January 5, 2008

From Performing To In Trouble At A Very Quick Pace

TC Palm reports from Florida. “For the second year in a row, Atlas Van Lines is reporting that more residents have moved out of Florida than are deciding to settle in the Sunshine State. ‘The post-Katrina exodus from Louisiana into the surrounding states leveled off and the housing market continued to stagnate. Real estate costs undoubtedly influenced migration patterns this year as well,’ stated Greg Hoover, chief marketing officer of Atlas World Group.”

The Orlando Sentinel from Florida. “More than 2,000 homes in Lake County ended up in foreclosure last year, according to final figures compiled by Clerk of Courts Neil Kelly.”

“Banks, mortgage companies and other lenders filed 269 complaints against delinquent borrowers in December, boosting the foreclosure tally to 2,081, a county record. After a brief lull for the holidays, lenders resumed efforts to seize properties from debtors Tuesday, the first day of business in the new year.”

“They filed foreclosure actions against 26 properties, according to Kelly’s Web site. Another dozen mortgage foreclosures were filed Wednesday.”

The News Press from Florida. “A record wave of foreclosures in 2007 crested in the last three months of the year — but experts warn the worst may still be yet to come. The monthly numbers were leveling off as the year ended, but that may not last.”

“‘I think that’s just the lack of productivity because of the holidays,’ said mortgage broker Jeff Tumbarello in Fort Myers. ‘I think there’s a glut of foreclosures; the system just can’t file them.’”

“For the year, there were a record 10,700 in Lee County, according to the Southwest Florida Real Estate Investors Association. That’s compared to 3,923 in 2006, according to records.”

“December saw 1,441 foreclosures, including 433 on homes that were the primary residence for a family. For the year, there were 7,324 single-family foreclosures. That’s 4 percent of the county’s 180,305 single-family homes.”

“Most of the year’s foreclosures were filed since August, Tumbarello said. Prior to that, the monthly numbers were in the hundreds.”

“Ground zero for the foreclosure explosion was Cape Coral, where 4,858 were filed, almost half the total. Home construction has come almost to a standstill in the Cape with a record-breaking low of only nine single-family permits issued in December. A year earlier, 90 permits were issued and the record was 858 in March 2005.”

“In a way, Cape Coral was a victim of its own success as prices surged in the boom that ended in late 2005, said Bob Knight, president of the Lee Building Industry Association.”

“Ray Kest, a business professor at Hodges University in Fort Myers who follows the local economy, said banks and other lenders are unable to process the increasing numbers of people who aren’t making their payments. ‘I understand they’re backed up so far, it’s a tidal wave coming.’”

“Retail sales statistics from 2007 already show the area slipping into the equivalent of a recession, he said, and the owners of the county’s 248,128 occupied housing units are leaving as they find themselves unable to make enough money to live here.”

“Factors such as higher oil prices and a soft national economy could affect the local tourism industry, which so far has been holding up, Kest said. If that happens, ‘We’re in for a rough ride.’”

The Sun Herald from Florida. “Although economic forecasters are predicting a lackluster 2008 for automobile sales, area dealers are looking for a gradual recovery, especially toward the latter part of the year.”

“Mark Schlundt, general manager of DeSoto Auto Mall in Arcadia, said he agreed that credit had become tight during 2007. What started in real estate eventually spilled over into automobile financing.”

“‘Everyone had heard so much about the subprime (mortgage) lending market. In general, things had tightened up so much that you had to have pretty solid credit … to even think about buying a vehicle. I think that’s going to loosen up this year,’ he said.”

“Gene Gorman, president of Gene Gorman’s Auto Sales, said he agrees that truck sales are off and that the image of the truck market following home sales isn’t far off the mark.”

“But high gas prices and sluggish home sales have yet to kill the market for used sport utility vehicles, Gorman said. What may be changing is that their owners are using them more for the original reasons SUVs were designed.”

“‘People may be staying in their homes, but they still want to make sure their lifestyle goes on, so they still want an SUV to haul their boat and carry the kids around,’ Gorman said. ‘People who can afford a boat are not going to be that concerned about additional gas mileage — and they’re not going to be taking their SUVs on a long trip anyway.’”

The St Petersburg Times from Florida. “The Great American Job Machine got stuck on ‘idle’ in December, sending unemployment up to the highest level in two years and renewing investor worries that the economy will slip into a recession.”

“Job losses were largely concentrated in manufacturing, construction and financial services, a fallout from the continued housing slump. In addition, retailers hired fewer additional people than usual this past holiday season.”

“Unemployment also is rising in Florida, although December’s numbers aren’t available yet. The November rate was 4.3 percent, up from 3.3 percent in 2006.”

“‘Florida will get closer to the national average in the next couple of months,’ predicted University of Central Florida economist Sean Snaith. ‘But once we get past the first part of 2008, things will start to pick up a little bit. We should remain below the national level longer range.’”

“Snaith said the increase in unemployment might even have a bright side, giving the Federal Reserve Board a reason to cut interest rates again at the end of this month, perhaps as much as half a percentage point.”

The Sun Sentinel from Florida. “Alarmed by the declining housing market, owners of the Fashion Mall this week postponed for at least two years plans to build 600 condos on the property. In the meantime, construction will begin on an entertainment hub with shops, restaurants and offices.”

“‘The idea is to rejuvenate the project by adding more office and retail,”‘ said Erick Collazo, director of Boca Raton-based MBA Development Partners, which was hired two months ago to recast the project given falling housing prices.”

“The residential portion will be on hold until the housing market rebounds, Collazo said. ‘Market conditions show that the residential market is not going to turn around until 2009, so it won’t be until a few years after that that the residential portion will be built,’ he said.”

“‘It doesn’t seem like a developer right now would be looking to add more housing stock when the housing market is down,’ Dan Keefe, assistant to the mayor.”

From WFTV 9 in Florida. “Central Florida homeowners living in areas with high numbers of foreclosures may soon pay a hefty price for the slumping housing market. Some communities in Central Florida have increased fees 25-percent this year since owners of foreclosed properties aren’t paying up.”

“But some homeowners said it’s unfair to force them to foot the bill. ‘They are always going to go up, go up, but I think it’s unfair to have to pay for somebody else’s mistakes,’ said Mike Wuinones, a homeowner.”

The Hartselle Enquirer from Alabama. “November represents the second consecutive month the state housing inventory has decreased from the previous month, according to the Alabama Center for Real Estate at The University of Alabama.”

“‘We will continue to closely monitor this very important market indicator as the reduction in excess supply will be critical for the market to regain traction as we enter 2008,’ said Grayson Glaze, executive director of the UA center.”

“Slower home sales during the latter part of the year contributed to the increase in the number of homes on the market, as the current supply of Alabama homes, when compared with November 2006, reflects a significant increase in year-over-year supply by 6,238 units, or 17.16 percent, Glaze said.”

“According to Glaze, the inventory of homes for sale at the current sales pace is 11.3…months at the current sales pace. The 2007 year-to-date average inventory/sales ratio is 8.5, while the average Alabama inventory/sales ratio in 2006 was 6.6, closer to traditional and desired industry levels, Glaze said.”

“Total statewide home sales of 3,768 units in Alabama during November posted a decline of 11.78 percent.”

The Birmingham News from Alabama. “Regions Financial Corp., the largest bank based in Alabama, said Thursday a troubled real-estate market has led the company to quadruple provisions for bad loans in the fourth quarter, and take millions in other charges.”

“Birmingham-based Regions Financial said the provision for fourth-quarter 2007 bad loans will be increased to $360 million, from $90 million at Sept. 30. Regions said the prospect of not being repaid for loans made to residential developers prompted the increase.”

“‘The velocity and the volume that has gone from ‘performing’ to ‘in trouble’ has done so at a very quick pace,’ Regions CEO Dowd Ritter said in a conference call with investors. ‘Projects that were viable, with good sales four and five months ago, are at zero activity today.’”

“Ritter said prospective home buyers are having trouble finding loans, which has led to an oversupply of housing and an ensuing reduction in the value of residential property. Regions lent money to some of the developers of that property, and now has to face the prospect that it won’t be repaid for all of it, Ritter said.”

“In the third quarter, Birmingham’s Superior Bancorp and Montgomery’s Colonial BancGroup acknowledged problems with residential loans in Florida. The cold air wafting through the financial services industry is keenly felt in Birmingham, where 40,000 people work in some aspect of the business.”

“Also Thursday, Regions said it plans to record about $131 million of other pre-tax charges in the fourth quarter. They include…$42 million in other valuation-related expenses, most of which relate to its mortgage servicing business.”

From Reuters. “Regions said it is experiencing a sharp slowdown in real estate demand, especially in parts of Florida and Georgia, and in particular around Miami and Atlanta. It said this is hurting its $7.5 billion portfolio of loans to residential builders.”

“Regions also announced a $38 million charge related to its Morgan Keegan asset management unit, where two bond mutual funds fell more than 50 percent in 2007 because of exposure to risky debt, according to Morningstar.”

“‘Industrywide credit issues have reduced consumer demand, which in turn has led to an oversupply and decline (in) residential real estate values, all of which are increasingly stressing developers of residential properties,’ Ritter said.”

“‘This is, without a doubt, the most challenging environment that the financial services industry has encountered in many years, particularly relating to residential real estate,’ Ritter said on a conference call.”




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85 Comments »

Comment by aladinsane
2008-01-05 07:25:27

Atlas Shrugged

“For the second year in a row, Atlas Van Lines is reporting that more residents have moved out of Florida than are deciding to settle in the Sunshine State. ‘The post-Katrina exodus from Louisiana into the surrounding states leveled off and the housing market continued to stagnate. Real estate costs undoubtedly influenced migration patterns this year as well,’ stated Greg Hoover, chief marketing officer of Atlas World Group.”

 
Comment by JP
2008-01-05 07:27:59

Since this is the east coast thread of the Day:

Some HBB’ers are contemplating a gathering in DC. From yesterday’s east-coast thread, we have about 3 yes’s for Capital City Brewery on Mass Ave. This was deemed to be a good location since it is “Downtown, next to a metro (Union Station) and nice and public so people can scram if any of us turns out to be stalker-freaks.” :)

A time of this Tuesday was suggested. Any takers? If so, best starting time?

FYI polly: you started this in the thread. I don’t know if you saw the rest of the thread…

Comment by JP
2008-01-05 07:31:29

Interested list so far: zeropointzero, gt, polly, Xpovos, and me.
(And I meant to write “Sniggle” instead of polly in the FYI above.)

 
Comment by clue phone
2008-01-05 08:30:39

Tuesday, after work? I can do that.

 
Comment by Hondje
2008-01-05 08:59:43

I’m in Arlington and may try to make it in for the get-together….shoot me an email once you’ve set the time/location.

hondje.hier@gmail.com

Thanks!

Comment by JP
2008-01-05 09:04:32

Will do.

 
 
Comment by polly
2008-01-05 09:22:12

Tuesday after work sounds fine to me. Near the red line sounds fine to me too.

Now we just have to determine what “after work” means. 7:00 seems after workish to me, but I am still functioning on NYC time. DC seems to start and end work much earlier. Is 6:00 or 6:30 better?

Comment by JP
2008-01-05 09:39:15

7pm sounds right to me.
Other opinions?

Comment by nateaf
2008-01-06 06:24:11

I’ve been a lurker for 2 years and would be interested. Please let me know what the final details are.

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Comment by Xpovos
2008-01-06 09:39:09

I’m off work no later than 1630, but that’s because I’m a dirty contractor, and they don’t let us stay in the facility past then. However, I’m certain I can kill time until 1900.

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Comment by Tim
2008-01-05 07:34:55

“‘People may be staying in their homes, but they still want to make sure their lifestyle goes on, so they still want an SUV to haul their boat and carry the kids around,’ Gorman said. ‘People who can afford a boat are not going to be that concerned about additional gas mileage — and they’re not going to be taking their SUVs on a long trip anyway.’”

It amazes me how some ppl still dont understand the debt leverage game worked. Max out your credit lines buying assets you hope will appreciate. Re-fi pulling all equity out and max out again. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Afford gas? These ppl will be on food stamps in 2010 if not earlier living in their SUV unless it is repossed by then.

Comment by Fuzzy Bear
2008-01-05 08:39:10

These ppl will be on food stamps in 2010 if not earlier living in their SUV unless it is repossed by then.

And they will have no retirement and will continue to work until they drop dead.

Comment by Mormon_Tea
2008-01-05 09:46:29

In the days ahead, there may not be many openings for the job of “bull market jockey”.
Most of the Wall Streeters, Realtwhores, mortgage brokers, developers, etc, actually had jobs that fell into this larger category.
Bull market jockeys tend to get laid off, or quit for greener pastures, when the bull market ends. So the question is, where’s the greener pasture new bull market? Did I just hear - ‘gone for your lifetime’? What is it that Americans work at, where there will be so many new jobs? Agriculture?Mining? Lumber? Manufacturing? Flipping Hamburgers? Porn films? Crime? “Servicing” each other?
Are the jobs really gone for our lifetime, or gone forever? Inquiring former bull market jockeys want to know.

Comment by aladinsane
2008-01-05 10:01:53

Being former bull market jockeys, they can do some “flipping”, as long as they weigh in at around 100 pounds and aren’t terrified of being on a 1,200 pound horse, dumb as box of rocks, doing around 35 miles per hour, around an oval.

“In a 1995 study by the Chicago Rehabilitation Institute, 69 percent of riders said they skipped meals; 34 percent used diuretics; 67 percent sweated off pounds in the sauna; 30 percent “flipped,” the term for self-induced vomiting, and 14 percent took laxatives.”

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/04/25/spt_sptrac1a.html

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Comment by lowball
2008-01-05 10:07:50

ROTFL!

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Comment by myamuhnative
2008-01-05 11:14:19

speaking of having no retirement, I ran into a coworker recently that is looking for equity investors for a shady sounding investment of an apartment bldg in SanAntonio.
Note that he has not seen the building ,but is telling prospective “investors” that he has a company that will help you get your pension funds out early-penalty and tax free to invest in this cash flow positive (?) opportunity .
OMG! greater fools still exist .
Made me want to barf, but I chose not to say anything.

 
 
Comment by ghostwriter
2008-01-05 10:48:05

They probably bought their SUV’s with a heloc, so that will be the only thing they will own after they mail the keys.

 
 
Comment by WT Economist
2008-01-05 07:38:18

Any thought that a collapse in Florida might mean capitulation in the Northeast? Here is why.

Older Northeast suburbs (built 1945 to 1975) are full of people who moved in the early years but are now senior citizens or close. In many cases, the kids have moved away to other states. Some are retired, some about to retire, some may end up out of work in the recession.

In the boom those in working and middle class suburbs were able to sell to desperate, overstretched two-income professionals, but now there will be plenty of inventory for everyone. But many are refusing to “give their houses away” for a price that is realistic.

If Florida gets REALLY cheap, however, then it would become possible to once again sell here and move there taking out cash as they go. And they’ll need cash, even if they haven’t HELOCed. So they might be tempted to sell at market on that basis.

That’s an example of cheap housing elsewhere bringing down prices in NYC. Another example would be jobs moving out to places where workers can get housing cheaper.

Comment by veloblues
2008-01-05 08:13:34

“Another example would be jobs moving out to places where workers can get housing cheaper.”

There is plenty of cheap housing in Bhopal along with plenty of cheap workers.

America? Not so much.

Velo

 
Comment by Kirisdad
2008-01-05 08:18:01

Retirees from the north will only move to cheap tax states. FL has no income tax, but other southern states are are trying to attract retirees with retirement income tax incentives. FL problems are ins., low wages, a history of real estate scams, corrupt politicians and property taxes. If you polled Floridians on the importance of each you would get vastly different answers. The economic diversity, of the state, is another problem they face in solving their real estate woes. Their clownish handling of the property tax ammendments highlights the states long term problems.

Comment by WT Economist
2008-01-05 08:39:00

I didn’t say that I thought moving to Florida was a good idea. Just suggested that people might do it anyway, encouraged by desperate ads from down south. West Palm Beach condo for $100,000! (County, not city, but there is no need to say that is there?)

Comment by SFC
2008-01-05 09:33:53

Actually, West Palm Beach (city) is one of the worst parts of Palm Beach County.

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Comment by Ann
2008-01-05 13:02:28

Problem with condos in Fl is your maint can be $500-$750 per month for that $100K condo…

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Comment by Kirisdad
2008-01-05 14:40:24

Exactly, and those costs are far from fixed.

 
 
 
Comment by Fuzzy Bear
2008-01-05 09:54:11

The advantage to the retirees wanting to move to Florida in the past was low cost of living due to affordable housing, no state income tax and no state estate tax.

However, the no income tax and no estate tax is no longer a reason to live in Florida due to the other high costs of living which has offset the advantages. I do not see this as correcting for many years.

 
 
Comment by Fuzzy Bear
2008-01-05 08:49:45

Another example would be jobs moving out to places where workers can get housing cheaper.

Jobs are moving out of Florida due to the high costs of living in places like Sarasota. In Florida, there is still a wide gap between rental costs/home prices. In the Tampa Bay area, prices have dropped, but not much in terms of affordability for the regions wages. I think it will several more years of prices falling until they become more in line with the local wages. Therefore, I do not think the Northeast will be impacted for some time until Floridas prices correct. In the meantime, unemployment is ticking up in Florida, which will most certainly put a downward preasure on home prices.

Comment by Kirisdad
2008-01-05 09:22:37

Most people (trying) to leave FL are younger, lower middle class, fairly long term residents. Save our homes, kept their property taxes extremely reasonable, but the ins. and low wages made their homes unaffordable. Keeping SOH seems like a priorty however, SOH turns away new residents. IMO attracting business with decent paying jobs is the only way out for most of FL.

Comment by Fuzzy Bear
2008-01-05 10:02:52

I agree with the low wage workers moving, but the vast majority of those moving out via the moving companies are actually college educated professional workers moving because wages have not kept pace with the rapid inflation in Florida.

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Comment by Ann
2008-01-05 13:05:18

I agree that many are porfessionals who can make better salaries and have more reasonable housing cost by relocating out of the state of Fl..my husband and I did and our costs went down by 40% but our income remained the same..hence..improving the quality of our live…

 
 
 
 
Comment by Tim
2008-01-05 09:11:26

If you know anyone on Wall Street then you dont need to look for outside reasons for NYC to tank. Investment bank securitization and real estate groups are shutting down big time. The credit enhancers will also take enormous hits, as they, like most insurers, never really intended to pay out. As the Wall Street turmoil becomes more evident, that place will be toast. Most ppl I know working on Wall Street are worried about getting laid off or are calling to bitch about their bonus and how they want to get the hell out. 500k doesnt sound bad, but when you budgeted for $1million plus, its a freaking nightmare.

Comment by polly
2008-01-05 09:31:56

I can’t begin to express how happy I am to no longer be dependent on Wall Street and company for my employment. I did the securitization, RIC, REIT and other investment company deals as an associate at my first job out of law school - IPOs, foreign sovereign debt, ADRs, convertible debentures and all that stuff too. More M&A at the next one, but the layoff from the economy tanking (didn’t hit until 2003) got me after I had managed to find an in-house job that was supposed to be safer. Yeah, right.

Of my two closest friends who also got laid off, one is now at a hedge fund and one is at a small investment bank. I am worried for them.

Comment by Tim
2008-01-05 09:46:29

My practice focuses mainly on securizations and derivative products related thereto (interest rate, credit default and TRS swaps, etc). I am mostly doing work outs and unwinds now. Interesting times.

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Comment by cougar91
2008-01-05 10:50:12

Indeed. I currently work at one of those bulge bracket firms on the street in NYC (not mortgage or credit related, so no hate emails please) and next 2 quarters are gonna be very, very interesting for sure.

 
 
Comment by JC_Renter
2008-01-05 16:31:52

Seriously, the new saying for NYC firms now is “Friends don’t let friend become securitization lawyers.” You didn’t work at Cadwallader did you? That place is probably going to implode in 2008.

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Comment by takingbets
2008-01-05 10:33:13

“calling to bitch about their bonus ”

did anybody get one last year?

Comment by cougar91
2008-01-05 10:52:25

“did anybody get one last year?”

Yes, if you worked outside of mortgage/credit desks. Believe it not it was a very good year for equity, M&A and whatnots. It went up 16% where I worked, outside of the trouble areas mentioned.

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Comment by Chip
2008-01-05 14:20:19

WT - I agree with your main point, that if Florida housing becomes cheap enough, it will drive down prices in states that the oldsters are fleeing for warm weather, because those lower prices will get them “enough” money to move. I suppose Texas and the southwest states might get some of those folks, too.

Unfortunately, “cheap” inFlorida includes a new dimension — carrying costs that were minimal pre-bubble are now very heavy. I’m looking at details of a 2,000 s.f. house that just sold for $275K after being on the market for just under two years. The property tax for the seller was $4,500 per year and I think it was homesteaded (Save Our Homes). New owner will have to pay about $5,000, by my estimation, plus $2,000 or more for insurance. Before the bubble, people living on Social Security never had to deal with $600-800 a month in carrying costs on a fully paid-for home of this size, before even paying utilities.

My own best guess is that there will be a boom in retirement communities where the oldster buys a life estate in the property for $100K or so, and then pays monthly fees for upkeep, meals and activities. Until now, those have mostly been high-rise type places, but there’s no reason it can’t be small SFRs inside the ocean-area high-insurance-premium perimeter.

 
 
Comment by Muggy
2008-01-05 07:41:24

“For the second year in a row, Atlas Van Lines is reporting that more residents have moved out of Florida than are deciding to settle in the Sunshine State.”

When this is discussed on other boards and face-to-face with people I know, this little canary is usually rebutted with “that means nothing.”

So… here is a little snapshot of the psychology behind all of this: when things are in our favor we exaggerate (1,000 people a day!) and in disfavor we minimize or deny (what does a Atlas have to do with housing?).

We are pretty much running a “just make $hit up” economy.

Comment by Muggy
2008-01-05 07:45:01

Or, I should say it this way: during the run-up, many beliefs became fact. On the way down, many facts will be dismissed as beliefs.

Comment by Mugsy
2008-01-05 08:00:34

Screw facts! Beliefs are what count my brother!

Comment by ric
2008-01-05 09:00:00

there is no truth, only perception

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Comment by Kurt
2008-01-05 09:11:26

Do not try to bend the spoon. Instead, only try to realize the truth.” “What truth?” “That there is no spoon.”

 
 
 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-01-05 07:52:24

Anecdotes from business interests loosely connected with the Big Lie are often better than anything else, in an economy based upon the Big Lie.

My favorite moving anecdote was this:

A couple of years ago, we were moving and got 3 movers quotes, for the job.

The 1st guy that showed up to size up our contents, was a 64 year old mover that told me he’d been in the moving biz for 43 years.

I asked him where people were moving to?

He told me the usual suspects, Az, Or, Nv, Tn, SC

Nothing I didn’t know…

He then told me something that was 24K Gold information:

He said is his 43 years of being in the moving biz, he’d never seen so many people leaving the country. He thought 5 or 6 times as many people were leaving, vs just a few years prior.

The other 2 movers verified this for me.

Comment by cougar91
2008-01-05 10:44:20

“He said is his 43 years of being in the moving biz, he’d never seen so many people leaving the country.”

Leaving the country or leaving the state of FL? If leaving the country, guess those new state immigration laws must be working.

Comment by ghostwriter
2008-01-05 10:56:33

Bet immigrants are staying and US citizens are leaving. One big new retirement area is Mexico.

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Comment by Ann
2008-01-05 13:08:16

retirement is also Costa Rica, DR, and spain…

 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-01-05 11:08:35

I inquired as to where people were going….

Australia, New Zealand and Canada were the top 3 spots, according to 3 different movers.

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Comment by Kirisdad
2008-01-05 14:56:07

I have family and friends in NZ. Beautiful country, beautiful weather, wonderful people and terrifically exspensive. No matter how inflation has affected FL, moving to NZ would be a major financial shock to your system. New Zealanders are resourceful bunch and they are used to the costs of living there, but their wages do not compensate for $7/gal gasoline and $45,000 nissan sentras. The dollar difference, right now, makes it unaffordable for retired americans. And you’re always tied into the exchange rates.

 
Comment by 45north
2008-01-05 16:33:56

Aladinsane: My brother-in-law will close on a house in Cape Coral ($350,000) this month. He lives in Toronto (Canada).

 
Comment by New Zealand Renter
2008-01-05 17:05:38

All true, and it goes way beyond that. A Revlon lipstick is $20. Even Tylenol (here called Panadol) comes in tiny boxes and is super expensive. This is a third world country with French Riviera prices.

 
Comment by New Zealand Renter
2008-01-05 17:26:34

test

 
Comment by Paul in Jax
2008-01-05 19:21:09

NZ and Canada: the two most overrated countries in the world? I don’t hate either one, and have spent a decent amount of time in both - I’ve cycled around the South Island. I just have a knee-jerk reaction against the fawning worship by people who have never been there. Spend time (I’m not talking to NZ Renter but speaking generally) in Australia and then NZ and tell me which one you’d rather live in.

I read your post below (now speaking to NZR) and your points are too extreme, egged on no doubt by the rabid anti-Americanism in the country you live in. The longer you live in NZ, the more you will see the problems and results of rampant nanny-stateism, which is just as pernicious in destroying your freedom as the Patriot Act or whatever else it is about the U.S. that you despise. You’ll be back - this is your home, not some stick-up-the-a$$ isolated South Pacific outpost.

 
Comment by New Zealand Renter
2008-01-05 23:14:20

If by some miracle Ron Paul is elected, restoring the constitution, I will be on the next plane back to the US, headed for Florida where I was born.

Otherwise, I am resigned to the incompetence and corruption of the overrated, overpriced third world NZ nanny/welfare state.

 
 
 
Comment by Chip
2008-01-05 14:24:32

“He said is his 43 years of being in the moving biz, he’d never seen so many people leaving the country. He thought 5 or 6 times as many people were leaving, vs just a few years prior. The other 2 movers verified this for me. ”

That’s pretty interesting.

 
Comment by New Zealand Renter
2008-01-05 16:48:08

Re: Leaving the country

We left in 2005 for many reasons not related to housing costs. To our dismay we found ourselves in an economy where the housing costs relative to income became as bad as California. There are many other problems dealing with third world level infrastructure. So I often drool over the housing porn on Zillow and think of going back to America. For example a 3500 sqft villa in Cape Coral complete with private dock and screened pool for USD 200k. That house in NZ costs over USD 2 million, arrrrgh!

Then I think about things like HR1955/SB1959. The US has legally become an authoritarian state and what is best described as a kleptocracy - a state run by a crime syndicate. A new sock puppet in the whitehouse in 2009 won’t change a thing. No habeus corpus, torture, criminalizing “extremist beliefs” - which are whatever a government official says they are - these things have destroyed a formerly free society. I had several dear friends who emigrated around the same time to various places. And no, we weren’t recent immigrants going home. I am in the 12th generation of my family born in the America and a DAR. Our families founded the USA. And now the light of liberty has gone out.

Comment by Nomansland
2008-01-05 22:45:16

Has it really? Can you buy a gun in NZ? Or do you have to beg the government for your rights to defend yourself? The onr thing I can say about the United States is that an ordnary citizen is still allowed to buy a gun, not so in the commonweath territories AFAIK. It’s when they take the guns is when you know you really have no liberty left.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by combotechie
2008-01-05 08:06:43

When someone takes a public position on an issue he puts his ego on the line. If this person has a fragile ego then he must support his position at all cost, else his fragile ego will suffer damage, hence he will struggle to claim any and all dubious facts to support his position.

 
Comment by SoBay
2008-01-05 08:52:46

‘We are pretty much running a “just make $hit up” economy.’

- Muggy, stop it!
You made me spit out my Little Debbie cake that I was eating for breakfast!

Comment by Muggy
2008-01-05 09:20:09

“You made me spit out my Little Debbie cake that I was eating for breakfast!”

And by the time it hit the ground it was worth $6.83

 
 
 
Comment by Mugsy
2008-01-05 07:58:40

“‘Florida will get closer to the national average in the next couple of months,’ predicted University of Central Florida economist Sean Snaith. ‘But once we get past the first part of 2008, things will start to pick up a little bit. We should remain below the national level longer range.’”

Being an “economist” I would imagine that Mr. Snaith studied logig somewhere along the line. If that is the case, why doesn’t he ever apply any to his analysis? What exactly does “things will pick up a bit” mean in economist parlance? Is there any data to support this profound statement? Is there ever any data to support anything he says?

If I walked into Econ 101 and this guy was the professor, I’d be back at the bursar’s office ASAP to get my money and go elsewhere for my education.

Comment by Tim
2008-01-05 08:41:32

He was born a real estate genius. When you are smart like him you know it off the top of your head. Pouring over the data, complex econometrics, etc., those are all for losers that need extra time and help in figuring it all out. Some ppl have the gift. Others dont.

 
Comment by OTownCajun
2008-01-05 09:22:40

But…but…this guy must be right. His bio on UCF’s website says that he is “an award-winning forecaster, researcher, and professor.”
http://www.bus.ucf.edu/hitec/Snaith.htm

 
Comment by Fuzzy Bear
2008-01-05 10:14:21

University of Central Florida economist Sean Snaith lacks credible information and we do not follow his advice since he has a track record of being wrong.

 
Comment by ghostwriter
2008-01-05 10:59:36

Who the h*ll would believe Snaith anyway. When, in the last few years has he predicted anything correctly. If we took his advise we’d believe prices have stabilized, started rising, and the economy is taking off again.

 
Comment by diogenes (Tampa,Fl)
2008-01-05 11:33:41

Yea, but you past over the later comment which was more astounding to me:
“Snaith said the increase in unemployment might even have a bright side, giving the Federal Reserve Board a reason to cut interest rates again at the end of this month, perhaps as much as half a percentage point.”

He is an inflationist. He believes cheap money is what makes the world go round. We are now paying for Greenspan’s recklessness, and Bernanke has tried to keep the game going.
This “economist” thinks cheap money is the answer. I think cheap money is BAD, because i have some money, and I don’t want its value dissolved. Cheap money creates frenzies and manias. We need to see the interest rate INCREASED by 2%.
Snaith is a moron, paid by you and me, to make ridiculous comments for public allusion. Spare me, Snaith! Shut up!!!

Comment by Fuzzy Bear
2008-01-05 12:08:10

Here is a formula that Snaith does not talk about.

Cheap money = inflation = increase in wages=outsourcing of jobs to countries with low wages.

Keep up the poor remarks Snaith! See ya in China or India!

 
 
 
Comment by Mugsy
2008-01-05 07:59:34

logig=logic

 
Comment by SoBay
2008-01-05 08:44:19

“Alarmed by the declining housing market, owners of the Fashion Mall this week postponed for at least two years plans to build 600 condos on the property. In the meantime, construction will begin on an entertainment hub with shops, restaurants and offices.”

- JoeJuan does not need more condos, but he will never give up his entertainment or beer.
Go ahead and build the ‘entertainment center’, JoeJuan will be there.

 
Comment by Ouro Verde
2008-01-05 08:50:56

muggy=mugsy?

Comment by Muggy
2008-01-05 09:03:10

No, we are 2 different people. I think we’re both in FL. It’s not often that we post simultaneously. I’m a little less friendly than Mugsy.

I’m guessing Mugsy is either a reference to some smash-faced dog Mugsy owns, or Chicago-style mafia.

My handle is simply a nod to the weather here in FL.

Comment by Mugsy
2008-01-05 15:40:36

I am Mugsy and I recently moved back to Northern Virginia. I was born and raised in NYC but I’ve lived in many states and countries. I am respectful to all on this blog but I hold most of the folks quoted by Ben in his summaries in utter contempt.

I am a proud renter! ;)

 
 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-01-05 09:20:47

Let them eat gas

(with apologies to Marie Antoinette)

“‘People may be staying in their homes, but they still want to make sure their lifestyle goes on, so they still want an SUV to haul their boat and carry the kids around,’ Gorman said. ‘People who can afford a boat are not going to be that concerned about additional gas mileage — and they’re not going to be taking their SUVs on a long trip anyway.’”

 
Comment by Tim
2008-01-05 09:39:43

As stated in the bio - one business editor wrote, “Snaith (has) an uncanny knack of making economics not only understandable but interesting.”

True. Economics is very easy to understand and interesting when you dont use data or tested theories to prove your points, but just make chit up to tell ppl want they want to hear or what they paid you to say. Some egg head types get so bogged down on trying to understand the numbers, and getting it right, that they forget the bigger picture. “You’re rich bytch, and if you aint, you will be soon if you buy in Fl.” Now that’s both easy to understand and interesting.

 
Comment by lowball
2008-01-05 10:05:59

[* Paulites, pass this around]

Get Even with Faux News for excluding Ron Paul:

BOYCOTT their ‘sugar daddies’ ( aka vote with your wallets)

(courtesy of Dann McCreary - http://www.nolanchart.com/article872.html):

- Proctor & Gamble (Crest Whitestrips & Dawn)
- Delphi (Driving Products)
- Mercedes Benz - Comcast
- Subaru
- GMC Suvs - Best Buy
- Travelocity
- Capzasin
- Orbitz
- Ditech.com
- eloan.com
- Toyota
- Centrum (Wyeth)
- Nextel (Sprint)
- Vehix.com
- Gold Bond
- Aspercreme
- WebMD.com
- American Express
- Holiday Inn Express
- priceline.com
- L. L. Bean
- Jet Dry (Dishwasher Products)
- Chemistry (Matchmaking Website)
- Bankrate.com (mortgages)
- Cars Direct.com

 
Comment by dimedropped (Orlando)
2008-01-05 10:18:08

Snaith was a west coast expert then moved here about a year ago and is now an east coast expert. In both places he was very positive about the near term and long term issues we face. An economist is an accountant with less personality. Snaith is a friggin idiot.

UCF intelligencia is in question based upon their building a new football stadium this past year. The first home game the temp was about 95 degrees F and they found that the planners had failed to put water fountains in the stadium. About 150 heatstrokes later they gave each person who came thru the gates a bottle of water. If you want more in the next 4 hours of football it’ll be $3 a bottle.

Hey maybe Snaith didn’t have any water. That explains it.

 
Comment by takingbets
2008-01-05 10:21:27

‘People who can afford a boat are not going to be that concerned about additional gas mileage — and they’re not going to be taking their SUVs on a long trip anyway.’”

yeah, they wont worry until the credit cards start getting declined!

Comment by Blano
2008-01-05 10:38:17

Others have mentioned it here before, but yesterday I had my first encounter with someone getting their card declined in line. It wasn’t pretty. After a little swearing and pondering of options she had to bum 30 bucks cash from her mom who was in the next line over, lucky for her.

A bit surreal, having read about it here first.

 
Comment by ghostwriter
2008-01-05 11:04:11

Stood right behind someone in a checkout line right before Christmas. She had 2 credit cards declined before the 3rd one finally went through. Wonder how many people did that this holiday season?

 
 
Comment by SpacecoastFLRenter
2008-01-05 11:11:25

Waterfront house here in Melbourne sold 2004 1.3 million listed at 1.7 mill in 07 sat for 6 months just sold 1.0 mil. 300k loss plus costs….whats even better— it was owned by a realtor. Man that feels good.

Comment by diogenes (Tampa,Fl)
2008-01-05 11:42:09

He should have called Gary Watts or David Leareah, or that YU fellow for some advice. They all said the price increase is “in the bag”, you may recall. But, I do like the big loss he racked up.
Makes up for all the skimming they did over the past 5 years.

You all do me a favor. If you do go house hunting and make an offer, if it’s listed with a Realtor(tm), low-ball the hell out of it.
If it’s owned by a Realtor, offer 40% of list price. Let’s waste their time like they wasted ours.
Also, if their are a lot of plants and critters, make them offer to come and water the plants and feed the squirrels for a year after closing, holding a sizeable balance in escrow.
Revenge is a dish that is best served cold.

 
 
Comment by jane
2008-01-05 12:02:40

I work in Rosslyn and would be interested in a gathering on Tuesday. Please post where and when? Thanks!

 
Comment by dimedropped (Orlando)
2008-01-05 12:11:29

Just curious- anyone else here been flat broke before? As Ben said, “it is no fun”.

Comment by Paul in Jax
2008-01-05 12:59:01

I was flat broke many times in the 70s in four years between undergrad and business school. I would work for awhile and then take off hitchhiking cross-country (or further) - usually with a buddy, but also solo - and I often wound up running out of money - so you end up giving blood, staying in Salvation Armies, scavenging a bit, trying to find a way to get $5, etc. Once two of us got hired for a day’s work just moseying down the streets of Houston, broke on a trip back from Mexico. But I always knew if I could just make it back to Charlottesville, Va., there were friends and construction or restaurant work and hot women, so it really wasn’t bad. I can’t ever remember being really bummed out just because I was broke - it was also just a labor-leisure trade-off.

 
 
Comment by Chip
2008-01-05 14:34:15

Will post this in Local Market Observations, too. I’m in the Orlando area, just had lunch with a couple who are good buddies of ours. Her brother has a house in a neighborhood that is in Orange County and that the City of Orlando wants to annex. Virtually every homeowner apparently voted “no.” Darned good thing, because Mike Thomas’s scathing op-ed in last weekend’s Sentinel made me believe that the city is toast. The mayor apparently committed to billions in debt to build a new arts center and sports complex and the county government wisely said “no deal” to participating in the financing. Now the hundreds or thousands of condos under construction or newly built in downtown O-Town are unsold and may rot on the vine for a long time. So how’s this new debt going to be serviced? Sure glad I sold and moved.

 
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