March 17, 2008

A Boom The Likes Of What We Haven’t Seen Before

The Seattle PI reports from Washington. “Karen Waters thought she got a good deal last March when she paid $425,000 for a new house in the SouthRidge at Silver Creek development near Puyallup. After all, the price was about $100,000 less than buyers had paid builder Centex Homes for similar houses on the block the previous fall. By February, however, neighboring homes were selling for about $350,000.”

“‘I totally wished I would have waited,’ Waters said.”

“The local market has slowed and builders are taking dramatic steps to clear out housing inventory in suburban areas. ‘The reality is, our real estate market is in the tank,’ said Don Dutton, managing broker of Windermere Real Estate’s Puyallup Office.”

“Vincent Healy, owner of Clearpoint Appraisal in Seattle, said he started to notice trouble signs, such as longer market times and some price drops, in summer 2006. ‘That really began on the periphery of the market, the further you get from Seattle and Bellevue,’ he said. ‘By this (past) summer, to a large degree, I think we saw the crest of value.’”

“‘That (easy) financing has gone away concurrently with a lot of supply going on the market,’ Healy said.”

“Elaine Nordgaard bought her SouthRidge house for $350,000 last month, benefiting from a weekend Centex promotion. ‘The one I bought was listed for $510,000 back in September of ‘06,’ she said. ‘They actually sold it twice (before), but the buyers couldn’t complete their financing for some reason.’”

“Now she lives next to Waters and Marschell Lockwood, who paid $464,000 for her house in January 2007. ‘It’s frustrating because when we moved in they had dropped the prices,’ Lockwood said. ‘We thought we got a deal, but now there’s people coming in paying almost $100,000 less.’”

“Not far from SouthRidge, in Bonney Lake, Quadrant is offering $45,000 bonuses in a development whose prices start at $261,000. Deals like these are also in many other Seattle-area communities, including Bothell, Marysville, Lake Stevens and Stanwood.”

“‘It’s astounding the incentives that the builders are offering,’ Dutton said. ‘They have no choice. They’ve got to get these homes sold.’”

“But incentives and steep discounts make it hard for those trying to sell existing homes, Dutton said. Philip Eder of Puyallup said he hasn’t drawn much interest in his house since putting it on the market in September.”

“Eder mortgaged his house to fund construction of the retirement home he’s building. He had planned to pay for the new home with the sale of his current one, but said he instead might be forced to rent the old one out.”

“‘The market’s just saturated with houses,’ he said. ‘I blame these cracker-box housing projects.’”

The News Tribune from Washington. “The ultra-luxe Tacoma condo scene looks like this: multiple master bedrooms, dens, wine rooms, balconies bigger than your first apartment and ceilings that stretch 10 feet tall and beyond. Interested? Today, you have options in Tacoma’s $1 million condo club.”

“A handful of such properties are priced at $999,000 and up in the city’s core, where the condo market continues to find its footing amid now-sluggish prices and sales, a soured stock market and tightened lending standards.”

“But what about ultra-high-end condos in a city not typically associated with such luxury? And where the housing market’s impact has turned some condominium projects to apartments and slowed construction on others?”

“Developer Bruce Steel plans to finish construction in July of Stadium 302, a five-unit building. Four condos remain at $1.15 million to $1.25 million, though Steel says he’ll likely buy one himself. ‘There’s lots of people out there with lots of money. Whether they can be persuaded to buy something in spite of this economy is something we’ll find out,’ he said.”

“Downtown Tacoma projects in the $1 million-plus category compete with nearby locations, such as Gig Harbor and Gravelly Lake, said J.J. McCament, a city consultant who was instrumental in getting condominium developers interested in downtown. ‘I think that that market niche is not very deep, but I think it’s there,’ said McCament.”

“Construction on downtown Tacoma’s first condos started eight years ago. An analysis conducted last year said that since 2004 nearly 400 had sold. Today, more than 350 are for sale downtown, according to condo consultant Raelene Rogers.”

“Tacoma’s core still requires a buyer willing to be an urban pioneer, McCament said.”

“‘The more condos there are downtown and the more that are in that mid- and upper-mid price range, that makes the million-dollar condo not such a far stretch,’ she said.”

“Though downtown Tacoma’s lack of retail and activities, such as a multiplex theater, can make it a tough sell to luxury clients, The Ansonia partner John Gibson. said some buyers will demand penthouse living.”

“The Roberson (is) less than a block from City Hall. Such a condo will go to the smart investor who understands the value of buying in an urban setting that’s being transformed, said developer Blaine Johnson. He was confident enough in the unit’s appeal to raise the price from $899,000 to $999,000.”

“‘We’ve adjusted a number upward to fit what we think is eventually the market value,’ he said, standing in the kitchen of the 2,200-square-foot condo. ‘This will be worth $1.5 million. Will it be three years, four years? I don’t know. It’s inevitable.’”

The Herald from Washington. “Drive through newer residential areas in Marysville and witness what happens when buyers stop buying houses and developers keep developing. Empty lots line roads and the edges of cul-de-sacs. Many have sidewalks, utilities and roads, but no houses.”

“The supply of buildable lots and new homes ready to be sold in Snohomish County has ballooned to nearly a three-year supply, according to New Home Trends, a real estate research and consulting firm.”

“That means headaches for developers who bought land at sky-high prices a few years ago and now can’t sell it. It means builders are applying the brakes on new-home construction and off-loading what they’ve already built.”

“The building pace has slowed down at Alpine Ridge, a development in Marysville with 36 homes planned. During the height of the housing boom, the builder of this subdivision built homes ‘as fast as we could humanly go,’ said Clint Schlotfeldt, a real estate agent specializing in marketing new-construction developments.”

“He remembers a 52-acre subdivision selling out in six weeks. Now, the builder he represents has scaled down production to meet ‘a normal market,’ and about three homes sell here a month.”

“Developers who purchased all the lots they could grab a few years ago are in trouble right now, said Mike Pattison, government affairs manager for the Master Builders Association. Some are weathering it by sitting on the land, and others are having fire sales, he said.”

“The developers in a pickle got caught up in bidding wars that artificially forced the price of buildable land up a few years ago, said John Wahl, who works with builders and developers at Pacific Northwest Title.”

“It takes one to two years to develop a piece of land, so many are now sitting on finished lots, not able to sell to builders. He said the price of lots dropped 25 percent in Everett and southward, and more than 30 percent north of Everett.”

“‘It’s been tough,’ said Scott Morris, president of Legacy Homes Northwest, a builder based in Lake Stevens. ‘We’ve had to lay off quite a few people.’”

“Morris said he believes this is a return to a normal market, not a downturn, and he expects the market to pick up in the next several months. The national media may be playing a doom-and-gloom song, but the local housing market looks good for the foreseeable future, Morris said.”

“In the meantime, his company is cautiously moving forward on several developments. ‘The trend looks like the market is coming back,’ he said. ‘Everyone slowed production to almost nothing. We’re going to create a shortage if we’re not careful.’”

The Register Guard from Oregon. “The foreclosure situation in Lane County, as in many other parts of the country, continues to climb. Lane County had 143 foreclosures in February, up 63 percent from February 2007, according to RealtyTrac. There were 125 foreclosures in Lane County in January.”

“The entire state of Oregon had 1,584 foreclosures in February, up 118 percent from February 2007, Realty­Trac data showed.”

“Tim Duy, an economist and author of the University of Oregon’s Index of Economic Indicators, said he thinks overvaluation in the local housing market has contributed to rising foreclosures.”

“‘This wasn’t the craziest market in terms of exotic mortgage financing, but at the peak of the bubble (12 to 18 months ago) people were paying more for homes than they could afford,’ he said.”

“‘That was partly due to weaker underwriting conditions and partly due to expectations that home prices would keep rising, and that would allow the purchaser to basically borrow against that house in the future to sustain their payments,’ Duy said.”

“Home appreciation is flattening out and lending requirements have tightened up. ‘So I think there are a lot of marginal buyers who are in tight circumstances,’ he said.”

The News Review from Oregon. “According to RealtyTrac, foreclosures increased by 51 percent in Douglas County from 2006 to 2007. Locally, (auction) ‘crier’ Dave Leander figures foreclosure rates have increased four-fold since the beginning of 2008.”

“But realistically, the retired real-estate agent is seeing fewer investors — an ironic twist — playing the foreclosure game. ‘(With) so many of these properties, there’s more owed against them than they’re actually worth,’ Leander said.”

“More often than not, no one shows up for auction.”

“‘I think a lot of it has to do with market values being down, and a lot of these people are sitting on their hands,’ said Leander, who auctions homes for Credit Services of Oregon in Roseburg.”

“With foreclosures piling up, Leander expects to auction more homes listed with opening bids set higher than their actual worth. ‘I don’t think it’s hit real hard yet,’ Leander said. ‘I think it’s just getting to us.’”

The Idaho Statesman. “Commercial construction, the lifeline that has kept Boise-area building activity afloat during an almost two-year slump in housing, is showing signs of slowing.”

“Nowhere is the weakness more evident than in Downtown Boise, which last year was awash with plans for combining affordable and high-end condominiums with office and retail development. Today, Downtown developers are facing an economy apparently in recession.”

“The proposed Boise Place, which was to have replaced the ill-fated Boise Tower, is in Bankruptcy Court. Developer Gary Rogers says he still intends to build a residential, retail and office building there, but it will be much smaller than the 31-story hotel/condo project he announced in 2006.”

“Meanwhile, developer Gary Christensen’s $2.5 million revitalization of the Gem Noble Building is also in bankruptcy court, and construction has stopped. Christensen planned ground-floor shops and second-floor condos.”

“Developer David Southers has yet to turn the first spade of ground for The Metropolitan, a block-long condo and retail project on Downtown’s west edge that Southers announced in 2005. ‘A lot of these projects have stopped in their tracks,’ said Jenifer Gilliland of the Boise Office of Planning and Development Services.”

“Developer Bob Hosac’s upscale Royal Plaza condo project is nearing completion. His brother, Steve Hosac, is completing the Cityside Lofts. Bill Clark has started building The Jefferson condo project.”

“The Hosacs, Kimball and Clark acknowledge, however, that their projects are going up at a time when the slump in residential housing has bled into the Downtown condo market. ‘The market is flat right now,’ said Clark, whose 23 reservations have shrunk to 16.”

“Bob Hosac said that until recently he had not sold a unit at the Royal Plaza since July. Getting the project financed today would be difficult, he adds. ‘I had to have 30 percent of my units presold (to get a loan),’ he said. ‘Now you probably have to have 50 percent or more.’”

“Standing in the shadow of a half-finished building at Tamarack Resort’s Village Plaza, Jean-Pierre Boespflug shows no sign he’s ready to give up on the resort that has consumed a great deal of his fortune.”

“Tamarack is at a crossroads as real as that of the luxury ski and golf resort, where construction has slowed to a crawl.”

“His company, which holds a majority stake in Tamarack, is now in bankruptcy. He is searching for more money to continue construction and pay what he owes on a $250 million loan from Credit Suisse Bank.”

“Just a year ago, there was no stopping Tamarack. For three years, every real estate offering sold out. In 2006, Tamarack landed the $250 million loan from Credit Suisse to start its next big phase of construction on the village - a plaza of shops, restaurants, clubs and upscale condominiums.”

“‘We’re in the midst of arguably the worst credit crunch in a generation,’ said Alan Shealy, a financial manager and Boise City Council member. ‘The markets have essentially shut down.’”

“Shealy, who worked on Wall Street for more than a decade, was an early critic of Tamarack. In a 2001 commentary in the Idaho Statesman, he called the proposal ‘a pig in a poke that has a high probability of spectacular failure.’”

“Seven years later, his rhetoric has softened. But Shealy said he stands by his earlier concerns. He attributes much of Tamarack’s success to timing. ‘They were able to ride the crests of a real estate boom the likes of what we haven’t seen before,’ he said.”

“Shealy is quick to add that he doesn’t want Tamarack to fail. But he dismisses Boespflug’s claims that the bankruptcy will have no impact. ‘If people think bankruptcy is not a big deal, they don’t understand the context of what is going on in the credit markets,’ he said. ‘We’re in a slow-motion train wreck, and there is no way to determine how this will end.’”

The Billings Gazette from Montana. “Construction on the four-story Big Horn Resort Water Park on the West End of Billings is drawing skilled construction workers from other Montana cities and other states as building in those areas slows.”

“Job superintendent Bill Brandon with Brandon-Legg Construction in Butte said construction in Billings is healthier than other parts of Montana, and the laborers tell the tale.”

“‘We’re seeing it in our crews. Part of our concrete crew is from Bozeman. Part of drywall crew is from Oregon. And some carpenters and electricians have called in from Bozeman looking for work,’ Brandon said.”

“When he needed a carpenter subcontractor, Brandon hired John Kemmick of Kemmick Construction in Billings. The two had worked together in Butte two decades ago. Ninety percent of his work has come from building houses, the builder said, but that work all but stopped this year, so he gladly hired on.”

“But there was one problem: Nonunion skilled carpenters were hard to find in the Billings area, he said. So on a lark, he called Larry Cullen, a friend and former business partner in Stillwater, Minn., northeast of the Twin Cities.”

“‘In a minute, no, make that 30 seconds, he said, ‘Yeah. I can come out and help,’ he said. Then Cullen called back and asked if his brother, Ed, and their friend Bob Anderson could hire on, too.”

“Bob Bloom, business agent for the Carpenter’s Local 1172, was begging for workers last fall. But not any more. ‘I’ve got plenty of people. I’ve got so many applications here, I don’t think I can employ them in the next two years,’ said Bloom.”

“The water slide project has attracted 30 subcontractors, including workers from Helena who will start painting the drywall Monday.”

“‘It’s slowed down so much in Helena that one contractor I know is sitting on two four-plexes and two houses with his last buy-sell signed last April,’ Brandon said. ‘So, he’s coming over to paint for me.’”




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121 Comments »

Comment by sf jack
2008-03-17 15:19:42

The PNW appears late to the game - but I am guessing that they and the SLC region will catch right up!

Comment by Michael Emmel
2008-03-17 15:23:14

Why would you say that ? They have a strong economy underpinned by lumber for the housing industry ? Ohh wait…

Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2008-03-17 16:16:45

And semiconductor for when lumber craters. Oh wait…

 
Comment by SeattleMoose
2008-03-17 18:12:28

Relax…it is different in Seattle….we have THE ZUNE!!!

As far as $1M condos in Tacoma….if that ain’t puttin lipstick on a pig I don’t know what is.

 
 
Comment by Seattle Renter
2008-03-17 16:11:40

Ya, it’s funny how the lines about the market “flattening out” but poised for a pickup in just a few months are pretty much exactly the same things being said by the same (type of) people in CA and FL several months or so ago.

But see, it’s different here…..(well, the timing anyway).

 
Comment by MacAttack
2008-03-17 16:50:21

Yes, if you look at the appreciation (depreciation) indices, with Portland and Seattle staggered 18 months, (see The Tim/Seattle Bubble) the curve fits nicely and doesn’t bode well for the future. In Portland, I’d have to say, some prices are off 20% from the wishing prices, but new burb townhouse prices have barely budged. On the other hand, building has slowed dramatically - a whole hundred-unit TH development has sat for about three months with only site prep done.

 
Comment by AztoORtoCOtoOR
2008-03-17 17:10:58

Fortunately, the Portland area, especially Washington county (Beaverton, Hillsboro, etc.) is different. My neighbor’s keep telling me how prices sure haven’t dropped much and the urban growth boundaries will protect the prices. I keep telling them, maybe they are right, but we sure thought things were different in Phoenix in 2005.

Comment by Michael Emmel
2008-03-17 17:34:38

Dude its quite different around Portland. The next smoking crater in the area won’t be from a volcano.

 
Comment by MacAttack
2008-03-17 21:57:09

The only thing that will save Portland - and I believe it will to some extent - was our lateness to the party. I think most builders here saw the destruction elsewhere, and called a halt - or their bankers did. So where other areas have square miles of empty, finished houses - we have fewer square miles of empty site prep.

 
 
Comment by Happy Renter in Vancouver
2008-03-17 23:09:38

I’m from Vancouver, but even I know how much Tacoma is a boring dump of a sh*thole. The most boring weekend of my life was spent in this place. We had to drive to Olympia and it’s Farmer’s Market for excitement… Very, very Sad!

 
 
Comment by Grey
2008-03-17 15:21:28

“The Roberson (is) less than a block from City Hall. Such a condo will go to the smart investor who understands the value of buying in an urban setting that’s being transformed, said developer Blaine Johnson. He was confident enough in the unit’s appeal to raise the price from $899,000 to $999,000.”

That statement is so retarded it makes my head hurt.

Comment by aqius
2008-03-17 15:36:37

wow, good thing it wasn’t in the hip, cutting edge, urban category or it would have easily been over 1 mil.

with multiple offers.

 
Comment by are they crazy
2008-03-17 15:49:29

I feel like a cartoon character today - the one with the steam coming out of the ears.

 
Comment by Brandon
2008-03-17 15:52:53

More marketing muckety muck- housing is going to be driven by the credit markets and other ecoconomic condition; niceties such as walkable neighborhoods, hipness, an other touchy feely curb appeal will only serve as frosting on the cake

 
Comment by Blano
2008-03-17 17:37:39

If he imports some homeless and pays them to pee on the sidewalks he could charge another hundred grand or so.

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-03-17 19:09:22

Ain’t that the truth!

 
 
 
Comment by BanteringBear
2008-03-17 15:22:46

Philip Eder of Puyallup said he hasn’t drawn much interest in his house since putting it on the market in September. Eder mortgaged his house to fund construction of the retirement home he’s building. He had planned to pay for the new home with the sale of his current one, but said he instead might be forced to rent the old one out.‘The market’s just saturated with houses,’ he said. ‘I blame these cracker-box housing projects.’”

You wouldn’t be blaming the same developers who drove up the price of land, and subsequently your own home equity, would you Mr. Eder? Ever look in the mirror and see greed written all over your own pathetic face?

Comment by Mo Money
2008-03-17 15:55:10

why is it he can’t retire in the house he already has ? Oh, that’s right, it’s not his “dream home”.

 
Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2008-03-17 16:05:05

Bantering,

Is the state fair still held in Puyallup?

Comment by BanteringBear
2008-03-17 16:28:33

Yes, the Puyallup fair is still there. I try to go every year. I appreciate simple pleasures, and some things never get old.

Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2008-03-17 16:49:08

I loved going to the fair. I remember a commerical where they had animals and people doing the Puyallup two step for the state fair.

The rodeo was my favorite at the state fair.

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Comment by Tom
2008-03-17 18:08:17

Giddy-Up…

Can you get Elephant Ears there?

 
 
Comment by RoundSparrow
2008-03-17 21:06:23

Great RV park on the backside of the fair. $14/night and open year round. Very simple but great location.

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Comment by Big V
2008-03-17 17:43:35

I’m a little confused here. If he funded construction of his new house by mortgaging his old one, then isn’t the new one already paid for? Can’t he just walk away from the old one now?

 
 
Comment by arroyogrande
2008-03-17 15:22:56

Has Joe Microsoft’s perception of real estate in the Pac North West (”it’s different here, it always goes up”) changed at all, or is it still hard to be a housing bear in the area?

Comment by sf jack
2008-03-17 15:36:37

I’ve heard this… that real estate has gotten soft in some respects in Ketchum / Sun Valley (condos and townhouse variety in the original “famous” Hollywood ski town) and that’s where some of the Joe Microsoft’s like to spend to their ski weekends.

 
Comment by deejayoh
2008-03-17 16:15:35

That first article was one of the more bearish from the writer at the Seattle PI. It’s starting to dawn on people, but there’s still more than enough denial to go around.

Comment by BanteringBear
2008-03-17 16:30:33

I think it’s starting to occur to the masses, that Seattle ain’t so special

Comment by Rintoul
2008-03-17 17:19:57

Yeah, that’s San Diego’s claim! Who don’t wanna live here?!?

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Comment by NWer Again
2008-03-18 07:50:32

Surprisingly, people are happy in their denial here. We moved back here last summer (from SF) and we’re stunned. SIL is a realtor who can’t even find buyers for her OWN house and she’s still crowing about how stable the economy is, new buyers moving here every day, Seattle/Tacoma is different… mleh

 
 
Comment by Brandon
2008-03-17 15:23:09

“Two massive housing developments in Las Vegas, involving several of the nation’s largest home builders, have received default notices on about $765 million in debt, according to one of the partners in the projects.”

I little OT, but will throw it out in case it did not make into any posts over the weekend.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120553684871238089.html

Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-03-17 15:55:40

In other OT news, the HBB Bits Bucket has topped the 500 comment mark. Could a 1k HBB be in sight?

(Remember when a 1k DJIA was a big deal?)

Comment by Big V
2008-03-17 17:49:27

I think Ben had 669 at it’s peak (so far).

 
Comment by Big V
2008-03-17 17:50:42

“its”

Sometimes I bother myself.

 
 
 
Comment by Mo Money
2008-03-17 15:23:50

“‘I totally wished I would have waited,’ Waters said.”

And we’ll be hearing this a lot this time next year from all the wannabe investors picking up “sweet deals” on the foreclosure (short)bus tours.

Comment by smf
2008-03-17 16:09:42

And will these people be the next to do jingle mail? There are plenty of other knife catchers being created daily. We have a loooong way to go.

I call 3rd inning.

Comment by Neil
2008-03-17 16:41:15

I agree. Its the *start* of the 3rd.

Got Popcorn?
Neil

Comment by RentingInSV
2008-03-17 17:21:02

“Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.”

Winston Churchhill, November 10th, 1942

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Comment by robmypro
2008-03-17 18:58:31

Great line. Works for me.

 
 
Comment by jim
2008-03-17 17:45:56

So, what happens, inning by inning? Is there a scorreboard for this game?

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Comment by Paul in Jax
2008-03-17 18:50:00

In Fla., it’s already in the 5th or 6th. CA and VA are in the 4th, MA and NY in the 3rd. In Europe, the game has finally started; Spain has finished the 1st inning. Canada and NZ are playing their national anthems. Pitchers and fielders are still warming up in the Netherlands; initial batting practice is going on in parts of Asia. The Middle East has just announced a game; most are unaware of the venue or the rules.

 
Comment by robmypro
2008-03-17 18:59:35

Let’s just say you won’t want to leave the game early!

 
Comment by RoundSparrow
2008-03-17 21:09:07

Florida will be going into extra innings if you really think it is that far along. It has a lot to fall. They have been damn lucky last two hurricane seasons. Crappy boom construction won’t hold up.

 
Comment by Dave of the North
2008-03-18 03:03:21

Canada is in different stages as well - Calgary is in the top of the first inning, but here in Saint John they are just talking about building the Field of (Broken) Dreams…:-)

 
 
 
 
Comment by Desertdweller
2008-03-17 22:01:27

People on LA tv news tonight, for some reason keep catching that one minute sound bite, anyway, another couple, guy 50 + wife. He-dealer in vegas,she- administrator, after they got a big home at $270k ish, for I/O WIfe lost her job, they took the 30k to cover mortgage and then the payments kept going up. Now they live in a trailer and he says it is unfair. Whatever.
They feel that the ppl who ’sold’ them their IO mtgg were truthful and that the fine print isn’t understandable.
Okey dokey.

Comment by Leighsong
2008-03-17 22:35:18

Wow.

People.

Leigh

 
 
 
Comment by jetson_boy
2008-03-17 15:37:00

Just an update from my visit in TN. We took a camping trip to the Big South Fork National Park over the weekend. This is an area that’s roughly 2 hours outside of the closest larger town- Knoxville TN. It is near the KY border. There’s little to no industry to speak of. Altogether remote.

Despite that, there was a massive amount of lots that were all for sale. I went to this park as a kid and most of it was farmland. It appears that these farms have been diced up into lots for retirees. There was a lot of billboards with new home developments being planned for the future. I recall being at dinner at one area restaurant and hearing a couple across from us mention that investors had come in and bought a lot of these lots without any plans on what to do with them, only to put them up for sale later. There are A LOT of these for sale and I think I might have seen one sold sign.

Later in the weekend, we headed for KY. Southeastern KY is about the most rural area I can possibly imagine and has quite a bit of poverty. Even so, the story was much the same there, with many lots, farms, houses, and buldings for sale.

Signing off.

Comment by hd74man
2008-03-17 16:40:07

RE: It appears that these farms have been diced up into lots for retirees.

I’ve been reading that the sites of many southern Civil War battlefields are under intense pressure from developer’s.

DUH…what’s the American Civil War?

Guess you can’t expect much from a nation of American Idol worshippers.

Comment by jim
2008-03-17 17:53:35

Actually, how long does something need to be preserved for posterity? At what point do we decide that its time to plow under the “historic” sites to let history continue?

 
Comment by Hazard
2008-03-17 17:58:32

My sister lives between Knoxville and Chattanooga eastward toward the Smokies. The area is absolutely beautiful. I’ve noticed that a lot of new large estate sized houses are being built (or completed) over the past 2-3 years there and this is in a fairly isolated area.

Her house and all her neighbors are, in fact, becoming totally out of character with the new construction going on. Her place is an old country farm house, cedar siding, tin roof, 100 years old and beautiful in its own right. My BIL will never, ever sell the place as he raises and sells horses and is in the perfect location to do so. But some of the new residents are starting to complain … they don’t want working farms any where close to their “so called” mansions.

Comment by aNYCdj
2008-03-17 19:33:46

Have them tell them the new residents we will sell at DOUBLE/TRIPLE the market price, or buzz off!

Fair is Fair……You want No Horse sheet and a we want a lot of cashola
=============================
But some of the new residents are starting to complain … they don’t want working farms any where close to their “so called” mansions.

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Comment by MacAttack
2008-03-17 22:05:01

Heh heh… if it were me, it would be time to start burning trash (legality permitting, of course).

 
 
Comment by Frank Giovinazzi
2008-03-17 20:12:57

“I love the smell of Nutrient Management in the morning.”

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Comment by thankfulrenter
2008-03-18 08:44:24

I am going to visit my sister in Whitwell in May. Cant wait to see how it is going there then. Rural, no major employment, housing up up and away….the usual song and dance. I wonder if the music has stopped for that area yet?

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Comment by REhobbyist
2008-03-17 20:42:24

hd74man: I guess that’s the silver lining of the housing bust - the developers won’t be able to destroy our history. I remember making a Civil War history trip to Gettysburg with my family in the early 60s, and I’ve done some driving trips to Virginia battlefields on my own in more recent years. Definitely worthwhile.

 
 
Comment by Big V
2008-03-17 17:53:40

Sounds like food costs might start to go down, now that all these stupid little retiree lots can go back to being farm land.

 
Comment by REhobbyist
2008-03-17 20:36:38

Sounds like a beautiful vacation, Elroy! I’m looking forward to an equally enjoyable week in my birthplace, Detroit, this summer.

Just kidding. The Blue Ridge mountains are just as gorgeous as anything in California.

 
 
Comment by Mo Money
2008-03-17 15:46:49

‘This will be worth $1.5 million. Will it be three years, four years? I don’t know. It’s inevitable.’”

So why aren’t you trying to get $1.5M for it now smartass ?

 
Comment by catspit1
2008-03-17 15:47:46

BJ, i’d like to go on record as appalled by your blatant kowtowing to Olympiagirl, two PNW posts in a couple days.

Comment by Ben Jones
2008-03-17 15:52:09

‘I totally wished I would have waited,’ Waters said’

Come now, with a quote like that, how could I resist?

Comment by shizo
2008-03-17 16:16:22

Hey now, I’m a PNW’er waiting for a sign that this will happen here, just the smell of the kool-aid flowing from all sides is making me weary!

 
 
 
Comment by Mo Money
2008-03-17 15:51:35

And now from the “What’s he been smokin” Dept.

‘The trend looks like the market is coming back,’ he said. ‘Everyone slowed production to almost nothing. We’re going to create a shortage if we’re not careful.’”

You just go ahead and build them thar houses stoner, we wouldn’t want a shortage and increasing prices no sir !

 
Comment by Mo Money
2008-03-17 16:00:59

“Tamarack is at a crossroads as real as that of the luxury ski and golf resort, where construction has slowed to a crawl.”

Hey when you guys are done building all these “luxury” resorts and golf clubs, could you build some “discount” resorts for those of us who aren’t pretending to be rich ?

Comment by Brandon
2008-03-17 16:17:06

Tamarack is another example of project that comprise a majority of developments that are chasing the same demographics that account for a small percentage of the population.

Comment by Gracie
2008-03-17 18:10:03

We’ve got one here going in here, Bitterroot Resort. I wonder how their financing is working out. Same deal - ski, golf, expensive RE. I can’t believe it’ll ever get off the ground, though the ski runs are cut, bleah.

Comment by Dinasmom
2008-03-18 10:14:10

There is a website devoted to “ghost” ski resorts. One particular favorite of ours was Ski Rio in northern New Mexico. If you want some true eye opening moments, read the history on that place. Be careful though, if you are having a beverage.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Dinasmom
2008-03-18 10:20:46
 
 
 
 
Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2008-03-17 16:23:30

LOL, no shite. Does Arapahoe Basin ski area in CO still maintain the lack of pretense it once held? One of my favorite poor-guy “resorts.”

Comment by Leighsong
2008-03-17 23:01:41

HAR!

Poor Leigh in 1980…Arapohoe (sp?). Devil’s bowl…WOW!

I made it through that…er…LORD, I could have…OMG.

Great memories.

Thanks,
Leigh

 
 
Comment by vozworth
2008-03-17 17:23:53

Thats called the Muni-Course, get in 18 for 36 buck, no cart. No pool, but ther are plenty of ponds.

Comment by vozworth
2008-03-17 18:47:03

when I was an undergrad in San Diego, we made money fishin golf balls out of ponds all around…..frog man, style…

the joy of youth.

 
 
Comment by MacAttack
2008-03-17 22:08:53

I believe Tamarack is the resort they were advertising in Portland, using some line like “you deserve it.” Well, we have several ski areas within a two-hour drive. I wondered why the hell an Idaho resort would advertise in PDX. Now it makes sense. They were after that elite 1%!

 
 
Comment by Duane lapinski
2008-03-17 16:01:43

Crew are leaving Bozeman for Billings? I wounder why that is? I never read anything like that in Bozeman Daily Cover-Up. Why everything is peachy around here.

The people the the Cover-up inteviews are real estate professonals, they know whats going on. There are no problems in Bozeman.

Must be all these contractors are lossers if they Have to leave Bozeman.

Comment by Paul in Jax
2008-03-17 16:28:33

Everything is moving east in Montana, toward the workingman oil and wheatfields, away from the lovely scenery, tourists, and (drying up) California money.

 
Comment by Tango in Uniform
2008-03-17 16:57:51

Hmmm.. so does this mean that Billings will be the very last gasp of the nationwide housing bubble? WA and UT look to be on the way down. It’ll be a tight race between UT, WY, and MT to see who goes down last.

Comment by Paul in Jax
2008-03-17 18:43:13

Biggest Q4 OFHEO increase was North Dakota. Williston, N.D. is ground zero. 200+ years after Lewis and Clark excitement is returning.

 
Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-03-17 19:23:05

“…so does this mean that Billings will be the very last gasp of the nationwide housing bubble?”

Well, wouldn’t that be fitting? Billings, after all, isn’t that far from the Little Bighorn.

 
 
 
Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2008-03-17 16:19:56

No offense to Puyallupians (Puyallupites?), and to be fair I haven’t been through there in years, but $425K?? In Puyallup? $525K the previous fall?

Madre de dios.

Comment by MacAttack
2008-03-17 16:52:44

And the Aroma of Tacoma must be the smell of money!

Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2008-03-17 19:07:46

More like a pulp mill.

 
 
 
Comment by potential buyer
2008-03-17 16:38:46

I think I posted this earlier, but didn’t see it. Test, Test……:-)

At a St. Patty’s party on Saturday night, I was happily told about this new house the couple were moving into. So, being nosy, I asked what sort of downpayment was needed these days. I was told ‘none’! They are getting their loan through CAL FHD (I think) and no downpayment required. They said they were getting ’special financing’, whatever the hell that meant. Go figure.

Comment by wmbz
2008-03-17 17:17:06

Oh yea, our local BOA is still offering zero down 100% loans. We have a long way to go yet.

 
Comment by combotechie
2008-03-17 17:24:42

Perhaps CAL FHD = CAL VET ?

 
Comment by Big V
2008-03-17 18:00:19

This is something akin to bragging about food stamps. You should make subtle remarks to make these people feel inferior, but not so they can actually call you on it.

 
 
Comment by crisrose
2008-03-17 16:41:15

“Elaine Nordgaard bought her SouthRidge house for $350,000 last month, benefiting from a weekend Centex promotion. ‘The one I bought was listed for $510,000 back in September of ‘06,’ she said. ‘They actually sold it twice (before), but the buyers couldn’t complete their financing for some reason.’ Now she lives next to Waters and Marschell Lockwood, who paid $464,000 for her house in January 2007. ‘It’s frustrating because when we moved in they had dropped the prices,’ Lockwood said. ‘We thought we got a deal, but now there’s people coming in paying almost $100,000 less.’”

Lockwood: By paying $100,000 less, we thought we were screwing the people who bought last year. Now, someone else is screwing us! It isn’t fair!

Comment by Neil
2008-03-17 16:53:23

ROTFL

So the bid is now $250k. Do I hear $150k? ;)

This hasn’t even begun. But the schadenfreude is great!

Got Popcorn?
Neil

 
 
Comment by vozworth
2008-03-17 16:42:44

Uhhg more douglas County News…

it really is the weather. Its been RAINING SHOES FROM NEW YORK all the way in Oregon.

 
Comment by gascap
2008-03-17 16:48:30

“Karen Waters thought she got a good deal last March when she paid $425,000 for a new house in the SouthRidge at Silver Creek development near Puyallup. After all, the price was about $100,000 less than buyers had paid builder Centex Homes for similar houses on the block the previous fall. By February, however, neighboring homes were selling for about $350,000.”

“‘I totally wished I would have waited,’ Waters said.”

I just don’t understand how these people’s brains can be so pea-sized not to realize that when something is plummeting in value that there is at the very least a slight non-zero risk that it will continue plummeting in value. They think when housing is appreciating rapidly it’s a good time to buy since housing will keep going up forever, and when housing is plummeting in value it’s also a good time to buy because housing always appreciates forever. I just can’t wrap my mind around this “logic”.

Comment by Michael Emmel
2008-03-17 17:27:50

A lot of people will jump in as housing prices fall and they find something that reaches their ability to pay. I’ve noticed that although credit seems to be tightening it still seems quite lax to me. Maybe been could do a post on what loans are still available.

So even though this person talked about price under the covers the real motivation to buy was that they thought they could make the payment.

I think this mentality of focusing on monthly payments was also strong right before the Great Depression from my reading. It seems that once a society is converted to one that is focused on making credit/loan payments is when it seems to stumble and fall.

In any case this is what causes knife catchers and draws out the downturn well past the bottom as they become foreclosure stats themselves over the next five years.

Realize that this person will be way underwater in two years. And the first moment they can’t make the payment they will be foreclosed on.

 
 
Comment by Bill GWU
2008-03-17 16:51:37

Here is a clue.. The market will stabilize when the price of a home mortgage = Potential rent - (home insurance cost + repair(s) allotment + taxes + PROFIT) Current home prices bear very little resemblance of the function that drives the prices. Unrealistically low interest rates are to blame! The sad part is that homes will need to lose a significant chunk STILL before equilabrium is restored (probably 30% in my market)

 
Comment by catspit1
2008-03-17 17:13:46

O shut up it is human nature isn’t it? There but for the grace of God…

 
Comment by rms
2008-03-17 17:26:03

“The Roberson (is) less than a block from City Hall. Such a condo will go to the smart investor who understands the value of buying in an urban setting that’s being transformed, said developer Blaine Johnson. He was confident enough in the unit’s appeal to raise the price from $899,000 to $999,000.”

Bars in the windows, urinated bus stops, tattoo parlors, etc., set the ambiance near Tacoma’s city hall. Only $999k for the smart investor? LOL!

Comment by ella
2008-03-17 23:42:12

“Only $999k for the smart investor? LOL!”

I love that he cleverly made it look like less than a million with the 99¢ salesman trick.

 
 
Comment by SolvingADream
2008-03-17 17:28:21

Whenever I see Ben post articles about Seattle I get nostalgic and think about Seattle Eric…remember him? The guy that at the top of the market quit his job and became a gentleman developer? He boasted that even if the market went down he could still make money.

I really wanted to keep track of him, but he pulled his blog and turned and ran like a dog….

Comment by Skroodle
2008-03-17 19:16:19

http://seattlebubble.com/blog/2007/08/15/tales-of-a-seattle-real-estate-investor-epilogue/#more-1022

Currently, we are investing in syndicates that are buying up apartment complexes (mostly in Texas). This provides cash flow (average is 10%) and an estimated appreciation of 70% over two and five years (two different projects).

I guess he never did really learn….

Comment by Michael Emmel
2008-03-18 01:19:41

How much you want to bet the money he makes of his stock options is gone in ten years ? If he is lucky they won’t all vest for 3-4 years and he might get lucky at real estate by accidentally paying a reasonable price.

 
 
 
Comment by Big V
2008-03-17 17:38:57

California East Bay HBB Party:

An HBB Party will be held this Saturday, March 22nd at 2 PM at El Burro (3100 Newpark Mall) in Newark. They have OK food and stuff and they make margaritas. Who wants to go?

Comment by REhobbyist
2008-03-17 21:02:08

I would love to go, Big V, but I’ll be working here in Sacramento until about 2 p.m., and it takes me about 90 minutes to drive there. I need to go to that mall, so I may stop in to say hello.

Comment by Big V
2008-03-18 15:37:47

I meant to say 7 PM.

 
 
 
Comment by Ron
2008-03-17 17:43:06

I grew up in Puyallup, was 4-H and FFA at the Fair. Back in the 50’s you could have bought the whole valley for 400K. What a mess today, Meridian Ave off the 5 is a series of strip malls that run for miles, UFB .

 
Comment by Tom
Comment by txchick57
Comment by Tom
2008-03-17 18:53:42

It kind of makes sense why JPM would jump to bailout BSC.

Why? Because JPM is the most leveraged with Derivatives at over 91 TRILLION DOLLARS! If BSC unwound causing severe deleveraging, it could have completely wuped out JPM.

Scary.

 
Comment by Tom
2008-03-17 19:13:32

I invent some crazy WORDS… maybe wuped is more severe than wiped?

Eh… I just type too fast ;-)

 
 
Comment by Tom
2008-03-17 20:10:36

I also noticed that second in exposure is Citigroup. They are way down.

Who is 3rd? Bank of America. Maybe they insured Countrywide’s stuff and when Countrywide’s stuff started defaulting, maybe that is why they stepped in not to mention that they also submerged $2 Billion in CFC @ $18 a share.

Comment by REhobbyist
2008-03-17 21:08:03

I just got a call from Citi today. Apparently they are now carrying my mortgage. Actually that’s a step up - the old one was serviced by Countrywide.

 
 
Comment by still not time
2008-03-17 20:23:29

Does anybody have any idea what banks are safe? After reading this blog for the last few years I thought I’d do my homework on “safe” banks. I thought Northern trust was in good shape but according to that chart it ain’t looking to good.

 
 
Comment by SDGreg
2008-03-17 18:24:29

“Morris said he believes this is a return to a normal market, not a downturn, and he expects the market to pick up in the next several months. The national media may be playing a doom-and-gloom song, but the local housing market looks good for the foreseeable future, Morris said.”

The credit markets are in turmoil. We’re in a recession. Prices are still above historical levels with high levels of inventory. The market will pick up in the next several months. Which one of these doesn’t fit? If you build it they will come?!

 
Comment by robmypro
2008-03-17 19:05:59

The conversation around my house has turned from “when is the bottom” to “do we really want to buy a house in this environment?” and I think a lot of people are going to come to this same conclusion within the next few months. I doubt many people here are going to be willing to pull the trigger. Things are going to get a lot worse in the next 6-12 months.

Comment by awaiting wipeout
2008-03-17 19:18:27

We’re ex-homeowners, waiting on the sidelines to pay cash for our “last” home, so we think. The issue for us is 3 storage units, a rental we live in, and our sanity, so we might pull the trigger, but only if the price is fair. Renting isn’t cheap in So Ca for us, and we need a home. $3,000 to rent a home is insanity vs. buying. I completely understand your viewpoint.

Comment by REhobbyist
2008-03-17 21:17:05

I spoke to my nephew yesterday (actually my husband’s nephew.) In 2004 they bought a condo for $400K in Valley Village, over my strenuous protests. They bragged to me about how much it had appreciated until last summer, when he developed a serious health problem that took him out of work. We got all of the health care stuff out of the way, and he started back to work in December. Then the writers strike started (he works in the TV business), and he was out of work again until recently. Their reset will happen in 2009. A real estate agent recently priced it at about the purchase price. They can’t find a rental that matches their current mortgage payment. At this point they don’t have money to bring to the table. I told him that they should save like crazy to bring money to the table for their refi next year. I couldn’t bring myself to suggest that they could walk away next year, but that will probably be their only choice by 2009. Yeesh.

 
Comment by Big V
2008-03-17 21:56:47

Hi AW:

That must be some huge, lush house you got there for $3k/month. If you want to save $$, maybe you can rent a nice middle-class 4/2 for more like $2200. That’s assuming you have a large family. If you just have 2 kids like most people, then maybe you can rent a modest 3/2 for $1900 or so.

 
 
Comment by awaiting wipeout
2008-03-17 19:22:45

robmypro-
Where do you live?

I see a 50-65% drop from the peak in So Ca. With salary deflation, the “D” a comin, and the inventory of resale and new homes, I can’t imagine anything less.

 
 
Comment by Tom
2008-03-17 19:20:32

Cramer is an idiot. Anyone remember when he had “Leathers” (aka Angelo Mozillo) on last spring? AM talked about how there was no housing bubble and CFC was rock solid. Cramer fell all over himself praising AM and probably would have blown him if AM was in the studio instead of on the phone.

Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2008-03-17 21:05:24

“Leathers”

LOL!!

Comment by Tom
2008-03-17 21:32:45

Or Orangzillo.

 
 
 
Comment by CrackerJim
2008-03-17 20:21:41

Say good night, Gracie.

 
Comment by Bye FL
2008-03-17 20:29:13

6-12 months before house prices drop another leg? I can hardly wait! Do you think it’s realistic to see houses in north Georgia or east Tennessee going for $100k courtesty of the bank begging you to buy it? I would like something nice, 4 bed, 2-3 bath, partial or full basement, 2 car garage and 2000-2500 square feet house on at least an acre(double lot?) of land for $100k. Right now they are around $250k. Theres no jobs within 2 hours commute and it’s mostly rural hills. Great peaceful setting which is what I want. NW Pennsylvania has that and decent prices. I would like to see those prices in other locations!

Comment by Big V
2008-03-17 21:59:16

Bye:

What do you do for a living?

 
 
Comment by JoJo
2008-03-18 07:59:04

“The Herald from Washington. “Drive through newer residential areas in Marysville and witness what happens when buyers stop buying houses and developers keep developing. Empty lots line roads and the edges of cul-de-sacs. Many have sidewalks, utilities and roads, but no houses.”

I remember visiting my grandmother’s beach cottage in Neptune, New Jersey in the mid 1960’s and seeing rusted-out light poles and crumbling curbs in the middle of a field. It turns out that in the summer of 1929 a builder bought the land, laid out the subdivision, built 6 houses and went bankrupt in the Great Depression. It took 40 years before that area was finally built up. I wonder how long it will take for these new subdivisions to be built?

 
Comment by Dinasmom
2008-03-18 09:57:36

Walked through the center of Winter Park last week on a day off from skiing. It was the “big” spring break for Texas universities- with a lot of the high school breaks occuring this week. The resort was very uncrowded, and the majority of accents heard were not American but British. I looked in vain for UT and A&M hoodies… but saw a lot of little blonde ski tots from overseas. The hostess at one of the restaurants told me that the resort would fill up this week with the domestic “breakers”, and I told her that their expected rush had already begun. Maybe the high schoolers folks will take the kids skiing, but I have a feeling that they will choose lower end places like Ruidoso and the Enchanted Circle in News Mexico. I suspect this downturn has a lot to do with dried up HELOC funds. Good for us because the snow was perfect, and the lift lines were nonexistent. I got in more actual skiing for the allotted time than in the past three years.
I dropped in to a real estate office in the village that was promoting in-town condos that must have been envisioned in someone’s feverish mind. The salesman bragged to me about the low cost per square foot of the “proposed” complex- their asking price is more than 400K for 900 square feet. The expensive brochures advise silver-haired couples to “reserve a place in their hearts” suggesting that your children will be more likely to visit you if you dangle a ski vacation in front of them after retirement… but where are you going to put them if they come????

 
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