A Slapdash Quality In California
The Napa Valley Register reports from California. “For Francisco Zapien, the deal was too good to be true. In October of 2006, Zapien signed a contract for a home on Bryan Avenue in Napa. The $550,000 mortgage he was approved for required no down payment. Today Zapien, who has worked as a tractor driver and machinist for the past four years, is caught in a vise. His monthly mortgage is more than he can pay. His home has lost value.”
“‘I have put my home on the market,’ said Zapien. ‘It’s too much money to pay each month.’”
“Zapien knew his monthly costs would be high, so he rented two rooms in his home. The rooms yielded an extra $1,000 a month to help pay the $3,600 monthly mortgage. But with utility bills and other expenses, Zapien said he still was scrambling to pay $2,900 a month.”
“‘If the home doesn’t sell, I will have to turn it in to the bank,’ he said.”
“Evodio Perez, of Napa, is playing a waiting game; in January 2009, he will find out if he has to sell his house or keep it. After refinancing a condo he owned in Napa and making a $60,000 down payment, Perez moved into his El Capitan Way home in 2006.”
“After a few months of barely making the $1,800 mortgage, Perez realized that his adjustable-rate loan was too much. He considered refinancing, but the terms of his loan required him to make regular mortgage payments for three years before refinancing or selling the property. Otherwise, he’d face hefty penalties.”
“In January, Perez said he will find out how much his house is worth. If it’s gone down in value, he will have to sell — if not, he will look to refinance.”
“‘I feel frustrated,’ he said. ‘I bought my home with the intent to progress.’”
“The number of Napa County homes sold in February 2008 dipped substantially compared to February of last year, while the number of homes on the Napa County market has grown.”
“The median price for a Napa County home was $573,000 in February, compared to $670,000 a year earlier. The median for April 2004 was $540,000, meaning home values remain higher than they were before the market reached a dizzying peak.”
“‘Buyers (are) waiting for ‘the bottom,’ circling but not landing,’ wrote Karen Cherniss, with Windermere Real Estate, in an e-mail.”
“According to Trendgraphix Inc., 38 Napa county homes were sold in February 2008, compared to 72 in February 2007. The number of homes for sale in Napa County rose to 720, compared to 605 a year ago.”
“Of the 38 Napa County homes sold in February, Randy Gularte of Heritage Sotheby’s International Realty, estimates 25 percent of those were in distress, either so-called short sales or pre-foreclosures.”
“Over the last six months in American Canyon, the median price has dropped from $600,000 to $400,000. But so has inventory, and that will help what has been a quiet market. Only three homes were sold in February in the south county city, according to TrendGraphix.”
The Sacramento Bee. “Julia and Gary Draper are in escrow for a house where the lawn is overgrown, the carpet needs replacing and the fence blew down in a January storm. Not surprisingly, a bank has owned the place for months.”
“But at $170,000 for three bedrooms in Rio Linda, it is their dream come true.”
“Gary Draper, a public school safety officer with construction experience, did the home inspection himself.”
“In the Drapers’ case, the bank wanted $179,000. The couple offered $150,00 and asked the bank to cover closing costs, says Julia Draper. ‘They countered at $170,000 and said they would pay some closing costs. We accepted.’”
“It appears a good deal. The house last sold in May 2005 for $302,500. A home two blocks away and somewhat larger sold recently for $179,500.”
“For buyers like the Drapers, it means an affordable house – their first home in 24 years together. ‘We’ve been trying for so long,’ says Julia. ‘I didn’t think (the market) was ever coming down.’”
The Bakersfield Californian. “Ducks would glide on a shimmering lake, ads promised. But City in the Hills’ dusty surrounds don’t yet match dreamy scenarios touted in sales brochures.”
“Plans to house 11,500 people in the mostly empty area opened doors for a batch of developments now sprouting nearby. So far, however, permits for just 439 single-family homes have been pulled at City in the Hills, said Phil Burns, Bakersfield’s building director.”
“Construction has largely slowed — as it has at many sites around Kern — since the housing market’s fizzle. Parks and pockets of retail and commercial development meant to provide convenience for those living in the master-planned community have yet to materialize.”
“On Thursday afternoon, a few construction crews worked inside K. Hovnanian’s two project sites here. But signs of unfulfilled grander plans are everywhere at the development’s edges.”
“Construction has stopped in Juliana’s Garden, said Cindy Pollard, a local representative for the project’s Los Angeles-based master developer. ‘Cash flow is an issue,’ she said. In the mean time, the company is trying to sell off its existing inventory of eight empty homes.”
“In August, Sarah Cisneros and her family were the first to move into a $338,000 home in Juliana’s Garden, she said. Cisneros regularly pays a homeowners association fee, she said, but sidewalks are cracked, fences unfinished, central fountains dry and promised parks and retail centers still don’t exist.”
“A ‘for rent’ sign hangs in the yard down the street from her home and several other houses appear empty. ‘It’s a little discouraging,’ Cisneros said.”
The Pasadena Star News. “It’s the misfortune of others that may finally give Fernando Sanchez and his family the chance, after renting here for 21 years, to own their own home.”
“Their budget? $550,000. Two years ago, they would have been priced into the far reaches of the San Gabriel Valley or beyond. Now, they’re looking at foreclosed homes nearby in the $300,000-range.”
“On Saturday, they saw a 1910 beauty in a nice part of Monrovia - three bedrooms, hardwood floors, grassy front and back yards and a two-car garage. The owner left the house 19 days ago and now the bank-owned home, which sold for $664,000 in 2005, was going for $318,000.”
“But the Sanchezes weren’t alone in admiring the home - and it looked like they might have to elbow a few interested buyers aside if they wanted to make a bid. The family was on a weekly minibus tour of foreclosed homes in the region.”
“Pasadena-based LTV Real Estate appears to be the first Los Angeles County firm to embrace the concept of loading clients on to a bus.”
“The operation Saturday had a slapdash quality, with helpers hurriedly stapling together printouts for buyers at a table filled with coffee and doughnuts. More journalists and photographers had arrived by the time of the tour bus’s scheduled departure than had tour participants.”
“The company’s investment in the bus tour has yet to pay off, but LTV has seen three of the homes it’s shown go into escrow in the past three weeks, CEO Cesar Haro said. Prices haven’t dropped as dramatically here as they have in Stockton, where a few of Haro’s employees went to train a few weeks ago.”
“‘We picture that happening in two to three months,’ Haro said.”
The North County Times. “A pair of recent FBI raids in Murrieta illustrates caseloads that are growing as homeowners allege recent, and not-so-recent, incidents of real estate fraud, law-enforcement officials said in interviews.”
“It has been a year or more since Southern California’s most recent real estate wave began to ebb, and court dockets are still filling up with allegations of fraud from the boom. And reports of identity theft and bogus reverse mortgages continue to roll in.”
“The California Department of Real Estate, reported investigating about 9,100 complaints against real estate agents and mortgage brokers in its 2007 fiscal year. That number has risen steadily for four years.”
“And the FBI tallied 260 convictions on mortgage-related crimes in the year through October, more than double the 123 convictions in 2005-06, according to a bureau spokesman.”
“‘There’s a lot of fraud when the market is good that people don’t report,’ said San Diego County Deputy District Attorney Michael Groch, who oversees real estate fraud prosecutions. ‘It’s when the market goes down that these things are exposed.’”
“Poway real estate appraiser Todd Lackner said he’s beginning to notice new patterns of unethical buying and selling behavior taking the place of large cases of outright fraud.”
“One scenario involves a homeowner who is ‘underwater,’ owing, for example, $700,000 on a house that she could sell for only $500,000. She wants to remain a homeowner in the same neighborhood, so she buys a comparable house down the street for $500,000 and moves into it.”
“The lender typically doesn’t care, or even know, that she’s underwater on the first house, as long as she’s current on payments.”
“After moving, she stops paying off the mortgage on the first house. The resulting foreclosure ruins her credit score for the next few years, but she doesn’t worry because she doesn’t plan to buy a house anytime soon.”
“Recent unethical or fraudulent transactions are small compared with what was going on from 2004 to 2006, Lackner said. Since he began combing through records of home listings and sales a couple of years ago, he said, he has discovered several dozen transactions in North County that appeared to involve some sort of fraud, and 500 more in Riverside County.”
“The fact that so many turn up in a simple search of title records indicates that many lenders were lax in screening buyers for their ability and intention to repay, he said.”
“And those numbers don’t even include stated-income mortgage applications, which didn’t require borrowers to provide proof of income. A 2006 study by the Mortgage Asset Research Institute found that 95 percent of stated-income borrowers overstated their incomes by more than 5 percent; 60 percent of the borrowers in the study exaggerated their incomes by more than half.”
“The statistics underscored nicknames such as ‘liar loans’ and ‘overstated income loans’ that the product had taken on. ‘That was almost its intention,’ Lackner said.”
“A frequent red flag near the end of the boom involved last-minute changes to asking prices in the listing database. Lackner said his reviews of listing and transaction records have turned up hundreds of cases in which a house sat on the market for several months, then suddenly had its list price raised by $10,000 or more, and immediately went into escrow.”
“That’s a potential sign that the buyer’s agent conspired to collect an oversized and undeserved commission on the property.”
The Union Tribune. “Robert and Yvonne Cromer began investing in real estate in 2000, when they tapped the equity in their College Area home to buy a nearby rental property.”
“Over the next few years, the San Diego County couple repeated the pattern, accumulating 17 properties in five states. In 2004, they were featured in a CNN Money article headlined ‘Tycoon in the Making.’”
“But…since October, they have lost three homes in San Diego County to foreclosure – homes they bought for a combined $2.6 million, according to county deed records. They have lost three homes in other states to lenders, Yvonne Cromer said.”
“A review of county foreclosures over the past 18 months by The San Diego Union-Tribune found about 200 investors who had lost multiple properties. That number probably understates multiple-property foreclosures because people with common names were excluded from the survey and not all foreclosures were reviewed.”
“Just how big a role investors played in inflating San Diego’s real estate bubble is unclear. Experts have widely varied estimates – with some putting the number as low as 10 percent of overall buyers in the last couple years while others speculate that it was closer to 30 percent.”
“‘The only sure answer is: It was more than we knew about and more than we should have had,’ said Peter Dennehy, senior VP at the market research firm Sullivan Group Real Estate Advisors in San Diego.”
“Studies by the Mortgage Bankers Association of America estimate that about 16 percent of California foreclosures have involved investors. The real estate investors who are now in trouble have some things in common. Most bought at the peak of the market. Several worked in real estate themselves.”
“Pamela Khamo began a career as a real estate agent in 2002 after selling her La Mesa coffee shop. By 2005, her annual income swelled to $360,000, according to bankruptcy records.”
“Khamo had begun buying investment properties a year or so earlier. In all, Khamo ended up with 13 properties at the peak, she said. Income from renting the properties fell well short of covering the mortgages. But the commissions she earned on the purchases helped offset the rental shortfall, she said.”
“Things started to unravel early last year. The slumping real estate market cut her income in 2007 to $180,000, bankruptcy records show. She became ill for a time. Meanwhile, her adjustable mortgages started to reset…sometimes doubling her monthly payments.”
“Khamo scrambled to refinance. She sought loan modifications from banks. But lenders had tightened standards. They wanted more equity in the properties than Khamo had, she said.”
“‘I did buy at the height of the market, unfortunately,’ she said.”
“Khamo filed for bankruptcy in February. She has lost the bulk of the properties to lenders already, according to county deed and bankruptcy court records. She expects to lose all of them. The East County home in which she and her husband reside has been taken back by the bank – although the family still lives there for now, she said.”
“‘It took six years to build everything up and six months to lose it,’ she said.”
The last two articles are especially worth reading in entirety.
“Just how big a role investors played in inflating San Diego’s real estate bubble is unclear. Experts have widely varied estimates – with some putting the number as low as 10 percent of overall buyers in the last couple years while others speculate that it was closer to 30 percent.”
“‘The only sure answer is: It was more than we knew about and more than we should have had,’ said Peter Dennehy, senior VP at the market research firm Sullivan Group Real Estate Advisors in San Diego.”
It was rather obvious that investors were playing a significant role near the peak. How many properties were immediately resold upon completion in 2004 and 2005? In 2005, some of the downtown properties had clauses (loosely enforced at best) that properties couldn’t be resold for a certain period of time following the purchase by the initial buyer. This was designed to reduce the impact of speculators. None of the cheerleaders thought the number of investor purchases was a problem then. To say now that it was a problem and that the number of investor purchases then was unknown is late and disingenuous.
I have no problems with anyone saying 50%+ of sales in SoCal were speculators in the past few years. If you lie about your income and buy a house you can only afford for a teaser IO rate, you are speculator. I’ve seen stats that show 40% of sales in SoCal were 2nd homes in 2006, how are they not “speculators?”
I agree Ben. I remember that article about the “Cromers” - so much so that I had to look it up. It is amazing how the media at that time was pumping real estate…enjoy…
http://tinyurl.com/3amce
And what about the value of the underlying assets? What if prices drop by more than 30%? In SW Florida their asking 1/2 price, buy one get one free.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgTdxEGauok
Actually, current SW Fla. prices are still not cheap, although they are at least showing the way. Before, it was buy one, pay for two (or more). This is what people still won’t admit.
30% is better than up north. A few months ago Remax put out their estimates for investor-related sales in Canada:
“The real estate company estimates that 50% of all sales activity in downtown Vancouver can be linked to investors while the figure for downtown Toronto attributable to new sales is approximately 60% to 85%.”
http://tiny.cc/9cOqZ
oof.
Those two cities will crash very, very hard. I talked to this young female just outside Vancouver and she thinks the olympus event will cause house prices to go up more. I told her to just move to the states and get a nice house for under $100k. You can’t get much for $500k in Vancouver. sad.
I just saw a tear-down 2-bedroom SFH which sold for 1.8 million. sob.
The olympics is a whole other crazy disconnect. Many people are planning on renting to Olympics visitors. Some for amounts in the thousands per week.
Number of people I know who are interested in attending any olympics event: 0.
Er…the Olympics last for what, three weeks? What do these would-be landlords plan to do for the other 49?
Not to mention the other 29 YEARS!
actuall 39 years, since they’re using 40 year mortgages in Van.
‘”actuall 39 years, since they’re using 40 year mortgages in Van.”
That’s long enough that maybe the Olympics will come back a second time and save everyone.
just to clarify: “30% is better than up north” is a response to “Just how big a role investors played in inflating San Diego’s real estate bubble is unclear. Experts have widely varied estimates – with some putting the number as low as 10 percent of overall buyers in the last couple years while others speculate that it was closer to 30 percent.” upthread.
“Besides losing two homes in Chula Vista and one in San Diego, the Cromers also lost homes in Nevada, Texas and Florida, Yvonne Cromer said.”
Do you have any guilty feelings, Yvonne?
Why are there so many stories out there of “real estate investors” who confuse brains with a bull market?
During a bull market, you can get good resultss with a chimpanzee and a dart board.
In the SD article, this genius participated in a roller-coaster riding contest (no joke) for 10 weeks (unpaid leave from his job no less) to try to win $50,000. He ended up getting $10,000 for his troubles, or $1,000 a week. Now tell me we don’t have a problem when someone like that can finance 15 houses.
The part I love about the Cromers is where it says their current rental income “roughly covers” the mortgage payment. We all know the answer, but of course the reporter doesn’t ask if those are fixed rate loans or ARMs.
If this article is correct, the next few years will be interesting to say the least.
http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/editorials/amerman/2008/0320.html
“The heart of the subprime problem is that no major stress tests happened in 2007 – and the market still blew up.”
Rational expectations have returned, with a pent-up vengeance.
“The Subprime Crisis is Just Starting” article then goes on to day this:
“For these reasons, there is a powerful, powerful case for moving a substantial portion of your assets into tangible assets. Good examples of tangible assets include gold, silver, commodities, real estate, farmland and energy.”
I’m curious how many people on this blog think that this is good investment advice or is the 15 year commodity bull maket just a bunch of malarky…?
I’m not counting on a general commodity bull market, but on gold’s resuming its historic role as money.
“Good examples of tangible assets include gold, silver, commodities, real estate, farmland and energy.”
Houses, anyone?
Gold and Silver as insurance as well as Money issued by Countries that do not run big deficits. The other stuff no I am not to interested as I beleive we will get Deflation after all which is not good.
Just posted CL NYC:
Liquidity Provider To Bear Stearns Employees (SoHo)
Reply to: sale-616071350@craigslist.org
Date: 2008-03-23, 6:15PM EDT
I am willing to provide liquidity to any Bear Stearns employee who has liquidity concerns over the recent change in ownership of their organization. I am willing to pay 75% of purchase price for any new construction condo purchased in between 2006-2008 and 65% of purchase price for any secondary market purchases of condos between 2006-2008. This offer only applies to the Manhattan area. Also, any new vehicles purchased between 2007-2008 with a purchase price of $75,000 or more, I will offer you 70% of purchase price, contingent on the vehicle being in pristine condition. I will consider other high end products on limited basis. Please send me the inquiries.
Vultures feeding on sharks. Heart-rending…NOT!
and I bet the offers of 70% are meant as ” up to 70% ” so when the actuall offer is made it’s all about … gee, sorry we can only offer 40%. take it or leave it. (like the car dealers do on trade-ins, after eating up yer time while stalling with lying doubletalk & promises, as you pace the showroom floor while they run a credit check on you to see just how much to bleed the victim, which they get from yer drivers license. ever wonder why the dealer are so insistent on getting a copy of yer license ASAP? test drive, etc? credit check & home address for follow up mailers, of course.)
easy to do, now that the desperate people have made themselves known to the pawnbrokers. love it. LOVE. IT.
One “stress test” he neglected was the loss of stigma associated with walking away from a mortgage that is affordable but, due to falling prices, has become a bad investment.
With the caveat that financialsense is a goldbug site, there is one area where even the worst scenario in the article is actually optimistic.
It only talks about the SUBPRIME numbers, which are in aggregate still much smaller than Alt-A and Prime.
In most of the article’s scenarios you are also going to see Prime losses spike upwards, and I suspect in ALL of them Alt-A is going to take a big hit.
In fact, it’s already starting …
“‘It took six years to build everything up and six months to lose it,’ (the realtor) said.”
Ah, the Schadenfreude meter is once again bouncing off the stop. May have to lower the sensitivity (the meter’s as well as my own) due to all these stories Ben keeps finding.
“Ah, the Schadenfreude meter is once again bouncing off the stop.”
I’m feeling the same way, especially after a little Sunday afternoon drive around the area. Mind blowing. There seems to be a pathetically exhausted vibe in the air, as if this part of Florida is just plain worn out, as if the “dull realization” (as Ben so astutely put it) is beginning to dawn. It’s not even summer yet and there’s a sense of wilted dispiritedness.
And people think the worst of this crisis is over. It’s like the Civil War — people are seeing Fort Sumter and think they’re seeing Gettysburg.
May have to lower the sensitivity (the meter’s as well as my own)
Yea, i had to swith mine to the 10^2 setting. It keeps it from being constantly pegged.
Now, those “Realtors” ™ were buying Bently’s, fancy watches, vacation packages, the best sport tickets (in bulk), plastic surgery, etc. We’ll see the impact quite a bit more in 2009.
This isn’t the end of the world. Its a normal correction. That’s healthy. But I cannot help but take schadenfreude as the crooks and uneducated perpetrators get taken to the cleaners a la Florida 1925/1926.
And yes, I realize the irony about posting about Schadenfreude on Easter.
Got Popcorn?
Neil
“the Schadenfreude meter”
Mine goes up to 11.
$170K for a 3 bedroom in Rio Linda just means one thing:
You are now a knifecatcher.
That house should not be worth more than $100K.
Yup, and the media and congress would do well to note that this blog will be sure to point out who’s to blame when the knife-catching round of FB woes begins:
‘In August, Sarah Cisneros and her family were the first to move into a $338,000 home in Juliana’s Garden, she said. Cisneros regularly pays a homeowners association fee, she said, but sidewalks are cracked, fences unfinished, central fountains dry and promised parks and retail centers still don’t exist. A ‘for rent’ sign hangs in the yard down the street from her home and several other houses appear empty. ‘It’s a little discouraging,’ Cisneros said.’
$338,000….in August!
There is really no conceivable way that garden variety homes in Bakersf*** should be going for more than $200K. The vast majority of jobs there (well, outside of the Crisp & Cole office *snort*) are REALLLLLLY low-end service sector, just like the rest of the Central Valley!
Most of the jobs there are of the “garden variety.” Literally!
I took a little Easter Sunday drive around some of the flood plain developments in my area today, just to get a feel for what is happening. Wow. Just, wow. I’d drive by a few houses that seemed to be occupied, in some cases with Easter Sunday family gatherings, and then I’d see weedy, abandoned looking homes and places with For Sale or For Rent signs. The most interesting thing was to see the price of the builder owned homes as opposed homes for sale by owners. $100,000 difference. Whew! It’s just as you said, Ben, the builders are leading the way down and undercutting their buyers. It must be hell to live in one of the stucco prison blocks I saw today.
It is crazy…
But in the spirit of easter, God bless the knife catchers. As many here have noted (e.g., Ben), they serve an important function of showing everyone else where the market prices are going.
We haven’t even begun to get into a recessionary job market. (Sadly, that is a certainty.)
Got Popcorn?
Neil
We haven’t even begun to get into a recessionary job market. (Sadly, that is a certainty.)
No way, the stimulus package is coming!
I was thinking the same. At least her losses is “only” $70k unless she just walks away. The last guy lost twice that much.
Floats away. Rio Linda is one of two Sacramento areas marked in red on the flood maps if a levee were to break. Around 18 feet underwater in a worst-case scenario— the houses around here tend to be single-floor ranch types, so standing on the roof doesn’t help.
I grew up in Sacramento, and I’ve always paid attention to the flooding that happens every few years. The fact that my mom got a geology degree and understood contour maps has a lot to do with where they live— the worst that’s going to happen is the yearly backyard mud pit.
We haven’t had a levee break yet but they’re only getting older. And Rio Linda and Natomas are great examples of why “underwater” is such an apt term.
“Pamela Khamo began a career as a real estate agent in 2002 after selling her La Mesa coffee shop. By 2005, her annual income swelled to $360,000, according to bankruptcy records.”
This is one reason why jail is not important for some of these realtors.
Going from earning $360K/year to bankruptcy is punishment enough for a lot of these morons.
Now we found out that the Kool-Aid WAS spiked with plenty of alcohol, and that hangover is gonna be a bitch.
Now we found out that the Kool-Aid WAS spiked with plenty of alcohol, and that hangover is gonna be a bitch.
In particular, since the Kool-Aid was spiked with Methanol.
Got Popcorn?
Neil
I’m not sure if you meant methanol on purpose as a little bit is deadly. Isopropanol (rubbing alcohol) will make one feel horrible afterwards but is nowhere near as deadly.
And did she really make $360K a year (you have to be a pretty high-power realtor to make that kind of money even in a crazy market) or was that just the amount on her liar-loan app?
And when she got a windfall of making all that loot, why the hell didn’t she save any rather than buying more houses. Oops! I forgot - she’s a victim of the big bad bankers. They forced her to make idiotic decisions.
Her ‘earnings’ are a bit fuzzy. She is counting a buyers agent commission on every house she bought as she represented herself. I hope she did it right and paid self employment taxes on all of it as well as the increased property taxes from overpaying to pay herself. I dont know how the MSM can keep calling these people investors when obviously theyre nothing of the sort.
I AM SO MAD……..if i made $750K+ in 3 years i’ wouldnt have a worry in the world since i would have saved at least 1/2 of that….But she filed for BK………..and guess what? she will get hired before me, because she had a job!
=================================
Pamela Khamo, 42, began a career as a real estate agent in 2002 after selling her La Mesa coffee shop. As the housing market heated up, so did her commissions. By 2005, her annual income swelled to $360,000, according to bankruptcy records.
Things started to unravel early last year. The slumping real estate market cut her income in 2007 to $180,000, bankruptcy records show
“For Francisco Zapien, the deal was too good to be true. In October of 2006, Zapien signed a contract for a home on Bryan Avenue in Napa. The $550,000 mortgage he was approved for required no down payment. Today Zapien, who has worked as a tractor driver and machinist for the past four years, is caught in a vise.”
Gimme a break. I mean, a tractor driver buying a half million dollar house! Sure, it’s not quite as rich as the strawberry picker with the $750k house, but still. How stupid is this guy? My guess is he didn’t even finish high school. Funny how our fearless leaders never allude to the accountability of these nincompoops in this whole mess. Turn in the keys, pal.
Of course he will walk away. He has no business in a house costing more than $100k given his low salary.
Hey–give him a break. I drive a tractor. Oh wait, we’re different. I paid cash for my 2006 John Deere turbo diesel. I used the cash from my Bay Area micro McCrap box and bought a farm…
Before you go throwing stones at blue-collar workers, some of them are quite skilled and out-earn their velvet-handed computer-tapping brethren. Heavy equipment operators doing serious work can easily make upwards of $100K.
Over the next few years, the San Diego County couple repeated the pattern, accumulating 17 properties in five states
is it just me, or is this economic activity a prime example of social evil?
Each “investment property” someone picks up is one less home on the market for someone who needs a place to live. It drives prices up while allowing the Landlords to just suck parasitically on actually productive people.
Fixing & flipping is arguably a social good, but I just don’t see any social good in people buying SFH stock to rent out. I truly hope they lose their ass.
“…but I just don’t see any social good in people buying SFH stock to rent out.”
Yep. Only the govt should be in the landlord business. Charge only what the tenant can afford. Tax everyone to make up the difference.
Is this comment about the govt being the landlord serious? Didn’t Russia and China try this, with unpleasant results?
There’s certainly a social benefit in owning an SFH and renting it out. I rented an SFH at one point. If it were illegal for whatever reason I could not have done so.
Sometimes this blog gets a little negative.
“Only an idiot would buy a house until the price is 100x rent and 2.5x median income. (e.g. something that has not been the case in Silicon Valley for at least 15 years)”
“Never live in an apartment complex, people stacked like rats in a maze.”
“Renting an SFH is terrible, the owner could be foreclosed and you have to move.”
Ok, what’s left? An RV?
“Investment properties” intended for rental are not the problem. If such purchases push prices up too much, then rents no longer cover costs and such investment purchases stop. Suitable rentals can and should include SFH’s.
Those that were purchasing multiple properties on the expectation of increasing prices were the problem. Those were the vermin driving prices higher with no social benefit to their actions.
“Those that were purchasing multiple properties on the expectation of increasing prices were the problem.”
This, in turn, was only made possible by crazy loans. My personal impression is that for the next act, the U.S. citizenry will be unwittingly required to all do their part to make sure that prices do not fall to a level that reflects the absence of flippers, since deflation is categorically bad.
These kind of people are the reason that middle class families have been priced out of the SD housing market for the last several years. Now the govt wants to step in and make sure that home prices stay up on the permanently high flipper plateau price level. The thought that tax monies might be allocated to this spurious purpose explains why my ears are turning red and feeling very warm at the moment.
Although there’s the desire on all levels of government to limit the decline of housing prices, I don’t expect it to be effective and I don’t expect much to be spent on it. It’s too enormous to prop up financially and it will be very difficult to increase spending for this purpose in a period with declining tax revenues and already large deficits. More likely are more efforts around the edges such as we’ve already seen. They may slow the decline some, but I don’t expect them to affect much the ultimate amount of the decline. There will remain the temptation for government to be “responsive” with the risk that measures that are not helpful and potential harmful could occur.
They have bigger fish to fry now, like trying to prop up the value of Wall Street investment banks, for instance…
The idea of $5K/yr tax credit for first 3 yrs of owner-occupancy is the most likely to stabilize the actual prices somewhat — because it would bring the ownership costs of the lower tier of housing more in line with rents for that tier. It wouldn’t tempt me to buy immediately, but it would make the subject worth revisiting from time to time.
“One scenario involves a homeowner who is ‘underwater,’ owing, for example, $700,000 on a house that she could sell for only $500,000. She wants to remain a homeowner in the same neighborhood, so she buys a comparable house down the street for $500,000 and moves into it.”
“The lender typically doesn’t care, or even know, that she’s underwater on the first house, as long as she’s current on payments.”
“After moving, she stops paying off the mortgage on the first house. The resulting foreclosure ruins her credit score for the next few years, but she doesn’t worry because she doesn’t plan to buy a house anytime soon.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Not only was financial risk sliced and diced, it also looks like knowledge followed the same path. How long has the secondary market been frozen? 7 months? With more stories like these coming out, I can’t envision it coming back for years to come. This is what BB is worried about and for good reason, the secondary market isn’t like a domestic abuse victim that willingly comes back or can’t get out of an abusive relationship. The investor money has moved on to the next thing and they aren’t shedding a tear about the breakup.
What happens when the 500k house goes for 300K a year from now and her credit is shot because of the walkaway?
She wises up and freeloads in the new house for a year. At that point her home is sold to a HBB’er at a deep discount. Mind you, it needs $70k in work, but that’s repair and doesn’t go on the tax assesment.
It took me a long time to get a full understanding of the momentum of the housing market. In the past my predictions were on too fast of a time scale due to the momentum of the market. Its not a small boat like a Boston Whaler. The house economy isn’t even as fleet as a car ferry. It is a supertanker that starts a turn long after the comand is given and will overshoot the following command. As individuals, we can change course quickly, but not the market as a whole.
Got Popcorn?
Neil
A tanker takes about three miles to make that turn…
She will just rent for a few years then buy a similar house for $225k
“‘Buyers (are) waiting for ‘the bottom,’ circling but not landing,’ wrote Karen Cherniss, with Windermere Real Estate, in an e-mail.”
Typical REIC happy-speak. Allow me to point out that you’re not a “buyer” until you’ve been approved for a loan and signed your name on the dotted line. So it’s the looky-loos (mainly) and knife-catchers that are “circling” (the drain). Us vultures, however, are sitting tight, and will be for at least the next year. When we take wing next spring, making liesurely reconaissance spirals over a landscape littered with FB carrion and knife-catchers in their final throes, such Happy Talk will have long since ceased.
Unless there’s an acceleration, I don’t think the real bargains will be around next year. There is a lot of pain left before things bottom out. I’m thinking another two or three years for the rock bottom prices.
I agree, but those of us whose spouse’s patience is not unlimited are operating off a shorter timeline. We’ve been renting since 2004, and getting my wife to agree to rent for another year was a tough sell - she wants a place of our own. So, I’ve promised that regardless of what the market is doing, we’ll buy once our lease runs out in May 2009. Not necessarily what I would choose to do, but domestic harmony counts for more than waiting for the market to hit bottom. The bottom may not be in by mid-2009, but there will be some pretty sweet deals for creditworthy buyers.
I’m in the same boat, buddy. We’ve been renting together since 2002 and she understands everything about the bubble, but there is a limit. I just hope the REIC and the FED screw the pooch even more than they have up until now and we get a steal in 12 months.
LOL! I understand Sammy. If I remember correctly, you’re in CO. Are you seeing any meaningful price declines there?
http://www.ppar.com/public/stats_public.asp
YOY declines of about 8%, but lots further to go. Greedheads are deep in denial and the local NAR shills pretty much control what gets printed in the GAZETTE (party line: It’s different here - everybody wants to live in CoS). But for my money we’ll see a capitulation before next spring - too many FBs hanging on by their fingernails and burning the furniture in the false hope of a Spring Miracle Revival. If it wasn’t for the California equity locusts and refugees still swarming in, we’d have already tanked big-time.
CoS’s big problem is that it has lost a ton of good paying jobs. HP and other techs are just shadows of their former selves, at least when it comes to local employment.
OMG Sammy and Central Guy,
Use me as an example of waiting to buy. I’ve been renting for over 32 years and I am willing to wait a few more years to buy. When I was younger I missed a few opportunities to buy (careless spending, debt, etc..). Now I’m older I can afford to buy, but refuse to pay the prices for houses. I will wait and buy a house on my terms.
Holy smokes, that’s a long time to be waiting. Why ever buy?
Yes Bantering it has been a long time, however, I do want my own house with some land. It has been a dream of mine since I was a kid and I know within a few years, I will be able to make my dream come true.
We owned our own house from 1998 to 2004 - bought shortly after we were married - and am anxious to own again, once sanity imposes itself.
Enjoy your dream! Ill make my dream true with a sub $50k house in NW Pennsylvania. When land prices drop some more, ill buy like 10 acres for like $30k and have a huge orchard
NW PA is beautiful, but the economy is dismal. People’s dream to to get hired on as a cop or at the Post Office. Plus, the local populace look like extras from THE HILLS HAVE EYES. Lots of DNA disasters running around.
I’ve rented since 1970 and have had a fabulous life - raised 2 kids, lived in all sorts of places. No worries over remodeling or maintenance unless I wanted to. Tell her to stop watching HGTV and start watching the travel channel. For the time and money you’ll put into a house, you could see the whole world in style.
I had the opposite - friends around me buying in the panic - I almost fell into the trap myself. My wife talked me OUT of taking the bait, thank god. Now we’re watching our friends sweating huge mortgages, trying to get raises out of our company (though we all make good incomes, it’s not enough) to ease their burden and spending months or more doing home improvements. Shitty contractors that didn’t finish and ditched, lawsuits, concrete in drains, crazy neighbors… that’s what we’re watching them all deal with. But, they seem pretty happy with their “tax breaks”.
You two are generous. My friends don’t see the bottom happening till sometime in 2015. But admittly if one waits till 2010-2012, the knife will be 6 feet from the ground instead of 20 feet.
I think the downward trajectory/velocity will be a lot more violent and dramatic than the upward climb was. Look at that wailing coffeeshop loser that “made her fortune” in six years and lost it in six months.
I hope so, but prices seem to be sticky in most of America save for a few percent drop. I am seeing big price drops in half of Florida and a third of California and a few towns here and there in other states.
Hopefully, we’re getting to the tipping point.
“‘Buyers (are) waiting for ‘the bottom,’ circling but not landing,’ wrote Karen Cherniss, with Windermere Real Estate, in an e-mail.”
The buyers that are waiting for the real bottom aren’t airborne nor even considering their flight plan.
Well said. Not to mention, look at today’s jumbo loan rules! The suckers no longer qualify. Prices will not be close to reasonable for the savers for 18+ months. So… ready, set, spectate!
Got Popcorn?
Neil
Let us not forget that a lot of those buyers during the peak years will simply not come back.
- Those buying multiple properties with liar loans
- Amateurs that built on spec.
The ’sold’ figure reached in 2005 will not show up again in our lifetime.
Add at least two more categories of those that won’t be buying soon:
- Those that bought near the peak that could have afforded the places they bought had those places been cheaper (as they are now becoming daily), then lose the place to foreclosure and have damaged credit limiting their ability to buy for some period of time.
- Those that are sufficiently traumatized or leery about real estate following what is now unfolding.
You may lose one-half or a whole generation of buyers for quite some time if not forever. Once this all collapses, the future of housing may be very different from what most people have experienced.
I feel we pulled a huge number of baby busters forward and now they aren’t there to buy. Add in the fact that a lot will have pitiful credit for years and you have the reality of today.
- Those that are sufficiently traumatized or leery about real estate following what is now unfolding.
Not to be underestimated. They weren’t burnt by housing, they were deep fried and then flambe’d. We’ve easily lost a half generation from the housing market.
Got Popcorn?
Neil
As a Northwest DC10 captain said once while announcing that our flight was delayed due to a tech problem, “I’d rather be on the ground wishing that I was in the air than be in the air wishing I was on the ground”.
“circling but not landing” implies that the buyers will eventually run out of fuel and crash. Totally bad analogy. If anything, it’s the buyers on the ground, waiting for the circling FB’s to run out of fuel and crash.
That was funny I laughed out loud.
Ad copy for “City in the Hills”
Do you gaze rolling hills of Mediterranean gold hills or stroll the shores of a swan-dotted lake under the cypresses?
Maybe proofreading ad copy would be good.
The Pasadena Star News. “It’s the misfortune of others that may finally give Fernando Sanchez and his family the chance, after renting here for 21 years, to own their own home.”
Misfortune???? Misfortune????? How about greed, slime-ball-ness? Scummy-ness? Fraud? Cheating? Lying? Cooking books? Falsifying information? Faking numbers?
Good for Sanchez…let’s hope he buys something nice and enjoys it with his family instead of a scum flipper or realtor who saw nothing but dollar signs.
I hope these people fry in Hell.
Interesting this statement you found
“Poway real estate appraiser Todd Lackner said he’s beginning to notice new patterns of unethical buying and selling behavior taking the place of large cases of outright fraud.”
“One scenario involves a homeowner who is ‘underwater,’ owing, for example, $700,000 on a house that she could sell for only $500,000. She wants to remain a homeowner in the same neighborhood, so she buys a comparable house down the street for $500,000 and moves into it.”
“The lender typically doesn’t care, or even know, that she’s underwater on the first house, as long as she’s current on payments.”
“After moving, she stops paying off the mortgage on the first house. The resulting foreclosure ruins her credit score for the next few years, but she doesn’t worry because she doesn’t plan to buy a house anytime soon.”
This is the same thing that some were doing in Connecticut in the early 90’s when that area went bust. Two people I knew bought a house in Bridgeport in 1987 for $187,000, it was close to north end on the main drag - when they were planning on selling it the market had dove - so they decided to rent it - one was getting married and by doing the renting thing the other could qualify for a loan on a condo for herself - the person getting married was moving into his condo.
A couple of years later they had to evict the boys and could not sell it or keep paying on it since now the one person had their own mortgage on their condo. So the prices were dropping to the point that homes on the street were selling for 40,000 to 50,000 and they had low offers but the bank would not take it. Several were boarded up.
In the meantime the married couple bought another house but only in his name because they knew she was giving her house back to the bank and did not want them to go after his money. He had enough from his condo and his salary to qualify for the new house.
Eventually the bank took her old property and they had to pay $25,000 (might have been each) to the bank. They said it was the banks fault for appraising the house so high and did not feel any guilt for sticking the bank.
So they had a plan and took steps to protect themselves. That market eventually came back years later (around 1997)
It only goes to prove that in the last year and 1/2 the lenders have not been underwriting loans very well . Wonder what % of the buyers are FB’s buying second homes and than dumping the first home . That’s why I’m saying there needs to be a purge of the entire system because the current clowns still can’t prevent fraud or prevent FB’s from playing the lenders for suckers .Next thing you know the FB’ who gamed the system will walk on the second house . When are the lenders going to learn that these victim borrowers were liar loan investors ,and part of the real estate community encourages these games .Today everybody is playing pass the loss to some one else . This is why I say purge the whole group .
“Zapien knew his monthly costs would be high, so he rented two rooms in his home. The rooms yielded an extra $1,000 a month to help pay the $3,600 monthly mortgage. But with utility bills and other expenses, Zapien said he still was scrambling to pay $2,900 a month.”
And we’re supposed to feel sorry for him? I wish the reporters would be more critical.
He’ll be a homelessZapien, soon.
LOL!!! I hope everyone made it this far in the thread to see this. Nice punnery, lad.
Lad, sheer brilliance! I doffs me lid!
““‘If the home doesn’t sell, I will have to turn it in to the bank,’ he said.””
Go ahead already!
“American Canyon”
Metaphorically perfect description of real estate anywhere, in the U.S. of A.
“Over the last six months in American Canyon, the median price has dropped from $600,000 to $400,000. But so has inventory, and that will help what has been a quiet market. Only three homes were sold in February in the south county city, according to TrendGraphix.”
“Prices haven’t dropped as dramatically here as they have in Stockton…We picture that happening in two to three months”
I love how these Realtors are finally admitting to the housing market crash only because it’s more profitable than lying, at this point.
I’ll be really surprised if the real estate business ever redeems itself within my lifetime. People are just too pissed off (or soon will be).
I’m sure that comment about how prices will be really dropping in a few months will encourage the *current* buyers to pony-up.
Or maybe lower their prices to sell and the realtors will finally get their commission.
THIS IS A MUST READ……………………
http://market-ticker.denninger.net/2008/03/articles-of-impeachment-bear-stearns.html
Thanks to Big (little) V and her husband for hosting dinner last night. It was great to meet her, Az-lender, MoleMan, and SFBayAreaQT. They are all as fun in person as on-line. We all shared our histories of how we got obsessed with this blog.
Hey there, REhobbyist!
Ditto from me, too! And I sent almost the identical words to Ben(in email), along with the picture. I’m looking forward to the next one. Perhaps more folks will come as the weather warms up. What do you think, Big V? Whenever it will be, count me in.
BayQT~
I add my thanks to those of REhobbyist. Like REh, I enjoyed Mole Man and SFBayQT and the Little V (oops, Big V) family. Too bad Mex restaurants don’t offer popcorn (neil).
Although we swapped a lot of housing stories, we also swapped our impressions of Leighsong, Hoz, Get Stucco, NYCityBoy, lainvestorgirl, and maybe others that we’ve never met. OK, so I did meet one of this last bunch.
We really need a san diego get together.
After all, we are the canaries in the coal mine.
Somehow renting has spared us.
I’m late, but thank you all for coming.
I’ll post tomorrow with a special e-dress so partygoers can send me their e-mails (if they wish). That way I can e-mail people about future parties directly. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds, and fun to meet periodically to reminisce.
Big V & partypeople et al;
I have embarrassing pics of all of you getting drunk, wearing a lampshade & goosing the servers . . .
sEnD uNmArKeD bILLs $20′S onLy nOn sEquEnTiAL. nO cOps oR tHe tRouT gEts iT !!
aqius: LOL!
We’re saved, Payday loans are here.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080324/bs_nm/usa_housing_paydayloans_dc
INteresting fact
Bill Faith, executive director of COHHIO, an umbrella group representing some 600 nonprofit agencies in Ohio, said the state is home to some 1,650 pay day loan lenders — more than all of Ohio’s McDonald’s, Burger Kings and Wendy’s fast food franchises.
“circling but not landing”
Did anyone else immediately get a mental picture of a bunch of vultures just waiting for the prey to die?
“‘If the home doesn’t sell, I will have to turn it in to the bank,’ he said.”
You were hoping to turn it into the bank (ATM), and now you will turn it in to the bank.
“Works on Contingency - No Money Down?”
That’s a misprint. It should read, “Works on Contingency? No! Money Down.” -Lionel Hutz
what u got to love about this girl is how she used her own commission and put it all back in to cover rents… clever woman,if she thought this scam imagine all the other realtors throughout the country that did this….IT WAS ALL SPECULATION.
From a tax perspective, it makes no sense. Take a commission, pay taxes on it, plug profit into rent, take a loss on it (without a new stream of income to offset the loss), try to sell property at a taxable profit…
It all seems like a tremendous amount of work on behalf of the government. As a citizen, I suppose I ought to thank her for her selfless labors.