gamble for someone working in an industry whose financial upside and social prestige have peaked, even if your name is “Lavish.”
At least she wasn’t named Praise.
She better be hot with a name like that.
Stanka Lavish?
Oh, excellent.
It’s a mis-print. Should have been “Skanka”.
“Golf course owner Gard Craw is an old hand at reading the green. So, despite the softness in the local housing market, he’s ready to commit upward of $20 million in a new residential subdivision across from his Apple Valley Golf Course. ‘You do it when the times are bad,’ he said, noting that contractors are very competitive when the housing industry slows. ‘Besides, it took me three years to get to the point where I’m at.’”
Carl Spackler: Cinderella story. Outta nowhere. A former greenskeeper, now, about to become the Masters champion. It looks like a mirac… It’s in the hole! It’s in the hole! It’s in the hole!
I don’t know Gard Craw, nor how old he is or what he’s really like, of course.
But myself, originally from that part of the world, I can tell you that, generally, anyone named “Gard Craw” probably has a bit of the old, crusty, New Englander in them. You may be familiar with the type…
In any case, if someone like that is still willing to build right now, rather than wait a few years - certainly when all signals say “no” - it says one of two things to me.
One is that he must be an old guy and this is his last hurrah; or that maybe he’s playing with OPM.
The other?
That this bubble had, or has, such an incredible hold on people that they just can’t get it out of their system!
Even when their actions make absolutely no financial sense.
Builders build; that’s what they do, that’s who they are.
Elwood: We’re on a mission from God.
Or………..he has so much money, he flat out doesn’t know what to do with it and wants his name on something………
Craw see’s the 4000 unemployed Somilians living in Lewiston as potential cheap groundskeepers and course caddies.
Who is left to pay the gate is beyond me.
Never figured Lewiston/Auburn as a golfer’s paradise.
Lewiston/Auburn
You got me buddy. The summer money does not spend it’s time anywhere near Lewiston/Auburn.That formerly nice, middle-class town has been in a down spiral since the feds parked 5k Somalis there.
Ha. I have played at Apple Valley Golf Course a couple times. My friends and I have gone there looking for a new course that wasn’t expensive and that is exactly what it is. It’s one of those ‘get what you pay for’ type courses made out of an old farm/orchard. I think we paid $10 or $15 for round. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t mind playing these courses as they are good for a change of pace but they are what they are. I’d be shocked to see a caddie there, in fact, I don’t think I have seen a caddie anywhere in Maine and I have played at some of the better courses here. Apple Valley is just a little ways off the River road leading out of Auburn towards Durham. The prices are going to start at $350k for small house near to a little course with $15 greens fees? bwahahaha- good luck with that.
I do like Apple Valley for the fact I had an eagle opportunity there on a 500yd par 5. With a stiff wind at my back and playing downhill, I hit my drive, it hit a rock or something, bounced at least 50 yards more and totalled 350 yards. I felt like Tiger Woods. Of course, I ended up with only a birdie but I will never forget my longest drive ever at Apple Valley. Actually, I can’t help but wonder if the yardages are accurate or if they purposely try to make people feel good and want to come back to their course.
Kudos for the “Caddyshack” reference. I think ol’ Gard’s going to get a gopher stuck in his Craw.
it was easy for him to grin when his ship had come in and he had the stock market beat>>>>>>
Craw: ‘You do it when the times are bad,’ he said, noting that contractors are very competitive when the housing industry slows. ‘Besides, it took me three years to get to the point where I’m at.’”
In principal he is correct. I think the question is better phrased “‘You do it when the market has reached bottom”. We are far from that.
Notice his self delusion; “Once the first phase is sold, the next phase will begin. Craw said he knows there are plenty of unsold homes on the market right now, but he’s pretty sure Apple Valley Estates will move.”
“‘You can’t do something conventional,’ he said. ‘There’s too much inventory out there.’”
So I guess if you do something “un-conventional” you’ll sell houses. How about lowering the price. While that is happening, prices in general are not what they need to be. Mr. Craw seems like he has the money to wait it out.
If the whole economy doesn’t tank, he may be right….in 2015
A perfect example of how these prices contribute to overbuilding. The builders large and small have made no bones about undercutting the existing house market to keep money rolling in, which will only put more keys in the mail and FB in foreclosure. Hey MSM and Washington, it is obvious there is only one solution!
We have a record number of vacant houses, a record number of new finished houses for sale (yesterday) and record amounts in the pipeline. We have builders abandoning entire subdivisions. Record foreclosure rates, etc.
What’s it gonna take for these people to wake up?
Home across from a golf course, my god. It’s Genius ! How totally unconventional ! Next they’ll tell me he’s installing indoor plumbing and that new fangled Tee Vee cable I keep hearing about !
I looked at a home on a Golf Course once, just for fun. It seems like a nuisance! Not just balls in your yard, on your roof, and broken windows, but extra-stringent rules on what can be in your yard so you don’t provide an ugly view for the Golfers. Who wants that?
NEver again on a golf course.. you get no privacy. You get golf balls through your windows. You can never go outside during the day,wknds. Never use that patio that looks so good when you bought it.
The older clubs were planned better. Aunt is at Marrakesh and course if further away from homes + on front side of condo there’s a big private courtyard - it’s not so bad.
And the dials on the sound system go up to 11!
Athough the potential RE investment rewards can be great, so are the risks..as many people are finding out.
Kinda like BETTING against the HOUSE against the HOUSE in Las Vegas ..gambler Craw.
Go for it, today, it ALWAYS makes .. Great Entertaiment
Come on . . . where’ s the Stanka jokes?
Jerry and his wife, Skanky?
I like their last name:
“Lavish”
“Stanka Lavish”
That’s a name…
…that only a stripper’s mother could love
I wonder what her nickname is?
Can we go there? I could have fun with this.
By all means, just keep it civil-ha!
Spanky LaTush?
Stanky does Lavish.
Stanky Lavatory(ish)
Skanka??
I liiike the computer monitors reflecting in his mirrored shades. That’s so hot.
However, I must put aside my consuming attraction. I must reluctantly argue that there’s no way his ‘passions’ include skiing, ice hockey, hiking, and whatever else he said on his site. Nope. This guys looks quite a bit like the spaetzle I made yesterday, all smoothly puffy, pale, and buttery.
Dang gal, I was hoping you’d be more into us flyover country types.
Judging from the attached biography, I think this “Gerald Lavish” is him:
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/1/b35/963
If you hit the link for “my website,” you’ll be transported to the “Lavish Zone,” where you’ll see a you’ve-got-to-be-kidding-me photo of him.
as the diet coke hits the wall behind the monitor . . . .
He looks like he belongs in an Adam Sandler movie.
Good Lord! All it needs is a white background and a profile…
That’s the website of a guy with a computer science degree, yikes it looks like an old tripod page.
Skanky Lush
Gotta love all the online gaming links. I think the mail-order bride comment is right on.
“With a background as an Analyst, Portfolio Manager, Trader and Consultant, this unique perpective provides the depth and breadth of experience needed to successfully wear mirrored shades and appear to have stepped out of an Adam Sandler movie.
Maybe Stanka will dump Lavish and become Stanka Craw.
WHOA! Scary — spitting image of a hacker I know……….
He went to the Groton School. ‘Nuff said. Hate those guys.
I have Irish alzheimer’s (sp?): I forget everything but my grudges.
“Now let me tell you the story of another loser…”
Stanka had to be ordered in over the internet from the USSR. She’s a 5′10″ blond. Jerry probably stands about 5′7″ balding,plump gut, pock marked face, Satlin beard with a 3 caret diamond pinky ring. He favorite hobby is to have Ol’ Stanka spanka him for being a bad boy!
“Jerry probably stands about 5′7″ balding,plump gut, pock marked face”
Bingo..from the photos..fat, balding, pasty,bad teeth, and his bride Skanka, sister of Borat.
Anybody watch The Wire? Remember Stink’em, gunned down by Omar? Maybe this is his sister Stank Ho, crackhead and community mattress.
I love it!!!! How does a company with 10-50 people get a CTO????? I guess that he is the resident GEEK, and needs the ego push? Seems to me that he has histrically been more interested in the position title, not the resposabilities. I would pass up his resume straight into the recycle bin.
Jokes or not, somebody please explain how Mr. and Ms. Lavish can go from a $450K apartment to “jumping” on a $1.5M apartment. Do people really trade up to triple the price?
Yes, it’s a pretty typical Wall St progression:
You starting the analysts’ ghetto - typically a two/three way share for $1K/month each.
If you still have a career after three years, you rent or buy a studio or 1 bedroom. That’s the $450K place mentioned. Your job title is now ‘associate.’
After another 5 years, if the aspirant is still on track, he is now a vice president and probably married (90% of the original analysts have washed out at this point.) If kids are in his future, it’s either New Jersey or a 2-3 BR, 1,500 sq ft apt in Manhattan. That’s $1.5M.
All right, enough on the Stanka jokes. My grandma in-law’s name is Stanka. It is a Slavic name, in her case Bulgarian, not pronounced “stank-uh” as in stank-ho, but “stahn-kah.”
It’s also kind of a quaint name, at least in Bulgaria. Kind of like Gertrude or Florence.
Is her nickname Stinky?
*kidding*
“but he’s pretty sure Apple Valley Estates will move.”
Let’s make a list of all these intelligent economic forecasts in a nutshell…
“pretty sure”, “most likely”, “wait and see”, “wish and pray”…etc.
Got any favorites?
“little bit” . as in, its only a little bit down on price, little bit of a market drop, etc.. Getting to be as cliche’ as snapped up.
legal professionals use the term ” simply & merely ” when they want to try to play the image of innocence, downplay or dismiss bad news.
I miss the term ” oh pshaw ” myself. has that regal old world victorian pipe smoking tweed jackety image of respectablity, sorely lacking in todays upstarts. tut tut, just a bunch of stuff n feathers. word!
The best company name I ever saw , or at least the most informed, was a bass lure start-up named ‘A Fling and a Prayer’.
Brilliant.
“After nearly 40 years of memories in a home that is paid off, Larry and Diane Shandor are struggling to sell their house now, because of others in their neighborhood who can’t pay their mortgage.”
Greedy old farts! Young families don’t want to ruin their memories by being slaves to an overpriced house so you can retire rich. Lower your price!
I can’t be too harsh on the older ones. They’re so used to riding the inflation train that they just can’t fathom it working in reverse.
We’re going off the rails…..that’s the why the choppers are being called in.
“They’re so used to riding the inflation train that they just can’t fathom it working in reverse.”
******
Good point.
There are so many like that here in the Alt-A Bay Area (not that old, many of them in some instances), who have ridden the double-whammy dotcom and follow-on housing bubble gravy train, that they cannot seem to deal with reality.
They have no idea how the policies of the Greenspan Fed has benefitted them particularly until recently, and probably no idea how much they could hurt them in the future.
I’m sure Suzanne researched it and told them what their house is “worth”, and no doubt she told them that under no circumstances should they “give it away”.
So what if they only paid 20K when the bought it. It has to be worth $500K now (or whatever Suzanne told them). Never mind that wages have not increased 25X times since they bought it.
Exactly! Whatever price that they CAN realistically sell the house at is still a lot more than they paid for it. Hearing these people complain makes me want to play the “world’s smallest violin”. It’s a lot more than they could have gotten for it 6 years ago. The problem is that too many people are comparing the current market prices to the insanely inflated prices of 1-2 years ago, not to the reasonable prices of 6-8 years ago. How about looking at the glass being half full?
Why didn’t they put it on the market 3 yrs ago, why now? why didnt’ they rent till the “career” was over and then move to FL or wherever?
Indoctrination, programming.
My favorite, however, was this gem…‘How can you compete with a foreclosure home?’
So, after 40 years, the house is all paid off, huh? How much was it originally purchased for 40 years ago? As a current resident in DC Metro, assuming their home is a POS postwar ranch that still has the original avocado kitchen appliances, I would have to bet that they think they are entitled to at least 700K.
To answer their question- seeing that you bought 40 years ago, you should have lots of room to lower the price.
Got too greedy! They could have sold two years ago!
Gotta pipe in from the other side. That was the deal for the old folks, work your job, pay off your mortgage, raise your kids then retire to a smaller place, probably in a warmer climate. They did their part. It’s not really their fault that all the rules of the game changed and all the money grubbers screwed everyone with the financial shenanigans. Old folks that paid off their houses are not really the problem - don’t be distracted by the man behind the curtain. Central Bank, Fed, Government, Housing and Mortgage industry, exotic loans, hedge funds, MBS, CDOs - keep focused folks on the real bad guys, please.
No one blamed them for the situation. They instead rightfully blamed them for insisting they have a right to take advantage of it at the expense of other ppl.
One more thing - just because your post bothered me so much. It talks about it being the “deal” that they get to pay off their mortgage and retire. Don’t you realize that by insisting on insane prices young people buying today now will never be able to pay off their house and retire? What about their deal? This is especially important since companies no longer provide a pension and fire ppl at a whim.
What part pisses you off - the fact that the same bad guys I name changed the system? Or the fact that I used the word deal? Or the fact that they younger ones are so stupid they would be willing to buy into the current system? Most of the olders didn’t buy houses right away and actually did what everyone here proposes - rented, saved for a down payment, bought a house they could afford, paid their mortgage no matter what it took and generally did was expected of them at that time.
The fact that they think they are being cheated or their house is being stolen from them if they lower their price to a reasonable level. As far as the bubble, everyone that created, or felt entitled to windfalls from it pisses me off. It will have far reaching effects on everyone, including the innocent as it bursts. Those things you mentioned are not what anyone is commenting on. If everyone did that the last five years, we wouldnt be in this mess. Ppl are commenting on that couple’s whining about not getting top dollar. Also I do not encourge anyone to buy right now. Unfortunately, ppl some ppl had kids and felt they needed a house the last few years, and believed the never ending rants of realtors, “buy now or be forever priced out, etc.” I would have not made the decision to buy, but for those that had their retirements funded by young ppl that are not as sharp as I am, I have no sympathy. If you want money: WORK. A HUGE WINDFALL ON YOUR HOME SHOULD NOT BE AN EXPECTATION.
Amen.
Man behind the screen.
Yes, the rules changed. Had the rules stayed the same, they would have never had had the expectation of inflated prices. They’d be happy to sell their payed-off ranch in Manassas for $300k.
Instead, the last few years have inflated their expectations. At one point, $300k would have been fine and dandy. If you would have asked them 7 years ago if they thought that $300k would seem like a reasonable price in 2007, they would have said ’sure.’ But now, they’re expecting $800k.
Of course, their place isn’t worth $800k, and neither was their foreclosed neighbors’. Heck, if they’re living in a 40-year-old ranch way out in Manassas, their place probably is worth closer to $200-$250k.
That was the deal for the old folks, work your job, pay off your mortgage, raise your kids then retire to a smaller place, probably in a warmer climate. They did their part.
So what’s the problem? Sure they’ll sell their house for 20% below peak prices, but the condo they’ll move into will be also be cheaper.
Not to mention the fact that they’re in Prince William County, the land of zillion-mile commutes and trashy neighbors. Historically, people have bought there because (a) it’s cheap, and (b) it’s cheap. If it’s not cheap, no one will buy the Shandors’ little slice of heaven.
Yep, parts of Prince William are a shocker. I remember when I first moved here I took a trip to Ikea, and my trip took me through Manassas.
Woah. It’s our own little slice of 1930’s Appalachia right here in the DC metro.
What I want to know is, why do they want to sell their house?
Would you take a look at Mr. Unconventional…
Who ever thought of building the 1st phase, and then the next phase?
“Once the first phase is sold, the next phase will begin. Craw said he knows there are plenty of unsold homes on the market right now, but he’s pretty sure Apple Valley Estates will move.”
“‘You can’t do something conventional,’ he said. ‘There’s too much inventory out there.’”
It is rather unconventional these days. I see many nice carts sitting idle with nary a horse to be seen.
http://www.mercurynews.com/politics/ci_7598163?nclick_check=1
“We can’t rewrite these contracts. It will be through cajoling, shame and persuasion.”
Assuming that crooks like Mozzillo have any ability to feel shame is a big stretch.
FDR had no problems with contracts when he invalidated all gold clauses at the stroke of a pen. The Supremely mallable court (probably suffering from strokes) then agreed that contracts really only mean what the government wants them to mean.
It will be through cajoling, shame and persuasion.
Seems to me their planned shame campaign will be targeting the wrong people. How about shaming those idiots that bought into something that, in the end, they couldn’t really afford?
it’s all good
http://www.minyanville.com/articles/index/a/15051
I watch LIBOR everyday. It has not participated in the FED induced return of the punch bowl…
LIBOR?
I need a dictionary on acronyms..
help..
It’s the taxable index rate as to which most ARMs are tied to.
London Inter-Bank Offered Rate. In essence, it’s the fed funds rate (or overnight interest rate between banks) for dollars which are on deposit in non-U.S. banks (”Eurodollars”).
London Inter-Bank Offered Rate
It’s the short-term rates that banks charge each other for cash. Historically LIBOR is pretty close to the Fed Funds (”Fed”) rate, but recently LIBOR is much higher (about half a percentage point) than the Fed Funds.
London Inter-Bank Offering Rate. It’s the rate at which very big banks lend money to each other from overnight to 1-year. There’s a LIBOR market in US dollar, Aussie dollar, Euro, Swiss franc, UK pound, and Yen denominated loans.
http://www.mecklai.com/mecklai/newweb/MarketRiskAdvisory/CommercialRates.asp#libor
I believe that most US ARMs are keyed off either the 6-month or 1-year US dollar rate. Currently, the 6-month is 4.91% and the 1-year is 4.49%. With the typical spread of 175 basis points that means that an ARM loan will now adjust to 6.66% or 6.24%. By the way, that 175 basis point spread is for prime borrowers. Loans for weaker borrowers have a larger spread.
“But few independent experts buy that argument. Christopher Mayer, a Columbia University professor and director of the school’s Paul Milstein Center for Real Estate, says the idea that Manhattan will continue to boom amid a nationwide housing bust is ‘wishful thinking.’”
“‘I certainly don’t think Manhattan is recession-proof,’ Prof. Mayer says. ‘History just says that’s a wrong argument.’”
Perhaps Manhattans are unaware of the transfer of wealth, taking place?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvnvYiEsN6Q&feature=related
It is so bad here in PWC VA that I keep see prices fall that already in foreclosure and Bank owned property. I sent Ben a small snippet of what is going on in the city of Manassas Park, VA. things are getting uglier by the day.
Manhattan will take a bath. I wouldn’t be surprised if you see 40 - 70% declines in that place.
Lived in NYC both times the econ was in the tank..70s and late 80-early90s.. RE indeed was much cheaper. When is the key?
I was offered a basic 9-unit walk-up apartment building on W. 16th St. between 7th and 8th Ave. near the Cafe Riazor (where I lived and paid $400/mo.) for $225K in Spring of 1982. Hard to imagine, but it’s true - and only 25 years ago - $25K/unit with about a 60-65 X rental, which was not considered overly cheap given where interest rates were. This was when things looked the bleakest - back-to-back recessions, interest rates in the mid-teens, no returns on stocks for 10 years, and before the gays and their money crossed 14th St. en masse and took over Chelsea via 8th Ave. Back then, east side of 8th Ave. between 14th and 16th was the center of a numbers and fencing operation, with a few Spanish-Chinese restaurants, and there were laundries and fish markets between 16th and 17th, where the Starbucks is now.
I didn’t do it and it was a mistake - I even had an English guy who was willing to go in on it with me. I didn’t want to fcvk with it - just wanted to get away from NY and back to VA.
Paul,
Friend who’s an ass’t art director at Newsweek lives on 16th, in a loft on that block–her husband bought it around 80-81. Went to her reception there around 84–that block was just sleazy, ugly. Not dangerous, like the old Avenue C/D–just butt ugly. Always figured Larry got it cheap, but working from your numbers, man he got it for pocket change.
“After nearly 40 years of memories in a home that is paid off, Larry and Diane Shandor are struggling to sell their house now, because of others in their neighborhood who can’t pay their mortgage.”
“‘How can you compete with a foreclosure home,’ said Larry Shandor. His problem is an unfortunate byproduct of the mortgage crisis; those trying to sell homes in a market flooded with foreclosures.”
Actually the Larrys of the world have the most room to negotiate, and will be responsible for the comps going ever lower, because they played the game of “Procrastination Nation” too well.
I can’t imagine that if he priced the home at what he paid for it 40-years-ago + inflation, he’d sell it very quickly.
I guess he had it in his mind that he was a “millionaire” and now his mental bubble has burst.
What do y’all make of this?
http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/071130/usa_subprime_treasury.html?.v=2
Mortgage industry representatives want to limit mortgage relief to borrowers who have a proven record of making payments under the initial rates.
That should narrow the field some.
“Mortgage industry representatives want to limit mortgage relief to borrowers who have a proven record of making payments under the initial rates.
That should narrow the field some.”
How about limiting mortgage relief to those who didn’t commit FRAUD on their mortgage applications. That would narrow it to a trickle.
Yes and if they take out 2nd homeowners, flippers, speculators, refies and HELOCs, people that lied about primary residency or income on their applications, how many will be left to freeze?
lol
Mercy is the cruelest of all the virtues.
You get the feeling, SH*&t is going to hit the fan soon. Desperate measure like this is a huge sign that the economy is heading down in the worst way.
How can they freeze rates when these loans were literally broken up like sand and spread across everyewhere? This is all talk to ease the markets. How are banks going to make money now? Didn’t they bake the interests revenues into their balance sheets. It’s going to get worse….
He he. Yes, banks have been reporting FUTURE interest payments as CURRENT income!! He he. Just wait. Not only will they suffer loss of interest, but they’ll probably never get more than 80% of the Principal back.
At just over 40 years of age, I have about 30 years of productive working ahead of me, I can overcome these jerks. I’m guessing people my age will end up with our parents living with us soon enough.
At this point health is worth way more than savings. Not only don’t I expect to get much from the SS socialists I don’t expect to get much back from my savings or investments either. It’s a racket.
I knew they would do this, I just knew it.
The real sad part is that it is going to doom some homeowners (who believe that the government is “helping” them) to be paying on a mortgage in excess of the value of their home.
This is nothing but a bailout for the banks and investment houses dressed up as help for homeowners….what a scam…
“After nearly 40 years of memories in a home that is paid off, Larry and Diane Shandor are struggling to sell their house now, because of others in their neighborhood who can’t pay their mortgage.”
If the home is paid off, why set list it a realistic price? The real estate market is great and there are plenty of waiting buyers, including myself. The real issue is that people want 50% or more than there house is worth. List it at ‘99 prices and it will sell. Not very complicated.
They don’t like the WSJ article on Manhattan over on Curbed. Take a read at this thread http://curbed.com/archives/2007/11/30/wsj_manhattan_markets_light_may_be_dimming.php to witness the mentality of the remaining real estate bulls.
Good thing they’re taking the dawning new reality in stride over there. At least they had some fun with Stanka, too!
From WP discussion,
I’m a 36-year-old single mother of three, I own a 20-year-old ranch house on a dusty, garbage-strewn acre. I earn $34,000 a year managing flower sales at a food store and selling clothes on the side. I bought my house in 2005 for $385,000. By taking out a first and second mortgage, I was able to buy it for no money down.
At first, my ex-boyfriend helped make mortgage payments, but his construction jobs dried up. I have not paid anything for months on the $76,426 second mortgage serviced by Citigroup, and I have also fallen behind on my $308,000 first mortgage, serviced by a unit of Bear Stearns Cos.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2007/11/14/DI2007111402040.html
Wow. Just wow.
Of course, this lady didn’t really “buy” anything except heartbreak and crushing debt.
“Some buyers are already finding bargains. When hedge-fund executive Jerry Lavish and his wife, Stanka, started looking at apartments earlier this fall, they liked a three-bedroom co-op on East 72nd Street, but not its $1,775,000 price tag.”
“Two weeks later, however, the sellers cut the price to $1,575,000, and the Lavishes jumped; they’re expecting to sign a contract today. Mr. Lavish, who says he did extensive online research before making an offer, believes the same property might have gone for $1.9 million a year ago.”
Looks like even hedge-fund executives are knife-catchers.