August Happened, And The Props Were Gone
A report from the Edmonton Journal in Canada. “Edmonton home prices dropped an average of 6.5 per cent in November from October. Edmonton house prices now are down $50,000 from their May peak of $426,028. The volatile mixed category of duplexes and rowhouses plummeted 15.4 per cent to $311,193. ‘The current market is very price-sensitive,’ Carolyn Pratt, president of the Realtors Association of Edmonton, said today. ‘If property is not priced right for this market, it may languish in the listings.’”
“Edmonton-area housing starts fell to 1,091 units in November 2007, down 42.1 per cent from November 2006. ‘Builders have been reacting to concerns about the size of new and resale inventories and their impact on prices,’ said Richard Goatcher, senior market analyst at Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp., which released the figures.”
“‘Overall, the Canadian housing sector continues to outperform expectations, and is in stark contrast to its U.S counterpart where the recession in the housing sector continues unabated,’ said TD Securities strategist Millan Mulraine.”
“However, the signs of economic strength and optimism were released as Bank of Canada governor David Dodge was warning that the credit crunch has intensified, adding to the risk posed by the weakening in the U.S. economy, of an economic downturn.”
“‘These tighter credit conditions have come as financial market difficulties have intensified over the past few weeks and as bank-funding costs have increased globally,’ Dodge said. ‘At the same time, there is an increased risk attached to the prospects for demand for Canadian exports because the outlook for the U.S. economy, particularly the U.S. housing sector, has weakened.’”
The Calgary Sun in Canada. “Despite a plunge in housing starts in the region, experts say Calgary’s economic boom is far from over. The federal housing agency, the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, reported a 48% drop in housing starts between last month and November, 2006.”
“Total housing construction in Calgary is so far down by 17% this year over last. Last month, 776 homes were started in the Calgary area, down from 1,497 the previous November.”
“Even so, the pace of construction remains hectic, said Deep Shergill, president of the Calgary Region Home Builders Association.”
“‘Most of the builders are still building at or near capacity,’ said Shergill, adding the sector’s labour squeeze continues. ‘There’s just no way we could maintain that kind of pace we’d seen.’”
“Multi-family housing starts in the city dropped a whopping 76% last month compared to November, 2006.”
“Lai Sing Louie, a senior analyst with the CMHC, said some of the overall slowdown is caused by more used listings diverting buyers. ‘There’s still lots of supply in the re-sale market,’ he said.” “In Alberta’s seven largest centres, housing starts in November, 2007, were down 38% from the same month last year.”
The Tri-City Herald from Washington. “Joseph McKenzie and Mary Vines did their homework and found the home they wanted in Pasco. The couple checked out nearly 20 houses before settling on the seventh house they looked at. McKenzie said the couple found what they wanted, and stayed within their budget.”
“Although McKenzie and Vine weren’t worried about housing market troubles, local officials are concerned that bleak national reports are negatively tainting local perceptions of the Tri-City market.”
“And locally, the housing picture looks relatively rosy, officials say. ‘Markets are local. Just because it’s a national trend doesn’t mean it’s going on in your neighborhood,’ said Marchell Mascheck, a Realtor in Richland. ‘We haven’t followed the national trend in many years.’”
“She and other local industry officials say it’s actually a good time to sell a home in the Tri-Cities because the market is balanced between sellers and buyers.”
“‘So many people are sitting on the fence; why wait?’ said said Dana Mundy, owner of AmeriChoice Home Loans in Richland. ‘All the way around our market is very strong.’”
“Even though credit restrictions are tighter after the national meltdown of the subprime mortgage market, Mascheck said it will help potential homeowners be stronger buyers. ‘People are going to be better prepared,’ she said. ‘They’re going to enjoy owning a home much more.’”
“Unlike other regions, the Tri-Cities didn’t experience a housing bubble a few years ago. And the Tri-Cities has never had a glut of homes on the market, builders say. In Boise during the housing boom in 2005, for example, investors could buy a home and sell it for 10 percent to 20 percent more in six months, said Jeff Losey, executive director of the Home Builders Association of Tri-Cities.”
“But when the market slows, as it did earlier this year, those investors are left with houses that won’t even sell for their purchase price.”
“Mundy said she thinks the balanced market could tip in favor of buyers if a large number of foreclosed homes come on the market.”
“Though notice of trustee sales have increased by about 11 percent this year, locals aren’t experiencing the same phenomenon as the rest of the nation. The Benton-Franklin Title Company has reported 739 notice of trustee sales through November of this year, up from 665 in the same time frame in 2006.”
“‘It’s going to hit us here, it’s just not going to slap us around like it has other areas,’ Mundy said.’”
Business Week reports on Washington. “Even the nation’s hottest markets are slowing. In the Pacific Northwest, where many markets have been bucking the national trend, the pace of sales transactions and price appreciation is dropping off.”
“In Wenatchee, real estate agents acknowledge the softening. ‘We’ve had a little bit of a slowdown but nothing compared to what we’re seeing in the rest of the country,’ says Lisa Day, a Realtor in Wenatchee. ‘In my market, prices have gone up and they’ve plateaued. You’re seeing a little bit of a plateau now.’”
The Kitsap Sun from Washington. “Kitsap County had more homes and condos for sale last month than November a year ago and the median sale price dropped $19,000, or 6.69 percent, during the same period, according to Northwest MLS.”
“Inventory is up 25.33 percent from this time last year and pending sales have declined 27.53 percent during the same time period.”
“But real estate professionals are trying to emphasize that the drop in prices shows that real estate trends, including those in Kitsap County, are starting to return to normal for the time of year rather than signaling a problem.”
“‘As expected, Kitsap’s housing market has adjusted to the slow down in job growth, stricter credit requirements, and the traditional slower winter season,’ said Mike Eliason, executive of the Kitsap Association of Realtors. ‘In comparison to real estate markets throughout the nation, however, Kitsap is still relatively strong.’”
“In November 2006, the median sale price of a home was $285,000. That median dropped significantly last month to $265,000. The decline is a positive for those wanting to own homes, because the new median home price is beginning to align with income levels of Kitsap residents.”
The Columbian from Washington. “The Columbian’s business editor, Julia Anderson, in her Dec. 2 column, asked a question about the Clark County real estate market. She put forward the proposition that ‘a psychological standoff continues in Clark County between buyers who think house prices should be dropping on weaker sales and sellers who are convinced their homes are not overvalued.’”
“I agree that the Portland-Vancouver metropolitan area housing market has done better than most housing markets in the nation. However, there is no denying that (1) it is a buyers’ market, (2) housing starts and sales are significantly down, and (3) the homes-for-sale inventory is at a record high.”
“There is also no doubt that there may be worse to come. All of the housing indicators point to the fact that the downturn in the housing market is now worse in Clark County than it is on the other side of the river in Oregon. And my question to The Columbian and others is, ‘Why is this so?’”
“The historical fact is that a home in Clark County has always been cheaper to build and sell than on the Oregon side of the river. So what happened? The only answer I can come to is that the Clark County market became so super-heated that the downturn became even more dramatic.”
“People were buying and ‘flipping’ houses to such an extent that some local home builders here required buyers to live in the home for a period of time before they could sell.”
“In the past, it seemed that the Portland-Vancouver metropolitan area was the first into a recession and the last out. This time we may be lucky. We may be last in and first out. And that would be refreshing.”
The Oregonian. “University of Oregon economists say that a collection of falling monthly economic indicators suggests that a statewide ‘recession is likely imminent.’”
“Oregon initial unemployment claims rose in October to the highest level since November 2006. Residential building permits issued in the state dropped to the lowest level since September 2000.”
“Economists cautioned that the ‘general rule’ merely signals, but by no means guarantees, that a recession is coming. But their report highlighted October’s negative results, and said: ‘A decline of this breadth and magnitude preceded the 2001 recession and suggests a weak economic environment in the near term.’”
The West Linn Tidings from Oregon. “There’s good news and bad news for the local housing market: 2008 doesn’t look so hot. On the other hand, things should bounce back in 2009.”
“That was the message delivered to builders, real estate professionals and other interested parties at last Thursday’s annual housing forecast put on by the Home Builders Association of Metropolitan Portland.”
“‘You’ve got to talk to your consumers before you start building,’ said David Ludwig, of Vista Market Intelligence, to the builders in the room. It will be ‘another slow year in 2008, possibly down slightly from 2007 levels.’”
“Former U.S. Bancorp economist John Mitchell titled his presentation ‘Momma said there would be times like this – but not very often!’”
“We’ve had it pretty good for a while now, Mitchell reminded the roomful of professionals. For the building industry, he said, the last few years have been ‘the stuff of legends.’”
“Home ownership rates climbed from 1998 to 2006, when they peaked at 69 percent. Prices also peaked in ‘06, when residential permits were strong, financing conditions were good and homes were relatively affordable.”
“‘And then August happened,’ he said. ‘The props were gone.’”
“‘What’s likely to happen? I’m still willing to bet we’re going to make it through without a recession,’ said Mitchell. ‘There’s an inventory problem that has to be worked through, he said, adding, ‘It’s not going to happen instantly. It’s going to take time.’”
The Gazette Times from Oregon. “It’s the best of recent times to be a qualified buyer in the Corvallis housing market. But sellers are waiting a bit longer now than they did a year ago to find that buyer.”
“‘It’s pretty obvious that there are fewer buyers than sellers,’ said Alan Dietch, a local agent. ‘People are reluctant to lower their prices, but there are lots of options for new buyers.’”
“In 2005, there were 949 real estate transactions, compared to 867 in 2006. So far this year, 816 sales have been recorded.”
“The median selling price for Corvallis homes in November was $275,000, down from almost $300,000 last month. A year ago, the Corvallis median selling price was $320,250.”
“‘What we’re seeing is that houses still are selling,’ said Doug Burton, president of the Willamette Association of Realtors. ‘Prices are not appreciating, but they’re not really falling, either.’”
“The number of houses sold in November also dropped. Ownership changed on 41 houses in November of last year compared with 33 this year. That still was an improvement over October. With 30 houses sold, it was the slowest month in total sales this year.”
“New homes accounted for about a fourth of the 33 houses sold in Corvallis in November, and most of them sold for more than $300,000.”
The World Link from Oregon. “Economists appeared to be determined to be upbeat at the Bay Area Chamber of Commerce’s 15th-annual Bay Area Economic Outlook Forum. They overlooked the immediate problems in the Bay Area, and, instead, focused on the future.”
“‘The big picture is, we’ve got the drag from housing, but there’s a lot of other stuff going on,’ said Keynote speaker, former U.S. Bank Economist John Mitchell.”
“Coos County has not experienced the battering from the housing crisis as much as counties have in other states, but Oregon Employment Department Regional Economist Guy Tauer, said that houses for sale in the county have been on the market for an average of 109 days this year as compared to 86 days last year.”
“‘We’ve had slower growth, but it’s not like we’re falling off the cliff in Coos County,’ he said.”
“Mitchell said high rents can be blamed on a change in housing conditions. Prior to recent restrictions on mortgages, just about anybody could purchase a house so people weren’t looking at buying rentals, he said.” “‘If you could fog a mirror, you could get a house,’ Mitchell said.”

“Edmonton house prices now are down $50,000 from their May peak of $426,028. The volatile mixed category of duplexes and rowhouses plummeted 15.4 per cent to $311,193. ‘The current market is very price-sensitive,’ Carolyn Pratt, president of the Realtors Association of Edmonton, said today. ‘If property is not priced right for this market, it may languish in the listings.’”
Sounds like if it is not priced right for the market, its value may continue dropping like a rock.
Take a close look at that paragraph again with the 6.5 percent figure. They say the price dropped 50k overall on homes since the peak in May but 6.5% since last month. That means from May to October it dropped as much as from October to November. YIKES!
Sorry that should read from October to November it dropped as much as from May to October. Looks like a steap hill….
Check out the Portland Housing Blog for the latest from Stump Town.
http://www.portlandhousing.blogspot.com
there is a good reason for Canadian prices to be going down…
for the past several years now the Realtors have been creating phantom bids to drive prices higher. Now its in the open… and no one up north wants to catch the falling knife…
The secret’s out on phantom bids
TheStar.com - GTA - The secret’s out on phantom bids
Registry, open bidding needed to stamp out phony offer scams, some realtors say
September 15, 2007
Tony Wong
Gail Swainson
Staff Reporters
The incoming head of the Toronto Real Estate Board has come out swinging against phantom bidding tactics after denying they even existed when she ran for the job three months ago.
“It’s dirty realty, it really is,” Maureen O’Neill said of agents who fabricate offers during bidding wars. She is now calling on the Real Estate Council of Ontario (RECO) to yank the licences of agents convicted of using phony bids.
“Boot them out, we don’t need them in the business,” O’Neill said. “I don’t think these people should be allowed to sell real estate.”
Phantom bids can be used by selling agents to spark extra rounds of bidding or to spook potential buyers into rushing or raising offers. The practice is considered a breach of ethics under the Real Estate and Business Brokers’ Act of Ontario – administered by the Ontario council – and realtors who are caught can face hefty fines.
There are more than 52,000 real estate agents in Ontario (26,000 in Toronto) and last year they sold 194,793 existing homes in Ontario (84,872 in the Toronto market).
An informal poll of 30 Toronto-area agents taken yesterday by the Star suggests that virtually all believe that some form of phantom bidding exists in the market. More than two-thirds said some kind of structural reform in the way bids were handled was needed to address the problem.
However, more than half the agents said the problem is being caused by “a few bad apples.”
One prominent broker, who handles one of the city’s largest brokerages, calls the problem “rampant.”
http://www.thestar.com/printArticle/256968
and they have oil , while USA hippies talk about alternatives
got nukes?
wind and solar are far behind hippie things.
Canada also supplies the USA with a large amount of natural gas, which we in turn use for electrical generation.
Great string of articles, Ben.
“Unlike other regions, the Tri-Cities didn’t experience a housing bubble a few years ago. And the Tri-Cities has never had a glut of homes on the market, builders say. In Boise during the housing boom in 2005, for example, investors could buy a home and sell it for 10 percent to 20 percent more in six months, said Jeff Losey, executive director of the Home Builders Association of Tri-Cities.”
I think they couldn’t drink the Cool-Aid fast enough; they started snorting the powder!
“Unlike other regions, the Tri-Cities didn’t experience a housing bubble a few years ago.”
This is a totally b.s. statement from Losey. I once considered applying for a very good position there with BPA about a year ago, and I decided not to mostly on the basis that the area was obviously in the middle of a housing bubble. The facts were (and are) plain enough for a child to see.
I grew up in the Tri-Cities and my parents (and many friends) still live there.
The cost of housing in that area is directly tied to the federal budget for the Hanford site–when the budget is down and there are less workers, housing prices are lower, and housing goes up as the budget does.
Has been this way since the 1950s.
“‘If you could fog a mirror, you could get a house,’ Mitchell said.”
There it is! Look! It’s the mirror-fogger loan, again! I love that one!
Remember, not everyone in Florida may qualify!
Did it make a difference where the breath to fog the mirror was coming from?
Did it have to be from the nostrils? or could mouth breathers particpate as well?
Also, could the breadth have been soft-second breath or commission rebate breath or seller contributed breath?
Does it have to be human breath? I’ve had several dogs who were quite good at mirror-fogging.
The questions you guys are asking would require too much paperwork to document. Just sign here. Want a HELOC with that?
Baited Breath…
Comment by aladinsane
2007-12-11 15:25:36
Baited Breath…
Don’t you EVER get tired of being a smarty-pants?
Bait breath? yikes.
or doggy breath either way.. gimme a loan.
hhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Thanks for the Canadian content Ben.
The realtor associations here in Alberta are in full-fledged BS mode, saying how 30%-40% drop in housing starts is not a correction, saying how 15% decline in house prices is no big deal, and saying how 300% inventory increases YoY is nothing to worry about; the boom is STILL expected to go strong.
The “it’s different here” mentality is especially strong, not sure why… must have something to do with the recent -20 degree weather freezing too many brain cells.
I totally agree. Western Canada is stupid without RE fever. Especially Saskatoon, of all places. Land as far as the eye can see. Its nearly 400 miles between the outskirts of Calgary and the outskirts of Saskatoon and I doubt 100,000 people live in between them.
“Coos County has not experienced the battering from the housing crisis as much as counties have in other states”
Can’t we just insert almost any county name here? How many counties have said the same thing for years?
‘Yeah, the bubble didn’t really hit here’…
Um, if the construction statistics shows that you had construction happening above the normal trend, you HAD a bubble, regardless of how much prices went up.
And why don’t some of these podunk places figure out if their population and employment figures justify their projections, or at least justify the construction that went on?
If you have a place with stagnant of decreasing population, home prices had to go down, not up. If they went up, you HAD a bubble.
Damn, the financial literacy in the world is what, 2%?
This is basic stuff, not really hard to figure out.
There has also been some Cali speculation in Coos County due to the proposed LNG plant…I know a few of them…They think Coos Bay is going to be the next LA port…”Not”…
Heck, we can’t even keep the rail line out there open.
I don’t know if this has been previously posted but I think it reflects the view of the board: http://www.minyanville.com/articles/index/a/15167/from/yahoo
“my very own government is treating me as a sucker. I mean openly, which is kind of new.”
Reflects my feelings anyways. I have felt alienated from the government before, I have never felt before that the federal government was an active adversary. I do now.
Doug Burton, president of the Willamette Association of Realtors. ‘Prices are not appreciating, but they’re not really falling, either.’”
That sounds about right Doug, they are not “really” falling. Let me just remind you Doug that if they are not appreciating by at lest the rate of inflation then they are… Falling!
From Lisa Day, a Realtor in Wenatchee: ‘In my market, prices have gone up and they’ve plateaued. You’re seeing a little bit of a plateau now.’”
“Plateau” is so, like, 2006 Realtor speak.
it takes awhile for the new fashionable NAR words to spread throughout the country.
“Stock prices have reached what looks like a permanently high plateau.” Irving Fisher, 1929
Bubbles grow until they burst. Cycles trend up and then trend down. There is no such thing as a permanently high plateau. This time is never different.
And this place is never different.
Is the second derivative of the curve (showing rising or falling prices) at zero? If so, Doug’s statement would be accurate. But I doubt that it is.
Wow, that sounds like Horace H. Rackham talk
down 14% or 45k in a year, actually that IS “really falling”. High price to pay even for living in a relatively nice city.
“The median selling price for Corvallis homes in November was $275,000, down from almost $300,000 last month. A year ago, the Corvallis median selling price was $320,250.”
Now Congress wants to reach all the way back to 2000 and let BK courts rewrite contracts???
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071211/NEWS07/71211077
Just thought I’d post this again in case someone missed it.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0712/S00153.htm
If you have time read the linked article as well.
Thanks augur. The personal issue for me remains the same…how best to defend oneself. Any thoughts?
A blatant attempt at keeping FB’s tied to their mortgages and save the bankers.
Your government, working overtime to stop the resets, foreclosures and price declines…..
Your government, working overtime to stop the resets, foreclosures and price declines…
In other words, not allowing nature to run its course.
I’m pretty sure this was posted already… but maybe not…
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/12/09/IN5BTNJ2V.DTL
“But unfortunately, the “freeze” is just another fraud - and like the other bailout proposals, it has nothing to do with U.S. house prices, with “working families,” keeping people in their homes or any of that nonsense.
The sole goal of the freeze is to prevent owners of mortgage-backed securities, many of them foreigners, from suing U.S. banks and forcing them to buy back worthless mortgage securities at face value - right now almost 10 times their market worth.
The ticking time bomb in the U.S. banking system is not resetting subprime mortgage rates. The real problem is the contractual ability of investors in mortgage bonds to require banks to buy back the loans at face value if there was fraud in the origination process.”
“But unfortunately, the ‘freeze’ is just another fraud …The sole goal of the freeze is to prevent owners of mortgage-backed securities, many of them foreigners, from suing U.S. banks and forcing them to buy back worthless mortgage securities at face value - right now almost 10 times their market worth.”
Fraudulent marketing maybe, but perhaps a worthwhile policy nonetheless? Won’t most everyone be whining when, as this article suggests, the American banking system becomes insolvent under the weight of “worthless mortgage securities”? To fiddle while Rome burns or to dispatch the available firefighters to drench the financial institutions while all else burns to the ground: what’s a polititian to do?
BWAHAHAHA I want my rate cut and I want it now!
Bloody red indices look so beautiful! The PPT can’t get the parachutes open.
Can’t get the choppers off the ground…
Wondering if the Fed elves will change the Motto on those worthless dollars from “In RE We trust ” to “Will Work For Food” when they CRANK their presses into Xmas overtime:)
Might tape my dollars together and use them for wrapping paper.
BWAHAHAHA I want my rate cut and I want it now!
so when the music’s over, turn out the lights. turn out the light. when the music is your special friend…
These Realtors still dont get the fact that years of hype & false promises have now come back to haunt them. No one believes a word of what they say. You can only cry wolf so many times before even the village idiot laughs at you. What’s really sad is even the morsels of truth buried in their forever buy-now spiels are just lumped into the category of bullshit. Watching & reading their desperate pleas to buy just confirm their self-serving mission to get as high a commission possible, no matter what. Thanks to the internet their snake oil stories can go no further than the last bad deal, and the same computer that they use to pump up sales also records forever their lying statements. Computers which allow anyone motivated to research for more than just the NAR official party line.
Knowledge of the truth and lack of urgency; every sales persons nightmare!
They’ve darn run low on GF’s. Oh… there is one born every minute. But it will take them a while to qualify for that loan.
WaMu is predicting 40% fewer mortgages in 2008 than 2007. Does that mean 40% fewer sales? That implies only 3.5 Million homes sold in 2008. That’s half of 2005!
Now to hope for an open MLS.
Got popcorn?
Neil
I smell the R word! down down like a merry go round………
RE always goes down.
How dare you spout your ideology on this blog?
If I had a GF that went down as fast as RE is going down, I’d be spending less time on this blog.
Merry Christmas
http://www.fotothing.com/photos/us/5389.gif
Housing woes sapping sales
Retail season affected by subprime lending problems.
http://tinyurl.com/3y3smk
I wish the article had a few numbers. It was pretty much speculation - discounters may get benefit of people trading down from department stores, high end maybe OK because rich people handle hard times better than others, etc.
But it isn’t just this article. It is all over. Where are the retail numbers? In a normal economic climate this should have been a fabulous Christmas season because there is an extra weekend (early Thanksgiving and Christmas eve on a Monday).
Show me the money.
I am STOKED. Made nice coin on that down move and my puts are up. How much more can a bear ask for!
I think you can stick a fork in the rest of the year. I cannot imagine what catalyst would be left. If I were a long only manager, I’d be in gain preservation mode now.
Next crack at 1400 or less, wouldn’t be so quick to buy.
Yeah Chick…..A started laughing when I looked at the chart after 2:00 P.M…..I reminded me a of child throwing a tantrum….”Only A Quarter Point” !!!
I just had an awful thought. What if the govt decided Housing is Our Business (since we don’t have much else going these days) and made it a new future priority to keep prices propped up forever? You know, do whatever, keep the credit flowing, get everyone in a house, like we were doing….could they do it?
Perhaps if they’re free. Otherwise I just don’t see how some J6P making $10/hr can afford the median priced (or any for that matter) house in the US. Plus there is a limited supply of J6Ps (unless we invite the rest of Mexico to move here)
hud-fha-fnm- interest deductability-community banking act
what did they miss?
Don’t forget Greenspan’s 1%, 1031 exchange, $250k/500k capital gains tax exemption, “any two will do”, 1031 exchange & “Don’t 1099 me, bro!”. There is nothing that can be done to prevent housing price deflation that won’t be done.
For the last year we have been told that it is different here (Edmonton, Alberta). I guess not…
http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/business/story.html?id=dfd0b0e8-c376-48ae-bde4-9500daf9b482&k=18679
WAMU. Happy days are here again for convertible arbs
http://www.thestreet.com/s/wamu-preferred-offering-priced-to-sell/newsanalysis/banking/10393989.html?puc=_tsccom
In the event of default, the counter party has to be solvent to pay up. Not sure in these conditions that any counter party is solvent. I love modeling programs. I think this modeling program was put together by a glue sniffer. Oops, this has to be a great deal hedge funds are buying.
They probably don’t care: The purchasers will use money derived from a short position on the stock to purchase the convertibles. Depending on the price, breakeven is usually less than a year away and the rest is gravy.
Not on this issue, you would have to short the stock a lot higher and the amount of interest received from the short stock does not offset the risk from a potential rise in the stock price. But you are right, they do not care. It is other people’s moneys.
The funds are looking to dump it to sucker investors for a quick profit.
right–o
i like PKK
they may actually pay the div
OT, but I love how the market plunged 300 points today because BB “only” gave a 25 bps cut. I guess 50 points WASN’T in the bag like all the hotshots thought it was ! :shakeshead:
It was paragraph 3 of the statement that did it.
Really, honestly, I cannot conceive of what could hold this market up any longer to year end. I was going to take the rest of the month off, no way now. Bombs away.
Ok, the equity bulls get their 25 BPs but it comes with chilling commentary. Reaction: equity indices down 2%, dollar up somewhat, Treasury yields down somewhat, oil up 2% but gold down 2%. Not very consistent. That’s why I’m not a day trader.
I invest the way I drive; always looking 10 cars ahead of me (except when I’m behind a damned SUV or mini-van).
Wall Street toilets are overflowing.
Sh!tting bricks - gotta love the visuals on that one.
Ouch in more ways than one
“Even though credit restrictions are tighter after the national meltdown of the subprime mortgage market, Mascheck said it will help potential homeowners be stronger buyers. ‘People are going to be better prepared,’ she said. ‘They’re going to enjoy owning a home much more.’”
Kind of like enjoying a hangover. What an amazing statement.
‘They’re going to enjoy owning a home much more.’
Now, to be sure, I’m not fully expecting to pay cash for a house, but, we are getting to the point where I’ll either be getting a much nicer house or much smaller mtge. Even if I catch a falling knife, it will be more of a kitchen knife vs. a Conan the Barbarian sword, so yes, I will be enjoying the home much more.
Now, with a a luck on my side, I might actually get something for close to cash…In that event, I will enjoy “owning”, indeed.
you can catch a falling knife if it’s the butter knife.
“you can catch a falling knife if it’s the butter knife.”
LOL. Perhaps. I think it depends on the velocity of the knife.
Actually the trends for Groundhog’s family show us buying a house with cash in 2010. House prices are falling and our savings are growing thanks to cheap rent and foreign currency investments. Now that Mrs. Groundhog can see those trend lines, all of the urgency has gone out of buying.
congrats to you and mrs GH.. the urgency has gone!
I’ll bet that a lot of the flipping in Edmonton was because of the oil sands projects they have going on out there. People are betting on housing before anything goes online as far as oil production. The state of SD is having a pipeline go through it all the way to MO and SD and ND, NE, etc. are all betting on this oil sand paying off. I’m of the belief that oil sands probably are just a small % of what we have for oil on the earth. It’s like the people in the stock market who are buying up land in Texas and Oklahoma and hoping that it will quadruple in price because of ‘rich people from the coastlines’ coming to buy it. The wealthy people on the coastlines probably aren’t going to buy bare land in some state in the Great Plains. There’s a reason why land in Kansas is cheap. From the price drops that we see in the news now, I’m thinking that RE may not be very sticky on the way down…
Bush was right about his “Ownership Society” FB’s and GF’s
The GATOR OWNS YOU and now the Munching BEGINS
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/10/subprime.christmas.ap/index.html
In California’s San Joaquin Valley, Christina Perret said the foundering housing market has caused sales to sag at her three high-end women’s fashion clothing shops and forced her to reconsider her stock.
Perret’s gotten rid of racks of flashy tops with plunging necklines that were favorites with real estate agents, substituting a line of conservative sweaters popular with farmers’ wives.
That pretty much captures the typical realtor….
Not to leave out the suspender belts, high heels, black nylons, thongs and split skirts. The tools of every hooker be they street walkers or realtors.
Hookers where Thongs ?? Ins’t that bad time management
Where = Wear…bad = poor…..Sheeesh !!
lol lol
Aha, it’s fake cleavage that caused inflated house prices!! When one asset is unnaturally inflated, it creates sympathetic tumescence.
when the farmer’s wives are purchasing plunging necklines I will start to think about selling my commodities.
“… the foundering housing market has caused sales to sag …”
Add that to the problem of sagging breasts due to the inability to use home equity loans to finance silicon implants, and you start to realize the hidden tragedy of the bursting bubble.
From…
http://www.cnbc.com/id/22202682
“I think we have a divided Fed, which is the problem” Bill Gross, head of the world’s biggest bond fund, Pimco, said on CNBC immediately after the decision. “We have half of the Fed that gets it…The other half doesn’t get it. That portion is more academic–less connected to the financial market.”
Hey Bill, STFU..I’m sure your still going to get a huge bonus. Oh, you want your funds bailed out, so your “bets” don’t look too bad..
Interesting story on rents. My son rents a sfh in Northridge, Ca. in a blue collar area. He’s been there 8 years and his rent is $1,500 a month. Started off at $1,300 8 years ago but the owner isn’t too greedy so it’s only risen a few hundred in those 8 years.
Anyway, a house opposite his (same layout but freshly painted) came on the market some time ago after the market peaked but didn’t sell. My son discovered it was bought by a realtorwhore at the peak. After several months, seeing as the realtorwhore wasn’t going to be able to sell for what he paid (or more via flipping) and thus had a non-performing investment, the realtorwhore owner put the house up for rent. He wanted $2,600. $1,100 more than my son is renting for.
There was no interest for a long time but, suddenly, the house is now rented. However, my son ain’t no dummie. This is what he figures: The realtorwhore/owner sold the house that the new renters owned and told them not to buy yet because the market has not hit bottom. “Meanwhile, I have a nice sfh you can rent until the market returns to normal.” Of course, my son is writing a script because he has no idea that this is the case but it sounds logical and knowing what a breed of scumbag connivers realtors are I’m inclined to believe him.
He thinks there are 2 families (Armenians) who have moved in. Armenians (and some other cultures) usually share homes with grown children and their children. However, my point being, it seems rents are rising quite substantially. I know someone on my street who just rented for $2,200 a month and I pay $1,800 a month (same layout).
Continuing with that thought, it makes me wonder if, as the rents rise and the property prices drop, there might be a “meeting” in the middle somewhere because, as we know, the ONLY way TRUE property prices can be valued is by rental prices. Rental business might be good because there are 2 million + FB’s out there who will be looking for a place to live in the next 2 years as they get evicted.
At the peak when property prices were on a powerful concoction of drugs which included the most powerful drug of all, “free money”, a SFH my son rents was selling for $650,000. A joke of course and they are now coming back to earth with a bad overdose headache. They are probably around $100,000 less at this point and still not selling.
Working on the 100x the rent premise to get a property value, that newly rented house at $2,600 has to drop to $260,000. Conversely, if the realtorwhore owner paid full price at $650,000, he has to charge over $5,000 a month if he wants true value rental for his investment.
Looks like we have a looooong way to go because a lot of owners will be hard pressed to get $2,600 a month as rental let alone $5,000 a month. Incomes alone will determine that.
Your assumption in rising rents means you also assume rising incomes. Considering the fraction of the GNP that was the REIC… that won’t happen. Not to mention most industries left in Southern California cannot stay if the cost of living goes up much more.
For example, Aerospace and TV. We already have “B scale” TV workers being shipped to other areas. Aerospace has pretty bad attrition. So if rents are even perceived to rise… bye bye.
My company is planning on moving people out of the South Bay, DC, and a few other areas dependent upon winning a big contract. If we win we will send thousands of workers to Arizona, Texas, Penn, Florida, and a few other states. Notice a trend? States that already know they’re in a bust and were willing to do tax incentives.
Where we’re goign to pull workers from? “Its different here.”
Got popcorn?
Neil
Fundamentally, we have more houses, particuarly in the bubble markets, than we have people to live in them. The slow foreclosure process might temporarily pinch rentals, but eventually unsold homes are going to be purchased by bottom feeders who will promptly rent them out–and undercut the rental market.
Supply vs. Demand will ensure that HOUSING costs fall, for renters and buyers (two sides of the same coin).
OT..
ok, on cnbc (just a minute ago), Hillary just said that the Inheritance Tax should not be repealed, because part of its purpose is to ensure that wealth is not maintained by passing it from generation to generation.
WTF…
Fine, ok, that’s what she wants, how about allowing the rich to pass it along directly to poor families of their choice…it’s better than sending the $$$ to D.C…
Yeah let’s embrace the return to Feudalism. Republicans are on such a roll with the tax cuts for the wealthy, the trickle down has done such wonders for the country…
What else do you expect from a Marxist ??
I will piss it away or give it away and die broke before I give it to the Fed goverment….
scdave,
check out the numbers, I think your estate has to be in the multi-millions before you take a hit. That said, I agree, burn it before you give it to the Feds.
If more and more wealth becomes concentrated in relatively few families, and that wealth is passed on to undeserving children, there is a good argument for that situation being bad for both the economy and country as a whole. The Republicans have done a great job of making everyone think this applies to them, when in fact it really only applies to the very wealthy.
One prominent supporter of the inheritance tax: Warren Buffett. Actually Warren believes it should be much higher and is giving most of his money away because he believes very strongly that every generation has to make on their own abilities. Buffett is hardly a Marxist.
So why doesn’t WB just give his away and stay out of other people’s business? Ah, that Nebraska collectivist spirit. . .
Thanks for pointing this out. The GOPs have been playing linguistic hide-n’-seek on the estate tax, by calling it the death tax, which as you accurately point out–unlike universal death– only affects a miniscule few. Besides Buffett, Bill Gates is also opposed to repealing the estate tax, realizing that if all the power is concentrated in the wealthy, which a generational rollover of great wealth ensures, we are certain to be more a plutocracy than we already are.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a5kHpV5W97uY&refer=home
SCDave… here is my addressXX XXX XXXX, XXXX XXXXXXX,XX
.. I will accept MO’s or cashiers checks.. I will help!
I seriously doubt that you are in the top 1-2 % of households in the US in terms of ASSETS.
And that is the people to whom the estate tax applies in fact rather than in theory.
Anyone who even gets close to the limits for a because of real estate or a family business has to be thick as 2 bricks if they can’t structure their estate to avoid it. They will have to pay a competent estate and tax attorney rather than using Joe Schmoo on the corner. I think they can afford it the $2-5K it would cost.
I KNOW exactly what that law was designed to do. I was a US Congressional aid in 1976 and worked on it. I rewrote parts of it because we had a district with a LOT of family farms which meant they were asset rich and cash poor. It was written then to index for inflation and exempt all by a tiny handful (maybe less than 50-100 a year) of family farms and family businesses.
Haven’t looked at it since to see if Congress later buggered it up but that was how it was drafted then.
The estate tax has been around since 1900ish. Andrew Mellon was a huge supporter and it was past under Teddy Roosevelt.
Think of Jacqueline Mars who is helping to fund the misinformation and attack on the estate tax. Heiress to the Mars Candy fortune. Never worked a day in her life at anything. (And gives new meaning to the words ‘bitch’, ‘useless’ and ‘dilatante.’ - knew her from a sport I did years ago.) When she inherited from daddy, she got her entire lifetime income in one fell swoop. Granted she had to pay her piddling 15% on the millions of unearned investment income every year, but that is only on the after-acquired income. Consider the estate tax on her inheritance a once-in-a-lifetime income tax payment. She got the income -she gets the tax bill. Divide that amount paid out in ‘estate’ tax over her lifetime and she comes out way ahead as compared to what she would have paid if she had actually had to have gotten a job and earned the same amount of money. Seems fair. Heaven knows the rest of us who worked to get our earned income pay more over our lifetimes as a proportion of our incomes than she paid in an estate tax as a proportion of her ‘one-shot-lifetime-income.’
Hillary is right, as usual. Smart chic.
The local paper where I live (southern Saskatchewan) reports that housing starts for Regina for November 2007 were up more than 44% from November 2006. However, I suspect some of that is due to homebuilders catching up on a backlog of orders that were placed earlier this year.
The boom came late to Saskatchewan, and I think the province may also lag behind in coming down. But come down it will eventually, especially with a resource-based economy. After all, commodities fluctuate in cycles, and so do jobs related to that.
Apologise - off-post. but does anyone know whats happening to Panama housing market currently? Smary git of an aquaintance bought off-plan condo about 12 months ago. Would hate to think prices were falling….!
The only thing that I have “Heard” is that Panama is friendly to US citizens and that housing was very affordable….
PANama VERY affordable. If people in my industry can afford for retirement….
Hot humid, buggy, no I am not speaking of FL..!
I have been following Panama some. In general the economy there is strong, much more like Colombia or Brazil than Central America. I was in Costa Rica (historically the wealthiest CA country) a couple of weeks ago and had a chance to talk to a native for quite awhile about housing. He said prices in Panama were slightly cheaper overall than in CR, but he also said you could buy a 1000 sq ft condo in a nice part of San Jose, CR for $75K. So I conclude - from prices I see coming out of Panama - that most gringos overpay by at least 50% relative to locals. If you can maintain separate markets, and resell to gringos, fine, but when the market goes down, the gringo premium will go down or disappear.
Panama City has a ritzy area with a high end condo market (a la Miami) and a lot of really nice, lightly-populated areas in beaches asnd mountains that are getting moved into by non-natives. I think in general it could be a pretty nice place to live part of the year. But if you don’t speaka da lingua yo creo you gwine overpay.
Paul, that is the caveat.. gringos overpay, if you are related/dating/married to a native, then prices for everything are cheaper.
Here is a Pacific Northwest story for you. Our new receptionist asks me where I live and we tell her we rent, she is a bit surprised, but comes right back with ‘well prices are coming down in Pullman (WA) so it is good to wait.” I start to think, great, people are getting it. But then she continues, “that is why I’m flipping a house in Palouse (WA).”
Palouse? (As in a tiny rural town of 900 northeast of Pullman, in the middle of nowhere, that has lost 100 citizens since the last census.)
“Real Estate just keeps going up in Palouse. Everyone is moving out from Pullman because it is such a great place to live.”
The last ripples of the housing bubble are washing up on the shores of Palouse, WA as the national housing bubble tide has long since withdrawn to expose everyone swimming naked.
Housing prices drop in Fraser Valley. Don’t worry, it’s just “seasonal”:
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/story.html?id=99ead9f0-b662-4fe7-b4e2-3333c92d9a3d&k=59016
The latest housing market statistics show the average Fraser Valley house price has declined for the second month in a row, reaching $511,176 in November.
That price is the lowest for detached homes since March, reported the Fraser Valley Real Estate Board.
Realtors look at the shift as nothing more than a seasonal slump, and economists are uncomfortable calling it a price trend other than to say it follows evidence of the market slipping into equilibrium.