Wild Speculation Gone Sour In Florida
The News Press reports from Florida. “Nicole Rennie figures a college student could not have dreamed of owning a home in Cape Coral when she moved here two years ago. But she and boyfriend Steven Coburn are closing Monday on a three-bedroom, two-bath home in southwest Cape Coral. ‘My parents don’t even own a house, but look at me,’ Rennie said. ‘I’m 21 years old and buying a house. Nobody is helping us. We are doing this on our own. It means a great deal to me.’”
“Rennie works at Lowe’s, Coburn at BJ’s. Together, Rennie said they have a household income of about $54,000. Rennie is still working toward a bachelor’s degree in special education from Florida Gulf Coast University, providing added financial pressure.”
“The couple is buying their new home on Southwest 26th Street for $109,900. A recent city report said the median home value in that ZIP code is $323,520, much more than the couple could ever afford anytime in the near-future, Rennie said.”
“Now, she and Coburn will end up paying a monthly mortgage of about $1,200, the same as they pay in rent right now. ‘We will own something,’ she said, ‘for the same amount of money each month that we have been throwing down the drain.’”
“Lee County’s unemployment rate rose to 6.3 percent in January, the highest in 15 years. About 18,000 people were out of work in Lee County, according to data released Friday from the Florida Agency for Workforce Innovation.”
“A year ago, the jobless rate was 3.6 percent. The state also revised the jobless rate for December to 6 percent, up from the 5.7 percent originally reported. Nationally, job losses hit a five-year high, the starkest sign yet the country is heading dangerously toward recession or is in one already.”
“Karin Ortiz knows that firsthand. She lost her job as teacher’s aide when the preschool where she worked cut back on staffing as enrollment dropped. ‘A lot of parents couldn’t afford preschool because they were laid off or losing their jobs,’ said Ortiz, of Lehigh Acres. ‘Now even Wal-Mart, which always seems to be hiring, isn’t looking for anyone.’”
“Job seeker Jose Vega of Fort Myers Shores, said it’s remarkable how few jobs are available. Vega had been installing air conditioning units until the housing stall left him without work. On Friday, he applied to work in the kitchen of a local restaurant.”
“‘I’m trying to find anything I can right now and I don’t care if it is washing dishes,’ Vega said. ‘They keep saying it’s going to get better, but it’s not happening.’”
The St Petersburg Times. “Not only did the Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater area win the dubious distinction of being the biggest job loser in the state in January, with 11,700 fewer jobs than a year earlier, it also turns out that job growth stalled locally last spring and started eroding quickly in July, with the hemorrhaging continuing through the second half of the year.”
“In September, for example, the state announced the Tampa Bay area had created 13,400 new jobs while, in fact, it had lost 15,900 - a difference of 29,300 jobs.”
“‘I haven’t seen a job report this recessionary since the last recession,’ said economist Jared Bernstein.”
“Sean Snaith, economist at the University of Central Florida, called it ‘economic purgatory,’ but held out hope for recovery. ‘I’ll admit it’s a bit of a witches’ brew with high energy prices, a housing market recession and credit market turmoil, but if we can get to the second half of the year when the stimulus hits, we may be able to pull out,’ he said.”
“‘Otherwise,’ he added, ‘I’m getting fitted for a Goofy costume.’”
“Last year, when the state was boasting red-hot job growth in the Tampa area, Temple Terrace resident A. Colin Flood was frantically searching for work as a technical writer.”
“‘I’d never really had to hunt for a job before, but things just came to a halt,’ said Flood, who finally landed work. ‘The job came just in time to save my house. But most of the people I know who were looking for work still can’t find it.’”
The Herald Tribune. “Mary Helen Kress, administers the three state employment offices at Jobs Etc. in Bradenton, Sarasota and Venice. She says pickings are slim for those seeking work. ‘It is just so sad because we don’t have that much to offer them, so few companies are hiring right now,’ Kress said.”
“During February, she said, her three offices fielded 8,800 job seekers. ‘For that number of job seekers, we only have 93 jobs open right now,’ she said.”
“‘If we are looking at January, this is the height of our season; it is going to get worse when the season is over,’ said Nancy Engel, executive director of the Economic Development Council of Manatee County.”
“The worsening situation will prompt the Federal Reserve to make a deep cut in a key interest rate at its next meeting March 18, analysts predicted. ‘The problem with all these things is there is a lag from when the policy is decided to when it hits the economy,’ said Snaith. ‘We are really going to have to ride out the remainder of the first quarter and then the second quarter until the cavalry arrives.’”
The News Journal. “Flagler County, once the fastest-growing county in the nation, now has the unwelcome distinction of being the county with the highest jobless rate in the state. As the housing boom turned to bust, Flagler workers were hit hard.”
“For Palm Coast resident Dwight Henson, Friday’s dreary weather matched the employment situation. The journeyman carpenter and professional painter stopped at the One-Stop Career Center in Palm Coast to look for a job.”
“‘I’ve been running ads for two months, and the only people calling me are people asking if I am hiring,’ he said.”
“Henson said he lost his home to foreclosure and is hoping to find some kind of employment. ‘I’m just looking for anything now,’ he said.”
The Miami Herald. “Unemployment reached 4.2 percent in the region in January, up from 3.6 this time last year, according to state figures released Friday. Construction led the way, with nearly 13,000 jobs vanishing from Broward, Miami-Dade and Palm Beach counties between January 2007 and January 2008.”
“The regional problem is the real estate bubble. With empty houses and condos abundant, demand for construction workers has plummeted. Meanwhile, as homeowners find themselves with no more equity to borrow against they are cutting back spending. That, in turn, hurts demand for goods, and therefore employees, in other sectors.”
“‘Consumers have 14 percent of their income committed to debt service,’ said John M. Burford, an economist for the International Bank of Miami. ‘That means they have a big mountain of debt to carry. Anytime you savage the consumer’s ability to spend, it affects employment.’”
“Burford said it could be 2010 before the economy starts to grow again. ‘We are ground zero for the real estate bubble,’ he said. ‘It’s going to affect us more than the rest of the United States.’”
“Some South Florida homeowners are watching the worst of the downturn unfold in their backyards — much of it the result of wild speculation gone sour.”
“The homeowners on Alesio Avenue, in an upscale and otherwise stable Coral Gables neighborhood, have watched the madness play out at the house just off Le Jeune Road for three years now.”
“As investors repeatedly attempted to flip the four-bedroom home at 330 Alesio for profit, new renters came and went, filling the swales with cars and creating other annoyances — such as three foreclosures in as many years.”
“It starts in November 2003, when Marta Perez bought the home for $415,000. She resold it in December 2004 to Rafael Piedra for $550,000 — a 33 percent return, public records show.”
“Four months later, Piedra defaulted on his loan, but in December 2005, before an auction was set, he sold the property to Samuel Morejon for $850,000 — a 55 percent return. Eight months after that, Morejon defaulted. He also sold before the lender could take the home. In December 2006, Jose D. Martinez paid $1.2 million, a 41 percent return for Morejon. Before 2007 ended, Martinez also defaulted, public records show.”
“‘Cumulatively, you’re looking at some insane appreciation here,’ even by boom-era standards, said appraiser Chris Vlad, chief reviewer with Hollywood-based Alpha One Real Estate Services.”
“Yolanda Feanny, who lives several doors down, blames investors for driving up the price of 330 Alesio and other homes on the block — and, along with them, taxes and insurance for everyone. ‘Investors [in general] should not be allowed to buy single-family homes,’ Feanny, 70, said. ‘My grandchildren, who want to buy a home now, are not able.’”
“A week ago, analysts at Fitch Ratings said they expected the pool of loans containing the mortgage on 330 Alesio to lose about 30 percent of its current balance, or some $341 million.”
“Investors won’t get any sympathy from the home’s neighbors. ‘There was no checking of what was coming in to the lenders and what was going out to the investment firms,’ said James Stevenson, who rents a duplex near 330 Alesio.”
“Stevenson, a former mortgage broker, said he had to switch careers several months ago because business slowed to a crawl. He said he now works for a company processing foreclosures.”
“For every listed home sold in January in Miami-Dade County, lenders filed six foreclosure claims, according to statistics from the Florida Association of Realtors and the county clerk of court. In Broward, the ratio was one to four.”
The Palm Beach. “Back in 2003, when South Florida’s economy was booming, officials at a small West Virginia looked south and saw an opportunity for growth that was missing at home. That’s how Ameribank, an eight-branch savings and loan with locations in rural West Virginia and Ohio, came to open its ninth branch that year in Palm Beach Gardens.”
“The next year, the bank affiliated itself with a Boca Raton mortgage broker called Lending One, which was selling thousands of no-money-down one-year home mortgage and renovation loans designed for speculators who wanted to buy fixer-uppers and flip them for sale at a higher price.”
“Borrowers paid Lending One a high interest rate - 15 percent, plus three to five points at closing. Ameribank assumed the risk for an 8 percent cut of the interest, buying loans in Florida, Ohio, Louisiana and eight other states, said David Hartman, who took over as Ameribank’s president in October.”
“But the borrowers didn’t have to repay any of the money until after the houses they bought had been renovated and sold.”
“‘It was stupid beyond belief,’ Hartman said of Ameribank’s decision to buy the loans, which ranged from $35,000 to several hundred thousand dollars.”
“The privately owned bank’s year-end fourth-quarter results showed troubled loans account for $42 million, or almost 31 percent, of its $136 million assets. Just a year earlier the bank had only $800,000 in troubled loans, which banks strive to keep under 1 percent.”
“To survive, Ameribank must persuade most of the home flippers who took out the loans to pay them back. ‘The borrowers are kicking and screaming about their losses, but hopefully they will do the right thing,’ Hartman said.”
From TC Palm. “Despite sluggish home sales, Holiday Builders is bucking the trend of cutting back construction and plans to open two new large developments in Indian River and St. Lucie counties this spring.”
“‘I’ve already taken three deposits,’ said Donnie Bradberry, a new home sales consultant with Holiday Builders in Vero Beach. ‘We’ve priced the homes from $183,990 to $199,490. The prices are similar to what we were selling in 2003, but that’s why we’re selling them.’”
“‘We’ve been able to work with our trade partners, and lower our home prices,’ said Holiday VP Genelle Cooper. Across the Treasure Coast, land prices have dropped 40 percent to 60 percent, she said.”
“‘Market price is the determining factor when buying a home today,’ said Don Santos, past president of the Treasure Coast Builders Association. ‘If you’re selling homes in their price range, then there’s still a market out there. But if you’re pricing in the $300,000 to $500,000 range in a new subdivision, I would suggest a lobotomy.’”
“While it is a positive that some builders continue to sell lots in the current market conditions, Santos said these newer homes below $200,000 would put more pressure on existing home sales.”
“‘If you’re a buyer, a real buyer, then you can make the deal of century today with any builder,’ Santos said.”
Goofy just called, he is offended.
‘“Sean Snaith, economist at the University of Central Florida, called it ‘economic purgatory,’ but held out hope for recovery. ‘I’ll admit it’s a bit of a witches’ brew with high energy prices, a housing market recession and credit market turmoil, but if we can get to the second half of the year when the stimulus hits, we may be able to pull out,’ he said.”
I was surprised he even said if we can wait 4 more months we “may be able” to pull out. He is still wrong, but less wrong than usual.
Sean, you’ve been wearing a Goofy costume for several years now.
I’m not sure they’ll find a mask big enough for his swelled head.
OFM, I can’t breathe I’m laughing so hard. This guy can talk.
‘Now even Wal-Mart, which always seems to be hiring, isn’t looking for anyone.’…I’m trying to find anything I can right now and I don’t care if it is washing dishes’
I’ve mentioned to you guys before that one aspect of the Texas bust was regular people rushing into very menial jobs and it being widely understood that even those weren’t available. This 21 YO buyer is a good example of next years potential foreclosure. IMO, mobility will become very valuable and owning houses will not be a priority.
I’m not happy to say that I think we can expect similar employment problems in other bubble areas. The economy has to retool into something other than selling each other houses. I realy wish the media would start to focus on these challenges instead of this house price fiasco we see now.
You know, it’s the age of some of these people that blow my mind. I bought my first shack at 28 years old and did so only because it cost me less in PITI than it was to rent for the same digs, apples to apples. Four years later I was part of a massive corporate downsizing effort that forced me to go to NYC for work but I was one of the fortunate ones. I sold the place and broke even but this guy doesn’t like getting squeeze like that.
How are they paying $1,200 per month on a $109,900 house? With 30 year rates under 6% shouldn’t their monthly payment be about $700? Help me out, please.
FL taxes and insurance hopefully, so perhaps their monthly payment is full PITI. Still, another couple of hundred a month for a reasonable repair and maintenance fund may not be in their accounting. Hopefully they won’t max their credit card buying furnishings.
If they pay a down payment of 10-20k, then I’d say they might even be fine,a s gfar as finances go. (Anyone who can save that at 54k isn’t likely profligate, or has very good student loans )
Still, Ben is exactly correct about mobility. Who here graduated college and stayed in the same town? (Well, I actually did, even though I expected to have about a 99.9% probability of a move after.) I understand that there are massive numbers of disabled children moving into Florida to save the local housing market, so she shouldn’t have any trouble getting a local job.
My parents don’t even own a house, but look at me,’ Rennie said. ‘I’m 21 years old and buying a house. Nobody is helping us. We are doing this on our own. It means a great deal to me.’”
Did she just call her parents “losers”??
It just did not sound right. Am I wrong?
she’s probably had it with her parents after months of the same lecture.
“Look, Rennie, the housing market is crashing. Your down payment will evaporate within the next year or so. Please, we are begging you and we love you and care about your future… Do not buy a house!”
dumb old parents don’t know nothing..
When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished by how much he’d learned in seven years.
– Mark Twain.
Quote:
When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished by how much he’d learned in seven years.
– Mark Twain.
Today, you have to replace 14 with 21 and 21 with 28. The Millennials don’t believe adulthood starts until 26.
My parents don’t even own a house, but look at me,’ Rennie said.
Fast forward about ten months or so, when Rennie calls her parents to boo-hoo that the boyfriend dumped her and wants to sell his portion of the house. This, of course, requires her to buy him out - no can do - or sell her portion as well. “Mommy and Daddy (sob, gasp) we have to bring $30,000 dollars to the table to sell this house and that doesn’t even include realtor fees (sniffle) so I need to quit school and move into your basement and wait tables. Oh, and I need you to take out a HELOC or raid your retirement account so you can loan me the money I need to get out from under this horrible, horrible investment and extricate myself from this dull-eyed slug of an ex-boyfriend I’m trapped under the same roof with…Waaaaaaaaaaahhh!!!”
If a couple doesn’t have enough commitment to each other to actually get married before they purchase a house together, it does not bode well for their ability to hang on to a house for the long haul.
I didn’t see anything where it said that she was married or how the mortgage is set up but probably both have their names on the deed. He walks and she’s the bag holder. She works at Lowe’s which means that she may lose her job at some point and he at BJ’s which could also downsize. Since she is a student, does she have loans outstanding? How in the hell did they ever give these two neophytes a loan?
Add taxes, insurance, and HOA if any.
I thought it was a positive ‘affordability’ story. They earn about 54K and the house is 110K, income is half the price. Their mortgage payment is about 27 pct of household income. These numbers are reasonable.
On the other hand, like Ben says, mobility is important in a cratering economy with rising unemployment. Although they appear naive, I hope they make it. If they don’t, we’re all doomed.
I agree. If I see a house in an area I like that is 2x my income, I’m going to give it thought, despite this state’s miserable tax and insurance situation.
What’s the point of buying a point at 2X your income when prices are falling? I can find a “house” at 1.5X my income, if I wanted to. They didn’t read Page 2.
I wonder if they put anything down. They must have a high interest rate, so either their credit is poor or they had nothing to put down.
Could have gone FHA..low downpayment..low interest rate..
For crying out, these young people have paid 2 times income for a home, in an area that currently has a median house price 3 times what they paid. It may be a concern that she is 21 and maybe not that rooted in her relationship or location. But how can you not admire her discipline of buying a home at an affordable price? Should we only be applauding renters in America? If the country takes that attitude, as it may well, then the housing stock will decline, not just housing prices.
I graduated from college in the early 90’s in Western PA. The area was still adjusting to the collapse of the steel and mining industries. At that time you were competing against highly experienced people for very poorly paying entry level positions.
At the time even jobs in restaurants and retail were difficult to find in the area. Not a good thing at all, and it seems as though a lot of Florida is going through similar issues. I do remember at the time that PA’s biggest export was people. People packing up and leaving for greener territories-very similar to what is going on in Michigan right now.
RE: mobility will become very valuable
It’s the new living paradigm for the US thanks to the massive instability in the job market created by globalism.
One false or bad RE decision purchase today-and boom you’re wiped out.
So rent, invest well in readily liquid assets; let the landlord mow the lawn repair the roof, and replace dead boilers, which frees you up to do a lot of travel and recreation.
Overall-not a bad way to live.
Downside-not very conducive to the creation of families to raise the next generation of Ponzi scheme contributors.
“One false or bad RE decision purchase today-and boom you’re wiped out.”
That’s because the notion of a “starter home” has sunken below the expectations of so many. One used to start small and upgrade only AFTER reaching educational, career, financial, and personal goals. Now one is expected to buy IN ANTICIPATION of those things - as if they were all guaranteed by some hidden clause in the Constitution.
“One used to start small and upgrade only AFTER reaching educational, career, financial, and personal goals.”
Funny, I have reached those things and still can’t buy.
RE: One used to start small and upgrade only AFTER reaching educational, career, financial, and personal goals. Now one is expected to buy IN ANTICIPATION of those things
The iPod/Computer Game Gen are completely ignorant of historical contexts. According to a recent survey, 54% of HS grads failed a standardized college remedial entrance exam pertaining to knowledge of US history and government.
Maybe this upcoming Depression will impart some socio-economic realities. As the saying goes, those who are ignorant of history, are doomed to repeat it.
“are doomed to repeat it”
As are those familiar with history.
I completely agree about the value of personal mobility. If you don’t own a house in Ft. Myers, for example, it is a lot easier to move to a city, region, or country with better employment prospects or with less imminent sociocultural deterioration, or to be closer to family or just for a change of scenery.
Speaking of southwest Florida, I just got an update on a retired out-of-state relative who owns a house and a condo in Sarasota, in addition to a McMansion in a midwestern city. Three mortgages + property tax bills + insurance = worsening problem. The condo (3/2, golf course, near I-75) is up for sale and is not selling, which is not surprising since there probably are thousands of similiar units also on the block within a fifty-mile radius. I like this particular relative, and he did not brag about his seeming good fortune three years ago. It’s sad. I was not asked for my advice, however.
It is clear to me your relative was GREEDY. Three houses with 3 mortgages. Obviously, he was not “investing” his money in the places, he found the new modern miracle of borrowed money to remove houses from the market and sell them to someone else at a profit. Flip this house in real life. It hasn’t worked out. Sorry. Should have seen the reality that EVERYONE can’t be a landlord. Someone has to be the tenant. We’ve got lots and lots of absentee landlords here, all with caviar dreams. There were several movies about Greed is Good in the 80’s. I never bought into them. What were they? Glen Ross? Glenrary something?? What was the line? Coffee is for Closers. Wallstreet. Some take-over bandit movie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-AXTx4PcKI&feature=related
Alec Baldwin’s “coffee is for closers” speech from Glengary Glen Ross. [Warning: foul language and vile realtor attitudes]
Too many people like that..got someone I know in same situation..instead of short selling the McMansion that he owns to get out from it(already had HELCO it several times)…listed it $300K OVER WHAT HE OWES!!!(it isn’t worth it and there are 2 foreclosures in the community already!)..stuck with several mortgages….I just don’t get it..where does the greed and craziness end???
I realy wish the media would start to focus on these challenges instead of this house price fiasco we see now.
“The worsening situation will prompt the Federal Reserve to make a deep cut in a key interest rate at its next meeting March 18, analysts predicted.”
This is ALL the media focus on. Fed Funds and cheap money. All the economorons, like Snaith, and everyone in the White House believes that making money cheap, so we can start another round of speculation will save us all. Ben Benanke is an idiot. He is convinced the Great Depression was the result of fiscal policy that was not accommodating enough. He is already talking about lower the Fed Funds another 3/4 percent…..That’s 2% in less than 3 months, meanwhile they had at 1/4 pts over 2.5 years.
The problem with America is DEBT, not availability of credit and cheap money. American companies are insolvent, along with a large portion of “consumers”.
Destroying the value of our money will simple make ALL of US more indebted. With the current political climate of “government will solve problems by printing more money” and passing it around to their cronies, we are in for a difficult time. I don’t believe Bernanke will see the need to RAISE rates substantially to save our dollar before it is too late. Then we’ll have real economic problems.
RE: This 21 YO buyer is a good example of next years potential foreclosure
(snicker)
Yeah, a 21YO girlfriend-boyfriend “this is forever” purchase.
This has disaster written all over it.
The mortgage origination schmucks haven’t learned a thing.
Ben, your description on the scarcity of jobs after the last Texas housing bust describes the current Austin job market in a “healthy” economy…just imagine how bad things will get in Austin when the economy tanks…
It’s always been that way in central Texas, with the brief exception of the dotcom boom. I know one person here in AZ that was in Austin for that one. He applied at KFC for asst manager, I think. Was told that he was the only applicant that didn’t have a MBA.
Yeah, you mentioned that before and it struck a cord with me b/c I got my MBA from UT Austin, and had no luck finding anything….heck, I applied for positions as an assistant warehouse manager for Stubb’s BBQ Sauce, a sales job with Chem-Lawn, a marketing analyst job small local Credit Union, entry level positions with the City of Austin….you get the idea….anyways, I ended up working as a temp for about a year before giving up on Austin and moving up to D.C., and got a job 3 weeks after I arrived here….I’ll never consider living in Austin again b/c you can’t put a price on peace of mind that comes from living in an area with a pretty strong job market like D.C….
One of the curses of having an advanced degree is that whoever hires you for a low-level job knows that you’re going to leave as soon as you can. For burger-flippers, of course, it doesn’t much matter. It’s in the lower-mid level supervisory or management jobs, where there is not a wide ladder upward, that you’re shut out.
Isn’t there a way to hide it? I’ve wondered if I got in that position, I wouldn’t put my law degree on my resume. Maybe not even the BA for some things.
“‘Otherwise,’ he added, ‘I’m getting fitted for a Goofy costume.’”
This fool might as well get out the tape. I have half a dozen other articles with this guy making dumb remarks today. Why does this guy get press? Where is Fishkind and his goofy suit? And how in the heck can the state miss employment numbers like this?
“And how in the heck can the state miss employment numbers like this?”
Ben, you’d have to be here in Florida to really understand. Our gov Good Time Charlie Crist, he of the moist sympathetic brown eyes and eternal sunshine, just gave his “State of the Sate” address the other day. Completely unreal and mostly about blowing sunshine up everybody’s a$$. The most “substantive” part of his address was about how he is “an optimist, and optimists see opportunity”.
Put that in your wallets, everyone.
Palmetto- Come clean this coffee off my screen.
That speech will go down in history as one of the worst ever. Does our governor do anything other than date good-looking women? I’m not opposed to that, obviously, but he should go out with some perspective instead.
“Does our governor do anything other than date good-looking women?”
Women?
He better find a permanent woman soon if he expects to become VP.
Look at all of the morons that get a voice. I have Fux News on right now. Ben Stein continues to make a complete a$$ out of himself. I used to kind of like him. How do these fools get to speak? Don’t worry, I am not paying much attention to these buffoons. It is just on for the noise.
Weather Channel works better for that.
Until Heidi Cullen comes on.
I start my day with the Weather Channel. It’s a pleasure to see Heather Tesch in the morning.
and Alexandra Steele in the evening.
Yeah I kind of liked him too. But they get real successful, busy on the lecture circuit, this and that book or business venture, and they don’t have time - I’ll bet they’re not nearly in tune with any one of the FBB’ers reading this blog every day. They totally lose touch.
They lie.
“‘Consumers have 14 percent of their income committed to debt service,’ said John M. Burford, an economist for the International Bank of Miami. ‘That means they have a big mountain of debt to carry. Anytime you savage the consumer’s ability to spend, it affects employment.’”
Is this a typo? I had to read it 5 times. Maybe I’m reading it wrong but only having 14% of your income going towards principal and interest on your debt would mean you are fiscally extremely conservative. I would think the number would be closer to 50%, and that would be gross, although I carry no debt myself.
I think he probably means consumer debt - credit cards.
This is the shocker, IMO:
‘For every listed home sold in January in Miami-Dade County, lenders filed six foreclosure claims, according to statistics from the Florida Association of Realtors and the county clerk of court. In Broward, the ratio was one to four.’
Hmm.. That’s infinate inventory! Wow, condos in Miami for EVERYONE!
CC debt makes more sense. If he was excluding HELOCs that number should grow as that form of extension of credit is cut off. In the alternative, ppl could actually change their lifestyle and try to live within their means, but that attitude adjustment is still a few years off and the government is trying to fight it with everything they have.
My guess would be that the 14% is to CC debt service. I would doubt that car and home loans are included in that number, or, as you said, that would be extremly conservative!
My guess would be with CC, cars, and house, the average is probably around 25% now (remember, many people bought homes a long time ago). If only look at those that bought homes in the last few years, I would guess that 50% is probably pretty accurate.
I bet that amt is 14% considering min payments on the CC, not otherwise
CC debt is “only” in the 3-4 trillion range nationwide, so it’s definitely not that. That works out to $10k+/capita or $20k+/HH. Debt service on that would only be a couple/few percent of income.
In fact, he’s quoting the Fed’s “Debt Service Ratio” which is the ratio of CC payments, car payments, AND mortgages, to total disposable income, and that happens to be about 14.3%.
http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/housedebt/
If you include tenant rent (apartments, etc.), auto lease payments, homeowners insurance, and property taxes, the ratio is 19.3%. That’s called the “Financial Obligations Ratio”.
Do note that these averages reflect the average situation, not the median. The median will always be worse than the average in a case like this because a few people make outrageous amounts of money in todays US economy.
“Now, she and Coburn will end up paying a monthly mortgage of about $1,200, the same as they pay in rent right now. ‘We will own something,’ she said, ‘for the same amount of money each month that we have been throwing down the drain.’”
Man……. think about that statement. What will own what???? These visionless morons just signed away 30 years of their lives to be a bank slave. No mobility, no new adventures or new experience. They’re dog chained to a structure they can never move and can’t get out of it what they’ll have in it. I talked with my 80-something parents last nite. They parroted the Yun quote that they see people window shopping (potential buyers looking at house across the road for sale). If the PTB to save potential FB’ers from themselves, the housing stupidity could go on into eternity.
Here’s what is crystal clear to me. There is a cultural phenomenon at work where it is implicit or expressed that an individuals self worth is a function of “owning” a house. Calculating the true cost of your name on a deed is not part of that phenomenon.
errrrrrr… Edit: If the PTB don’t save potential FB’ers from themselves, the housing stupidity could go on into eternity.
Seem awfully cheap for 3/2 for $110K, if not in a hell hole of a neighborhood. Is this ‘00 prices? My god, the clods are asking 300 - 400K for a 70 year old 800 sq ft 2/1 around here. If this represents a truly typical home for Cape Coral FL, the folks holding on to the average 323K home are (fill in the blank). For $1000 P&I a month, not a bad deal if rentals are similar.
No, that’s not off the mark. Sure, it’s not a “gated” community and you won’t see new Beemers there, but it can be a starter ‘hood or, like my first house in the late ’60s, in a predominantly retired-folks neighborhood. $25K for a 3/2 on a large lot and a well-respected, if modest, neighborhood. I just hope the house they bought is concrete block.
A similar rental to a home like this in Cape Coral would be about $850 a month.
These visionless morons just signed away 30 years of their lives to be a bank slave. No mobility, no new adventures or new experience. They’re dog chained to a structure they can never move and can’t get out of it what they’ll have in it.
Ya got it nailed, Big E.
With all the travel and “things to do” info available via the internet combined cheap air fares, who in the world would want to tie themselves down with a monsterous illiquid target for the property tax man.
“Mobility”-The new paradigm.
The Who said it best back in the 70’s:
I’m goin’ home
And when I wanna go home
I’m goin’ mobile
Well, I’m gonna find a home
And we’ll see how it feels
Goin’ mobile
Keep me movin’
I can pull up by the curb
I can make it on the road
Goin’ mobile
I can stop in any street
And talk with people that we meet
Goin’ mobile
Keep me movin’
Out in the woods
Or in the city
It’s all the same to me
When I’m drivin’ free, the world’s my home
When I’m mobile
Hee, hoo!
beep beep!
Play the tape machine
Make the toast and tea
When I’m mobile
Well I can lay in bed
With only highway ahead
When I’m mobile
Keep me movin’
Keep me movin’
Over 50
Keep me groovin’
Just a hippie gypsy
Come on move now
Movin’
Keep me movin’, yeah
Keep me movin’, groovin’, groovin’, yeah
Movin’, Yeah
Mobile, mobile, mobile, mobile, …
I don’t care about pollution
I’m an air-conditioned gypsy
That’s my solution
Watch the police and the tax man miss me
I’m mobile
Oooooh, yeah, hee!
Mobile, mobile, mobile yeah
I think an RV would have been a better play in their case. At least they could pick up and leave and take their digs with them.
“These visionless morons just signed away 30 years of their lives to be a bank slave”
Wow…they buy at 2x yearly income, at payment that is equivalent to rent. Sure, rent could go down in the area, sure they might have *still* locked themselves into the neighborhood by being under water, etc. etc., but let’s be reasonable here…these people are hardly the poster children of FBs. 2x yearly income and rent equivalent is an amount that many of us are yearning for.
Sometimes, a young and ignorant couple will luck out, and through no fault of their own, make a good decision (or a good enough decision). I don’t see the need to rip them a new one for their seeming good luck.
Even though I’m relatively happy renting right now, I’d LOVE to find a 2x income, rent equivalent monthly property. I might even buy it.
I find most claims of rental rate - fixed PITI parity to be exaggerated. To alliterate further, I don’t believe that Rennie’s rent in Cape Coral is $1,200.
What could be more stable than a job at Lowe’s in this environment? And her husband, strike that, boyfriend works at another recession-proof retailer.
They pay the same as they would if renting. If in the future they can’t sell the house, hand the keys to the bank and foreclose. If the house goes up, pocket the profit!
Why is that not a good deal?
I would bet that at least 50% or more is going to debt service.JMO
“To survive, Ameribank must persuade most of the home flippers who took out the loans to pay them back. ‘The borrowers are kicking and screaming about their losses, but hopefully they will do the right thing,’ Hartman said.”
Bwaahaaahaaahha! They’ll walk.
… which is absolutely the right thing.
Yeah, it is. As numerous people have posted here, why shouldn’t J6P treat a mortgage contract as exactly that, a contract, where the bank gets the house if you walk. I was discussing this with my wife last night and we talked about all the bankruptcies corporations have gone through to rid themselves of retirement obligations, union contracts, debt, etc. Why should we treat a contract any differently than a business does? While I have never walked on a deal and have certainly felt an ethical responsibility to carry out my obligations, businesses never have. Let’s apply the same standards - it’s just business. If they don’t want us to walk, stop shipping jobs overseas. I’d go for that.
Yep- Ameribank wouldn’t hesitate a second if the shoe was on the other foot.
Banks are now relying on goodwill for their survival, just like that master banker Hank.
said Snaith. ‘We are really going to have to ride out the remainder of the first quarter and then the second quarter until the cavalry arrives.’
One of our best national parks has to be the Little Bighorn battlefield off 1-90 in eastern MT. They waited for the calvary there too - and standing on that very spooky hillside you can see even today where they were picked off one by one - both those that tried to run and those that stood pat.
I’ll paste this quote into my Outlook for September 30th. I’ve taken to doing that lately - pasting these fellas quotes into Outlook whenever they foolishly commit to a specific date or event.
Snaith is a complete waste of flesh. These are the things that burn my naked patootie. He is paid by the Florida taxpayer, that’s what makes it so galling. Policy makers in the state actually listen to what he says and act accordingly. So we’re paying this guy to hand our ass to us.
People like that first couple actually depend on people like Snaith for information. We should be thankful that we don’t look at our leadership so trustingly - still many, many people hang on every utterance of Snaith, Bernanke, the decider, and Yun.
This guy is like a cabin boy on the Titanic directing startled passengers back to their staterooms.
RE: Little Bighorn battlefield off 1-90 in eastern MT. They waited for the calvary there too - and standing on that very spooky hillside you can see even today where they were picked off one by one - both those that tried to run and those that stood pat.
Been there…tremendous spot-very sobering.
The sunken road at Antietam is like that as well.
They didn’t wait for the cavalry, they were the Cavalry.
“It starts in November 2003, when Marta Perez bought the home for $415,000. She resold it in December 2004 to Rafael Piedra for $550,000 — a 33 percent return, public records show.”
“Four months later, Piedra defaulted on his loan, but in December 2005, before an auction was set, he sold the property to Samuel Morejon for $850,000 — a 55 percent return. Eight months after that, Morejon defaulted. He also sold before the lender could take the home. In December 2006, Jose D. Martinez paid $1.2 million, a 41 percent return for Morejon. Before 2007 ended, Martinez also defaulted, public records show.”
These people are sure sharp investors…yep. Nothing funny here…just selling a house, during the CRASH, for 350k more than paid during the market PEAK. Nothing to investigate here…back to Valerie Plame.
RE: Coral Gables 330 Alesio story..
This is such a blatant (and trackable) mortgage/appraisal fraud scenario that Barney Fife could put them away! Where the heck is law enforcement?
“Where the heck is law enforcement?”
Off enjoying their cut of the transactions, that’s what. James Michener, in his excellent book “Caribbean”, foretold this sort of thing happening in Miami and Florida once turd world-style corruption gets hold of government. Oh yeah, I’m WAY out of line, right?
I have and keep a continuous file on fraud I find in my practice. What I do is notify the lenders that they have suspicious activity taking place. Up to them to take the lead.
“Up to them to take the lead.’
And therein lies the problem, dime. In many cases, the lenders are just as culpable in their own way. They figured they’d just sell these rotten loans up the line and that’s what they did, so they have no incentive to really care, now that the fraud is someone else’s problem. At least, that’s what I got out of the hearings on C-Span yesterday.
Here’s a good one for ya, dime. Scam operating in Hillsborough County.
http://tampa.craigslist.org/rfs/599456614.html
Yep Palmetto- Every time I hear the “Praise God” thing in business I feel for my wallet.
Are kidding me..the state of Florida was salivating at the HUGE increase in property taxes they were collecting.. and enjoying the pot of gold at the end of the investor rainbow!!..and you want them to call the police..who got the biggest raises in their budgets to arrest them???..come on..play some Miami Vice…learn what Florida is all about!
‘Investors [in general] should not be allowed to buy single-family homes,’ Feanny, 70, said. ‘My grandchildren, who want to buy a home now, are not able.’
Don’t worry, your grandchildren will not have any problem buying a home very soon.
“‘Market price is the determining factor when buying a home today,’ said Don Santos, past president of the Treasure Coast Builders Association. ‘If you’re selling homes in their price range, then there’s still a market out there. But if you’re pricing in the $300,000 to $500,000 range in a new subdivision, I would suggest a lobotomy.’”
Okay. I gotta relay this information. I attended college at East Tennessee State University and on the weekends, we used to head over to Asheville, NC, which is beautiful little city. My husband and I would love to relocate to this area…someday. So, this morning, while drinking my coffee, I decided to have a “look-see” on downtown Asheville condos.
Are they f**king kidding? “Luxury condos” from $ 300 K to $ 900 K? IN ASHEVILLE? WTF? What are these nuts smoking, and where can I get some? Apparently, whatever these developers are on allows you to live in Fairytale Land 24/7. These prices are Chicago prices!
Anyway. Good morning, everyone.
You have excellent taste. I spent a week defending depositions in Asheville several years ago, and spent much of my downtime fantasizing about relocating there. Love that town.
It is great place to live and raise kids. It is just starting to slow down here though. We are about 2 years behind florida. Houses in my hood that were going for 200,000 in 2004 are going around 490,000 now (2/08). Good houses sell in days. Houses 1 million and up sitting there. Inventory building. Specs in the mountains will languish until they sell for pennies on the dollar. Realtors here say they are waiting for florida to “come back” (oops!) I wouldn’t buy here for at least 3 years. Oh yea bring your own job like we did or you will pay wage premium to live here.
From a Zillow board posted by an “agent”.
“Another trick I’ve played when advising my clients who are writing offers is to low ball in a sneaky way. The way we do this is say a home is priced at $300,000 so we might negotiate a contract of $285,000. So the seller accepted the contract a little under what they were asking but is just relieved to get rid of it. What they might not realize is that offer is contingent on a home inspection. The same week we bring our inpector through who does a 4 hour inspection from top to bottom nitpicking everything. When we get the report back it might say we need $20,000 in fixes. You bet your ass we’re going back to the negotiating table to try and collect every penny of that $20,000 or we’ll simply walk away from the deal legally and get our earnest money returned.”
And RE agents wonder why people consider them crooks.
What, the buyer should eat the $20K? Remember, the seller can always say, “No.”
Hey! That sounds like a kick ass buyer’s agent to me. No more of this: ooooohhh, let’s don’t insult the sellllerrrrssss! stuff.
A kickass agent that thinks $15K off a $300K house is “low-balling”?! Sounds like just another NAR crap weasel to me.
Actually, that’s a good tact, particularly when dealing with large out of state lenders doing short sales or foreclosures. In fact, it’s the most responsible thing to do here in Florda. Mold and roof repair can be costly. Offer a lot less then negotiate down, however.
Lowballing to me is not $15k under asking.
Ditto. If I lowballed that place it would be at maybe $200K. Depends on where the asking price is now relative to comps and history.
“The same week we bring our inpector through who does a 4 hour inspection from top to bottom nitpicking everything. When we get the report back it might say we need $20,000 in fixes.”
If it’s an inspector bought (bribed) by the RE agent, and the fixes are bogus, then it IS dishonest.
RE: The same week we bring our inpector through who does a 4 hour inspection from top to bottom nitpicking everything. When we get the report back it might say we need $20,000 in fixes.
These RE azzholes want it both ways.
And when the appraiser comes along behind the home inspector and notes all the depreciation “nit-picks” in HIS report to the lender, the response is…
“WTF ARE YOU DOING! YOU CAN”T MENTION THIS STUFF! YOU’RE GONNA KILL MY DEAL!”
RE agents are all a bunch of duplicious pukes.
so, you collect every penny of the 20K .. and then what?
Your buyer spent $265K, instead of $285K, on a home that needs 20K in repairs.
Is your buyer going to do the work himself and.. maybe.. “save” a couple thou by humping his butt for $6 hr? Will your buyer blow that “extra” $20K on a car?
Bottom line is that the house is only worth $265K in it’s present condition.. and aside from the idiocy of buying in the deteriorating RE market, there was no moneymaking deal here.
.. and you get a commission on only 265 instead of 285 so you’re a loser too.
I have to disagree with you. This agent seems to be actually working in the buyer’s best interest and is negotiating the price down. The agent is obviously willing to give up the 3% of $20k ($600) to get the buyer the best deal possible. Whether it is a good idea to buy now is immaterial; the buyer IS buying. As long as the inspection isn’t bogus, why not use it as a negotiating tool? This is playing hardball, but the fact is, this is a business deal. I’d want that agent on my side. The agent will get LOTS of referrals from helping this buyer save $20k.
Granted this agent is trying to act in the buyer’s best interest.. however his technique is anything but clever or innovative, imo.
There is no negotiating involved in this exercise. Facts are facts. The house needs 20K of work and is therefore “worth” at least 20K less than asking.
In essense he’s providing a free home inspection and appraisal to the sellers (when they turn the $265K offer down).
IF he managed to convince the sellers that $20K of required work was MORE than his buyers planned on and then threatened to walk away, and the sellers are expected to offer $30K to complete the deal, i’d say he’s on the right track..
and statements like the following make me wonder who this agent thinks he is and what kinda fools he’s thinks he’s dealing with..
What they (sellers) might not realize is that offer is contingent on a home inspection.
Mark my words the new mantra (in the Great Mogambo style):
200 THOUSAND DOLLARS IS A LOT OF FREAKIN MONEY FOR A HOUSE
————————————
‘We’ve priced the homes from $183,990 to $199,490. The prices are similar to what we were selling in 2003, but that’s why we’re selling them.’”
I agree 100%. People used to ask me how on earth could I expect houses to get as cheap as I did. Well:
‘land prices have dropped 40 percent to 60 percent, she said….Santos said these newer homes below $200,000 would put more pressure on existing home sales.’
‘Palm Coast resident Dwight Henson…journeyman carpenter and professional painter..’I’ve been running ads for two months, and the only people calling me are people asking if I am hiring,’ Henson said he lost his home to foreclosure and is hoping to find some kind of employment. ‘I’m just looking for anything now,’ he said.’
Does anyone think this guy wouldn’t take $10/hour right now? Or even $7.50? Yes, even $100,000 is a lot of money, especially for a 21 YO.
I’m going to look today at two lots for sale in a small E. Utah town, one is $7,000 the other $7,600, each a half-acre, in town. FSBO, what similar lots were selling for in 2000. A few blocks away is the same thing, for sale by a realtor, 2 acres, for $160,000.
The “common” folk are displaying more common sense each day, at least those who want to sell. This town is in the middle of the oilpatch, but an otherwise dead economy (tourism only). Nothing and I mean nothing is selling.
What Ben and the people on his blog have forecast is happening very quickly.
“200 THOUSAND DOLLARS IS A LOT OF FREAKIN MONEY FOR A HOUSE”
Exactly
That area of Cape Coral is bubble central. That $109,900 house is probably worth closer to $75,000. And their problem is they are paying WAY too much for rent. You can rent a nice SFH in Cape Coral for $600-900. They would be better off renting and buying that house for under $80,000 in a year or so.
I was waiting for someone to say this. Cape Coral is Nowheresville, in terms of jobs or any kind of career. It’s a nice enough place if you are retired and just want to kick back and fish. Other than that, nothing much going on. And Del Prado has got to be one of the most interminably long roads I’ve ever been on.
“Now, she and Coburn will end up paying a monthly mortgage of about $1,200, the same as they pay in rent right now. ‘We will own something,’ she said, ‘for the same amount of money each month that we have been throwing down the drain.’”
As long as people like this couple hold on to the belief that rent is throwing money down the drain, this behavior will continue. They just don’t understand that a person doesn’t own a house until they paid off the mortgage. Pay rent or pay interest. What’s the difference?
stupid people still say that all the time. young=stupid
“The homeowners on Alesio Avenue, in an upscale and otherwise stable Coral Gables neighborhood, have watched the madness play out at the house just off Le Jeune Road for three years now.”
Ha ha! This is near an old rental my wife and I had in the Gables. I wouldn’t move back to South Florida for all the Stone Crabs in the ocean.
and this..
“Comment by palmetto
James Michener, in his excellent book “Caribbean”, foretold this sort of thing happening in Miami and Florida once turd world-style corruption gets hold of government. Oh yeah, I’m WAY out of line, right?
I have read “Caribbean”, but from my experiences in Florida, one really must read Carl Hiaasen’s books (which are quite entertaining I might add) to glimpse the dark truths (in between Hiaasen’s wit and zaniness)
that inhabit that place and lifestyle.
Bye for now, I’m off to the early-bird. Just kidding!
“To survive, Ameribank must persuade most of the home flippers who took out the loans to pay them back. ‘The borrowers are kicking and screaming about their losses, but hopefully they will do the right thing,’ Hartman said.”
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAaaaaaaaaaa…*gasp* cough…oh no…can’t breathe…collapsed my lungs laughing so hard…
I may have to file an Age sex discrimination claim against Fox News…Again they just don’t want us older guys who can actually think.
I wish i was a 23 year old airhead chicky poo…man all the job offers i would get!
Bahgdad Bob = Central Fl Sean
For Diogenes or other tax appraisal types:
A neighborhood of $500K-peak-average homes that have all been assessed for property tax at about $500K market value. Two, maybe three foreclosures, resulting in sales now of $300K each on average. When the most recent of those is assigned a value for property tax, will it be the sale price ($300K), the “when times were great” price ($500K) or somewhere in between. If in between, to which end will it skew? I’m referring to Florida but assume the issue applies pretty broadly. Thanks.
There’s a house I like for $325k
On the same street is a comparable home renting for $1,350/mo.
Hmmm…