The Unwinding Of This Housing Boom
The Boston Globe reports from Massachusetts. “More than 700 properties in Boston fell into foreclosure last year, about three-quarters of them in Dorchester, Roxbury, Hyde Park, and Mattapan. The city’s Homeowner Foreclosure Prevention Workshop workshop was one of a host of efforts the city has made in the past two years to contain the crisis. Carol Anderson,who lives in Dorchester, said she and her husband make $70,000 to $80,000 a year combined and borrowed $465,000 to purchase their home with no down payment.”
“To finance it, they agreed to two mortgages with rates of 11 percent and more than 9 percent. ‘I wanted a house,’ she said. ‘That was the best opportunity.’”
“The total monthly payments of about $3,400 were just barely affordable, she said, until one day she opened her bill and was stunned to learn that the larger loan was adjustable. Now her payments are more than $4,800 a month. This winter they kept their gas heat off and made do with electric space heaters.”
“She came to yesterday’s workshop hoping to speak with her mortgage servicer, but the company was not there. She did speak with a counselor, though. ‘I’m hoping I can get a mortgage I can pay,’ she said.”
“Two months ago, Lisa and Eric Jacobs of Brockton attended a regional seminar on how to avoid foreclosure, hoping they would soon see their way clear. Two weeks ago, they gave up.”
“Buried in debt, with a condo worth far less than what they owed in mortgages, the Jacobses figured it made more sense to let the bank foreclose. They owe $180,000 and believe their two-bedroom in Madrid Square is worth $140,000.”
“With a combined annual income of about $60,000, they figured they could afford to pay about $1,100 a month - but monthly payments on a first and second mortgage, as well as condo fees, were about $1,800 a month.”
“‘We’re in this predicament and there is no end in sight,’ Lisa Jacobs said.”
“They purchased their two-bedroom condo in 2000 for $82,000. As the value of the condo increased, as it did for most real estate in the state, the Jacobses dipped into the equity, spending money for fun. They refinanced several times through August 2004, to pay off credit card debt, until finally their mortgage debt had mushroomed to more than $100,000 and their total monthly payments had nearly doubled, to about $1,460.”
“‘It was my fault,’ said Lisa Jacobs, who had had financial problems before and had to file for bankruptcy in 2001. ‘I just bought stuff for the sake of buying.’”
“Normand Grenier, executive director of the Neighborhood Housing Services of the South Shore, said he knows a bus driver, making $10 an hour, who was qualified for a $250,000 mortgage, which the man could not possibly afford.”
“‘It’s very sad,’ he said, adding that the agency has calls from more than 300 people. ‘We try to help people, but the news we give them is very difficult.’”
“The Esplanade was supposed to be Ed Cobb’s last home. Cobb chose the over-55 complex specifically to avoid generational deja vu: teenagers outside on skateboards, late-night parties, hallway commotion, and the other sort of high-spirited chaos that comes with younger families.”
“But harsh economic realities have prompted the Esplanade’s developers to break a fundamental promise made to Cobb and dozens of his neighbors. MP Development LLC is petitioning Hudson officials to reverse the residential age restrictions so they can sell Esplanade units to anyone.”
“Cobb and dozens of other residents who bought up 90 of the 140 Hudson units, mostly at boom-market prices between $250,000 and $290,000, say they feel betrayed in what they describe as a housing bait-and-switch.”
“‘It’s like buying a car, and then two years later they come and remove the engine,’ said Cobb. ‘That’s how major it is.’”
“With more than 20,000 new over-55 units built statewide since 2000, developers in Wellesley, Holden, Hanover, Hingham, and Sharon, are saying that age restrictions, formerly a hot marketing tool, are now hampering sales.”
“The red-hot trend toward over-55 buildings worried the Citizens’ Housing and Planning Association, an affordable housing group, as far back as 2005, when an agency survey found how many senior-oriented units were online, and saw that new complexes were being permitted seemingly every week, said Aaron Gornstein, executive director of the agency.”
“‘We would not be surprised to see more developers coming forward asking for this,’ he said.”
The Rutland Herald from Vermont. “Home sales in Rutland County fell last year following a national trend driven by the subprime mortgage crisis and a weakening economy. There’s no question home prices have fallen nationwide over the past year or so and Vermont is no exception.”
“Economist and University of Vermont professor Arthur Woolf said home sales statewide will continue to decline again this year. ‘We’re basically seeing the unwinding of this housing boom that we experienced in Vermont as well as many parts of the nation,’ said Woolf.”
The Redding Pilot from Connecticut. “Even to those who have weathered economic storms before, some say the recent wave of foreclosures is something they have never witnessed. The Pilot’s sister paper, The Wilton Bulletin, recently reported 20 notices of lis pendens. The Weston Forum, also a sister paper of the Pilot, reported five lis pendens and two foreclosures since Jan. 1.”
“‘When you have this many foreclosures, we’ve got a problem; people are going under,’ said Redding resident Joan O’Neill, who owns Joan O’Neill Real Estate.”
“To put the number of foreclosures into perspective, Ms. O’Neill said when she came to Redding, there were only about a dozen houses for sale in town. ‘In the 1970s it was tough, but I have not seen it like this in all my time here,’ she said. ‘There were times when I remember paying a 22% mortgage interest; I didn’t sleep at night. But I’ve never seen anything like this ever in my career.’”
“Randi Hutton, a Redding resident and Realtor agreed. ‘I’ve been in the market for 11 years, and I have not seen this kind of fear,’ she said. ‘Banks loaned more money than they should have loaned, and they gave people higher expectations. It’s a shared responsibility.’”
The Providence Journal from Rhode Island. “In recent months, foreclosures have touched some of the most affluent communities in Rhode Island, including Barrington, East Greenwich, Jamestown, Lincoln, Little Compton, Narragansett and Newport.”
“A corporate-owned house in Tiverton is an example of the wild ride house prices have taken since the housing bubble burst. Purchased in July 2006 for $438,000…then sold it for $645,000 in November 2006, the contemporary Colonial with an in-ground pool is now on the market for $420,000.”
“Brian Marvelle, an in Providence who specializes in selling foreclosed properties, said many properties don’t even involve evictions, because the owners just stop making payments and move out before the legal process is completed.”
“‘Most of the people are just up and leaving,’ Marvelle said.”
“‘It hasn’t eased at all. It’s magnified,’ Manfredi said of the foreclosure situation in Rhode Island. ‘I’ve got better houses right now than I’ve had in a long time.’”
“No deals were made at a real estate auction yesterday. Of the 24 properties offered at the sale, 15 did not attract any bids. And all the high bids for the rest of the properties were below the reserve prices set by the sellers, according to representatives of the auctioneers.”
“Even the most luxurious house offered at the auction — a contemporary colonial in Newport, a block from Newport Harbor — failed to attract a high enough bid to secure an immediate sale. The high bid for the property was $700,000. Reserve prices were confidential, but 72 Harrison Ave. was recently listed on the market for $1.25 million.”
“Danielle Ventura, 20, of Middletown, was the high bidder for a three-bedroom, two-bath ranch in Middletown. But her bid of $200,000 also did not match the reserve price. She said she was offered a price of $290,000, but she responded, ‘no way.’”
“Builder Mark Carpenter who attended the auction… said he was interested in the land that was offered at the auction — half-acre lots in Portsmouth — but he thought the prices were too high.”
“‘Land is at a premium on Aquidneck Island,’ he said. Sellers ‘don’t want to give it away.’”
“The Rhode Island economy has slipped into recession twice over the past 20 years, most recently when the dot.com bubble burst in 2001. Back then, the housing market was soaring, and within a year the state labor market had recovered.”
“Now, the economic data suggest that Rhode Island is in another recession, and one economic forecasting firm predicts this one will last through 2009.”
“‘Right now, it looks like the recession will probably be almost as long as 1989-91 recession,’ said Andres Carbacho-Burgos, an economist for Moody’s Economy.com. ‘So, it’s going to be bad.’”
“In Rhode Island, the current recession has already cost the state close to 8,000 payroll jobs during the last 12 months — nearly twice as many jobs as were lost during the 2001 recession, state Labor Department data show.”
“The current house-price declines are shaping up to look more like the 1990s, when single-family house prices in the state fell more than 10 percent from 1990 through 1993. Prices did not begin to rise again until 1996.”
“Rhode Island’s median household income as of December was $58,000. An ‘affordable’ mortgage is generally considered one in which the monthly payment represents 25 percent to 30 percent of the borrower’s annual income. By that measure, a household at the median income could only afford a mortgage that cost $14,500 to $17,400 a year, or $1,200 to $1,450 per month.”
“‘Generally, someone at the median household income in Rhode Island is barely able to qualify for a mortgage,’ said Economy.com’s Carbacho-Burgos.”
“The lack of affordability helps explain why the state has had among the highest concentrations in the country of subprime mortgages –– and now more delinquencies –– than most other Northeast states.”
The Daily Gazette from New York. “According to a report released by the Greater Capital Association of Realtors, the sale of single-family homes regionwide in February plunged 29 percent to 431, compared with a year earlier.”
“Kelly Greco said homeowners have stopped using the equity in their homes to pay to hire Stands Under the Son to build new countertops for remodeling efforts, even if the paper value of a house has note eroded.”
“‘We had grown progressively every year. This past year was the first we didn’t grow since 2000,’ his wife Sherill said. ‘We knew how things were going at Christmastime. We’re usually really, really busy, and we weren’t.’”
Bloomberg on New York. “New York City’s residential real estate market is showing the first signs of fallout as U.S. banks and securities firms cut the most jobs in seven years.”
“Manhattan apartment sales fell in January and February from a year earlier and new properties came to the market at the fastest pace since at least 2000, according to data from real estate appraiser Miller Samuel Inc.”
“At developer Ian Schrager’s 40 Bond St., the avant-guard lofts aren’t holding their prices. The Corcoran Group recently cut the price of a three-bedroom, 2,600-square-foot apartment by about 8 percent to $5.5 million.”
“JPMorgan Chase & Co.’s planned buyout of Bear Stearns is rattling buyers and sellers now, said Gregory J. Heym, chief economist for Terra Holdings LLC. ‘The amount of uncertainty, at least as long as I’ve been following the market, is unprecedented,’ said Heym.”
“The market is changing for what Brown Harris Stevens broker John Burger calls the ‘middle luxury’ category of $3 million to $7 million apartments. Many brokers are scaling back sellers’ expectations.”
“‘In 2006 and 2007, they looked at the last 12 months’ worth of sales and priced their apartments at 10 percent more,’ Burger said. ‘Today they are sitting down with the soon-to-be listing broker and saying `Do you think we can get what they got in ‘06?’”
The Courier News from New Jersey. “The message from K. Hovnanian’s marketing department in February was almost euphoric.”
“‘We sold 100 homes in New Jersey, New York and eastern Pennsylvania on President’s weekend,’ said Doug Fenichel, the company’s chief media man. ‘And we did it with a very small incentive, offering the public the same discount we offer our employees.’”
“Sue LaRue, sales manager at Hillsborough-based Country Classics, said the company redefined its incentives at the end of February. ‘We didn’t think we needed them, but we had to offer them to stay competitive with Toll Brothers and Beazer,’ she said about the firm’s biggest competitors in Hillsborough.”
“The Hovnanian 10K report explains how the company is planning to weather the storm, by walking away from options it has on undeveloped land and redesigning its offerings to meet today’s market. In an effort to ‘right-price’ homes, the company has slashed prices on some offerings, bringing them to the builder’s cost or below, just to raise cash.”
“‘For the first time in my memory, resale homes are costing more than newly constructed ones,’ Fenichel said.’”For builders, it’s all about managing the balance sheet, and they need cash for future opportunities.’”
“Andrew Zatsko, a real estate broker in Middlesex County, has a listing relationship with two builders in South Brunswick. Charter Oak has only three homes left: the model…in the high $900,000s, and two homes…on speculation in the mid $900,000s. Zatsko said that the Charter Oak model is loaded with extras and the builder had hoped to sell it for more than $1 million.”
“‘But you have to listen to the market,’ Zatsko said. ‘And the market won’t support that price right now. Look at all the inventory out there. It’s not selling because it’s mispriced.’”
“He mentioned a buyer who wanted to buy a new home from one of his builders. ‘Sure, they’re not going to get what they would’ve gotten a couple of years ago, but they’re also getting a new home today for less than they would’ve paid a few years ago, so it evens out,’ he said. ‘The only people who are in trouble are the ones who are over-leveraged, the ones who bought in the last couple of years or the ones who used their homes as a cash cow.’”
The Times from New Jersey. “Otis Boone describes his housing problem as ‘a funny situation,’ but stories like his have become common in Mercer County. In August 2005 he and his wife moved out of Trenton and got a zero-down loan on a newly built home in Ewing Township. Boone hurt his back the following year, went on disability and saw his income cut in half.”
“Putting the place up for sale brought no offers, so last August the couple moved out of their home, which remains unoccupied, and moved into an apartment in Hamilton.”
“‘At the time when I wasn’t making the payments, something like this never happened to me before,’ said Boone. ‘I wanted to get an apartment before my credit really got bad. I don’t know where I can get the money unless I get a miracle.’”
“As years of unrealistic subprime loans collide with job losses, personal misfortune and the slumping housing market, hundreds of Mercer County residents face similar crises.”
“The number of county properties entering foreclosure hit a recent peak in January, and mortgage counselors who try to help people keep their homes say they see no end in sight.”
“‘The numbers for us continue to rise,’ said Phyllis Salowe-Kaye, executive director of New Jersey Citizen Action, whose Trenton office has been overwhelmed with homeowners seeking help. ‘We’re at overcapacity and we see nothing letting up.’”
“E. Robert Levy, executive director of the Mortgage Bankers Association of New Jersey, said the subprime market is ‘essentially dead.’ ‘What you’re going to have now is the most conservative approach to underwriting, whether it’s 20 percent down or whatever, and also watching the ability to pay,’ he said.”
“Levy also defended the subprime industry, saying that about 85 percent of its borrowers have been paying off their loans according to their terms. The others, he said, made the mistake of relying on a ‘crazy housing market’ and fell victim to a confluence of economic factors.”
“‘The whole concept was to make housing more affordable and find a way to provide loans to people who wouldn’t have been able to access the market,’ Levy said. ‘Subprime shouldn’t have been a dirty word.’”
Finally….
New York City Real Estate Market Slows as Wall Street Cuts Jobs
By Sharon L. Lynch
March 31 (Bloomberg) — New York City’s residential real estate market is showing the first signs of fallout as U.S. banks and securities firms cut the most jobs in seven years.
Manhattan apartment sales fell in January and February from a year earlier and new properties came to the market at the fastest pace since at least 2000, according to data from New York-based real estate appraiser Miller Samuel Inc. Transactions slid 6.4 percent to 3,250, while the number of condominiums, co- operatives and townhouses for sale at the end of last month climbed to 6,225, 15 percent more than at the start of the year.
Declining sales indicate that the nation’s most expensive urban property market may founder this year as Wall Street retrenches, said Miller Samuel President Jonathan Miller in an interview. Financial companies have taken at least $208 billion in asset and mortgage-related writedowns. They’ve cut 34,000 jobs in the past nine months with more to come from the takeover of Bear Stearns Cos.
“It’s very much of a concern because while the share of jobs being lost is relatively small, the income effect is large,” said Marisa Di Natale, senior economist at Moody’s Economy.com, based in West Chester, Pennsylvania. “Wall Street bonuses and salaries in particular have been propping up the Manhattan real estate market.”
Bloomberg, posted 3/31/08
Yeah, whatever. The MSM always shows up late to the party.
I’ve seen moving vans daily in my neighborhood for the last month or so.
i have not seen much softness in the market in queens ny
(except in the areas i have no interest in at all)
my lease is up 5/15/08 and i guess i will be staying another year unless i find something and my lowball is accepted
or i find a better rental which is tough as i have a 60lb dog
lots of open houses yesterday
Either renew your lease or move out of NYC into a more affordable city/state.
easier said then done
Maybe I can offer advice that will be of help. How much is your rent, what are you earning and how much would you earn elsewhere? I can do the math of salary vs. cost of living in other locations.
“I can do the math of salary vs. cost of living in other locations.” The math is not all that stands in the way of picking up and moving to Pennsylvania. We do not have to look very far for an example. You yourself are so good at math that you offer your advice to the mathafflicted; yet despite your gifts you remain in the state of Florida.
‘Levy also defended the subprime industry, saying that about 85 percent of its borrowers have been paying off their loans according to their terms. The others, he said, made the mistake of relying on a ‘crazy housing market’ and fell victim to a confluence of economic factors. The whole concept was to make housing more affordable and find a way to provide loans to people who wouldn’t have been able to access the market,’ Levy said.’
Even if this percentage is true, it is actually about the historic norm for subprime. So this level of default should have been easily seen by the industry. The fact is they made about 10 or 20 times the number of them than previous years.
And how can this guy dare to bring up the ‘affordable’ loan myth at this point? It can’t be denied that the explosion of easy loans was a huge part of the price explosion. Who was ‘relying on a crazy market?’
Yeah, FB’s are paying “according to their terms” by making a below-interest minimum payment. It just hasn’t reset yet.
IIRC, the default rate for 2005 and newer subprime home loans is 25%, which is far above the historic 14-15%.
It isn’t JUST the number of defaults. It is the loss on each one. According to Paulson and Bernanke, recovery rate is running 50% and falling. They expected to lose 20% MAX with an average closer to 10%.
Seems they didn’t realize how many loans were made with inflated appraisals, over list price, making room for huge chunks of cash-back-at-closing that they can not recover in foreclosure.
The Unwinding Of This Housing Boom…
The housing boom looks much more like an overwound watch, to me.
A badly overwound watch will never run again, because it was wound up with excessive force.
The Unwinding Of This Housing Boom…
The housing boom looks much more like an overwound watch, to me.
A badly overwound watch will never run again, because it was wound up with excessive force.
HEY! Don’t kill the market! And don’t watches wind themselves these days by the movements of their owners? Pass the kool-aid please, i’m getting thirsty…
“‘I’m hoping I can get a mortgage I can pay,’ she said.”
I think that would require a house you afford.
Correction: can afford.
‘I’m hoping I can get a mortgage I can pay,’ she said.”
80k income with a 465k mortgage? There is no mortgage she can pay. She can hold out until Dodd and crew cut it back to 200k at 2% I suppose.
80k salary on 465k note is insane
“80k salary on 465k note is insane”
those are the stories that back the “people are losing their homes” cry from politicians as they start to bail and bail.
I wish someone would point out these people don’t deserve homes because THEY CAN’T AFFORD THEM.
gamblers aren’t just found on the strip and on wall street.
The only way she can be bailed out is a big reduction of principle. If the banks start doing that, everyone who bought during the bubble will stop paying and demand the same. I highly doubt the banks can forgive millions of principles.
If banks start reducing the principle on notes signed in the last few years, I will not buy real estate until we are clearly into the next economic cycle. By then I will probably be in a position to retire early outside the US and my first house would be outside the US.
There’s no way I’m signing up for a mortgage after everybody else gets a freebie principle reduction. Where’s my free principle reduction? Screw this entire system of corruption; I’ll buy outside the US.
I know I don’t represent everybody, but damnit I will not put my life’s savings into a system that just decides - Woops! We over-screwed you guys, let’s just adjust the level of thievery so we don’t bleed you dry TOO fast. No thanks, I am not playing.
NOVA, what’s new is the principal reduction. The principle reduction has been going on for many years!
I don’t know if that was a typo or intentional doublespeak, but I agree with it anyway. The economy is dead. Long live the economy!
I too have thoughts of leaving America, but seeing that the bubble was global, what’s to say there won’t be corruption in many other countries?
The only thing we can do is catch the next house bubble(or some other bubble) early on and capitalize. The bailouts will just cause people to lack responsability. When you can’t fight it, join. Sell at or near the peak and pocket a fortune and laugh all the way to the bank.
I remember the beanie baby bubble. The smart people sold at the peak and made tens of thousands selling worthless bean bags. To this day I see ebay auction after auction of people selling their collection for pennies on the dollar. They missed out big time, probably lost a fortune too.
I hear you guys. Leaving the USA is high on my priority list. With so many great places to choose from, why live in a 3rd world country? No thanks.
“There’s no way I’m signing up for a mortgage after everybody else gets a freebie principle reduction. Where’s my free principle reduction?”
Yeah!
“…I will not put my life’s savings into a system that just decides - Woops! We over-screwed you guys, let’s just adjust the level of thievery so we don’t bleed you dry TOO fast.”
Yes. Yay. Hooray. Beautifully said.
Before you get all carried away with wanting to leave the US, I suggest you watch the 2005 documentary “Excellent Cadavers” about the mafia in Sicily. I sometimes think about pulling the plug and moving to Europe, and this doc was pretty eye-opening. Organized crime blowing up entire city blocks to kill law enforcement officials actually trying to do their jobs - and this was only a few years ago. Amazing. The corrupt government refused to do anything until people were rioting in the streets. The subsequent crackdown only lasted a few years. At the end, the statistic is dropped that something like 80 percent of businesses in Italy pay protection money. It actually made me quite glad that I lived in America. I know we have organized crime in this country but nothing of this scale or depth of corruption.
This is common in many other countries as well, in Japan many businesses pay protection money to local mobsters also. It’s just part of life in many places in the world.
Yes, it is corrupt here, but the corruption is financial and though evil usually doesn’t involve mass murder on our own streets. Just a little sumthin’ to make you see that it ain’t ALL bad here in the good ol’ US of A…
I have my eye on a new Ferrari, goes for about 250K. I’m hoping that I can get a loan I can pay, payments something around 350/mon. would good for me. Unless the dealer is greedy, I’m sure some deal can be worked out.
Just kindly remind the dealership of your Constitutional right to drive the best car possible - and they’ll probably snap to.
Hows this, we get you a loan where you only have to pay a fraction of the interest? In a year the payments will quickly become unaffordable, but you get to drive the Ferrari for a year so who cares right?
Maybe, if you can’t make your payments, you can arrange for a reduction in principal.
That was my favorite line from the article. I was immediately thinking - “why didn’t you either continue renting or move the the midwest where you might be able to afford something?”
I know we are not supposed to take pleasure in the misery of others, but really, read this:
http://money.cnn.com/2008/03/31/news/economy/copes/index.htm?cnn=yes
These people are the poster children for this disasterous mess and I don’t care who knows it: I couldn’t be more thrilled for them. They epitomize Orange County to me. I could just keep re-reading this article, it will never get old for me.
2nd paragraph…..didnt have to look far today….
“To finance it, they agreed to two mortgages with rates of 11 percent and more than 9 percent. ‘I wanted a house,’ she said. ‘That was the BEST opportunity.’”
“You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means” Inigo Montoya, Princess Bride
She must have talked to “Suzanne” who researched it. You know, I’ve been noticing that most of the quotes from these articles are coming from the wives and most of the times it is quoted “I” not “we”.
Unreality on the sellers side as well:
“Danielle Ventura, 20, of Middletown, was the high bidder for a three-bedroom, two-bath ranch in Middletown. But her bid of $200,000 also did not match the reserve price. She said she was offered a price of $290,000, but she responded, ‘no way.’”
Danielle, 20 years old, please go slap the woman in Boston.
You go girl.
She is still stupid for bidding $200k on a house worth half that. What 20 year old can afford it? I am 26 and $50k maximum is my limit unless I win the lottery. That’s the truth that $50k is a middle class house.
Whoah. Without seeing the places or knowing her situation, it’s tough to really make that kind of judgement. A lot of times, Mom and Dad are lurking out there for people that young.
That said, if she is anything like most 20 year olds, she should not be anywhere near such a commitment.
I just like the fact that she told the jerks, “no way”. I like that attitude.
She gets credit for saying “no way” but still needs to do her research so she won’t catch a falling knife. My dad offered to help me “afford” a $200k to $300k house in Palm Beach County. I said no way, I can get a $50k house in NW Pennsylvania. Those houses will be under $100k in Palm Beach County oneday.
re: what 20 year old can afford it?
I had just turned 21 when I graduated from college. My first year working I grossed just shy of $100K. Don’t assume young = broke.
As for a $50K house…good luck with that. Yes I know they exist. But $250 a month apartments also exist. And personally I want nothing to do with either.
That woman in Boston made my head practically spin off my neck — she and her hubby make 60K to 70K (each or together, it doesn’t f’ing matter, they still couldn’t afford that loan) and they take out a mortgage for 450K with no down payment because poor widdle woman wanted a housey and that was “the best deal out there” — WTF???? Oh, and she’s whining because she wants to get into “a mortgage I can afford” –excuse me but is there some f’ing reason you didn’t think about that BEFORE THIS???? Jeebus Crispus!!!
The couple from Brockton made my BP raise. They walk from their house, but get to keep all the toys they bought from their constant refi’s.
Your pain is felt. No down payment kills me. If you are a lender, and the people asking for a loan are renters who have not been able to save 1 penny, how the heck are they going to make mortgage payments with upkeep and taxes…
Isn’t the fact that they have saved nothing extremely telling about their ability to pay?
Isn’t the fact that they have saved nothing extremely telling about their ability to pay?
Yes, but that’s the real beauty of “securitization” then new form of BANK FRAUD, or stealing, if you prefer. The lenders don’t care if you can or will re-pay the loan. It’s all about the flip. New loan, NEW FEES. More money for the lender who passes the loan documents to a Wall Street brokerage house, who mixes the loans with a bunch of other loans that probably won’t be repaid, and then the ratings agencies stamp “AAA” on the package to sell it to your Retirement Fund. Oh, and I almost forgot, the Brokers and the ratings agencies all got a cut of the action, too.
So now, our Secretary of the Treasury (contemptable crook) who should have been overseeing all this crap go down, is proposing more POWER by the Federal Reserve Bank (private bank), to control our economy. This is perfect. The robbing of America by Banksters and the tacit approval of our Government. Its almost unimaginable.
We need a revolution now.
What she failed to realize was that the “best deal out there,” was renting.
Somebody please explain how a couple making $70-80K a year Combined can make a statement like this…
“The total monthly payments of about $3,400 were just barely affordable”.
I would imagine that a couple making that would be able to afford about $1,500 maximum.
Everything else was on the credit card with minimum payment, Bay-bee!
Doncha know that real estate only goes up, and soon they would be mega-millionaires sipping champagne at breakfast and partying it up with George Clooney at Lake Cuomo?
give me a break. They could pay 2K - 2200 without a problem if there is no credit card debt, kid expenses or excessive car payments.
My wife and I did a budget for the sake of knowing what we were spending every month. We make quite a bit of money so we never had to budget but we always put in a big chunk into savings every month.
Well anyways, With Rent ($1900), One low car payment, Cell phone bills, utlities, insurance, private school (not much) payments, memberships,etc totalled $5K every month. This is not including entertainment, Food, Gas.
So we spend 60K net (not including gas, food, and entertainment) every year. These guys make 70-80K Gross. What made them think $3400 is affordable. They must not eat! What kind of life is that!
I’m guessing 70K/yr = 23K in state and federal taxes + 24K/yr in usual living expenses + 23K in mortgage pmts would be about 2000/month maximum.
Maybe they thought real estate only goes up and figured they could keep HELOCing. Buying at the peak was their mistake. Fools like those is the reason why I have to wait it out in NW Pennsylvania for several years till prices drop back to $50k in many other locations.
Buying at the peak was their mistake.
Their mistake was buying a house they couldn’t afford.
I prefer to say that they agreed to pay a price that they could not afford. It’s perfectly possible that they could have afforded that house pre- or post- bubble. People don’t buy houses every day, and they don’t get 30 year financing every day. I have sympathy for those who don’t have a firm grasp of the purchase price that they can afford. I don’t have sympathy for those who can’t figure out how much they can pay each month. And I don’t have sympathy for those who thought that they could perpetually refinance at the teaser rate.
“until one day she opened her bill and was stunned to learn that the larger loan was adjustable”
So much of a rush to buy that you couldn’t read the mortgage contract. Read it now, jerk. If the adjustability is not clear on the face of it, you can probably get Dodd’s boys to provide you with free legal counsel.
I don’t have the precise number handy, but I remember an article from the Boston Globe within the last couple of years that stated the percentage of Boston-area households that spend more than 45% (yes, forty-five) percent of their before- tax (!) income on mortgage payments. It was an astounding number, something like 25 or even 30% of households did.
My jaw hit the floor. I rented then (and still do) and tend to have a low opinion of the IQ level of the average Joe and Jane Public, but this was more absurd than even my darkest, most misanthropic nightmares.
As stated above, I’m sure most of these people were jacking up their credit card balances like there was no tomorrow. Yet it goes to show you the depth of the collective insanity around here (Boston) when people commit that much of their income solely to shelter, at the expense of virtually anything else (food, health care, education, everything) except perhaps what can be foisted off on the never-ending funny-money we-don’t-have-to-pay-this-back-do-we credit cards.
“Danielle Ventura, 20, of Middletown, was the high bidder for a three-bedroom, two-bath ranch in Middletown. But her bid of $200,000 also did not match the reserve price. She said she was offered a price of $290,000, but she responded, ‘no way.’”
Great, the young woman stuck to her budget and didn’t catch the falling knife. Perhaps there’s hope that she won’t turn into an idiot once she marries and starts breeding.
My thought exactly. ByeFL might have thought it was a bargain at 290k..
You must be kidding. Do you even read my posts? I always talk about $50k houses. $200k might be a bargain if you are rich and looking for some 4000-5000 square foot mcmansion.
That 130 acres of land you got for $3500 is a bargin if you aren’t pulling our legs or trying to get us rilled up. It sounds neigh impossible considering it’s $500/acre for arctic land in north Alaska!
20. Give me a freaking break. I wouldn’t lend a 20 year old a nickel much less 200K.
The banks can’t discriminate based on age. That person could be 18 or 81 and as long as qualification is met under current lending standards, the loan proceeds.
Saw “My First House” yesterday when some 20-something skank in Vegas with apparently a second grade education secured $170k in financing. She made numerous references to “the mortgage guy” (mortgage broker), KNEW she could buy a house because her 20-something skank best friend bought one, and failed to understand what a “fixed mortgage” is let alone anything more exotic. The “background” pieces, where they follow the buyer around with a camera, illustrated that the skank is either happily alcoholic or will soon be there. She got 100% financing and immediately bought $5000 in furniture on a credit card. I’m pretty confident that she would not have gotten the financing had she bought the furniture (and the $5k debt) first.
I don’t know how old this episode was, but when an asteroid hits Earth killing everyone, I really, really hope it hits in Las Vegas.
LOL - TLC had a marathon day of “My First House” yesterday!
I also saw that one with the bimbo trying to buy a house, straight out of home.
I eventually had to stop watching, as my husband was getting disturbed by me shouting:
“RENT, YOU ABSOLOUTE, TOTAL, MINGIN’ SLAPPER.
WHY DONT YOU MOVE IN WITH YOUR DOXY FRIEND IF YOU WANT ‘FREEDOM, SHE”S ALREADY “BOUGHT”!!!
RENT A ROOM FORM HER IF SHE”S SUCH A GOOD MATE’!!!”
at the TV every 30 seconds.
Seriously, I fear for the United States if that’s the kind of people the younger generation is composed of.
Oh, and the endless mantra by all the other poor saps about how nice the granite and stainless steel durables were.
Have you ever tried to clean stainless steel?
Have you actually ever cleaned you own house before?
Tell me how “nice” those SS things are after you’ve a) cooked on them or b) opened the fridge door a few times with pizza dough on your hands…
Oh, and lets not go to the Byzantine ‘loan arrangements’ some of them fell for.
Why would anyone have pizza dough on their hands? Duh, pizza dough is already cooked when you take it out of the box.
You’re not suggesting that someone actually COOK in their gourmet kitchen? My god, what a mess that would make! No no, a gourmet kitchen is nothing but a status symbol. You wouldn’t actually take your Porsche Cayenne on a gravel road would you? Ha! I laugh at the thought!
Oh my, just kidding/serious. I’m no historian, but I think class warfare has never been so kitsch.
I think granite and stainless is going to be the the equivalent of the avocado appliances from the 80s. All of these places are going to look very dated soon. If you look through listings in Boston you’ll see that same kitchen everywhere.
The other thing that sucks is that stainless used to mean that it was a high-performing or industrial-grade appliance. Now you can buy a cheap fridge or stove with that surface treatment. Contractors are now throwing in granite countertops and cheap appliances and jacking up the prices (err, were…).
RE: She got 100% financing and immediately bought $5000 in furniture on a credit card.
Exactly why the talk of government homeowner bail-outs is a total crock o crap.
You think the government is smart enough to know this? People should email the politicans those facts, like that $5k debt after buying the house.
Oh they know. They know.
“Saw “My First House” yesterday when some 20-something skank in Vegas with apparently a second grade education secured $170k in financing.”
Lots of Vegas strippers and hookers buy homes, so this doesn’t surprise me. The smarter ones pay off their mortgages before gravity and age keeps them from working anymore.
“In Rhode Island, the current recession has already cost the state close to 8,000 payroll jobs during the last 12 months — nearly twice as many jobs as were lost during the 2001 recession, state Labor Department data show.”
I find it interesting that they are calling it a recession in Rhode Island, even though the federal government still “isn’t sure” we are in a recession yet.
If it isn’t a recession, how can it be worse than the one in 2001?
federal government still “isn’t sure” we are in a recession yet ??
Thats because the Fed’s (Goverment Jobs) are NEVER in recession…
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>>“‘It was my fault,’ said Lisa Jacobs, who had had financial problems before and had to file for bankruptcy in 2001. ‘I just bought stuff for the sake of buying.’”
“The Jacobses dipped into the equity, spending money for fun…a bus driver, making $10 an hour, who was qualified for a $250,000 mortgage, which the man could not possibly afford…It’s very sad.’”
At some point, people are going to say that far from being victims the HELOCers has the party of their lives and got to stiff other people for the bill.
These people aren’t the equivalent of people being forclosed on due to job loss or health problems. They are the equivalent of lottery winners who blow all their money in four years of high living and end up back where they started. Except they didn’t pay for the ticket.
I think the government will portray them as “victims” as an excuse to bail out the banks from their ill-advised loans.
“They are the equivalent of lottery winners who blow all their money in four years of high living and end up back where they started.”
– that’s a money quote.
We got an offer to refi our condo in MA from Washington Mutual today. (We’re 10 years into a 30-year mortgage @ 5.5 percent, fixed.) Their incredibly attractive offer was to give us $30K in cash (”It’s like finding money you didn’t know you had! Let your home pay you!”) and a new mortgage with a rate of–hold onto your hats, folks–7.6 percent. Our monthly payment would go up $300. You don’t have to be a PhD from Caltech to do the math: $300/month x 12 months = $3600 x 30 years = $108,000. So, to borrow $30K, you would pay WaMu $78K in interest. What a deal! Would anyone really be stupid enough to do this?
BTW their estimate of the value of our condo was the Zestimate minus $298, so the number would be uneven (ergo: look real), an old marketing trick.
wow 78k to borrow 30k what a deal!!
30k is a h3 hummer go for it you earned it
but that’s only the FUTURE VALUE! lolo
Good for her. Self-awareness is one of the traits that i am beginning to really appreciate.
It will help her recover sooner from this situation.
I actually find this pair farily contemptible. They’re only $700 under what they theoretically could afford to pay? Is neither able to work a second part time job to make up the shortfall? No, it’s much easier to just walk away and then try “repairing your credit” so you can go in and do the same dumb things again.
I think people like this should be shut out from any property ownership for 10 years.
Agreed- with no kids, why can’t they work longer hours? What else are they spending money on that they can’t do without.?
They probably have huge car payments that they need to make to keep employed, pay three times as much for gasoline than they expected, and don’t know how to cook. Since a nice rental will cost not much less than their adjusted mortgage, they have more serious problems than an unsuitable mortgage.
I know a guy who worked 3 jobs a few years ago to keep above water. He was a CPA undergoing a expensive and nasty divorce. One of those three jobs was a checker job at a supermarket for $6 per hour. Now, several years later, he just got a $400K bonus for being CFO of an insurance company. I believe the work ethic pays eventually. Funny statement coming from me who would do damn near anything to avoid honest employment but I know you know what I’m talking about.
BTW, this guy has a safe in his office full of physical gold and platinum
I knew a guy in the 80s (the last time gold was at $800) who had a safe put in his basement “full of silver” then at $50 an ounce.
Came home, robbed at gun point. No more silver. Smart guy too. Never caught the well informed crooks. Its funny how word gets out about these kinds of things…..
Somewhat concur. It would be good that they understand their obligations and execute on them.
At least they are not blaming the govt or the banks and playing the victim game.
Bob- Add self responsibility to self awareness and you have the start of being an adult. Who raised these people?
I saw Lisa pushing a cart full of useless junk at TJ Maxx yesterday…
Okay, so Bush is proposing now that the banks reduce the principal on these underwater loans, including situations where folks sucked out their phantom equity and bought crap! I have some equity left, since we put down 30%, but do I get the principal on my loan reduced too? Per today’s CNBC editorial: “Forcing lenders to forgive principal is essentially asking them to let borrowers steal.”
http://www.cnbc.com/id/23882856
Carol Anderson,who lives in Dorchester, said she and her husband make $70,000 to $80,000 a year combined and borrowed $465,000 to purchase their home with no down payment.”
“To finance it, they agreed to two mortgages with rates of 11 percent and more than 9 percent. ‘I wanted a house,’ she said. ‘That was the best opportunity.’”
Carol, now best opportunity. Walk away from this one. Rent and save for 2 years. Buy back same house in 2 years for $200K.
“‘It was my fault,’ said Lisa Jacobs, who had had financial problems before and had to file for bankruptcy in 2001. ‘I just bought stuff for the sake of buying.’”
Same could be said for most of the people in this country. As opposed to this chick that finally admits it, most people are still in Egypt about it (in Da’ Nile).
I disagree. Most people wouldn’t buy so much that they risk losing their home or having to file bankruptcy…twice in 7 years?
I blame the bank for giving her a 100K HELOC after the first bankruptcy…burn me once shame on you, burn me twice shame on ME.
An anagram of “denial” is “denali”. Interesting in that that is both a “package” name for GMC
SUVs and the name of a national park in Alaska, the same state where for thirty years there has been pressure to drill for oil in another park - the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR) - to help fuel those SUVs.
Ah, the cosmic synchronicity of life….
My G/F and I do not buy anything with credit if we can not afford cash we do not need it. We have paid off our house and live on SSI so we know just how to spend and save.
“The red-hot trend toward over-55 buildings worried the Citizens’ Housing and Planning Association, an affordable housing group, as far back as 2005, …’
Maybe this topic has been covered here and I missed it, but isn’t restricting residency to the 55+ set ageist? If I advertised a job and said ‘No oldsters need apply’ I would expect to get sued in about 2 seconds. What if I want to live amongst older people, because I enjoy whittling little wooden bunnies while sitting on the porch in suspenders, why shouldn’t I get to if I want to?
In PA the over 55 communities have to set aside a certain amt. of units to the under 55 set.
Separate but equal, huh?
Because my taxes are certainly acceptable and not age-restricted when they go to pay oldster SS and Medicare benefits, so they can afford the Viagra and Rogaine and canes and other old-people essentials, but my AGE is a possible restriction in residing where I choose?
My fantasy bumper-sticker is “Hey, granny, buy your own damn drugs!”
There are age-restricted communities all over Florida. My brother-in-law lives in one. They even restrict the number of days you can have your children and grandchildren come and visit!
“There are age-restricted communities all over Florida. …They even restrict the number of days you can have your children and grandchildren come and visit!”
Oh, man, I LOVE this! In our last neighborhood, every third resident was letting their worthless children move in with a passel of yard apes. There should be more childfree zones in every state.
But, no, I don’t agree w/gov’t subsidies for over 55 communities.
My understanding is that the “over 55″ places get certain tax breaks or subsidies. As with SS and Medicare, it’s a sop to seniors. (I’m allowed to say that since I’m over 60.)
I think you’re allowed to say, period.
That’s what free speech means, and last time I checked it was a good thing.
Arguing it cogently with reason is just the icing on the cake.
According to federal fair housing rules, age discrimination in housing is illegal but housing limited to those age 55 and over is exempt.
Here’s some more on the Boston help story:
Details on today’s victims featured in the Boston Globe:
Ms. Brown bought her home for 99k as a foreclosure in 1998 using a 96k mortgage, great, a place to live with a payment she could afford. Unfortunately it doesn’t end there, it never does. She continually pulls out free, unearned, fun money using the usual suspects; Freemont, Ameriquest and Countrywide. In 2006 she refinances with countrywide agreeing to a 320k mortgage with an initial 2,337 dollar monthly payment. With a stated income of 40k three quarters of her yearly income was required for the mortgage payment alone.
Mrs Delacruz purchased her Hyde Park home in 2005 with no money down and grabs a quick 50k cash a year later by refinancing.
Mrs Anderson with the help of loose lenders and Wall Street gets a home she has no way of paying for, because and I quote “I wanted a house”, and why not it’s the right of every American to own a home whether they can afford it or not.
Fear not folks, with your tax dollars and the leadership of John Kerry these people will not suffer, prices will not fall, and you will never own a home….
“Senator John F. Kerry, who dropped by yesterday’s forum, said he was working to secure $10 billion for states to use to help first-time home buyers and prevent foreclosures”
“Senator John F. Kerry, who dropped by yesterday’s forum, said he was working to secure $10 billion for states to use to help first-time home buyers and prevent foreclosures”
This is the first time I have heard of a politician who actually wants to help first-time homebuyers. If he was really serious, he would let the prices go back down to historic levels, or raise wages.
I suspect his bailout money will not do either.
I hope the FEDS don’t lend him a single dollar.
I don’t think this is a good idea, but it is very hard to have contempt for people that are trying to help other people. I save all my contempt for the assholes that helped create this mess in the first place. And that list includes Bush, Greenspan, Wall Street, Mortgage Companies, Regulators (that didn’t do there job because they were blinded by ideology), etc.
People like John Kerry are WAY DOWN on the list.
the local affordable housing people are complaining because Missoula County was put on the declining market list by AIG, meaning - buyers need aa 3% down payment now! Oh the humanity.
Carol Anderson,who lives in Dorchester, said she and her husband make $70,000 to $80,000 a year combined and borrowed $465,000 to purchase their home with no down payment. To finance it, they agreed to two mortgages with rates of 11 percent and more than 9 percent. ‘I wanted a house,’ she said. ‘That was the best opportunity…’ Now her payments are more than $4,800 a month. ‘I’m hoping I can get a mortgage I can pay,’ she said.”
Oh, you can get a mortgage you can pay - just sell your house and buy another one that only costs $210,000.
Carol Anderson,who lives in Dorchester, said she and her husband make $70,000 to $80,000 a year combined and borrowed $465,000 to purchase their home with no down payment.”
“To finance it, they agreed to two mortgages with rates of 11 percent and more than 9 percent. ‘I wanted a house,’ she said. ‘That was the best opportunity.’”
And I want a house too. But the house I am buying is actually affordable for me at $50k(or less) I can’t touch those $200k to $400k houses till they drop enough, say $100k. I will be saving up and waiting…
Around the time marketers began branding housing developments with all those asinine sounding names was around the time housing shoppers should have gotten suspicious. Attempting to link exclusivity with motor vehicle names smacks of superficiality to me, and one must wonder if it doesn’t attract superficial people into same developments?
Housing Bottom Calls are Premature
http://www.minyanville.com/articles/MER-MBI-abk-tol-kbh-len/index/a/16481
Great link - thanks. From the site:
Remove sharp objects from your vicinity before you read it.
Ha - avert eyes before tipping liquid to face!
Leigh
es.pla.nade “A flat open stretch of pavement or grass, esp. one designed as a promenade along a shore.”
Dumb name for a car. Dumber name for a housing development of McMansion’s stacked side by side far from any shore, although if the development land remains a flat, open stretch of pavement/grass because the project goes belly up, maybe it is apropos after all.
Dumb name for a car.
Hey, cool. See my comment above.
“Comment by Molly
2008-03-31 07:42:55
Reading your posts, Bye, one would think that NW PA is Heaven on Earth. No crime, low taxes. Cool summers and warm winters. And pretty dancing fairies to pick up dog poop and wash cars.”
Theres a few other good locations but none with hosing as cheap(yet) don’t buy there or youll catch a falling knife.
‘The only people who are in trouble are the ones who are over-leveraged, the ones who bought in the last couple of years or the ones who used their homes as a cash cow.’
And how many people is that?
Thanks exeter for the reply. Next time I visit NW PA with intent to buy, I will check the local classifieds and word of mouth(FSBO?) how did you find yours? If it wasn’t advertized anywhere, that was a bad move on the seller because he could have gotten far, far, far more $ for the farmland if he advertized and more people knew about it. I would like to know more details about your secret. That is a deal of the century!
I did talk to a friend of mine who lives in West Virgina and he says you can get rolling hill rural land without mineral rights for $500/acre if you are lucky and negotiate hard. Most land is over $1000/acre which he says is still cheap.
How much cheaper will rural farm land be in a few years? Is farm land considered bubbly or not?
Hey Bye -
Rest easy there, buddy, as exeter’s deal was not a “normal” thing for Vermont, especially given the general area in which he made the purchase. It’s very possible he got a sweetheart deal through a relative connection or a friend.
There were plenty of people at the auction with 3 plots, house full of junk, a few down cripple cows, an old Mccormick row cropper etc etc. The 50 acre plot with the house and crappy old barn sold for 40-50k. I don’t remember exactly. The second plot was the one I own now and the 3rd didn’t sell at all and I have no clue as to it’s status.
RE: “But harsh economic realities have prompted the Esplanade’s developers to break a fundamental promise made to Cobb and dozens of his neighbors. MP Development LLC is petitioning Hudson officials to reverse the residential age restrictions so they can sell Esplanade units to anyone.”
“Cobb and dozens of other residents who bought up 90 of the 140 Hudson units, mostly at boom-market prices between $250,000 and $290,000, say they feel betrayed in what they describe as a housing bait-and-switch.”
It’s more than bait and switch, honey.
It’s the flushing of contractual law.
From Drudge:
Nordic Style Nationalization:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/03/31/cnfed131.xml
While the responses varied in each Nordic country, there a was major effort to avoid the sort of “moral hazard” that has bedevilled efforts by the Fed and the Bank of England in trying to stabilise their banking systems.
Norway ensured that shareholders of insolvent lenders received nothing and the senior management was entirely purged. Two of the country’s top four banks - Christiania Bank and Fokus - were seized by force majeure.
“We were determined not to get caught in the game we’ve seen with Bear Stearns where shareholders make money out of the rescue,” said one Norwegian adviser.
“The law was amended so that we could take 100pc control of any bank where its equity had fallen below zero. Shareholders were left with nothing. It was very controversial,” he said.
Purging Mozillio….NAH no way……Give back his $10 mill bonus….
What happened to GOLD? Ouch!!!!
Senator John F. Kerry, who dropped by yesterday’s forum, said he was working to secure $10 billion for states to use to help first-time home buyers and prevent foreclosures”
How about if Sen Kerry use his own personal fortune (I understand he is worth more than $1 billion) to help out these A$$hole FBers. Leave the public coffers alone. “It is not the role of the government to bail out people” paraphrase of McCain.
Here is the most important thing to remember about this entire mess. Americans will forget about the whole thing soon enough, and before we know it these idiots will be speculating on something else, learning NOTHING from the experience.
Why are any other people different? Do Italians plan better?
I thought someone would catch my gaffe. Guess not. Esplanade ain’t “Escalade”. I still stand by remark about asinine housing development names though. (~:
Why are some subdivisions crashing and others staying flat or still increasing? Does it have to do with the fundamental economic indicators of a particular region?
“To finance it, they agreed to two mortgages with rates of 11 percent and more than 9 percent. ‘I wanted a house,’ she said. ‘That was the best opportunity.’”
I WANT I WANT I WANT I WANT I WANT…WAH WAH WAH WAH….STFU already!!
“Senate Banking Committee Chairman Christopher Dodd said in an appearance on CBS’ ‘Early Show’ that it was not a failure of the regulatory scheme but ‘a failure of leadership’ that led to the current crisis.”
What we have here is a failure of common sense, not of leadership……People followed the leader, right over the edge and into the abyss of debt. Just like the people in the past who thought tulips, Beany Babies and .com was the new way to make wealth. A house is a CONSUMABLE asset requiring constant infusion of cash to maintain and operate……it isn’t gold…sorry to the ill informed for popping your bubble…..POP!
Senator Dodd is among the same leadership who for whatever reason don’t believe people should be held accountable for their poor decisions but instead should be placed in the care of the government to “help” them because they are victims.
Geez….what a bunch of losers we have running our country…we deserve what we get because we need to be held accountable for our poor decisions in picking our leadership.
I am amused by the musings over moving abroad. I have been an expat for about twenty years and am now thinking about moving back to the US in a year or so when house prices have dropped another twenty to thirty percent on average. With my savings (yes, I have become so unamerican that I actually saved money over the years), I can buy a huge house for about one-third of what it would have cost me just eighteen months ago.
The lunatic ravings of one blogger talking about security in Europe are also amusing. The power of the Mafia is limited in Italy; perhaps you were watching a show about Palermo in the eighties? True, Moscow is dicey, but what about Detroit? Or DC? Or Atlanta? What will happen to Manhattan in two years when they start cutting police and firefighter jobs because of budget constraints. Your world view is typical of Americans and explains much about US foreign policy. Is your real name George Bush?
Frankly, I would be more worried about protecting my basic civil rights in a country where you can be arrested, tortured, and imprisoned without trial. Where the government spies on your mail, your computer, and your phone without warrants. Where the military and industry work hand in hand without competition to line the pockets of the elite. Those kind of countries are the ones where you need to be worried. Places like Russia, South Korea, Singapore, and America.
As a final note on the the RE bubble, a column I read dedicated two-thirds of its length to castigating Greenspan for inflating three bubbles and finished by suggesting that the solution to the present “crisis” was to pump trillions into the economy to get consumers spending again. Whoops, bubble number four!
So where have you been living all these years & what makes the place(s) desirable?
A few countries in Europe and Asia. Security was good. Food was good. Broad-minded, educated, and well-travelled citizens were a joy. Lives centered on family, friends and fun were a great change from American greed, television and consumption.
And before the usual morons jump me, “Yes, crime exists abroad. Yes, poverty exists abroad. yes, yes, yes, it’s not all perfect. but if you got off your fat asses and actually visited a foreign land, you would understand more about yourself and them.” Or you could keep stuffing Cheez Doodles in your face and learn about them damn ferriners from Fox News.
Seriously! Eddicate us, please - where is a place of safety? I reckon you likely became an expat for better reasons than the ones which are shaping my thinking. To wit: I have worked hard all my life and raised three children who are now thankfully educated, sane and self-sustaining. In a few more years it will be my turn, and I want some peace and quiet.
Where, as an expat, do I go to attain a loose community of kindred spirit (independent, but still liking a good conversation every so often), with enough land for a couple of dogs, a couple of cows and a mule, a woodlot, some kind of orchard, a subsistence garden, my own water source, an earth bermed house, and energy independence? I suspect a collapse is coming, and I want no part of the madness.
Not really looking to entertain suspicion, hostility and resentment at that point in my life.
Where do people such as myself go?
The argument for staying is philosophical. The devil you know is better than the devil you don’t know. In this country I speak the language. There is a long tradition of toleration for crusty old women with .22s in the pantry. Amazon delivers. And so forth.
Where in the greater world would I look to establish my place of sanctuary, without being perceived as an easy target?
Thanks sincerely for your thoughts.