The Housing Bubble

Don’t flip me bro!

Extreme makeover. Get rid of all of them Sen haters

The Real House Liars of D.C. County

So You Think You’re Smarter Than A Fifth-Term Congressman?

Hell’s Kongress

Designed To Sell-Out

sorry…had to pile on….

NOD: Miami

How about we send Mike Rowe out to do a “Dirty Jobs” episode in the US Senate chambers?

I think a big part of the reason growth isn’t negative, assuming it isn’t already, is that the official inflation numbers understate the real inflation hence inflating the growth numbers. I agree with your concern that we may now be seeing an even greater shift of wealth from everyone else to those at the very top.

Psssst—-hey buddy, wanna buy a hard to value security.

These people are so shady.

If the population starts going negative (in striking distance in the US, even with illegal invasion), perhaps sustained negative growth might even be a (gasp) possibility. I imagine technological improvements can only go so far (particularly if there are greatly reduced numbers of local technologists.)

Al,

When a “rich” person gets plastic surgery:

1. A doctor is paid. He/she takes that money and does one of two things. Buys a product or service, which means someone else gets a job. Or he/she invests the money, meaning someone else borrows it and buys a good/service with it.

2. The doctor pays nurses. I think we can all agree nurses are not part of the “rich”.

3. The fake boobs are bought. A factory worker making fake boobs has work.

4. The fake boobs are transported meaning a truck driver has work.

The last time this “screw the rich” logic was used it almost killed the US boating industry. You see only “rich” people buy boats. So in bad times, what better way to punish the rich than imposing new taxes on boats. Only problem with that is even the rich will say screw that and not buy boats. When that happens boat manufacturers go under and fire their “non-rich” employees.

I have asked this question many times and have never got a positive response: have you ever, or do you know of anyone who has ever worked for a poor man? The answer of course is no. Poor people do not create jobs. Poor people do not pay taxes. Unless you’re self-employed or a govt employee, a “rich” person is paying your salary.

As for automated widgets, what do you propose we do, go back to the days of hand assembly?

Manny, you can polish that Supply-Side, Trickle Down Turd until you’re dripping with sweat, it won’t change its gooey manure essence.

I don’t think it is supply side or trickle down to acknowledge the obvious fact that wealthy people have the capability to create jobs and poor people do not.

Why can’t the boats be built with automation systems? CNC, robotz, laser cutters…

I thought most of the people worked for the Gov’t…

Manny,

A bit of agreement and alot of disagreement.

I’m not saying that we should go back to hand assembly for manufacturing, it’s just that the contribution to GDP doesn’t help the average person. It makes GDP a poor indicator of how we’re doning.

Agreed that there are some benefits to the ecomony in general when the rich spoil themselves, but it can have a relatively high impact to GDP (high price) with relatively small help to the average person.

I wasn’t really supporting a screw the rich policy with my post, just pointing out how GDP is of questionable benefit in guaging what is going on. However, since you brought it up, I agree with ET about supply side & trickle down.

I do agree that poor people don’t hire anyone, but middle class poeple running small businesses do unless they become poor. And do rich people hire more employees because they have their 10th billion?

It’s not always “rich” people who have plastic surgery. Since one can find easy financing for plastic surgery, you will also find people who really cannot afford the surgery, but use credit, then, they cannot afford to service the debt. Just as there are people who really cannot afford boats, houses, BMW’s, etc.

Poor people pay taxes. They pay sales tax on clothing, food and services, just like the rich. The pay less income tax because they make less money. But they do not have as many loop holes of which to take advantage.

Most people work for corporations, which are owned privately, or if publicly traded, by shareholders. Not all shareholders are wealthy. And sometimes, corporations operate in the red, not in the black. And even when corporations are bleeding to death, the CEO and the rest of the upper echelon is probably making 500x the salary of the lowest paid employee, which is ludicrous and amoral.

Most people do not work for poor people because many poor people are simply not motivated to learn and succeed. Frankly, that is their problem. There have been plenty of people in the history of this country who started out poor, and went on to become wealthy through hard work and perserverance. So, in a way, many of us, at one time or another, have worked for a poor person who didn’t stay poor for very long.

Some of the best products are made by hand. Furniture, for one. And other things, like boats and airplanes, may have some parts automatically assembled, but they are still assembled “by hand”. Conversely, some of the crappiest products are made by machine, and usually, these products have short life spans.

Companies “go under” either because people can no longer afford their products, because they are mis-managed, or because they just simply suck.

Manny’s right.

Also, its not a recession. There are still plenty of skilled positions available and in-demand people aren’t losing their jobs. Having the right skills in the right market will keep you making money. Move to Boston and learn software engineering, you’ll need a stick to beat away all the jobs around here. We’ve got open rec’s that haven’t been filled in two years.

Manny,

Some agreement and alot of disagreement.

I don’t see manufacturing going back to hand production, but automation increases GDP without helping average people. Likewise, when the rich spoil themselves it does have some benefit for the overall economy. However, given the relatively high effect on GDP (high price) and relatively low benefit to average people it does further create distortions in using GDP to gauge how things are going.

My original intent was not to preach “screw the rich”, but since you took us there…. I agree with ET about supply side and trickle down.

As far as the poor hiring people, no they don’t. But middle class people running small businesses do, unless they become poor because of stupid policies. Middle class people can also buy stocks and bonds to help business expand and grow, unless they can’t afford it because stupid policies make them poor.

I’m not saying that no one should be rich, and I’d like to be myself someday. I don’t believe, however, that helping the rich become richer does a whole lot of good unless they use their money productively. Chasing 1/2% higher returns on complex financial products; not doing much good.

“Manny, you can polish that Supply-Side, Trickle Down Turd until you’re dripping with sweat, it won’t change its gooey manure essence.”

What? He’s right. The luxury tax on boats was lifted because even the politicians could see that the only people they were really screwing were boat retailers and builders.

And he is right about jobs and about the velocity of money too. Does not mean one should not have a progressive tax system. But some concept of economics beyond “waaah, rich people bad” is useful.

And, if the population growth goes negative, we might find that our standard of living rises. Think GDP per capita–if we continue via rising productivity to produce more, while the population shrinks, then GDP per capita rises–i.e. we each have more money (and this is really big picture, admittedly.) Interesting article…somewhere…the other day pointing this out, and noting the U.S. per capita GDP is falling.

Lots of very rich folks do not hire anyone outside of service folks…nannies, cleaning persons, lawn care, etc. Their money is invested here, there or anywhere, and they can live on the proceeds of tax-free munies. How many have stashed the bulk of their wealth overseas, in non-dollar denominated investments? They may choose to continue living here, but they are not “hiring” anyone in the early 20th century model of the Armours or the Swifts or the Fords…where the wealthy owned the factory and hired the local folks.
Even Gates, a modern day Swift, if you will, prefers to import cheap labor via Hb-1 visas.
In 21st century America, it’s government that creates the jobs…check the BLS statistics.

No one wants to soak the rich. We just want them to pay the same percentage of their income in taxes as the rest of us do. Why is it okay for a third of my paycheck to be taken in taxes, etc. while they have many means of avoiding taxes altogether.

Agreed, Ed. Manny’s got good arguments, and that “luxury yacht” thing was yet another case of politicians being unable to follow even one layer of inderect consequences from their actions; those pols would never make it in a real business. And you’re right about the tech jobs, at least in the right cities.

I’d advise, though, to reverse the order you stated, and learn software engineering BEFORE you move to Boston, lest you starve before landing that plum job! Boston is a hard place to afford while you’re on the lower rungs of the skills ladder.

If people choose to invest abroad and live here, so be it. You are however contradicting yourself. You say the rich don’t contribute and simultaneously living a life of luxury. Well, OK, does this life of luxury include dining out? How about going on vacations? How about driving the Porsche? How about repairing the Porsche? How about going to concerts, sporting events, syphonies or the opera? Or are you suggesting they lock themselves in their mansions (on which they pay enormous property tax) and live like hermits?

Unless the answer is yes, they put plenty of money into the economy.

“I think we can all agree nurses are not part of the “rich”.

Actually, in California, nurses are rich. The overtime that some get is atrocious. The highest paid city employee in San Francisco is a nurse who made $350K (from last week’s SF Chronicle). That is in the upper 1% of the income distribution. I call that rich.

I once, in my younger days, knew several “travelling” nurses. They made incredibly good money. They also led incredibly uprooted lifestyles, and when they worked (in between our ski trips), they worked hard, hard, hard. I was envious of their pay but certainly not their hours nor of their duties. They earned it all, in my opinion.

I guess the way I would put it is that the rich are doing okay so they shouldn’t need a whole lot of extra tax breaks, especially when there are many people sinking from the middle class. They do contribute to the economy, which they will do with or without a little extra from the government. If the government has some extra cash to throw around, fix some pot holes and shore up a crumbling bridge first, or give a tax break to a small business startup instead of tax cuts to the already well off.

manny’s correct as far as it goes but a service economy focused on serving the hereditary rich — building their yachts, inserting their boobs, doing their taxes, wiping their asses, is a crappy one.

The strength of an economy is not just total GDP, but the actual physical wealth — steel, coal, plastic, lumber, concrete, and intellectual capital — patents, health procedures, teaching methods, books — social capital — painting, songs, and how great a percentage of the population is engaged in this productive economy vs. sitting back and watching people work, either with welfare checks or the idle rentierism of inheritance.

Why can’t the boats be built with automation systems? CNC, robotz, laser cutters…

No need for that. They yacht manufacturing biz is being offshored as we type.

And he is right about jobs and about the velocity of money too. Does not mean one should not have a progressive tax system. But some concept of economics beyond “waaah, rich people bad” is useful.

Some concept of wealth distribution beyond, “Durrrrrrr, rich people are totally awesome, let’s give ‘em another break!” would be helpful as well.

Thought experiment: send all the hereditary wealthy — top 5% who own 80% of everything — to Dubai. Liquidate their accounts and simply incinerate the resulting trillions of cash.

Will us remaining citizens be richer or poorer? Have more economic opportunities or fewer?

It is very difficult to earn over the FICA cap ($102,000 currently) without engaging in rentierism, and rentierism is not a net positive economic activity.

RE: it almost killed the US boating industry.

Man, scores of monster Cigarette type boats with their dual big block and external drive motors out there for sale these days.

The boats are so big the owner’s haul them out to some corner of a commercial parking lot to put them on display.

Not a prayer on unloading these dinosaurs.

Sure glad my hobby is 2-wheeled and gets 58mpg.

Money made from dividends are not taxed for social security. And there is a CAP of $90,000. of your/our earnings that go toward Social Security, so the wealthy do not pay any taxes towards this entitlement they WILL use on any monies or investments that pay off Over 90k.

That Cap needs to be eliminated.

Thank you NoVa. I’m a nurse and we average 80K at best here in Hawaii. Nursing is physically, mentally, and emotionally taxing… I could tell you horror stories… nurses put themselves in physical danger every day and we are the ones who are in between MD orders and your care. You don’t want a dummy drawing up your meds.
BTW my job is working for the poorest of them all- the State of Hawaii taxpayers.

“Also, its not a recession.”

Great timing on that pronouncement — only one day after BB uttered the ‘R’ word for the first time!

Why should the cap be eliminated? The benefits max out now as well. Despite the bad ROI on SS (less than 2% a year) it is fair in that the payments on the back end are proportional (mostly) to the payments on the front end. So I put in $X I get $YX. You put in 2X you get back $2YX. That’s a true pay as you go system. The more you put in the more you get out. Eliminating the cap without eliminating the cap on benefits will make this horrendously unfair and SS will become one more welfare transfer payment.

Right now the top marginal rate is 37.9% including the medicare tax which has no cap. Bad but not awful. Eliminating the SS cap will add another 12.4% to that, meaning the top marginal rate will be an astounding 50.3% just at the federal level. Add in state tax and in some states that will mean a 60% marginal tax rate. I ask you who in their right mind will work an extra day and declare that income when 60% of the pay will go to taxes? I sure wouldn’t. No way I’m working from 9 to 2 for the government.

One of two things will. People will not declare their income or they will simply work less. Either scenario will result in less tax being collected in the long term.

Oh and the limit hasn’t been $90K since 2003. It is $102K this year.

Hey manny,

“I ask you who in their right mind will work an extra day and declare that income when 60% of the pay will go to taxes?”
Another bit of illogic there. How many people do you know that get paid daily, and yet are worried about making over $102K per year? We’re talking salaried workers for the most part. Some people in salaried jobs may chose to change their work habits to avoid further promotions/pay raises above 102K because of an increase of 12.5% in taxes, but I doubt that would be the majority. Alot of people in that pay grade are self motivated, the pay is a bonus. Someone making 300K a year isn’t likely to take steps to decrease their income to 102K either. And if someone is going to cheat on their taxes, they’re going to do it regardless of that 12.5% because they are dishonest. For the hourly folks making that kind of money, if they chose to work less hours then there’s more for other workers.

“So I put in $X I get $YX. You put in 2X you get back $2YX.”

Not unless you are at the lowest earned income levels. The rate is severely cut at a couple of breakpoints. Someone who say, earns at the wage base max throughout their 35+ years of employment used in the calcs, gets a lot less than 2x the benefit of someone who earns at 1/2 the max throughout their similar employment history.

Al-
Let’s say I’m one of those folks earning 300k/yr. Now say I’m an HBB who lives well within my means (say I spend 200k/yr including taxes). Now, I have two possible investments. The first will have a profit $10,000 (pre tax) and employ 2 people (at $35,000/yr), and the second is a muni bond that will pay $5,000 but not have taxes due. Which do you think I’d take under the current system? How about if I think that it’s likely that taxes will be increased if your tax increase is enacted? Which is better for the two people I’d be hiring or all the potential customers of my business.

Granted not every choice is that simple, but I can say as someone earning well less than my story (but enough that taxes too a pretty big bite last year), I’m seriously considering the muni’s for the next few years.

I call BS on the “work less” argument. That might apply to the uber rich who don’t “work” ie payroll taxes at all but everyone on else will work for the man or if not will be replaced in short order by someone who will work.

There are lots of ways to work less. You might live in a smaller town with quality of live rather than a big city where your skills would be used more productively, you might choose a job with shorter hours (attorney at a small firm) rather than a similar job with long hours (big name firm). Most investors consider their after tax return, which can be quite different from their pre-tax return. Homes in particular produce tax sheltered income, and that shelter level increased recently, that touched off a wave of investment in that sector (which I think most of us would agree was determental to investment in other segments of the economy).

Another way to work less is work a 40 hr a week job for low pay and build your primary home every two years, rinse and repeat. Does anyone think that’s good for the economy?

I call BS on the “work less” argument. That might apply to the uber rich who don’t “work” ie payroll taxes at all but everyone on else will work for the man or if not will be replaced in short order by someone who will work.
I retired 15 years early when the taxes on the earnings of my accumulated retirement savings started to exceed the taxes I was paying on my earned income. When I did the math I learned I would actually come out ahead by not working any longer. This was not the only consideration, there were personal, legal & organizational issues unique to my line of work which also contributed. I am not rich by any means.

Manny

I’ll take on your question about poor people providing jobs.

Poor people do indeed provide jobs!!! Most entrepreneurs are “poor” when they start, and sole proprietors are more likely to pay wages that more closely aligned with theirs.

Which is better for society? Three rich people who buy boats and other luxury items, or two hundred “average” people who eat, buy houses, cars, boats, TVs, clothing, get cars repaired, houses cleaned, etc.?

The rich tend to use their money to invest in things which will bring them a positive return (the money goes out, but is expected to come back and suck additional money out of other peoples’ pockets in the form of interest, dividends, capital gains, etc.). They are a net drain on an economy.

IMHO, it is far better to have a broader economic base, where there is less hoarding of resources (what wealthy people do) and more actual trading of goods and services — without any strings attached.

Money is supposed to be a medium of exchange for goods and services — a substitute for for productivity.

Wealthy people (those who don’t have to work, or produce very little) do not produce, yet feel entitled to hoard labor’s productivity. Not quite sure how you can justify that.

I checked Wikipedia, and according to it government spending is included. Here’s a thought: avoid recession - dropp more bombs.

They’ve been dropping the F bomb, as in Failure is an option.

Bingo, “The Forgotten Man” made this point very well.

wittbelle, I always enjoy your posts but I have to differ a little with you here:

When my mom’s brothers (plus wives and kids) came over they ended up 11 people in a two bedroom garage apt. that my dad had built to house my mom’s parents and one sister.

(The original plan was for the kids to come stay in our duplex house, but they wanted to stay with their folks, so until they got used to us, they were 11 in 2 bedrooms and a pullout couch in the LR. Some people on our block thought we were Puerto Rican. )

They didn’t stay long in that condition, they made enough money working for my dad (who sponsored them, that’s how regular immigration works) to move out to their own apts. and then to houses that they built themselves. And no they weren’t sprawling jobs like whitey lives in, they were modest ranch homes or split levels that puerto-rican looking Italian immigrants like to live in.

In the interim, they did not send the bulk of their earnings back to the old country, nor did they use any emergency medical or social services that were paid for by taxpayers. They paid their fair share of payroll and witholding, I remember clearly because I had the job of doing my dad’s payroll. And they paid their own medical bills.

My point is there’s a different dynamic at play with the illegal immigrants than those who arrived - or are attempting to arrive - via due process. A big part of it is the assimilation factor, as was discussed in yesterday’s bits bucket.

disclosure: I’m the one that ended up living in the big whitey house.

Phillygal: I was following a string of posts that started with upping the minimum wage to $90K so strawberry pickers and burger flippers could afford homes without liar loans. Most people that pick strawberries and flip burgers, at least in my neck of the woods, are hispanic. I had an hispanic nanny who used to send her money home to El Salvador and lived with another family in a small apartment in downtown L.A. She even asked me for a little extra at one point to get her daughter over here. Hispanics do send money home to their families, that is a fact. I see Western Union signs in spanish all the time: envia dinero (send money). My husband’s family immigrated to Canada from Holland and they never sent money home to assist in other family members’ flight, to my knowledge, either, nor did they pick berries or flip burgers.

Your husband emigrated from Holland to Canada, so you certainly don’t need any lectures from me on legal immigration…and coincidentally, I do have 2nd cousins who picked grapes in the vineyards of Southern Ontario, when they emigrated in the 1960s. The US had established quotas so my relatives went to the next best place, Canada. A couple ended up in Australia.

I know it may sound sanctimonious to some ears when I post about the difference between legal and illegal immigrants. Let’s face it, nobody holds any illusions about why the immigrants are allowed to any of these host countries - there’s a need for their (usually cheap) labor. It’s nothing to do with that “send me your tired huddled masses” crap. Bottom line: when immigration happens in an orderly fashion, it’s a lot easily absorbed by the population at large.

legal = orderly
illegal = disorderly

One of the consequences of all the illegals’ wages being sent home instead of used to pay their own medical bills, is that maternity wards in Philadelphia are shutting down because they can’t deal with the overload.
(I’m not suggesting that your nanny wasn’t here legally)

BTW one of the reasons I like your posts is because you do have a way with words…

I sponsored my husband so he could apply for his green card. I filled out all of the paperwork by hand myself, sat in the interview office and everything, so no, I don’t need a lecture about legal immigration. We paid our fees and did what we had to do to, (including going to their scummy medical clinic in Santa Ana to get his immunizations and blood work), to have him here and able to work legally. But of all the issues plaguing our nation right now, I could not really care less about immigration. I’ve lived with illegal immigrants my entire life and I’ve got no bone to pick with them. I even used to collect medical bills, so I had to learn how to speak spanish and learn how to say, “send me your MediCal sticker”. I think the entire problem with this country stems from the top. Too much greed, corruption, CEO’s making too much money and trimming the fat where it hurts the little guy, (like forgetting to inspect airlines, pro ejemplo). I’d rather the president of United take a pay cut so my husband’s plane to Chicago doesn’t crash. It’s a travesty where this nation’s priorities lie and I’m sickened by it.

Oooh! Olympiagal, I’ve recently become obsessed with the Mormon religion and would love to talk to you off board. I’m just beyond curious about the magic underwear!

How do the LDS collect the tithe from a man who doesn’t like to work? I only ask because every LDS family that I know is somewhat prosperous. Degrees from BYU and U of Utah, etec, and have good paying jobs.

oh I read this board for housing insight, but sometimes you rrun across these pearls of description…Olympiagal, you join oxide for witty description fame..

“Shucks, air conditioning, like t.v. and spam, were for rich folks. My dad didn’t like to work. He only liked to procreate and read the Book of Mormon. Sometimes, for variety, he would beat up the nearest kid, in a display of righteous priesthood authority.”

and from oxide on inflation…

“It’s pretty pathetic when the bag of tater tots in the back of my freezer generates a higher return than a bond backed by the good faith and credit of the US Government”

I wouldn’t go to Olympiagal for any ‘insights’ on the Mormon religion. Her past comments have revealed that she has a very limited understanding of the religion. Perhaps that is based on the fact that her dad apparently didn’t really live the tenets of the religion but just used it as a means of maintaining power or something.

Plus, relying on the ‘wisdom’ of someone who paints the members of an entire religions as being lazy child abusers is probably not a great idea. Just ’cause her dad was an idiot doesn’t mean that all Mormons are…

To the thread topic…
I grew up with a father who was an MD, we still shared rooms and ate spam. Whats worse is we didn’t go to Disneyland until I was in my teens — the horror!

Our TV broke one day and we went without for a year or two — no ‘Happy Days’ for us.

jb

Comment by In Colorado
2008-04-03 10:11:14
‘How do the LDS collect the tithe from a man who doesn’t like to work? I only ask because every LDS family that I know is somewhat prosperous. Degrees from BYU and U of Utah, etec, and have good paying jobs.’

Well, in colorado, 10% of nothing is….what?
And both my parents had BS degrees from BYU.

Comment by wittbelle
2008-04-03 09:49:21
“Oooh! Olympiagal, I’ve recently become obsessed with the Mormon religion and would love to talk to you off board. I’m just beyond curious about the magic underwear!”

Awww! No! No! Listen here, wittbelle, you gotta drop the ‘fascination’ right now. Yes, I know, they are so clean, so white, so non-smoking, so smacking of moral certitude and nice big answers to the deep Universal questions…but no. No. Put the fascination down, and walk away. ‘Fascination’ is but one step away from being fitted for your sister-wife bridal gown. There’s ever so many more things to get fascinated with in this exciting world than the Mormons. Like, may I suggest making clay mugs? How about growing tulips? How about building pretty tables from pallets? I would love to talk about those things each and any day, but baybee, I got away. I escaped, and I possess no desire at all to ever place my eyes upon another Mormon, or discuss their magic panties, unless it’s by accident.

Comment by jb
2008-04-03 14:35:57
I wouldn’t go to Olympiagal for any ‘insights’ on the Mormon religion. Her past comments have revealed that she has a very limited understanding of the religion”

Merciful Heavens, jp, that’s all you got? Jeeze, Joe the Profit would be weeping, if he wasn’t resurrected by now. You may as well be a wussy gentile, here, man! I expect more from one of the chosen. Where’s the righteous indignation? Go gather your priesthood and gird up the Mighty Loins of Nephi and come back with better snarkiness.

Olympiagal: Oh poo. Why you are no fun at all! My main fascination for anyone who has an opinion, was how oh oh oh so many people bought into (and, evidently, still do) the whole gold tablets buried under a hill thing and the sporadic visits from Moroni (isn’t that a pasta?), and so on. It is also my understanding that the witness accounts to these events were sketchy at best and that some of them agreed to say they were witnesses under conditions that might be considered duress by today’s standards. It’s certainly no more or less believable than some of the stories in the Bible, but still, having it all happen right here in the good old U.S. of A. less than 200 years ago makes it somehow less plausible t me. No offense, just asking…

‘…was how oh oh oh so many people bought into (and, evidently, still do) the whole gold tablets buried under a hill thing and the sporadic visits from Moroni (isn’t that a pasta?)…’,

Because oh, oh, oh so many people would rather have someone else tell them how to get to Heaven, rather than plod their own dreary way down a fretful path. You been looking at this blog a long time, does the sheer mass of stupid eager sheepledom surprise you?
Not me, either.
Is what I surmise. Anyway, no, Maroni is NOT a pasta, you’re thinking of ‘marconi’, which is a decent brand. Or else ‘macaroni’, those little tasty tube noodle things, with that orange cheese powder. It’s easy to confuse the things, I know. But either of those two things that are waaaaay better than Moroni.
Believe it. Really. No–really.

Thats great stuff! I have vivid memories as a young kid sleeping on the floor (hardwood) of my parents bedroom b/c they were the only ones with an a/c unit in the window! Fortunately our furnace blew up (blowing black soot over everything in our house) and the insurance claim enabled us to get a new heat pump/central a/c unit…. along with several weeks worth of slow moving men cleaning everything in sight!

hwy50ina49dodge-
I know what you mean. At my father’s funeral recently,the clergy didn’t want to mention that on weekends, my father would take up to the park to play, and then the public library (within the park) to learn to love books. He said that was too old fashion, and would bore the morners. I made a wise crack, to change it to ipods and hip-hop lessons. He was young. I guess I am old too. I liked those days.

2. The only meat I ate before was antelope or venison my folks shot. McDonald’s was a birthday level treat for us.

Me, too, Bluto! Me, too! Except no McDonald’s for birthdays. That fancy high-class eatery was far away, in the city, for rich folks. I bet you’re a fabulous shot. I also am a fabulous shot. I can poach a deer, if I wanted to poach a deer, which I no longer do because now I understand the sin of eating my fellow earth-dwellers–mostly, unless they look super tasty– anyway, I can shoot the testes off a deerfly, and the deerfly can then depart, with only a small twinge, and then later file a complaint. As long as it looks like that’s what needs doing. I have to be convinced, first. You can’t just jump in and deprive a deerfly of his rights. That smacks of hubris.

‘Except no McDonald’s for birthdays. That fancy high-class eatery was far away, in the city, for rich folks.’

And I remember a time when Starbucks shops were a treat to savor and approached with some awe for the altar of coffee.

Dr. Evil: We hold the world ransom for… ONE MILLION DOLLARS

Number Two: Don’t you think we should ask for *more* than a million dollars? A million dollars isn’t exactly a lot of money these days. Virtucon alone makes over 9 billion dollars a year!

Dr. Evil: Really? That’s a lot of money.

[pause]
Dr. Evil: Okay then, we hold the world ransom for…

Dr. Evil: One… Hundred… BILLION DOLLARS!

IIRC the article I recall said that the average foreclosure sale price was $22,000 or $27,000 in January 2007 and $10,000 in January 2008. So with a huge jump in sales came a huge drop in selling price, for foreclosures anyways.

That’s why I haven’t considered relocating to Detroit. NW PA is a better location and 50x safer too and just as cheap. Yes I had to mention it but it’s true how much Detroit sucks. Everyone is running away!

I thought you really couldn’t insure abandoned houses. One more thing they forgot to mention in second-home-flippers school. You can buy it, you can pay for insurance, but are you insured?

ByeFL, I posted this late yesterday, but really, are you going to NW PA or not?

If you’re so hell-bent on living in NW PA permanently (it sure sounds like it, if you’re planning to plant orchards), why not move NOW? You don’t have to buy that 50K house right away.

Dump your stuff, rent a studio, and work at Borders or Costco for a year, just to get the lay of the land (and the lay of land prices!). Costs are so cheap you’d probably put away more there than you are in high-cost FL now. And after that year, that $50K house will probably be $42k. You should easily be able to put away a 2K down pay, even on a low salary or heck, even with a credit card.

Is there a specific reason you’re stying in FL, like saving for a car, or you have a $$ job you intend to quit, paying off debt, etc? If you do, please tell us and we’ll stop bugging you. Otherwise, use that energy toward your dream!

When my wife and I built a spec house, we had it insured. While it was being built and while it was finished and on the market it was insured. My expectation at that time was that if it burned down we would be reimbursed.

That’s my only data point, I have no other knowledge of that issue.

Wouldn’t that be a steal if it was on the East Coast somewhere??

I’d buy it in a heartbeat on the East Coast.

I suppose but there is stuff just like that in many of the post industrial towns in the northeast for less money. The other problem with that joint is the floorplan. Outside of the cool factor it isn’t conducive to 21st century layout. We can harp on the skill that went into building it and 2008 replacement costs but how is it any different than buying a Model T to drive to work?

Where are you from Exter? In most cities in the top 50 that house would be at least 800k. Well over a million in DC, Boston, LA, etc.

I’m in NY to work, from VT. Take a trip through Buffalo, Syracuse, Utica, Newburgh, Binghamton, Albany, Schenectady, Troy, Hudson, Elmira, etc. All old industrial towns but not nearly the scale of Detroit and you’ll find the same old houses in declining neighborhoods. Go for it but it is the same speculation that got us where we are. “Gotta get my bargain before someone else gets the deal of a lifetime”. It’s come obvious to me there is shack speculation right here on this blog.

I’m not sure I buy the idea of the “Twentieth Century layout”. What is the difference? Most people I know who own new houses (McMansions) don’t even use most of the rooms. They all have a family room with a soaring ceiling, a living room and dining room that are never used, huge basements with nothing in them.

I owned an older house and had no problems with it functionally (or in any other way). I think this statement has more to do with your personal preference. Most newer houses lack the charm of a house like the one in the story.

“shack speculation”

Whatever you think of Detroit, by no means is the Kirkland house a “shack”.

Spike they’re all shacks. Every last one of them. And they all share one common function; shelter. And everyone of them, like everything else on this planet came from the ground and will end up back in the ground. And like everything else, it is in a state of decay from the time the first nail is driven or brick mudded up.

Hey Joebos…. Remember “lord won’t you buy me a mercedes benz”??? A bus ticket or a Chevy will get you to work just the same.

I won’t bore you with the long punchlist of problems related to that wigwam. Not to mention the big $$$ to remedy said problems.

RE: I’m in NY to work, from VT. Take a trip through Buffalo, Syracuse, Utica, Newburgh, Binghamton, Albany, Schenectady, Troy, Hudson, Elmira, etc. All old industrial towns but not nearly the scale of Detroit and you’ll find the same old houses in declining neighborhoods.

Gloversville, NY-Home to Van’s Harley-Davidson Sales.

Now there’s a down and out NY town.

Kinda gave me the creeps when I drove thru on a return trip from OH.

And that’s from somebody from ME which is no economic prize in itself.

And add to it every BS podunk smaller city like Amsterdam, saratoga, Lebanon, Rome, Auburn, Cohoes, Rennselaer, Green Island etc. All in a state of decline. Take your pick and take your chances. I’m sure there are diamonds to be shoveled up there too. lmao.

“Spike they’re all shacks.”

Nope, they’re not. There’s a lack of nuance in your reply. But if you prefer blanket denunciations, fair enough–I’ll skip replying to your posts.

Still upset over a comment I made over a year ago aye mate? It’s not good to hold onto that stuff. But do give us the distinction between shacks, shanties, stucco boxes, wigwams. Explain how you hold one shelter in such high regard and disregard other shelter.

Then tell how you distinguish between a shack that offers shelter and a box that offers the same. Shack, box, wigwam, shanty… they’re all the same but do chose to elevate one over another a’la audi over chevy. But do so at your own cost.

can anyone tell me why detroit is falling apart? besides loss of factory jobs

If you speak to a native Detroiter, you will find that they often tend to date events in their lives as being pre- or post-riots. Said riots occurred in 1968, I think, but I could be off by a couple of years. One often hears: “We used to go there often, before the riots,” or, “After the riots, I would never put my kid in the Detroit public schools.” That event has an almost mythic hold over people there and it literally marks the break in people’s minds from place that while gritty, was very much on a par with Chicago in terms of overall liveability to a hole that nearly every suburbanite tries to avoid at all costs.

Coupled with the somewhat toxic race relations, the decline of its once-dominant industry has made it a place that relatively few people who grew up there want to stick around. Everyone knows that the Big 3 are not scooping up high school grads to work in the factories anymore. Those lucky enough to have work tend to be more in their 40s and 50s. The weather is nothing to cheer about, and having grown up in the industrial midwest myself, I knew lots of kids and their parents who got sick of the winters and just bailed. Of course, there are exceptions, and there are places in and around the city that could rival the wealthiest parts of America, but on a macro level, it just doesn’t seem like the kind of place that people want to move to or stay in.

Racial issues played a huge part. There was some violence back in the civil rights era. Then most of the middle class and up whites left after busing and other integration measures. The blacks who were left depended upon the auto industry. Once they started to cut jobs, the other leg got cut down.

No tax base means no money for infrastructure, or repairs.

First there was white flight, now there’s black flight. It accelerated IMHO once the Detroit residency rule for city employees was rescinded.

It was actually kind of a joke anyways, ’cause lots of city workers of all kinds had “rental houses” out in the ‘burbs. Once in a while the city would actually do a stakeout operation on somebody to see where they actually lived most of the time.

Even those who were around for the riots will go downtown for entertainment and the overwhelming majority can say “I’ve never had a problem.” Get outside of the immediate downtown, and the decay is obvious.

LOLOL…..’cept I’m gonna need to bolt machine guns to my truck to go visit ‘em.

Next bubble then = safe ways to move houses from abandoned cities to locales with economies intact?
Pay 90K, deed the land to the city for a park, write off the donation and suddenly NJ adds a home that isnt a craptastic McMansion with a “brick” front and 3 vinyl sides… I’ve never understood that…. I mean, unlesss you look perfectly perpendicular, youre fooling no one…. and seeing as they slap them all up next to each other, you can still see the neighbor’s pathetic yellow or white siding and know whats going on.

It most certainly seems contrived doesn’t it jbunniii? An intentional deconstruction of a system that worked very well, victims be damned. I don’t think folks outside the rust belt have any clue as to the effects of post industrialization. It extends as far east and north to Maine, south to St. Loius and west to MN.

It can hardly be a secret.

It’s been in decline for most of my adult life, and possibly all of my life.

20%+ unemployed. 12.5% on food stamps. Do you need any more statistics?

Fine.

There are a few “outliers”. Toss in Fifth Ave., and Malibu too to that list. Every major world city will have one or two as well.

The general principle stands. You haven’t made even a dent in the argument.

People who are independently wealthy can live anywhere they can damn well afford. The rest of us must consider J.O.B.’s in all our calculations. Big difference.

There should be a free market in offering him $30K in loans as unsecured debt (probably at pretty high interest rates) to help him get out of it.

Not necessarily. At the very least if someone of his (presumed) income level can’t come up with 30k cash I imagine the interest rate required for someone to make him a loan might be illegal. (does anyone know if there is a hard % limit on what is considered usury?)

Interestingly, if that is the case then is that really a market failure? I think keeping resources away from people who tend to squander those resources is a market success.

You have an excellent point.

So here’s the situation in a nutshell as I understand it: the market can’t function for this guy (even though he and his wife presumably make good money) because of the usury laws; and rolling back the usury laws, well, every single one of y’all know what would happen if that happened.

We seem to have unearthed yet another gen-yoo-eye-n economic failure, not of the “true libertarian” free market though.

Probably a behemouth SLOBurban or TaWhore. Or a pair of them. But GM employees get sweet deals through GMS.

“There are signs that every type of dollar denominated bond auction is having to go begging for bidders.”

This one plain twists my balls. PAY A FRIGGIN YIELD AND YOU’LL HAVE PLENTY OF BUYERS.

But that would admitting that things are not hunky dory. Plus it would put tremendous pressure on the gov’t budget. Much like a toxic mortgage resetting to the real interest rate. A lot of the federales debt is short term. and I expect that they don’t want to roll it over into higher yield instruments.

They can’t even conceive of compound interest. Hell, they can’t even bother to read the bills they pass.

Think of a mix of Engineers from the Czech Republic, Nurses from Germany, Farmers from Wisconsin & Entrepreneurs from China and much more along those lines, w/o having to accept 1908 era Southern Europeans along with the mix.

I know a few people who took the bait to move to the paradise down under. Eventually they all came back.

I expect an orgy of gun disorder in our country, with both barrels blazing, and i’m not sure Canada won’t be pulled into it.

I can assure you New Zealand will be watching from afar.

‘I expect an orgy of gun disorder in our country’

Yeah, you’ve been saying that for a while. Fact is, every state that legalized concealed carry saw a decrease in crime.

The fact is, there are hundreds of millions of handguns in our country in the hands of ever-increasingly desperate people.

Last year in particular, was stunning in the amount of wanton random mass murders, starting with the Va. Tech episode.

You never hear about the myriad of onesy-twosey murders, do you?

Not a one of the mass murders had anything to do with money, imagine when that aspect looms large?

Concealment or lack of, will mean nothing when everybody’s packing heat as a matter of course.

So if someone shows up to help themselves to your stuff, I guess you can always throw gold coins at them.

Thank you, thank you, I’ll be here all week!

Gun violence is the number one reason we will be leaving this country, to go visit our Gold coins, already overseas.

The Constitution is a fine document mostly, but as exeter said about the virtues of a 1908 house in Detroit, it’s hopelessly dated in some parts.

The 2nd Amendment made sense at a time when a rifle took almost a minute to re-load and the aspect of England invading again was a real prospect, but they couldn’t have anticipated rapid-firing handguns and assault rifles, surely.

When there isn’t any municipal money for policemen, is when the breakdown of society starts in earnest, and the cult of the gun takes over.

I’ll be watching the proceedings from far, far away.

If it gets to that, I’ll have to go back to the ranch in Texas and bring out the unconcealed arms.

Gun violence is the number one reason we will be leaving this country, to go visit our Gold coins, already overseas.

Right…good luck with Europe, as it becomes increasingly overrun with Islamic immigrants whose modern culture (apparently) has zippo problems killing outsiders.

Our biggest modern threat is terrorism. Terrorists rarely pick on NAR gun rallies and/or military installations. but are okay with places like malls and schools where the chances are pretty high noone is going to shot back. (They are fanatics, but they aren’t stupid.) My guess is that the single biggest deterrent to additional terrorism after 9/11 has been the renewal of the sky marshall program.

I don’t carry a gun but I’m grateful for the right to be able to do so. Most gun owners I’ve met are extremely responsible - the nutsos are going to get guns whether they are legal or not.

Heh. That’s what you get for not reading a thread better. Sorry about the Europe comment, he’s headed for New Zealand when Armageddon comes. My other points might still be valid but who knows.

You’re right, Vermontergal. Domestic terrorism is a huge problem. In the past year alone, we had 3 mall shootings and 3 church shootings. I can’t count the number of school shootings we’ve seen (almost weekly if you watch CNN all day) and there was one recent incident where some idiot walked into a township meeting and blew 6 people away before killing himself. Not to mention countless workplace shootings. One in NC the other day and 3 dead at a junkyard last week, if recent memory serves me. Not sure why the gov’t focus is on foreigners and brown skinned people, we have a much bigger problem with those who are born citizens.

I have lived in this country for 32 years and not once in those 11,680 days have I been a victim of this gun violence. I don’t know anyone who ever has. And I’ve lived in a major city my whole life.

I own a handgun and take it to a shooting range a couple of time a month. There is nowhere I feel safer than surrounded by a bunch of “GUN NUTS” like myself. It is the one place in the world, I can 100% guarantee, no asshole will walk in and start firing randomly into a crowd like so often happens in “GUN FREE” zones like schools, malls, colleges etc.

You eliminate the 2nd, you might as well eliminate the 1st since there is nothing protecting your right to the 1st anymore. Yeah in the 1700s it took a minute to load a rifle. But the framers knew that the only way a people remain free is by being able to defend itself against government tyranny. That is true whether my gun can fire 10 bullets a second or a bullet every 10 minutes.

Terrorism is a boogeyman, sorry. There are far worse dangers out there. It’s all about actual risk v. perceived risk. And there’s no way to assess how effective anti-terrorist measures are. Perhaps they just haven’t been planning any. Very hard to get accurate, meaningful metrics on it.

I feel that the biggest deterrent to airline terrorism is not the sky marshall program. It is normal citizens who now know that an airline hijacking won’t be a “fly to Libya, refuel and land in Cyprus where all hostages are released or the plane is stormed” scenario. It will be a “we’re gonna kill you no matter what, so you might as well attack us” scenario (yelling “Allahu Akbar” while you do it if only for the irony).

MrBubble

PS: The robberies and gun violence are ratcheting up in Oaktown across the bay from me. It’s going to get far, far worse. Again, just my opinion.

I may have misread the thread and not gotten your difference between religious/ideological terrorism and “domestic terrorism”. But I think that calling a deranged person with a gun in a mall shooting people “terrorism” muddies the waters. Just call them crazy f&*ckers with guns.

Now, if they are trying to overthrow the gov’t, you can call them “terrorist”. Or “freedom fighter”. Whatever your political bent.

But you are spot on about the terrorist boogeyman. I own a few pea shooters myself but I dont’ quite understand what the rabid defenders of the 2nd are so fearful of.

I carry a gun because a cop is too heavy and when seconds count, the cops are just minutes away.

AladInsane, how many of these crimes were due to criminals vs. non criminals? Last I checked, people weren’t allowed to have or use guns in a criminal manner. We already have lots of laws against this sort of thing. Taking guns away from non-criminals does NOTHING except take away their ability to protect themselves against a criminal. An armed man will kill an unarmed man with monotonous regularity. Passing gun control laws will not remove any guns except from law-abiding people - WHO ARE ALREADY LAW-ABIDING! Unless you think it’s possible to click your heels together and remove all guns in the world, all you’re doing is making it more and more possible for the government and criminals to herd people around like cattle.

Are you sure the founding fathers’ intentions weren’t to make sure the people would not be defenseless against their own government? Didn’t the founding fathers want to make sure the people could mount a fair attempt at over-throwing a tyrannical government? How would they do this if the government had all the guns and the citizens had none?

I bet you own a gun, too.

What is it that you’re so afraid of that you have to pack iron?

I find it interesting that the very same people on the left convinced Bush is about to open up concentration camps for anti-war protesters are the very same ones opposed to gun ownership. And also the ones asking why would anyone be afraid of their government.

Don’t let the door hit you on the ass on the way out……

Micheal Viking…

I’m not pro or anti gun. There are hundreds of millions of handguns in our country and they aren’t going away, no matter whose hands they are in.

The majority of the 1st world allows their citizenry to own rifles (I went shooting in NZ a month ago) & shotguns, but not handguns.

Enjoy your future gunfights, i’m not interested in getting involved.

“Didn’t the founding fathers want to make sure the people could mount a fair attempt at over-throwing a tyrannical government? How would they do this if the government had all the guns and the citizens had none?”

Yeah, we all know what happens when someone shoots a police officer (a representative of the government). You go to jail for life or get injected. This “protection from the tyranny of govt.” reasoning for assault rifles and handguns is BS.

Manny… We were having a relaxed discussion on firearms and you decide to interject kindergarten logic. Why?

I’ll be watching the proceedings from far, far away. So go already.

Exeter,

I’m worried that high minded intelectuals will make some really bad decisions that need to be corrected with gunfire.

So. I’ll stick with my choice of firearms.

Say “hi” to Mork for me.

Thanks.

I don’t think airline hijackings will be a problem much longer. Two airlines have gone out of business this past week alone. In the future the uber-rich will be the only ones who can afford this luxury.

Why would you be afraid of intellect?

Exeter,

I almost always agree with your posts, but on this topic, we disagree.

My mother and most of her friends grew up during WWII in Austria, Germany, Poland and Russia. The stories they tell about soldiers raping children, taking all the food — and everything else — from the citizens is beyond frightening.

Years ago, during one of these group discussions, I asked them why nobody ever fought back. They all laughed and said:

“With what? The first thing Hitler did was disarm all the people by saying it was ‘for their own safety.’”

Throughout history, you’ll find that the first thing malevolent dictators do is disarm the populace and remove the “wingnuts” who are trying to warn people ahead of time.

Beware a government that distrusts its citizens.

Tough issue, gun ownership. But I have to fall on the side of individual rights to keep and bear arms. In fact I am considering buying one right now. I have not had a weapon in the house since my son was born 10 years ago. I used to keep an SKS with a friend, but sold that some years back. Without donning the tin foil hat I have to say that it seems that each day there is a greater disconnect between my welfare and the government’s actions. I am have reached the point were I no longer feel that the government will act in my defense. They certainly have not acted in my best interests financially. And just to be prepared I think it best to have the protection on hand if it comes to that level of chaos. But that’s just my way of thinking. To each his own. Ponder this though, how many aborted mall, school, business shootings have you heard about on MSM when they were thwarted by some one who had a gun and acted in defense of the innocent? It happens all the time.

He wanted a silver standard I think? If I rememeber My history ?

Yeah, OK.

He also supported Prohibitionism (”what will you be drinkin’, Hoz?”) and crusaded against Darwinism (”pretty much directly contributed to the Scopes trial”)

Today, he is best remembered as the Cowardly Lion in that lovely economic allegory, The Wizard of Oz.

Boring. Next.

Hell of an orator, that Mr. Bryan.

He also supported Prohibitionism (”what will you be drinkin’, Hoz?”) and crusaded against Darwinism (”pretty much directly contributed to the Scopes trial”)

He was the prosecutor in the Scopes trial, in fact. (Yikes.)

Still, he could speechify somethin’ fierce.

The Mongrel Mobs is a North Island problem, head for the South Island and it isn’t an issue.

Was just in NZ a couple months back. Christchurch struck me as a very pleasant, liveable town. The whole South Island was great, and most of the North also. Right around Auckland is a bit crowded. Beautiful country, great people.

hmmmmm the south island has gangs just like everywhere else but theres only 1 million people living there because its to bloody cold in the winter . its really easy to look though rose coloured glasses i think you need to live there to find out ! theres not many kiwi new zealnders living in auckland now most would be imports, bringing there proplems with them they are here to become kiwis and when they become new zealanders they all go to aussie we are a transit country!

Anybody seriously considering moving somewhere else, would do themselves a huge favor by looking at a population map of 1950, before air conditioning, and see where people lived…
I think much of the migration to and settlement in the south and southwestern US since WWII, was only possible because of air conditioning. Before A/C it was far easier to warm a cold place than cool a hot one. Elderly people are particularly susceptible to heat stress. Remember the thousands of extra deaths (mostly among elderly) in France during a summer heat wave a few years ago.
Also, automobiles made settlement in parts of the country a reasonable choice after about 1905. Until then NV, AZ & NM were only served by railroads & horse-drawn conveyances, and settlement was very sparse. Those areas may evacuate if motor conveyance get expensive enough.

I’ve been watching it on HBO the past few weeks - very worth while, and it certainly beats the hell out of a lot of recent HBO fare (”John from Cincinnati”??)

I know! My parent’s had most of their money in cds at that time, I remember discussions about what to do when the cds came due, how long to leave them in, etc. I also seem to remember “money market accounts” which offered high rates of interest for the account balance? Them days are gone!

Now, hell, my Emigrant Direct account, which at one time I chose for the “high” interest rate, is down to 2.75%!

It’s very clear that “they” do not want you to save your money. “Invest in our crooked schemes, or lose to inflation. Buy crap you don’t need, because otherwise you’ll get no value for your dollar at all.”

Who cares so long as it puts an end to the absurd gotta have it now consumption.

Last week I asked my local commercial greenhouse owner if he thought seedling sales would be up this year due to more people growing their own food this year b/c of food prices.

He sort of lost it.
He’s nearly gone broke this winter heating his greenhouse. Delivery costs are out of control. He’s probably going to have to raise prices, but at the same time he’s doubtful that demand will be up. He doesn’t have too much faith that people are willing to do the work required for a garden. (kind of ironic for a greenhouse owner).

He told me to ask him again in May, he’d really know what was happening then.

There’s a saying that there are two ways to motivate people: inspiration and desperation. If the slackers of the world aren’t currently inspired enough to plant a victory garden, maybe a bit of desperation (hunger) will create a shift in conciousness. Of course, many will think that it’s easier to grab their Glock and take from those that produce, but that’s another thread….

Anyway, the use-less non-eaters of the future may be those who see gardening as “beneath them”. Sounds OK to me.

It’s pretty amazing how little the human body actually needs for fuel. We can get by on just water and very little to eat for quite a long time. I was backpacking in the Rockies once and started to run low on food. I could’ve come on out, but I didn’t want to, so I went to rations of about 600 calories per day. mostly granola and freeze-dried food. I would normally scarf down 2000 a day doing lot of hiking like that. I did this for 3 weeks and actually felt really good, though I didn’t climb any peaks. Lost some weight and when I came out all that processed crap we all like to eat seemed like real junk. I think the Victory Garden lifestyle might actually save a few lives from diabetes and that sort of thing.

I’m with you Lost In Utah. Americans are hefty for the most part, and Diabetes is an epidemic. I spoke to a few stockers in some grocery stores lately, and they said junk food sales are down. Now granted, the 99 C Only stores carry junk food, but still, that’s great news.

If people don’t have junk food disposable income, and actually lay off junk, and pesticide rich produce (i.e. grown their own) maybe we’ll see in drop in Diabetes, Parkinson’s, Alzheimer’s - (a.k.a.Diabetes Type 3, btw).
Back to basics would be good.

If people don’t have junk food disposable income, and actually lay off junk, and pesticide rich produce (i.e. grown their own) maybe we’ll see in drop in Diabetes, Parkinson’s, Alzheimer’s - (a.k.a.Diabetes Type 3, btw).
Back to basics would be good.

Back to basics will help. Eating less will help. But what does “back to basics” mean on a day to day basis?

The mainstream reaction here is low-fat, high whole grains, lots of veggies, no “junk” food (chips, crackers, sweets) However, you can live on that diet and still get heart disease and diabetes.

From direct personal experience I can tell you that sound nutrition for many people consists of meat, some vegetables and not much else. The diet I just described returned my health and weight to normal.

We will not conquer diabetes or any other diet induced chronic illness until we acknowledge the carnivorous biology (the hunter/gather evolution) of the human condition. I admit the problem with doing that on a planet with billions of people is enormous - but to do otherwise is to simply line the pockets of big pharma.

RE: You’d see a lot of lawn gardens and such.

Yup-lot’s of lawn and garden space in and around all the US big city low-income housing projects.

When the Teamsters stop hauling you can bet all those cheap Eastern Bloc $300.00 assault rifles will be comin’ out.

Then again maybe OBama losing the election will bring about the same reaction. LA Riots x 100

Now there’s a solution to the housing glut.

Burn, baby, burn!

Big V will probably agree with me that you cannot become complaisant with a woman. Although she may dislike being compared to a cold heartless stock market. LOL

Not to worry, she’s out getting her IQ tested, won’t even see the comment.

“We are doomed. No more lunches out for 2 or 3 hrs with Fed people around. I think they’ll make some people work 8hr days. This is a catastrophe.”

Silly Willy Hoz…they don’t know it yet…but the FED “has set up shop” in the “Shadow Firms” and right before their eyes…the “debt people” will fade to “invisible”…and like Ripley’s Believe it or not…Wall Street will rally…right Txchic?

Does this have implications for golf outings and bridge games?

Does this mean no more 2:30 PM bounces??

That is a good question.