A Serious Economic Challenge
Some housing bubble news from Wall Street and Washington. CNN Money, “The housing market is only getting worse, according to the latest report from S&P Case/Shiller released Tuesday. Home prices were down 8.4 percent in November compared with last year in its 10-city index, a record low. The 20-city index also fell 7.7 percent. The Case/Shiller report compares same-home sale prices. The industry considers it to be one of the most accurate snapshots of housing prices.”
“‘We reached another grim milestone in the housing market in November,’ said economist Robert Shiller, co-creator the index in a statement. ‘Not only did the 10-city composite index post another record low in its annual growth rate, but 13 of the 20 metro areas, each with data back to 1991, did the same.’”
“The worst hit market of the 20 metro areas covered was Miami, where the median home fell a whopping 15.1 percent in value. San Diego prices also fell steeply, down 13.4 percent. Las Vegas was off 13.2 percent and Detroit by 13 percent.”
“Every city in the index recorded at least three consecutive months of falling prices through November.”
“The three biggest U.S. cities also recorded year-over-year declines; New York was down 4.8 percent, Los Angeles 11.9 percent and Chicago 3.9 percent. The losses in Los Angeles accelerated in November; that city recorded the largest month-over-month drop of any index city, 3.6 percent.”
From MarketWatch. “For the 20 cities, prices fell a record 2.1% in November. In the past three months, prices fell at an annual rate of 16.2%.”
“The housing and mortgage meltdown caused the biggest one-year drop in the rate of homeownership on record, according to government figures released Tuesday.”
“The Census Bureau report showed that home owners accounted for 67.8% of occupied homes in the fourth quarter, down 1.1 points from a year earlier. It’s the largest year-over-year drop recorded in the report. The ownership rate was also well below the 68.2% ownership rate in the third quarter of 2007.”
“Homeownership rates, which have been tracked since 1965, hit a record high of 69.2% at the end of 2004.”
“The report also also showed a record 2.18 million homes vacant and available for sale in the fourth quarter, up from the 2.07 million in the third quarter and the 2.1 million a year earlier.”
“The fourth-quarter reading on vacant homes for sale matched the previous record set in the first three months of 2007.”
“The number of foreclosures soared in 2007, with 405,000 households losing their home, according to a report released Tuesday. That’s up 51 percent from the 268,532 homes that were repossessed in 2006.”
“Total foreclosure filings soared 97% in December alone compared with December of 2006, according to RealtyTrac. For the year, total filings - which include default notices, auction sale notices and bank repossessions - grew 75%.”
“More than 1 percent of all U.S. households were in some stage of foreclosure during 2007, up from 0.58 percent the year before.”
From Reuters. “Countrywide Financial Corp, the largest U.S. mortgage lender, on Tuesday said more than one in three subprime mortgages were delinquent at year-end in the $1.48 billion portfolio of home loans it services.”
“Countrywide said borrowers were delinquent on 33.64 percent of subprime loans it serviced as of December, up from 29.08 percent in September.”
From Bloomberg. “Countrywide Financial Corp lost $422 million in the fourth quarter, failing on its promise to return to profitability. The mortgage company posted a $1.2 billion third-quarter loss, its first in 25 years.”
“Provisions for credit losses were $924 million in the fourth quarter, compared with $937 million in the preceding quarter and $73 million in the year-earlier period. Results included $831 million of impairment charges tied mostly to home- equity securitizations (and) a $394 million writedown on loans the company holds.”
“Loan production recorded a pretax loss of $448 million. Total loans funded fell 48 percent to $61.2 billion. Countrywide said 3.6 percent of the outstanding balances of home equity loans for ‘prime,’ borrowers in its servicing portfolio were more than 90 days overdue as of Dec. 31, up from 1.4 percent a year earlier.”
“Countrywide faces a lawsuit by the New York city and state comptrollers and their pension funds, alleging Countrywide defrauded investors with overly optimistic comments. The lawsuit added 26 securities firms and two accounting firms this month as defendants.”
“In its annual report filed with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, Goldman said it was cooperating with requests from governmental agencies and self-regulatory organizations for information about securitizations, collateralized debt obligations and synthetic products related to subprime mortgages.”
“Meanwhile, in its annual report filed with the SEC, Morgan Stanley said it was responding to subpoenas and information requests from governments and regulators concerning subprime and non-subprime mortgages. The SEC filings came on Tuesday.”
“Morgan Stanley also said it was a defendant in lawsuits over its role as an underwriter of preferred stock offerings for mortgage lenders New Century Financial Corp, and Countrywide Financial Corp.”
“Imagine a Morgan Stanley broker telling his or her client about some assets that are nearly worthless because they can’t be sold. Would that customer feel any better that the brokerage was simply ‘reclassifying’ that investor’s losses?”
“That seems to be the question facing investors in Morgan Stanley today after the brokerage and investment bank said it reclassified $7 billion of funded assets and $279 million in unfunded assets from Level 2 to Level 3.”
“The levels are a new kind of accounting parlance Wall Street instituted last year. The bigger the number, the harder it is to sell or value the securities in question. In other words, Morgan Stanley no longer knows how much these assets are worth because no one is buying.”
“Just as troubling for investors is how Morgan Stanley announced the move: It was buried on page 64 of its 191-page quarterly report. It’s been a long three months since the firm won kudos for taking an aggressive $3.7 billion write-down that many thought would represent the worst for the firm.”
“Home builder Meritage Homes Corp posted a net loss for the fourth quarter compared with a year-earlier profit, in part because of lower sales and charges for lower land values reflecting the slumping U.S. housing market.”
“‘This has been the most difficult year we’ve experienced in homebuilding in more than 25 years, and we currently expect 2008 will also be challenging,’ Steven Hilton, Meritage’s CEO, said in a statement.”
“The fourth quarter net loss included $130 million of pretax real estate-related and joint venture valuation adjustments and $58 million of pretax goodwill write-offs.”
“During the quarter, Meritage reduced its inventory of homes built on speculation by 10 percent, cut its purchases under options by about $55 million, and acquired about 650 fewer lots than it did the prior quarter.”
“During the quarter, home closing revenue fell 25 percent to $615.6 million, due to an 18 percent decline in homes closed to 2,139, and a 9 percent decline in the average selling price of a home. Arizona had the largest decline in home closings, down 44 percent.”
“New orders fell 13 percent to 1,048 and the value of the orders were off 23 percent to $271.6 million.”
“Florida-based home builder TOUSA Inc TOUS.PK said it is filing for protection under Chapter 11, as part of a proposed restructuring, in the wake of the crumbling U.S. housing market.”
“The filing includes TOUSA Homes Inc, Newmark Homes LP and entities that represent all their brands — Engle Homes, Newmark Homes, Fedrick, Harris Estate Homes and Trophy Homes.”
“Tousa Inc. lost 98 percent of its market value in the past year. There were 37 affiliates that also filed today.”
“Tousa, the largest builder by assets and debts in bankruptcy and at least the 14th to file since June, missed three interest payments this month as home sales and prices fell in Florida, where the company does most of its business.”
“The builder never recovered from the August 2005 purchase of Transeastern Properties Inc., a closely held Coral Springs, Florida-based homebuilder, said Robert Curran, a managing director at Fitch Ratings, who covers builders.”
“‘It was too much for Tousa, in the midst of a major market correction — particularly bad in Florida — and the addition of Transeastern never got any traction,’ Curran said.”
“‘It’s possible we’ll see more homebuilders, both public and private, file for bankruptcy,’ Curran said. ‘As weak as housing has been, a possible recessionary environment will weaken it further still.’”
“Other homebuilders, such as Hovnanian Enterprises Inc., have said that Florida has been a drag on earnings. Hovnanian Chief Financial Officer Larry Sorsby referred last month to a ‘Fort Myers effect’ on the Red Bank, New Jersey-based builder’s profit margins.”
“‘This action is necessary to reflect the realities of today’s homebuilding market,’ Antonio B. Mon, Tousa’s CEO, said in a company statement.”
“Florida had the second-highest number of foreclosure filings and properties in some stage of foreclosure in 2007 behind California. With more than 2 percent of its households entering some stage of foreclosure, Florida documented the second-highest state foreclosure rate for 2007, more than twice the previous year.”
“Nevada posted the highest foreclosure rate for 2007 of 3.4 percent.”
The Philadelphia Inquirer. “In the annals of financial fiascoes, the subprime-lending crisis has been especially big, messy and legally complex. What’s more, people could end up going to jail.”
“For weeks, a drumbeat has emerged from Philadelphia law firms calling attention to new or existing practice groups focusing on the subprime mess. As a general rule, it amounts to a repackaging of mortgage-lending, insurance, white-collar defense, bankruptcy and litigation services that firms have been providing for decades.”
“But this repositioning is occurring in an entirely new and somewhat unfathomable context: an explosion of lawsuits, coverage disputes, and now criminal investigations resulting from the collapse of credit and housing markets.”
“‘There have been a lot of borrowers who have been hurt by what has happened here, and there is no doubt that foreclosures are skyrocketing, and now you see what is happening in the stock market. So there is a natural urge to figure out who is at fault, and that results in a lot of litigation,’ said Alan Kaplinsky of one of the firms to set up a subprime-practice group.”
“Tad Decker, CEO of Cozen O’Connor, said his firm was pulling together lawyers who focused on litigation, white-collar defense and bankruptcy to respond to diverse clients facing subprime problems. The firm’s long-standing insurance practice also has found a niche interpreting coverage contracts for insurers facing payouts for the actions of corporate officers of companies sued by burned subprime investors.”
“‘This is a very visible, public problem that is affecting almost everyone,’ Decker said.”
“‘In these kinds of situations, there are always fingers being pointed, and deep pockets sought, and scalps to try and obtain,’ said Hank Hockeimer, a former federal prosecutor who now is a white-collar defense lawyer with the subprime group at Ballard Spahr.”
“‘I don’t think you can point to one person’s scheming or fraudulent behavior as causing this,’ said Bonnie Glantz Fatell, leader of the business-restructuring and bankruptcy group at Blank Rome L.L.P. ‘Housing values were going up, and there was a lot of money in the market, and people were getting very creative in how to offer financing to people with all levels of qualification.’”
The Tribune Herald. “As domestic and foreign investment markets continue to seesaw, financial experts advise that there’s only one good option, uncomfortable as it may seem: Ride out the storm.”
“‘At the present time, there are not a lot of good options available to individuals to protect themselves from this decline,’ said Baylor University economics professor Kent Gilbreath, who was a member of the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas board of directors from 1979-1986.”
“‘Perhaps an analogy would be best here: passengers on an airplane that is losing altitude. There is nothing the passengers can do except buckle their seat belts and hope that the drop in altitude ends,’ he said.”
“Gilbreath and other economic experts say they have seen this economic struggle on the horizon for some time, but many were caught off-guard.”
“‘It’s not a good time,’ said Gilbreath, who presented a paper at the Western Economics Association’s international meeting in July titled ‘The Coming Perfect Economic Storm.’ ‘I’m normally a very optimistic person and, while I expected a serious economic challenge, this financial crisis has caused a financial decline earlier than I anticipated. I didn’t think it was likely to come until about 2010…The nation wasn’t prepared for it now.’”
‘We reached another grim milestone in the housing market in November,’ said economist Robert Shiller’
This is what I mean about Shillder coming off as an apologist. Why doesn’t he tell the media this is a neccesary adjustment or something?
Also, where is LA Investor girl with her ‘are we there yet, are we there yet’? Is it possible she drank the kool-aid and is one of these cardboard box statistics?
Mark to Miami
“The worst hit market of the 20 metro areas covered was Miami, where the median home fell a whopping 15.1 percent in value.”
Ha! I’d like to see another 15% this year and 15% drop in 2009 there in Miami!
CNN also has an article about the plummeting rate of home ownership. Yet another thing ‘reverting to mean’ as it goes :
http://tinyurl.com/3a2px3
1.1 percent drop. That means in the last year, over 1 percent of the population has moved from owning to renting. Pretty steep drop. But we’re just getting started, I think.
1.1% is steep? huh?
Steepest on record, by far. Next steepest was -0.7%, in 1985. Says a lot.
sfb is right that we’re just getting started. Even at the current steep rate - we’ve still got about 3-4 years to go to get down to the historical rate of about 64%.
She is hold up in a cave in Afghanistan with LV_Landlord and VA_Infestation…
hey crispy
how could you forget their new joint venture which of course
is being funded by our friend the “hedgefundanalyst”
And don’t forget the housing troll from Maine where real estate never falls.
Would love to know the actual, correct, updated stats for Maine if you have them…
Hey, they’re not making any more caves - gotta get in now!
“Hey, they’re not making any more caves - gotta get in now! ”
In North China in the yellow river region over 80,000,000 chinese actually live in caves dug into terraced slopes and hillsides. So much of the farm land there is built on steeply terraced slopes that it is a natural progression to dig hillside caves as dwellings. Very simple design : a brick % wooden facade/ doorway , a rear bedroom in back and the living room at the front. Not as fanciful as those depicted in Lord of the rings but apparantly practical and dirt cheap to live in.
I wonder if they could convert the Santa Monica/ Malibu bluffs into cave dwellings as there is a need for affordable housing on the LA westside . Better yet Bluff or hillside condo-tels. Just My opinion but those bluffs rather ragged anyhow.
Are those the caves that are carved into loess? In any ‘quake, they will get squished big time…
This listing in New Mexico on over 100 acres will get you through some of the rough times-
http://www.realtor.com/search/listingdetail.aspx?ctid=16722&mnp=26&mxp=27&typ=7&sid=257620456b3b40039b44c3e779310f6c&lid=1084909373&lsn=2&srcnt=34#Detail
‘We reached another grim milestone in the housing market in November’.
Grim? What’s grim about it? I’d say it’s another ‘great’ milestone with may more to come!
Why doesn’t he tell the media this is a neccesary adjustment or something?
Shiller makes his money by providing accurate measurements of the housing market. I don’t think that making pronouncements on what prices should do will earn him points for impartiality of those measurements, as much as I would like him to make those pronouncements.
In related news: There’s an audio interview on MarketWatch.com with Shiller that is worth a listen. It’s about 3 minutes long, and I can’t provide a tinyurl because it’s a javascript popup. Choice items from my notes:
“The bottom may be years away.”
Mentioned that job mobility is impaired due to not being able to sell current homes.
Singled NAR out for misleading ads claiming that prices double every 10 years.
Singled NAR out for misleading ads claiming that prices double every 10 years.
I see a class action tort being filed against the NAR for this misleading information inthe very near future. The NAR has been misleading the public for some time now and it may be time to pay the piper.
That is unlikely to happen. Successful tort actions require allegations that the defendant breached a duty of care. I’m not aware of any duty of care that NAR owes to the public that it could have breached. Individual real estate agents, brokers and/or the companies that employ them may be a different story.
I see principals of the heavyweight Philadelphia law firms being quoted. Now that the Philly lawyers are involved, anyone and anything who had the slightest association with the subprime mess will be sued -frequently and with vigor.
That is unlikely to happen.
I think it is very likly to happen. They will be named in a tort and perhaps a class action. It’s not a duty of care issue, it’s more along the lines of knowingly and intentionally causing harm to the public through decptive practices that may bite them. The first year of law school teaches you to name everyone and sort it out during discovery.
i agree with that too. not grim for me. just waiting.
So, does anyone have the current drop-from-the-peak % for San Diego?
Based on the Case-Schiller numbers, it’s -16% in aggregate, but in lower priced homes, it’s -23%, medium priced -18%, and higher end is -10%.
Wait until the Option ARM pain begins…
Rental Watch where are you getting a breakout of the Schiller numbers by price? I find this very interesting, and somewhat counterintuitive.
I would have thought there was more room for high prices to fall–everybody has to live somewhere, but nobody needs a $1 million MacMansion. Stainless and granite aren’t really very practical.
Is it perhaps the early stage in the price decline? More lower priced houses in excess supply, instant impact in that segment, takes time to spread to other segments. Be useful to see how this spreads in earlier cycles.
Because this bubble was a credit bubble (NOT a traditional housing bubble), the momentum was pushed entirely from the bottom-up.
Back in the late 90s, the lower-end homes really started appreciating (normal housing cycle uptick) and as “free” credit was unleashed in 2001-2002, we dug further and further into the pool of entirely unqualified buyers.
The unqualified buyers brought hundreds of thousands of dollars into the starter neighborhoods, where truly qualified (non-bubble buyers), but simple/low-income people lived. These sellers brought their hundreds of thousands with them to the next level, leveraged up some more with their own “funky” loans and the process moved up the ladder.
The lowest-end buyers had ZERO skin in the game. They were underwater the second prices stopped rising.
The next level has a few hundred thousand in “equity” (their down payments) to burn through — if they didn’t spend it with refi’s and HELOCs.
As the money dries up at the bottom (no more “subprime”), there will be less money moving into the move-up tiers. This will eventually bring the move-up prices down, but for now, these people do have real equity in the form of their down payments.
Like a skyscraper that is being imploded, the implosion begins at the bottom and moves up. It is only a matter of time.
Can’t say that I’m missing lainvestorgirl. In the two plus years that I’ve been on this blog, I’ve only posted a handful of times. Usually to call lainvestorgirl a toad. That girl was hopelessly retarded.
I think she is now posting on the HGTV RE forums as Meischa. If it isn’t her, it’s her twin.
bwahahahahahaha! sorry, for the outburst. that was just unexpected and was very funny to read!
Bigwig,
lol. post more often.
Shiller comes across as an apologist because he’s still a monetarist at heart.
Having spoken to him, he doesn’t see the whole loop starting at fractional reserve banking, and central banks offering money at below the “natural” rate the market would set, and how that sets off a cycle that ends badly EVERY single time.
In short, he’s a modern economist that only works on “data”. He can’t see logical conclusions that would be completely obvious to classical economists.
He finds it hard if not downright impossible to “prove” in a statistically significant manner.
What differentiates a “modern” economist from a classical economist? Sorry for such an elementary question.
Perhaps the distinction is in regard to the strength of one’s faith in the prevailing doctrinal hegemony (i.e., post-WWII neoclassical consensus, as set forth by Paul Samuelson and perpetuated by his disciples). BB and LS are among the high priests of the doctrine.
I would just classify it as the victory of “quantitative” techniques over more “qualitatitve” ones. This results in the fallacy that anything that can’t be measured can’t be important.
To make an engineering analogy, this is the victory of precision over accuracy (and they would correctly file this under “daft”.)
If you’re interested, ferret out “The Rhetoric of Economics” by Deirdre McCloskey (born: Donald McCloskey!)
The Chicago economists just about had a cow when he/she published it. Naturally, tenure was denied.
Another simple way of looking at it is this:
Adam Smith would have no trouble following this blog.
He might argue about details, and he probably would want to know if something was “more” or “less” important, and he would probably drink a lot of whisky but there wouldn’t be any problems in conversation, convivial argument, general agreement on what matters and what doesn’t, and lots of whisky-drinking (all important!)
By contrast, bring in a modern economist, and they will talk about their models. When you bring up “fraud”, or “jingle mail”, they will say that their model cannot account for that.
Why not?
Well, we can’t “quantify” it.
So just put in a fudge factor of 10%.
DISASTER!
Hopefully, that illustrates the distinction.
okay. thanks guys. will read further.
“This results in the fallacy that anything that can’t be measured can’t be important.”
Or better yet, anything that can’t be measured can be safely ignored.
Worse, that no logical conclusions or reasonable steps of action can be taken from something that can’t be measured.
Think of how unrelentlessly daft that is!
Economists have a bad case of physics envy. The experimental psych and sociology folks do too.
And putting in a fudge factor of 10% is quite a disaster if your real fraud numbers are 50% or higher.
The problem is economics was taken over by math geeks who love to design equations that are totally inscrutable to anyone but themselves which, allegedly, “prove” their point beyond argument.
Of course, while numbers represent much of how we measure economic issues the real discipline is trying to understand how INCENTIVES work in a market. Incentives are behavorial, not easily quantified, so the math geeks ignore them.
I found a wonderful “study” by math/economic geeks at the Fed in 2005 who elegantly, mathematically, explained why there was no “bubble” in housing, complete with wonderful mathematical equations.
Funny, they never once mentioned the changes in lending that had been going on like no docs, no money down and option arm loans.
Well, if putting in a fudge factor makes all your “results” null and void, how does measuring them “precisely”, and giving “standard error estimates” matter at all?
Faster pussycat,
thanks for the explanation…your analogy was very clear.
Gracias!
Come by for dinner, spike66!
I live a block away but I’m a mean bit*h!
My guess is he doesn’t want to sound like he’s gloating. I’m sure it isn’t easy to report everything you predicted to those who were laughing at you without a hint of smugnocity. Ben?
Eh. That’s the problem with these academics. Growth is always good. No real street perspective (what these economic developments mean to the average guy), even if they might offer bearish projections. At least he’s honest with regards to those projections.
She was asking if the light fixture would hold a persons weight and if she could borrow some rope.
Shiller’s comment is rather puzzling to me. Certainly he realizes the falling prices are an inevitable consequence of the massive, unprecedented, irrationally exuberant run-up of the seven years preceding 2005, as documented in great detail by his own research? Lamenting the current price declines seems about as sensible to me as lamenting the fact that a trough follows the crest of a wave out on the ocean.
It is important to make the point that this was a bubble. He is making an error, IMO.
It is important to make the point that this was a bubble.
I think he has made the point via the data he has presented, although he does not come out and directly say this was a bubble. You might note he has mentioned the bottom is still years away.
Perhaps he is trying to keep his options open for a future stint at the Fed?
Good point!
Maybe, given the vulgar TV format, he doesn’t want to be just another circus clown.
you just have to adjust your view of watching your enemies floating by on the river to see her.
“Also, where is LA Investor girl with her ‘are we there yet, are we there yet’?”
Where indeed? I miss calling her an idiot.
We miss you calling her an idiot.
She might be preoccupied with assessing how much skin she has lost in the game.
Getting onto CNBC sells books, saying things they don’t want to hear doesn’t get you invited back.
We reached another grim milestone in the housing market in November…
Enough with the Grim Milestones™ already. I still can’t afford the median home in Las Vegas and I make twice the median income.
It’ll take two or three more GMs and maybe a Bumpy Landing™ before I’ll be looking at property.
(Assuming I still have a job, that is)
Exactly! If it gets super duper ugly, those of us who work will be screwed any way. Only the retires with cash will have the means to buy, that is if we fit young people dont just take it from them, Mad Max style.
Who needs a job when you own all those trademarks! Wish I’d thought of that.
I’m still working on the trademark for Superbole.
I’m working on the trademark for Superbowel because there’s a whole bunch of crap that needs to work its way through this mortgage mess.
Is it possible she drank the kool-aid and is one of these cardboard box statistics?
If she drank the Kool-aid of Jim Jones, she isn’t coming back.
Why weren’t there any good jokes about the Jonestown mass suicide?
The punchline was too long…
Excellent and very funny!
“BOOM BOOM”, to quote my childhood hero, Basil Brush.
“The three biggest U.S. cities also recorded year-over-year declines; New York was down 4.8 percent, Los Angeles 11.9 percent and Chicago 3.9 percent. The losses in Los Angeles accelerated in November; that city recorded the largest month-over-month drop of any index city, 3.6 percent.”
If you are renting in the city of angles, you’ve got an out…
If you own a house there, best of luck to you~
Friend of mine lives there. He says the situation there is insane: Huge amounts of homes for sale. Lots of foreclosures. A very humbling scenario. We in SF are 4-5 months behind, but I believe it has finally caught up here as well. Pretty nasty with only one or two strongholds managing to hold up, meaning they aren’t plummeting: The South Bay. As for places like Oakland, I think given another 2 years, people like me who make good incomes will have a decent chance at something. I’m very excited these days about all the ” Bad news”.
It’s worse than people think in the bay area. Just wait until the next wave of resets hits this year. Not even February yet, and inventory in San Francisco proper is about 20% over last year while sales are down 30%. We all know what that leads to.
All you need to know about the Bay area is the percent exotic mortgages. In San Fran, South Bay, all of the “rich” areas a high percentage of buyers STILL relied upon exotic mortgages to purchase homes in 2004, 2005 & 2006. In other words, people were buying more home than they could afford. Prices have to fall.
Anyone have that map showing the % interest only or option only loans? THe one showing bright red for most of CA?
I speculate that many people who live in the “rich” areas are on the hook for “investment” homes in other parts of the state or places like AZ, NV, and ID.
Brandon,
Excellent point! I’ve maintained this for sometime. One poster on another blog was having dinner in VA and over heard some “Rolling Bubble” players actually LAUGHING about how under water their “investment” properties were and how the lenders can just go ahead and keep them for all THEY care!
(True this isn’t the level of personal SUFFERING I was hoping for….) but we predicted this as well. Push come to shove these players will ditch their 2nd/vac. homes like an ugly lainvestorgirl at a dance.
The net effect? More inventory in rolling markets and more people w/ bruised credit that can’t re-fi out of their teaser loan. Keep laughing jerkwads.
I live in one of those “rich” areas and the pain is already here: there’s a foreclosure on my block, and nothing is selling. period. The perilous attitude I saw here in the boom and right up to the very end was that this area was ” too smart” to become like Sacramento. The idea is that since everyone must be wealthy here, then that somehow warrents the price. Of the people who’ve bought recently on my block, it seems like most drive crappy old cars and are seldom home either. One house has a porto-pottie in the front yard ( I kid you not) and a never-ending stream of people who seem to be renting the downstairs for usually a month or two at a time. How that translates into a good life is beyond me.
People in the Bay Area need to remove the rose colored glasses. In my opinion they’re morons made worse by the fact that they don’t even realize it.
I think Groundhog makes an important observation. People here in the bay area like to believe that it won’t happen here, that it’s special etc. Sure, alot of people here make good $, but that is irrelevant if you are overleveraged and bought way more home than you can realistically swing. And there are a TON of “investors” here as well. A couple of years ago I met a guy that was selling custom lots up near Redding. Overwhelmingly the buyers and lookers were from the bay area, and they weren’t buying for retirement homes but for “investments.” The San Jose Mercury News article from yesterday about the REO tour buses just goes to prove that there are still alot of idiots here.
Nobody’s figured out a way to foreclose on smug, so the bay area’s got that going for it, which is nice.
How many used MEW to fund those second homes?
This important it rolls the purchase loan from non-recourse to recourse and then you have worry about wage garnishment, 1099 tax liabilities form the REO sale, etc.
The folks that are laughing at how much they lost have no clue what is coming their way once the paper trail gains steam.
…when the paper trail gains steam.
Yep, more bag holders caught with falling knives when the music stops in this bubble.
“Sure, alot of people here make good $, but that is irrelevant if you are overleveraged and bought way more home than you can realistically swing.”
I think this is the key. I visited friends in Seattle this weekend. Two great incomes, lots of expenses. Bought a house at the top late in 2005 in the suburbs. Daycare. New cars, etc. I was alone with my buddy for a few hours and while he’s not sweating, he admitted that it was too much, too fast. His wife is the issue. Everyone seems to want to prove how successful they are, and in this case she is also overcompensating for her parents lack of “success” and the strained relationship she has with them.
For all the money they make, they are probably just as leveraged as those making half as much because they simply want it all, right now.
Everyone seems to want to prove how successful they are
The funny thing: If you need to prove your success, you’re not successful.
The funny thing: If you need to prove your success, you’re not successful.
It is old school to have something of value beyond your reputation. to actually check facts, etc.
For example: A bank might actually confirm I have money in savings to cover a loan. That proves my success. Similar, a good job hire might have their references checked - despite seeming like a reputable person.
I’m not for the world where perception is everything. Perception is easily manipulated.
Success is being able to say `f**k you’ to your boss (or to yourself if you’re your own boss!)
Made a similar remark to a friend today.
She is very irate[ putting it politely] re: bailouts, greed, attack on savers etc. I share her outrage but; the bottom line for me is freedom. I am free of debt, free to move, free to leave and /or tell the boss where to go. Can’t put a price on peace of mind. I am blessed .
I’d love to see lower prices in Santa Clara Cty. Don’t see it significantly yet. Inventory in Saratoga, cupertino etc is quite a bit lower than last summer. Houses still sell in 2 weeks for over asking unless there’s a significant location flaw (freeway adjacent etc).
East SJ is different. I guess that will percolate up - East SJers can’t sell to move to West SJ. West SJ can’t sell to move to Saratoga. Has not happened yet.
When are all the downtown condos going to hit the market? Seems to me a bunch of them were slated to complete construction sometime this year?
The big projects that get the most press are supposed to go to close around the same time - spring (just in time for the fabled spring bounce to not materialize again). Anecdotally, I’ve heard that up to 40% of the depositors in these towers were flippers/speculators which are now backing out.
I live in the South Bay. I did access realtor.com over the weekend - I’m now seeing small houses for sale at $200k and up. Not anywhere where you would like to live however, but it is a beginning…………
90501, sort of scary, next to Harbor Gateway (I lived in H.G. for 6 months, and that was scary). 90503, better, 90254, great if you like to party like me at H.B. Pier and like watching babes (like me). 90277, best.
Hi - I’m from LA and I’m part of the renters “I’ve got an out” that you speak of. We are finally looking at houses without having people plow me over and overbid some ridiculous price. We sat and waited. It is quite enjoyable now to stroll in, take our time, look around and wait a few more months to see what happens. Happy house waiting-to-buy to all!
RE: If you own a house there, best of luck to you~
If you own a house ANYWHERE-it’s best of luck to you.
The US business and attendent jobs market will be gutted after this downturn, just like after previous recessions for the last 35 years.
Who will be left standing remains to be seen.
In a global economy, instant mobilitiy without the albatross of a money-pit, single family, detached house will be the new paradigm.
Funny you mention mobility. The company I’m with is about to go through a global restructuring in my operating area. I pointed out that I rent and am mobile. Talk also of impact on reorganization due to housing subsidies with relocation packages. Packages historically included loss subsidies of 95% of purchase cost up to $100K
“I pointed out that I rent and am mobile.”
Please post how this works out for you. The betting here is that should work strongly to your benefit. Smart of you to speak up and let your housing status be known.
He’s probably playing up the “aw shucks” angel so he doesn’t come off looking all, “I told you so”. Because if anyone could say, “I told you so”, he could.
I mean “angle”… that is so weird. I misspelled “angle” and aladinsane misspelled “angel” (unless he was trying to be ironic or something… Funny.
aladinsane is always ironic
This has been a heck of a decade for irony fanatics…
Where is the outrage? Mozzilo and his band of thieves promised a profit this quarter - where is it? Does this not violate securities laws??
There’s at least a little outrage. Mozzilo had to dump part of his massive retirement payout. Personally, I think they should freeze ALL compensation for ALL executives at CW. They totalled that company but good, and BofA should be able to remove every last bit of retirement and pay from everbody Jr. VP and up.
Has a soon to be disgraced ceo, ever given up $37 million in Back-$heesh?
“Where is the outrage?”
Oh I’m outraged alright. (Outraged some pinhead pension fund mgr. had the brass to say “lawsuit” after actually BELIEVING… Mozilo!)
I know, I know, they ALREADY own a TON of their now worthless paper but who on the street thought they would really be in the black so soon?
They would have never listened to him if ratings agencies weren’t on his side.
RE: Mozzilo had to dump part of his massive retirement payout.
It’s FNMA’s Raines I want to see hung.
Mozzilo is just cheap sleaze compared to him.
Raines probably did more to save the GSEs than other single individual, had he not been exposed for the accounting fraud, they’d have been expanding their operations from 2004-2006 (and at lower prices than they did).
‘Course, the way companies like to hand out titles instead of raises, a “junior vp” is probably the janitor.
“passengers on an airplane that is losing altitude. There is nothing the passengers can do except buckle their seat belts and hope that the drop in altitude ends”
The drink cart needs to be added to this metaphor somehow, buckle-up, bottoms up, you might as well try to enjoy it.
Couldn’t help but think that a crash usually ends the altitude drop as well.
the last line… I didn’t think it was likely to come until about 2010…The nation wasn’t prepared for it now.’ Like two or three more years of manic buying wouldn’t have happened during that time. Very few were pulling out (boy, that works so many ways!). Maybe he’s referring to ‘The Long Emergency.
“… and hope that the drop in altitude ends”
Oh, the drop in altitude will end all right… 100% guaranteed at the ground.
as comedian Ron White says, ” we’ve got enough fuel to get us to the crash site” and “I bet we beat the paramedics there by 20 minutes”
Mozzilo’s at the “Enron School of Business Management” giving a lecture on marketing communications.
Somebody has to propose it, might as well be me…
A new reality/realty show
“Jingle Mail”
I might actually watch THAT! Only it would be more like “Cops” where FB’s are getting served eviction notices and trashing “their” former residences!
FB FB, whatcha’ gonna do..?
whatcha’ gonna do
when they come for YOU!
Filmed on location w/ the men and women of Neg./Am loan enforcement.
“Jingle Mail” is an excellent idea for a sit-com. Since the writers are still on strike it’s a golden opportunity for some enterprising youths to broadcast their own show on youtube or google video, sort of like the new Jack Black movie “Please Be Kind, Rewind”.
I recently thought a great Home & Garden type reality show would be, “Does This Pencil Out?”
Jingle Mail,
Jingle Mail,
Jingle… all the way…..
Oh, what fun,
it is to leave,
a foreclosure,
I won’t pay-yay
I forgot to check the Census Bureau data yesterday. Total vacant housing units up by 1.05 million year-over-year.
Big gains in vacant seasonal (+403,000) and vacant “other” (+510,000). Ie. not for sale, not for rent, not a second home. Just there.
The fall in households is not yet observed, as occupied housing units were up 946,000. Rather, vacancy is associated with another big year of construction, with about 2 million added.
But once the foreclosures get rolling, people will be moving in with relatives.
“Just there.”
…people will be moving in with relatives.
Wouldn’t it be more likely that people will be moving into the rentals?
How stressful is it to swindle the masses?
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSL2982685920080129
SocGen suicides put stress at work under spotlight
Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:52pm EST
By Astrid Wendlandt
PARIS (Reuters) - Three employees at Societe Generale in Paris have committed suicide in as many years, unions said on Tuesday, as they raised concerns about the stressful work environment at the scandal-hit bank.
Societe Generale last week revealed that a rogue trader built up massive illicit positions at its Paris headquarters that cost the bank 4.9 billion euros to unwind.
Since the shock announcement, the bank’s working conditions have come under close scrutiny and union sources said three members of staff at SocGen’s investment arm had killed themselves since 2005.
“Stress at work is a top concern,” said Michel Marchet from the SocGen CGT union. “Expectations are high,” he added.
The most recent incident, confirmed by Societe Generale, involved a trader who threw himself off a highway bridge in June last year nearby the bank’s head office.
The man was in his 30s and a specialist in equity derivatives, like the rogue trader blamed for last week’s losses — Jerome Kerviel.
Union officials said the man killed himself just hours after he was reprimanded by management for losing 9-10 million euros ($13.31 million) in unspecified trades.
The June suicide is being investigated internally by the bank. “We did not talk about it at the time out of respect for his family and we are not making any comment about it now,” a SocGen spokeswoman said on Tuesday. Continued…
Sound familiar?
Leigh
Huh, I just pictured Wilford Brimley muttering “No one ever leaves the firm!”
In the late 80s-early 90s a guy at major bank in Boston commited suicide as well. If I remember correctly, he too was involved in some “unique” investment process at the time…I believe it was also at the begining of the end of the real estate “boom” and that was one of the banks that later failed.
Irish guy if I recall correctly.
The RE downturn has taken a toll on our office. Managing broker was just terminated (she was salaried), only have 1 part-time admin (used to have 2 full-time and an evening/week-end person), the only calls coming in are for rentals and most agents now have real jobs or are depending upon their spouses/significant others for income. Many complain that the MSM is the real cause of all the alarm. What do they not understand???
Step away from the ledge…
Note the use of the term “real jobs.”
Real jobs, indeed. One agent has started driving a bus for the local shool district. Another is working as a waitress. Still others are selling stuff on E-Bay and one even went into the mortgage banking business!!! But to a person, they all say the media is greatly responsible for the message of gloom and doom and that the gov’t should step in and help bail the industry out. It is a very sad (and quiet) environment here…some of our better agents are just stepping away.
I’m sure they were just hammering away at the irresponsible media during the bubble.
They were too busy making money during that time. The fun was never going to end, everyone wanted to buy a home here and the agents just loved all that the NAR was doing for them. Now the good times are gone and grim reality is setting in….and if course it is someone else’s fault.
It’s ALWAYS someone else’s fault!
Amen and amen!
“‘It’s not a good time,’ said Gilbreath, who presented a paper at the Western Economics Association’s international meeting in July titled ‘The Coming Perfect Economic Storm.’ ‘I’m normally a very optimistic person and, while I expected a serious economic challenge, this financial crisis has caused a financial decline earlier than I anticipated. I didn’t think it was likely to come until about 2010…The nation wasn’t prepared for it now.’”
__________________________________________________________
“Men have been swindled by other men on many occasions. The autumn of 1929 was, perhaps, the first occasion when men succeeded on a large scale in swindling themselves.”
John Kenneth Galbraith
“‘It’s not a good time,’ said Gilbreath, who presented a paper at the Western Economics Association’s international meeting in July titled ‘The Coming Perfect Economic Storm.’ ‘I’m normally a very optimistic person and, while I expected a serious economic challenge, this financial crisis has caused a financial decline earlier than I anticipated. I didn’t think it was likely to come until about 2010…The nation wasn’t prepared for it now.’”
__________________________________________________________
“Men have been swindled by other men on many occasions. The autumn of 1929 was, perhaps, the first occasion when men succeeded on a large scale in swindling themselves.”
John Kenneth Galbraith
What were we doing to prepare?
We expect this nation of good time grasshoppers to prepare when we’re always told the good times will never end if we just believe in the republican ideal of capitalism ? Thats Rich.
Way OT, but I was utterly alarmed to find out that the US only owns 262 million ounces of gold. At the current spot price of gold, this is less than $250 billion. That won’t even cover 6 months of interest on our national debt. That just goes to show that the US is bankrupt.
What about the land the U.S. gov’t owns? They are the biggest landholder by far.
And they aren’t making any more of it.
“What about the land the U.S. gov’t owns? They are the biggest landholder by far”
What about it? Do you propose that we sell the land of our nation, one parcel at a time, to pay our debts for our salad shooters, SUVs, and granite countertops? Doesn’t anyone care about the future generations? That is “THEIR LAND.” It isn’t “OURS.” Or am I totally insane for thinking that?
Think about the salad spinners for the children!!!
What about the children???
Umm, I didn’t say anything about selling it, anymore than selling gold; simply commenting on the fact that the U.S. is far from bankrupt.
Intereting question. The US is in debt — what is the collateral? If we default, can Saudi Arabia sieze the National Parks? Will China start shipping over 1.2 billion people to settle the Western states? Or do we end up like Argentina with a “devaluation?”
The debt will never get repaid.
The US hasn’t even paid up the debt incurred in WWII, and it never will.
No collateral; no skin in the game; what does that sound like?
Not gonna lose sleep over this one.
There never has been collateral. It’s backed only by the US Government, nothing more and nothing less.
China already has!
That just goes to show that the US is bankrupt.
Only true if gold is the only accepted form of payment. False otherwise.
And if gold became the only accepted form of payment, then the vault just became worth a heck of lot more than your $250B number.
So maybe gold will rise to $13,000/oz to bail out much of our debt.
“‘At the present time, there are not a lot of good options available to individuals to protect themselves from this decline,’ said Baylor University economics professor Kent Gilbreath, who was a member of the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas board of directors from 1979-1986.”
I’d imagine Mr. Gilbreath has more experience knowing about housing bubbles, than anybody else in the country…
Dallas from 1979 to 1986, was no pleasure cruise.
“More than 1 percent of all U.S. households were in some stage of foreclosure during 2007, up from 0.58 percent the year before.”
Is this right?!?!
Holy crap.
That is still an historically low number. In 80/81 the foreclosure rate was 2%+
The percent increase is huge.
what are the raw numbers ? i don’t think percentages matter as much as total comparisons.
And the reason it’s not higher already is that I’m sure the banks are running at full tilt filing notices (or choosing not to).
I know of one guy who lived in his house for MONTHS without payment before getting foreclosed…
The first time derivative on the level of foreclosures is also huge, with no sign of leveling off (at least that is the impression I take from a graph I made for San Diego foreclosures through December 2007).
OT: Ben can you get the total news artice on Mozilo: End Downpayment Requirement from the National Mortgage News, Monday, February 17, 2003. This article goes right to the heart of the housing bubble.
In the article he talks about:
1. lowering the bar on credit scores.
2. The only way we have a better society is to make sure those who don’t have a house have the opportunity to get one.
3. Labeled downpayments as ‘nonesense and credit scores too high’.
4. Wrong to focus on delinquencies.
5. Don’t worry about the 4% who lose their homes focus on the 96% who won’t let their home go into foreclosure.
6. That it would probably be his last policy address before retiring in 2006.
7. Take a chance on making mistakes and put minorities and other underserved families into homes of their own.
8. We’ve got to share, if we don’t, people will take it.
9. It is ‘meaningless’ to require targeted borrowers to come to the closing table with 10% of the purchase price in cash.
That’s a good one. Mozilo belongs in jail.
“The levels are a new kind of accounting parlance Wall Street instituted last year. The bigger the number, the harder it is to sell or value the securities in question. In other words, Morgan Stanley no longer knows how much these assets are worth because no one is buying.”
Call me funny, but if something has no known value how can you rightly call it an asset ?
The heisenberg principle of asset valuation
oh great, now my brain hurts just thinking about that…:-)
LOL! Now *that* was funny!
Because by and large they haven’t stopped paying, yet. The drop in price is based on expectations of how much P&I will decline in the near future for most of the securities.
For some reason my other comment didn’t post
The HBB Comment Eater strikes again. It is hungry. It must be fed.
“Countrywide Financial Corp, the largest U.S. mortgage lender, on Tuesday said more than one in three subprime mortgages were delinquent at year-end in the $1.48 billion portfolio of home loans it services.”
Over half a Billion Dollars worth of doodoo…
Yikes!
Those are loans that it services, not loans that it owns. So who owns them?
“Those are loans that it services, not loans that it owns. So who owns them?”
The secondary market?? Some lucky global securitization investment pool?
Calpers
Yep. Don’t even get me started on that rant!
RE: “Countrywide Financial Corp, the largest U.S. mortgage lender, on Tuesday said more than one in three subprime mortgages were delinquent at year-end in the $1.48 billion portfolio of home loans it services.”
Gotta be more than that…
The 60 Minutes show indicated current foreclosure loss in Stockton Springs, CA- ALONE! was $1.4 billion.
The MBS gangsters are hiding mind-boggling losses.
sub prime was less than 20% of market. Lots of losses in Alt-A and Prime that are still not being openly addressed in these articles.
It is not about the primeness of the loan, it is the LTV that is detemining the walk-away-ness.
Incidentally, the servicing arm of CFC is quite valuable. That’s a Buffett-like bet at the right price.
. ‘Housing values were going up, and there was a lot of money in the market, and people were getting very creative in how to offer financing to people with all levels of qualification.’”
Did he actually say this?
VALUES were GOING DOWN!
PRICES were GOING UP!
It’s like the old “Robert Hall” jingle
It’s like the old “Robert Hall” jingle
The value goes up, up, up
as the prices go down, down, down
Robert Hall is in season
to show you the reason
High quality
Economy
(You’re welcome)
Ode to Le Tan Orange…
mozilo angel, angelo mozilo
angleo mozilo, mozilo angel
You’re no angel to me
mozilo angelo, how I loathe him
How I frown a bit when he lies
Everytime he says he can’t loan
My heart is on standby
angelo mozilo how I want him to do time
He’s got nothing that I can’t resist
But if you’d like a subprime loan, he doesn’t exist…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FhOSmBunbQ&feature=related
Case-Shiller understates the problem. It only measures the resale of previously-owned homes. It does not take into account newly-built homes, or condos.
Both new construction and condos compete in the shelter market with existing/pre-owned homes. New homes are being given away right now, and there is a GLUT of condos.Including them in the price measurement would show a greater drop than Case-Shiller.
I seriously find it hard to believe that the linking of all kinds of financial instruments to MBSs was an accident. If people on this blog and elsewhere could see this years in advance surely something more nefarious is at work. Someone needs to burn for this.
Nominations, please…
Greenspan. Paulson. Raines at FNMA.
Mozillo and Toll.
Whatever accounting clown wrote the accounting practice that it was okay to book profit for full amort even if Joe6P only paid the neg-am
You’ll have a hard time getting the Italians to let Frater Luca Bartolomes Pacioli go, he’s been there much, much to long. Booking revenue at the time of the sale (even when payment was due in the future) is a pretty core principle of accounting.
What do you think the FED should do?
You can vote.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/22896161
I know what I think, but I believe that the Fed will probably be spineless and cut rates anyway. The only thing that has moved the market for the past two days has been the ‘hope’ of a rate cut. Pathetic.
I am prepared and make the most moneys from a half point cut. Is a half point cut correct? NO. IMHO, the only hope we have is that there was a dissenting vote for the emergency rate cut last week and maybe enough of the voting board members realize they were ’snookered’ by a rogue French trader.. “Curse the French, looks like we’re all going to the ball.”
At the current time the single biggest risk to the economy is inflation. Oil, gold, corn, beans, timber (not to confuse with lumber which is a manufactured product), ores, aluminum, coal reflect the upsurge in inflation.
The only industries that are under severe stress in the US are finance and housing. A further rate cut will not help .
Should the Federal Reserve cut the rates by a half point manana, there is a risk of dollar dumping. However, no matter what the Federal Reserve does, it will not be good for the dollar.
It’s done.
FBI investigating Mozillo.
14 companies plus those who went bankrupt as well as financial firms to look for fraud and insider trading.
Couldn’t happen to a nicer guy.
FBI to the rescue.
Seems we were wrong about no prosecutions.
Did anybody see that news blurb?
I’m getting giddy.
With all the lawsuits that are going to happen, there is an obvious investment opportunity:
Collateralized Lawsuit Obligations (TM by me!)
With all the lawsuits happening, there is an obvious investment opportunity:
Collateralized Lawsuit Obligations (CLO, TM by me:)
(Second try at posting - first vanished)