December 27, 2007

There’s Really No Smooth Transition To A Buyers’ Market

National Public Radio reports on Massachusetts. “In August, the global credit markets seized up, as investors around the world realized there were many securities floating around that no one was sure how to value. ‘This summer was shocking,’ said Paul Willen, an economist with the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston. ‘Those days in August when there was bizarre stuff happening in interest rates… I mean, you’d look at the screen and you’d think, ‘That must be a mistake.’”

“Willen conducted a study on people in Massachusetts who bought homes with subprime loans; he found that nearly 20 percent of them ended up in foreclosure.”

“‘The role that subprime lending has in this crisis and the reason why it’s very important right now is that it created a class of people that were extremely vulnerable’ to disruptions on the housing market, Willen said.”

“‘They buy the house and then something goes wrong,’ Willen said. ‘Like, it needs a new roof, new furnace — and that’s $10,000, and there’s just no way they can do it.’”

The Cape Cod Times from Massachusetts. “An exact figure of how many have left is difficult to pinpoint, but Cape travel agents say sales of one-way tickets to Brazil are way up.”

“‘We sold four times more than last year,’ said Rubia Galo, who works at a Main Street store that sells plane tickets and arranges money transfers for many of the area’s Brazilians. The store sold about 1,000 one-way tickets to Brazil in the past two months, she said.”

“Paulo Chacon runs a taxi service from Hyannis to New York airports. Chacon fills his van with about 10 people each time he makes the trip, he said. In the past six months, business is up, Chacon said. ‘They tell me that the cost of living here is more expensive every day,’ Chacon said.”

“Chacon also has heard more in the past few months from people who need work and are feeling the effects of the Cape’s real estate slowdown. ‘On a day like today, for example, I cannot tell you how many people came to the office because there are no carpentry jobs, there are no painting jobs,’ he said.”

“The real estate subprime shake-up also affected many of the Cape’s Brazilians, said Viviane DaSilva, owner of Brazil Real Estate.”

“‘Three years ago, it was just people buying,’ DaSilva said. Many Brazilian homebuyers chose adjustable-rate mortgages that began with a low interest rate, she said. Now that the interest charges have risen, they need to sell homes they can no longer afford, and many discover they may be better off going back to Brazil.”

The Standard Times from Massachusetts. “Home sales continued their slide, falling 28 percent in Bristol County and 17 percent in Plymouth County in November compared with the same month a year ago, according to data released Tuesday.”

“Statewide, sales of single-family homes were off 15 percent in November compared with a year ago, the third consecutive month of double-digit decline, according to The Warren Group.”

“The drop in home sales comes in the wake of the credit crisis that started this summer, said Katie Curnutte, a spokeswoman for The Warren Group. ‘I don’t think it is a surprise to anybody,’ Ms. Curnutte said.”

“Locally, the median price last month for a single-family home in Bristol County was $259,250, nearly 6 percent less than the same month last year. The median price for Plymouth County was $284,950, off more than 12 percent.”

“Since last year, the housing situation was suddenly transformed from a sellers’ market to a buyers’ market with little middle ground in between, said Doug Azarian, the Massachusetts Association of Realtors’s president.”

“‘There was really no smooth transition,’ he said.”

“However, the buyers’ market offers opportunities as homes become more affordable. ‘With a buyers’ market, we have more inventory at the $300,000-and-below price range, which makes it much more affordable and presents opportunities for first-time home buyers and first-time investors,’ Mr. Azarian said.”

“The more affordable homes will help create demand and keep the market going, he said. ‘We don’t want buyers to miss this buyers’ market,’ he said.”

The Boston Globe from Massachusetts. “Facing a slumping housing market, a developer has apparently backed off on plans to transform a dormant paper mill site on Main Street into a residential and retail village.”

“Apparently chilled by the sluggish real estate market, Freedom Development failed to meet several submission deadlines for moving ahead with the purchase and sale agreement, said Jerome Epstein, chairman of the company that owns the mill site.”

“While the real estate slump is reducing new revenue growth in some towns, a trend worrisome to many officials, other so-called smart-growth projects across the state are also at risk from the downturn. Such projects cluster residential and retail life into one common village area in an attempt to cut down on traffic congestion, land use, and energy costs.”

“In Pepperell, Selectman Darrell Gilmore expressed disappointment at the news regarding the old mill site. ‘I think there’s still potential, but I think the question is, how they are going to push it through in a tight economy?’ he said. ‘If you build it, who is going to move into it?’”

The Eagle Tribune from Massachusetts. “Every day, it seems, the news gets worse. Home sales are down, prices are falling and properties are staying on the market for months longer than in the past. Meanwhile, the number of foreclosures keeps going up, further depressing the market, and banks are reluctant to loan money to anyone who has less-than-perfect credit.”

“The avalanche of bad publicity is starting to take a toll, say some people in the local real estate industry. ‘Media reports have home buyers scared to take the first step,’ said Frank Novak of Novak Finer Homes in Haverhill.”

“‘This is a terrific opportunity to get into the market,’ he said. ‘People can buy an entry-level house at the same price they would have paid for it in 2004 or 2005. That’s pretty good.’”

“North Andover real estate agent Debbie Moore only half-jokingly suggests that in 2003 and 2004, ‘people were used to houses selling in 15 minutes. But it was never meant to be that way. Real estate is a long-term investment.’”

“Most communities in the Merrimack Valley and Southern New Hampshire are struggling. Karen Yasenka of Yasenka Real Estate in Hampstead, N.H., said her business is way off over last year. She said the problem is that people have lost faith in the housing market.”

“‘Usually in a poor market, you’ll see developers and investors who will come in, buy a house and flip it for a profit,’ she said. ‘But even handyman specials you can get for under $200,000 are still sitting there. Nobody has any confidence in the market, and they don’t want to play with it.’”

“She recently heard of a good deal for 10 acres of land in Salem, but when she mentioned it to a local developer, he just shrugged and said he didn’t want the hassle. ‘There’s a real malaise in the economy,’ she said. ‘Faith in the housing market has to be restored.’”

“One of the major stumbling blocks to a healthy housing market, however, is the increasing number of houses being foreclosed on. ‘The street I live on has three homes that have gone up for auction,’ she said.”

“Short sales are becoming very popular, said Lawrence broker Raul Ortega and other local agents, as more banks recognize that it’s better to take a loss on a property than to foreclose on it and board it up.”

“Many banks, however, are still holding onto foreclosed properties because they are refusing to enter into short sales. Furthermore, some companies refuse to reduce the price of bank-owned properties.”

“‘If you go to an auction, you expect to be able to start bidding low. But when the bank establishes the starting point, people around here are not used to that,’ he said. ‘Back in the 1980s, people would start at $5,000 and work their way up. Banks now are being tough on that. I see those same properties sitting there forever.’”

“A combination of foreclosures and short sales are double-teaming to erode market values throughout the region, said Ron Carpenito of The Prime Property Team in Haverhill.”

“‘If you see a lot of short sales happen, it will hurt a lot of people,’ he said, noting that in one local community there are two, nearly identical houses side by side at vastly different prices. The reason? One, which is going for $280,000, is a short sale by the bank. The other, which is a market-value house being sold by the owner, is going for $350,000.”

The Worchester Business Journal from Massachusetts. “Real estate has perhaps been one of the gloomiest sectors this year: The industry has faced declining prices, increased foreclosure rates and homes that sit with ‘For Sale’ signs staked into their front lawns for months without even a look.”

“The market will be ripe for qualified buyers, and sellers willing to improvise can continue to take advantage of crafty options. One of those includes ‘auction-by-choice,’ in which sellers willingly put their homes up for bid.”

“Already, it’s a rapidly growing alternative. Mark Shear, president of Berman Auctioneers & Appraisers in Worcester, noted that he had more calls in the last year for by-choice sales than he had in the previous 17 years combined. He estimated that foreclosure auctions and by-choice auctions will comprise about 30 percent of the industry next year.”

“‘We know there’s going to be a surge’ in 2008, he said. ‘The numbers are strong.’”

“Shear stressed, however, that the process is most successful with desirable properties that haven’t been listed anywhere else. It’s also helpful when sellers maintain a realistic expectation of the current value of their property. ‘Something is only worth what someone is willing to pay,’ he said.”

“We’re likely to see increased foreclosure rates that will continue to do ‘lots of financial damage’ in 2008, according to Jeff Hall, VP of the Worcester Regional Association of Realtors. ‘It’s going to take us another couple of years to turn it around,’ he said.”

The Times Herald Record from New York. “Homeowners increasingly failed to keep up with their home-loan payments in November, as the number of foreclosure-related filings surged 68 percent nationwide compared with the same month a year ago, according to a mortgage research company.”

“Compared with October, filings in Orange increased 78 percent, while Sullivan’s climbed 46 percent.”

The Daily News from New York. “The number of city homeowners caught up in foreclosure woes rose by one-third last month from a year ago, but actually dropped from the previous month’s total.”

“As the subprime mess continued to unfold, another 2,848 city households filed foreclosure-related papers in November, according to RealtyTrac. Queens saw 1,338 foreclosure-related documents, up 55% from November 2006.”

“‘Queens looks to be the weak link,’ said Rick Sharga of RealtyTrac.”

The New York Sun. “New York City’s status as a rosy exception to the nation’s slowing housing market may be starting to come to an end.”

“New York, one of the 10 cities in the Standard & Poor’s S&P/Case-Shiller Home Price Index, saw home prices drop 4.1% over the past 12 months. These New York numbers include a large swath of northern New Jersey, Fairfield County in Connecticut, and Putnam and Nassau counties in New York.”

“‘When you look at the amount of inventory out there, the fact that lending standards are tightening, and the flow of mortgage credit has slowed — particularly for jumbo mortgages — we still have farther to fall,’ the chief economist at Mission Residential, Richard Moody, said.”

“While the S&P/Case-Shiller index may not emphasize Manhattan proper, ‘we track a large area where the homeowners’ livelihood ties back to the New York City economy,’ the chairman of the index committee at Standard & Poor’s, David Blitzer, said. ‘The home prices in New York have been weak, and don’t show signs of a quick turnaround,’ he added.”

“New York home prices began dropping in June 2006, and have fallen roughly 5% over the past 15 months, bringing the Case-Shiller indices back to the level they were at in September 2005. In the past 5.5 years, the New York market has increased 115%.”

“‘So anyone who bought a house before September 2005 is probably still ahead of the game,’ Mr. Blitzer said.”

“As for Manhattan’s coop and condo market, ‘I don’t think Manhattan apartments are immune to the downturn,’ Mr. Blitzer said. ‘My sense is that we will see softness here over the next several months.’”

“‘For New York City, the wild card will be what happens with Wall Street,’ said the director of research at Radar Logic, Jonathan Miller. ‘The impact on real estate will be more associated with jobs and bonuses than anything else.’”

The Courier Times from Pennsylvania. “At the beginning of the year, homebuilders were predicting the housing market wouldn’t fall much further. But as 2007 wore on, builders realized the end was nowhere in sight.”

“Lower Makefield-based DeLuca Homes joined other builders in offering weeklong fire sales to reduce inventory, offering discounts of up to $150,000.”

“Complicating matters in the housing market was the rise in home foreclosures and the subsequent fallout in the mortgage industry. In Bucks County, houses sold at foreclosure were up 42 percent from last year, according to the sheriff’s office, which handles the foreclosure sales.”

“The high foreclosure rate led to a tightening of credit rules, with banks requiring higher credit rates in return for loans.”

“Not even Toll Brothers, the nation’s largest luxury homebuilder, was safe. The Horsham-based company reported an $81.8 million fourth-quarter loss earlier this month, its first quarterly loss since it became a public company 21 years ago.”

“‘By many measures, fiscal 2007 was the most challenging of the 40 years that Toll Brothers has been in business,’ CEO Robert Toll said at the time.”




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118 Comments »

Comment by wmbz
2007-12-27 07:33:49

“Now that the interest charges have risen, they need to sell homes they can no longer afford, and many discover they may be better off going back to Brazil.”

I was told that the “Brazilionaires” would save RE from Miami to Maine. What going on, this is not fair.

Comment by Brittain33
2007-12-27 08:19:24

In New England, Brazilian immigrants are working-class or middle-class people looking to make a living, not like the Latin American investors who were hyped in Miami.

Comment by Pen
2007-12-27 08:49:52

except that they send too much money to their families abck home, work under the table/off the books, create closed economies.

They are not bad people and are hard workers, but not assimilating contributes to the issues that they experience.

 
 
Comment by NeilT
2007-12-27 09:13:33

If Brazilians are givng up, that is really bad news for Massachusetts. The everyday, essential tasks they carry out keep this economy going here. They work hard, very productive and peaceful. I know a lot of their pay is under the table. But we can consider that they are ‘exporting’ labor that is essential to this region. Better than what the Chinese are exporting to us.

 
Comment by bicoastal
2007-12-27 09:21:58

Many of the Brazilian women who come to the Boston area clean houses for a living. (There is a large Portuguese-speaking community there, many originally from Cape Verde.) Amusingly, my father-in-law’s long-time cleaner (a wonderful woman; she made the house sparkle, was kind to a grouchy old man, and sang while she worked!) did indeed win the MA lottery, after which she retired and returned to Brazil (not Maine or Miami) with her millions.

‘I was told that the “Brazilionaires” would save RE from Miami to Maine. What going on, this is not fair.’

 
Comment by PA
2007-12-27 09:53:37

I’m new to this blog, but what’s with the “Got popcorn” signature?

Comment by SteveH
2007-12-27 10:08:58

Think man, think.

Comment by cayo_ron
2007-12-27 13:53:43

What ever happened to “keep your powder dry?” How come we’re not hearing that on the HBB lately?

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Comment by hd74man
2007-12-27 14:18:26

RE: “keep your powder dry?

“Keep your pecker hard and your powder dry and the worm will turn…”

-Platoon

It’s been bantered about here every once and awhile.

Just gotta stay tuned in.

 
 
 
Comment by Timmy Boy
2007-12-27 10:20:42

Ahhhh… such innocense…. nice to see some new blood on the HBB.

 
Comment by crush
2007-12-27 10:44:56

Got Neil?

 
Comment by oxide
2007-12-27 12:05:16

“Popcorn” means the news is going to get interesting, and it will be fun to watch all those FB’s (f&cKed borrowers) go bankrupt, like watching a movie. So get your popcorn with the heart-clogging processed butter product.

The popcorn concept is not unique to this blog btw. I’ve seen it on political blogs too.

Comment by cayo_ron
2007-12-27 13:55:35

One could also allude to popcorn being cheap (at least the generic ) and therefore all those FB’s are going to be eating it, as in “Got Top Ramen?”

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Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2007-12-27 20:38:28

Just picture us gathered on our lawn chairs around the bug zapper. Same principle.

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Comment by BJ
2007-12-27 12:53:53

I think it was Neil who started the idea that we stock up on popcorn to eat while we ” Watch the Real Estate show”

Sometimes it is a comedy and other times it is a horror show. But it is always entertaining

 
 
Comment by CarrieAnn
2007-12-27 10:13:12

I lived in Hyannis year round until early 2002. Many Brazilians were based there. At that time, many local people that had spent their whole lives on the Cape were fleeing due to cost of living issues. People were being asked to leave apts, the landlord would throw some money into the buildings and then ask 3x the rent. This was happening prior to 2002. One in particular was a particularly intelligent young man and his mother who had a successful catering business who after being forced out of 2 apartments w/in 2 years ended up living in a friend’s basement. It wasn’t long before they left for another state.

The only reason the Brazilians lasted this long is because they often put multiple families in a single home. At least that’s what I witnessed in my neighborhood.

 
 
Comment by Neil
2007-12-27 07:36:44

Reading all of these northeast related housing articles made me notice what isn’t being explicitly said:

1. Demand for housing is going to be down mid-term.
2. Foreign demand is withdrawing.

Everything from the Brazilian who took out a suicide loan to the German speculator is trying to get their money out. Not yet from NYC… but you can bet that soon they will have no choice. (Thanks to the cash flow hit of the Florida flip…)

Its going to be an interesting global slump. :( At least my coffee is good this morning. ;)

Got popcorn?
Neil

Comment by Brittain33
2007-12-27 08:26:15

Boston isn’t Cape Coral or Detroit… it’s more like San Diego or L.A., due for a big price drop and a construction freeze, but not total armageddon. Construction wasn’t a big part of the economy here and there’s some pent-up demand at lower prices because people have been priced out of the market by speculators and flippers.

The Brazilians aren’t international investors. They’re immigrants who tried their luck here, many of them working in whatever construction work we did have, who are weighing their options and going home. It’s going to have a small impact, but it’s not like the Japanese pulling out of Honolulu in the early 1990s.

Comment by Neil
2007-12-27 09:30:05

Boston’s main problem is that they drove out IT jobs due to over-regulation and housing costs. Armageddon? I guess that depends on which side of the coin you’re on. Sales are incredibly weak in Massachusetts right now. And comparing to San Diego? An area that will have Armageddon. ;) Seriously, San Diego is that overbuilt with that poor of mortgage quality.

Oh, the Brazilians aren’t big international investors, but as you can see in the article Ben quoted, they were buyers. Buyers who are now walking away and getting on a plane. Maybe a minor part of the market, but it helped drive the upgrade cycle. Now we’ll see the upgrade cycle go in reverse. We’ll see two years of slow sales and sharply declining prices nationwide.

Boston is down 7.19% from the peak and is declining 0.8% per month per my analysis of the Case-Shiller data. That is a drop of ~10% per year. Not Armageddon, but two years of that will certainly sting.

Got popcorn?
Neil

Comment by Timmy Boy
2007-12-27 10:24:31

Neil -

I’m a fan of yours…. but want to know a couple of things:

1) When do you think the RE market will bottom?

2) Are you prepared to buy when it does? Do you have $$$ saved?

3) What’s your line of work? (Has to be a desk job since you post during the day)

TB

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Comment by Anonymous Coward
2007-12-27 11:30:15

Neil, while we’re at it, I have a few questions for you:

1) Do you get up on the right or left side of the bed?

2) How much popcorn can you really eat in 24 hours?

3) Why do you think people ask personal questions on Internet forums?

 
Comment by Doghouse Riley
2007-12-27 12:31:25

Me too Neil:

(1) Does your chewing gum lose its flavor on the bedpost overnight?

(2) How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

(3) Would you rather kill a turtle or have one of your good friends become a Scientologist?

 
Comment by palmetto
2007-12-27 16:17:17

So, a blogger expresses some admiration for another blogger’s wisdom and we’re poking fun? What’s the point?

Also, I know both Mormons and Scientologists who are decent folks and I don’t get the jokes and flaming that goes on. It’s not OK.

 
Comment by Anonymous Coward
2007-12-27 21:45:56

I didn’t mean to flame anyone, palmetto, but I admit I did intend to poke a little fun. I just thought it was funny that someone expected Neil to talk about how much he had saved and exactly what he did for a living. Who knows. Maybe I’m just a killjoy and Neil really will answer.

 
 
 
Comment by jetson_boy
2007-12-27 09:31:03

Boston has never had what I’d call a stellar economy. I lived there for 3 years and during that time, there were efforts to make Boston a sort of tech city. Those efforts failed. The prices, especially in Boston are unsupported by the economy.

As far as Brazilians, well the other reason they might be heading home is that Brazil’s economy is one of the fastest growing in South America. In fact, there are what is known as ‘BRIC’ funds in which you can invest. This is a fund that includes stocks from the fastest growing countries: Brazil, Russia, India, and China.

So if they’re heading out of MA, it could be because the economy in New England is dead, the weather sucks, and the cost of housing is the frosting on the cake that pretty much makes a decision to move back all the more easier.

Comment by bill in Maryland
2007-12-27 14:12:37

VEIEX is one such BRIC. Sadly, it will probably not see such gains as it has had for the last 5 years (38% annual gains). It’s probably too late to get on the gravy train of VEIEX - however the fund is open to new investors.

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Comment by NYchk
2007-12-27 16:40:39

2. Foreign demand is withdrawing.

Everything from the Brazilian who took out a suicide loan to the German speculator is trying to get their money out. Not yet from NYC… but you can bet that soon they will have no choice.

The “foreign” demand is still active in NYC and vicinity… Not one, but TWO co-workers just bought apartments. Large ones. Both co-workers are here from Asia on H1b visas.

Comment by NYchk
2007-12-27 16:46:45

Comment by Jeremy
2007-12-27 18:54:14

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Comment by Jeremy
2007-12-27 18:55:32

Please no italics

 
 
 
Comment by Butch
2007-12-27 07:36:51

“‘This is a terrific opportunity to get into the market,’ he said. ‘People can buy an entry-level house at the same price they would have paid for it in 2004 or 2005. That’s pretty good.’”

Not exactly. Let’s talk 1997 prices. Otherwise I can just sit back and wait.

Comment by rally monkey
2007-12-27 07:47:56

I’m sick of hearing about a “buyer’s market”. Its not. Its a horrible time to buy. Not as bad as buying in 2005-2006, but still way overpriced. You get 5 years of 15-20% annual increases, one year of a 6 percent drop, and its supposed to be a bargain?

No thanks. Let me know when median house prices are no more than 2X average incomes.

Comment by Tim
2007-12-27 08:23:12

Please remember that realtors are highly unskilled ppl that were making in excess for 100k per year during the boom. Lying and denial is all they have to cling on to. Most of the ones I know live in 800k McMansions only a few years old. Such homes are going to be tough to carry with adjusted incomes of 50k or less.

Comment by DC_Too
2007-12-27 09:07:37

I’ve alwasys said, and it is true, that barriers to entry are higher for illegal immigrants than for real estate agents. I think even my barber is subject to more rigorous licensing requirements….

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Comment by phillygal
2007-12-27 09:31:03

I’m sick of hearing about a “buyer’s market”. Its not. Its a horrible time to buy.

Two houses that have been on the market for 6 months+ have just sold in my neighborhood. One was for sale more than a year. The asking price was reduced at least once. When I saw the SOLD signs go up, I wondered if the buyers of those properties believe that they got in at the bottom of the slump.

I can’t check the sale price til they’re recorded by the county. But it should be interesting.

Comment by NeilT
2007-12-27 12:47:37

There was a similar situation in a neighborhood where I go for a walk every evening. After about 6+ months of ‘For Sale’ the sign changed to ‘Sale Pending’ in mid Nov. Recently the sign is back to ‘For Sale’. I found it interesting.

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Comment by cayo_ron
2007-12-27 14:01:46

I think it’s a dead cat bounce.

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Comment by cayo_ron
2007-12-27 14:09:09

It seems like a lot of people, at least here in CA where we are used to ridiculous housing prices, think $8,000 off of a $400,000 house is a big deal.

 
 
Comment by Jas Jain
2007-12-27 08:44:53


Yes, it would be even better when people can buy homes at 2000-01 prices, but the buttheads can’t figure that out and tell people to wait. Sadly, they got to sell to survive in business.

Jas

 
Comment by CarrieAnn
2007-12-27 10:30:13

At the time, we could never have afforded what people paid for my Cape Cod house in 2002. The funny thing is my price was the post 9/11 real estate doldrums price. Less than 6 months later (after the helicopter drops) the family with the smaller home around the block that looked at a gas station, while mine was surrounded by woods, sold their home for $60k more.

You’re right Butch, it’ll have to be 1997 prices or earlier before people don’t feel trapped by their mortgages. Home prices aren’t the only problem. It’s income growth vs. costs of living growth. Insurance, health, energy and other costs take a much bigger bite out of incomes that’ve barely kept up w/inflation. Now housing is going to overcorrect on the other side.

 
Comment by NYchk
2007-12-27 16:44:15

Sorry for italics, trying to remove.

 
 
Comment by WT Economist
2007-12-27 07:39:20

‘Back in the 1980s, people would start at $5,000 and work their way up. Banks now are being tough on that. I see those same properties sitting there forever.’

The loss has occurred, but banks don’t want to admit it. What will make them? Regulators, or a liquidity crisis? Or will they be held until transfer to the new RTC?

Comment by Ben Jones
2007-12-27 07:45:55

It is a similar situation with the builders. Of course they are going to drag out the numbers game. It’s human nature.

 
Comment by Tim
2007-12-27 08:28:11

At some point they will not have enough capital reserves to make new loans. Thus, they will be given the orders to sell with no reserves or lock their doors. Give it another year.

 
Comment by hd74man
2007-12-27 09:08:00

RE: I see those same properties sitting there forever.’

Winter is tough on unoccupied houses here in the Northeast.

How would you like to be the drone in the REO dept. who is in charge of making sure all that $3.44 per gallon fuel oil gets into all those vacant properties to keep the pipes from freezing, or at least coordinating with property managers and security companies making sure the properties have ALL been properly winterized in all these po-dunk places they haven’t even heard of.

Security winterization guy-”You want me to go WHERE?”

One missed account or mistake in communication and it’s a potential $100k repair bill.

I had pretty good relationships with a couple of guys in the work-out department’s of major banks.

Man, were they under constant stress.

Comment by CarrieAnn
2007-12-27 10:43:14

hd74,
There is a FannieMae forclosed home in the CNY town where I’m now renting. It’s a 5200 sq footer so perhaps they feel they’re more likely to get their money out of it ($300k+) but I’ve seen people mowing the lawn and they do leave the lights on for security. I could probably go over and see if the heat is on. Or ask to see it. Too big for me though. Who’d wanna own that beast with all the prognosticating of escalating oil prices?

I do know that in the past there have been some pretty nice homes in the area, honest to goodness old fashioned (not the Mc-kind) mansions in fact that have been allowed to rot in their foreclosed state. Pipes have burst and looters have torn out the light fixtures. Course in this area just keeping the 1/4 mile long driveways accessible for the fuel delivery can be pricy in itself.

Comment by hd74man
2007-12-27 14:37:28

RE: I’ve seen people mowing the lawn and they do leave the lights on for security.

CA~

The property sounds like maybe it’s the crown jewel in somebody’s REO portfolio and whoever is running the show has his or her act together with a decent security/management crew watchin’ over things.

In the last bust I saw entire houses destroyed by mold resulting from burst water pipes and nobody knowing.

Personally-I think the ones who lent the money should be ordered to clean out all the rotted meat in the refrigerators; scrub the disgusting bathrooms; bundle up and take to Goodwill all the abandoned clothing and personal possessions; remove all the dog doo-doo and cat turds from basements; and all the other nastiness associated with gettin’ a REO on-line for re-sale.

Next time he or she might give a crap (no pun intended) about who they lend somebody else’s money to.

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Comment by tuxedo_junction
2007-12-27 09:11:38

Banking regulators don’t force depository institutions to sell REO. There are no regulations that require disposition of REO; however, the regulators can force banks to establish proper loss reserves. What’s probably going on with REO is as follows: Bank has $400,000 in an REO with a market value of $300,000. Rather than sell and realize an $100,000 loss the bank gets the property appraised at $380,000 and recognizes a $20,000 paper loss. The FDIC goes along because they don’t want the bank to become insolvent. The independent auditors also go along because they don’t want to lose the client.

As the number of REOs increases the bank’s profitability decreases. Eventually it becomes obvious to the FDIC and the independent auditors that the bank is near, or in, insolvency. At that point the FDIC gets tough. So do the auditors for fear of being sued by the FDIC or the stockholders. The bank then marks its REO to market, or near market, and seriously tries to sell them. Usually it’s too late and the FDIC takes over the bank and then liquidates the assets for whatever the market is willing to pay.

I worked for FSLIC/FHLBB for many years and the above is what went on during the S&L collapse. The FDIC will repeat the same mistakes made by the FSLIC. Dumb bankers will hold on to REO as it declines in value. Plus they will do little or nothing to maintain the property. The dumb bankers will simply try to hide the losses and hope for the best. If “the best” doesn’t happen the banks that are too big to fail will be bailed out or nationalized. The rest will be liquidated by the FDIC. A lot of the SFD REO will sell for 20-30% of the original loan balance and even then will probably be no bargain. The best deals for vulture funds will be in raw land and developed lots (provided they’re willing to hold for many years).

Comment by scdave
2007-12-27 09:49:48

The best deals for vulture funds will be in raw land and developed lots (provided they’re willing to hold for many years ??

Bingo TJ…Its already happening….

 
Comment by Tim
2007-12-27 10:02:04

Yes. I agree with the point that selling for a major loss interferes with their bogus mark-to-market they are using to claim they meet regulatory requirements just to stay in business.

 
Comment by SpacecoastFLRenter
2007-12-27 22:15:07

Excellent info. It speaks volumes regarding time lines for the progrssion of price declines and and bottom (years not months). Many a FB is locked in and it will be the bank or FDIC who will se the new market price. Another variable is the short sale. Does anybody have data on the frequency of short sales?

 
 
 
Comment by spike66
2007-12-27 07:45:14

“One, which is going for $280,000, is a short sale by the bank. The other, which is a market-value house being sold by the owner, is going for $350,000.”

Once again, the used house salesman fails capitalism 101. When the house sells, that’s the market price. So far, unsold, both are merely at asking prices.

Comment by Mike in Miami
2007-12-27 10:28:41

That is a difficult concept to understand. Market price and delusional wishing price are actually rather far apart. Especially “By-owner” sellers seem to have the most difficult time to grasp these fundamental concepts.

 
 
Comment by Affordability
2007-12-27 07:45:44

Interesting to note it is not just Mexicans as many wanted us to believe. I know earlier this year I went to try training for selling timeshares and 80% of the people there were from south America. It really surprised me.

I had just realized that most of hotels, motels, convenience stores and now fast food joints have all been taken over by people from other countries, India being the main one.

It seems while most of us were working in High Technology and corporations were shipping our jobs out while at the same time we are importing people from other countries to take over what jobs are left here.

All of these would have been part of the housing surge and now if immigration reverses, and these jobs are left for the rest of us we might be able to get above the low paying jobs of $7 - 10 an hour.

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out

Comment by Neil
2007-12-27 08:01:27

Small businesses that require a lot of hard work have traditionally been dominated by immigrants. They tend to then hire immigrant labor. At first from their own group and then from a lower cost group.

It will be interesting how it turns out. I cannot see today’s spoiled children accepting a $10/hour job to start earning their way onto the career ladder. Oh… many will have skills, but many do not.

I see a slow resurgence of manufacturing in the US. Not low wage manufacturing, but rather ‘low cost’ skilled manufacturing.

But we had a mal-investment and it always is painful sorting out from that.

Got popcorn?
Neil

Comment by aladinsane
2007-12-27 08:31:04

One thing about immigrants that are upside-down on real estate, in the estados unidos?

They can always go home again…

We don’t have that option.

 
Comment by badger boy
2007-12-27 09:09:03

Small businesses requiring work are dominated by FAMILIES.

I know in farming, the Amish and the Mennonites are cleaning up around here (upstate NY). They have access to cheap labor (typical family has 10-12 kids), are practically tax exempt (no FICA, no Medicaid tax, no workman’s comp requirements), and exempt from land use laws (can turn trailer homes into chicken coops and the gov’t can’t stop them).

Plus, they sold their farms in Eastern PA (Philly metro area) for mega-bucks, and are buying up everything around these parts.

Sigh.

Comment by phillygal
2007-12-27 09:22:49

right, they sold their land in Lancaster to developers!

Is it true the Amish don’t pay federal income tax?

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Comment by badger boy
2007-12-27 09:41:07

The Amish and Mennonites are exempt from FICA and Medicare taxes because they chose not to participate in SS or Medicare for religious reasons (insurance is against their religion - what a scam!).

They are exempt from Worker’s Compensation requirements and land use laws for similar religious reasons.

I believe they have to pay federal INCOME taxes though.

 
Comment by DC_Too
2007-12-27 11:03:38

They pay every tax everyone else pays - sales, property, income, etc., with the exception of Social Security, Medicare and unemployment.

They got the exemption from SS about 40 years ago after the IRS seized and sold some old farmer’s horse, I think.

 
 
Comment by cayo_ron
2007-12-27 14:13:01

Plus their overhead is low — no gas/oil bills, no cell phone, any other phone, electricity, etc. Boy, talk about off the grid. . .

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Comment by hd74man
2007-12-27 14:46:33

RE: I know in farming, the Amish and the Mennonites are cleaning up around here (upstate NY). They have access to cheap labor (typical family has 10-12 kids), are practically tax exempt (no FICA, no Medicaid tax, no workman’s comp requirements), and exempt from land use laws (can turn trailer homes into chicken coops and the gov’t can’t stop them).

Personally, I’d stay close and cultivate a few friendships with these people.

Who knows a bushel of potatoes might save your azz someday.

If there is ever a real social/economic collapse in this country these groups will be a couple of the last one’s standing.

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Comment by Xpovos
2007-12-27 13:36:37

I got the College Degree (in a hard science no less). -Then- I started working for $10/hr peeling labels off bottles. Then I got the job for $10/hr stuffing envelopes. Then I could start climbing the ladder.

 
 
Comment by Maria
2007-12-27 10:48:30

Affordability:
How did the Indians end up buying the hotels motels convenience stores and the fast food joints. I bet you when they immigrated they did not have lot of money to buy hotels and these joints.
I know lot of Indians who are Doctors, Engineers , Pharmacists and Therapists.

Comment by dimedropped (Orlando)
2007-12-27 11:01:45

I was privy to some information on how these immigrants get into business. Talk about sacrifice.

Lets say that 7 guys from Pakistan get together here in the US-usually by family members- they then work their individual jobs pooling costs and saving every penny. At the end of the year they put all the money in a pot and draw straws for it. The winner becomes an instant business owner who employs a couple of the guys and they bring in another investor and the process starts over.

Sadly a guy can end up working many years trying to buy his way out. All luck!

Comment by django
2007-12-27 11:24:37

Try working 90 hours a week. No vacation for 9 years . No eating out. I did that for 9 years while I reinvested in my business and now have a $3 mil house paid of, with a few mil in the bank and no bills period and a successful business. Everytime i try to hire locals (Ameericans) and show them how they can make $100 G a year selling cell phones they refuse as they have to work 10 to 7 monday through Saturday. Maybe stay a little longer if there is a customer. It always boils down to hard work and sacrifice. Delay gratification!

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Comment by aladinsane
2007-12-27 12:12:38

Something like 1/3rd of all non-chain motels in California are run by the extended Patel family, from India.

Owning motels is a 24/7 gotta be there, gig.

 
 
Comment by Maria
2007-12-27 11:28:02

interesting

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Comment by gorobei
2007-12-27 13:38:38

You see this a lot in NYC. It’s a great business model when:

1. The people are culturally homogeneous
2. They all work in the same or similar business
3. They can observe each other working their asses off
4. The business is high effort and low skill (e.g. convenience store, deli, etc.)
5. The business can be replicated locally

It’s pretty amazing to watch penniless immigrants work their way into the middle class in 5 or so years.

Note that the ‘winner’ each year is under tremendous social pressure to pay back his winnings into the pool. Think of it as a loan, not a lottery.

In NYC, you often see the same deli or restaurant changing hands every five years or so. The new winner works along side the old owner for a year, learning the finer points of ownership, and building relationships with suppliers, customers, etc. Gradually, the old owner bows out and founds a new higher-value business, or whatever, and the store seemlessly transitions to the new owners.

 
Comment by abuismail
2007-12-28 04:33:40

Actually, it is an interest free loan. The winner, just gets access to the money first. This process known as “chit” fund is quite popular in India/Pak and I even saw it among the Somalian community in Columbus.
People pay a fixed amount into a common pool each month. If there are several people needing money in a month, lots are drawn, and the winner gets all the money (as a loan). He still has to pay his share every month. Several participate just to help. They don’t take part in the lots, but get paid back at the end of the year after the business types needing capital are done. So there’s no need for banks. Of course, everyone involved knows and trusts each other.
In India they have commercial “chit” funds like this which have interest involved.

 
 
 
Comment by Mobin_kali
2007-12-27 12:32:24

When I was in the delivery buisness I was told by the current Liquor store owner that when the East Indians come to the US they are offered up very low interest rate loans for 2-5 years to start a buisness. When the loan is up, they have their uncle, cousin or other family member buy the store and get another low interest 2-5 year loan. The keep doing this forever. That’s what I was told.

 
Comment by diogenes (Tampa)
2007-12-27 12:51:57

MINORITY STATUS: preference in education.
Small Business loans for Women and Minorities, etc. etc.
The Europeans who built the country get to subsidize the “minorities”, until we become one.
Then the game stops.

 
 
 
Comment by badger boy
2007-12-27 07:50:32

Brazilians leaving backs my prediction: in 10 years, the big issue will be illegal EMIGRATION.

Part of my motivation for getting a PhD in Computer Science from a top school in the field was that I could emigrate to any other country when I decided to. Every country (including the US) has a set of visas for top people with science PhDs.

Might even convince badger girl to leave if the evangelicals or the mormons win the election. Then again, any religion founded by someone named Bring’em Young is okay by me.

Comment by lowball
2007-12-27 08:46:43

ROTFL!

 
 
Comment by qt
2007-12-27 07:57:52

“The more affordable homes will help create demand and keep the market going, he said. ‘We don’t want buyers to miss this buyers’ market,’ he said.”

Translation: I don’t want to lose my 6% commission.

 
Comment by awaiting wipeout
2007-12-27 08:02:45

”Then again, any religion founded by someone named Bring’em Young is okay by me. ”

badger boy,
Great sense of humor. LOL

 
Comment by Mike
2007-12-27 08:06:04

Why is everyone so concerned with the fall in property prices, thousands of foreclosures, the average American unable to pay for health care, a deficit as far as the eye can see and now the assassination of Bhutto in Pakistan (which has the nuclear bomb) that will rip that country apart (which also houses the top terrorists in the world) apart, the dollar going into the toilet, a nasty recession in the wind, gas at $3 and likely going to $4, food prices going through the roof, many states heading into bankruptcy and a score of other problems when Reuters is listing as the top story something which should concern each and everyone of us. That is, that Paris Hilton has been cut out of her parents will (but I suspect the Hilton money stashed in the Cayman Islands and other off shore tax havens should keep her from starving.)

Comment by Flatlander
2007-12-27 09:43:44

“Why is everyone so concerned with the fall in property prices, thousands of foreclosures”

What is the name of your blog again, Ben?

 
 
Comment by Little Al
2007-12-27 08:09:39

“Since last year, the housing situation was suddenly transformed from a sellers’ market to a buyers’ market with little middle ground in between, said Doug Azarian, the Massachusetts Association of Realtors’s president.”

Uh, this “middle ground” is extremely important. Anybody buying now is going to be screaming in short time. The big drop is now so make like Neil and enjoy the show, but watch the cholesterol.

Comment by GH
2007-12-27 08:32:18

Buy now and you will most definitely have bought just shy of the peak. We have a long way to go yet, and this kind of crash happens painfully slowly. In the short term rents are increasing as more and more of us wait it out. Really, nothing much will happen until every last flipper is flushed out of the system and that will take it’s own sweet time, but as for this being a buyers market? Nope still a sellers market, where even motivated sellers are still commanding almost top dollar.

Comment by scdave
2007-12-27 10:05:37

In the short term rents are increasing as more and more of us wait it out ??

And its going to get worse…..Proffessional management and REIT’s are moving farther and farther down the food chain in apartment aquisition….Until the purchase vs. rent gap closes significantly, you can expect rents to contiue to go up….I am seeing some markets in my area going up over 10% per year..

Comment by STS
2007-12-27 13:27:11

Real rents in Boston continue to be flat or falling as more and more people “just rent out” places that aren’t selling (just check out Craigslist). And the Massachusetts population just recently began posting very small gains after several years of losses. Consequently, rent increases in most of New England are not expected for some time.

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Comment by Mike in Miami
2007-12-27 10:40:44

We have so many empty condos in Miami they can’t afford to increase rent. It’s a renter’s market down here. The landlord still has to pay insurance and taxes. So they can choose to lower the rent or have no tenant at all. I guess we’re more over supplied with empty dwellings than most other cities. Mostly owned by flopped flippers.

 
Comment by Muggy
2007-12-27 11:00:07

“motivated sellers are still commanding almost top dollar.”

I wish I didn’t agree with this. I was eyeballing a house in the $200 range that I was thinking about low-balling. It sold within weeks for $180.

Ghetto boxes are still selling in Florida as the dregs are still piling on. I wish I was in the market for a true million dollar condo. That is where the action is right now…

Ugh.

 
 
 
Comment by Tim
2007-12-27 08:13:42

“‘If you see a lot of short sales happen, it will hurt a lot of people,’ he said, noting that in one local community there are two, nearly identical houses side by side at vastly different prices. The reason? One, which is going for $280,000, is a short sale by the bank. The other, which is a market-value house being sold by the owner, is going for $350,000.”

Not exactly. If the house for $280k has not sold, market value is closer to $250k or less. The reason for differential in listed prices is that the one for sale by the owner has no equity left and/or the owner is ignorant of current market conditions.

 
Comment by Sobay
2007-12-27 08:16:35

“Not even Toll Brothers, the nation’s largest luxury homebuilder, was safe. The Horsham-based company reported an $81.8 million fourth-quarter loss earlier this month, its first quarterly loss since it became a public company 21 years ago….

- I believe that Bob Toll has made a ‘Stand’ in Orange County Ca, They intended to ‘Sit’ on one of their developments rather than take a loss (Give the house Away), they intend to wait out the market.
That’s it Bob - you will show them!

Comment by joesixpack
2007-12-27 09:16:03

“‘By many measures, fiscal 2007 was the most challenging of the 40 years that Toll Brothers has been in business,’ CEO Robert Toll said at the time.”

I will be interested to hear if he has an update to this statement about this time next year.

 
 
Comment by CarrieAnn
2007-12-27 08:40:32

Re: Salem, NH RE auctions:
‘Back in the 1980s, people would start at $5,000 and work their way up. Banks now are being tough on that. I see those same properties sitting there forever.’”

I know the Salem, NH area pretty well and it surprises me that local banks think its an area where they can hold out for higher prices. It was a rougher part of the state of NH until becoming a bit more gentrified in the last 20 years as MA residents moved north to escape those higher housing prices.

As MA home prices move lower, former residents will have a chance to return closer to family and childhood friends, and ditch their hour plus commutes to work. Some will stay but the influx of the higher incomed neighbors from the south has got to be slowing. IMHO, the banks holding those foreclosed homes on their books are going to grow nostaligic for what they could have today.

 
Comment by Pen
2007-12-27 08:47:34

The Eagle Tribune from Massachusetts. “Every day, it seems, the news gets worse. Home sales are down, prices are falling and properties are staying on the market for months longer than in the past. Meanwhile, the number of foreclosures keeps going up, further depressing the market, and banks are reluctant to loan money to anyone who has less-than-perfect credit.”

1 - “Every day, it seems, the news gets worse.”…

…not for me in regards to the housing market. Everyday that brings more negative news, it gets better from me. Not that I wish ill to others, but I didn’t put them in their bad situation. With every price drop, we get closer to my “wishing price”.

2 - “banks are reluctant to loan money to anyone who has less-than-perfect credit”…

let’s get something striaght folks, subprime is far from “less than perfect”..it’s crap

They shouldn’t have lent to them in the first place. Whatever happened to the 4 Cs of credit.

Collateral (the house - appraisals hahahaha)
Capacity (stretched debt to income ratios)
Character (yep, the mtge charcaters sure lent to some borrower characters)
Capital (no money down ring a bell, soft second loans that are actually quite hard)

 
Comment by exeter
2007-12-27 08:50:06

re: NY

Just had a confessional with an$60k/yr ironworker. Bought a place in Orange Co. NY (Goshen?) with $3500 a month mortgage payment. He said “I’m scared but it’s a great investment”. I guess his wife works but how the hell does one sleep at nite with that knife at your throat? I gave him the spiel on the “investment”. He wasn’t happy.

Comment by WT Economist
2007-12-27 10:58:41

Orange County! What a commute!

There used to be flophouses in Downtown Brooklyn for ironworkers whose actual homes were upstate. Many of them were Mohwak indians from reservations up near Canada. After the bust, perhaps the union can invest in a few flophouses for these poor souls, so they won’t have to make that trip every day.

Comment by exeter
2007-12-27 16:16:03

WT I’m in lower westchester… Still a long assed haul. There are a couple carpenters commuting from Sullivan county to lower westchester. Unbelievable.

 
 
 
Comment by Tim
2007-12-27 09:03:04

One other thing that needs to be pointed out with short sales and reserve prices is that unlike the old days, many of these bad mortages are now held by wall street securitization trusts. While different trust structures have different terms, the trustee thereof may be scared or unable to approve a short sale or a foreclosure bid price below a certain reserve price without investor approval. Who actually owns the mortgage? Does the securitization trustee need investor consent to approve a sale for less than the base price the trust paid for the mortgage? If they were still held by the bank, the bank could make a sound economic judgement based on available information. Securitization trustees have little information and are worried about lawsuits if they sell for a discount and devalue the trust’s assets (I realize that its not actually a devaluation but more of a recognition of a loss, but this is not how the investors view it; until the losses are recognized you dont have to deal with angry investors, and sending investors a notice that assets were sold at a loss is very scary for trustees). They are deer with their eyes caught in the headlights as their lawyers scan the documents looking for answers. This wasn’t supposed to happen.

Comment by Tim
2007-12-27 09:43:52

Also note that the credit enhancer, if applicable, such as MBIA or Ambac who provided an insurance policy or letter of credit on the deal may control the investors’ decision making abilties as long as they make the investors whole under the credit enhancement, but such consent can be a struggle in and of itself, especially if 100% reimbursement is uncertain.

 
Comment by WT Economist
2007-12-27 11:00:56

Mr. Case and Mr. Shiller may have done the market a great service here. As they show losses, short sales and foreclosure avoidance deals can be defended in court.

 
 
Comment by hobo in mass
2007-12-27 09:12:23

I got this directly from the Massachusetts Realtor site.

“Real estate continues to be a very good long term investment (notwithstanding fluctuations in the market from month to month). For example, a house purchased in 2002 at the median price of $280,000 and sold last month at the median price of $330,000, would have appreciated $50,000.”
Strange how they omitted the fact that if you bought a median priced house for 375K in the summer of 2005 you’d be 45K underwater.

Comment by Tim
2007-12-27 09:50:38

It also speaks of terms of appreciation, the net (after deducting realtor fees and other closing costs the seller ends up paying) would be lower. Also it does not speak to future expectations.

 
Comment by BucksPiper
2007-12-27 10:36:54

Or the fact that you spent 3-5k a year in taxes and insurance during that time period or the 1-2% of the house purchase price in maintenance a year.

So let’s do the math:
$4,000 (T&I) * 5 years = $20,000
$2800 (Standard Upkeep at 1% of purchase price) * 5 years = $14000

This leaves you with $16000 after upkeep on this great investment…

Oh and I almost forgot: The Realtor commission when you sell your investment:
330,000 * 6% = $19800

16000 - 19800 = $-3800

Where do I sign up for such a great investment?!?!?!?!?

Comment by diogenes (Tampa)
2007-12-27 13:29:55

You forgot the tax deduction.
Remember a big selling point is you can deduct the interest on the loan. The bigger the loan, the better! After all, it’s free money.

Comment by Tim
2007-12-27 14:55:26

I read somewhere that 50% or more of taxpayers believe that for every $1 that can be declared as tax deduction they pay $1 less in taxes. LOL.

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Comment by Matt_in_TX
2007-12-27 21:00:59

For me, it is about 7 cents per dollar of interest. Yippee!

 
 
 
Comment by NYCResident
2007-12-27 14:51:52

No analysis of the worth of a primary residence can be complete if you don’t take into account the value of the occupancy or rental expense saved.

Comment by elliot jensen
2007-12-29 10:49:07

“No analysis of the worth of a primary residence can be complete if you don’t take into account the value of the occupancy or rental expense saved.”

That is an excellent comment (seriously), but for two reasons: It’s very true of the person buying a home for the sake of a roof over one’s head. That buyer wants shelter, a sense of place for family, schools, community, and an inflation hedge/latent savings account. But I also think that comment is partly laughable (but no criticism really intended) because my sense of the last couple of years in housing activity is that almost no one was actually buying for reasons much beyond pure speculation and investment. So the commenter who said that a house is a poor “investment” is perhaps more in touch with the fact that nobody has been buying lately with much thought of living in the houses (except as an afterthought to making their great investment).

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Comment by Not_In_Montana
2007-12-27 09:20:54

“While the real estate slump is reducing new revenue growth in some towns, a trend worrisome to many officials, other so-called smart-growth projects across the state are also at risk from the downturn. Such projects cluster residential and retail life into one common village area in an attempt to cut down on traffic congestion, land use, and energy costs.”

Heh, we’ve got one or two of those pending in Missoula, too. I wonder what will happen with them. Those developers have to scare up loans too, don’t they?

 
Comment by Flatlander
2007-12-27 09:24:42

“The drop in home sales comes in the wake of the credit crisis that started this summer, said Katie Curnutte, a spokeswoman for The Warren Group. ‘I don’t think it is a surprise to anybody,’ Ms. Curnutte said.”

BS, it has been a COMPLETE surprise to plenty of kood-aid swigging realtors, specuvestors and mortgage whores. Wasn’t the Re/Max 2000 group in AZ surprised when they suddenly shut down operations just a few short days ago? She is trying to sound like she’s all-knowing and all-seeing after the fact. I would bet if you asked her what comes next, she spouts off the standard NAR manufactured lines we’ve all come to know and love (and hammer mercilessly!).

 
Comment by PA
2007-12-27 10:00:34

I’m new to this blog, but what’s with the “Got popcorn” signature?

Comment by exeter
2007-12-27 10:07:52

People Are Smart

Comment by Flatlander
2007-12-27 10:17:04

LOL, and what is up with this Joshua Tree infatuation?

Comment by aladinsane
2007-12-27 10:21:36

It’s a prickly subject.

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Comment by crispy&cole
2007-12-27 10:17:16

Some time back many of us were commenting that this was going to take some time to play out, so we starting saying grab some popcorn and sit back and enjoy this movie its going to be a great show…

 
Comment by speedingpullet
2007-12-27 10:20:17

Sit back, watch the show….

…wait!

…got popcorn?

Comment by PA
2007-12-27 10:49:07

I thought this might be a shadenfreude thing (as in “let’s watch this spectacle unravel”).

Comment by krazy bill
2007-12-27 11:11:09

Shadenfreude is nothing to be ashamed of.

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Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2007-12-27 20:45:00

I’ll say….

 
 
Comment by nunya
2007-12-27 17:35:09

also roughly equivalent to:

“grab a lawnchair and a 6 pack and watch the fireworks”.

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Comment by reuven
2007-12-27 12:40:28

“‘The role that subprime lending has in this crisis and the reason why it’s very important right now is that it created a class of people that were extremely vulnerable’ to disruptions on the housing market, Willen said.”

No. It’s more like “There exists a large class of people who are incapable of managing money and are very susceptible to get-rich-quick schemes. The banks designed products to appeal to these vulnerable people.”

The vulnerable people weren’t “created” by the lenders. They were there already.

(And I’m not saying that “vulnerable” == “innocent”. The only innocent people here are Americans with zero debt and significant savings account who are being bled to death by taxes and inflation.)

Comment by reuven
2007-12-27 17:07:39

 
 
Comment by iz
2007-12-27 21:02:43

If I lived in Massachuttsetts I’d make ridiculously low offers to everyone since it sounds like the state is going to get it big time. $500.00 for your house. $2.00 for your plasma TV. You housing bubble types need to stop being nice and turn the screws on these people. If I was in some FB house I’d offer them $59.99 for the place and dump my Pepsi on the floor in front of the Realtor (might turn them on, be careful).

 
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