There Was A Lot Of Hanky-Panky Going On
The Des Moines Register reports from Iowa. “Jamie Sammons was 25, married and wanted to ’stop throwing away money on rent.’ He and his wife bought a townhouse in Ankeny. They paid $139,000 for it in 2002 with the idea that five years later they could sell it, get out the money they paid in and buy a house. ‘It just seemed like a nice strategic move for building equity,’ Jamie Sammons said.”
“Now he’s not so sure. With a 2-year-old and a toddler in the family, he and his wife want to buy a larger home. Sammons said they’ve had their townhouse for sale for about one year, gradually reducing the price to the point that he now guesses he would lose $15,000, if he can find a buyer.”
“Sammons is far from alone in Ankeny, according to Heath Moulton, a local real estate broker. Moulton said he frequently meets with clients who likewise would go upside-down by that much money or more if they tried moving out of their Ankeny townhouse.”
“Moulton said he thinks the Ankeny townhouse market will continue to get worse until the construction of new townhouses is slowed significantly. ‘We’ve created such a supply,’ he said. ‘There’s really no need for new ones’ to be built at the same rate.’”
“Sammons wondered if the only solution to his family’s dilemma is to wait and hope the market improves. Their townhouse is getting cramped with the two kids, he said, but they would rather not lose money to move into a larger place.”
“‘We’re faced with two choices: either stick it out until things get a little better,’ he said, ‘or, obviously, turn it upside down and try to get out.’”
The Post Tribune from Indiana. “In less than 10 years, foreclosures on Porter County homes have almost tripled, shooting to nearly 500 in 2007. Former Courts Clerk Dale Brewer recorded 192 foreclosures through her offices in 1999, and that increased to 406 in 2003, the last year she had time to keep those records.”
“‘It looks like it started in 1999 to pick up,’ she said. ‘What I was seeing was all different kinds of people. It could be people are relying on credit too much.’”
“Allen Watkins, who has bought homes and offered foreclosure alternatives in Porter County for 11 years, blamed lenders being overly flexible in guidelines in subprime markets. ‘When those payments go up, either people can’t pay it or they get frustrated and stop paying,’ Watkins said. ‘It was a simple recipe for failure.’”
ABC 7 Chicago from Illinois. “If you wander by Jackson and Jefferson in the Loop, you’ll see probably the biggest crane you’ve ever seen in your life. Alan Lev is adding eleven stories to the century-old warehouse and turning it into a hip place to live.”
“Lev is also the incoming president of the Homebuilders’ Association of Greater Chicago, and he knows about the perils facing Kimball Hill and other developers such as Neumann Homes, which filed for bankruptcy last fall.”
“‘I think in some areas there were too many units being built, and we are now seeing that there are some developers that are not going to weather the current storm. And there’s more inventory in some places that the market can’t absorb, and it’s going to burn off,’ said Lev.”
“You can see the inventory around Chicago. The entrepreneurs behind developments like them face intensifying challenges: the summer’s credit crunch, which has lenders being very picky about who they give money to, and falling stock prices, which make investors jittery, and a sharp lack of confidence in the economy.”
“The challenge is sales, really. ‘When there is so much negative news on a daily basis, it makes it more difficult to get people to buy a unit,’ said Lev.”
The Rockford Register Star from Illinois. “From increasing job training to revising floor plans, area home builders are adjusting in a variety of ways to a marketplace that turned from scalding hot to wintry cold in a few months.”
“For the workers who build the houses the adjustments are even tougher: going from weeks where 50 hours wasn’t enough to get all of the work done, to times where they are happy if they work three days out of five.”
“‘I don’t think anybody knew how much housing was inflated by subprime buyers,’ said Darrin Golden, business manager for Electrical Workers Union Local 364 in Rockford. ‘Three years ago, the work was so brisk we couldn’t find enough people to staff it. Now our residential guys are facing 25 percent to 30 percent unemployment, and our apprentices are at 50 percent unemployment.’”
“Zentz & Associates of Rockford concentrates on the condominium market, which may be the most competitive segment as companies try to capture a share of baby boomers looking at retirement.”
“When the market was at its hottest, builders had to pay premium prices for land because ‘you can’t run the train if you don’t have land for the tracks,’ said Founder Steve Zentz. That means some builders are sitting on land that is doing nothing for them except running up costs.”
The Detroit News from Michigan. “Metro Detroit’s real estate market was socked hard last year, marked by the largest drop in home prices since the Reagan administration, the third-consecutive drop in annual home sales, the lowest number of new home permits since at least 1969, and a massive wave of foreclosures that drove thousands from their homes.”
“Out of desperation, Rob and Kelli Clifton of Ortonville tried swapping their lakefront home this summer without any luck. That was after they twice tried selling the home through a Realtor and reduced their asking price more than $30,000 since they first put it on the market in late 2006.”
“‘It’s tough,’ Kelli Clifton said. ‘We’ve tried selling it as a summer home. We’ve renovated. We’ve advertised everywhere. But right now, we’re stuck.’”
The Detroit Free Press from Michigan. “It sounds too good to be true. But in fact, buyers can find scores of historic, large homes available for astonishing bargains — some under $200,000 — in beautiful Detroit neighborhoods, deals that real estate agents say haven’t been this good in decades.”
“But what frustrates real estate agents and owners is the struggle to sell such historic gems — even at these prices. And some have slashed their asking prices by tens of thousands of dollars.”
“Buyers have long been able to get more house for their money in Detroit than most suburbs, but today’s deals in the city are at ‘a whole new level,’ said said Ron Simpson, the outgoing president of the Detroit Association of Realtors.”
“‘I’ve been doing this 30-some years,’ he said. ‘And the prices now are back to where they were 20-some years ago.’”
“It took weeks, but real estate agent Caroline Lynch got two lenders to agree to take an $89,000 offer on a Howell condominium even though the homeowner still owed $132,000 on the mortgage. All that remained was to negotiate a discount on the $9,500 in delinquent association fees and charges from an attorney representing the association.”
“But neither the association nor its attorney would budge, said Lynch. Lynch added that two prospective purchasers walked away rather than pay the fees. ‘They’re killing sales. It’s just a nightmare.’”
The Daily Press & Argus from Michigan. “Foreclosures in Livingston County have more than tripled in the past three years, hitting an all-time high of 1,029 in 2007.”
“‘I am not hearing that they will be going down anytime soon,’ said Sally Reynolds, Livingston County register of deeds. ‘Of the people I have heard talk about it from the field, they say that this first quarter is going to be higher in numbers.’”
“As of Wednesday, Reynolds recorded 56 foreclosures for the month. ‘We had 38 on Jan. 9,’ she said. ‘For January 2007, we had 38 for the whole month.’”
“‘As far as price, there doesn’t seem to be a range of prices that are being foreclosed,’ she said. ‘I see it in every township and in every area.’”
The Journal Sentinel from Wisconsin. “With tumultuous 2007 finally over, the residential real estate industry in Milwaukee is hoping to exhale. December was so slow that ‘you wondered if your phone was working,’ said Beth Jaworski, a broker and chair of the Greater Milwaukee Association of Realtors.”
“Many sellers who tried in 2007 to hold out for their target prices finally gave in, evoking offers from buyers worried about overpaying, said Jaworski.”
“‘Reality has to set in,’ said Kathleen Winkelmann, an agent in Milwaukee. She and other agents said they’re working harder to craft incentives to grab attention for their listings. And asking prices are now on Post-It notes, not labels, subject to fluctuating local market conditions.”
“Still, foreclosure fallout opened 2008 with another act in what is turning out to be a long-running drama, with lender losses mounting beyond even the most pessimistic predictions of 2007.”
“After a record year for foreclosures, a stunning 1,000 Milwaukee County properties already have been scheduled for sheriff’s sales in the first nine weeks of 2008, with a record 200 put up for sale in just one day earlier this month, records show.”
“Local officials now say they are worried that the high tide of foreclosure sales - more than 2,800 properties were scheduled for sheriff’s sales in 2007, a 60% increase over the previous year - could easily become a tsunami in 2008.”
“‘When I started in 1998, there were fewer than 800 for the entire year, maybe 20 or 30 a week,’ said Eileen Carlson, a civilian employee of the Sheriff’s Office who helps supervise the weekly sale of foreclosed property. ‘We’ve already issued 1,000 docket numbers for 2008. We’re already booking sales into March.’”
“‘The money was easy, and people thought the value of the properties they bought would just continue to appreciate,’ said Milwaukee City Assessor Mary Reavey. ‘Some people just overbought and then they couldn’t make the higher payments.’”
“Some people also got taken by scams in which unscrupulous brokers teamed up with appraisers to sell properties at prices far greater than the city’s assessed or fair market value, she said. ‘There was a lot of hanky-panky going on, and there were a lot of unsophisticated buyers who were taken advantage of,’ Reavey said.”
The Star Tribune from Minnesota. “Home sale prices dipped in 2007 for the first time in at least 20 years and are expected to remain flat or fall slightly in the coming year, officials from several Twin Cities-area real estate groups said.”
“‘It’s significant in that prices declined,’ said Mark Allen, CEO of the Minneapolis Area Association of Realtors. ‘But insignificant when you look at long-term price growth.’”
“But the first price decline in two decades of record-keeping debunks the long-held notion that home prices in this market don’t fall. Whether this decline signals a long-term trend or is just a blip is anyone’s guess, but the slowdown has already left plenty of victims. The number of foreclosures in Minnesota doubled in 2007.”
“Some home builders have resorted to mass auctions to unload new but empty homes.”
“Condo sales in downtown Minneapolis and St. Paul haven’t kept pace with development plans, forcing developers to scrap several high-profile projects. The story was similar in the suburbs, where new projects came to a virtual halt while builders and developers focused on reducing inventories of unsold homes.”
“Todd Bjerstedt, VP of a data research company in Hudson, Wis., said there still is a glut of unsold new houses on the market, but that inventory levels have come down slightly.”
“As of December there were 3,548 houses that were finished but not sold, he said, down from a peak of 4,552 in April. And the number of ready-to-be-built lots peaked at 42,524 in August, but dropped slightly to 42,287 in December.”
“‘Until this inventory is drawn down, we can’t really expect normal construction activity,’ he said.”
“Tom Musil, director for the Shenehon Center for Real Estate at the University of St. Thomas, said that given the rapid price increases of recent years, a decline was inevitable.”
“Tony Pistilli, chief retail appraiser at U.S. Bank in Minneapolis, said that even though optimists already are talking about a recovery, 2007 marked just the beginning of the market correction.”
“That, combined with the fact that the market oversold itself in 2005 and 2006, doesn’t bode well for price increases in 2008.”
“‘I don’t think people are comfortable buying into a declining market,’ Pistilli said. ‘Time will tell. There’s still a huge inventory of properties that has to get sold before people get more comfortable.’”
back to 2002 ? and IN is one of the more successful midWest states
yikes…………
‘There’s really no need for new ones’
Sure there is….. if you beleive realtors/builders..
(1) regarding shortages are driving prices higher.
(2) huge demand from overseas buyers due to tanking dollar
(3) influx of baby boomers about to retire…
(4) they dont make land anymore
(5) best school districts attract the more people
(6) did i miss one or two ???
If you build it, they will come!
BAHAHAHAHAHAAH!!!
‘Still, foreclosure fallout opened 2008 with another act in what is turning out to be a long-running drama, with lender losses mounting beyond even the most pessimistic predictions of 2007.’
IMO, this is why the government is freaking out lately. I had many posts with quotes about lenders postponing foreclosures until after the holidays. I am sure there are organizations tracking the defaults behind the scenes. Most of what we read are from little outfits like realtytrac, but these sheriff sale reports are the better picture.
I noted the defaults are beyond 80’s bust numbers now in supposedly non-bubble Texas this weekend. We have been at record default numbers for some time, but the media has just ignored it. When I was on NPR last summer, and I mentioned the record levels, the host reacted as if he had never heard about it.
Anyway, for the MSM, why are we overbuilt in every metro area that comes to mind? Why record defaults in almost every state? Why do people still get away with the ‘RE is local line?’
“Lender losses mounting beyond even the most pessimistic predictions of 2007.”
These fine instutions are keeping them on the books for 80% of the mortgage or higher to avoid even worse looking numbers. At some point they are going to have to move them. It will be very, very ugly. Best to sweep it under the rug for now and pray.
Ben,
Just to back this up…Charlotte County ,Fl,in Dec,had FC’s equal to sales(400ea). There was one tiny article in the local paper. The actual number of sales wasn’t really bad(snowbirds) but what happens when they are done till next year??
Oh wait,thats why as of today sales stand at a whopping 21 and FC’s are at 36. I also have heard rumors that there is a huge backlog at the courthouse…
A guy I work with has a wife who has been in real estate for 35+ years in North Port,Fl. She was the best realtor last year in the office. How good ?? 3 sales. Yup 3. Over half the office had none. It is about to get very,very,very interesting this year…
Chris
True. They are very scared. If they agree to sell some at 60% or less of mortgage value, the high mark-to-market on their other holdings would look suspicous. Also this would call prices to fall faster as it would be used to set median values and agents would use it as the new negotiation point. It will happen eventually though. Voluntarily or eventually nonvoluntarily.
Same story in north idaho. A lady I work with, her husband is a realtor ™and jumped to the commercial side (he’s ok so far…) but she mentioned that January is the “re-up” for agents, they must pay their dues (about $1000/yr). That, and the desk rent of approx. $500 a month, and you can guess, she said her hubby thinks 1/2 the office will be empty this year. Ouch indeed….
Desk rent at $500 a month?
Ouch.
By this time next year, some of the former realtor-babes will be working UNDER somebody’s desk.
They rent their desks? I thought is was always better to buy.
HA!
Never thought of it like that. Thanks for the coffee in my nose.
Aparently they’ve been ‘priced out forever.’
Got popcorn?
Neil
He and his wife bought a townhouse in Ankeny. They paid $139,000 for it in 2002 with the idea that five years later they could sell it, get out the money they paid in and buy a house. . . . Sammons said they’ve had their townhouse for sale for about one year, gradually reducing the price to the point that he now guesses he would lose $15,000, if he can find a buyer.”
It is unclear weather we are seeing pre 2002 pricing or he HELOCed himself to death. Anyone know the area? I hate feeling you are being misled.
25 years old, 2 small kids and stuck with a tiny townhouse. I’d have to do unspeakable things to keep from hanging myself in the basement.
And a 2 year old. Yikes.
How come the reporters never ask these people directly if they now question the ‘throwing money away on rent’ logic? That would be helpful to the general debate, IMO. They just leave it hanging out there.
that is too young to be tethered like that. Hell, I think 35 is too young to be tethered like that
Any age is either too old or too young to be stuck in a tiny townhouse with plural kids. If they hadn’t heard of the housing bubble, you’da thought they’da heard of birth control…
“you’da thought they’da heard of birth control… ”
Lots of ‘practicing” catholics in Iowa. I’m not that far from Ankeny, and to be that age with a townhouse and kids, they probably did not HELOC. Most likely, they took a pay option ARM, and their loan balance grew to $150K plus. Though I guess I’d have to see if they were driving newer cars, etc, to be sure. . .
Hey TX, I was in Dallas this weekend and saw the newspaper with default % of households by zip. Catch that? I forgot to bring it home.
I have to disagree about two kids in a townhouse. That attitude is part of the cause of the bubble - that LOTs of space is needed. How many people live in apartments with kids in Chicago, SFO, NY ? If you need to get out and play you go to the park. It’s easy. A townhouse is just like a house but attached to two other houses on either side. BFD. My former neighbors bought their 3/1.5 small 1950s rambler new and raised 5 healthy and productive kids in it. And the mom ran a beauty shop from the basement. I live in a nice but small studio apartment. - Not for everyone, but is n’t a common theme of this blog not to fall prey to marketing and advertising ? And the got to have stuff / and more of it mentaility ? Rant off.
Anon, I agree with you. I’m writing this from my two-level 3/1.5 townhouse in the DC area. Only one kid, though! It’s not a big deal unless you have lots of stuff you need room for, which we don’t. And the 30-year-fixed at 5% is a sweet 15% of our gross income. I’d rather be able to sleep at night in a small house than worry myself to death in a McMansion.
I had the same thought! He has a place he can (presumably) afford, a wife, and two kids. So it’s a little crowded. I don’t see what his “misery” is all about.
The right to a McMansion isn’t guaranteed in our consititution!
My same thoughts exactly….
that is a nightmare
me 36 years old with wife and dog
that is about as tied down as i will ever get
My wife and I had to deal with 2 toddler cats, and that was hard enough.
We have one cat with an incredibly squeaky, high meow, and she is very vocal. That’s enough for me.
Oh the catmanity!
I’d have to do unspeakable things to keep from hanging myself in the basement.
Let me be your accomplice, then….
I’m tired of your teasing. Put out. LOL
I love it when the girls get aggressive.
LOL - you and me both!
I think there’s a good chance they aren’t HELOCed to death, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they put little to no money down. I don’t know the area very well (I live about twenty miles north), but I do drive past it sometimes and I can say that it has way, way too many condos and townhouses. Ankeny isn’t too far north of Des Moines so I think developers were trying to build it up as a suburb, but there really isn’t a whole lot there industry-wise. I think places like Ankeny and other recently established suburbs are going to be really hard hit - why would someone want to buy a townhouse in Ankeny if the prices become comparable in Des Moines? It would seem that the prices in the suburbs would have to drop.
(Oh, it’s Iowa not Indiana).
Ankeny is a relatively nice, middle class, maybe upper middle class suburb of Des Moines. It’s close enough that people working in downtown could easily live in Ankeny. I think there might be a couple of problems with this guy including: Low down payment, toxic mortgage, very little appreciation, the fact that it’s a townhome (in a state with plenty of land), and Heloc’s.
I lived in the Quad Cities of IA for about 4 years in the 90’s, I’m not sure this applies to Ankeny, but appreciation was pathetic, maybe 6-7% total for 4 years.
“but appreciation was pathetic, maybe 6-7% total for 4 years”
Seems like that’s all it SHOULD be.
Factoring real inflation, appreciation was flat at best.
Well Jamie you just THREW AWAY at least $15,000 down the rat hole on a mortgage….pretty kewl huh?
$3000 a year loss = $250 a month you could have had to spend on a much bigger rental.
======================
“Jamie Sammons was 25, married and wanted to ’stop throwing away money on rent.’
$250 a month = $20,417.42 invested monthly with a 12% return. So, really lost $35,417,42 because he didn’t want to “throw money away on rent”. HEY! Maybe they can rent the place out! Uh, you can get $1500 a month for a TH in Ankeny, right??? (pssst, the answer starts with an “n” and ends with a “o”)
“get out the money they paid in and buy a house. . . .”
Monthly interest payments aren’t “paying in”.
DING DING DING. That’s half of why I really hesitated on buying in 2004-2005 even though everyone around me seemed to buying.
First red flag: Gee, $275K seems like an awful lot to pay for an apartment…
Second red flag: “Interest only?” What’s that? It doesn’t sound much different from renting…
Then i found HBB and felt so vindicated.
“It is unclear weather we are seeing pre 2002 pricing or he HELOCed himself to death. Anyone know the area? I hate feeling you are being misled.”
Most of the articles you read in the paper tend to be misleading. Why don’t they say he expects to get $120,000 tops and the brokerage fees and closing costs will eat up the rest.
He probably financed 100% or INTEREST ONLY or even better NEG-AM. The paper should tell us his mortgage balance, which i guess they can’t. Otherwise, we’re all just guessing what the sales price would be to lose $15,000. Maybe he owes $160k against a smaller initial loan??
Same thought as everyone else. Prices around the country now seem to be somewhere between 2003/2004 prices. Shoulda got while the getting was good in 2005!
I’m waiting for 99-00 prices.
I’m in one of those moods this morning…hehe.
http://www.assess.co.polk.ia.us/cgi-bin/invenquery/homequery.cgi
Sale price: $135,380
List price: $112,900
http://tinyurl.com/ytntbm
No helocs, so that’s a plus. Stay put!
Shaking head,
Leigh
I have visited Rockford and have a friend who lived there for several years. At least in the mid-1990s, the city was a combination of Andy Griffith and Beirut. Condominiums? Boomer retirement? It’s hard to get more delusional than that.
I never really understood suburban condos or townhouses in smaller communities. Could land really be that expensive?
I’m glad you brought that up. IMO, it is a direct result of the housing bubble.
Every boom sees this to some degree, but this really got out of hand. As the cycle moves toward the peak, developers do more multifamily because land has been driven up. Townhouses, condos and lastly conversions.
And in every cycle, these are the first to fall. I found many quotes in the spring of 2005 stating this flat out. But yeah, the bubble gave us silly multi-family projects in places where they never belonged.
Yes, it’s one thing to throw up high-density housing in an urban environment, but it’s strange to see condo developments in municipalities with little traffic and low population densities.
It’s not like most people in these suburban developments can make use of public transit or walkable commercial spaces — the majority get in their cars for everything, just like their neighbors.
in places where they never belonged ??
And the delusion that is created along with it….
The real “Small Town America” isn’t exactly like what a lot of people think it is, or at least it’s not in the Midwest. Most of these old towns and cities had extremely dense downtowns. Folks didn’t spread out so much because 1) it was pre-automobile and 2) the land was in productive use for agriculture. A townhouse isn’t out of place in many of these small towns, even ones that gave in to sprawl, unless the townhouse is built out in the edges of the sprawl. Down the street from the new Super Walmart or something.
You’re right about the way a lot of the towns were built, but those “dense downtowns” have been on the downward slide for three decades.
In some more prosperous or well-managed towns and cities, a concerted effort was made to draw residents and commerce back to the city square — and in some cases it’s been highly effective.
But I’ve been to plenty of Midwestern small towns (mostly in southern IL, southern WI, southern IN, and northern KY) where that density is gone and has been for some time. The emphasis in many of those towns is on arterial sprawl — along the biggest roads or near interstate exits. Once a certain point is passed it becomes difficult for some town centers to sustain any re-birth, even as locals lament the loss of the town center (while driving to Super Walmart).
If you’re ever in the mood for a nice long drive someday, may I recommend a trip to Hancock County IL. It’s an out of the way corner of our state along the Mississippi north of Quincy.
What we saw there defied explanation. Towns collasping on themselves. One particular town (we thought it was a town anyway because it had a small grid of streets with street signs) had not houses lining its blocks - but junked automobiles and trucks. A town had become a junkyard.
Real estate only goes up!
I stopped in a little flyspeck town in Kansas last year looking for a gas station - mercifully can’t remember the name of the place - and it was like something out of CHILDREN OF THE CORN. Empty and eerie. I actually called my wife and said, “If I disappear, it’ll happen right here.”
Towns that sprung up in farm country are supported by the folks who live on the nearby farms. When each farmer tended 40 acres then there were a lot of farmers about to allow the town to proper.
But nowdays one farmer may tend to a thousand acres. This means less farmers around to support the town, which leads to less prosperity for the town.
Its always about Jobs OR disposable income (Retiree’s)…AND picking up on what you said Sammy, I remember visiting a friend in a small town in Michigan…When we walked into the local lodge and he intorduced me from California the place went silent…I was not quite sure I was going to make it out…
Sammy, it was probably Severy.
And maybe it was just urban legend, but isn’t this the town that had a movie filmed there where, after the filming was done, they left the fake storefronts up because it actually improved the town?
I dunno - but the place gave me the heebies.
Yes, here in Texas there are many wonderful small towns with great loft conversion opportunities on the squares. Although Galveston isn’t small, it’s historic district, the “Strand” offered fabulous if smallish loft rentals overlooking a very lively area, hosting Mardi Gras and “Dickens on the Strand” for the Christmas season.
Smaller “untapped” towns, often ignored for their supposed lack of sophistication, have empty second story square space
which could accomodate people who wanted a loft space within walking distance of bookshops, restaurants and retail outlets. Georgetown, north of Austin comes to mind as does New Braunfels and San Marcos. These places have healthy community centered economies… two are college towns (ideal for the liberally minded ex-urban hipster), and
one is a seasonal favorite for its festivals and famous water park (and for being the home base of Blue Bell Ice Cream, yum). Oh yes, low crime too. I stayed at a B&B on Georgetown’s square that was fabulous. True townhome living… in town. Just have to make sure that the local economy is healthy.
Tim, you wouldn’t believe the rural stuff we’d see being built when we were mapping IL, WI, IN in 1999-2001.
We’d drive past farm fields only to discover a new row of townhouses placed so close together that the view from their balconies was another unit and a asphalt driveway.
We saw SFH with lots so small that the living room view was the trunk of their neighbor’s car. There were townhomes placed so close to the street that the front yard was a strip of grass no wider than three feet. Some developments had streets so narrow we could not do three point turn without pulling right up to someone’s garage door.
There were hundreds upon hundreds of these small SFH and townhouses and this was seven years ago! These developments were so dismal and depressing (especially during winter) - even when they were brand new.
Oh, if I weren’t such a Luddite and cheapskate and had brought a camera on our travels. Really HBBers - you would have gagged at the sight of these developments - and they were everywhere - Crown Point IN, Round Lake IL, Aurora IL, Gurnee IL, Madison WI. Heavens only knows what they put up since 2001 - but it makes me shutter.
You’d do more than shudder my friend.
Makes me want to…er…can’t put that in writing…LOL.
Leigh
No pictures needed edgewater.
I’ve seen this on I-80 heading to Sacramento. What used to be rolling hills of grass is now rolling hills of houses so close together you can look into a person’s bathroom.
The New Urbanists love it - tight cluster housing with farmlands left as Open Space. Sorta like French villages, only with lousy food.
When the New Urbanist model is implemented correctly, it works pretty well (though not always affordably). What Edgewaterjohn is relating above is not New Urbanism, it’s High Density Sprawlism … the worst of sprawl meets the worst of urban life at the edge of a soybean field.
Blah.
Sounds like Manteca…..:)
True. I love the concept of live, work and play areas surrounded by parks. To make it work you have to have an environment that is attractive and inviting for ppl to walk around outside. Walk to work, go to the park, go to a restaurant, get some errands done, etc. A cluster of cheap townhouses with siding or synthetic stucco thrown in between field right of the highway just doesnt cut it. I either want to live in a vibrant urban environment or a secluded peaceful setting, not experience the worst of both.
Isn’t it simply the fact that attached housing costs less than stand-alone housing? Maybe not everyone can afford a free-standing house.
Depends on land value. If land is relatively cheap the economies of scale are not that huge, at least not worth any minimal price differential. One odd thing I have seen recently is that price per square foot for condos in urban areas are meeting or exceeding price per square foot in nearby residential areas. Go figure. In my estimation the ease of “investing” in future condo projects (i.e., no carrying costs until completion and little maintenance, especially for rich out of towners) caused some units to be sold at the peak at higher prices per square foot than nearby single family housing. Purely bubbilicous.
Madison condos (mostly downtown) are priced much more than SFH’s in the same area per square foot. I just saw an add for a
Isn’t it simply the fact that attached housing costs less than stand-alone housing?
The answer is yes “Unless” you go over three stories over parking…The engineering just kills you after that and the price per square foot would exceed the cost of detached…
Here where I live in OH the condos are the same price as the houses per sq ft.
But the cost per square foot to build it is greater….The trade off is you drive down the cost of the land on a per unit basis with Density….
Part of it could be older people and singles (mostly women) who don’t want to mess with outside things - lawn / yard care. painting / gutter / roof / ….
And the divorce rate….One roof becomes two….
I never really understood suburban condos or townhouses in smaller communities. Could land really be that expensive?
We started about 15 years ago with the condos. All I can figure is people don’t want the maintenance. However, if they figured the condo fee they could pay to have the lawn mowed, the snow removed and set money aside for other maintenance. They’d still be ahead because they wouldn’t also be maintaining the common areas, club house, etc.
I wouldn’t bet on widespread retirement among the Boomers. Very few of them have enough savings to support not working.
We’re planning on early retirement and continuing to work. It’s not ideal but looks like the best plan for us for a few years. We are considering selling our house and moving but haven’t decided. I’m not sure that I want to be responsible for repairs to a house built in the 1930’s but not sure I want either rent or house payments either.
Had a conversation about this over the weekend. Our consensus estimate was that about 30% of boomers will retire under their own power, another 30% will retire with complete reliance on SS and other taxpayer supported programs, and 40% will work or hustle until they drop.
This boomer just retired. No mortage. No HELOC. No CCs. I plan to live off what little royalties my books generate, and maybe off SS and lifeguarding parttime at the local swimming pool. So far, I don’t miss teaching.
I am contemplating the same but I would prefer just a change….I am thinking about going to NOLA for awhile or maybe Miss…Look to do some rehab work for Habitat or something along those lines….
Hey Doug, what book did you write? Also when will it be a good time to buy up your way? (Boone to sugar mt.) I love it there. I`m 42 so won`t retiring anytime soon.
Lane
Congratulations Doug. I think I don’t quite count as a boomer, having been conceived while WWII was still going on, and born in 45, but I feel like Doug, happy to have escaped treadmill, worrying only about my superprime Trailer Trash clientele (still no defaults), moving around the US with the sun and seasons. Scdave is a good soul, but I’ve wanted to know how Habitat can be regarded as helpful in a situation where brand new housing is overbuilt? An honest question!
Lane,
I hope Ben doesn’t mind my hawking my books here, but if you go to Black Bear Books in Boone, they have copies of all my books.
I’m retired and my husband is retiring in June. We’re in our mid to late 50’s. We don’t have to work, but probably will do something part time to keep from getting bored.
Andy Griffith and Beirut…applies to Decatur, Aurora, Joliet….
arson- Lawrence ma would be primo for that
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080121/ap_on_re_us/massachusetts_fire
“I’ve been doing this 30-some years,’ he said. ‘And the prices now are back to where they were 20-some years ago.”
I guess real estate doesn’t always go up.
I’d put it another way. The capital gain return on a home sale is speculative, may not materialize, and will probably be less what is available for other assets, despite the advantages of leverage (which quickly become disadvantages in a downturn).
So the real value of homeownership is…drumroll please…having a place to live.
Some of the Free Press comments to the article are rather crude, but others correctly point out that to get to some of these nice ‘hoods, you have to go through other ‘hoods where the preferred mode of transportation ought to be a helicopter gunship.
exactly WT
perusing the ny times re section yesterday and was shokced at the price of rentals in park slope bk $3900 for 1 bedroom in park slope? wtf is going on in brooklyn?
and when will these deep price cuts hit nyc ??
my lease expires in 4 months going to have to re-sign
If Wall Street lays off from the bottom, lots of young people will go back where they came from, and new ones will not arrive. You’ll only have the ones who really want to live here, not those looking for a big score. And rents will have to adjust downward accordingly.
How fast will this happen? Hard to say.
These are wishing rents. I live on the UWS (low 70’s) and rents are nowhere near as high. Even 2-brms are cheaper than that here.
FB! Without a doubt.
So the real value of homeownership is…drumroll please…having a place to live.
More like having an affordable place to live.
It’s always been that. Never understood the whole “always goes up” bit.
Got a roof over head? Check.
Got good food to eat? Check.
Got good friends? Check.
Got love? Check.
Got a life? Check.
End of story.
‘It just seemed like a nice strategic move for building equity,’ Jamie Sammons said.”
This sentence sounds like it was spoonfed to him by some Mortgage broker! And Sammons probably liked saying phrases like “strategic move” and “building equity” because it made him feel like a wheeler-dealer!
Good Lord, reuven, you’re using cynicism? Aren’t you afraid of being, well, clobbered by the more sensitive?
That was supposed to say, “you’re expressing cynicism, ” not using it. I couldn’t stop the post after hitting the button.
I saw that Realtor add today that everyone was talking about, that recklessly says “on average homes double in price every ten years.” They left out the line that says “historically, however, homes are more than 40% cheaper then they are now based on rental and income ratios.” It’s still not as bad as the one with the poor guy who is stressing about being able to afford a home, and his wife convinces to do it anyway for the family. That’s just sick.
ad
Ahh yes. The Suzanne researched this ad with the nagging hag and spineless jellyfish of a husband. What losers.
The price of homes in Detroit is a red-herring. The insurance and taxes are murder. You can live a block north of 8 mile (like I did) for a *fraction* of the cost of living just south of 8 mile.
Plus you have the social stigma of living south of 8 mile and the persistent belief that entering Detroit is the equivalent of *asking* to get shot.
Some of those turn of the century houses sound tempting….
WEATHER????
Hey….it was above zero here this morning…..all is fine.
Weather?
It keeps the riff-raff out.
I looked up Detroit on Zillow once. Half-empty blocks that look like they’ve been bombed. Houses for $30k. Similar houses go from $60k to $160k in the space of a couple of blocks when you cross into Grosse Pointe Park.
I can’t begin to understand the social and economic conditions behind these price patterns.
Nice interactive informative map by the WSJ showing information and trends including rising deliquencues and declining housing prices in major metropolitan areas in the US.
Sorry if this link been posted before but it is simple enough to be shown to and understood by the moronic hardcore housing bears and RE agents in your vicinities because it HAS pictures
http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/retro-MORTGAGE0807.html
“For the workers who build the houses the adjustments are even tougher: going from weeks where 50 hours wasn’t enough to get all of the work done, to times where they are happy if they work three days out of five.”
This is a problem we haven’t discussed much…
Most people in our country (sadly) equate what they do with a living, as the end-all, be-all of their life.
Proud tradesmen being reduced to out of work tradesmen, through no fault of their own.
What’s plan B, for wasted talent?
I’m sure there are cities other than Detroit where you could have said a few decades back that there were “historic, large homes available for astonishing bargains”.
And indeed, many large fortunes have been made by buying at the right time. However, if the city in question suffers a long-term downtrend, those “bargains” may never regain their former price.
In fact, when on holidays in the US in early 2001, I remember staying a night at the HI-USA hostel in Syracuse. In its day it must have been at least an upper middle class SFH, but when I checked out the prevailing prices for equivalent unconverted homes in the district I was astounded at how cheap they were.
I mentioned the other day, that I read an article about Buffalo that pointed out, that 10% of the new population of the city since 1995 was the new poor, as cheap housing attracts those, whose finances are on the cheap.
lose-lose situation.
You can buy a million dollar (replacement cost) Century old white elephant for $100K all around, but you’ll pay like it’s a million dollar house when it comes to utilities and maintenance.
The weird feeling for a Californian being in Buffalo, is that houses are giveaway cheap, but everything else costs the same, if not more.
p.s.:
After being in Buffalo a week, and driving around, it dawned on me that 90% of the billboards we saw, were scummy lawyers offering their services, in suing somebody, anybody.
A rusted carcass, feeding off of itself.
The whole trick is the “right place, right time” part.
Realtors couldn’t give away the 19th century mansions on Chicago’s Prairie ave. in the ’80s and early ’90s — they could be had for a song. I know someone who bought one for less than $50K. It wasn’t until the late ’90s that the area experienced a resurgence, however. So many Prairie Ave. real estate holders would’ve had to hold on for a long, long time. In fact, many of those mansions came down during the last boom to make way for condo buildings.
Look at the South Side of Chicago.
Just look at what’s left of the magnificent Garfield Blvd (S. 55th) from its heydays, and compare the equivalent still standing mansions in Kenwood.
Same thing with New York.
People have forgotten that Harlem used to be the crown jewel of Manhattan real estate followed by a long slow decline.
Just walking up there and watching the magnificent brownstones all crumbling is enough to make you cry.
Been having trouble posting and will try again:)
Nice informative Interactive map of delinquencies and housing prices by the WSJ.
http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/retro-MORTGAGE0807.html
Great stuff. Those California delinquents have come on so strong and knocked Brownsville out of first place.
In case you didn’t notice, the data only goes to 2nd qtr 2007.
Bit dated by now - it is now over 2 qtrs behind.
Hey Ben, Des Moines is in Iowa, not Indiana
because iowa and indiana are completely different? if you say so
condo’s in iowa ? funny stuff
what’s next? deeded parking spots in montana?
Indiana and Iowa are quite different. One is primarily an industrial state and the other is primarily an agricultural state. One has a GDP more than double the other. One is fairly diverse, even attracts more international college students than any other state in the country, the other not so much.
Then again, they’re both in flyover country. Nothing but cornfields out here.
I don’t think any harm was intended. I have no idea what the difference is between Washington and Oregon, Connecticut and Massachusetts, or North and South Carolina.
But I can tell you the difference between all the Midwestern states and all of the countries in the Balkans. It’s just a question of what one has experienced.
Since the original poster is apparently from NYC, I’ll throw in that, to me, the Bronx and Brooklyn and Queens are the same, and I barely know the difference between Staten Island and Long Island.
30+ year resident of IN, but have visited Iowa. Northern Indiana and Iowa have similar topopgraphy, and yes, you’ll see lots and lots of corn in both places, but Indiana’s population density feels almost NYC like compared to Iowa. Essentially Iowa packs half the population of Indiana into a state that is about a third larger. Indiana isn’t crowded by any stretch of the imagination, but by comparison, Iowa may as well be the Empty Quarter.
Indiana has a fairly decent sized mid major city (greater Indy is ~1 million), and the NW part (Lake and Porter counties) is essentialy a suburb of Chicago. Des Moines is perhaps a quarter to a third of Indy’s size. IN has 2 large Big 10 schools and a decent sized private university; Iowa has one B10 and a much smaller Big XII school. Iowa has no industry of which I am aware, by contrast, more steel is made in Indiana than any otherth. So while they’re both in flyover country, they’re not anywhere near identical.
No, it’s in Washington. (grin)
It’s really in California
competition w ? lubbock
Zentz & Associates of Rockford concentrates on the condominium market,
this may be the winner
racine,lubbock, now Rockford
‘There was a lot of hanky-panky going on, and there were a lot of unsophisticated buyers who were taken advantage of,’
Cue for Housing Hanky Panky to offer comment?
why can’t he just say there was out and out fraud?
stop beating around the bush already
watchibg this bubble unwind
is like a slow motion train wreck
“Hanky Panky” used to refer to a zesty session - naughtiness between consenting adults. How’d it get perverted into a housing bubble term?
Rate Cuts won’t stop the housing decline. Why? Because as they cut, food and energy skyrocket which leaves less to pay the mortgage. Oh yeah, they are in a pickle now.
Alan Lev’s comments on the Chicago scene are, IMO, quite telling.
Notice how he readily admits to slowing sales and rising inventories but he is nonetheless going ahead with his Loop condos - perhaps one of the most overbuilt of our local environments.
There’s a strange optimism that oozes from the comments of Chicago’s REIC community - it admits there’s a problem - but that admission always seems to come with the implied qualifier that this area is immune.
Sure, we see this sentiment in every post from every corner of the country but Chicago’s condo developers seem to have their own special brand of “it’s different here”. It’s hip, it’s edgy, it’s totally in your face - just like the legions of suckers they build all those condos for.
It was supposed to be a 1,000 year REIC?
Excellent!
“There’s a strange optimism that oozes from the comments of Chicago’s REIC community - ”
It really isn’t just Chicago. I spend the last years in Bozeman, MT and Pullman, WA and the real estate community in both of these little towns are CONVINCED to the marrow of their bones that their place is “special”, “unique” and will never see declining prices… even when prices are actually declining. That’s just an anomoly, a blip, etc…
Well, the NAR is based here — the propaganda shock troops can be dispersed in force at a moment’s notice to dispel any notion of falling prices.
Here’s an excerpt from an e-mail newsletter I get from the realty firm @Properties (I have no idea how I got on their list, but I read it for kicks). Note the revised positivism of “pricing intelligently”:
In 2007 Chicago home values, especially in the city, stood up well. Looking ahead, we see many good opportunities in 2008 and have every reason to believe prices will remain stable or rise slightly. We also anticipate additional Fed Rate cuts, allowing more first-time buyers to qualify and stimulating activity on up the real estate food chain.
This year more than ever sellers must price intelligently and bring their property to market in pristine condition. A listing will ultimately net more by being the best property in a lower price range vs. “running with the pack” in the next range up.
ET, that excerpt perfectly illustrates what I was fumbling to describe earlier.
And as you know, @Properties are quite THE condo pimps and they are in deep! But where are the “first time” buyers they mention - the ones with 10 and 20% downpayments? That crowd has already bought in long ago and the stragglers are not up to the task of propping this thing up. The price tags on their condos are way beyond the means of any entry level buyers that might remain. A $250k one bedroom condo should not be considered a starter home in Chicago!
One thing I am sure that every HBBer can agree upon is that there is no way this game ends in 2008.
I am from Iowa and didn’t realize it’s that bad back there. I talked to a Realtor from Cedar Rapids on Friday, and he said he has seen more people come to closing with cash when they sell their home than ever in his career (15+ years)!
I saw this a lot back in 2000-01. Sellers paying at closing to make up the difference from what they got compared to what they owed.
Forget housing for a second. today is one of the biggest financial global meltdowns in history. Some of the world markets are down almost 10%. Europe down 5%.
DOW futures are -500!!!! A crash may be on the way. Housing is dead. Everyone needs to get out of equities until this crapstorm is over. We are on the verge of a watershed moment in equities.
I have never been so fearful of stocks in my life. Get into money markets if you can. The stock market is now realizing things are not contained.
Just keep in mind what the money markets represent. If they’re not 100% treasury funds they most likely have MBS or CDO exposure.
So, one solution is to spread one’s funds $99,000 each at FDIC banks, if you can afford to await access. Another solution is that major brokerage firms, even if their money market funds are full of kr@P, must not confiscate yr securities if you have T bonds in your personal account or (my preference) the bonds issued by the Treasuries of some other countries.
Make that $95k or $97.5k each. You want the accrued interest to be insured.
Chick & Hoz can you jump in here with a comment please…What do you see ??
Europe and the rest of the Americas are pretty brutal..down anywhere from 4-8% in a single trading day.
http://finance.yahoo.com/intlindices?e=europe
http://finance.yahoo.com/intlindices?e=americas
Tomorrow may be Black Tuesday.
Just remember that in the days following Black Monday, AG pumped in liquidity to get the stock market moving again. Also remember that BB is a disciple of AG. You will sleep much better if you keep these facts in mind.
“The market is finally catching on to the fact that a recession will lead to a sharp contraction in earnings.”
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=avRwHMFOShe4&refer=home
This generally doesn’t bother me, because I chose not to seek out the biggest bucks in my career, and have about everything I could ever want. But it does seem strange that the annual salaries of those “finally catching on” start at about 10 times my own.
I don’t think I deserve more, relative to J6P. So what is the logical alternative?
Personally, I’m a big believer in wanting what I have. Leads to a much more peaceful life than forever chasing after the “I want to haves.”
But, when I need things, I turn to…
http://www.freecycle.org/
And, if I can’t find it there, I go to…
http://tucson.craigslist.org/
I also like to shop at estate sales and yard sales.
Freecycle was kinda cool….
What do you mean ‘was cool’?
Still is. Give stuff away I don’t need all the time.
Was not suggesting the past tense…Just visited for the first time after Slim’s post…
Holly Molly! yup Dow futures off 500+ points @11:45am Chicago time, head for the hills. I am 90%+ in CDs at the moment and doubled up on BEARX. The patterns remind me of Black Monday (Oct 19, 1987)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Monday_%281987%29
Well, I”m gonna be pissed if that happens. I sold my puts 75 S&P points ago.
I’m in the same boat: 4 CDs and the rest is basically cash, which makes me feel stupid. The 401k guy came to our office a few weeks ago and I have 2 weeks to decide if I should invest. Logic says yes. The market for now seems not so clear. I’m a young guy, so maybe I’ll just throw in 100 bucks per week or something.
Get in it, and put in whatever they match into money market. 100% gain off the bat is nothing to sneeze at. I dont like my companys at all, and im still putting a small percent in.
Not to worry, I suspect a “surprise” rate cut is coming, but only after shorts are reeled in.
“All that remained was to negotiate a discount on the $9,500 in delinquent association fees and charges from an attorney representing the association.”
“But neither the association nor its attorney would budge, said Lynch. Lynch added that two prospective purchasers walked away rather than pay the fees. ‘They’re killing sales. It’s just a nightmare.’”
And this is why you have to be nuts to buy into a condo building that is either newish or has had significant turn over in the last 5 years. People aren’t paying their fees. Elevators break. Roofs need maintenance. Boilers don’t last forever. I might prefer a condo long term but I don’t dare even think about one. This down turn limits everyone’s options.
More than 80% of my mortgage loans are on condo-type properties — i.e., the lots are in RV parks or MH parks where the individual lot owners have collective title to the laundromat, swimming pool, billiard room, etc. In re-po situations, I was informed by my lawyer that (for AZ) the lender’s interest is senior to the association’s interest. So these assns that refuse to deal, are basically forcing FC! … if the laws in their state are the same.
In my own case, I have so many loans outstanding in such a small handful of parks, that it behooves me to get along with the condo boards there. Hence, in the last re-po situation, I told the board I would promptly catch up the back assn fees if they would just waive late fees (they did). In that way, I was spared the hassle of FC. Got the FB’s to sign quitclaim to me, by way of a small bribe. FBs knew they would lose property anyway.
And this is why you have to be nuts to buy into a condo building that is either newish or has had significant turn over in the last 5 years.
This whole housing mess has just about turned me against condos forever. Who’s to say how much you will pay in fees if half your building becomes vacant because they can’t afford the mortgage. Someone has to pay to maintain the building. It’s kind of like buying a vacation house with a bunch of relatives or friends and a couple of them skip out on their obligations, so the rest of you are stuck.
“But neither the association nor its attorney would budge, said Lynch. Lynch added that two prospective purchasers walked away rather than pay the fees. ‘They’re killing sales. It’s just a nightmare.’”
If the association can prevent any sales in the neighborhood, the comps can’t come down. It’s brilliant!
Professor
Agreed but this problem is too big for the FED. I would short on the bounce after the liquidity injection. IMO this is Japan all over agin. A massive deflationary recession where assets plummet. Stay far away from gold long term. Short term it may work based on fear but long term all assets will free fall because everything was bousht with credit. This will all dissappear as banks reign in lending. The game is over.
Buy short funds and ETF’s like QID, SDS, BEARX. All are nice hedges for your long portfolio.
Yep. We are going exactly the way of the Japanese. It’s the reason I think we’ll have 10-15 years of falling property prices. Stocks will get crushed too. Not touching gold either, as it will probably get smoked as people need to liquidate winners to raise cash.
“Buy short funds and ETF’s like QID, SDS, BEARX. All are nice hedges for your long portfolio.”
The thing that scares me, is that IS my long term portfolio. I keep thinking that i should sell on the next bounce, but I really, really doubt the bounce will be high or far, before the grind down starts again.
Canadian market down 4% today. You’ll have fun in the States when your market opens tomorrow morning!!!!
Friggin’ holidays…the suspense is killing me.
“All that remained was to negotiate a discount on the $9,500 in delinquent association fees and charges from an attorney representing the association.” ‘
I am so glad I am not in any kind of HOA or condo assn. Both houses I have owned are in areas where people used to just buy a lot and build their own place, or buy 3 lots and build one house, and later sell off the other lots or build an MIL house.
Why can’t it be like that - why did everyone thing HOA’s were such a great idea? Was it to enforce covenants, or because subdivisions have to have so much common area now to maintain? It’s whack.
Developers. HOAs are residue left behind by developers. They want control over the entire development until they’ve extracted their cash from the whole thing.
In many places, the County will mandate HOAs. I’m particularly familiar with Orange County, FL. The county government requires an HOA for all new development, because they believe it will reduce county costs for dealing with community issues.
I’ve seen “developments” that were nothing more than lots sliced out of a piece of swamp, no common areas other than a sign with the development’s name on it, that had an HOA, an “Architectural Review Board” and CC&Rs. Imagine having to deal with your old-biddy neighbors on the “review board” every time you want to put up a satellite dish or paint your house, but that’s the HELL that most people in Florida willingly bought themselves into over the past decade or so.
I will NEVER buy into a community with a homeowner’s association PERIOD. It is the job of the local government to take care of the neighborhood not the self appointed HOA Nazis. Since ‘93 when I bought a SFH, no extra fees, no “laws” about shrub height, … I could not be happier
services the local goverment has to take into account that when make a subdevelopment they have to provide services like road, utilities, maintenance, police, fire, schools, medical.
With a HOA the city or town doesnt have to worry about fixing pot holes and what not its the job of the loval HOA so maintenance and up keep arent on the their dime
Also you ever live in a neighborhood with trash cars on the front law, childern and dogs running everywhere maybe a few chickens?
people will pay to know extra to be sure that will never happen to them
Also you ever live in a neighborhood with trash cars on the front law, childern and dogs running everywhere maybe a few chickens?
I live in an HOA-less neighborhood. We have horrible things here that would all be prohibited by an HOA:
1. Basketball hoops
2. A purple house
3. Someone who leaves their Christmas lights on year-round
4. A kid who practices the guitar in the garage
5. Toys left in front yards
6. A boat parked in a driveway
An you know what? I wouldn’t want to live in a neighborhood that had a self-appointed private fascist government to stop these offenses!
This is by far the nicest place I’ve ever lived in.
Quote:I live in an HOA-less neighborhood. We have horrible things here that would all be prohibited by an HOA:
“Also you ever live in a neighborhood with trash cars on the front law, childern and dogs running everywhere maybe a few chickens?”
Yes, with the first place but the trash wasn’t very close to me. Kids I don’t mind. And our city just passed a law allowing Urban Chickens in town so it could happen anywhere. I’m right outside the city limits now.
Seems like a lot of HOA’s don’t enforce their rules anyway. People don’t want to complain or get lazy.
commenting on an earlier thread — My wife and I drove across the U.S. 3 years ago. Those stupid communities are on the outskirts of every town. Just gross. Also, as you drove into any relatively major city there was “construction” where you had to slow down to 20 mph. My wife’s theory is that they have cameras scanning all the cars.