Misjudging The Depths Of The Real Estate Bust
KMBC reports from Missouri. “Some local real estate agents are trying to turn foreclosures into someone’s windfall. The agents are taking prospective buyers on buses for what they call Equity Tours. KMBC’s Bev Chapman reported that there are plenty of for-sale signs in the metro area, and agents are willing to cut prices to move houses. ‘You can’t build this home for what you’re going to pay for it,’ real estate agent Mary Edwards said.”
“On a recent day, Edwards was showing prospective buyers about 20 houses. She said the homes would give the buyer between $10,000 and $50,000 in instant equity because of their low sale price.”
“One of the homes is in the Four Pillars subdivision in Blue Springs. The home is listed for $314,900. Agents said if you tried to build it, it would cost about $350,000. The house has been on the market for 221 days.”
“Agents said banks that hold the titles to houses such as this want to get them off the books. ‘So they drop the prices to get them out of their inventory so they can get good loans in hopes of recouping some of their losses there,’ Edwards said.”
The Post Dispatch from Missouri. “When Tina and Edward Aldrich bought their home in Dogtown 22 years ago, Edward was a union steelworker with a steady job.”
“But the loss of that job and other setbacks prompted the Aldriches to refinance their mortgage four times. Now, they are among the hundreds of St. Louis-area homeowners who are teetering on the brink of foreclosure.”
“New figures show that foreclosures jumped 52 percent in the city last year, to 2,593. They were up 32 percent in St. Louis County, to 3,760. It was the second consecutive year of double-digit increases in both areas, according to the Public Policy Research Center at the University of Missouri-St. Louis.”
“When the area last went through a real estate boom-and-bust cycle, property values topped out in 1987, with a bottom reached five years later in 1992, said Michael Duncan, information technology manager for the county’s planning department.”
“‘This time, the peak was in 2005, so do the math,’ Duncan said. ‘It will probably take until 2010 to bottom out.’”
“The Aldriches paid just $37,000 for their home on Glades Avenue 22 years ago. Their mortgage has ballooned to $164,000 after they refinanced four times in recent years. Various real estate websites estimated the house’s current value between $72,000 and $138,000.”
“Chris Krehmeyer, president of a nonprofit agency that provides counseling to borrowers, stressed that families need to have income to make payments on whatever payment plan can be worked out with a lender. His agency can find a solution for about a third of the people who call.”
“‘If you have a loss of income that’s not replaced, then there’s not a doggone thing we can do,’ he said.”
The Chicago Tribune from Illinois. “What this real estate market needs is a buyer of last resort, and until it went broke last month, Sirva Inc. thought it could fill the bill.”
“As housing sales ground to a halt last year, the Westmont-based parent of Allied Van Lines was busy buying unsold homes under agreements it made with its moving and relocation clients.”
“It owned 532 by the end of June, 799 by the end of September and, as of Jan. 11, Sirva had piled up 1,236 houses, with a monthly carrying cost of $3 million. Its Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing came Feb. 5.”
“‘I am excited by our prospects,’ Sirva CEO Robert Tieken told investors in the midst of the August credit crisis. ‘For now at least, the impact of the real estate market downturn on our North American businesses appears to be stabilizing.’”
“By November, Tieken admitted that conditions had gotten worse. Soaring inventories were putting ‘tremendous pressure’ on profit margins, he said, ‘both in terms of losses on the sale of these homes as well as the associated carrying costs.’”
“Still, he ‘remained optimistic,’ stating, ‘We have no plans to file for bankruptcy.’”
“Investors knew Sirva faced ‘a very, very risky situation,’ and Tieken was not alone in misjudging the depths of the residential real estate bust, said Glenn Tongue, general partner in T2 Partners LLC, a Sirva investor. ‘If they’d anticipated the downturn, they wouldn’t have carried so much inventory.’”
“The federal government…left unchanged the local benchmark for ‘jumbo’ mortgages of $417,000 or more, dashing the hopes of many who had anticipated a break on big loans.”
“Chicago’s median sales price wasn’t high enough to qualify: Illinois Association of Realtors data, for example, pegged it at $254,000 for 2007, and a 125 percent raise would bring it to $317,500. As such, the original $417,000 dividing line between conforming and jumbo loans remains intact.”
“‘I was hoping for a realistic view by the federal government that instead of county by county, they would go by market area,’ for the conforming loans, said builder Jay Lovett, who said he has struggled for eight months to sell a $798,000 rehabbed house in Deerfield.”
“Lovett said pushing some loans into conforming status rather than the jumbo category would have helped areas where upper-bracket homes dominate, such as on the North Shore. ‘For a $1 million house, that’s maybe $10,000 a year,’ he said.”
“Lovett is not the only one who is disappointed. ‘My phone was ringing,’ said Chicago broker Richard Biros. ‘People caught wind of that and said, ‘Isn’t this great?’ It’s unfortunate, because they sold it to everybody and this isn’t really going to help everybody.’”
The City Pulse from Michigan. “In front of the Ingham County courthouse on Kalamazoo Street in downtown Lansing, a small group of activists from Community Defense Against Poverty were gathered to speak out in favor of people who lost their homes as a result of foreclosure.”
“Inside the courthouse at the same time Ingham County sheriff’s deputies were auctioning off foreclosed homes. ‘We do this every Thursday, and have about 35 to 60 houses per week,’ said Deputy Sheriff Trenton A. Taylor. ‘Ten years ago we did two to three a week.’”
“The collapse of the housing bubble has cut deep into the economy of Michigan, much the same as in many other areas of the country. Massive jumps in foreclosures and dives in housing values are, and have been, affecting people and municipalities across the state since the bubble burst in 2006.”
“Barbara Sprague is living the nightmare. She had not one but two adjustable rate mortgages on her home. She said the mortgage company told her that she could avoid having to pay for private mortgage insurance — required if you have less than 20 percent equity in a house — if she took out two mortgages.”
“Sprague bought her home on Lansing’s west side in 2005, and just recently her rate skyrocketed. As a single mother, she said, she’s not able to pay the $112 that one of her mortgages went up, from $400 to $512— and all along she’d been struggling to pay the second mortgage, which was $148 per month.”
“‘They don’t tell you that you’re going to need extra income,’ said Sprague. ‘I was blindsided.’”
The Record Eagle from Michigan. “Mark and Sandy Piotrowski flipped through a binder of foreclosed home listings as they rode in a packed tour bus bound for another bank-owned property. The Traverse City couple were among 16 potential homebuyers who boarded Sherry White’s Repo Buyers Bus Tour on a recent Saturday.”
“In Grand Traverse County, the number of foreclosed properties skyrocketed from 179 in 2006 to 291 in 2007, about a 62 percent increase. Seventy-four properties are already listed in foreclosure for 2008, said Peggy Haines, county register of deeds.”
“‘It used to be the farm home and the low-income people that were in the foreclosures, and that’s no longer the case,’ Haines said.”
“White said the repo bus is a way to ‘bring affordability back to the market.’ But other area real estate agents question if efforts might be better spent helping homeowners avoid foreclosure in the first place.”
“‘We sold these homes to these people and I would love to see more members of the Traverse City Area Association of Realtors finding proactive ways of working with homeowners on the brink of being in trouble,’ said Cindy Anderson, an agent with another local Coldwell Banker office. ‘My hope is to see more of that and less of the carcass feeding.’”
“Nancy and Greg Stuck, of Traverse City, like most on the bus, weren’t overly concerned with how the houses got on the market. ‘They don’t own it, the bank owns it,’ Nancy said. ‘I don’t feel like I am picking over bones. They have gone on with their lives.’”
“Haines said fewer homeowners are working to recover their property during the foreclosure redemption period than in previous years.”
“‘Ten years ago they required a 20 percent down payment, so you would have some kind of investment in the property. But with some of these 100 percent or 110 or 120 percent loans you have nothing invested … so it would stand to reason that walking away from it would be a viable option,’ said Thomas Longanbach, Benzie County’s equalization director.”
“‘If I have 15 foreclosures and one is redeemed, it’s surprising,’ said Haines, of Grand Traverse County. ‘Maybe a third of them were redeemed before.’”
The Journal Sentinel from Wisconsin. “Wisconsin may be escaping the worst of the national housing meltdown, but that doesn’t mean the pain here is shared equally. The Metro MLS recently released its market quarterly report, which details local trends by ZIP code for the last quarter of 2007. Nearly every one saw a drop in prices, sales volume, or both.”
“ZIP codes 53066 and 53029 are both deep into three-car-garage territory, their rolling Kettle Moraine hills studded with new developments of higher-end, move-up houses. They may look the same, they may live the same, but they don’t sell the same.”
“ZIP code 53066, with an average home price of $446,000, saw prices rise 24% but the number of houses sold drop by nearly 19%. Sellers were able to get 94.1% of the average asking price.”
“Homeowners in 53029 endured the opposite: Prices dropped by 13.7%, to an average $440,800, but the number of sales rose by nearly 14%. Sellers reaped 96.7% of the average asking price.”
“In 2003 to 2005, the height of the housing boom, 53029 saw a rush of subdivision development with hundreds of families buying half-million-dollar houses. Now, the area is oversaturated with high-end clones.”
“‘It’s a hot area where prices are dropping,’ says broker Paul Liebe. ‘More people are buying, but the houses aren’t getting the prices that they were a couple of years ago.’”
“There are so many similar upper-end houses that sellers must trim their prices to win buyers.”
“‘It’s very frustrating for the homeowners who bought at the top and have to take a $75,000 hit,’ says Liebe. ‘They were caught in the short-term cycle. Now, those prices are coming more in line with their neighbors.’”
The Star Tribune from Minnesota. “The latest city assessments are bringing some unusual news to much of Minneapolis: Home values are dropping. Drops of $20,000 to $30,000 are not uncommon in middle-class areas of south Minneapolis, where just a few months ago the assessor was expecting values to remain stable.”
“Although assessor Patrick Todd last fall predicted falling values on the foreclosure-ravaged North Side, some homeowners also report lower assessments in places such as Longfellow, Standish-Ericsson, Kingfield and Fulton. Some have never seen a drop before.”
“‘It was a big surprise to me,’ said Bill Kahn of Prospect Park, who got news of his 10 percent assessment cut on Saturday. ‘Usually in this neighborhood it never goes down.’”
“Todd said appraisals are more difficult now, with some homes on the lakes still gaining value, while others see big drops.”
“‘You have to be in tune with more smaller pockets than we used to,’ he said. ‘We’ve had far more people calling saying, ‘You just can’t lower my value like that.’ There are people who think, ‘You’re stealing my equity. This is my retirement.’”
“Others see a cut in value as saying that they made a bad home-buying decision, but Todd said it merely reflects a different time in the market. Some worry because they’ll be unable to refinance out of an adjustable-rate mortgage. ‘They’re feeling pressured because of that,’ Todd said.”
“Although assessors usually throw out sales of foreclosed property for purposes of setting markets, in some hard-pressed areas foreclosed property virtually define the market, Todd said. Moreover, the presence of that cheaper property puts downward pressure on the market, along with an oversupply of homes for sale, he said.”
“‘I guess it’s something to do with the subprime mortgage crisis across the country,’ Kahn said. ‘I can’t figure out how that affects our neighborhood, but I guess it does.’”
From WCCO.com in Minnesota. “Many homeowners in Minneapolis were surprised to learn the assessed value of their homes has decreased. One homeowner bought a two-bedroom, two-bath house for $224,000 just two years ago. However, it was quite a shock when the assessment arrived — the home value for 2008 was nearly $30,000 less.”
“The letters are prompting some homeowners to worry that they’ve lost equity from their home. ‘Yeah I was surprised … I don’t know why it happened,’ George Saari, a homeowner.”
“Homeowners can’t celebrate the news either, it’s unclear if the dramatically lower assessed value will mean a lower tax bill next year. Homeowner Craig Cropper said he is expecting his tax bill to decrease. His one-bedroom home decreased $30,000 in value. If his taxes don’t go down, he said ‘I’ll be just a little upset.’”
“… His one-bedroom home decreased $30,000 in value. If his taxes don’t go down, he said ‘I’ll be just a little upset.’”
Well get ready to be upset. I’m sure the county will raise the millage rate to make sure your total tax bill stays the same or even goes up.
It is a rule of life - if house prices are rising, then your property tax is rising simply because the value of your house is rising. If house prices are falling, then your property tax stays the same, because, after all, the county has to meet its budget…
Which is why I love TABOR. In 10 years our property tax has only gone up about $150.
You’all need to adopt the Ohio model of local taxes… The millage is fixed and can’t be changed by politiions. It’s fixed for local property taxes, and it’s fixed for local school taxes. So when assessed values decline (mine did last year), so do your taxes (mine did last year). It’s automatic!
‘Well get ready to be upset.’
Yeah. Get ready to scream little a little French girl in a flower hat: ‘Mon dieu! Mon DIEUUUUUUUUU’! Like that.
I sure did, when I got mine.
Then, later, when I appealed, I explored many many thoughts and concepts. At one point I believe I channeled an ancient Sanskrit priestess, is how eloquent I got. (An angry priestess, not one of those peaceful kinds with bunnies and things.) Haven’t heard from the county yet, probably still working with an interpreter, but I’m not expecting much.
Sorry, didn’t make that clear.
‘I sure did, when I got mine.’
I mean, when I got my county tax assessment and it had shot through the roof, while my house goes on living in what certainly appears to be a declining and devaluing market.
I just don’t expect to see my taxes go down, nope.
O-gal,
You’re hilarious! And, I dare say, unappreciated on this blog. Please keep up your witty, entertaining, and, occasionally, even informative posts…
The city assessor says exactly that in this interview only a few days ago.
http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2008/03/10/property/
It’s simple. If property taxes don’t drop with house values, then house prices will just drop even more. And if they still don’t drop taxes, house prices will keep dropping.
Itll be the non bubble areas where property taxes could be the cheapest. That’s why im moving out of FL
“She said the homes would give the buyer between $10,000 and $50,000 in instant equity because of their low sale price.”
These realtwhores that use this line should be held accountable, and the fools that believe it will get what they deserve. The housing ATM is out of order, but there will always be plenty of suckers ready to jump.
Just tell the real estate agent to go ahead and buy and resell, and when done you’ll sign the necessary forms and split the instant equity with her for her troubles.
“…instant equity…”
Anyone who uses this line should be required to purchase the home from the buyer. If it’s such a great deal that there is instant equity, this should be no problem at all.
I can’t stand what the real estate industry has become. Too many 18,19,20 year olds right out of high school and community college combined with career changers looking for a quick buck have made the profession a bad word. Not all real estate agents were good before the boom, but the bad ones were weeded out. These days I think almost all are going to be weeded out.
“Instant equity” might be my most despised bubble term. There should be no equity at the time of purchase beyond the amount of the down payment. Unless someone will sell you their house at below the market price, there is no “instant equity”. If it truly is below market price, why wouldn’t someone else have purchased it before you?
There can be some small amount of skill involved in buying RE .. usually supplemented with heavy dosages of study and hard work .. that might allow the purchase of a bit of ‘instant’ equity.
In that case, the ’someone’ who would have purchased it before you is.. you.
that’s the line they used on my buddy when he purchased a house in phoenix last year (I tried to tell him not wait!)
The thing was on the mkt for $339k, he paid $319k and they told him he made $50k instantly in equity!!
I should add that he put $250k in CASH on the friggin’ place. All his money.
It’s a simple, cookie cutter corner lot home in a subdivision that probably isn’t worth $150k.
I almost cried when he told me
So…does the Chicago group ever do get togethers? I have a business trip the first week of April….hint, hint, hint.
Personally, I don’t plan on heading to Chicago any time soon, but Ben, do you think we could have some sort of thread for people who want to organize or attend local HBB get-togethers?
We haven’t (that I know of) but there’s always a first time …
“instant equity because of their low sale price. …listed for $314,900. Agents said if you tried to build it, it would cost about $350,000. The home has been on the market for 221 days.”
Instant equity? How about instant loss, because there is no market for this white elephant? AND you have to pay property taxes.
I love the “instant equity” argument the realtors are using now for homes selling below “market value”.
Instant equity, really?! OK, so that means the bank shouldn’t require me to put any money down then…right Mr. or Mrs Realtor?
Of course the building price is based upon inflated (bubble) costs of materials, labour, home builder profit, etc. More realistic building costs wouldn’t support the argument even if building cost had anything to do with selling price.
The building price is probably based on assumed inflated land prices, and also false assumptions about the materials and labor costs, which have been declining.
There was an auction on several lots in the exurbs of DC in Fairfax last week, and nobody wanted them at the reserve price so they weren’t sold. There’s no telling what they are actually “worth”.
Even if the building cost was accurate, if you built it you would get a new home as opposed to an older foreclosed home that’s been sitting vacant for a year and probably needs a ton of work.
Random thought: Granite makes for excellent headstones.
Also, if you built it yourself it probably wouldn’t be a square with four squares stacked on four squares inside. Bleah.
‘We’ve had far more people calling saying, ‘You just can’t lower my value like that.’ There are people who think, ‘You’re stealing my equity. This is my retirement.’”
Note: this is the **tax assessor** reducing their property taxes by reducing the tax valuation of their house.
How deeply do you have to be drinking the Kool-Aid to be complaining about a tax authority reducing the basis on which your tax payment is set?
Our house went down $10k last round. Even though we plan on selling this spring it still means lower taxes. Lower taxes makes our house more affordable. (Lower price makes it more affordable too). It’s a win for the buyer, and without a buyer I can’t sell at all. Besides, it’s nothing personal, it’s just business.
And, it could be a whole lot worse. In Lakewood, CO the cops burnt a landlord’s property to the ground trying to do a drug bust on the tenant. Insurance wouldn’t cover it, nor would the arsonists. Talk about screwed.
The house I’ve been renting in Boston for 2+ years went from a 2007 assessment of $690,500 to a 2008 assessment of $612,500.
Are you sure the landlord’s ARM wasn’t going to reset next month?
I think this is one of a couple of primary reasons fewer people in San Diego County are seeking reappraisals than did during the early 90’s downturn. Some want nothing that night show the value to be lower while trying to sell. Those planning to walk don’t care what the value is for tax purposes. A third reason might be higher values for HELOC’s, but that game is mostly over. Now if one just merely wants to live in their house more cheaply (imagine that), then lower appraised values are a very good thing.
The answer would be for that person to sell the house *now* before prices fall more. I begged my parents for a year to sell. They didn’t believe me.
“Sprague bought her home on Lansing’s west side in 2005, and just recently her rate skyrocketed. As a single mother, she said, she’s not able to pay the $112 that one of her mortgages went up, from $400 to $512— and all along she’d been struggling to pay the second mortgage, which was $148 per month.”
I remember those days living as one of three kids in a single parent household. My mom was smart enough to save for a downpayment and get a fixed rate mortgage, but we still struggled. There is NO WAY we could have done it at today’s prices, though (or at today’s rents either - high property costs do spill into rents). The point I’d like to keep pounding into the heads of our “leaders” is that there is no substitute for LOW PRICES. Single mom’s don’t need higher GSE loan limits, they need lower prices.
To me, this was the worst part…….
“‘They don’t tell you that you’re going to need extra income,’ said Sprague. ‘I was blindsided.’”
As a single mom, I understand the struggles. However - I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again - adjustable means can/will adjust. It’s not hard to understand.
Frankly, I consider myself to be even more diligent in regard to my financial decisions since becoming a single parent. Less inclined to make foolish decisions. My son has a roof over his head. So what if our name’s not on the deed.
eastcoaster-
More folks are going to be dealing with basics, like shelter, eating in, and just paying essential bills. You’re not alone there.
I am so effin sick of the ” I’m a single mom ” sob stories as an excuse for poor financial behavior. I was a ” single dad ” for awhile and I would never think of using that status as a catch-all for anything I didnt like.
It’s not enough that mothers get automatic custody, free state lawyers for child support cases, and mega-benefits for simply being a female … no, they have to carry it further with the ” I’M A SINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNGLE MOTHERRRRRRRRR ” screetch because it has always worked to get instant sympathy no matter what.
Now for all the x-chromos with fingers ready to pound the keys in vitriolic response, take this comment for WHOM it is intended. It’s obviously NOT directed at the many decent responsible mothers.
I do want to add one more thing: how many statements have you seen with ” I’m a single father and wah, wah wah .. . ” ?!
yeah, exactly.
(hell, most single fathers are effin happy as hell to even be awarded substantial time with their kids, much less have custody. they figure having a roof over their head, even a lowly rental, is ok because it’s WHAT YOU MAKE OUT OF THE RELATIONSHIP with yer kids thats most important, not tri-level ranch house in gated palookaville with the X-3 for status …. something most ex-wives dont get)
There’s a whole list of these catch-all sob stories;
I live on a fixed income (what if it happens to be 100k/year?)
Without our house, we’ll be out on the streets
I’m not going to give it away
The children, the children
We worked our whole lives for our Dream House (though we put 0% down)
Our equity, our retirement
I’m a woman and you’re not insulting me. When we went on strike in 1993, I knew a slew of single moms, dependent upon their jobs for medical insurance and what not, who WALKED on the picket line. They put their financial house in order and did what they had to do. Many of them had no idea if they would have a job to which they could return.
Of course, we all hated the airline so badly, we felt we had nothing to lose. But, when I hear some of these “single mom” boo hoo stories, I just think “oh, please”. There are TONS of single parents out there who are doing just fine, and they are not necessarily rolling in money.
Get back in the kitchen and make me a sandwich.
“Frankly, I consider myself to be even more diligent in regard to my financial decisions since becoming a single parent.”
Bad financial decisions by one or both parties usually lead to a divorce. When this is over we may just have all parties making more financially sound decision. I’ve seen a lot of marriages where the woman got a dose of financial reality when the divorce came. OTOH, my daughter is the one who manages the spending in her family as did my MIL in her’s.
Anyone watching Bear Stearns sink further? There’s gotta be some pain in that organization when the share price goes from $150 to $50.
I love Michigan stories almost as much as Florida stories. Michigan has an economic meltdown to blame more than any real estate bubble. That and stupid lending. This statement says it all:
“‘Ten years ago they required a 20 percent down payment, so you would have some kind of investment in the property. But with some of these 100 percent or 110 or 120 percent loans you have nothing invested …”
Now on the plus side, Metro Detroit, Lansing, and Grand Rapids all present an investment opportunity to those looking to put 20% down. I have a friend of mine who buys houses in Metro Detroit for cash and rents them out. Right now he’s got 4 properties with renters in all of them. The average price on these houses was $40,000 with very little work to be done. Each rents for around $600 monthly.
The only next question is what happens when rents start to drop?
I went to the University of Michigan during the 1970s. Hailing from the economically diversified state of Pennsylvania, I was amazed at how dependent upon/beholden to the auto industry Michigan was.
Mind you, this was during the Energy Crisis, and I was expecting that the brilliant automotive minds of Detroit would start producing fuel efficient cars. Boy, was I wrong.
After I left Michigan (due to the slumping economy) I thought, “Surely they’ll end their auto-addiction and diversify.” They still haven’t.
“Surely they’ll end their auto-addiction and diversify.”
Never in MI. The state is still owned to this day by labor unions. Why do you think they ended up with a very liberal Canadian governer? Not that there’s anything wrong with Canadians, I just don’t think that they need to be running US states.
I had to leave Michigan or I would have starved to death in the cold. In my business people have to be able to pay their bills or I don’t get paid. Florida may be having a hard time, but people are still paying thier bills for the time being.
As one who grew up and went to college in Michigan, I can tell you Michigan’s number one export for the past 25 years has been educated young people, just like many third world countries. Luckily I didn’t need a visa or a work permit to get out.
Not a very good plan for “turning things around”.
The rents are a ripoff in western Pennsylvania as well. I can buy for half the cost of renting. I have thought about buying several houses and letting the rent pay my mortgage 2x over.
are there really that many people make the income to buy these 200,000 and 300,000 and 400,000 dollar houses? Where are the 100,000 dollar homes? I must be so out of touch with incomes. I read average household income is 40 to 50,000 but these prices suggest a lot higher.
I could not get on a foreclosure bus - that is like gawking at an accident - and what if there is one nice house - do they then all outbid each other - that is so crazy or it seems so to me
affordability-
Then you have us prior homeowners who refuse to over pay for our next home. SFH’s we would consider looking at in So Ca, that are still $600K (2,400 sq ft-resale one-story in Ventura County), should be $320K. We’ll be renters, until prices reflect reality.
PSSSSSST: What do you think the purpose of the bus tour is?
==================================================
and what if there is one nice house - do they then all outbid each other -
“The collapse of the housing bubble has cut deep into the economy of Michigan, much the same as in many other areas of the country. Massive jumps in foreclosures and dives in housing values are, and have been, affecting people and municipalities across the state since the bubble burst in 2006.”
everywhere i look they are talking about housing “values” going down. in reality value is relative but the price is definitely going down.
value is not a price.
As prices fall, house values are going up.
It’s all contained, baby…goin’ 3rd World
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/content/south/epaper/2008/03/12/0312vouchers.html?cxtype=rss&cxsvc=7&cxcat=75
“Amanda Palmer, 23, waited in line for hours with her 3-month old daughter. Palmer is staying in a maternity home, from which she must move out by June.”
“That’s why I’m here. This is my first child,” Palmer said. “We really need it.”
…..this is too easy….. the boyfriend couldn’t afford a condom, but they can support a child????
No, my favorite was the bit about the woman with FIVE children. Yeah, maybe if you would buy some condoms and quit having children, you could afford housing! But then again, I guess you couldn’t get money from the gooberment to support your meth habit.
Why do stupid people have so many damn children?
I apologize, I’m feeling a bit mean today.
It has to be the jetlag! Hi fellow ‘93 participant.
How are things at AA (not to be confused with Alcoholics Anonymous, though easy to do)? I’ve not flown since Fall 2005 and since I’m permanently restricted, I don’t guess I ever will again. I hear merger talks are in the air (forgive the pun).
This is why I teach and practice abstinence. Condoms have an annual 30% failure rate, meaning 3 out of 10 women will get pregnant with consistant condom usage. Condoms break up to 15% of the time. And what’s more is condoms are almost useless against virual STDs as well as physical, psychological, emotional damage. There is no condom for broken hearts goes the saying. I learned this in school and on the internet. Very, very, few people have a true idea of how risky not abstaining really is. And the herd mentality refuses to acknowlege the risks of mating just as they went into denial about the house bubble. Everyday, I see people learn the hard way regarding real estate and failure to abstain.
There is no way your condom stats are accurate.
Kiss the welfare state goodbye….
Fast forward to some undisclosed time in the future…
“Stop yanking my chain grandpa. You really mean that there was a time when the government provided poor people with free food, clothing and housing?”
From the original post:
“‘We sold these homes to these people and I would love to see more members of the Traverse City Area Association of Realtors finding proactive ways of working with homeowners on the brink of being in trouble,’ said Cindy Anderson, an agent with another local Coldwell Banker office. ‘My hope is to see more of that and less of the carcass feeding.’”
Ummm, Cindy, you’re being awfully optimistic. But the comparison of real estate agents to carcass feeders is compelling.
Real estate in the Traverse City area has been unrealistically high for many years, this started before the housing bubble. The economy there is highly dependent on tourism fueled by cheap gas and retirees moving into the area and buying real estate. Supply of both these factors is plummeting.
While Ben was posting the link to Traverse City, I was enroute to a regional housing and planning conference in Traverse City. (For those who don’t know I live 25 miles west of Traverse in Leelanau County in a village with a median list price of $389,000 - and with $2,00,000 beach houses slamming into foreclosure in this county.)
One of the sessions was an review of the real estate market - presented by none other than the head of the realtors group known as TAAR. (I think I bit a hole in the side of my check trying to keep quiet.) That topic group was heavily attended by banker types.
Anyway, the realtors’ pet economist got up any claimed that incomes are rising. Then the head honcho realtor got up and presented the data for YTY median sales prices (ie: 2005, 2006, 2007 etc) and then presented 2/2007 median sales price and the 2/2008 median sales price. He wrapped up by saying that sales are off 43% BUT it is a great time to buy because interest rates are low.
Now came the time for questions. Not being shy and being right in front with my 115 lb Service Dog sprawled at my feet so I was hard to miss, I chuckled to myself and had some fun.
I started with the economist.
“You stated that incomes are rising. Are your numbers adjusted to for inflation based upon the CPI data?
I get a very pained look as he says “inflation-adjusted……oh……uh no they are not.”
Me: If the income numbers which you are relying are adjusted for inflation, does the data show that income is rising above the CPI rate, remaining flat or falling?
Him:….uh flat or falling - it depends. Sort of.
Me: Falling? By what %.
Him: Oh uh……. about 3% behind if inflation is included.
Me: So you told us that incomes are rising in the area but in fact they are not even keeping up with inflation so consumers have less DPI (aside to audience: “That means Disposable Personal Income”) ?
Him: well yes, that is true that incomes buy less now than they did 3 years ago because they are going up less than the rate of inflation.
(Chuckles in audience.)
Moving on the realtor:
Me: Now lets, pick on my county since we are the highest income of the 5 county area and that means $45,000 per household. I’m correct that your data showed the current median sales price in the 5 county area to be $159,000 right? BTW, median list price in my county is more like $389,000 – all those dratted 2nd home people so obviously rices are completely disconnected from incomes.
Him: Yes.
Me: If you can find more than 10-20 houses in my county at that price or less, I will happily buy everyone of them (Note to HBBers: I know all the listings in this county so it was no risk). Now at $159,000 that is roughly 3.75 times income even for my county and or Benzie County which has a median of $37,000 it is over 4 times income. Historically to be affordable the price:: income ratio should not be more than 2.8-3 times income. Given that the prices are not aligned with the price:income ratio, isn’t it correct that to return to historical norms, they have to fall more?
Him: Well ummmm…yes, that was the rule but if there is any more of a drop it won’t be much and we are still doing better than the rest of the US.
Me: Lets go back to that data. Taking the 2/07 to 2/08 median prices, my calculations show a 14% price drop. The Case-Schiller numbers just recently released showed a 10% decrease in prices nationwide - some areas were more, some were less. Since Case-Schiller is the gold standard for the Wall Street and the Mortgage Bankers Association, we can assume the data is valid. This area, by your data, has had a 14% YTY drop in prices - and you said that sales are off 43%. Case-Schiller showed around a 14% drop for many parts of CA which is one of the hardest hit areas in the US. How can we be better off than the rest of the US when we have had a price drop that is in line with CA and worse that the national rate?
Him: Well…..I don’t like to compare one month to another. The prices here are stable and should hold and even go up by the end of the year.
(Bankers in the audience snickering behind me.)
Me: One more question if that is okay. (Pause, he nods warily.) The funny money loans have gone south and the lending standards have returned to traditional criteria, and now in particular that Freddie/Fannies’ new guidelines required downpayment and larger down payments, and DTI (aside to audience ‘that means debt to income for the non-bankers here’) ratios are now being utilized, won’t that reduce the number of potential buyers - particularly in an area with incomes that fail to keep up with inflation - and thus depress prices further due to a lack of demand?
Him: I’d better let that go and hand the question over to some of our bankers who are here.
(Giggling behind me.)
More questions from audience and then in response to one, the realtor rep says “Well, the houses sold out of foreclosure or all these short sales do not reflect the market price and are what skewed the median price downwards.”
(Okay guys, I could NOT resist - just could not. It was too good to pass up. So on behalf of all of you, I piped up again.)
Me: Let me get this straight. You are saying that bank -owned houses sold to a willing buyer and short-sales sold by a willing seller to a willing buyer where the sellers just want to get it sold and not sit and wait for some mythical possible buyer to show up in 1, 2 or 3 years - and houses around here have routinely stayed on the market that long - are NOT the current market price because the seller wanted to sell at a price the buyer would pay - no matter what some fool had paid before?
Him:….. uh well, I mean those sales lowered the median price from the market price.
Me: Are we defining market price the same way? All the economics classes I took to get my fancy degree in economics defined ‘market price’ as the price a willing seller would take and a willing buyer would pay in an arm’s length transaction of an item, be it a house or a lawnmower. We ARE talking about the same definition aren’t we? I mean I don’t think my car dealer would really go for the idea of giving me what I paid for a car as a trade-in.
(Snorting and strangled laughter behind me)
Pet Economist jumps in: Oh …well yes, if you define the market price the way economists do, then I guess the market price would be whatever it actually sells for. I mean - you are right in the definition…..but ..um……
Realtor rep cuts him off: - I think we are out of time
They escape. The audience gets up and several bankers come up laughing and tell me that the whole thing was the funniest thing they had heard in years, was everything they had wanted to say to the realtors and how could I think so fast on the questioning. I just shrugged and said economics degree – law degree –litigator, its a walk in the park. The non-bankers (elected officials mostly) told me that the whole presentation was nothing but a rah-rah boost for the realtors and they had been disappointed as they had been expecting real data and information – but my relentless questioning and hard data made up for it and gave them the needed information. We then happily spent the lunch break with me expounding on what Case-Schiller is and what it means, and why the credit crunch will last longer than 2008 and laughed ourselves silly over the rah-rah ‘it’s a good time to buy’ nonsense.
What a pleasure to read your commentary. My sister owns a home in Empire, MI and we are constantly amazed at the assessments rising even though prices are not. The ignorance of the local real estate industry and is mind boggling to me in light of the imploding Michigan economy and the rapidly diminishing supply of SE Michigan weekenders able to afford an Up North Second home or retirement given the extreme dearth of employment opportunities in the area (outside of real estate). Thank you for adding some intelligence to the local debate. Given the dependence of the TC community on tourism I am very pessimistic on the short and medium term outlook for the economy there. I now live on the west coast - expensive but at least new jobs are being created and the rest of the western states are not saddled with supporting an urban economy like the one in SE Michigan. When I am next in Empire I hope to overhear your conversation in a cafe or the chocolate shop.
Gregwest
Tell your sister to come find me and say Hi. Easy enough to do - look for a 100lb woman accompanied by a 115 lb snow white, long haired dog with red backpacks (actually 2 of ”em - my helper and his uncle who also lives with us.) We live right in the village of Empire - about 4 blocks from the beach and the VIllage Inn.
Nice Job. Suffice it to say the cat is out of the bag in Traverse City. Btw, spent a week in Mackinaw city/island last summer, love the area.
Lol and the real estate agents and carcass feeders indeed…and I love the part of that story where the rebuttal to Cindy’s wish to see the better angels of her fellow agents was, hey, “the *bank* owns the house”!
That wasn’t the line they used to sucker all those folks into buying overpriced properties, was it now? They played up the need to, the value of, ‘owning’ your housing, no? That was part of the bubble, and now they’re feeding on the bones indeed, or trying to.
They didn’t talk much about how the bank really is your new master, and be aware of its terms when you sign the paperwork!
Not to eliminate the greed-factor for the mortgage-signers (if we got the MSM to adopt that term to replace “homeowners” I bet there’d be less sympathy for the idea of bailouts, the new feeling of inevitability for which is starting to really bug me indeed. Banks “taking” homes away from people, how awful! But the people never owned them in the first place and they seem quite willing to walk away from them as though they were just, well, investments, or really lottery tickets. They signed contracts and want to change the terms, they’re mortgage-signers. I guess we need ‘blackbox’ warnings on these things now. All in caps now: warning!: Read this document! The terms laid out here supercede all ‘assurances’ about refinancing and selling that your brokers may feed you!
And then the investment people who bought derivatives based on all this garbage need their own apparently as well, though they have a reasonable case against the ratings agencies it seems to me.
What a horrible mess.
Sorry to be OT, but the Bureau of Labor Statistics has released “rebenchmarked” data on payroll employment, replacing earlier data based on unemployment insurance tax returns through 2Q-2007. No BLS press release accompanied the updata.
In the OC, what had been a loss of 2,700 jobs in the year to November 2007 became a loss of 23,700 jobs once more information was available. Was there any press about the revised numbers anywhere? New York State Dept. of Labor issued revised data with an upward revision from NYC last week, but no one covered it.
“Homeowners can’t celebrate the news either, it’s unclear if the dramatically lower assessed value will mean a lower tax bill next year. Homeowner Craig Cropper said he is expecting his tax bill to decrease. His one-bedroom home decreased $30,000 in value. If his taxes don’t go down, he said ‘I’ll be just a little upset.’”
Aint’ gonna happen. I hear this around my block, too. The assessment on my own house went down 25K since last year. My taxes are about $15.00 more. Folks don’t understand that cities and towns can’t reduce their spending by similar increments. Do they think that the school teacher or the police officer are going to take a 30% pay cut? More likely scenario is that RE taxes INCREASE to cover the cost of gas for school buses and fire trucks, heating schools and making up for troubled homeowners who stop paying RE taxes.
“Folks don’t understand that cities and towns can’t reduce their spending by similar increments.”
This is not a true statement. I can tell you that almost every local government has more waste than they know what to do with. If you’re buying into the school teacher, police officer scare tactics, you’re going to be the one responsible for additional taxes.
At schools in Palm Beach County they put a copier in each hallway. God forbid anyone should have to walk to the general office which also has a copier, fax, and color copier. WASTEFUL! Palm Beach County Sheriff deputies get to drive their patrol cars for personal use for the cost of…get ready…$40 per month to cover the gas and wear and tear. WASTEFUL!
This is not just county or city specific. This goes on everywhere.
Palm Beach County Sheriff deputies are the laziest overpaid bunch of employees I have ever seen. I always loved watching my tax dollars at work every day when I would drive by Burger King in Wellington and see 3 to 4 sheriff cars parked together shooting the sh_t, meanwhile burglaries and such going on at a record pace. I knew it was time to gtf out of Dodge when the Sheriff bought a tank for his “command vehicle”. Last I heard they have had more huge pay increases and crime is at an all time high.
“Last I heard they have had more huge pay increases and crime is at an all time high.”
More pay increases yes…crime at an all time high? Questionable.
I don’t believe the crime rate has changed much, just isn’t covered up nearly as much as it used to be. How can you demand pay increases if there is no crime?
On the late news here in CA the legislature in Sac wants to get Indian Casino money legislated to support CA schools. For years here in CA the Dem’s have used schools as a way to win elections and if they can transfer the issue aside by having casino money prop things up it becomes a win-win for both parties.
I am hearing this in Pennsylvania. It will reduce property tax miliage/percent by around .5%. Pretty nice when 3% goes to 2.5% itll be cheaper than Florida which is raising the % as house prices plummt. Texas is already to 3.5%
Pronounced: HEY-SOOS (dilbert)
$417K would have bought you a Nice 5-10 year old SFH house in Greenwich CT back in 1999.. Why should anyone raise the limits today?
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As such, the original $417,000 dividing line between conforming and jumbo loans remains intact.”
Actually, a more correct pronunciation would be heh-SOOS.
And to think, all this time i thought it was GEEEEE-zus
The new realtoR line - watch for it : ” You can’t build this for what we’re selling it for.” Already starting to see this in Oregon. You’ll begin to be hearing it everywhere, mark my words.
My former landlady built the duplex that she and I lived in. So, don’t try the “you can’t build this” line on her.
You can’t build this for what we’re selling it for.
Almost… as if… houses depreciate in value over time.
“It’s going to take until 2010 to bottom out.”
It’s going to take longer than that, buddy.
” It’s going to take longer than that, buddy.”
If it weren’t for the credit crunch, I’d disagree with you. Since the mortgage mess is going to take DECADES to clean up, I’m going to go on record and agree…only this time though…
It could bottom out in 2010. I find that totally believable. Of course, if it does bottom out in 2010, there will be no increase in price for decades.
If it bottoms in 2010 and doesn’t increase then it’s still dropping in *real* dollars, not *nominal* dollars.
Check the CBOT Housing futures and see where the big money bets are for the upturn…
Hey, Barney Frank just offered to buy my house!!
Cramer to the FED: “who’s yer daddy Ben, you little b1tch-boy?”
“Haines said fewer homeowners are working to recover their property during the foreclosure redemption period than in previous years.”
“‘Ten years ago they required a 20 percent down payment, so you would have some kind of investment in the property. But with some of these 100 percent or 110 or 120 percent loans you have nothing invested … so it would stand to reason that walking away from it would be a viable option,’ said Thomas Longanbach, Benzie County’s equalization director.”
I’m starting to wonder if housing options will be drying up for these “walkers” he speaks of:
http://syracuse.craigslist.org/apa/605191481.html
In the above craigslist, the landlord is requiring a minimum FICO.
Property is also available for sale.
Think twice, Bad Andy before you say my statement is untrue. “This is not a true statement. I can tell you that almost every local government has more waste than they know what to do with. If you’re buying into the school teacher, police officer scare tactics, you’re going to be the one responsible for additional taxes.”
Let me clarify the statement about cities and towns being unable to reduce their budgets by similar increments - here in MA, teachers, police, firefighters and most municipal employees are unionized. That prevents cost cutting without union approval. Added to that is gasoline at 3.20/gallon and diesel at close to $4.00. Throw in under and unfunded educational, environmental and other mandates, and there is very little wiggle room.
Don’t say that I am falling for any “scare tactics.” I am a municipal official and am not unfamiliar with the city budget. We are locked into contracts and state-imposed programs without funding. Fees from development have fallen down to almost nothing. Taxes on personal goods such as boats and cars are also falling. Not everyone lives in CA or FL.
I sense a revolution brewing in Massachusetts, with a lot intransigence (sp?) on all sides. I’ll repeat a prediction I made a year ago: people laugh at FL, but CA and MA will both be hurt more than FL when this thing is over.
Either a revolution or municipal bankruptcies.
I live in Boston but am planning my escape at the moment. I’m so tired of the ridiculous health insurance and housing costs.
A lot of local realtors claim that the city has not been effected by the bubble (and I’ve been told it wasn’t effected in the early 90s). I don’t know why it has escaped what’s happening to everyone else, but I do know that housing costs need to come down.
On the way up, the arguments were spurious but at least they were consistent and were arguable. For example, real estate prices historically did go up. They are not really making new land. Of course, we know these arguments were a “tad” overextended.
But, on the way down, we don’t hear any arguments or justifications. All we hear is “waaah! my house is worth less!” or, “waah! My hedge fund is leverage 100 times with MBS’s!” “Make it stop! Make prices go back up!”
Mortimer Duke, baby, Mortimer Duke.
My money is on municipal bankruptcies. Specific areas of MA have been hit harder by the foreclosure tidal wave, but other areas are experiencing a slow drip of housing price declines. Once we get past the subprime mess, we have the prime mess at the top of the next hill. Oil prices and job losses are going to push prime mortgage holders into foreclosure. I just called for 100 gallons of home heating oil which is going to cost me $350. Can’t wait to get my hands on my $600 government check so that I can blow it all on paying my oil guy. My oil guy, by the way, is hanging on by his fingernails. People are not paying him. And so down go the dominoes……