April 10, 2008

We Need To Have This Correction, Bring It On

Some housing bubble news from Wall Street, Washington and beyond. AP, “The U.S. economy has “turned down sharply” and is at risk for further weakening, US Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson said. Paulson also called it a ‘disgrace’ that there hasn’t been any legislation to reform oversight of Fannie and Freddie. And he said financial institutions shouldn’t look to government to raise capital but should raise it on their own.”

“He said a swoon in the housing sector, which was largely to blame for the rough patch, was necessary. ‘We need to have this correction. It’s not pleasant, but we need to have it,’ Paulson said in reference to declining U.S. house prices and homebuilding.”

The Wall Street Journal. “With criticism of Former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan more prevalent, one longtime thorn in his side couldn’t resist weighing in.”

“‘He protests too loudly of the criticism that is justly due him,’ Sen. Jim Bunning of Kentucky said after reading a lengthy article about Mr. Greenspan’s efforts to address his critics in Tuesday’s Wall Street Journal. ‘I’ve never seen someone who doesn’t think he needs defending defend himself so much,’ he told The Wall Street Journal.”

“‘On this latest housing debacle and boom, holding rates too low for too long led to the boom and to the bust,’ he said.”

“Mr. Bunning admits he didn’t tell Mr. Greenspan at the time it was holding rates too low. His own lack of foresight, however, isn’t a reason to be less critical of the Fed, he says.”

“‘If they don’t have a more sophisticated way of gauging monetary policy and the economy than an ordinary member of the House or Senate banking committee… we should do away with the Fed,’ Mr. Bunning said.”

Finfacts Ireland. “The world’s biggest banks on Wednesday publicly accepted much of the blame for the credit crisis as they seek to head-off demands for more regulation.”

“The Institute of International Finance, representing more than 375 of the world’s largest financial companies, acknowledged ‘major points of weaknesses in business practices,’ including bankers’ pay and the management of risk.”

“The report says that market changes that have both catalyzed and resulted from the growth of the ‘originate-to-distribute’ business model have created incentives for both firms and individual employees that have, in some cases, conflicted with sound underwriting practices, realization of risk-management goals, or the long-term interests of shareholders, reflecting, in part, the emphasis on short-term profitability in financial reporting and bonus payouts.”

The Arab News. “Real estate prices in Riyadh have increased by 40 to 90 percent in recent months, but analysts said property prices in the Kingdom were still the lowest compared to neighboring GCC countries.”

“Suleiman Al-Amri, chairman of a real estate company, said prices of real estate in some areas of Riyadh have increased by 90 percent. ‘This is really frightening.’”

“He said he believed that real estate prices in the Kingdom were much lower compared to neighboring countries. ‘This indicates that real estate prices in the Kingdom are still normal,’ he added.”

“Al-Amri spoke about growing prospects for investment in real estate in Riyadh as 70 percent of Saudis living in the city still do not own a house. ‘This situation will increase demand for real estate for building houses,’ he added.”

“Abdul Aziz Al-Jaad, a member of the real estate committee at the Riyadh Chamber of Commerce and Industry, said the tremendous hike in prices would discourage many Saudis from purchasing land. ‘They will wait until the prices come down,’ he added.”

The Geelong Advertiser from Australia. “Greenspan’s defence of his record as US Federal Reserve chairman can shed some light on the outlook for housing prices in Australia. The key is to see housing through the eyes of investors, as a financial asset.”

“‘The dramatic fall in real long-term interest rates statistically explains, and is the most likely major cause of, real estate capitalisation rates (rent as a percentage of a property’s value) that declined and converged across the globe,’ he said.”

“He said the reason for the slide in long-term bond yields was that the primary driver of those yields _ inflation, had fallen since surging in the 1970s. Low inflation means investors not only require less compensation for expected price rises but are less worried about volatility in investment returns. Accordingly, they will accept lower yields.”

“In other words, investors will pay nearly twice today what they would have in 1989 to receive a given dollar amount of rent.”

“The moral of this story is that, although housing prices might suffer a drop as the economy slows, there is no reason to believe prices have lost touch with economic fundamentals. There is no bubble to be burst.”

The Globe & Mail from Canada. “There’s no shortage of housing markets that look like bubbles waiting to burst, but economists say Canada has become one of the safer places in the developed world to own residential real estate.”

“In 2004, the U.S. was in the same state of ‘equilibrium’ Canada is now in, but blew it when banks started providing exotic mortgages, creating an artificial demand for houses, said Benjamin Tal, senior economist at CIBC World Markets Inc.”

“‘Remember that things were fine there [in the U.S.] in 2004. Then rates went up, and bankers with imagination created this bubble,’ he said.”

“Fewer speculators and more conservative lending practices have helped protect Canada from a big housing market downturn like that in the U.S. and some European markets, said Sherry Cooper, chief economist at BMO Nesbitt Burns Inc.”

“‘There’s been a real market for flipping homes [in those countries]. We just haven’t seen that develop at all in Toronto or even out West, where we have seen big increases in house prices,’ Ms. Cooper said.”

The Toronto Sun. “Compared to the first quarter of 2007, Toronto’s starts soared by 60% in the first three months of 2008, with the condo market still on fire. What you have to remember is: Today’s starts are yesterday’s sales.”

“After falling 14% in February, Toronto sales plunged another 27% in March. For the GTA sales were off 22%, with 6,631 homes changing hands last month, compared to 8,518 a year ago.”

“There will not be a crash, aka 1990s-style, says Ted Tsiakopoulos, Ontario economist with Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp. Price gains are also slowing. But Tsiakopoulous predicts Toronto’s condo market will remain strong, for a number of reasons.”

“Foreign investors continue to snap them up, empty nesters are also buying and first-time buyers are flocking to condo-apartments for affordability. Bottom line, he says: ‘Consumers are not speculating that prices are going south, which they are in the U.S.’”

The Christian Science Monitor. “In March, several hundred Toronto residents braved the cold to line up before the opening of the sales office of a new condo project. Certified checks in hand, they wanted to make sure they got their choice within Aura, a proposed 75-story residential tower scheduled to go up downtown.”

“This isn’t the first time condo sales debuts have drawn large crowds. In November 2007, speculative buyers waited patiently beside heat lamps to place deposits on another 80-story slab. Despite a last-minute price hike – apartments advertised for $2 million catapulted to $8 million – sales remained heavy.”

“In 2008, 21,000 condo units are expected to hit the market and an additional 35,000 units are under development, according to Urbanation. The city is second only to the New York City region, the epicenter of condo building in North America.”

“But with up to 40 percent of new condo units in Toronto being bought by speculative investors rather than homeowners, the conditions are in place for a realestate bubble to form, analysts say. Still, other observers remain cautiously upbeat.”

“‘The thing that marks the boom in Toronto is that unlike New York City or Miami at its height, prices here are still really affordable,’ says Jane Renwick, editor of Urbanation. ‘Still, there’s a sense that the city’s real estate market is now in the eighth year of a five-year cycle.’”

From Reuters. “Fewer Dutch houses were sold in the first quarter of 2008 as Dutch consumer confidence suffered from the credit crisis, but average prices still went up, the Dutch organisation of house agents NVM said on Thursday.”

“NVM Chairman Ger Hukker dismissed fears of a Dutch housing bubble after the International Monetary Fund said last week that for some countries, including the Netherlands, house prices had grown in the decade ending in 2007 to 30 percent higher than economic fundamentals would suggest.”

“Dutch Finance Minister Wouter Bos also rebuffed the IMF’s concerns on Thursday, saying in a statement that the Dutch housing market was not comparable to the U.S. market. ‘In the Netherlands we do not have a thriving market for risky mortgages as in the United States, where these were the cause of the financial crisis,’ Bos said.”

The Financial Times. “The Bank of Ireland Mortgages has e-mailed brokers with the update that its mortgage range, which includes standard, self-certification and buy-to-let products, will be pulled until the end of next week.”

“It said the move had been prompted by the need to preserve service levels after experiencing high demand for products after many lenders have pulled products out of the market.”

From Belfast Today. “In a fresh sign of the uncertain housing market, a Northern Ireland lender last night became the last UK bank offering 100 per cent mortgages.”

“The Ulster Bank withdrew its equivalent product yesterday following the last mainstream UK bank’s withdrawal from the high risk sector on Monday. Such mortgages do not require the buyer to pay any deposit and were a common feature during the credit boom.”

“Andrew Hagger, spokesman for Moneyfacts, said that no other UK bank was now offering 100 per cent mortgages. ‘This time last year there were about 40 mortgage providers offering 100 per cent mortgages,’ he said. ‘Previously, 125 per cent mortgages were available, but now the most you can borrow is 97 per cent of a property’s value and those deals are coming under pressure.’”

The Strabane Chronicle. “Tough challenges lie ahead for the North West’s construction workers as a downturn in the industry begins to take hold, a leading building company warned this week. Bridge Construction’s Contracts Manager Michael McCauley spoke out after the Construction Employers Federation warned that ‘hundreds, if not thousands’ of jobs are at risk if the slump continues.”

“Around 84,000 people work in the construction industry in the North of Ireland, generating as much as £3.5bn annually.”

“‘One of the main reasons is that mortgages are a lot harder to get now, so people have stopped buying. So the market is being flooded with properties that no one is purchasing and the demand for new builds just isn’t there. It is making life very difficult for the construction industry,’ Mr McCauley explained.”

“‘Largely what has happened is that over the past four or five years house prices here have been on the rise. But the investors who were snapping up the properties have moved on and what we are seeing now is the knock on effect of that,’ he said. ‘The next six months to a year will be a major challenge because things are looking fairly bleak.’”

From Kilkenny Today. “The asking price for houses being sold in Kilkenny fell 3.3% in the first quarter of this year, according to a leading property web site. The average asking price for a house in Kilkenny is now €321,025.”

“The most significant drops occurred in the most expensive areas of the country, with asking prices falling by up to 7% in three months in South County Dublin and Wicklow. The fall in asking prices in early 2008 marks a change from late 2007, when asking prices remained static, but many sellers accepted offers below the advertised price.”

“‘Sellers appear to have accepted that the downturn in the housing market may last a while,’ commented economist Ronan Lyons. ‘With huge numbers of property for sale in many parts of the country, sellers are now finding they have to reduce the asking price in order to attract interest from buyers.’”

The Guardian. “Property Ladder, that inspirational Channel 4 show in which aspiring developers buy a house, do it up and flog it on for what they confidently expect will be a massive profit, returned to our screens for a new series last night, accompanied by a rash of front pages predicting imminent meltdown in the UK housing market.”

“And could Property Ladder itself, presented by the irrepressible Sarah Beeny, not be profitably remodelled as Property Snake?”

“Not a bit of it, says Beeny brightly, though she concedes it is a pretty cool title for a show: ‘How to make money in a falling market - that could be a real winner. It’s not going to happen, though, first of all because despite all those headlines saying property prices are going to collapse by half, I genuinely think a crash is phenomenally unlikely to happen. Some property prices will fall - some already have - but I don’t believe the majority will.’”

“Second, she continues, ‘People who make property make money in all markets and in all countries. There’ll be a few more losers, sure: people have been under the impression that you really can’t fail, and over the past two years you could have bought somewhere, sat on a sunlounger for a month, sold it on and made a profit. So there’s been overconfidence, and there’ll be caution. But people have to live somewhere, and as long as you buy at the right price.’”

“Britain’s biggest and oldest home interiors mag, editor Isobel McKenzie-Price has few qualms about the knock-on effect of a housing slump either.”

“‘Obviously these are going to be tough times,’ she remarks. ‘But what we’ve really noticed over the past five years or so is that people don’t talk about their ‘home’ any more - they talk about their ‘property’. They’re hyper-aware that their house is their biggest asset, and what they’re interested in doing is making the most of it.’”

“‘There’s always going to be a market for these programmes,’ concludes a thoroughly bouncy Beeny. ‘I’m not saying mine will be among them, and there may not be as many of them as there are at the moment - which, I would be the first to admit, is a little bit excessive. It would be nice, just once in a while, to see something else on the telly for a change.’”

From BBC News. “The drop in house prices might be a disaster for many home-owners, but some first-time buyers see it as a godsend. Left behind by more than a decade of soaring property values, thousands of young workers look to a slump as their only hope of securing an affordable mortgage.”

“One frustrated young professional is 34-year-old Izzy Miyaghi from Birmingham. He has been trying to get his feet on the first rung of the property ladder for three years. But Izzy’s masters degree and £28,000-a-year job as a community education outreach officer have not helped him achieve his ambition.”

“With a typical flat in his area selling for £120,000, he believes only a housing recession will help him. ‘I can’t wait for the crash,’ he says. ‘Bring it on.’”

“‘People talk about the crisis in the property market. But the real crisis is that so many people can’t afford a home of their own,’ he said. ‘I’m not looking for an investment. I’m looking for somewhere to live. The sooner a correction comes along, the better.’”

“However, the falling cost of property may not be the immediate salvation many would-be home-owners are banking on. Jonathan Davis, managing director of chartered financial planners Armstrong Davis Ltd, predicted the credit crunch would eventually be good news for those priced out of the market - but advised first-time buyers to wait.”

“‘Prices are likely to fall by 30-40% over a four-year period nationally,’ he advises. ‘Don’t touch property with a bargepole for two or three years.’”"




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96 Comments »

Comment by yogurt
2008-04-10 11:43:54

“In 2004, the U.S. was in the same state of ‘equilibrium’ Canada is now in, but blew it when banks started providing exotic mortgages, creating an artificial demand for houses, said Benjamin Tal, senior economist at CIBC World Markets Inc.”

“‘Remember that things were fine there [in the U.S.] in 2004. Then rates went up, and bankers with imagination created this bubble,’ he said.”

Is any further comment needed on this clown? Readers of this blog know full well that the US was already severely overvalued in 2004.

But CIBC didn’t. Of all Canadian banks, they have taken the biggest losses on US mortgage securities. Now there’s an authoritative voice for you.

Comment by sm_landlord
2008-04-10 13:27:22

In the U.S. in 2004, we had just finished the solid rocket burn and were preparing for orbital injection. Main engine throttles were still at 110% with plenty of fuel left in the main tank. And the crew was injecting another dose of amphetamine.

Yup, things were just fine here in the U.S.of A. in 2004.

[snark off]

 
Comment by jbunniii
2008-04-10 14:34:35

Good thing that the Canadian economy is so independent of ours that their house prices will remain strong even as we sink into recession.

 
Comment by Peter Wiener
2008-04-10 20:26:12

Benjamin Tal is an idiot as are most other ‘analysts’ and ‘economists’ that work for Canadian banks and brokers. Simply lap dogs to the investment industries needs and nothing more.

Comment by Daniel
2008-04-11 08:30:25

And yet these lapdogs and idiots have so far helped to make sure that the problems in the US are not occuring in Canada

 
 
 
Comment by EmperorNorton_II
2008-04-10 11:46:39

Beeny Babys are GOOD investments…

“Not a bit of it, says Beeny brightly, though she concedes it is a pretty cool title for a show: ‘How to make money in a falling market - that could be a real winner. It’s not going to happen, though, first of all because despite all those headlines saying property prices are going to collapse by half, I genuinely think a crash is phenomenally unlikely to happen. Some property prices will fall - some already have - but I don’t believe the majority will.’”

Comment by Lost in Utah
2008-04-10 12:58:22

Oil City will become the capitol of Beeny Baby Brightly Boosters…

Comment by OCDan
2008-04-10 13:40:44

I hear they have cheap homes there.

Do they have any jobs and jobs that have benes?

Comment by Lost in Utah
2008-04-10 13:59:43

They’re getting ready to open a B.Baby factory, so I’ve been told…

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Comment by Mr. Drysdale
2008-04-10 14:26:49

Do they have any jobs and jobs that have benes?

I hear there is strong demand for washboard players in jug bands.

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Comment by Front Range Bob
2008-04-10 14:21:44

“Some property prices will fall - some already have - but I don’t believe the majority will.”

I give Ms. Beeny a Pathetic Shill Tool rating of 8, with NAR’s resident buttboy Yun being a 10 on the scale.

I would have given her a Buffoonish Clown rating, but I reserve that one for members of the Fed and past, current, and, likely, future Administrations.

 
 
Comment by az_owner
2008-04-10 11:47:29

“‘He protests too loudly of the criticism that is justly due him,’ Sen. Jim Bunning of Kentucky said after reading a lengthy article about Mr. Greenspan’s efforts to address his critics in Tuesday’s Wall Street Journal. ‘I’ve never seen someone who doesn’t think he needs defending defend himself so much,’ he told The Wall Street Journal.”

“‘On this latest housing debacle and boom, holding rates too low for too long led to the boom and to the bust,’ he said.”

“Mr. Bunning admits he didn’t tell Mr. Greenspan at the time it was holding rates too low. His own lack of foresight, however, isn’t a reason to be less critical of the Fed, he says.”

“‘If they don’t have a more sophisticated way of gauging monetary policy and the economy than an ordinary member of the House or Senate banking committee… we should do away with the Fed,’ Mr. Bunning said.”

———————

Nice!

However, I don’t think AG can be blamed for FORCING banks to make bad loans or FORCING borrowers to take them. He simply led the stupid horses to water…how is it that MOST people were able to refuse to take a drink from the Kool-Aid laced stream?

Comment by Michael Fink
2008-04-10 12:01:04

I am getting VERY sick of seeing Greenspan on TV every other day saying that “nobody could have seen this” or that he is not even somewhat partly to blame. Come on, in his role, there is probably no ONE other person who is more to blame for the housing crisis. He could have averted this problem as chief of the Fed, and he could have been much more vocal when discussing this issue.

Frankly, if a highly respected (by Joe6P) offical came on TV (forget about the paper, reading is too much work) and would just say “Buying a home that costs more then 3X your household income will lead to foreclosure” that would be a massive help!

We (us included) tend to overcomplicate this issue. It’s really simple, look at your yearly income, multiply by 3, and that’s the house you can reasonably afford. If you have a massive downpayment, perhaps there can be an adjustment, but other then that; there’s no reason to get caught up in all the esoteric calculations of affordability.

Just run a public service commercial; that would have had a massive effect on this bubble, and on stopping the greater fools from jumping in over their heads and prologing the pain.

But, that’s just way too easy, so instead, we get all these crazy equations to determine affordability; all of which, seem to overstate (sometimes grossly, the one the RE agent used when looking for my rental qualified me at 9X income) the amount of home one can purchase.

Most people can multiply by 3 (at least, I hope so!).

Comment by Fuzzy Bear
2008-04-10 13:28:49

I am getting VERY sick of seeing Greenspan on TV every other day saying that “nobody could have seen this” or that he is not even somewhat partly to blame.

The first indication that I had that a bubble was about to be created was during the state of the union address to the nation by President Bush followed by the drop of interest rates to 1% by Greenspan.

The creation of “ownership” by President Bush meant to me that the housing market was being setup as a way to grow the economy much the way the dot com era was during the Clinton administration.

IMO, this was the first sign of a creation of a housing bubble market to build up the economy that had been nearly wiped out with the bursting of the dot com bubble.

Comment by Front Range Bob
2008-04-10 14:26:51

“It’s really simple, look at your yearly income, multiply by 3, and that’s the house you can reasonably afford.”

You say “3,” I say 2 to 2.5. Currently, my wife and I are at 0.8 on our mortgage, and that amount still seems unreasonable to me.

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Comment by Spykeeboi
2008-04-11 09:18:51

Rice: “Nobody could have imagined terrorists flying planes into buildings.”
Bush: “Nobody could have predicted the levies would be breached.”
Greenspan: “Nobody could have seen the housing bust coming.”

We seriously have to start getting people with more foresight into office…

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Comment by DinOR
2008-04-10 12:02:07

Also noteworthy that Bunning was the lone dissenting voice on the most recent bail-out palooza. One guy!

If we can somehow survive this (by… whatever means) I certainly hope the mortgage industry looks NOTHING like what you see today! How is it possible to be at the core of such a monumental meltdown and survive intact? That would be a first.

Comment by NovaMtgeBkr
2008-04-10 13:27:00

As a young little league pitcher growing up in the ’60’s in Detroit, I idolized Jim Bunning and proudly wore his number 14 for several seasons until he was traded away.

Way to go Jim!

 
 
Comment by potential buyer
2008-04-10 13:02:36

I agree! IMO Banks are predominantly to blame. Interest could have been zero, and if there were no liar loans, etc. then loans still could not have been made.

Comment by DinOR
2008-04-10 13:24:23

Oh! Now THERE’S something I’ve never thought of! Absolutely solid point. Just like all those “With 1% Financing” the car dealers always seemed to offer but “I” never quite qualified for!

I’m sorry, were there bidding wars down at the auto dealership? Excellent, excellent point. Thank you.

 
 
 
Comment by re: mnant
2008-04-10 11:48:06

“‘… we should do away with the Fed,’ Senator. Bunning said.”

Buy that man a PBR!

Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-04-10 11:53:54

Aw, let’s buy him something better than that. Before he went into politics, he was a star pitcher for the Philadelphia Phillies. So let’s get him something with a Pennsylvania flavor. Like a nice, cold Yuengling.

Comment by re: mnant
2008-04-10 12:08:10

Senator Bunning does have some amazing baseball accomplishments. He threw two no-hitters (in different leagues, and one of them was a perfect game), along with a nine-pitch/three-strikeout half-inning (one of only five ever).

However, I would argue that throwing out the idea that the Federal Reserve should be tossed is more noteworthy.

Comment by Bad Chile
2008-04-10 12:25:15
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Comment by re: mnant
2008-04-10 19:12:32

Nice catch; I was wrong.

 
 
Comment by EmperorNorton_II
2008-04-10 12:30:08

Bunning was a good pitcher, but he was no Dock Ellis…

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Comment by Rintoul
2008-04-10 14:27:37

…because he didn’t do as much acid..?

 
 
Comment by spike66
2008-04-10 12:46:37

‘If they don’t have a more sophisticated way of gauging monetary policy and the economy than an ordinary member of the House or Senate banking committee… we should do away with the Fed,’ Mr. Bunning said.”

That’s a pretty amazing comment by Bunning. So the Congressmen or Senators on the banking committee are too unsophisticated to spot the biggest housing bubble in American history–then why don’t they resign from the committee is they know so little. Bunning is no saint…he’s just trying to deflect some well-earned criticism. Abolish the Banking Committee, if they are so damned clueless.

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Comment by OCDan
2008-04-10 13:47:17

Forget buying him any of that.

Let’s all pitch (yes, the pun is there) in for a house in Oil City for him. That way he can go back to PA.

 
 
Comment by In Colorado
2008-04-10 13:37:46

He’d better be careful, he could end up wearing cement shoes in the Potomac.

 
 
Comment by smf
2008-04-10 11:52:46

“‘Remember that things were fine there [in the U.S.] in 2004. Then rates went up, and bankers with imagination created this bubble,’ he said.”

BS, BS, BS.

The more I have checked the market and prices, the more I realized that 2004 was the PEAK for high prices w/o question.

2005 brought higher LISTED prices, but lower SELLING prices. When I noticed that, I realized that the bubble was over.

Comment by DinOR
2008-04-10 12:20:02

smf,

Precisely. Back in late 2005 when Rich Toscano (Prof. Piggington) suggested that not only had San Diego’s market peaked, but may have peaked much earlier than most of us may have suspected he was met with staunch criticism! Well more and more ( as many here predicted ) 2005 was the time to be SELLING! Not* buying. Can’t wait to see that smugness slapped right off of 2005’s buyers. Some of the most smug of all.

Comment by smf
2008-04-10 12:32:06

I had two friends who sold in 2005.

1. Friend wanted to list at $340K. Realtor convinced him to go at $360K. House sold for $320K. (House already in foreclosure in 2008)

2. Friend wanted to list at $400K. Realtor convinced him to go at $420K. House sold for $370K.

The last year of the bubble was in 2004, and the first signs of distress came out in 2005.

Comment by Bill in Carolina
2008-04-10 12:50:48

Depends on where. In some areas, prices were going up until early 2006. “All real estate is local.”

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Comment by NoSingleOne
2008-04-10 14:51:42

In Anchorage, it was mid-to late ‘06.

 
 
Comment by DinOR
2008-04-10 12:51:39

smf,

I’ve had to deal with my share of grief (from the Mrs.) regarding our sale which took place on the last day of 2003 and was actually recorded in Jan 2004. Since Oregon had been more deeply affected during the recession we didn’t join the party until later. I…. s-u-p-p-o-s-e I could have held out longer but w/ each passing foreclosure/default I’m looking ’smarter’ by the day! :)

The only mistake I have to explain is why I was judging the Oregon market based on what was happening nationally. Guilty as charged. Just as with your observations my wife has begun to notice that there were no “huge paydays” coming out of our former neighborhood. I actually challenged her to show me (1) former neighbor that bailed out with a check as big as they’d imagined and could only find one guy that apparently lucked out. The balance is sitting and going through all the same phases we’ve grown accustomed to. Listed w/ realtor, FSBO, lease2own and even a sprinkling of defaults. This very topic gives me more of a sense of vindication than all the write-off’s put together. IMHO.

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Comment by DinOR
2008-04-10 12:56:50

Bill,

I can agree w/ that but in essence what smf shared speaks to much of the nation. Oregon (and we part of The Union) was just one of those odd, angry shots. We may ‘look’ big but there are burroughs in NY that have more people than we do in the entire state. We’re not even a rounding error, and that’s what made it tough to gauge? Normally we suffer first and longest.

 
 
Comment by bestwishes
2008-04-10 13:43:36

Market peak in Connecticut was August 2005. It’s most definetely declined from there. So much inventory, mostly McMansions which are still grossly overpriced. Most of these McMansions were built in the past several years and are nothing but cardboard boxes, Home Depot specials, with lots of square footage. Oh yeah, forgot to mention the granite countertops. Wow.

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Comment by EmperorNorton_II
2008-04-10 12:43:26

We listed our chateau in July 05′, and wondered if we were a bit late in doing so…

Only had 1 offer, but then again, we only had 1 house.

Sold it in a month, and never looked back…

Comment by DinOR
2008-04-10 13:02:56

Thus the title… Emperor (your Emperor) :)

If I was truthful, some that bought in 2005 in OR did quite well. Assuming they were in very trendy and popular areas and had the good fortune to have “one shot, one kill”. These were the lucky ones. Even still, to capture all the benefit the tax code has to offer you’d have had to have bought on 2 JAN 05 and sold on 2 JAN 07 with very little wiggle room at all. Narrow window.

Comment by smf
2008-04-10 13:46:30

Those that got lucky the first time around probably counted on their luck to keep the magic going.

I highly doubt that after this shakeout many will maintain their ‘RE millionaire’ status.

Greed will get you everytime. Those who did great probably thought that they could do better now. And some are still putting their eggs in the foreclosure bandwagon.

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Comment by DinOR
2008-04-10 14:30:51

“I highly doubt that after this shakeout many will maintain their ‘RE millionaire’ status”

Was that b-o-r-r-o-w-e-d millions or ….? LOL

Absolutely agree. Start with Rich Dad and work your way on down. Sam Zell, Trump and a handful of REIT’s. Insofar as going back after the battle to bayonet the wounded? Buddy you may not live long enough.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Bombo_Buster
2008-04-10 11:52:46

It is always interesting the degree of denial in the non-US bubble markets, such as Canada. “It is different here…” + a lame excuse why the market is “immune” or else. They are just behind in the cycle and really they will not have any excuses of not being forewarned. Actually I see UK and Canada with more inherent risk, since a downturn will be probably more severe than over here.

Comment by az_owner
2008-04-10 12:01:37

Probably why Uncle Buck will have the last laugh…

And make sure that your Euros are marked with a “D”…if you insist on holding them.

 
Comment by Groundhogday
2008-04-10 12:33:53

There is hardly a locality that isn’t suffering from denial. In Phoenix, home prices might be falling but NOT in my neighborhood. In cities that have already seen large price drops, “we must be at the bottom.” In cities with minor price drops, “we aren’t anything like LA and Florida.” Now just extend the denial across borders… UK was sure the US experience didn’t apply as recently as a few months back. Canada, Spain, Australia…

 
 
Comment by EmperorNorton_II
2008-04-10 12:10:20

The Senate has blessed the $15 billion homebuilder bailout package, by a 84 to 12 margin of error.

Even whilst dying, the corp’se still calls the shots…

For now~

Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-04-10 12:24:59

But Mr. Market will deliver the final smackdown into the grave.

Comment by DinOR
2008-04-10 13:17:15

“The Final Smackdown!”

Starring ALL your REIC favorites!

No seriously, we should all work on a collaborative effort script, “Housing Boom” ( the REAL story! ) only instead of a big budget release it would be more like a “Golan-Globus Production” like the Chuck Norris cheapies ( and countless others ) Sub-title it “The REIC that wouldn’t die!”

Our hero leaves in a once sleepy but well kept neighborhood without a single koi pond. He just wants to be left out of the ‘Lowe’s commercial’ that has become his life… but now they’ve pushed too far!

Comment by DinOR
2008-04-10 13:18:45

lives?

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Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-04-10 14:43:37

I nominate Olympiagal to be the head scriptwriter.

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Comment by GH
2008-04-10 12:44:58

I love the $7000 tax credit for buying a foreclosure. More downward pressure on all sales which do not qualify. What a bunch of idiots!

Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-04-10 13:08:28

That $7k amount will be eaten up rapidly. Foreclosed properties tend to need a lot of work.

Comment by Groundhogday
2008-04-10 14:20:21

This just sends that many MORE homes into foreclosure. Of course the senators know that, but who can pass on a good bank bailout.

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Comment by potential buyer
2008-04-10 14:31:45

OK Gurus — why does it send more homes into foreclosure?

 
Comment by Front Range Bob
2008-04-10 14:47:45

“why does it send more homes into foreclosure?”

I was wondering that myself. If anything, it seems like the credit would provide temporary resistance to price declines.

 
Comment by jbunniii
2008-04-10 14:53:36

Won’t it essentially decrease the values of all not-yet-foreclosed properties by $7k? Thus creating more underwater borrowers, and eventually more foreclosures.

 
Comment by GH
2008-04-10 14:54:56

If anything, it seems like the credit would provide temporary resistance to price declines.
Foreclosures will have a $7000 price advantage going in, which will force every other property on the market to compete, further driving down prices and thus increasing foreclosures by forcing more people upside-down.

 
Comment by Shizo
2008-04-10 15:00:14

Um, let me go out on a limb here… Now when you “buy” (insert “rent”) a foreclosure, there is a built in $7K gain (insert “loss”) due to two things: 1) All the adjacent homes are now valued at that much less due to the “free” (insert “chains”) money. 2) Now do you think for one second the house you just “bought” is going to retain its value? Be sure you price in the $7K loss from the start.

So effectively this action will reduce neighboring values as well as the foreclosed home as well. It is funny how they are treating homes like cars these days, and the same is holding true. They are now depreciating assets, like a car. Another way to think of it is this. You buy a car that has an incentive of $2000 off- do you think you could sell the car for the original price? What do you think just happend to the guy that bought last month at “full” price? What happened to last year’s model?

This is great news for us! While the timeline just grew (which sucks unless you are saving depreciated dollars because you don’t have many now), this will force down prices by $7K right from the start of the program! WEEEEEE! I’m really loving stupidity at this point.

Like the article says, “Bring it on”… Oh crap, I sound like douche, um, I mean Bush.

 
Comment by JJ
2008-04-10 15:01:00

I think the idea is that there will be a slightly higher demand for foreclosures so they will sell more quickly. Banks are holding off from foreclosing because the foreclosures are not selling. If they start selling banks will be more likely to go through the proceedings.

 
Comment by JJ
2008-04-10 15:10:24

Foreclosures will have a $7000 price advantage going in, which will force every other property on the market to compete, further driving down prices and thus increasing foreclosures by forcing more people upside-down.

I disagree with this statement. If demand for houses stay the same then, yes, the fact that more demand will migrate to the foreclosures will put downward pressure on the others. However, the increased demand for foreclosures could come simply from people who would not be in the market otherwise.

Keep in mind the tax credit is sort of like a cash back option. The way the stupid people look at it dollar for dollar that’s a lot more powerful that simply $7k off the price. Consider the fact that in many cases the lack of downpayment is the problem. Now they can avoid paying taxes with each paycheck, save it for a downpayment, and not worry about a big tax bill at the end of the year. You have to think about how the stupid people behave. This could increase demand significantly.

But, anyway, I still stick to the opinion that banks will be more willing to foreclose if they can dump the house quicker.

 
Comment by shizo
2008-04-11 00:07:31

What ever (s)he said. Where do I sign? :)

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Al
2008-04-10 12:15:42

“There’s been a real market for flipping homes [in those countries]. We just haven’t seen that develop at all in Toronto or even out West, where we have seen big increases in house prices,’ Ms. Cooper said.”

There are flippers here too. They haven’t seen because they’ve firmly closed their eyes while sipping their koolaid. The main ingredient for a brutal bubble is in place, which is the denial that we are well along the inflating stage.

Comment by yogurt
2008-04-10 12:36:55

Not only is there flipping galore going on in the West, properties that haven’t even been built yet are being flipped (selling pre-sale assignments).

Cooper is well-known for spouting idiocies. Back when the Canadian $ was worth about US$ .65, she said it should be pegged to the USD. The two currencies are now worth the same. Had it been pegged at that time Canada would have experienced severe inflation over the last 5 years, just like all the countries that have currencies pegged to the USD.

 
Comment by living_in_bubbleland
2008-04-10 12:54:49

There is no bubble! Just look at this beautiful shack you can buy in a bad neighborhood in Vancouver!! What a great investment opportunity! Better keep drinking that koolaid losers, I hope you choke on it. A crash won’t be coming out west till after the olympics, that will mark 11 years of this stupidity and greed. I hope to have skipped the country by then.

 
Comment by CrackerJim
2008-04-10 13:34:06

Statement 1 from article:
“There’s been a real market for flipping homes [in those countries]. We just haven’t seen that develop at all in Toronto or even out West, where we have seen big increases in house prices,’ Ms. Cooper said.”

Directly conflicting statement 2:
“But with up to 40 percent of new condo units in Toronto being bought by speculative investors rather than homeowners, the conditions are in place for a realestate bubble to form, analysts say. Still, other observers remain cautiously upbeat.”

 
 
Comment by nhz
2008-04-10 12:33:24

Dutch Finance Minister Wouter Bos: ‘In the Netherlands we do not have a thriving market for risky mortgages as in the United States, where these were the cause of the financial crisis’

Of course we don’t have risky mortgages in Netherlands :0 All those I/O, 100-125%, 10x stated income etc. etc. mortgages have ZERO risk because Dutch home prices can never go down - despite the fact that prices are 6-10x higher than 15 years ago, while incomes are only 1.6x higher. And even if homeprices stop climbing there is a semi-gov fund providing free mortgage insurance, so there is still zero risk. And if even that doesn’t work Mr. Bos (from the Labour party) will gladly spend all the Dutch tax money to keep the housingmarket levitating forever, despite the fact that his party vowed to stop the stupid Dutch HMD before they joined the new government. There is NO housingbubble in the Netherlands!!

As Ben and other posters already mentioned, the amount of denial in the non-US bubblemarkets is hilarious.

 
Comment by Poshboy
2008-04-10 12:35:09

Found this in my e-mail today. At least one Senator gets it.–PB, Arlington, Va.

April 10, 2008
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
2008-025

BUNNING: SENATE HOUSING BILL IS NOT THE SOLUTION
‘Does nothing to keep people in their homes’

WASHINGTON, D.C. — U.S. Senator Jim Bunning (R-KY) today issued the following statement opposing the Foreclosure Prevention Act of 2008 that was approved in the Senate by a vote of 84-12.

“The bill approved by the Senate today does nothing to keep people in their homes and it will not solve the crisis at hand. In fact, the bill will encourage foreclosures.

“Instead of providing billions of dollars in bailout money to homebuilders and banks, we should be working to cut taxes and create opportunities for economic growth that will put more money back in the pockets of working families for them to spend on things like housing. One proposal I attempted to offer to the bill would have helped more people keep their homes by cutting taxes on home mortgage refinancing. Unfortunately the managers of the bill would not allow a vote on my amendment.

“This bill hurts responsible homeowners and rewards those who made bad decisions. The federal government should not be in the business of bailing out homeowners and banks who gambled on home prices and lost.”

###

Comment by NoSingleOne
2008-04-10 15:01:52

I am confused…

When I listen to Republicans, the key to stimulating the economy during a recession is to “cut taxes”. When the economy is booming, they say we need to “cut taxes”.

Fine, I hate taxes. But I don’t believe in deficit spending either.

When is a Republican going to say “lets take in what we spend”? Little people like me call it “living within our means”.

 
 
Comment by Bye FL
2008-04-10 12:38:14

” By the way, for every 1% that interest rates increase, it erases approximately all of the benefits of waiting for property values to decrease 10%. The payments are virtually identical.”

Really? Say a house costs $200k with 6% interest. At 9% that house would be $146k. In reality prices will drop much more than that due to the return of 20% down and strict lending standards. Realistically, that house may be worth as little as $50k to $70k. Even it it bottomed out at $150k, don’t forget that 20% down of $200k is $40k. Your downpayment would be much stronger on a $150k house and you would need only $110k financing instead of $160k. With a much smaller $110k principle, you could take a 15 year loan and pay it off in less than 10 years. You could also refinance if interest rates go back down. If you bought your house with 6% interest rates and the rates go up, your resell value will drop so low interest rates are actually *not* good because this only means a higher principle!

Finally you could usually just rent for a much lower cost than owning when house prices are bubbly. There is no “equity” for the fools who buy at the peak so renting is throwing away less money than “owning”

Comment by In Colorado
2008-04-10 13:45:46

” By the way, for every 1% that interest rates increase, it erases approximately all of the benefits of waiting for property values to decrease 10%. The payments are virtually identical.”

Kind of true, but prices will drop a lot more than 10% and mortgage rates aren’t going anywhere right now.

Comment by Groundhogday
2008-04-10 15:01:50

And if mortgage rates due go up 1%, we will see a consequent drop in home prices… in ADDITION to the prices drops we are already seeing.

Comment by In Colorado
2008-04-10 15:29:46

So true!

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Comment by aqius
2008-04-10 14:28:45

byeFla

that was the first post in which you have not mentioned moving to Oil City, PA. Congrats! I can now call-off the intervention we had planned.

(By the way, yer 2nd grade teacher says you still have an overdue book never returned & subsequent fine w/interest. Please pay ASAP as the school district needs new Aeron chairs for the teachers lounge).

 
 
Comment by EmperorNorton_II
2008-04-10 12:50:37

“We Need To Have This Correction, Bring It On”

Was that edict from the ‘decider?

Comment by sm_landlord
2008-04-10 13:35:47

Paulson for President?

 
 
Comment by RJT
2008-04-10 12:58:47

“‘There’s been a real market for flipping homes [in those countries]. We just haven’t seen that develop at all in Toronto or even out West, where we have seen big increases in house prices,’ Ms. Cooper said.”

This is by far the dumbest comment yet by a Canadian. For the past 3 years, the national pastime (at least in the West) was flipping houses and condos.

The bubble is due to locals not being able to afford the current inflated prices, not becuase of mortgages (those were symptoms, but not the desease)

Nobody in Canada yet has figured out that if your local population spends 80% of thier take home pay on interest, property taxes, and condo fees, the rest of the economy will suffer…

Comment by jbunniii
2008-04-10 14:57:56

the rest of the economy will suffer

Why, doesn’t Canada have HELOCs?

 
 
Comment by robmypro
2008-04-10 13:02:56

If I remember correctly, the role of the Federal Reserve is “price stability”. Take a look around. Do you see anything stable about prices?

The Fed should be fired. They failed miserably.

But…a country that gives so much power to one man, as this country gave to Greenie, deserves what they get. This country is just dumb.

Dumb dumb dumb.

The USA is getting their Darwin award each and every day, and it is WELL deserved.

This country was doomed when Europe starting throwing out their trash and they all ended up here.

Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-04-10 13:10:39

Didn’t Europe also send some of its “trash” to Australia? And, IIRC, being a descended from the original convict/settlers is something to brag about Down Under.

 
Comment by Front Range Bob
2008-04-10 14:39:03

“This country was doomed when Europe starting throwing out their trash and they all ended up here.”

As someone who is part Native American, I wholeheartedly agree with you.

By the way, you’re in the “trash” group too, in case you didn’t realize it. Feel free to leave any time, slick.

Comment by robmypro
2008-04-10 15:24:16

That hurt Bob.

 
 
Comment by champagne2sewage
2008-04-11 07:43:12

The Fed should be fired. They failed miserably.

While I agree, you seem to imply there were hired in the first place…

 
 
Comment by EmperorNorton_II
2008-04-10 13:13:54

“The roots of violence are wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, and politics without principals.”

Mahatma Gandhi

Comment by DinOR
2008-04-10 13:19:56

Yep, that about covers it.

 
 
Comment by EmperorNorton_II
2008-04-10 13:24:03

“If some lose their whole fortunes, they will drag many more down with them . . . believe me that the whole system of credit and finance which is carried on here at Rome in the Forum, is inextricably bound up with the revenues of the Asiatic province. If Those revenues are destroyed, our whole system of credit will come down with a crash.”

Cicero

 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2008-04-10 13:26:16

“‘The dramatic fall in real long-term interest rates statistically explains, and is the most likely major cause of, real estate capitalisation rates (rent as a percentage of a property’s value) that declined and converged across the globe,’ [Greenspin] said.”

This begs the question: is he really this oblivious/stupid, or is he really lying through his teeth?

Long-term rates and inflation have been low for much longer than real-estate has been booming.

 
Comment by Awaiting Bubble Rubble
2008-04-10 13:32:02

I am going to be in the EU next month and work on selling a property in Paris. If anybody has inputs on price stability in Paris, please get in touch with me, hikerdadlvp at yahoo.

 
Comment by Real Estate Refugee
2008-04-10 13:34:37

Just found this great article by my favorite financial writer. For those looking for greater clarity…
http://money.cnn.com/2008/03/28/news/economy/disaster_sloan.fortune/index.htm

Comment by Michael Emmel
2008-04-10 14:34:37

Fantastic article. My only question is how is this tax payer going to pay for all this. We are talking I believe about the same people with underwater home loans, credit card debt and no savings. And these same people are getting eaten with price inflation on gasoline and foods.

The problem with this whole scenario is the assumption that a US tax payer exists to pick up the tab.

 
 
Comment by Ben Jones
2008-04-10 14:13:43

I was surprised the CSM reporter didn’t follow up on this:

‘The thing that marks the boom in Toronto is that unlike New York City or Miami at its height, prices here are still really affordable,’ says Jane Renwick, editor of Urbanation. ‘Still, there’s a sense that the city’s real estate market is now in the eighth year of a five-year cycle.’

Comment by Bye FL
2008-04-10 15:06:31

Since when is an old 1500 square foot house at $400k which my dad’s cousin bought considered “affordable” He had to put down $200k to afford the mortgage. Bye bye 5 year’s worth of retirment. He is going to lose his hard earned/saved $200k.

As for rent, there is rent control but the rent is still high, like $1200/month for a nice 1/1 high rise apartment. Not worth it and besides from NW PA, I am driving distance to Toronto anyway to visit relatives.

 
 
Comment by Bye FL
2008-04-10 15:00:14

” Comment by GH
2008-04-10 12:44:58

I love the $7000 tax credit for buying a foreclosure. More downward pressure on all sales which do not qualify. What a bunch of idiots!”

Itll just cause foreclosures to cost $7000 more. There goes the so called tax credit. The gubbermint threw away $7k for nothing.

 
Comment by SDGreg
2008-04-10 15:55:16

“Greenspan’s defense of his record as US Federal Reserve chairman can shed some light on the outlook for housing prices in Australia. The key is to see housing through the eyes of investors, as a financial asset.”

“The moral of this story is that, although housing prices might suffer a drop as the economy slows, there is no reason to believe prices have lost touch with economic fundamentals. There is no bubble to be burst.”

Greenspan’s an increasing menace. Not content with the damage he’s done here, he’s peddling his snake oil around the world.

 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-04-10 17:37:25

You’ll take my condo, when you can pry it out of my cold dead market hands…

“In March, several hundred Toronto residents braved the cold to line up before the opening of the sales office of a new condo project. Certified checks in hand, they wanted to make sure they got their choice within Aura, a proposed 75-story residential tower scheduled to go up downtown.”

 
Comment by ken in tampa
2008-04-11 07:33:15

In Tampa, the foreclosures are selling OK. Some banks are reducing the price 10k a month ’till they go. In the Brandon area, these are going for about 145k for a 3/2/2 in a nice neighborhood, these homes were going for 200k and up at the peak. The used-home sellers must be livid, they are holding out, and many have pulled homes from the market waiting for the ‘bounce back’ which will never happen.

The foreclosures seem to be setting a price point at which homes will sell in a given area, and gov’t plans to buy up these homes, at inflated prices I’m sure, are just another attempt to prop up prices.

 
Comment by AZ_Scorched
2008-04-11 13:01:08

thanks to this blog and all the knowledgeable posters my wife thinks that i am the smartest person on earth!

 
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