December 9, 2007

The Market Has Gone Back To 2004 And 2003 Prices

The Sun Herald reports from Florida. “As Will Rogers once said, ‘In a real estate man’s eye, the most expensive part of the city is where he has a house to sell.’ The last couple of years have chastened even the most resolute espousers of that belief, however, as real estate prices have plummeted virtually everywhere. Nathan Tracy II, broker in Englewood, acknowledged there are a lot of midpriced homes languishing unsold in the Englewood housing market.”

“‘Part of that problem is there’s not a big discrepancy in price versus what you’re getting,’ he said. ‘Why pay $150,000 for a 1970s two-bedroom, two-bathroom house when you can pay $200,000 and get a brand new, three-bedroom, two bath house in East Englewood?’”

“North Port’s picture appears a bit dimmer, according to Tony Gustitus of Century 21 Almar Associates. ‘Last year, sales were off maybe 1 percent. We held our own all the way through the year. This year, we’re running out of ways to skew the numbers,’ Gustitus admitted.”

“North Port sells about 1,100 homes a year, Gustitus added, which is how the market has been for the last three to four years. ‘But it bothers me to say we’re down to 651 sales as of Nov. 8, year to date,’ he said. ‘We’re probably going to be off by around 40 percent this year.’”

The News Press from Florida. “Jack and Cindy Claus are trying to sell their five-bedroom, three-bath house in Gateway for $429,000. The bad news is they have plenty of competition as the real estate bubble deflates from 2005’s record-setting prices.”

“The Lee County Property Appraiser lists the value of their home at $349,900. Time may not be on their side, said real estate agent Jen Buffington. ‘Like all agents, I don’t want to be negative, we want to be positive as much as we can, but the truth remains, I can’t change that,’ Buffington said. ‘It’s still a declining market. And you know, I don’t see the bottom of the market anytime soon.’”

“Prices in Lee County peaked at $322,300 in December 2005. By October, the last month available, the price had fallen 26 percent to $239,300, according to the Florida Association of Realtors.”

“‘There is not one listing I have that anyone will walk away with any money on,’ she said. ‘They’ll break even or have to bring money to the table or it’s a short sale.’”

“‘I have a few hundred homes in the Gateway community that I take care of,’ said said Gateway resident Michael Hertog, owner of (a) landscaping company. ‘I guess I am for the first time starting to feel a little bit of the effect of the economy or real estate building falling apart.’”

“For example, he said, ‘I have several homes falling into foreclosure in the past month. I haven’t gotten payment.’ Also, he said, people who are still paying him are cutting back to bare essentials.”

“‘A lot of the properties are rental properties. I’m seeing the renters just disappearing and not paying their bills. Homes that are empty, not getting taken care of. I’m the last one that ever gets paid. I would respect them much more if they’d say, ‘I can’t afford your services anymore,’ he said.”

The St Petersburg Times from Florida. “No matter where you look in the Tampa Bay area, you’re sure to find them: Houses that have been on the market so long two hurricane seasons have come and gone. So long that babies have been conceived and born - and started walking.”

“So long that the ‘for sale’ sign seems a permanent part of the landscaping.”

“‘Price is the most important factor by far,’ says Poul Hornsleth, owner of a Gulfport real estate agency. ‘You can start high but it will turn into a stale listing, and you don’t want to get a stale listing.’”

“‘People need to understand that the market has gone back to 2004 and 2003 prices,’ says Bob Memoli, a Pasco County real estate agent. ‘If you don’t price that way, it’s just not going to move.’”

“On Sept. 7, Memoli listed a three-bedroom, two-bath house in New Port Richey for $199,900. Less than three weeks later, the seller had a contract, largely because she agreed to drop the price slightly and pick up part of the buyer’s closing costs.”

“‘She said, ‘I don’t want to leave this on the market six or nine months. I want to get on with my life,’ Memoli recalls. ‘She was realistic.’”

“It also helped that the woman, a retiree planning to downsize, had paid $125,000 for the house several years ago and had substantial equity.”

The Sun Sentinel from Florida. “What a good time it is in South Florida for renters. Rent is falling and renters have their pick of places to live.”

“An accidental landlord last year would have been called a real estate investor. But now that there are so few home buyers, many investors are renting their homes. The apartment rental professionals say the accidental landlords are a pretty aggressive group, too.”

“‘They’re competing with the [apartment] complexes even if it means they only get 50 percent of what it costs them to own that unit,’ said Jack McCabe of McCabe Research and Consulting, a Deerfield Beach firm that specializes in apartment market research. ‘You can rent a $325,000 or $400,000 house for $1,800.’”

“By comparison, the monthly payment — principal and interest, plus estimated taxes and insurance — on a $300,000, 30-year mortgage at 6 percent, would cost you $2,526.”

“‘In Boca and Wellington, the pressure is coming from investors who couldn’t sell single-family homes,’ said Cris Sullivan, senior VP of Gables Residential, which manages more than 5,000 apartment units in South Florida.”

“In fact, many complexes are offering freebies such as a month’s free rent. Add it up and overall, the cost of renting an apartment in South Florida is falling.”

“Rents in Fort Lauderdale in the third quarter of this year are down by 2.2 percent compared with last year. In Palm Beach County, the decline is 7.8 percent. ‘In a lot of the overbuilt markets, it’s better to be a renter than an owner,’ said Axiometrics President Ron Johnsey.”

“McCabe says he thinks renting is a ‘no-brainer,’ because rents are being held down by the market.”

“But that may not last. And building equity in a home will. ‘I think the issues are the same,’ said Certified Financial Planner Benjamin Tobias in Plantation. ‘Whether prices are high or low, you’re better off buying than renting.’”

The Press Register from Alabama. “Broker Randy Brooks said he never thought he’d see a house in foreclosure on Ono Island, but he’s got one listed in the mid-$600,000s. ‘The owner bought it for $895,000 in early 2005,’ he said. ‘And he was a Realtor who had to move out of state to make a living.’”

“Several of his clients expect to be ‘inundated’ with foreclosures after the first of the year, he said.”

“As of Nov. 20, there were at least 409 houses in the foreclosure filings, according to Jonathan Keith, an associate broker in Mobile who tracks the latest figures. About 25 to 30 percent of the 409 will actually go to foreclosure sale, he said.”

“‘That’s still a lot,’ he added. ‘It used to be 10 percent. But there are not as many investors willing to speculate or take as many risks.’”

“‘We’re not a hot spot,’ for foreclosures, said Lynn Sedberry of REMAX Advantage in Spanish Fort. ‘But we are seeing them where we never had them before, like Gulf Shores, Orange Beach and Foley. It’s the investment and resort home buyers. And a lot of them aren’t local.’”

“Brooks is working with more high-end homes in foreclosure than ever before, he said. One individual ‘bought a house on Bon Secour River for $922,000 in May 2005 and tried to flip it for $1.2 million. Then Hurricane Katrina hit.’ The house wasn’t damaged, but couldn’t be flipped, he said. ‘Now it’s on the market for $650,000.’”

“Condominium units in foreclosure are competing for buyers along with the almost 3,000 units listed for sale on the MLS. Prices have dropped considerably since the buying frenzy of 2004 and 2005.”

“For example, Brooks has a number of foreclosure condo units in Gulf Shores Plantation on Fort Morgan that sold for $370,000 two years ago, and today he has them listed for $145,000, he said.”

“‘I think we’ll continue to see this level of foreclosures for the next 12 months,’ Keith predicted. ‘After Katrina we had a such a push, roughly 12 to 20 percent in appreciation and a surge of high prices,’ he said. ‘Now folks can’t get those prices when they sell their home. The inventory has increased and sales have flattened.’”

“‘The last six months has been the slowest I’ve seen in my 40 years in this industry,’ said Ken Cramton, regional VP of HMC, Home Mortgage Co., in Fairhope. ‘There’s nothing under $250,000 in sale prices on the Eastern Shore and that has hurt activity. There are a few sales of homes in the $130s to $180s, but not many.’”

“Many homeowners facing foreclosure are in denial and don’t think they will lose their homes, Realtors said. Brooks said he has been dealing with a homeowner in a west Mobile subdivision who hasn’t made a mortgage payment since November 2004, but has filed lawsuits in an attempt to stay in the house.”

“‘All you can do is work with them,’ he said.”

The Daily Journal from Mississippi. “Just a year ago, machines and workmen seemed to be flattening every available square foot of ground around Oxford for new buildings. The most notable were condominium apartments slated for construction near the Square.”

“Lately, the hot real estate market in a growing college town has seen some cooling.”

“‘Oxford really experienced a housing boom over the last three years, especially, and now all of a sudden things have really slowed down,’ said Christy Knapp, VPof the Oxford-Lafayette County Economic Development Foundation. ‘I think that’s part of a national trend.’”

“‘Oxford’s market is softer than it was at the peak,’ said Harry Alexander, president of the North Central Mississippi Board of Realtors, ‘but…those years were the best years we’d ever had in history.’”

“One of the chilliest segments of Oxford’s market lately has been condominiums, which for a while were hot property for out-of-towners looking for a weekend getaway, parents whose children attend Ole Miss and, in some parts, students themselves.”

“‘When they started turning all these apartment complexes into condominiums, it kind of flooded the market,’ said Larry Butts, a real estate broker and developer. ‘I doubt if you’ll see anything more going up around the Square, at least until the economy turns around.’”

“The new optimism that has come with Ole Miss’ change of football coaches may help. ‘Whenever Ole Miss has an exciting, winning season or there is a lot of hope (about) an upcoming winning season, it has an impact on not only tourism … but also on the real estate market,’ Knapp said.”

“Alexander agreed. ‘I think with a rekindling of hope for the future on the football side of things, that will give that side of the market an uptick,’ he said. ‘How much? We’ll have to wait and see.’”

“‘People are shopping by comparison, so sellers are having to reduce their houses,’ said Tupelo real estate agent Brenda Estes. ‘We’ve got 1,290 houses on the market, and that’s a lot for the Northeast Mississippi area. Last year was 591 houses at this time.’”




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109 Comments »

Comment by Ben Jones
2007-12-09 07:07:28

‘Why pay $150,000 for a 1970s two-bedroom, two-bathroom house when you can pay $200,000 and get a brand new, three-bedroom, two bath house in East Englewood? Broker Randy Brooks said he never thought he’d see a house in foreclosure on Ono Island, but he’s got one listed in the mid-$600,000s. ‘The owner bought it for $895,000 in early 2005.’

Why indeed, and more proof that the new home and foreclosure market is the only real market. BTW, main-stream media, aren’t the repeated trends of condo speculation and massive price reductions in every little corner of this country irrefutable proof of a housing bubble?

Comment by palmetto
2007-12-09 07:18:47

‘Why pay $150,000 for a 1970s two-bedroom, two-bathroom house when you can pay $200,000 and get a brand new, three-bedroom, two bath house in East Englewood?”

For most people, I guess there’s a sort of logic in that, but me, I’d prefer the 1970s home for a number of reasons. One, I’d pay less. Two, it’s a tried and true structure that has probably stood up to Florida weather. I have my doubts about some of these “newer” homes. Three, it most likely is in a traditional neighborhood and not a HOA.

I’m just sayin’….

Comment by flatffplan
2007-12-09 07:48:17

east of rt 75 is gomerville
wow, ever get out at Zepher Hills or on of the inland swamp towns ?
=scary

Comment by palmetto
2007-12-09 08:05:52

Yes, I’ve been up in Zephyrhills and the Dade City area (Pasco, east of 75) a number of times and had thought about moving there, prices up there for the older stuff are just about at 2000 prices in some cases. It didn’t used to be too bad up there, but there was a story on the local news last night about gun thefts in the Dade City area. There was a story on the news also about a high school gang rumble between African American and Hispanic students in Lakeland, Polk County. The natives are getting VERY restless. I used to think I wanted to be in one of those old Florida towns not too far from Tampa or Orlando, but my brief stay in Sanford, Florida disabused me of that notion. I was even going to look at some property on a sort of casual basis up in Dade City, but last night’s story on the news made me think twice. So much of Florida has been badly de-stabilized by the bubble.

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Comment by flatffplan
2007-12-09 08:37:17

Island of Venice is cool

 
Comment by Bob of Rhode Island
2007-12-09 08:59:16

Yes Venice is nice, but the prices are outrageous. I remember talking to the real estate guy on that shack as you reach the peninsula about 2 years ago. I said I’ll be back after the crash, he just laughed.

 
Comment by Bill in Carolina
2007-12-09 19:11:11

Venice? Talk about God’s waiting room.

 
 
 
Comment by Tim
2007-12-09 08:27:49

I would much rather have a 1970’s retro house with a large yard and mature landscaping than a snythetic stucco crap box crammed into the back of the neighbor’s house and built by illegal immigrants with no training, but I have always been different.

Comment by Tim
2007-12-09 08:47:15

Sorry for the multi-posts. Huge time delays this morning.

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Comment by Ann
2007-12-09 08:52:22

Being previously from Fl you don’t want the 1970 house. Reason being that between 1968-1992(Hurricane Andrew) the building codes were not up to par for hurricanes on those built home(evident by the amount of damage done by Andrew and examination by inspectors of those homes). This is evident that the same square footage house of a new home vs. older home will be a huge difference in insurance cost. A home pre Andrew will cost alot more in windstorm insurance than a newer home built up to current hurricane standards. If you want to buy a older home it would have to be up to the year of around 1964.

Comment by Tim
2007-12-09 09:05:17

Never living in a hurricane zone, I did not consider that.

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Comment by palmetto
2007-12-09 09:45:06

“If you want to buy a older home it would have to be up to the year of around 1964″

That’d be OK with me. The house I sold at the top of the bubble was 1970s, but it was built by a Midwestern farmer who knew what he was doing. So it would depend on who built the house. Just like now. Heck, we haven’t even had a hurricane and recently built homes are already deteriorating, so what good are the codes if people don’t follow them?

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Comment by Tim
2007-12-09 08:45:38

I’ve always been odd, but give me a well-built retro house in a quiet neighborhood with mature landscaping and a large lot over a new synthetic stucco cht box with granite counters and a wall of windows looking into the neighbor’s bathroom any day.

Comment by auger-inn
2007-12-09 09:12:03

Are you saying you don’t want a “fat chick on a barstool”? :)

Comment by Tim
2007-12-09 09:28:19

I actually did live in a house that overlooked the neighbors bathroom. She never closed the blinds. There is a very small percentage of ppl that look better naked.

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Comment by auger-inn
2007-12-09 09:44:49

The “fat chick on a barstool” is the new blogger speak for a large house on a zero lot line. Thus giving the appearance of the aforementioned chick! :)

 
Comment by Tim
2007-12-09 09:55:17

In your definition one gets to retain one their sight and sanity. I had no such luck.

 
Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2007-12-09 10:06:37

I guess it depends on your perspective.

I always thought those houses looked like one of those beer guzzling, belly scratching, crack showing fat dude on a bar stool. :)

 
Comment by oxide
2007-12-09 10:17:37

Why is it always the chick that has to be fat? As if fat men look any better?

And barstools must be a miracle of engineering to support the men without collapsing.

 
Comment by auger-inn
2007-12-09 12:00:36

No need to shoot the messenger. I’m just reporting the new slang (and I agree, fat men on barstools are way more offensive). Having been a late night bar rat with beer goggles on (once or twice) in a previous life, I’m very familiar and accepting of fat chicks on barstools. In fact they have, on occasion, saved me from having to sleep on the beach- god bless them. :)

 
Comment by AndyInJersey
2007-12-10 08:11:20

“Why is it always the chick that has to be fat? As if fat men look any better?

And barstools must be a miracle of engineering to support the men without collapsing.”

Maybe because a straight-white male coined the phrase and that was his frame of reference for something he finds visually offensive … a fat chick on a barstool.

If you want a more PC term, coin the phrase first yourself using “fat guy”. Good luck with that.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2007-12-09 07:14:03

“Jack and Cindy Claus are trying to sell their five-bedroom, three-bath house in Gateway for $429,000. The bad news is they have plenty of competition as the real estate bubble deflates from 2005’s record-setting prices.”

“The Lee County Property Appraiser lists the value of their home at $349,900. Time may not be on their side, said real estate agent Jen Buffington. ‘Like all agents, I don’t want to be negative, we want to be positive as much as we can, but the truth remains, I can’t change that,’ Buffington said. ‘It’s still a declining market. And you know, I don’t see the bottom of the market anytime soon.’”

You better watch out

You better not cry

Better not pout

I’m telling you why

Jack Claus is wearing a frown

He’s gonna re-list

Not once, but twice

Gonna find out who’s overpriced

Mr & Mrs. Claus are staying in town…

Comment by Curt
2007-12-09 07:53:16

Hmmm. I knew a Nick and Sandy Claus…….

 
 
Comment by walt
2007-12-09 07:16:12

Prices in Naples, FL will have to get back to 1995 before it recovers.

I recently moved out of Naples and to Albany, NY. Yes cold, but “real” jobs are plentiful. I have already met several people here who have done the same thing.

Naples is a playground for the wealthy. A rent of $1000 a month doesn’t work when the only job you can find is paying $10 an hour and your lucky if you get any benefits.

I’ve seen some of the same condos langish on the market as rental and for sale for the past 11 months.

I don’t see how Naples will ever bring back service workers unless you do a “Walmart” rollback in prices to 1995.

 
Comment by bubbleglum
2007-12-09 07:18:38

“The new optimism that has come with Ole Miss’ change of football coaches may help. ‘Whenever Ole Miss has an exciting, winning season or there is a lot of hope (about) an upcoming winning season, it has an impact on not only tourism … but also on the real estate market,’ Knapp said.”

He’s just kidding, right?

Comment by Midwesterner
2007-12-09 07:23:52

I laughed when I read this part too. They just don’t understand that the piggy bank is EMPTY!!!!

 
Comment by Ben Jones
2007-12-09 07:24:13

These people believe this stuff, apparently, and more proof of a popular delusion, IMO. I posted a report with the same sentiment regarding million dollar condos in Atlanta.

Comment by Pen
2007-12-09 08:08:01

.. but if the million dollar condo is an area that is being gentrified, then it’s ok, right?

 
Comment by rudekarl
2007-12-09 08:08:31

Oh boy, they got Houston Nutt - I guess that means the worst of the bubble days are behind them. Time to load up on some sweet, sweet Mississippi real estate. (BS!!!)

Now, if they had Urban Meyer and Superman Tim Tebow, I’d overpay for a condo conversion in Oxford. Go Gators.

Comment by txchick57
2007-12-09 08:43:42

Hey! ARen’t you running today?

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Comment by palmetto
2007-12-09 07:21:29

“North Port’s picture appears a bit dimmer, according to Tony Gustitus of Century 21 Almar Associates. ‘Last year, sales were off maybe 1 percent. We held our own all the way through the year. This year, we’re running out of ways to skew the numbers,’ Gustitus admitted.”

First of all, I call BS on Northport being only 1% off last year. Just look at any REO website with Florida properties and you’ll find a ton of them in Northport. Secondly, this dork talks about “skewing” numbers. Hell’s Bells, they’re not even bothering to hide the fact anymore.

Comment by Ben Jones
2007-12-09 07:25:40

North Port is one of the bigger disasters in Florida, and everybody knows it.

Comment by bubbleglum
2007-12-09 07:39:38

“This year, we’re running out of ways to skew the numbers,’ Gustitus admitted.”

Should read:

“This year, we’re running out of ways to screw the dumbers,’ Gustitus admitted.”

Comment by NeilT
2007-12-09 08:24:34

Thanks. Clearly there were typos in the original.

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Comment by palmetto
2007-12-09 07:46:35

North Port has been a disaster a couple of times over. The father of a buddy of mine used to sell lots for GDC (General Development Corp) back in the day. Supported his family on those lots. Had some stories to tell, got tossed from the company when he realized what was going on.

A Brief History of Florida Real Estate. Warning: PDF

http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/thrall/class/g3602/floridarealestatehistory.pdf

Comment by OCInvestor
2007-12-09 16:21:05

After reading florida RE history, only one word WOW!

All the financial/business genuises who were part of florida boom died when they were in their 50s by either heart attack or suicide and broke.

Unfreaking beleivable. Money does buy everything including death….

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Comment by eastcoaster
2007-12-09 07:22:45

“On Sept. 7, Memoli listed a three-bedroom, two-bath house in New Port Richey for $199,900. Less than three weeks later, the seller had a contract, largely because she agreed to drop the price slightly and pick up part of the buyer’s closing costs.”

“‘She said, ‘I don’t want to leave this on the market six or nine months. I want to get on with my life,’ Memoli recalls. ‘She was realistic.’”

“It also helped that the woman, a retiree planning to downsize, had paid $125,000 for the house several years ago and had substantial equity.”

Smart lady.

Comment by auger-inn
2007-12-09 09:16:35

I wonder what year the final sales price equates too? Not 2003 I’ll bet.

Comment by Neil
2007-12-09 10:12:27

Good question. But this lady saw the writing on the wall. Is she relocating for a job? Renting during the bust? Hey, not a bad idea for getting into better digs. ;)

Got popcorn?
Neil

 
 
 
Comment by dennisd
2007-12-09 07:23:20

“‘There is not one listing I have that anyone will walk away with any money on,’ she said. ‘They’ll break even or have to bring money to the table or it’s a short sale.’”

I believe this scene will play out across much of the USA. Buyers won’t bail out the seller’s, and sellers don’t want to, or are unable to, bring money to the table. That is why, IMO, I think we are in a gridlock situation.

I read somewhere that sellers still think it is 2005 and buyers think it is 1929.

I think prices have to fall low enough to bring investors back.

Just my opinions though.

Comment by diogenes (Tampa,Fl)
2007-12-09 08:40:37

“‘There is not one listing I have that anyone will walk away with any money on,’ she said. ‘They’ll break even or have to bring money to the table or it’s a short sale.’”

This comment caught my attention, too.
But my take is completely different. Why are ALL her sellers unable to see any cash at closing.
Simple answer: ALL HER SELLERS ARE TRYING TO DUMP RECENT ACQUISITIONS.
They are flippers, or homeowners who bought to sell for a profit. If they had been in the house for 5 or more years, and had “purchased” the house with a down payment and an AMORTIZED mortgage, they could walk away with thousands of dollars.
My house if FREE and CLear. Whatever price I get over expenses is CASH at closing.

It just goes to show how real estate became a casino here in Florida over the past 7 years. People were no longer “buying” homes, they were “investing” in their future………..With no money down?

Comment by Ann
2007-12-09 09:01:59

In SFL you had so many people exchanging homes in the area it was crazy. It is so funny because so many of the homes that I had buyers see 2-3 years ago that were up for sale are now back up again.

The idiot who bought my house paid $800K for a house now worth $650K and that was sold back in FEB of this year!!!

Heard he is already in trouble. I knew that there was no way he could afford it, but, heck, I was getting out so what did I care. Especially since we never were stupid enough to HELCO the house! We enjoyed the ride up since we bought it back in 01.

The guy who bought it lived his life on HELCO..well that is all gone in Fl..told hubby we may decide to go back and retire there..thinking maybe end of next year if prices keep going down to purchase a small house that we can have my mother in law live in(she is still down there) and then hold on to it and pay it off.

 
 
Comment by auger-inn
2007-12-09 09:19:04

The REO’s will break the deadlock. Assuming the banks don’t all get together and try to hold them off the market, which is problematic as well.

Comment by Pondering the Mess
2007-12-10 10:21:31

They’ll do that if possible. Real Estate MUST stay unaffordable to keep the sheeple in debt.

 
 
Comment by Kim
2007-12-09 14:25:54

“I read somewhere that sellers still think it is 2005 and buyers think it is 1929.”

I like that. It about sums things up. I’d be happy to meet at 1960’s pricing, though. :)

 
 
Comment by txchick57
2007-12-09 07:25:06

Well, it’s hard to see anything positive coming out of Hurricane Katrina but if it bankrupted the greedy prick who tried to flip a house for 200K a month after buying it, chalk one up for the hurricane.

Comment by rudekarl
2007-12-09 08:45:38

I remember all those stories of the outside investors that were going to roll into the Big Easy and buy up all the land and build all those townhome/condo neighborhoods like we’ve got going on in Dallas right now. I haven’t heard much about that in over a year and the last time I made it to New Orleans there were still huge neighborhoods that looked like Katrina happened a couple of weeks ago.

Comment by txchick57
2007-12-09 08:53:58

You skip White Rock? Good idea, there was a driving rain this a.m.

Comment by rudekarl
2007-12-09 09:00:07

I was going to run the half w/ my wife, but she’s got some back pain, so we skipped it this year.

I’m running Boston again in April, so I’m going to concentrate on staying healthy for that one. I’d like to get a good time there and qualify again for the next couple of years. That’s a real fun race, and even though the Channel 8 folks talk about fan support at the Whiterock Marathon, the sheer number of folks lining the course in Boston is mind-boggling. The fan support in Dallas is like everything else around here, an illusion that’s hyped up by the media.

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Comment by palmetto
2007-12-09 07:25:13

‘In a lot of the overbuilt markets, it’s better to be a renter than an owner,’ said Axiometrics President Ron Johnsey.”

Well, someone had to say it. Congratulations, Ben and HBBers! Finally, our logic has seeped into the media.

Comment by Ben Jones
2007-12-09 07:34:24

Yup, rents matter. I remember when I would talk about rents to my RE friends in 2005, they just got a funny look on their face.

Comment by palmetto
2007-12-09 07:50:14

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
–Arthur Schopenhauer

Comment by manhattanite
2007-12-09 10:54:25

hmmmm. i’m sure mahatma gandhi must have read schopenhauer: “first they ignore you, then laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”

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Comment by aladinsane
2007-12-09 07:38:12

“‘Price is the most important factor by far,’ says Poul Hornsleth, owner of a Gulfport real estate agency. ‘You can start high but it will turn into a stale listing, and you don’t want to get a stale listing.’”

Wasn’t the Titanic listing badly, just before it sunk in Davy Jones Locker?

 
Comment by les pendis
2007-12-09 07:42:36

Does anyone has information about market conditions in the SOuth florida area — specifically single family housing?

Comment by Ann
2007-12-09 09:16:52

Yes. Prices are heavily being adjusted. List pricing is down from original price anywhere from 50K-200K. Then another adjustment around 10-25% when it comes to sold price. Inventory is at around a 3-4 year level. Expecting more large adjustments especially if the new tax law does not pass in January.

 
 
Comment by Pen
2007-12-09 07:53:48

Good morning all,

OT..has any one seen any properties that have or are tempting them to pursue?

thx

Comment by palmetto
2007-12-09 08:09:59

Not yet, Pen. But I always check out the various REO websites, HUD, even realtor.com and craigslist, just to see if anything is up for grabs in my area. There are parts of Tampa Bay where prices have come down to within my range, but they are in St. Pete, West Pasco along the shore (Holiday, Port Richey and New Port Richey) and not very great areas of Tampa. I’m in a weird position, because there’s just one town I’d really like to live in over here and prices are way far fromm 2000 levels as yet.

Comment by Pen
2007-12-09 08:22:52

I’m doing basically the same. For my area, the REOs aren’t a deal (yet?) and I’m not seeing many short sales, auctions, etc. in the areas where I want to live. Not that I think anywhere is immune from a downturn, I do think there can be areas, homes, locations, etc. where one can somewhat mitigate one’s exposure.

For example, in a frenzy everthing goes up, up, up. In a downturn, I honestly believe that the house on a busy road, or next to commercial property or under power lines, etc. is going to fall much more than a house without those types of encumbrences.

I’d rather overpay for a prime property than get a “steal” or “deal” that is really just an illusion of value.

 
 
Comment by mrktMaven FL
2007-12-09 08:23:46

Some friends paid 250K for similar homes. Now, they are going for 150K. My friends have no idea. They have no idea.

http://homes.realtor.com/search/searchresults.aspx?zp=34953&mnp=20&mxp=19&bd=4&bth=4&typ=1

Comment by txchick57
2007-12-09 08:47:08

I can top that one. Paid 250 a year ago, you can now buy for 120.

 
Comment by Robbie
2007-12-09 09:16:52

Love that one on 1006 SW Dildo Lane! Ha!! I’d buy it just so I could write that on all of my property tax payments!

Comment by auger-inn
2007-12-09 09:28:49

Bwahahaha! Honestly, who names these streets? Obviously it’s a “he” who didn’t run the naming ideas across the girlfriend or wife. Search around for the cross streets, there has to be a “strap-on St. or Ben-wa blvd” somewhere nearby.

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Comment by joeyinCalif
2007-12-09 09:41:33

it’s actually Dilido Ln.. but there is a town called Dildo in Newfoundland, Canada

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Comment by txchick57
2007-12-09 08:45:38

Yes, I know of one. It would cash flow immediately. Email me offline.

gymnastgal32 at yahoo dot com

 
Comment by Lane from s.c.
2007-12-09 09:48:23

I have been thinking about buying some homes in the Charlotte area when things adjust but after reading a nightmarish story this morning in the Charlotte Observer, I`m having second thoughts. I want to invest but I don`t want a bunch of problems.

Regards,
Lane

Comment by tuxedo_junction
2007-12-09 10:13:18

Don’t buy anything in the Southeast until you check out the water supply. Find the municipality’s water source and if it’s surface water check what’s left in the reservoir. With the current drought you want a 2-year supply. If it’s well water checkout the state of the aquifer. Once the tap runs dry the sanitary sewers will clog, industry will shut down, and fire-fighting capability will be marginal. Imagine getting property insurance in a municipality with no water.

IMO, if any city actually runs out of water it will be stigmatized for years to come.

Comment by wolfgirl
2007-12-09 15:05:20

Not Charlotte, but maybe close enough to help. My parents owned outside of Rock HIll, SC. which is fairly close to Charlotte. During droughts 20+ years ago, they worried about their well going dry.They are deceased now, so I don’t have any current information. But this year the drought seems worse than it was then.

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Comment by mrktMaven FL
2007-12-09 07:58:25

“Rents in Fort Lauderdale in the third quarter of this year are down by 2.2 percent compared with last year. In Palm Beach County, the decline is 7.8 percent….”

Another HBB prediction becomes reality.

 
Comment by eastcoaster
2007-12-09 08:00:15

Sadly, prices in my area are definitely not back to 2004, 2003 yet. However, how far back does everyone ultimately think prices will fall to? 2001? 2000? Further? And does this include pretty much the entire country or only the pockets like FL, CA, etc.? My rational thinking says it has to be pretty much a blanket reduction based on going back to what was once affordable based on incomes.

Comment by flatffplan
2007-12-09 08:39:45

2003 = recession
2000 = depression
how far DO YOU want them to go

Comment by eastcoaster
2007-12-09 08:49:52

Well being that I couldn’t afford them in 2003, further back than that. I’ve had income increases over the past 4+ years, but not enough to catch up with what home prices did in 2002-2003. Truthfully? I think they need to fall back to where single income earners can at least afford a modest house (or certainly a townhouse).

Comment by Pondering the Mess
2007-12-10 10:26:36

No, no - single income people, along with savers and other such people, must be shoved out into the cold or stuck in dismal “non-conformer” renter units. They have to be punished for not following mob.

Since people’s salaries haven’t really gone up since 2000, I guess that seems to be a fair place for the prices to head.

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Comment by joeyinCalif
2007-12-09 09:46:13

While it seems like a return to affordability will be a reasonable bottom, the added factor of a huge oversupply of inventory might drive prices even lower.

Comment by joeyinCalif
2007-12-09 10:06:19

may as well mention one or two factors that could reduce demand..
A whole lot of potential buyers will have destroyed their credit and won’t be able to buy for years..
If there’s a recession a wave of un- and under-employment might take more buyers out of the race.

 
 
 
Comment by vmaxer
2007-12-09 08:07:09

““‘Price is the most important factor by far,’ says Poul Hornsleth, owner of a Gulfport”

The change in psychology is interesting. Two years ago price didn’t matter, because it was only going to be worth more later. Now with falling prices, price is everything. One of the big tells that we were in a bubble was the price doesn’t matter delusion, that had become pervasive. Price and value relative to incomes had become completely disconnected. The creative financing reinforced the delusion for a time. The proposals to change GSE lending standards are just new forms of “Creative financing”. The private sector won’t lend money that can’t be paid back anymore, so let’s put it on the government and the backs of the American taxpayer.

Comment by Pen
2007-12-09 08:16:49

“The proposals to change GSE lending standards are just new forms of “Creative financing”. The private sector won’t lend money that can’t be paid back anymore, so let’s put it on the government and the backs of the American taxpayer.”

Are the lending standardsfor a GSE loan any more stringent than that of the non-GSE loans?

Does it really matter what the loan limit is, if the under-writing standards are better?

What I’m thinking is that I’d rather make a loan to someone putting 20% down, regardless of the final loan amount, rather than lend a whole lot less to someone putting zero down or doing an 80/20, 80/10/10 or something like that.

Personally, I think a person should have to put a minimum of 10% - 20% down to finance anything. Oh, and that has to be real money, not just some other loan.

Comment by NeilT
2007-12-09 08:38:23

“Personally, I think a person should have to put a minimum of 10% - 20% down to finance anything. Oh, and that has to be real money, not just some other loan. ”

That is the problem. Believe me, there are ways to do creative financing even now. People who do this have gotten smarter. I see pain for tax payers if they start guaranteeing more mortages.

Comment by Pen
2007-12-09 09:06:25

very true, but I can have a Christmas wish, can’t I?

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Comment by vmaxer
2007-12-09 09:09:31

“Does it really matter what the loan limit is, if the under-writing standards are better?”

Proposals like eliminating the need for a down payment on an FHA loan, are just attempts to loosen standards. If we’re not careful the standards will get progressively eroded till we have the same kind of wacky financing that created this mess, only now with government backing.

 
 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2007-12-09 08:18:56

Oh-No! Island

“Broker Randy Brooks said he never thought he’d see a house in foreclosure on Ono Island, but he’s got one listed in the mid-$600,000s. ‘The owner bought it for $895,000 in early 2005,’ he said. ‘And he was a Realtor who had to move out of state to make a living.’”

 
Comment by Bill in Carolina
2007-12-09 08:21:55

“The market has gone back to 2004 and 2003 prices.” I’d say in the Sarasota area that I track, and where we used to live, it’s more like 2003 to 2002 prices. We paid almost exactly $100/sq ft for a new house in a very nice neighborhood in mid-2002, and one across the street from our old place recently sold for $102/sq ft.

http://www.homes.com/Content/Sold-Homes-Prices.cfm

The above web site will give you up to 10 recent nearby sales (price, size, $/sq ft) for any address you type in. And they only show sales within the last 10 or 12 months.

Comment by NeilT
2007-12-09 08:26:52

“‘People need to understand that the market has gone back to 2004 and 2003 prices,’ says Bob Memoli, …

Weren’t 03-04 still bubble years? We need 2000 prices NOW. That is the only way to move to get some movement.

 
 
Comment by ric
2007-12-09 08:29:05

“But that may not last. And building equity in a home will. ‘I think the issues are the same,’ said Certified Financial Planner Benjamin Tobias in Plantation. ‘Whether prices are high or low, you’re better off buying than renting.’”

Remind me to never ask Mr. Tobias for advice, on anything, let alone financial matters. If there was ever an indication that “certification” in something means nothing, Mr. Tobias is it.

Comment by AnnScott
2007-12-09 09:42:44

Who ‘certified’ him? The association for the mathematically incompetent or the loony bin?

Oh yeah - I would have been a whole lot better off if in 2004 instead of laughing when I looked at the market and opting to rent, I had bought this house.

The difference between the rent and what the 2004 mortgage/taxes/insurance would have been was 58%!

Gee, I had no other use for close to $40,000.

Now this area has taken a very abrupt dive from the listing prices which were still ‘bubble’ prices to what things are actually closing at. 31% in 6 months is huge. And there is more to come since massive of 2nd homeowners are throwing the uber-expensive properties on the market. 555 real estate listings in a county with 10,000 households is enormous. Guess they are trying to get out before their option-ARM or hybrid-ARM reset.

Now th

 
 
Comment by Tim
2007-12-09 08:32:22

“Many homeowners facing foreclosure are in denial and don’t think they will lose their homes, Realtors said. Brooks said he has been dealing with a homeowner in a west Mobile subdivision who hasn’t made a mortgage payment since November 2004, but has filed lawsuits in an attempt to stay in the house.”

“‘All you can do is work with them,’ he said.”

One other alternative is to tell them the facts and walk away if they refuse to face reality, but he is probably a buyer’s agent and has nothing to do, and has been staring at that coffee which is of course reserved for closers. One’s gotta dream. Otherwise, depression creeps in.

 
Comment by Tom
2007-12-09 08:42:10

Real GDP versus “Official cooked” GDP. Looks like we have been in a recession since 2005.

http://www.shadowstats.com/imgs/sgs-gdp.gif

Comment by P'cola Popper
2007-12-09 08:46:22

Interesting that the numbers (although different) more or less tracked together until mid to late 2007 when they diverged. Is there any reason given for the divergence?

Comment by Tom
2007-12-09 10:27:40

The elimination of the M3? Because it “COST” too much to calculate and because it would show the increase in the money supply that was about to happen.

 
 
Comment by Mike
2007-12-09 09:03:54

Anyone who takes any notice of government or Fed numbers anymore, needs to get their drinking water examined. All administrations attempt to “cook” the books in their favor and 99% of politicians are only in politics for their own self interests (Cheney being the poster boy) but the Bush administration and the Fed under Greenspan and now under Bernanke will probably go down in history as one of the most corrupt, dishonest and incompetent in US history.

I really don’t think the average American has realized yet just how much serious damage the Fed and the Bush administration has done to the US - but they will eventually. Probably starting in 2008.

 
 
Comment by Mike
2007-12-09 08:53:58

Paul Hornsleth, Gulfport realtor: “Price is the most important factor by far……” Wow,Paul! Brilliant insight. I suppose that’s why you genius type realtorwhores and brokers stole so much money over the past 7 years…..and left a path of complete devastation in your wake.

 
Comment by diogenes (Tampa,Fl)
2007-12-09 08:54:17

“‘People need to understand that the market has gone back to 2004 and 2003 prices,’ says Bob Memoli, a Pasco County real estate agent. ‘If you don’t price that way, it’s just not going to move.’”

Bu….But Bob, you told us when you sold us the house in 2005 that PRICES ALWAYS GO UP. Remember???
Now we want to sell the place, because we get our 2-year free tax dodge with our profits.
What do you mean we owe more than it’s worth??
You said if we didn’t buy now we would be priced out forever. You said we were getting a great deal.
I think you should give us back your commission. Also, do to your bad advice, we should be paid damages. Hummm?

 
Comment by flatffplan
2007-12-09 09:02:29

every taxpayer should see the fannie mae buildings and what those clerks get paid-

 
Comment by Zebediah
2007-12-09 09:16:52

Bush Bailout is less agressive than clinton’s Bailout. It will satisfy both renters and a genuinely suffering homeowners. I am registered Democrat and I am considering changing party.

Comment by Mike
2007-12-09 09:34:14

It’s less aggressive sure enough. In fact, it’s almost non-existant and what does exsist is for the benefit of his pals in the financial world!

Comment by kirisdad
2007-12-09 22:49:02

Hey Mike, how many times a day do you mention Bush?

 
 
Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2007-12-09 09:55:00

Please define genuinely suffering homeowners?

Are these the ones that signed a document without reading? The ones that didn’t understand what the word “adjustable” means in ARM? The ones that knew they couldn’t afford the house? The ones that were tricked by the big bad brokers? The ones that had their arm twisted behind their back and forced to sign the contract?

Once again, if it looks too good to be true…

 
 
Comment by arroyogrande
2007-12-09 09:22:01

“‘You can rent a $325,000 or $400,000 house for $1,800.’”

In California, you can rent a $600,000 house for $1,900.

Comment by arroyogrande
2007-12-09 09:25:32

“‘Whether prices are high or low, you’re better off buying than renting.’”

This is just so absurd that I am left speechless.

 
Comment by Ben Jones
2007-12-09 09:28:49

In N AZ the ratio is even more out of whack than that.

Comment by Mo Money
2007-12-09 10:49:43

Any signs of decline in Sedona or Flagstaff yet ?

 
 
Comment by Renter
2007-12-09 10:30:29

The house model we rent recently sold for $800k. Our rent is $2050. 400xrent is twice what it needs to be before I consider buying. This is in Fremont, CA. So far I have no signs that prices will even drop 10%, let alone 50%.

 
Comment by Patiently Waiting
2007-12-09 11:44:08

Here in Vancouver BC, I’m renting a suburban townhouse “worth” about $350,000 for only $1180. Mind you, my landlord bought it five years ago when it probably cost less than $200,000. Before I rented, I chatted with him to make sure he was an old-school landlord. No fancy fix-ups, just good maintenance and affordable rent.

 
 
Comment by dimedropped (Orlando)
2007-12-09 09:30:37

It seems every community here in Florida has some event on the horizon that will save the bacon. Here it is the new medical school. 5 years away and will primarily hire from the community. There are 500 homes sold, now what to do with the other 65,000?

Wait maybe UCF will win all their football games.

Comment by Pen
2007-12-09 09:36:34

now what to do with the other 65,000?

student dorms!

 
Comment by are they crazy
2007-12-09 10:09:02

Yeah, we hear the same crap in Riverside because UC decided the best way to waste money was to build a medical school there. UCR is the campus of last choice in the system (well maybe Merced for now) in a terrible location in a town that is totally unappealing to college students with a campus that is depressing looking at best where they are filling every open green space with more ugly overpriced buildings. The amount of money they’re going to waste on this venture could pay for free tuition and decent raises, but why bother with staff or students when you can focus on faux prestige. They already had a great program partnering with UCLA med school, but that wasn’t good enough.

 
 
Comment by OCInvestor
2007-12-09 16:53:26

Although interest-only mortgages may appear so contemporary, they are actually veryold (and notorious) financial techniques. Interest-only mortgages were very prevalent before the most significant economic event of the last hundred years, the Great Depression.

A recent article in The Wall Street Journal noted, “Interest-only mortgages were the standard mortgage in the 1920s, but they disappeared during the Great Depression, and for good reason . . . the drop in real estate values during the Great Depression pushed a large proportion of interest-only loans into foreclosure. Lenders
switched entirely to fully amortizing loans, and that has been the standard mortgage loan since.”

 
Comment by Shawn
2007-12-09 18:26:17

Ha Ha! Its FUNNY when other people are in financial pain!
Oh boy, are they huh-gonna huh-get huh-what huh-THEY DESERVE!
Sheez, Louises, lighten up!

 
Comment by aeyra
2007-12-09 21:27:20

“The Market Has Gone Back To 2004 And 2003 Prices”

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhAhAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!

 
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