Bits Bucket And Craigslist Finds For December 20, 2007
Please post off-topic ideas, links and Craigslist finds here.
Examining the home price boom and its effect on owners, lenders, regulators, realtors and the economy as a whole.
Please post off-topic ideas, links and Craigslist finds here.
Calling for 75 billion…. Why don’t these clowns quit screwing around and call for a trillion or two! Will this insanity ever stop.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6e69275e-ae75-11dc-97aa-0000779fd2ac.html
Those clammoring for massive moral-hazard-inducing bailouts doubtless have already placed their bets.
Debt Offensive:
I’m reporting from the green felt jungle, and it’s easy to see what happened after we agent oranged the debt canopy, and took a look inside…
Why not just describe the proceedings for what they are, a craps game being played by desperate men and women, playing catchup.
The moneys we hear being doled out are mere markers from the house, and we’ve signed away the future, to keep playing.
A $933 billion annual budget doesn’t qualify as fiscal stimulus?? What are they looking for, a direct taxpayer gift to the mortgage industry?
AG would prefer to see helicopter drops of cash into FB’s living rooms.
OT but still…Cramer’s flip-flop: ‘I’ve evolved’
The ‘Mad Money’ host who beseeches his viewers to ‘buy, buy, buy’ hot stocks has written a new book warning that individual investors almost never beat the market.
Did Cramer write the book last weekend, or was he writing it as he was telling his viewers to BUY BUY BUY BUY?
A Proposal for Reviving the Credit Markets,
Bail out anyone!
http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2007/12/19/a-proposal-for-reviving-the-credit-markets/
This proposal really got favorable reviews, NOT.
“Here’s an alternate idea: If you make a bad investment, be prepared to take your lumps. I don’t care if it’s an investment bank, hedge fund, pension fund or foreign investor. You screw up, you take the fall.”
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We can’t allow this in America. What would be left for the manipulators of the economy? There is lot of money in manipulating the economy via finance.
Jas
This is a good proposal. The mortgage lenders take a big hit, because they sell their mortgages at a steep discount. A similar system worked very well in the Depression and in the end actually made money for the feds.
The only real purpose of this proposal, is to allow the credit markets to function again by getting market prices established for the toxic waste. Why not just sell enough of it in the open market to establish a price and tell everyone (banks, pension funds, hedgies, etc.) to mark their junk to market, not to model. That would do the same thing. The proposal also assumes that whent the smoke clears all the banks will be solvent and have sufficient reserves to go on their merry way. No proof, just an assertion.
As Krugman said recently, this is a problem of solvency. And I’m getting more and more convinced that the insurance problem is going to be huge. That might even hurt Goldman. And then, looming over the horizon, we have the problems that will come along when the option ARM, Alt-A and prime resets start. Oh, and the other securitization products (credit cards, cars, industrial equipment, etc) get bad.
This won’t be over until everyone is convinced that the asset backed bonds have only good loans in their securitization pools. That means loans made to people with enough verified income to pay their debts. It is going to take a long time.
The problem is getting people to *buy* this toxic stuff. This proposal will buy some of it, which is why I like it. I agree we are facing a host of troubles and this alone won’t fix it. But, one step in the right direction.
I would actually expect the proposal as described (starting with a 30% haircut and going up from there) would leave the financial industry generally bankrupt. Which is about right. That will require additional fixes but at least we’ll get operational markets and some recognition of the size of the mess.
Wrong. The problem is people wanting to sell this stuff. If no one had to sell, then all would be fine.
Oh, but they want to sell because the loans in them are going into default at crazy high rate, with crazy large losses on each default.
So, the problem is that people won’t buy houses. Or, is the problem that people have to sell houses.
Why not just have the govt. skip the middel men and just buy all the houses going into foreclsoure? Then the securities don’t have losses and people won’t have to sell them, and people wouldn’t mind buying them.
BECAUSE, if you made a proposal that the govt. would buy houses at list price and sell them off at $.50 on the dollar, “just to get the marekt moving” poeple would see this for the BAILOUT at tax payer expense that it is.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071220/ap_on_bi_ge/bush_mortgage_crisis;_ylt=ArPqpOlWIE3TVbi.btdFoMZu24cA
President Bush signs mortgage tax forgiveness bill . How about we just forgive all debts nationwide starting right now? Immediate debtors relief now or we march on washington with pitchforks. We don’t need no stinkin debts.
But… but that would require PAYING people enough money to be able to BUY things instead of merely letting them hang themselves on endless CREDIT and DEBT! The horror - the sheeple being PAID a LIVING WAGE!!! Can’t have that!
“There are some mildly encouraging signs that basement valuations for these mortgages are emerging as desperate fundseekers and well-heeled risk takers find each other. Citadel’s purchase of $3 billion in debt held by troubled E*Trade Financial, for example, valued those assets at 27 cents on the dollar. Such a low valuation will provide cold comfort for those sitting on piles of mortgage-linked products, but it is likely only a floor representing the low quality of those particular assets and the particularly urgent needs of the seller.”
ESTABLISH A FLOOR? THERE IS ALREADY A FLOOR… IT IS ZERO.
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I missed the part about how the Bankers cough back their bonuses for the past 10 years. I assume that’s in there, now that I’m paying for what they produced, turns out.
RE: The bill to the taxpayer was considerable, about $125 billion, but the damage to the wider economy was minimal because the crisis was so well contained.
The current subprime virus is far more difficult to quarantine.
Where is this clown getting his S&L bail-out numbers from?
Everything I remembering reading regarding the crisis indicated the total cost to the taxpayer was over$500 billion.
Quarter of $75bil to clean up this mess which is 10X worse?
WTF ?
Banksters better increase the size of their proposed “bailout”…
BofA CEO: Ken Lewis said he is now worried even borrowers
with strong credit scores may not make mortgage payments.
He said pure economic reasons with moral compunction have
resulted in “a huge change in social attitude towards default.”
Ot oh, it was never contained and won’t be for a long, long time as eferyone on this board predicted. Sub-prime, alt-a, prime, all is in much trouble.
First two entries. Second one particularly.
2002 lows next year? Put holders would be making returns along the line of that subprime hedge fund someone linked yesterday. I’ve got ‘em - do you have them?
Oops
http://www.hamzeianalytics.net
Barbera is frightening. It would worry me more if his recent calls had been better. But, having checked his silver forecast I had to recheck the contents of my safe… yep, it’s still there
Barbera’s forecast is illogical. How can we simultaneously end up with housing down 40%, stocks down to 2002 lows, and gold at $10,000? Why would all other assets except gold deflate in the environment of currency collapse and hyper-inflation?
If inflation truly gets out of control - to hyper-inflation levels and collapse of monetary system as we know it - then housing will be at least just as good a bet as gold, probably better. JMHO.
NYChick,
Because gold is no one’s debt. It has no master. It is what it is and it is completely transparent.
News flash: The money you have “deposited” in the bank is not there. If we the people ever tried to withdraw just 5% of our funds, we would discover that it simply isn’t there.
You really just have to ask yourself two questions:
What is money?
What is a dollar?
If you can answer those two questions, then you can understand how gold could get to $10,000 per ounce. If you can’t answer them, well …
Return of capital seems tons more important that return on capital, at this point in the game.
I can understand how gold could get to $10,000 per ounce. What I do not understand is why would other real assets deflate while paper currency collapses all around them? Sorry, but that’s nonsense.
I lived through hyper-inflation. Housing - along with other “real” assets - is a very good preserver of value when paper money becomes worthless. Either all assets deflate, or, if there’s hyperinflation - all real assets inflate.
“If inflation truly gets out of control - to hyper-inflation levels and collapse of monetary system as we know it - then housing will be at least just as good a bet as gold, probably better. JMHO.”
Ya can’t live in a gold brick, nor eat one.
We are only used to physical money in a cash vein, and it’s just a symbol of who and what we are as a country, nothing more.
And the Symbolism Liberation Army overseas, is repatrioting symbols, right back at us…
I think housing may be a preserver of fundamental value, but the current values of properties are inflated and will have to drop back down to non-bubble-inflated levels before they will preserve anything.
Gold has intrinsic value of nearly zero. Its only value for what it is used in manufacturing and as civilization advances gold is used less and less ( please spare me the claims of people who know nothing about electronics regarding the amount of gold used in it - ask the recovery businesses - modern electronics uses so little of it that high tonage recoveries are cost effective even at today’s gold prices ).
“What is money?”
“What is a dollar?”
Money, among other things, is a medium of exchange. A dollar is a unit of this medium of exchange.
Some claim that the dollar is worthless, that it has been created out of thin air and thus is not backed by anything. I contend that the dollar IS indeed backed; The dollar is backed by everything that is for sale, everything it can be traded for, which is most everything.
Elsewhere on this blog are complaints that U.S. dollars held by foreigners are being used to buy up U.S. assets. Duh, what does one expect them to be used for?
I turns out these “thin air” dollars aren’t so worthless after all. Foreigners holding U.S. dollars are giving the term “Buy American” a new meaning.
We’ll have to use Yap Stones, or Wampum, or beads, or other recognized substitutes of paper money, in lieu of mellow yellow?
NY, maybe you could look at the ratio of gold. If gold went to $10,000, would an average house go to $2,812,500? I highly doubt it.
Housing vs Gold as a investment 101
Pro’s Gold-
Low transaction costs.
easily traded, 24/7 and affordable
long term store of wealth
Low carry costs, zero if sitting safely in your vault
low supply, cant just build more.
Pro’s Housing
Long term store of wealth
Thats it my friends, housing has high carrying cost and high transaction fee’s and most people cant afford it. Housing is not a good short term, medium term investment vehical. This is why once housing is in the dumper it stays there for a long long time…housing might not beat inflation for another 10 years.
Excellent post, slo!
RE: I can understand how gold could get to $10,000 per ounce.
I think one of our HBB gold bugs already posted that a reconcilation of the amount of gold in Ft. Knox & West
Point vs. the dollars in world circulation would put
gold @ $41,000k per oz.
$10k seems rather piddling in comparison.
NY, maybe you could look at the ratio of gold. If gold went to $10,000, would an average house go to $2,812,500? I highly doubt it.
Yes, it will. When I lived through hyper-inflation, a loaf of bread suddenly cost as much as a new car cost only a few days ago. Did housing also increase exponentailly? Of course it did. And by the way, real goods - housing, food, cars, gas for the car - were more in demand than gold (because of fears the government would confiscate gold, just as they did with freezing bank accounts).
If you had a house at least it stayed yours, unlike gold coins under the mattress that people came and stole from you, or precious possessions in a bank vault of a bankrupt bank, which likely no longer will be there when you try to get them out.
Gold bugs seriously need a reality check, if they believe all other assets will deflate in a hyper-inflation environment, while their physical gold and gold stocks will be safe with society collapsing all around them.
Don’t forget property can be taken too, and how much does property (renting) tax run now days. Its thousands of dollars per year. The only thing they dont have there hands in is coins in your vault. When it all collapses it will be silver thats highest in demand, a silver eagle buying a tank of gas ect.. The rich will turn to gold and the avg joe to silver.
When it all collapses it will be silver thats highest in demand, a silver eagle buying a tank of gas ect..
What is a silver dollar? Nothing. It’s just means of the exhange. “When it all collapses”, people turn to barter - real stuff for real stuff, bread for clothes, grains for gas, etc.
Silver/gold is NOT some real useful “stuff” that one could consume, it’s just means of the exchange, it’s just another form of “money”. “Money” becomes USELESS in hyper-inflation environment, because it becomes impossible to put “value” on money. It’s much easier to trade consumable “stuff” for consumable “stuff”.
At least from my experience. People turned to barter. For example - teachers salaries were paid in form of “bags of grains” which then further could be exchanged for “gas” or “food” or “clothes” at the market. Gold/silver/paper money? Useless. How would you know how many silver coins should you pay for a loaf of bread? One? Two? A hundred? But if you have a new pairs of boots, you could probably find someone who has bread who would trade with you. Barter - works. Money - doesn’t.
Silver will re-establish it self as money, in this process the free market will establish prices for things. Silver will always be silver, foods rot, items lose there value. People will want and use silver. Its been like that for thousands of years, its just this last 75 yrs we got off track, way off track…
I’d rather not invest in stocks until the S&P is under 1,200, even for the long term.
I recall a WSJ article saying stocks were cheap based on historical PEs. But that was based on inflated, peak level Es. Now that some of the related losses are rolling in, looks like the Dow PE is nearly 50. Is that historically cheap? Even so, for 2008, which may be the toughest economic years since the early 1990s, if not the mid 1970s (let’s not even talk about the 1930s), the estimated PE is 16 based on today’s prices. Right.
try selling your biz for 16x
if it’s not the only quarry in town you won’t get it.
Here’s a link to historical P/E
http://www.djindexes.com/mdsidx/index.cfm?event=showAvgStats
Hey flat, 16X, HA! If I buy a business to run, I won’t pay more than 7X. (granted, that’s dealing with small, local businesses, but still). I’m not going to wait 16 years (or more) to get back my original investment. 16X would only be about a 6% return.
A 6% return subject to the vagaries of the market place is ridiculous. In this market a 12% return is low, reliable Foreign Government Securities can be purchased yielding 12% and these securities can be hedged in futures market.
Agreed. Hoz, do tell of these securities of which you speak!
Nassau foreclosure filings down, Suffolk up
http://tinyurl.com/3bdxjv
Less surprising are the figures from Suffolk and Queens. Suffolk had 500 filings last month, up 54 percent from November 2006. There was one filing per 1,078 households. In Queens there were 1,338 filings last month, up 55 percent from a year earlier. There was one filing per 622 households.
The Nassau numbers don’t jibe with what area industry insiders are seeing. Local housing counseling agencies are reporting 10-fold increases in calls from people seeking foreclosure prevention assistance.
“There’s something wrong with those numbers,” said Todd Yovino, who runs Huntington-based Island Advantage Realty, which specializes in selling foreclosed properties for banks. His inventory in the metropolitan area is up more than threefold this year.
There are many anecdotes of mortgage holders deliberately dragging their feet on foreclosures in severely affected areas because they don’t want any more REOs. Perhaps this is happening in Nassau.
Great…..just another reason for my friends to say, ‘it’s different here’
Shoot me now.
nassau is just not pleasent place to live imo unless you are flush with cash
the $3.40 a gallon gas + suv crowd must be doing wonders for the nouveau riche land barrons of lawng island
anyone been to the malls this season? lots of buyers or lookie loos?
I’ve been to the malls in cash-flush parts of Ohio — lots of IT and insurance desk jobs here. The malls are packed with people hanging bags off of strollers. I went to have lunch at one and the parking lot was full — on a weekday.
I’ve seen the same thing in Tucson. OTOH, last weekend, I went past an Ace Hardware that had Xmas gear marked down by 1/3.
I stopped at a Target the other to pick up some vitamins for my wife. While not dead, it definitely did not feel “Christmas Frenzy” either. More like it is during normal times.
Typically during the last week up to Christmas eve Folks even during the worst economic downturns will get out and splurge for the upcoming christmas holidays and new years celebrations . They may pinch and cut back prior to that last week (excepting day after thanksgiving) but then they go all out the last week up to christmas eve. It is Human nature. Malls and shops will be packed everywhere in US last week before christmas eve, but then after new years holiday weekend is over consumer spending will drop sharply over a cliff.
Ditto for NYC…
I went to Northpark Mall in Dallas yesterday on a misguided mission to buy a new purse that I wanted. Packed. Could not find a parking place. This was at 1 p.m. on a Wednesday.
The Big D = Big Hair
Is bouffant maintenance sustainable, or does one have to take out a teaser-rate loan to keep up appearances?
The bouffant sector would be a safe haven investment during tough times. My Texas kin would be dead in their graves before they would allow their hair to go flat (and my granny proved this).
I’m a regular at the post office, at least once a day. This week 6 to 7 deep package drop off lines (not the norm) 10:30AM, 2PM and 4PM on various days.
Went to the mall here outside the Sacramento area (pretty much ground zero to the NorCal foreclosure epicenter) yesterday. No problem parking. No problem getting waited on. Didn’t seem too different than a normal day, except for the sales. Macy’s had clearance sales that were alleged to be 50% off products that had already been discounted by 40%. I still didn’t buy…….
Looks like the Rolex watch crowd is tanking.
http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2007/12/20/alpha_omega_owner_leaves_amid_rumors_report_says
Northpark always seems packed because there is so little parking and it’s so hard to get in and out of there, even on slower shopping days. But I definitely can believe that people still are buying the higher-end “aspirational” stuff Northpark-type stores sell. Last hurrah on the card, perhaps?
For whatever reason…
The watch that comes free with a kid’s McMeal, tells exactly the same time as a Rolex or a Patek Philippe.
I keep an eye on eBay for high-end toyz: workstation class computers, titanium road bicycles, skiing, skydiving and scuba gear. Prices are way down this year!!
I now know more about rolex watches than I ever wanted, thanks to recent radio commercials.
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December 20, 2007
Housing & Inflation
Good morning, HBBers.
Housing was and will be the single most important factor, or variable, affecting the inflation rate in the US during 2008. That is because it directly and indirectly affects the “aggregate demand,” of which the consumer spending is the most dominant component, and increase, or decrease, in the consumer spending determines the inflation rate at the margin.
But for housing led increase in consumption, the inflation rate during 2003-07 would have been anywhere from 2-4% lower than whatever inflation rate that you think has existed, i.e., housing bubble was responsible for preventing deflation and allowing the Fed to pursue the policy of controlled inflation.
For 2008, here are my forecasts for consumer spending and inflation rate based on what happens to the housing prices:
Housing prices +10% –> consumer spending to grow bet 3-4% real rate and inflation rate of 2-4%
Housing prices +0% –> consumer spending to grow bet 0 to 1% real rate and inflation rate of 0-2%
Housing prices -10% –> consumer spending to grow bet –3 to -1% real rate and inflation rate of –2% to 0%
Housing prices -15% –> consumer spending to grow bet –5 to -3% real rate and inflation rate of –3% to -1%
It Is the Housing, Stupid!
(That has become the most important variable as to what will happen to the US economy).
Jas
-10% is in the bag for 08
even Gary Watts will cough that up
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“-10% is in the bag for 08″
Assuming that, how much do you think that overall consumption would be affected? My numbers are in the original post.
Jas
-2%
we’ll borrow the rest and get to a negative 2% savings rate
inflate or die !
Of course it is. That’s why Paulson and Arnold are trying to pee on fires in CA
Actually, it might just be that having exposed the soft underbelly of derivative financing the housing market becomes immaterial at some time in the not too distant future. After the insurers go belly up and banks are forced to take massive writedowns, an upsurge in housing probably wouldn’t do much. Right now, though it’s really tearing the pasties off the financial boob jobs.
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“After the insurers go belly up and banks are forced to take massive writedowns…”
That alone will take down the “cridit junkie” (Davis Roche) econonmy down. As banks lose capital their ability ot lend, or push debt on households, would be severely limited.
Credit is the blood supply of the capitalistic system. Abuse of credit is a very bad thing.
Jas
As the banks lose capital the FED lends (gives) them more.
How many billions so far since August? I don’t know who the banks will lend to ? Right whats the next bubble? Or as some are saying no new bubble a deflationary reset is happening where all colateral is sold to pay debts. Thats a depression. I still think Central Banks will fight against that
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“I still think Central Banks will fight against that…”
Yes, belief in the powers of the central planners is very strong, especially, among inflationists. In another year we will learn about the impotence of Fed, but until then people will believe that Fed will do this and Fed will do that. Fed will put money into banks, but not much will flow into economy as Greenspan admitted happened during early 1990s. Things are worse than in early 1990s.
Jas
birthday suit economix
“Yes, belief in the powers of the central planners is very strong, especially, among inflationists.”
Fear not belief. Look what the FED just did a few years ago lowering interest rates to 1%, look what that did to the price of housing ? That was inflation.
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” Look what the FED just did a few years ago lowering interest rates to 1%, look what that did to the price of housing ? That was inflation.”
They can’t play that same game of blowing bubbles at all times. They have shot their wad and no mass.
Jas
“They can’t play that same game of blowing bubbles at all times. They have shot their wad and no mass.”
No they can’t keep blowing bubbles. I don’t see how you can be so sure its finally over for bubble blowing this time? Bernake is a money printer and great depression historian he has already talked about his printing press and helicopter money drops. I beleive he also floated an idea about a tax on savings accounts a few years back.
America is getting old and thats deflationary all by itself, I expect a dollar carry trade as retirees invest overseas for yeild I expect a third world investment bubble as the final straw to empty the boomers bank accounts to 0. Third world buys commodities with American investment money. Money that the FED is injecting right now.
Let’s analyze. Your hypothetical data implies a negative wealth effect of 1% in GDP for each 5% fall in housing. 5% in housing=$1 trillion in value. 1% of GDP is about $160 billion. So your analysis means (roughly) that for every $6 lost in housing wealth $1 will not be spent/earned in the general economy.
I’d say that’s a little high (that you are overstating the negative wealth effect slightly), but probably correct to within a factor of 2.
Addendum - I got your change in GDP a little mixed up with your change in inflation - your negative wealth effect is actually greater than my analysis. So I think you overstate it, especially since you have it accelerating as you go from -10% to -15%, and -15% doesn’t seem that radical to me.
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“…-15% doesn’t seem that radical to me.”
Me too. Don’t you think that is will result in 4-6% less consumption compared with home prices remaining flat for the year?
Hence, depression and deflation are unavoidable. Some prices will still go up, but most prices, including gasoline, will decline. The spring home sale season should give us definitive idea about what will happen to the home prices for 2008.
A noted economist from John Hopkins (Henke?) said that CA, FL and NV are already in recession. He forgot OH, MI, and many other states. He did say, though, that US would have recession during 2008.
Never before has housing been so central to the economic outlook.
Jas
Sorry for the delay. Am enjoying your posts.
No, I don’t think -15% vs. 0 would result in a difference of 4-6% in GDP. If house prices go flat for 12 months from here, I think we avoid recession - call it +1% (and the stock market would have an up year). With house prices down 10%, I think GDP is likely to be in the -1% to 0 - even though this would appear to be below what is currently being forecast, I think it is close to being in the market, so I don’t think it would be a calamity for equities. With 10-15%, which is what I think likely nationwide (much worse in bubble areas) a 1% drop in GDP (which after all is almost 2% in per capita GDP, a damn big decline) looks about right to me. So I suppose 1% for each 5% drop in housing value sounds about right.
As for the inflation/deflation debate, I became a little more “stagflationary” when I saw that BB was going to be more accommodative than I thought. Now, in the short run, given the bond market and the price of Cu, and the stalling oujt of gold, I think inflation may come down a bit. However, inflation in the long run is based to a great extent on how much easing the Fed does (and there may well be some fiscal stimulus to get the string pulled) - and I believe this shouldn’t be underestimated. I expect inflation 3 years from now to be higher than today.
Your inflation projections are not fact based.
The current drivers in the inflation increase are Food and Fuel (gas, heat etc.)
Those will not stop because of housing. Both items are relatively inflexible based upon demand.
So housing can fall, consumer spending can fall (on most things) but there can be inflation because of those two classes of items.
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Fuel prices will fall dramatically IF the housing takes the economy into recession followed by depression. In late 2001 (economy was in recession) the gasoline prices in SoCal were below $1, even 87.9c at one gas station. I predict the gasoline prices to fall below $2 IF the housing prices fall by 15%. We shall see.
Jas
In my view, the demand for food and fuel are quite flexible. Look at how people freak out about a few cent increase in the price of gas (even though they spent tens of thousands on their SUV). Suddenly everyone is buying hybrids and cutting back on travel. Food is also an area where I’m sure most people could cut back significantly and not starve. I probably spend triple on my food consumption now compared to when I was a college student. Switching back to rice and beans four or five days a week would be perfectly doable if I felt I had to.
I think most people have been so flush with credit these last few years that there is plenty of room for a drop in demand for everything. I can see demand for food and fuel being inelastic in poor societies where every penny counts, everyone rides the bus, everything is recycled, and most people have just enough for the bare necessities. Here in the U.S., however, I think the majority of people are able adjust and divert their consumption pretty easily in response to price increases.
“Housing prices -10% –> consumer spending to grow bet –3 to -1% real rate and inflation rate of –2% to 0%”
This sounds a like a reasonable scenario for 2008. I assume Housing wiil decline nationwide at least -10% adjusted for inflation
That is an average decline all over US ; many areas will fall harder and faster of course.
Note that one cannot “adjust for inflation” since wages are NOT increasing. Ah, but prices for things we need - food, energy, healthcare - are increasing. So, in the end, that means the would-be home buyer has LESS money to spend on his McMansions. This will be devasting for housing prices, and makes me wonder if the “inflate or die” idea will hold up in the long run. $10 a gallon gas on today’s salaries would cause more than a slight problem…
Jas,
So you are saying that the inflation that we measure of 4% for the past 5 years was masking an underlying deflation. That means that a 10% gain in housing that resulted in 4% increase in consumer spending had to overcome a “natural” 4% deflation. If this is true, then a drop of 10% would result in a 8% drop in spending on top of a “natural” 4% deflation that we should have been experiencing.
Maybe I am missing something here, but if deflation was headed off by artificial “inflation” then what “inflates” must “deflate” as the debts fall. So we need to get back to where we “should” be.
People will continue to spend money on food and necessities so that demand should remain “constant”. If people are losing jobs and have less income then demand for everything else will fall pushing prices down on everything but food and necessities. The price of food does not have to increase in nominal terms in order to increase in relative terms. If my pay check is cut in half then the price of food might as well have doubled.
The one issue that I never hear you talk about, Jas, is the DEMAND for the dollar. I will agree with you that as this credit crunch unwinds the supply of the dollar will fall thus “deflating” the supply of money. But if in the process of deflationary pressures and economic turmoil the world loses trust/confidence in the US economy then world wide DEMAND for the dollar will fall off of a cliff. If demand falls faster than supply then you get inflation. Demand can go to 0 even as the supply is deflating.
If we keep our current federal programs and spending then falling income tax revenue will lead to increasing federal debt. The baby booms start retiring next year and medical expenses are going through the roof. This will lead to more government debt. If the government becomes the borrower of last resort then we can still have inflation even as no one in the public is willing to take on debt.
What would deflation do the the national debt? It would cause it to vastly increase as a percentage of GDP because GDP will fall as the debt grows. Clearly the government must continue to borrow money or cut benefits. If they cut benefits then consumer spending will fall even further!
I completely agree with you about the Federal Reserve not being able to push on a string to the market, but you seem to forget the power of the federal government to pull on the string for everyone else. Once people realize that the Federal Government is “pulling” and thus “stealing” from them demand will fall and people will switch to alternatives that are harder for the government to steal.
–
“That means that a 10% gain in housing that resulted in 4% increase in consumer spending had to overcome a “natural” 4% deflation.”
Lot more than 10% per year gain in home prices accounted for extra 4% inflation rate due to huge boost in debt-driven demand. Yes, we could have head Japanese style deflation for the past 5 years in the absence of the housing bubble. Anyway, we should get evidence of this hypothesis over the next few years.
Jas
I had a lunch with a friend who is moving out of Michigan to Washington DC. She bought her house back in 1998, put 5% down at the time gained about 30% appreciation over the past 9 years and now is looking at selling her house in the spring (moving by July.) Today that appreciation has all dried up and she is now in the hole. A neighbor across from her listed his house aggressively and is priced about $15k below her original price putting her near a break even which includes losing her minor 5% equity. Also, the house across the street is nicer and slightly larger than hers with a two car garage. So, she is definitely in the negative equity scenario by maybe $20-30k, perhaps even more because her neighbor’s house hasn’t sold and very few buyers are around.
So, we discussed what she might have to do. After realtor costs, the negative equity situation, and a slow moving market she may have to show up with $50-$70k at closing to payoff the mortgage and realtor costs. She is a busy person and doesn’t have time to do FSBO. So she is considering simply walking away from the home since it is highly doubtful any rebound will occur to better her home’s value next year, realizing it will probably lose more value.
Her dilemma is she has the $70k if she taps $20k from her 401(k) and uses the rest from her savings. But that is a lot of money to lose and she is thinking maybe the hit to her credit report is better than having to let go of the $70k of liquid assets she has in the bank. So, what to do.
Is it smart for her to keep her cash and foreclose? Or should she just eat the loss and keep her credit score? Basically, is a credit score with the $70k loss???
I’m thinking she should keep the $70k.
Try a short sale first.
If she bought in 1998, can she rent the house out for now to cover the mortgage?
The short sale is great idea. thanks.
Regarding renting, she doesn’t really want to do the rent thing since that is not so easy especially with her living in DC and the house being in Michigan. But I think she could rent it (don’t really know her payment on the house but it should be manageable considering the house’s value right now is in the $240k range)
If the lender will agree in principle, she can price under the “aggressive” sellers in the neighborhood and maybe find a buyer at something the lender will swallow.
Hope she is planning on renting in D.C. If she’s taking a bath on her Michigan house she’d have to be nuts to buy in D.C. right now.
I don’t think so on the renting.
I can’t think of places in MI where someone will pony up $1500-1800 rent a month for a basic house. (Those amounts are based upon a 30 year fixed at 6% and MI property taxes and insurance.)
It would have to be a very large ‘executive’ type home - think 4-5 bedrooms, 3-4 baths, big garage, etc.
The ‘no garage’ comment plus the price gives a hint that the house is not exactly in the ‘executive home’ league.
In the Ann Arbor area alone there are nearly 200 houses for rent (and most also are for sale) in the $1000 -2000 range. Detroit area - including the collar counties - is even more flooded with such rentals. Ditto Lansing, Battle Creek, Kalamazoo. And up here in the northern most area of the lower Penninsula which did not have any auto plants but the economy is based upon tourism, a house with 1998 price of $240,000 house rents for $600-800.
IF she can rent it - and that is a huge IF - she will probably not cover the entire mortgage, taxes and insurance. (And taxes will go up because she will lose the homestaed exemption.)
So it is deed in lieu of foreclosure, foreclosure, keep paying or drop the price until it sells and ante up the difference.
The first to give her a real serious credit rating hit. That is not something to be taken lightly. Bad credit rating = harder to rent a place there for several years and getting turned down for jobs and higher interest on car loans and credit cards.
Only she can decide.
That’s not really true. There are several people here in Birmingham getting $1500 for non-executive homes. My inlaws are renting in town for $1300/mo. for a 1100 sq foot duplex and that was the best they found last summer. A couple rentals by me are in the $2500-$3500/mo range though those are still sitting and those are the “executive caliber” you are talking about. What they end up renting for I don’t know but seems people are doing in the $2k plus range on the larger nicer homes for rentals.
if she’s going to DC and getting a steady job won’t the banks garnish
- 1998 wow thats incredable
Well that’s a question I didn’t know the answer to and neither did she. If you actually have the liquid assets to pay the loan loss, can the banks garnish/force you use your cash assets?
Yes. 1998! It’s Michigan and we’ve been going through this housing downturn since 2004 so it is effecting people as far back as 1998. I bought in 1996 and live in a very well respected upper income city and my home’s value is getting pretty close it my original purchase price leaving me with maybe $40k of equity from what I bought in 1996.
She may go bust, and if she does, the 401K (if not the cash) may be protected. But the bank’s costs in all of this might be more than the $70K it would get.
The question is, is it a bank? If so she may be able to negotiate a short sale. If the loan has been securitized, that might be hard to do, but it is also less likely the creditor will get it’s act together to go after her. “Special servicer” companies are hired to manage loans in default for mortgage investment pools. I imagine those companies are overwhelmed, and the process is getting out of control.
Don’t send good money after bad and don’t use priviliged assets such as a 401K which are protected in bankruptcy to cover the shortfall.
THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT DO NOT TAKE $$$ OUT OF A 401K IRA TO PAY FOR THE SHORTFALL
wow DC area is still late 05 pricing
FL looks like 04
sorry for your loss
Chris,
What town is your friend in…..somewhere around Detroit?? If you’re in Birmingham the ‘burb, I’m south of you, Downriver.
My friend and I both live in Birmingham. She is near Pierce School
Chris, I know exactly where she lives. Ah, you people are in sooo much trouble.
I’m looking for some property in the Birmingham area, willing to pay 25% of list (yes, 75% off). I have the $$$s, have the time, will ultimately get what I’m looking for.
You’d not believe what some of the RE people there have said to me, the names they’ve called me. But what do I care? I’m just looking for a good deal. I’m telling them deal with me else I’ll deal with the banks after foreclosure, your choice.
Did she do a HELOC in those 9 years? It’s not making sense to me that she’s that close to the edge after that long with that much appreciation. you quote aren’t making sense to me. I bought a condo in VT in 97 with 5% down and if I had hung onto it, I could have totally undercut any of the comps and walk way with a little change in my pocket.
(Sorry, I know it doesn’t help your friend, but I’m curious…)
The situation as described doesn’t surprise me a bit. If friend indeed got 30% appreciation, she’s probably lost most if not all of it in the last couple years.
This summer I ran comps in a part of the town Chris lives in, and they were dropping like a rock. If friend is in the same area it’s the same, IMHO.
She did not HELOC. She bought her place for $260k in ‘98. It went up to about $330k at the peak in ‘03-’04. Okay that’s a bit shy from a 30% gain but close. The problem is the neighbor across the street with a slightly larger house and two car garage (she has a an old 1920 garage/shed that doesn’t really fit a car) and his house listed at $260k and recently droped to $235k. She’s thinking her place may get $210k (original loan was for $245k. Add on another $10k in realtor fees and the risk she may only get $190-200k for the house and she is underwater around $45k-$75k. So, not far from the rough discussion she and I had yesterday.
I was seeing a gal this summer whose house backs up to Kenning Park on the other side of Woodward. I had been comping the brick bungalows and ranches in that area.
On one side of her was a rental, the other side a foreclosure. Within a block were a couple other rentals asking $1600 and going vacant; rental next door to her was $1200. House is a bit run down. Also nearby a couple other foreclosures and yet a couple more listings at wishing prices and going begging. Rental next door was $1200.
I’m not a city boy, but I actually kinda liked that area, but it seemed to be hurting too. Your friend is in a bind. 70K is a lot to throw away.
(original loan was for $245k. Add on another $10k in realtor fees and the risk she may only get $190-200k for the house and she is underwater around $45k-$75k.
Loan was for $245K in ‘98, she should owe only about $215K now. The $50K she has in the bank (ie, without the $20K in 401k from your post) means she can sell for $175K, pay the realtor fee of $10K, before insolvency. So at $190K, she is left with $15K in the bank.
(Are you quite sure that a HELOC isn’t involved?)
She bought her place for $260k in ‘98. [snip] She’s thinking her place may get $210k (original loan was for $245k). Add on another $10k in realtor fees and the risk she may only get $190-200k for the house and she is underwater around $45k-$75k.
Sounds like she overpaid for the place in the first place, that seems like a lot for 1998.
BTW, after 9 years of paying mortgage, wasn’t she getting some principal paid off?! She could have refinanced when interest rates were low… not to take money out, you know… old fashioned refinance.
Seems to me her problem wasn’t trying to make extra payments now and then. She spent 9 years paying interest only? May as well have rented.
So I did learn something today. She didn’t take money out but she did an interest only refi back in 2001 to help keep her monthly costs down since she went back to school for her MBA.
To the person asking about VW. No. She didn’t work for them. Basically finished her MBA at UofM and is off to do wealth management in DC. She plans to rent there for now
Is she working in government, or for a contractor? Attempting to walk away from big debts is going to cause a big red flag in the background checks. Paying ones debts is apparently still looked upon as important in some circles.
I don’t think that walking away from the house satisfies her debt. The bank’s recourse isn’t limited to taking the house. I suspect that if she removes her furniture even that might be considered fraud. I haven’t read any stories about banks suing the ex-homeowner for their losses after foreclosure, but it would seem they have a right to. It isn’t just a matter of credit score if she will still owe the bank after the dust settles. She needs to consult a lawyer, probably a bankruptcy lawyer, before making a decision to walk away.
The bank’s recourse isn’t limited to taking the house.
You are wrong. Stop giving legal conclusions without the degree.
That was my question. It sounds like this could be a nonrecourse loan since she didn’t HELOC and it sounds like she hadn’t refi’d. Assuming this is the original purchase money loan, she should find out whether the loan is non-recourse, which should be in the loan docs I would think. Then she could offer the short sale which may save the credit rating if she can pull it off (I don’t know how the credit rating is affected by short sale but logic would dictate it is less of a hit than just dumping the property back to the bank). Otherwise she might consider locking up a long term lease in DC then walking on the house. That would appear to be the logical sequence of events. Annscott makes a good point, this is attorney territory.
Let me guess, she works for VW and got relocated to DC?
I bought my house in Dearborn in ‘98 for $132K. At the
‘03 peak similar houses in my neighborhood were selling for $200-210K. Now they are listed for $150K and not selling. There’s a house down the street that has been for sale for SIX YEARS. It’s an ugly house with a goofy layout, but come on! Six years?!?!?!?
Scott,
Can you explain why it isn’t possible? Seems to me one of my mortgage agreements clearly stated that the contents of the house (all my stuff) were part of the guarantee. Sure, I should have worded my wondering more carefully.
Bank of America chief executive Ken Lewis told editors of the Wall Street Journal that he’s worried about borrowers with strong credit scores not making loan payments if the housing crisis worsens.
Such concerns by the head of California’s largest bank could trigger a tightening of credit availability beyond the subprime customer base.
“There’s been a change in social attitudes toward default,” Lewis told the Wall Street Journal. “We’re seeing people who are current on their credit cards but are defaulting on their mortgages. I’m astonished that people would walk away from their homes.”
Apparently even borrowers with strong credit scores are finding it easier to walk away from their mortgages, especially if they put little or no money down on houses and condos purchased for investment purposes.
http://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/stories/2007/12/17/daily28.html
“I’m astonished that people would walk away from their homes.”
And were you astonished when corporations walked away from their pension plans? Their health care plans?
Monkey see, monkey do.
“And were you astonished when corporations walked away from their pension plans? Their health care plans?”
Kudos to you for that one. Would make a great weekend topic. Morals for the rank and file while the corporate elite function void of morals or ethics. Sooner or later the populace will no longer function on ‘words’ but on ‘observed actions’. Maybe we will get back to ’show me (by you actions)’ and not ‘tell me (and therefore it is)”. Let’s get back to where you get credit not for saying it but for doing it.
This is such an excellent point. It made me think of the Japan situation and the typical attitude of the Japanese toward their employers (and employers toward their employees) and how those values were also evident in borrowers goign to great lengths to pay off their debts.
he’s worried about borrowers with strong credit scores not making loan payments if the housing crisis worsens
As these BofA idiots put way too much value in credit scores and not any on down payment, home appraisals, home prices.
Cry me a river, credit scores were much of the problem. Everyone in the past 6 years so fascinated with how easy they are to manipulate on the short term.
I thought they had complex computer algorism programs to calculate credit risk. (AKA Alan Greenspan).
I guess the computer genius did not put in any code for: Risk of person walking away from house?
They should have thought of that when they lobbied for that made it frequently impossible to walk away from credit card debt.
So much for try to post shortened links: http://aneyeontherealestatemarket.blogspot.com/2007/11/2005-bankruptcy-reform-hurts-those-that.html
Interesting Chris - my gut feel had been that we were at late-90’s prices here in Metro Detroit - this confirms it. If the house is in Birmingham, the east side suburbs could be approaching mid-90’s prices. That means a whole lot of homeowner’s are under-water. Cruising through the Grosse Pointe listings I saw a 3,000+ sq. ft repo listed at $79 sq. ft.
WHY do you have to pay a realtor? FSBO, and Why not just pay a lawyer $2500.. she should be able to find them easily. After all its the low paid paralegals that do all the work..
Does she have PMI? In that case would the bank even go after her?
Rent out the old house, even if it is at a loss. Take all her cash and put as a down on a new house, if she can get in at a low price. Walk from the old house and go bankrupt. She should be able to keep the equity in the new house, at least until the market crashes to the point that she’s upside-down on the new house.
Depending upon the details of recourse/non-recourse you need to carefully hide your assets and go bankrupt. Be sure to let 6-12 months pass before filing bankruptcy. Buy Gold/Silver and hold it (purchases of less than 10K at a time), there would be no record for the bankruptcy courts to get.
If it is a recourse loan then they may sue you, but if you file bankruptcy they cannot pursue that debt.
I paid $400 to get listed on the MLS and provided with a lock box. I then paid 2% commission to the buyers agent. If you can short sell then that is a good way to go.
I have made it my commitment to live debt free. Living debt free means I don’t need to worry much about my credit score. Consider bankruptcy as an opportunity to live debt free. You can always get service/rent if you “pre-pay” by a month or two. Besides, if your credit is in the tank, but you are earning $200/month in interest income then you have a good chunk of your “rent” covered and that will help you find a place to rent even with “bad” credit.
Defaulting on a loan has personal moral implications. You may be morally justified in bringing “justice” to the banks because the banks have admitted that they do not consider it wrong to “default” on their customers or to steal your wealth via inflation. They defaulted when they closed the gold window and provided no-recourse. Any losses they incur should be small compared to what you/society have paid into the banking/government system that they have unconstitutionally (illegally, immorally) created. Besides, if you don’t default and pay off your losses then the tax/inflation man will eventually force you to bail out everyone else.
When the rule of law is not followed it becomes survival of the fittest. In the future she should avoid getting into debt and try to keep her promises. If we don’t bring justice to the banks and change the behavior of society then our free society will end up in chaos and tyranny.
Not sure what to make of this. Asbury Park is “ordering” a developer to return to work after their project failed.
http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/jersey/index.ssf?/base/news-9/1198128962182250.xml&coll=1
Nearly two weeks after construction abruptly stopped at a luxury high rise in Asbury Park, city officials are holding the developer’s feet to the fire and ordering him to restart work or face legal action.
“We need Metro Homes to get back to work or get out of the way for someone else to do it,” Mayor Kevin Sanders said at yesterday’s City Hall news conference. “They are in violation of their legal agreement with the city and they have violated their commitment to the people of Asbury Park.”
Actually - this is standard practice. As part of the development process, you require the builder to submit a performance bond. The performance bond ensures the project will be completed. Otherwise, you can have a building that is half completed left in the middle of your town.
During the last tech bust, Intel walked away from a building in the middle of downtown Austin. For years, we were left with a 6 story concrete structure that was incomplete. It was an eyesore and an embarrassment.
I’m making a citizens arrest, and charging you with abruptly stopping construction.
give up the fico. i had a 630 fico in 2004. then i filed bk7 on $125,000 on 28 credit cards, $2500 per month min payments, march 2004 and my fico went down to 482. now i have 704 fico.
You had 28 credit cards?! 28??!! What were you doing?
drugs perhaps? 28 cards 125k wtf
–
Helping keep the US economy out of recession. Borrow-and spend or die economy! Fed would be powerless if households stop to borrow-and-spend. Ask the Japanese central bank.
It Is the Debt, Stupid!
Jas
living of credit cards, pay the min payments with cash advances. then at the end they shut me down , no more cash advances. i am on ss retirement and dont make $2500 per month. had to feed the family.
My FICO got slammed, too, when I lost a large business due to embezzlement. I stupidly signed my name for our AmEx LOC (ran about $200,000 per month on it until the ShtF). Within 60 days, my FICO took a hit. Because our capital was frozen, I was unable to do anything, and should have just filed BK to freeze everything until the investigation finished (turned out I paid everything off in less than 4 months). But three suppliers sold our accounts to “factoring” businesses that were hardcore collectors, and those accounts were sold to others very quickly. Even though the accounts are all paid, with fees and interest, I still get 2-3 calls a week from someone who must have paid 2 cents on the dollar for a paid debt. Every month, a new collection shows up on my account and I have to send a verification to get it to fall off (they always do). Then it shows up again 3 months later. It’s funny to watch my FICO score go from a terrible place to a reasonable place, then shoot way up, only to pop down again when another lame collector tries an illegal tactic. Luckily, I know the FCRA and other laws like the back of my hand, and next year I plan on just suing everyone who violates even a little bit. At $1000 a pop, it’s an easy few hours in civil court (already won two $500 settlements when I took a work hiatus and wanted to have some fun).
It amazes me that FICO means anything. Last year, I was added as an authorized user on a family member’s charge card so I could buy stuff for them and ship it to Europe where they live. Even though I personally have a $40k BofA card, their $60k line made my score go up because of the age. I heard they were SUPPOSED to kill the Authorized User bump, but my FICO is still up because of it. Just bizarre.
Then some DSL provider from 2002 decided to put me in collections for $4000 while never calling me. Took over 6 months to get it removed, even after I mailed all my receipts and bank statements to prove that the account was always paid in full, ahead of time. 12 months of service at $49 a month, with a verified cancellation letter showing paid in full status, and it ends up at $4000 on my CR.
If I wanted to really game the system, I could probably nuke two 30-day-lates from years ago that WERE real, but I’m a moral person. Next year, though, I’m going to have fun with the junk debt buyers, because they need to feel some real pain. And yet, I got my BofA card with a 620 FICO just months after losing one business, which taught me that FICO means nothing if you have the means to pay, and keep your debt low. Heck, I haven’t rescored my reports in months, and I’m amazed at the sheer stupidity of trying to keep up with it every day. There’s a key to not worrying about getting new debt: HAVE SAVINGS, LOTS OF IT.
Duh.
Every month, a new collection shows up on my account and I have to send a verification to get it to fall off (they always do).
What’s a verification?
I’ve getting occasional letters for the last few years on a $52 late bill from Sprint which was PAID IN FULL when I closed that account. It’s so annoying! How do I make them stop?
Go to creditboards.com or creditnet.com
You’ll learn all the ins and outs. Verification is where you invoke the FDCPA to require a junk debt buyer or collection agency to “verify” the debt or remove it. It’s not as easy as that but that’s where you start.
Thanks! I’ll check it out.
http://www.giovelawofficeexposed.com/ranieri.html
Has anyone been contacted by these criminals?
What they do is get old credit card numbers and call people up claiming they “bought the debt” and they try to get you to pay by cutting you a deal.
I suspect some people actually pay them because they threaten you with litigation if you don’t pay.
They say the burden is on you to prove you payed and closed the account.
They do things like call your nieghbor, your landlord…
Its really bizzare.
I knew it was a scam when they refused to send you any information on the account in writing.
Its just a voice on the phone from FLORIDA!
Asking you to “pay this debt”
Good lord. Please go here and contact Bud Hibbs. He’s after those losers big time.
http://www.budhibbs.com
His website doesn’t exactly say “Professional!”
Doesn’t matter. I know him personally. He’s the real deal.
If you see the movie, “Maxed Out”, Bud is in it as a consumer advocate/credit expert.
Congratulations. And thanks for the story, because it’s hard for me to get a sense of people’s FICO’s. Now I have an example to help me reference that.
1. You can go from 482 to 704 in three years. I wonder how the “teaser freezer” people would feel if they know that. Instead of hanging for five years and defaulting anyway, they can default now and come out WAY ahead than freezing the teaser.
2. Remember that loan company that only gave out mortgages to people with FICO 450, and we asked what you had to do to go that low? Now I have an idea.
oxide, the only regret i have is not filing sooner before i ran up all that debt. i tell people now is that if you are bankrupt file now dont wait. the sooner you file the faster you will recover.
I was in the same boat, almost the same time…..690 FICO, fewer credit cards, but same or more debt. Sometimes I just have to learn the hard way.
I used to visit creditboards and read stories like yours all the time. My wife has friends who are considering bankruptcy. She is worried about them. I told her not to worry. If they play it right their credit will probably be better than ours in two or three years.
after having cc debt and srewing my credit up in my early twenties (im 36 now) i swore i would never do it again and religiously pay off my debts and carry no debt at all
i feel bad when i hear stories of people going hungry in this country but i personally only donate money to animal rescue
and no kill shelters but i amy donate some food to a local food bank next week
it sucks to be hungry and if legitmately in dire straits i feel for you but if it is because you bought too much house or to much stuff i could care less
it will be a good x-mas and holiday season in my house because we live within our means and no one is knocking down my door for moeny and most importantly we are healthy
i wish the same for all the hbbers
and most importantly we are healthy
= True Wealth.
I saw a TV commercial from Best Buy, where two guys (brothers or roommates?) are in an apartment. One guy says, “I thought we weren’t doing gifts this year…” and then the other man holds up a box from Best Buy and they start fighting over it.
What struck me was the I thought we weren’t doing gifts this year line. Clearly Best Buy is well aware that people are trying to “simplify” Christmas. The message is: “Hey, we know your money is tight and you don’t want to overspend. But, look, if the gift is from BEST BUY, it’s okay to splurge.”
I’ve seen that commercial too.
Yup, that’s what Christmas is all about
Yeah, WE WEREN’T DOING GIFTS THIS YEAR, but gee, it still turned in to a $500 gifts for family Christmas. I know that’s not much money, but I was planning on buying myself some more silver.
Yup, that’s what Christmas is all about…Charlie Brown
The local news was interviewing people in the mall. I know this isn’t scientific but they were getting comments like:
“Last year I spent $1600. This year my budget is for $600.” or
“I’ve cut my Xmas spending in half.”
It’s anecdotal and some shoppers did say they were spending the same. But on that storyline, things appeared worse than I would have imagined.
Maybe they know something we don’t.
http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/rfs/514905987.html
Luxury condos at pre-construction prices! Wow, somebody stop me!
I wonder if you could walk in and put an option on the last unit?
that way you’re not getting clobbered w high condo fees for the lack of paying tenants
You probably can’t walk in at all. Those photos looks to be about 90% computer-generated.
That was my immediate impression of the exterior shot. I think the interior photos are real, but not from that building. What is that last photo showing?
“Granite Counters & Stainless Steel Appliances”
YAWN…… that is soooooooo 2005!
I’ve always loved having a condo or loft in Chicago (we live an hour north). Sold my last loft before the boom (5500 sq ft, 1 block west of the Kennedy, finished ex-ballet studio that I bought for $60,000 in 1995). Wish I didn’t sell it.
I always look at prices, because it would be a nice purchase since I go to concerts 6-7 times a month, and would be nice to have a place to crash, and maybe get a roommate to watch over things at a reasonable rate. Lately, I’m getting calls from Realtor friends who have listings in the low $100s for a 1-bedroom, in neighborhoods I actually like. That’s shocking to me. I wouldn’t get anything less than a 2/2, especially if I have a tenant who secures the place, but prices must be falling like crazy. I can’t remember the last time I saw a reasonable 1/1 in even the $100k’s.
When a 2/2 hits $140k, in an area I like, with optional parking, it’s sold. Figure I can get a boarder for $700 per month to cover taxes and assocation, give them the run of the place, and have a room to crash in when I need it. Note that we’ve always had boarders for vacation homes, and even have a semi-permanent tenant in our main home in the burbs (21 year old guy, does odd jobs for me when I need him to). Best of both worlds: make a few duckets towards taxes, and have someone to watch the kitties when we travel, while also tending to upkeep if we don’t visit for awhile.
That’s what i figured, 50% off would be a good deal.
to each his own i do not like strangers in my home
They forgot to green up the grass in their fake picture.
Winners and….
http://finance.yahoo.com/career-work/article/104056/Winners-and-Losers
Sovereign Stealth
http://www.stockmania.com/index.php?showimage=117
Hard to see how this is a good thing.
We decide to sell foreigners trillions of U.S. dollars then are surprised when they begin to spend them?
The symbiosis has gone umbilical, and the MSM has shrugged (again).
pleading allegiance to a government seems obsolete. As a citizen, I want my own line-item veto.
Read about jury nullification of the law! If enough people knew about this we could end many laws by popular demand!
So the Fed will promulgate rules for mortgage lending. Far to late of course. Isn’t consumer protection the governments job? Where were they during the bubble years?
no-it’s the consumer’s job
how many failed gov programs do you need to know that none work as planned
No, actually, under the Bush Administration, the government’s job is to undermine consumer protections in favor of big business. Look no further than the CPSC, EPA, FDA, USDA, SEC, etc, etc….
Right on CG.
http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=282958073647159
Immigration: Congressional Democrats, and some Republicans, gut the Secure Fence Act in the omnibus spending bill against the wishes of the American people. In a bill with 9,000 earmarks, border security takes a back seat.
As local congressman and presidential candidate Duncan Hunter notes, “The success of the San Diego Border Fence demonstrates the overall effectiveness of the double-layered approach and the importance of extending this infrastructure across the southern land border.”
It is that very success, we suspect, that frightens the open-border crowd and their representatives in Congress. How else to explain that, as the citizen watchdog group Grassfire (grassfire.org) notes, just five miles of fence that meets specifications has been built in the first year after the Secure Fence Act was passed.
The spending bill was written by Democrats and passed 253-154 with mostly their votes. Democrats say they weren’t deliberately dropping the two-tiered fence or the locations specified. They say they were merely adopting language that passed the Senate several times this year.
So the next time you hear candidates for any office say they support border security, give them a post-hole digger and point them toward Mexico.
For the people by the people.
mines don’t collect pensions- tx air national guard and others could strafe close in- if they make it , make them citizens on the spot !
No thank you. Please don’t let anymore lucky ones immigrate. My strategy to escape the financial collapse through a “cash option” lottery win is low probability already!
There are new ways for renters to profit in the “new” economy.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8TKMNNO2&show_article=1&catnum=0
When I was a wee lad, the thought of a Communist takeover of
the U.S. would have been cause for alarm. It is hence a bit concerning for me to see the symbiosis go umbilical.
Cashed-up China set to hunt down more US bargains
19 hours ago
SHANGHAI (AFP) — Fresh from a five-billion-dollar investment in Morgan Stanley, China’s cashed-up government is set to go shopping for more bargains as it takes advantage of the financial turmoil in the United States.
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5immDpt8mE2RUwmWnSc_pzVGrlxyw
Does this mean that the Commies won?
It means the Red Scare is over…
I believe you are correct sir.
Communism is just a name. Hong Kong took over China more than vice versa. As Jim Rogers (correctly, IMO) says, Massachusetts is more communist than China.
keep pumping the Sovereign dough into the market….
makes the sell-off sweet nectar.
Asked this yesterday - does this mean the Chinese gov’t sees more value in an American corporation than anything in their own country? $5 billion would go a long way towards building infrastructure in rural China to support economic growth - but they’d rather invest in the US? Why the lack of confidence in thier own economy?
They are just looking to diversify their USD holdings, they have WAY too much USD sitting around. Believe it or not, $5B is really not much. They are just playing with their risky 10%… and a long way to go.
If they really wanted to play hardball, they would be buying up every drop of oil they can to build up reserves, and also buy raw materials directly from the US - aluminum, copper, etc. Shares of a NYC bank are worthless compared to real commodities in the long run.
risky 10% = Chinese mad money?
I think they are tying up first dibs on the left overs when this baby goes BK.
Ex-Fannie boss fingers White House
Says administration orchestrated accounting scandal that led to his downfall; White House denies wrongdoing.
The documents Raines is seeking aren’t relevant to the shareholder lawsuit and Raines has offered no evidence they even exist, Bush administration lawyers argue. They argue in court documents that conducting a search would be an enormous burden on the White House, which is “already heavily strained by responding to numerous congressional inquiries, in addition to fulfilling their other responsibilities for running the federal government.”
The federal’s governments “Don’t question how we do business” theme is getting old.
http://money.cnn.com/2007/12/19/news/newsmakers/fannie.ap/index.htm?postversion=2007121916
I am no fan of the Bush Admin but how in the world would they be able to manipulate internal Fannie Mae accounting? Sounds like Raines is just trying cover up for his own actions by blaming Bush.
Parents gone wild - Help! Our kids are driving us broke.
http://money.cnn.com/2007/12/12/pf/kids_spending.moneymag/index.htm?postversion=2007121418
Anybody who names a boy Landon should expect major outlays. Should have named him Huck.
Heh, sounds like my parents with my sisters. But is the financial planner really that in touch?
“Once they’ve got three to six months of living expenses saved, they should direct that money first toward Roth IRAs…”
Earlier in the article they note the man has a $100,000+ salary. So if the woman makes $60,000, they probably don’t even qualify to start a Roth.
Yeah. Your kids are driving you broke. Oh, wait. Maybe it’s the fact that you can’t say “no” to your kids that is driving you broke.
Article: “twelve year old Kate wanted a $300 cell phone.”
Blano: “get a job.”
If I wanted something expensive, my folks would have asked me how I planned to pay for it.
Me too, and that is why people like us are not debt slaves. Thanks be to my parents!
More rain in the Sunshine State as S&P downgrades bond insurer ACA resulting in 17 Florida bonds being downgraded. Before the next shoe falls it might be prudent to lighten up on the munis that rely on bond insurers…
“Lack of confidence in a major bond insurer led to a ratings cut Wednesday for 17 bonds issued by Florida government agencies, which could mean higher borrowing costs for cities and other local governments already fearing budget cuts.
The cut in ratings for the Florida bonds and hundreds of others around the country followed a downgrading by the credit rating agency Standard & Poor’s of bond insurer ACA Financial Guaranty Corp. S&P slashed ACA’s rating to junk status.
With the cut in the rating for the insurer, the municipal bonds guaranteed by ACA also lose their top ratings. Lower ratings means issuers must pay higher interest on the bonds.
National analysts said the downgrade could lead to a borrowing crisis for some local governments, who could see higher costs when trying to finance projects. But officials with the Florida agencies that issued the now-downgraded bonds said for the most part they’re not concerned.
Many say they have set interest rates on their current bonds, and while it could affect the cost of future bond issues, most small local governments don’t bond out projects that frequently.
That’s the case for the Leon County Education Facilities Authority, which had bonds for a recent student housing project at Florida State University insured by ACA.”
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/071219/fl_bond_ratings_florida.html?.v=1
“Who moved my interest rate subsidy?”
And BTW, is there a public record of which banks attended the Fed’s money auction? Link, please.
Banks grumbling after Fed auction
$20 billion lent, but some say rate too high
By Jeannine Aversa
ASSOCIATED PRESS
December 20, 2007
WASHINGTON – Cash-strapped banks took the Federal Reserve up on its offer of $20 billion in short-term loans to help them overcome credit problems, but the interest rate wasn’t as low as some had hoped.
The central bank said yesterday that it had received bids for $61.6 billion worth of loans, more than three times the amount that was made available. The loans carried an interest rate of 4.65 percent, which is slightly less than the 4.75 percent the Fed charges banks on emergency loans through its “discount” window. Banks have been reluctant to use the Fed’s discount window because of the fear that investors will believe they are having trouble getting funds in a normal manner.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20071220/news_1b20fed.html
JUDGMENT CALLS
Robert J. Samuelson
A Sequel to the Subprime Mess?
The danger is another wave of large financial losses and a chain reaction of fear that paralyzes investors and banks.
Dec 24, 2007 Issue
http://www.newsweek.com/id/78252
RESIDENT EXPERT
Daniel McGinn
When Mortgages Made Sense
Should we go back to using the old-fashioned rules for lending?
Dec 18, 2007 | Updated: 11:41 a.m. ET Dec 18, 2007
http://www.newsweek.com/id/80719
I may be labeled an ideologue for saying so, but I personally don’t believe that engineering solutions (or bald-faced lies, for that matter) will suffice to restore trust to the banking system.
Others may feel free to differ with my opinion. It’s a free country, after all.
Geithner Says Fed, Central Banks Reviewing More Tools (Update1)
By Craig Torres and Anthony Massucci
Dec. 13 (Bloomberg) — Federal Reserve Bank of New York President Timothy Geithner said central bankers are looking at “additional instruments’’ to provide funds to banks in times of stress.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=anRK.SnmTcps&refer=us
Prof, It does not require more than a 5th grade education to realize that total bank reserves in the US in August were $43B. It also does not require a HS degree to calculate the losses from the MBS/CDO market are over $400B.
IMHO the losses from the DotCom bubble collapse were all on paper. In real terms, the ones that lost moneys in the dotcom/S&P collapse were the public. This insolvency crisis is hitting the firms not the public.
There are no additional instruments the Federal Reserve or any Central Bank can draw upon to generate $350B+. The only option available to banks and financial firms is sell any asset to cover their ass.
Earlier you opined on why foreign entities were getting 9% on US bank debt when you received 4% on CDs. 9% is cheap moneys for banks.
Bear Stearns lost money for the first time ever! They have been in existence since 1923.
Morgan Stanley lost moneys for the first time ever! They have been in existence since 1935.
Fortunately , we have Bank of America and Citigroup which have a history of losing moneys - so it won’t make much noise.
This time everybody loses.
Again… events that haven’t happened since the Great Depression. An important point to keep in mind…
CAPITAL
By DAVID WESSEL
Don’t Count on a Stimulus Plan
December 20, 2007; Page A2
…
Fiscal stimulus, the argument goes, is a great idea — in theory. The reality is that Congress and the president inevitably move so slowly that the stimulus arrives too late, or they use recession jitters as an excuse to pursue pet projects that don’t actually stimulate much. Yes, a sluggish economy got a well-timed boost from the Bush tax cuts in 2001, but the past quarter century suggests that relying on the Fed to fight recession usually works.
Still, when deficit-fearing Harvard University economists Martin Feldstein, who advised Ronald Reagan, and Lawrence Summers, who advised Bill Clinton, begin prescribing fiscal stimulus (and when former Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan — incorrectly, by the way — is viewed as a fellow traveler), it’s time to listen carefully.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119809264981940109.html?mod=hpp_us_inside_today
Return with us now to those thrilling days of yesteryear…. The Loan Ranger Rides Again!
The PPT rides again, too.
http://www.marketwatch.com/tools/marketsummary/
… or not?
“This isn’t flying. This is falling with style!”
http://www.marketwatch.com/tools/quotes/intchart.asp?submitted=true&intflavor=advanced&symb=TYX&origurl=%2Ftools%2Fquotes%2Fintchart.asp&time=3&freq=7&startdate=&enddate=&hiddenTrue=&comp=tnx&compidx=aaaaa%7E0&compind=aaaaa%7E0&uf=7168&ma=1&maval=50&lf=1&lf2=4&lf3=0&type=2&size=1&optstyle=1013
Ignore the bear at your peril. Bears eat bulls for lunch.
December 20, 2007 10:09 A.M.EST
BULLETIN
Wall Street bulls ignore Bear
Oracle results help set tone, turning spotlight from Bear Stearns loss
Business-software maker Oracle’s strong profit sparks optimism.
• Uptick in jobless claims | GDP unchanged | China lifts interest rates
Has the level of fraud in the mortgage finance industry become too big to prosecute?
It might not be a bad idea to root the fraud out of the system before inadvertently bailing out bad actors in a futile attempt to restore trust.
BTW, I would appreciate if anyone can add to the list of firms which might become targets of law suits going forward.
Mortgage-industry lawsuits
The finger of suspicion
Dec 19th 2007 | NEW YORK
From The Economist print edition
In America and elsewhere trial lawyers, state prosecutors and regulators look for the crime in subprime
FINANCIAL firms have already been drenched by mortgage-related losses. Now a wave of litigation threatens to assail them. According to RiskMetrics, a consulting firm, between August and October federal securities class-action lawsuits were filed in America at an annualised pace of around 270—more than double last year’s total and well above the historical average. At this rate, claims could easily exceed those of the dotcom bust and options-backdating scandal combined.
At most risk are banks that peddled mortgages or mortgage-backed securities. Investors have handed several writs to Citigroup and Merrill Lynch. Bear Stearns has received dozens over the collapse of two leveraged hedge funds. A typical complaint accuses it of failing to make adequate reserves or to explain the risks of its subprime investments, and of dubious related-party transactions with the funds. Several firms, including E*Trade, a discount broker with a banking arm sitting on a radioactive pile of mortgage debt, are being sued for allegedly failing to disclose problems as they became apparent to managers.
But one thing that sets the subprime litigation wave apart from that of the 2001-03 bear market is its breadth. After the collapses of Enron and WorldCom, lawsuits were targeted at a fairly narrow range of parties: bust internet firms, their accountants and some banks. This time, investors are aiming not only at mortgage lenders, brokers and investment banks but also insurers (American International Group), bond funds (State Street, Morgan Keegan), rating agencies (Moody’s and Standard & Poor’s) and homebuilders (Beazer Homes, Toll Brothers et al).
Borrowers, too, are suing both their lenders and the Wall Street firms that wrapped up their loans. Several groups of employees and pension-fund participants have filed so-called ERISA/401(k) suits against their own firms. Local councils in Australia are threatening to sue a subsidiary of Lehman Brothers over the sale of collateralised-debt obligations (CDOs), the Financial Times has reported. Lenders are even turning on each other; Deutsche Bank has filed large numbers of lawsuits against mortgage firms, claiming they owe money for failing to buy back loans that soured within months of being made.
“It seems that everyone is suing everyone,” says Adam Savett of RiskMetrics’ securities-litigation group. “It surely can’t be long before we get the legal equivalent of man bites dog, where a lender sues its borrowers for some breach of contract.”
The authorities, too, are baring their teeth. Several Wall Street banks have received subpoenas from New York’s attorney-general, Andrew Cuomo, requesting information on their packaging of now-stricken securities. This comes on top of a deepening probe into possibly inflated home-price appraisals by brokers and lenders, including Washington Mutual and First American Corporation. Ohio’s attorney-general, Marc Dann, has been just as hyperactive, suing over a dozen lenders and brokers.
http://economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10337884
So it all gets prolonged in a battle royale, layers of lawyerdom fighting over the carcass of the late departed…
Lenders suing borrowers is man bites dog -Say what?!
That’s foreclosure. Only gonna happen about 2 million times a year!
MBIA going down, discloses $8.1 billion in insurance on CDOs.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aiWFuQTJbvvY&refer=home
To the extent that municipal mortgage bond insurance is an important industry, I can only hope people are organizing pools of capital to replace the existing companies when they fold. Of course, what would any company use to evaluate the riskyness of the bonds? Moody’s or S&P?
More Billions In Arrears
Are we talking cities here?
cities are going to face a crunch like never before…. way too much borrowed money to spend on financing the housing boom… with the incentive of MORE property taxes from the houses! Now watch it spiral down.
A question for the Technical Analysis folks here. When looking at the 1 yr chart for the S&P (^GSPC) it looks like there are resistance levels at 1500 on the upside and 1400 on the downside. Do you see any indicators that it will retest the upside or is everything indicating downside movement at this point? I know this is TA 101, but I am trying to understand and learn.
Couple things to keep in mind in my opinion when guarding against a potential whipsaw:
1. Potential descending triangle with the top leg connected by 1576, 1554 (just misses), and 1520. Bottom leg formed by August and November closing lows around 1,404ish. Hitting the bottom of the triangle could result in a bounce back up. Its not a tight triangle but something to keep in mind/check out;
2. 100 Week EMA which seemed to provide support for both the August and November lows has moved up to about 1,410;
3. Keep an eye on the daily RSI. If extremely low (below 36) on approach or immediately before hitting the 1,400/1410 keep a look out for a potential whipsaw;
4. In my opinion news trumps technicals and so do Bernanke drops. Keep an eye and an ear out for the helicopter.
Mabye TxChick will post something up.
I’ll look at it and see what you’re looking at. Right now to me it’s KISS - 1490 to 1400 trading range.
Did you see the red histogram on the monthly MACD? First substantial red histogram (small granted) since April 2003.
4. In my opinion news trumps technicals and so do Bernanke drops. Keep an eye and an ear out for the helicopter.
Now that one I disagree with. If the chart says one thing and the fundamentals say something different, I believe the chart.
Seems pretty obvious that breaking through the bottom of that triangle brings that double bottom from March/August into play again at around 1370 + or -. My guess is the next test down there will break.
P’cola and txchick, Thank you both. Now I have something to dig in an help me.
Termites, dry rot, mold, UV’s…don’t do anything to gold.
Add Bear Steans to the Chinese shopping list…
Dec. 20 (Bloomberg) — Bear Stearns Cos., the second- biggest underwriter of U.S. mortgage bonds, reported its first loss as a public company after writedowns for subprime holdings and declines in the firm’s three largest divisions.
The fourth-quarter loss of $854 million, or $6.91 a share, in the three months ended Nov. 30 compared with net income of $563 million, or $4, a year earlier, the New York-based firm said today in a statement. The loss was almost four times wider than the average estimate of analysts surveyed by Bloomberg.
Chief Executive Officer James “Jimmy” Cayne said he and senior managers will forgo bonuses for the year after producing “unacceptable results.” Revenue dropped in the fixed-income, equities and investment banking units, and the company took a $1.9 billion writedown on subprime mortgages. Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc., Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs Group Inc. posted gains from trading stocks and advising on mergers. “
A current floor joke:
“Shanghai, Dubai, Mumbai or goodbye.”
Where every financial institution is begging for dollars.
Whoda ever thought we’d need to hit up the Chindi, for do re mi?
Ya forgot to mention Dumbbuy…
Suntrust Acts to Protect Money Market from Losses.
Dec. 20 (Bloomberg) — SunTrust Banks Inc., the seventh- largest U.S. lender, said it will buy $1.4 billion of securities from two of its money-market funds to protect investors from possible losses.
SunTrust expects to take a pretax writedown of as much as $250 million because of the purchases and more than double its reserve for credit losses to $337 million in the fourth quarter because of declining home prices, the Atlanta-based bank said in a regulatory filing today. The company said it expects to be profitable in the period and maintain its dividend.
Bank of America Corp., Legg Mason and SEI Investments Co. have stepped in to make sure their money market funds don’t fall below the $1 a share net asset value, known as “breaking the buck.” The 10 largest managers of U.S. money funds have about $50 billion in short-term debt of structured investment vehicles, some of which has defaulted.
SunTrust Banks announced the usual expenses of roughly $600 million - right! It said it would record write-down of $225 million to $250 million in the fourth quarter of 2007 as a result of this action, all held by a SIV; writedowns of $125 million and $150 million in a cash fund; and loan losses in the fourth quarter of $360 million — exceeding net chargeoffs by $190 million. The company had $147 million for loan losses in the third quarter, and $116 million in the fourth quarter of 2006. Also the Visa lawsuit. and “In May 2007, SunTrust announced that it would conduct a comprehensive evaluation of its common stock holdings in The Coca-Cola Company which currently total 43.6 million shares. The Company has completed that evaluation and the Board of Directors has authorized management to pursue certain transactions that accomplish the stated goals of improving the Tier 1 capital contribution from The Coca-Cola Company common stock holdings and increasing shareholder value.” or sell coke holdings to get cash.
SunTrust
8-K
http://tinyurl.com/ynka4j
Get the tier one up boys or face liquidation.
OT,
does anyone follow DBA, an etf that tracks agriculture?
Starting buying about a month ago. Industrial commodities might take a big speculative hit on recession talk. Afterwards, supply and demand fundamentals will lead to a recovery. Ag won’t be affected by recession talk, though certain crops seem to have unsupported prices, for now.
Tuxedo-junction,
thanks your your reply. I know zip about commodities, other than it’s really for specialists, but I was thinking that the US continues to have ad products to sell a hungry world, and was looking for a conservative entry point. I looked at COW and RJA, but the structure of both confuses me. Could you explain what you mean by unsupported prices, thanks.
The death of elitisim- The thing that really P’s me off in this whole thing is the elitist attitude of WS, the media, and the rating agencies.
I am no economist and never claimed to be one. The people on this blog blow me away with their knowledge and ability to understand the systems in place. I do not and probably never will.
However these suits who sit behind these big consoles and make all these money plays seem to me to be plain ol’ high stakes gamblers who have no skin in the game. They also make money even if you lose. WTF? That never made sense to me.
But had any one of these asshats gotten on an airplane and spent a day in the field with this old appraiser in the 2005-06 period and taken the time to observe the equity withdrawal and the likes of the $500K home purchaser he/she would have slammed on the brakes of his/her organization.
This is the rub for me. All the suits sit in their highrise office buildings and feed off the same BS instead of getting off their duff and taking a look for themselves. Business is and has been run on shoe leather not finger tapping and formulas.
Truthfully I think these aholes laugh at the situation when not in public.( I got mine) And I do understand that they did not care to know the truth but that is a whole thing too!
China to ban investing in any country that bans sovereign funds.
China fund warns against protectionism
By Martin Arnold in London
Published: December 11 2007 01:25 | Last updated: December 11 2007 01:25
The head of China’s new $200bn sovereign investment fund on Monday warned western governments against using “national security” as an excuse for protectionism, saying his fund would boycott such countries.
Speaking at a dinner hosted by the Lord Mayor of London at Mansion House, Lou Jiwei, chairman of China Investment Corporation, said: “National security should not be an excuse for protectionism.”….
http://tinyurl.com/2rapev
Financial Times
Welcome to America, a wholly owned subsidiary of China Inc.
The next world war could be started over stock selling restrictions…
Won’t be over some assassinated leader or some attempt to grab land to expand.
// Pretty sad
/// We created all this problem by saying we were “free” and believed in “freedom”. The Chinese are proving otherwise.
I’m having a hard enough time learning Spanish let alone speaking Chinese.
December 20, 2007 — In another sign that Bank of America chief Ken Lewis is intent on getting out of the investment-banking business, the Wall Street giant is in discussions to sell its prime brokerage unit to hedge fund giant Citadel, according to sources familiar with the matter.
Citadel, which recently snapped up a large stake in online retail broker E*Trade, has recently inspected the books of BofA’s prime brokerage business, according to one individual. It’s unclear if a deal can be reached and sources noted that the operation is not being widely shopped. …
NY Post
http://tinyurl.com/3d9vot
Something fun for TXChick:
“According to David Rosenberg, with 90% of companies reporting, third quarter operating EPS fell 8.5% year-on-year; while reported earnings, which include charge-offs, fell 28% year-on-year! Rosenberg also notes that “at $15.29 reported EPS for the S&P 500 in the third quarter of 2007, the P/E multiple on this basis is a lofty 23x - not the 18x ‘cheap’ multiple (or 14x on forward estimates) that is constantly being bandied about in the media.” He adds dryly: “[T]he current $15.29 estimate for reported EPS is the lowest level of earnings since the fourth quarter of 2004. And where was the S&P 500 trading at that time? Answer: It averaged about 1,162 that quarter - just in case you were thinking of buying this dip.” (I can’t wait to hear the Goldilocks’ crowd’s positive spin on these dismal earnings.)”
Luckily, the stock market always goes up, in the long run…
–
I friend just forwarded a Merrill Lynch report: “Housing deflation could be a multi-year process”
As if I, or many HBBers, needed to know that!
From the report: “Looming dominance of the “move down” buyer — But with the sales backdrop still softening, they may have to slice their construction plans by another 30% before we hit bottom on a cyclical basis. And, that bottom could be as long as a year away. Beyond that, weak demographic fundamentals point to years of sluggish real estate activity, particularly in terms of the “price”. The looming dominance of the “move down” buyer suggests that home values will continue to soften long after the building industry mops up the current excess supply. In fact, real estate pricing in general can be expected to be in the doldrums through 2012.”
As people “move down” what will happen to McMansions and Troll Brothers?
Jas
I’d buy an extremely well constructed McMansion if one were offered to me at 35-40% of the original price. I like big houses.
“extremely well constructed McMansion”
Is there such a thing?
Folks won’t have the needed space to store the “stuff” they’re supposed to be purchasing from China on credit to keep the economy going. Moving back to smaller apartments is the real issue here.
“Folks won’t have the needed space to store the “stuff” they’re supposed to be purchasing from China on credit to keep the economy going.”
Ever heard of the reverse gear? American economy and Americans’ material habits are soon going to be put in the reverse gear. Be careful of bad reverse drivers.
Jas
Craigslist will be the new Amazon.
Late Friday admissions of malfeasance, are so last week.
This is shaping up to the be the exmas that never was.
Hope is a dangerous thing I think.
Cayne ousted his co-president, Warren Spector, after Bear Stearns closed the two troubled hedge funds. Spector was considered to be an heir-apparent at the company.
However, shares rose $1.78 to $92.36 as investors hoped the worst might be over for the company.
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/071220/earns_bear_stearns.html
“In the past decade or so, maybe in the last 50 years, the idea that the United States is a unique nation seems to have taken root in the U.S. public psyche. It’s perhaps not an absolutely groundless notion. It’s a historical phenomenon that in 250 years, a nation could move from a colony into the most prosperous nation of the world and the leader of the world. It is indeed an achievement, a tribute to the talent of the American nation, the American people and an optimal political and economic system. However, as a rule, leaders do not have rights; they mostly have commitments and obligations. When they come to think that they have rights, they tend to lose their position and authority. When we used to have two world groupings, the so-called Western bloc headed by the United States and the so-called Eastern bloc headed by the Soviet Union, both sides instilled strict discipline among members of their communities. That worked at the time. Today, when the vast majority of actors in the international scene do not feel such an external threat, this manner of conduct of dictating to anyone—please don’t take offense at this—indicates a lack of understanding and utter rejection. Today other forms and instruments of international intercourse are called for, as well as other means of countering the prevailing threats. Today to be successful, one must be able to reach agreements, to compromise. The ability to compromise is not a diplomatic politeness toward a partner but rather taking into account and respecting your partner’s legitimate interests.”
http://english.pravda.ru/russia/kremlin/20-12-2007/103037-vladimir_putin_time-0
“an optimal political and economic system”
If it’s optimal, it’s irrational not to adopt it. Remember, during the Cold War, Soviet Union population was 80-90% population of U.S. Today, Russia has a population 35-40% of U.S. None of its previous satellites, with the possible exception of Belarus, are close allies. It is fighting civil wars in its southern provinces. It only finds allies by selling oil or befriending tyrants. The nation destroyed its human capital in the Communist purges. It has a low life expectancy and a lousy quality of life. Corruption is rampant and there is net emigration. Putin may have the respect of this countrymen, but Russia is a long way from deserving the respect of the Western World.
… and be prepared to ignore the noisy ones who are dying off the stage.
Ill close with the Chinese Foreign Minister talking of reductions in international capital investment being discouraged for “national security” reasons would be damaging to international relations as a SLAP IN THE FACE….
We Whipped you the jobs…
We Gave you the money…
We enjoyed the spoils…
somebody has to be a loser….CRASH THE MARKET….and they all fall down…Wall Street has caused this mess, Wall Street will pay for this mess, and Americans will be better off WITH COUPLING. Goldilocks comes home tatterd and bruised…..but she will do OK…she just needs a break and some good old fashioned home cookin.
gmme some of that old time…brother can you spare a dime….
Im ready to put people to work, again.
From friday’s WSJ
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119820566870044163-email.html
Did the “Deadbeat Specuvestor Tax Reduction Act of 2007″ that W. signed into law today make any exception for fraud? If not, then this guy just made a lot of $$$$ tax-free:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119820566870044163-email.html
PAGE ONE
Fraud Seen as a Driver
In Wave of Foreclosures
Atlanta Ring Scams
Bear Stearns, Getting
$6.8 Million in Loans
By MICHAEL CORKERY
December 21, 2007; Page A1
ATLANTA — Skyrocketing foreclosures are a testament to how easy it was to borrow from mortgage lenders in recent years.
It may also have been easy to steal from them, to judge from a multimillion-dollar fraud scheme that federal prosecutors unraveled here in Atlanta. The criminals obtained $6.8 million in mortgages from Bear Stearns Cos., including a $1.8 million mortgage to Calvin Wright, a New Yorker who told the investment bank that he and his wife earned more than $50,000 a month as the top officers of a marketing firm. Mr. Wright submitted statements showing assets of $3 million, a federal indictment alleged.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119820566870044163.html?mod=hpp_us_whats_news
Pricing Probes On Wall Street Gather Steam
By Susan Pulliam and Kara Scannell
Word Count: 937 | Companies Featured in This Article: Morgan Stanley, UBS, Merrill Lynch, Bear Stearns
Regulatory investigations into mortgage-securities pricing are examining whether financial firms should have told the public earlier about the declining value of such securities and how they priced them on their books, people close to the matter say.
The regulators, led by the Securities and Exchange Commission, also are delving into whether Wall Street firms placed higher values on their own securities than those they placed on customer holdings, the people say.
“As in most investigations, the issue comes down to what did people know and when did they know it,” said Mark Schonfeld, director of the SEC’s New York office.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119819956565943809.html?mod=hpp_us_whats_news
SEC Probes WaMu on Appraisals
By Amir Efrati
Word Count: 559 | Companies Featured in This Article: Washington Mutual, Freddie Mac, Fannie Mae, First American
The Securities and Exchange Commission is investigating how retail bank Washington Mutual Inc. handled and reported on mortgage loans that may have been based on inflated home appraisals.
The SEC’s inquiry is in its infancy and involves several possible issues, including whether WaMu accurately disclosed to investors of mortgage-backed securities how its loans were appraised as well as whether the company properly accounted for its loans in financial disclosures to investors of the company, according to the people familiar with the situation.
Washington Mutual said in a statement: “We are voluntarily and fully cooperating with the SEC’s inquiry as well …
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119819701310243567.html?mod=hpp_us_whats_news
December 20, 2007, 6:33 pm
Gross: Economy in Recession, Hedge Funds a ‘Con’
Pimco founder Bill Gross said the U.S. has begun to go into recession, sounding a downbeat note on the country’s economy, the Financial Times reported on its Web site Thursday.
“If I had to be bold I’d say we began a recession in December,” he said in a interview with the FT, in which he also repeated a call on the Federal Reserve to cut interest rates to 3%.
Gross said he thought the recession would last “four to five months,” adding it would be prolonged if the Bush administration and Congress failed to “take some rather unperceived and unforecasted measures in terms of fiscal stimulation.”
Gross was also critical of the U.S. government’s attempts to stabilize credit markets, describing “Super SIV” and plans to freeze mortgage teaser rates as a “temporary fix,” he told the FT. “What needs to be done is something fairly radical compared to Republican orthodoxy, which means spend money and absorb the deficit as opposed to pretending that you’re fiscally conservative.”
He blasted complicated financial instruments as having exacerbated the credit squeeze, saying the trend of over-leverage was a “dying concept” that will “lead to an implosion at the edges … of this new financial marketplace.”
http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2007/12/20/gross-economy-in-recession-hedge-funds-a-con/
UBS called to account over subprime fallout
By Haig Simonian in Zurich
Published: December 20 2007 22:00 | Last updated: December 21 2007 01:44
When UBS announced it would raise more than SFr19bn ($16.5bn) in new capital to address huge losses in US subprime securities, the world’s biggest wealth manager was probably prepared for a raft of class-action suits by US lawyers.
What may have come as more of a surprise was the backlash in its native Switzerland, as private shareholders, institutions and the media all found reason to take issue with the plans.
EDITOR’S CHOICE
UBS faces rebellion over fund injection - Dec-20
Lex: Banks in 2007 - Dec-20
SWF cash boosts M&A rankings of target banks - Dec-20
Comment: No more easy cash - banks must take their losses - Dec-20
MBIA bond exposure hits credit confidence - Dec-21
Central bank blessing for UBS injection - Dec-13
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2ecb8bfc-af2c-11dc-880f-0000779fd2ac,Authorised=false.html?_i_location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcms%2Fs%2F0%2F2ecb8bfc-af2c-11dc-880f-0000779fd2ac.html&_i_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fhome%2Fus
Deal volumes suffer sharp fall
By Lina Saigol in London and James Politi in New York
Published: December 20 2007 19:20 | Last updated: December 21 2007 01:23
The volume of mergers and acquisitions worldwide suffered a dramatic fall in the second half of the year as credit dried up for private equity deals and many chief executives scrapped plans for bold takeovers.
Global M&A in the year to date reached $4,740bn surpassing last year’s record of $3,910bn. But volume in the second half dropped 26 per cent and September was the lowest month since November 2005, according to Dealogic, the data provider.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2c1b7e46-af2a-11dc-880f-0000779fd2ac,Authorised=false.html?_i_location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcms%2Fs%2F0%2F2c1b7e46-af2a-11dc-880f-0000779fd2ac.html&_i_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fhome%2Fus
Years of foreboding followed by years of pain
By Saskia Scholtes in New York
Published: December 21 2007 00:24 | Last updated: December 21 2007 00:24
After years of foreboding – sadly much of it outside the real estate industry – the US housing bubble finally burst in 2007.
Amid a spike in late payments and defaults on subprime mortgages made to borrowers with patchy credit histories, the liquidity that helped fuel the US housing boom drained rapidly away, leaving behind a global financial markets crisis that looks set to linger into 2008.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/dbc729ba-af54-11dc-880f-0000779fd2ac,Authorised=false.html?_i_location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcms%2Fs%2F0%2Fdbc729ba-af54-11dc-880f-0000779fd2ac.html&_i_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fhome%2Fus
Root out bad debt or more pain will follow
By Mark Fisch and Benn Steil
Published: December 20 2007 19:11 | Last updated: December 20 2007 19:11
The devastating credit squeeze that has been gumming up the interbank and commercial paper loan markets for months shows few signs of letting up. The underlying problem remains firmly in the market for subprime mortgages.
During the savings and loan crisis of the late 1980s, dud mortgages were held by the banks that issued them. This made identification of the infected institutions simple and the solution obvious: shut them and sell their assets at a steep discount. The bill to the US taxpayer was considerable, about $125bn, but the damage to the wider economy was minimal because the crisis was well contained.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/852c1344-af14-11dc-880f-0000779fd2ac,Authorised=false.html?_i_location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcms%2Fs%2F0%2F852c1344-af14-11dc-880f-0000779fd2ac.html&_i_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fhome%2Fus