Bits Bucket And Craigslist Finds For April 20, 2008
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The Housing Bubble
Examining the home price boom and its effect on owners, lenders, regulators, realtors and the economy as a whole.
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Hey guys,
If I could lean on the collective wisdom here I’d be very grateful …
I just found out on Friday that the lady who babysits our daughter, and her husband, bought a place at the end of 2005 with no money down and are now (surprise!) in a world of trouble. It was very weird for me to suddenly find myself talking to one of these classic cases: recent immigrants, didn’t have a lawyer, had the papers switched on them at closing for a fat $20K in closing costs, huge second mortgage at 11.5% interest, on and on …
They were pretty stupid about getting into the mess but have been creative and industrious about making their payments (multiple jobs, running a boarding house for a local school out of the upstairs, etc.). They could go on like this but (a) they’re one contrary event away from the whole thing coming down around their ears (b) they have two kids, who I really like, that are going to bear the brunt of this craziness for the next ten years.
I talked to her about walking away, since they don’t have any equity in the place, but they don’t want to do that. As I thought about it further I realized that that’s not entirely nuts: the bulk of their income is through the boarding house, and if they lose the house they can’t replace that income, to the point where it’s not clear to me that they’d be better off in the short term, regardless of the long-term benefit. Put another way, they’ve actually got the place cash-flowing, though it is a miserable and precarious kind of cash flow. (Students only stay there for a few weeks to a month each, so they can’t project long-term income from the arrangement, and moreover it’s not clear to me that the income will be enough to cover the first time they need a new roof, for example.)
I can’t make walking-away decisions for them, but at any rate it’s clear to me that they’d have a much better chance of making it if they could get that second mortgage renegotiated or refinanced at a lower rate. They’ve tried talking to banks, and tried to apply for Massachusetts’ recently instituted homeowner aid program, apparently with no success (i have no idea whether this is because they haven’t applied competently, or because their income is either unreliable or not entirely documented, or what). One thing that they haven’t tried is threatening to walk away, which I’ve seen anecdotal evidence for as a workable strategy. But no matter what, and especially if they try the threaten-to-walk approach, I think they need a lawyer (and probably a tax accountant) to help them through it.
Which brings me to my question. What is the best way to go about finding a good Massachusetts lawyer who can competently help them to shore up their situation? The last thing they need is to pay for one more semi-useless intermediary; they have cash to divert for this purpose but only if it pays off, basically.
I’ll be glad to do the legwork of making calls, doing research etc. for them, if folks would be so kind as to suggest what to look for, how best to separate the wheat from the chaff, etc. Or if someone has a specific recommendation to make, maybe they could send it to Ben and he could forward it? I really would be very grateful.
BTW, this isn’t going to stop me from calling my congressmen every few weeks with my ongoing “no bailouts” barrage. But like I said these guys have kids, and as long as there’s any help out there to be had, I want to see them get it.
thanks,
WAFK
Do you have any idea how much their 2nd MTG is for? One strategy that I would consider (if their credit is not shot) is to get a few CCs and “balance transfer” the 2nd over to them. They can get a MUCH better rate on CCs, and they can also default on the loans without fear of losing their home. This would/could dramatically reduce their cost basis, and should help them get out from under somewhat.
Not that I condone this kind of behavior, but, hey, alls fair in love, finance, and war, right?
That would be my first move, try to get rid of that crazy loan interest rate, and, if possible, get rid of that loan entirely. That should put them on much firmer footing.
That’s a horrible idea. Credit cards can raise rates arbitrarily. It’s pretty common in the industry in fact to “lose” a payment just so they can jack up the rates. Also credit cards have a universal default clause that lets them instantly jack the limit to the states legal limit just because they don’t like the way the people’s finances look.
Tell them to stop making payments immediately. It will hurt their credit but it will get the bank’s attention. Until they do that they are seen as fresh fish by the bank. The bank will play hardball and they had better be prepared to do the same. That’s business, as they would say.
Even though they don’t plan to walk tell them to quit making payments. The bank needs that house about as much as a hooker needs a chastity belt.
I WOULD NOT advise them to stop making payment..however I WOULD advise them to speak to the bank/lenders.. as the goverment continues to come down harder and harder on these lenders regarding their amount of loan modifications..more and more of them are willing to work something out..stop making payment in certain states my get you into foreclosure sooner than if you had time to negotiate with the lender..
Knowing people that are in this situation I have learned firsthand that the banks will not budge while a loan is current. Unless you are willing to stop making payments they will not speak to you. If they are going to give something up they want the “owner” to give something up. That would be their credit score. It’s a high stakes game of poker. The banks aren’t going to make it completely painless for the FBs. So, they can keep making those payments and dream of banks that will work with them.
Sorry but you are wrong..my cousins loan is and has been “current” with Chase and she changed jobs.. she called them up(like I told her too) and they “FROZE” her ARM loan for the next 5 years..she has not missed a payment nor been late since she bought the home 1 1/2 years ago..she had to change jobs and something closer to home but is paying her less money…
One of my best friends works for Chase and she told me they were told to get more loans completed with loan modifications because they have to report how much they have done to the goverment..
Call their senator/congressperson and Say “hello I voted for you and now I want some good attention here”.
Be the squeaky wheel at that office and show up in person.
Get on the evening news often, put your article yourself in your local newspaper and send it into the senator/congresspersons office to show that they haven’t gotten help from their senator etc.
That’s a tough story, one of many. My mother just bought a mobile home for 45k against my screaming and wailing protests at 8 percent mortgage rate because nobody will finance them. Now when she retires her property will only be worth the well/barn etc, and the trailer (I’m not going to dress the thing up as a manufactured home or something like that). She has a trailer house on the property now and when we went to move 20 years ago she couldn’t sell the property for anything because nobody wants a trailer house, but it amazes me that people can make the same stupid costly mistake twice in their lives.
Undoing a stupid mistake usually means working your brains out or just being a legal dartboard.
Working you brains or being a legal dartboard. I love it. May I use it? We know the answer don’t we?
Set them up an appointment with a legal aid attorney. That’s really the best option.
At this point in the housing bust, those legal aid folks know every option backwards and forwards, and they are generally pretty good at finding time to help people that can pay (but not pay much).
Also check to see if any nearby law schools have clinics for this sort of thing. The students are enthusiastic and well supervised.
And you need to help them write up the entire thing in exhaustive detail (emphasizing especially how much they are doing to try to keep the payments up and how precarious that income is and what percent of their income they are paying to keep up), and send it to the their state representative and sentator and the Washington ones as well. If you include enough detail, those people may forward the info (include contact information like a phone number) to the people who are running the help programs with a “suggestion” that someone help their constituent. I doubt it will help, because the programs are limited to the people who can’t pay, but when they actually can’t make it, you have established that they tried to get help. And having the write up available for the inevitable blow up is a good thing. Better to do it now, when they are nervous, as opposed to when they are actually in a panic.
“It was very weird for me to suddenly find myself talking to one of these classic cases: recent immigrants, didn’t have a lawyer, had the papers switched on them at closing for a fat $20K in closing costs, huge second mortgage at 11.5% interest, on and on …
They were pretty stupid about getting into the mess but have been creative and ”
See..I would not call them stupid for getting into this mess..to me this is a typical predatory lending situation..recent immigrants, lack of understanding that they are in the land of con artists and rip offs..
They probably have the all to familar “trust” thing going on, especially if A)They knew the person who gave them the loan B)The person spoke the language if not English C)They could come from a country..that like ours USE TO BE..you could TRUST that lender was looking out for your best interest when you got the loan….
“They could come from a country..that like ours USE TO BE..you could TRUST that lender was looking out for your best interest when you got the loan…”
Do you happen to have a list of those countries?
The lenders never have and never will look out for the borrower’s best interest. They will always look out for their own best interest. In the old days they had to scope any potential borrower because securitization didn’t exist.
The less visible that hand in your pocket, the better the banks like it.
Hope this helps.
http://mortgage-home-loan-bank-fraud.com/legal/mass_ruling.htm
Leigh
Everyone, thanks a lot for the suggestions. Making sure that there is a paper trail documenting their hardships / attempts to get help is an excellent idea that I never would have thought of, thanks.
From all I’ve read over the last couple of years I too am in some doubt over whether the banks will give you the time of day as long as you’re making payments, but the news that e.g. Chase is being pressured to show evidence of loan modifications is heartening. I do expect it to come down to a high-stakes game of poker, though, just as NYCityBoy predicts — and that’s why I want to find them a lawyer.
Ann, by the way, you’re right that “stupid” is an unkind word to use, “foolish” would have been better … but since most of us here are in the position of having our tax dollars pay for the social problems caused by the housing bubble, and have heard a million stories of the kind, I figured pulling punches might be less appropriate than speaking bluntly.
Again, thanks all. I will start with the legal aid clinics and law school clinics and see what comes up. Any other ideas about specific things to look for in a lawyer would be very helpful.
Schiff…
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_08/schiff041808.html
Schiff nails it, again.
Wow, all that doom and gloom because the sharper image and linens and things went belly up? Those are both turd floater retailers that should have gone belly up years ago imo.
I agree w you vmlinux. Those two companies were real dogs. Schiff thinks that decoupling is a reality, but I just don’t believe it. Think about the Hang Seng. That has dropped 50% in the past 4.5 mos! You don’t hear much about it, but that is the truth. For that matter the Nikkie has dropped 21% in the past few months. This is serious. I just don’t think that Peter Schiff really understands that this is a global screw up and the dollar is only a symptom of the mess.
Roidy
The same mathematics will come into play for our ridiculously expensive higher education system, which can not exist without a well lubricated loan infrastructure. Limit the ability of students to take on heavy loans, and college education becomes untouchable for anyone but the wealthiest Americans. If loans dry up, universities will be forced to slash their bureaucracies and substantially reduce tuitions. Ironically the silver lining here is that with low tuitions students will no longer need the loans that kept tuitions so high in the first place.
BINGO…I have a high schooler who will be graduating a few years..I have already told her “pick a college where you can live at home.” She agrees…I explained to her that the whole system of “going away for college” was just a big gimmick for colleges to charge OUTRAGEOUS prices for a degree..when you go for an interview most EMPLOYERS don’t care so long as you meet the qualifications for the job..(unless you are picking a major that is only offered at a few select places)..and that EVERY state has great colleges/universities..why go away, and end up in debt for the next 20 years..owing $100,000 when your first job is going to pay you 40 or 50K…she is very aware and has her head on her shoulders..when she graduates she will owe 0!..that is the way to start your life…wait in the next couple of years as you hear about more and more kids staying home to go to college…
Last year I was talking to a 26 year old from California. He was in NYC working for BofA. He told me he had attended Carleton College. Of course I knew what Carleton College is. It is a very expensive ultra-liberal school (Paul Wellstone taught at Carleton) located in Northfield, MN. His 4 year degree had cost a fortune. Not only was Carleton not an asset for him in NYC, it was actually a liability. Nobody knew anything about the school. He would have been better off going to USC, UCLA or even the University of Minnesota. So many kids are paying for expensive name brands that only have significance in very localized areas. It’s insane. And no, I don’t think he got an education that was so great that all is justified.
I agree NYC its all a great con game when it comes to colleges/universities..a 4 year degree is a 4 year degree..period..
Disagree completely. An Ivy degree is valuable not only for the caliber of education offered, but for the contacts, both social and professional. It pays lifetime dividends. The great public universities…Michigan, Wisconsin, Berkeley, UCLA, are also worth every nickle. A degree from Caltech or MIT…never loses value.
It’s the price tag on second-tier schools that is questionable.
And, IMO, a college education is not a vocational program.
For a student who is truly motivated, it enriches one’s life more than any experience. But that describes probably no more than 10 or 15% of graduating high school students–who would be better served looking at vocational training.
The middle class that once dreamed of higher education for all is disappearing and college will once again become the province of the intellectually inclined and the well-to-do, as it was in the early 20th century.
I think it was implied that the Ivy League was not included in the generalization. The focus was the high priced private schools that don’t really add to the marketability of the graduate. The education I have received in life is richer than any other person I know and I know some pretty highly educated people. And I got most of my education for free from The School of Life.
Spike..about that MIT degree..saw a article recently..wish I could remember where..a guy with a MIT degree got laid off..still waiting for a job 6 months later..degrees don’t make the jobs..the jobs makes the degrees worth or worthless…
I could got to Harvard and get a degree in Service Merchandising..so I can work at the Macy’s counter..
Suspect they’d rather bus students in from overseas before they’d reduce tuitions.
I think many grad engineering programs easily fit into that category.
From the article:
“Therefore, not only will Americans be staring at high prices, but they will have to pay in cash.”
“… but they will have to pay in cash.”
“… pay in cash.”
“.. cash.”
I’ve noticed a few furniture carpeting household stores with huge signs the past week here in queens Grand Re-Opening …All New Inventory….Maybe owned by the same company?
Also lot more available signs on commercial building in Hunters point, and no one seems to be moving in.
Yet my neighbor up the street bought a 2 family/maybe legal 3 for 740K and is renovating….mortgage is $6K mo maybe max rental income $5000-5500…trying to get $2K each for a 2 bedroom..maybe but tenants wont stay long these are 70 year old houses with plaster walls and not much insulation.
It’s the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.
Cash only!
I certainly don’t wish for a total collapse of the system - it would be devastating beyond all predictions - However, for the sake of our country, the sooner the economy re-aligns into a sustainable model - regardless of the short term pain - the better for all in the end run. I want something to remain of American greatness when my son is my age…
I know your weather is supposed to be nice today. I’m having visions of a nice walk up and down Summit Avenue. Maybe a bike ride. That would be so nice. A walk around Lake Calhoun would be nice, as well.
I wish - then a trip to Quang’s on Eatstreet to pig out on killer Vietnamese food… Unfortunately, we’re in small town Alabama where ethnic food is considered to be a trip to the local soul food joint (of which we do have a couple of serious standouts). I’d love a ride around Medicine Lake where we lived. Or drive down to Lake Street in Wayzata for a orange creme smoothie at the Dog House, or a quick trip to the India Palace in St Louis Park, or Wagners… *sigh*
…combined to lower American’s wealth in comparison to the rest of the world. The pie is still growing, but our percentage share of it is decreasing.
Just been down to FL, There are some knife catchers there, but my gut feeling is that prices will overshoot to the down side wiping out any of the gains in the last 8 years, perhaps prices will return to what they were in the late nineties.
I live in FL, and I fully agree with you. They just don’t seem to realize how much oversupply we have down here, and how impractical much of this oversupply is. Fact is, lots of people couldn’t afford these 3500/sq/ft homes if they owned them outright; the taxes, insurance, upkeeps and utilities on these beasts in the Sunshine state is staggering.
I am expecting prices to hit 2000 levels or so.. Once they do, I will probably jump in and buy something, not as an investment, but because I have the money, and I am ready to buy. 100/sq/ft is my target price in FL for a luxury home 2000-3000/sq/ft. We are quickly approaching that number, where, just 2 years ago, 200/sq/ft was a crapshack..
Oh, and if you’re talking about condos… They are such a mess down here that I expect you may be able to buy some of them in the next few years for nothing more then the back assessments and taxes. There’s NO end user demand, and the carrying costs will make your head spin (try 500-1000/mo for common areas, another 1000-2000/mo for taxes, and then add in some assessments for good measure…).
Wouldn’t touch a condo in Florida if someone gave it to me for FREE..the HOA(some as high as $1000 a month!)..the UNKNOWN FEES..cost of insurance and forget it if you have foreclosures..you have to pay for the deadbeats carrying costs..
Just now really starting to see Fl prices drop significantly although I still think the good buying will be in another year.. looked at a map showing how much subprime was done throughout Broward, Dade and Palm Beach County(some as high as 50%+ of loans made during 06) ..based on that you have about another 6-12 months of high foreclosure activity(MTA loans,2/3/5 year arms)..which means prices will go lower..
I sold my house in Clearwater, FL in 2002. I remember thinking at the time that it was a good time to sell because the market was strong. I sold that house for about $94/sq.ft. I paid about $64/sq.ft for it in 1997.
Around 2004 and 2005 I was kicking myself for selling too soon. Looking back today, I think I made the right decision and it was a good market to sell in 2002 in Clearwater.
is this legal ? my county just raised by the amount of the price drop………..
They have also cancelled the countywide tax assessment - a first in 7 years.
Of course, it is.
Welcome to taxation without representation. Oh, and congratulations on your “American Dream”.
I have to stick to my belief that the variable of property taxes may in fact have forever changed the equation of ownership.
HBB posters from NY state seem to clearly understand what this means. Who wants to be tied down and have to fund someone’s six figure pension? Especially when it is very possible nowadays that that person may need to work only 20-25 years to collect said benefits for another 40?
For the big northern cities this is especially the case, maybe other areas will fare better.
Isn’t IL planning to double its state tax to cover the pension crisis?
That’s news to me, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s talk about it. One of the few advantages of having a completely dysfunctional state government is that nothing happens fast, if at all. The legislature has taken to unanimously voting against the governors budget proposals, and the governor vetoes anything the legislature sends him unless they go back, add some completely off-the-wall provision, and then re-pass the modified bill.
It is seriously, 100% insane.
I haven’t heard that either, but like Brian, it would hardly surprise me. Generally speaking, right now I’m most concerned with Cook County and the City’s situation. That’s not to say G-Rod isn’t up a creek with his budget.
The big bump in the Cook County sales tax could not have come at a worse time. Watching the Federal gov’t make hay over some rebate checks is hilarious when it is only going to be soaked up by rising local taxes.
There was a resolution proposed to put a constitutional amendment on the ballot in November to allow Illinois residents to vote on doubling the income tax for individuals making over $250,000 annually. It failed in the House.
“I have to stick to my belief that the variable of property taxes may in fact have forever changed the equation of ownership.”
More than prices or interest rates, this is the big one. Falling tax revenues and underfunded pension obligations are just the start of the fun. Current funding for public services–from cops and firemen, to road repair, will be on the shoulders of home owners. You can’t raise sales taxes much higher than 8 or 9 percent, and with consumers tapped out, those revenue streams are drying up, and state income taxes have to stay competitive or drive away businesses. So, who’s left, but your favorite bag-holders…home owners. Sitting ducks for the tax machine.
How else are they going to keep their spending up? You either reduce their spending or they reduce yours.
Most cities let you dispute your property values, it’s a pain and nobody does it, but at least here they don’t have the resources to fight you so it almost always works.
They raised mine on my previous house. I contested it.
I fought the law, and the law won.
Most cities/counties do, and many are more than happy to help you out. For good reason - it’s a good misdirection play. Fighting your property tax assessment/bill does nothing to reduce the amount of property taxes they take in, it’s just you fighting with your neighbors about what your share of the payment is, and they get to be the mediator.
Nobody focuses on the part where the county decides how much total money to collect, which suits the county just fine.
I got up this morning and I’m still worked up over Flip That House last night. Yes, I really like the show, especially now that so many turn bad. Last night’s episode was a single mother in Altadena, California. I have no idea where that is.
The flipper bought a small piece of crap for $378,000. She put in another $88,000. That is not what irked me. In fact the people on Flip That House usually are nowhere near as heinous as they are on Property Ladder. The problem I had was the fact that they kept saying, over and over again, how she wanted this house to raise enough money to send her two mutant spawns through college. How often do we talk about these rejects wanting to fund their retirements, college funds and wildest dreams with housing? It just pi$$ed me off.
At the end she still had a small 3/2 house but was looking for, drum roll, $579,000. That was after “pricing it to sell”. And yet all the idiots think this will be a minor economic bump for this country and can’t understand how much damage $600,000 homes in California and other havens have destroyed us. F-ck ‘em all. This house should be no more than $150,000. I don’t give a flying f-ck what anybody says about an area being different or special. This Altadena place didn’t look so special. It looked like a place where a $50,000 a year job would put you at the high end.
This is a mess and I can’t believe how stupid people are. Between my conversation Friday with a Wall Street guy and seeing this nauseating flipper wanting to fund her dopey looking offspring’s college fantasies I’m just ashamed and frustrated this morning. We are in trouble and everybody thinks the Fed will ease us right out. WTF?
You may not have the proper scientific frames of reference to evaluate the California RE market. I suggest:
http://www.groundswellsociety.org/events/SASIC7/
but did she sell it?
At the end they said the price was dropped and they “expected” a bidding war.
Still on the market. Bwahaha. And the “real estate professional” had told her $579,000 would get her a quick sale. This woman was hoping this house could provide an education and I’m sure it did.
And another Flip that House yesterday had two morons that bought a fixer upper at $670,000. The friendship broke up as the one investor dumped in $150,000. At the end it looked like a $200,000 house. At the conclusion of the show it stated he had moved his family into the house, hoping to relist soon. Moron!
if you don’t love everyone you can’t sell anyone” ROFLOW
The problem I had was the fact that they kept saying, over and over again, how she wanted this house to raise enough money to send her two mutant spawns through college.
The obession with higher education is both amusing and troubling. Note how much ink is given to securing funding, but how little print is given to actual academic achievement. These FBs whine about the price of tuition, but what is their kid’s high school performance/GPA like?
To them higher education is yet another “magic diet pill”. Simply fund the tuition and kick the kid in the front door and you’ll get a PhD who can help fund your retirement.
So, what are these FBs talking about? A kid with a say 3.75 GPA who can’t get into a decent school or a schlub who can’t pull a 2.25 GPA and wants to relive Animal House? Because seriously FBs - a third world nation doesn’t really need all that big of a professional class.
Especially, since in Cali and in Altadena, the spawn could go to low-cost PCC in Pasadena and take just about anything, including a number of vocational courses, then automatically transfer to Cal State Somewhere, and more or less launch themselves if they play their cards right.
I just watched that episode! You did leave out where she lowered the price by about $10 grand in order to spark a bidding war (which never materialized). Then while she’s still sitting on a house she can’t sell, she says she can’t wait to get another house to flip. Huh?
Just watched the episode where Kirsten tells one of 2 twins what to do with 100 yrold Fwy adjacent home in LA.
The twin didn’t do anything and was just so juvenile, never showed up to house till late, blah blah . Anyway, supposedly was appraiser, quit her job to do this home in 4 wks and after all her petulance she went into contract 12 wks later for profit of $160…k
Just pissed me off.
Didn’t say it closed though, but those who are making money and acting like jerks… just amazing , simply amazing. While the rest are working hard and this floozy is vacationing during recon.
I wasn’t going to watch until I read the blog this am. Damn you guys. Ruining a nice weather High!
For a little context…
Altadena’s not a bad spot. It’s just north of Pasadena, at the base of the San Gabriel Mountains. Altadena’s one of the older neighborhoods in Los Angeles: craftsman houses, big trees, little mom ‘n’ pop shops, even a few horse properties. That said, western Altadena was a pit in the late 80s, early 90s. Run down, gang problems, etc. Eastern Altadena remained one of the wealthier neighborhoods in the SGV.
Depending on the location in Altadena, the style and quality of the house, etc., in 2000 houses were going from $100k to $1M. Sounds like this was on the low end.
Boy, Altadena is two or three miles away from the Rose Parade.
When I was a kid we never went to that area.
She did do a better job on the flip than some. Roof leak, so she took it to the rafters. Termites, so she tented and replaced a lot of timber. She added a second bath/walk-in closet that was very nice addition to sqft.
But…. Flip that House math is still in effect. sell price - (purchase price + reapairs) = profit. Okay, she did hint that she wasn’t REALLY going to make $140K if it sold at originaly asking. Fees and such.
Yeah, it is going to cost you 10% coming and going, so that is $50-60K of her $140K. Carry costs of $3K+ per month for many months.
They priced it to sell quickly. Then sliced $25K in hopes of a bidding war with no bites. I bet they are hoping to get offers now that the episode has run on national tv.
Do the tv producers give them money for letting them feature them on tv?
“mutant spawns”, flying f-cks and “dopey off spring”
Great rant..you’re on a roll NYCity
Phist..phist… umm…err..We better monitor NYCityBoys intake of caffine and Flip that House or the Pope will be on a Mission here ..forever
“mutant spawns”
Beautiful. And to Blano below, you’re right on the money.
I’ve never tried offending anybody in high price areas by saying something similar, but I’m with the City Boy……600K, 700K, 500K, 1m houses is just godawful insane. Doesn’t matter where it is.
I have to agree with you NYC..everyone thinks that their house is “special.”
We have friends of ours who relocated without having their house sold..we told them how tough the market was..how it took us almost a year to get our house sold…BUT DID THEY LISTEN..no..because their house was “better” than our house..oh..the wife says, “Well we lived in a million dollar home..”..REALLY? Well home is still for sale..over a year later..and now they are trying to short sale their Million dollar home at 600K! I figure it will go into foreclosure and sell for around 500K…
When I was writing this earlier, your numbers seemed close to right, but I remembered them talking profit closer to $200K. But you number soundedso right I figured it mush have been $120K.
NOPE!!!! I just watched it again so I could get the real numbers.
$386K purchase price.
$80K makeover.
$579K initial lost ofr quick sale.
Potential profit = $193K. WHAAAAA?!?!?!
579K-386K = $193K
They aren’t even subtracting the $80K!!!!
Then it was on the maket for 2 months so they droppedtheprice to $556K in hopes of a bidding war. 2 more weeks and no interest.
Let’s assume it actually goes for $556K (which I doubt). And assume it goes under contract in the next couple weeks. 6 weeks escrow.
Add 10% closing costs coming and going = $55K.
She has already owned it 5 months. Call it 7 months before it sells. At $3K a month carrying costs (my guess is that is low). Call it $20K.
$556K - $386K - $80K - $55K - $20K = Drummm Rolllllll
$15K.
They are talking $193K profit, and REALLY she’s HIGHLY UNLIKLEY to get out with ANYTHING!!!
Shredding today and came across… drumroll plz a xeroxed copy of Monday, July 30,2001: USA TODAY article on
‘Check out how home prices across USA compare’
Prior to 9/11-
9/12/01 Oil a Barrel was $22.00 and now 2008 $115.00.
Prices on homes in 2001 July 30 were
Bakersfield- 201k
Fresno -205k
Long Beach-465 k
rancho Bernardo- 435k
SantaMonica - 647k
Thousand Oaks- 461k
average.
Still a great thing to stumble over.
Oh and Detroit MEtro was $288K average.
That’s what I keep telling my wife - that type of history - she forgets how low prices were ten years ago because she has been conditioned to think big numbers.
Front page headline in this weekend’s Australian Financial Review (Oz equivalent of WSJ).
“Property Stress hits millionaire suburbs”
Except for a few recently built outer areas (which wouldn’t qualify as millionaire suburbs) this stress is coming from rising interest rates because Australia hasn’t seen widespread price falls.
Yet.
How do you say, “too f-cking bad” in Australian?
aren’t we just a ray of sunshine on a sunday morning
stop watching that crap it is making you angry
we can only hope when this carnage hits the shores of nyc
it is taking it’s sweet time
My give a damn’s busted.
Oz is far more overpriced, in aggregate, than the US or Canada. Oz has no reasonably priced big cities like Houston or even Chicago. Every city of any size is an LA or San Diego. Sort of like California being a country by itself.
And of course what is even more ridiculous, is that it’s the most sparsely populated country in the world.
Not out of the woods yet… Morning all!
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aElaUvS1sxzw&refer=home
As I’ve written Friday I was at a little get together. A bunch of worthless looking Wall Street types were there. The optimism was overflowing. They had bought into the “worst is behind us” bullsh-t. But here again this article points out some basic facts that even C has huge problems with which to deal.
Can the optimists explain this to me? The U.S. residential real estate stock is now valued at about $20 trillion (I subtracted for drops already taking place). American households are at less than 50% equity for the first time ever, I think. That means we have $10 trillion of mortgages outstanding, regardless of what corner of the globe in which they choose to hide. The big boys have written off about $300 billion. What am I missing. If house prices drop another 10 percent that is at least $1 trillion of value that will go and will lead to many more foreclosures. The write-offs should be huge, especially since we are very likely to see multiple trillions vanish. And this does not include student loans, credit cards, commercial real estate, etc.
To have a brain in this day and age is not always a benefit to your sanity. Sometimes the blinking dimwits just don’t know how good they really have it. Their delusions are their blessing.
NYCityBoy, I like your anger!
nycityboy, it gets even better - your thought “The U.S. residential real estate stock is now valued at about $20 trillion (I subtracted for drops already taking place). American households are at less than 50% equity for the first time ever, I think. That means we have $10 trillion of mortgages outstanding, regardless of what corner of the globe in which they choose to hide. The big boys have written off about $300 billion”.
About a third, or $7 trillion of that real estate is owned free and clear, which means $10 trillion is secured by $13 trillion, collectively a LTV of ~75. However, that ends up being an average of LTV of 1-125+. Everything over 95 LTV is going to be wiped out over the next few years, I estimate $2-3 trillion taking 50% haircut = $1.25 trillion in losses eventually, plus the credit card and commercial loan losses will end up $2 trillion. Hoard cash for the next 5 years and buy cheap is my plan - around 2013/2014.
Got diversified assets?
(Pandit is the new CitiGroup CEO after ousted Charles O. “Chuck” Prince.)
“Strealth ironicality” in how this reporter strung these two closing area paragraphs together?
—
Pandit also marked down the value of the Old Lane LP hedge fund company that he sold to the bank less than a year ago. Citigroup’s alternative-investments unit posted a loss in the first quarter as the New York-based bank took a $202 million pretax writedown on Old Lane. Citigroup acquired Pandit’s company for about $800 million in July.
(snip stock price change garagraph)
“You’ve brought in a new management team that is off to a very good start,” Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. analyst Jason Goldberg said in an interview with Bloomberg radio. Still, “it’s going to take some time till you begin to see the losses begin to go the other way.”
Pandit was a shark at Morgan Stanley who ran the prop. desk. No surprise he took the Citi shareholders for a bath on his hedge fund.
I’m curious….a house in my hood was foreclosed last December and has been vacant since then. There is no for sale sign, and google search reveals nothing except for the fact that it was foreclosed on.
I’m not interested in this house myself, but am wondering why the bank would just sit on it? The house has clearly deteriorated since it has been empty, with the pool completely black, and the garden approaching jungle stage.
They are waiting out the downturn. D’uhhh.
is that legal-= I thought banks had rules about holding periods
I thought alot of things
Depending on the bank, they may not have the resources to put the home up for sale, some of the banks in the bubble areas are so swamped with foreclosures that they don’t have the resources to get these things listed and sold. And, of course, they could be holding off on listing it until they are “ready” to show the loss. Until it sells they don’t have to record the 50% haircut they took on a “safe” mortgage.
At least the worst of this “credit crunch” (god, I hate that term) is behind us. Bwahaha.
we should be seeing sunny skies and continued prosperity anyday now in america
i can feel it!!
Are you in the middle of a bubble bath, cause a bubble bath always makes me feel uplifted. Mgnyc99?!!
It depends on how well organized the bank is. Some like Countrywide have so many places on the books & have downsized their workforce = mess! A few communities have passed law imposing heavy fines for neglected properties, I wish this way a nationwide practice. We had a foreclosure in the ‘hood last year & for a few month the place was a horrid (overgrown lawn, …). The bank got their act together & sold it.
I wish this way -> I wish this was (oops! MORE COFFEE)
two scenerios..1)BACKLOGGED!… and 2)Whose house is it anyway?..some “foreclosed” homes mortgages changed hands so many times..no one knows who is responsible for it or owns it..
I live (renting back from the guy who bought my house in Feb.) in Corona (the IE) and there are several REO’s in my tract and same thing, sign went off, lawn brown, overgrown, empty for 1 year or so…..no sign of the bank trying to sell it. I feel sorry for the neighbors on both sides……….
Valley housing scams spread. Phony ‘rescue’ services lure homeowners in crisis.
http://www.fresnobee.com/263/story/538963.html
Seems like the Brits are exchanging treasuries for mortgages, taking a page out of HeliBen’s book. Guess they don’t realize that used toilet paper is NOT worth the same as new. I don’t know about you guys, but I will short the pound in early morning trading tomorrow….
Bank of England to Detail Swap Plan for Easing Credit (Update1)
By Mark Deen and Jennifer Ryan
April 20 (Bloomberg) — The Bank of England tomorrow will release its plan to swap government bonds for mortgage-backed securities in an effort to ease credit costs and help British homeowners, Chancellor of the Exchequer Alistair Darling said.
This will “unfreeze the situation we’ve got at the moment,” Darling said today in a BBC television interview. “What the Bank of England will do is in effect lend the banks that money. In the meantime, the Bank of England will take a security,” he said.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=amxfdHnkqn_U&refer=home
How about getting long British only banks? They would seem to be the biggest beneficiaries of this legislation, no?
Am I the only idiot in the country that had to be at work this morning at 0500?
That cardboard box under the bridge in San Diego is looking better all the time.
Drinking fresh ground Kona in a sunny kitchen a 7 am with the family still dead asleep… Ahhhhhh - ME time!
It’s a good thing I love the smell of jet fuel in the morning…..
Me too - retired USAF… MMMMMmmm JP4 …….
Are you in Enterprise?
My 2 year old just ran in and jumped on me, now we are watching Clifford the big red dog, and I’m about to fire up the coffee maker. I think this morning is French Roast :).
A topic I’d like to see this morning is whether we are in as Soros says a Commodities bubble. I know that the farmers in this area are pushing on http://www.amarillo.com/stories/042008/bus_9999498.shtml that are killing the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogallala_Aquifer
The sunlight woke me this morning and I reluctantly squinted open one eye to look at the clock. 7:02 AM. I’m awake a bit early today and the spouse is still asleep. Got up, shuffled to the kitchen, turned on the coffee pot, and then walked down the driveway to get the paper. Oh, it’s thick today so it must be Sunday (retirement is six Saturdays and a Sunday). Started back toward the house and stopped to listen to all the bird songs and admire the dogwoods and azaleas in their spring glory. Gonna be a great day!
Bill, that made me tear up. This has been a rough year and weekends are really about regrouping and preparing for $120.00 oil and food costs to the moon.
Thank you all for sharing your morning stuff.
Ouro, impermanence and entropy are the way of the world.
Go on down to the beach and read some Camus or Sartre, you’ll feel better… actually, check out this website and you’ll feel better (he’s a friend):
http://www.tomtill.com/
Did the same this morning (and most mornings). Got up at 5:00 a.m., enjoyed a nice hot cup of Kona and read & meditated (lost in thought, not to be confused with contorting myself into some Eastern lotus position) for a couple of distraction-free hours. I need solitude sometimes like I need oxygen.
I’m with you, Sammy. Fed the dogs, made coffee, check out the HBB, then it’s off to hike some canyons and photograph wildflowers - beautiful day. (Sorry, Gulfstream-sitter
)
Your office has a helluva view and is powered by twin Rolls Royce engines. I’d trade you.
A bit off topic:
Met an ex-cop last weekend who is still connected with the police force. His sources tell him that many potential cop recruits can’t get on the force solely because of bad credit.
He says these young guys get a credit card, run it up to the max, then get another card, run it up to the max, etc. Then they decide to get a good job.
But they can’t get a good job because their credit is shot, so they are stuck with getting low-paying sucky jobs.
But these low-paying jobs don’t pay them enough for them to get out from beneath their crushing debt load, the same debt load that prevents them from getting good paying jobs.
So they remain screwed.
I’m no expert but isn’t this same thing playing out with the “security clearance” type jobs?
It isn’t just the security clearance type jobs. I think one or two people in my office were sponsored for actual clearances, but most of us are just plain old ordinary “position of trust” background checks. Credit check was the one thing they cared about more than any other.
Isn’t anyone in the “land of the free” a bit concerned that a private business, accountable to no one, can assign you a number that determines whether you can get a job or not?
My coworker was raked over the coals when her periodic reinvestigation coincided with her divorce. Her non-working husbund made sure he maxed-out the joint credit cards before flying the coop.
The holes we dig in our youth are often difficult to escape. That is sad. I look at all of the good financial advice I received in my younger days. You could fit it in a thimble. I go out of my way to explain to younger guys what they need to do. Once in a while I even get through. Sometimes the best tool for educating young people on personal finances is a baseball bat.
I learned from my parents’ example. As products of the Great Depression, they were constantly frugal. As a result, we’ve never maxed out a credit card (almost always pay the balance each month) and had a HELOC just once, to fund an addition to a house. Bought used cars for the longest time.
Thankfully, it looks like our kids are following our example.
I am assuming from your screen name that you work in tech. I also work in technology, and what you describe above is a big deal for anyone wanting a higher level technical job.
In todays world, those people you have working on your network, servers, storage arrays, etc have unprecidented access to sensitive data and information. As such, it has become very common for clients of the company I work for to ask for background checks; primarily in the form of credit and “responsibility” screens. Those with awful credit will never be able to work in the banking sector, and will never be able to work for the govt sector either. That’s a huge red flag, one that you can only repair by paying your bills and repairing your credit.
So, many people are not only excluded from being cops, but also from any jobs in the banking/finance sector and govt sector. That puts a really large hurdle out there for some/many people.
Exactly. A buddy of mine was just fired for failing his security clearance because of something he was accused of when he was 17 - he’s 36 now, and it was never cleaned off of his federal record, but was cleaned off his state. The company actually let him work from home for like 4 months, but never could get the federal stuff cleaned off. Pretty sad because this is one of the more stand up guys I know.
“Those with awful credit will never be able to work in the banking sector, and will never be able to work for the govt sector either.”
I’m on my way to the mall, gonna run up my card and not pay it.
Suits and ties should be illegal, they cause emotional damage to the wearer.
Even the custodial staff need clearances.
Michael Fink, how does the tech industry react to potential employees who have NO credit. I mean,of course, those who are so prudent that they refuse to play the game and have never borrowed and possess no credit cards?
Are they vilified because they refuse to be suckers and would therefore be to hard to abuse as employees?
Honestly, I’m not sure, I don’t work in the mgmt/HR end of things, I am a “doer” not a “teller”.
Having been through the process, I can tell you that they pull your credit reports (all 3) and then discuss them with you if there is anything unusual. I don’t know that they look at your “score” per se; more at your payment habits, and spending habits. IMHO, they are smart enough to realize that someone who never uses credit does NOT make them a security risk. However, it wouldn’t surprise me to find the opposite either, given how dependant our society has become on the mighty “plastic”, you might be seen as an outsider for not using it.
Either way, I wouldn’t worry, its MUCH easier to explain away why you don’t use credit then to explain why you bought 15 condos in FL and AZ and defaulted on all of them!
No credit is fine, it’s just bad credit that is a security risk. The fear is the same as the governments, that you will steal to pay off your debtors.
Wonder what criteria is used to screen the CEOs of some of these banks / finance companies?
Hannaford’s was PCI compliant and the compromised customer data appears to have been an inside job. Wondering if companies are going to raise the bar when it comes to security clearances for IS/IT people. Can you blame them?
I’ve been working for what seems like forever getting ready for a PCI - ROC and I’m ready to go off the deep end with this crap. All platforms and apps converted to SFTP / SSH and it’s a nightmare that never ends because everthing touches everything. It can’t imagine it getting any worse than this. Someone stick a pencil in my eye. Please!!!!
“So they remain screwed.”
Freedom comes with responsibilities. Screw ‘em!
Hey guys,
If I could lean on the collective wisdom here I’d be very grateful …
I just found out on Friday that the lady who babysits our daughter, and her husband, bought a place at the end of 2005 with no money down and are now (surprise!) in a world of trouble. It was very weird for me to suddenly find myself talking to one of these classic cases: recent immigrants, no education to speak of, didn’t have a lawyer, had the papers switched on them at closing for a fat $20K in closing costs, huge second mortgage at 11.5% interest, on and on …
They were pretty foolish about getting into the mess but have been creative and industrious about making their payments (multiple jobs, running a boarding house for a local school out of the upstairs, etc.). They could go on like this but (a) I suspect they’re one contrary event away from the whole thing coming down around their ears (b) they have two kids, who I really like, that are going to bear the brunt of this craziness for the next ten years and counting.
I talked to her about walking away, since they don’t have any equity in the place, but they don’t want to do that. As I thought about it further I realized that that’s not entirely nuts: the bulk of their income is through the boarding house, and if they lose the house they can’t replace that income, to the point where it’s not clear to me that they’d be better off in the short term, regardless of the long-term benefit. Put another way, they’ve actually got the place cash-flowing, though it is a miserable and precarious kind of cash flow. (Students only stay there for a few weeks to a month each, so they can’t project long-term income from the arrangement, and moreover it’s not clear to me that this income will be enough to cover the first time they need a new roof, for example.)
I can’t make walking-away decisions for them, but at any rate it’s clear to me that they’d have a much better chance of making it if they could get that second mortgage renegotiated or refinanced at a lower rate. They’ve tried talking to banks, and tried to apply for Massachusetts’ recently instituted homeowner aid program, apparently with no success (i have no idea whether this is because they haven’t applied competently, or because their income is either unreliable or not entirely documented, or what). One thing that they haven’t tried is threatening to walk away, which I’ve seen anecdotal evidence for as a workable strategy. But no matter what, and especially if they try the threaten-to-walk approach, I think they need a lawyer (and probably a tax accountant) to help them through it.
Which brings me to my question. What is the best way to go about finding a good Massachusetts lawyer who can competently help them to shore up their situation? The last thing they need is to pay for one more semi-useless intermediary; they have cash to divert for this purpose but only if it pays off, basically.
I’ll be glad to do the legwork of making calls, doing research etc. for them, if folks would be so kind as to suggest to me what to look for, how best to separate the lawyerly wheat from the chaff, etc. I don’t have much experience with lawyers and would be very grateful for pointers on how to winnow out a good one.
BTW, this isn’t going to stop me from calling my congressmen every few weeks with my ongoing “no bailouts” barrage. But like I said these guys have kids, and as long as there’s any help out there to be had, I’d like to see them get it.
thanks,
WAFK
How about starting by suing the mortgage broker for enough to pay the mortgage off. Switching papers at the closing deserves to be brought to court.
“I mean, how much lower can they go”…. YGTBSM. Wow!
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/economic-preview-sad-sentiment-seen/story.aspx?guid=%7BEC682B12%2D1369%2D439C%2D8891%2DEDF393E2783B%7D&dist=hplatest
” However, some analysts see a silver lining in the housing data. While sales have been weak, they’re bottoming out, some believe, providing relief for part of the home market.
“The worst of the sales decline is in the rear-view mirror,” said Aaron Smith of Moody’s Economy.com. Prices, however, are going to keep coming down, say Smith and others.”
My brain hurts. The disconnect between analysts, experts and reality is so massive. Why don’t they ask, “for which part of the home market will this mean relief?” Nope. Once again, another “journalist” that is nothing but an order taker for corporate America. Disgusting! I’m going to go break something. I’ll be back in 15.
The basic mathematical idea here that is missing is that:
1. There IS a limit to the $100,000 price drops
2. There is NO limit to the 10% price drops
Well, by that logic, the worst declines ARE in the rear view mirror. After all, the 1st 10% decline is bigger than the 4th 10% decline.
I’m going to go break something. I’ll be back in 15.
Must be the Cheerios - careful there, buddy…
Too much sugar in cheerios. careful NYC.
Nah, it’s the Jim Beam he drowns them in…
Whoops - sorry, NY, didn’t mean to insult you…Jackie Dee’s…
In case you missed this gem yesterday. A special Thank You to jbunniii, for a great find.
Comment by jbunniii
2008-04-19 23:51:08
Never mind that request - I just spotted the “archives” section which goes back to 1995!
P.S. While googling around, I found this great time-warp article from 1993, in the heart of the last L.A. housing bust:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m5072/is_/ai_13927682
This is good reading for anyone who doubts that the high-end sections of LA (and elsewhere) will eventually fall, and fall hard.
those are some nice 50% or so haircuts on high end homes
i would love to see the manhattan prices fall by 40%
“i would love to see the manhattan prices fall by 40%”
I would be amazed if they don’t.
So it took three years of bad news to reach capitulation stage in the media. Where was the bottom relative to this marker?
Do you think the dumbasses in Westchester would be able to draw any conclusions from reading this flashback? I don’t. But this was great to read.
94 was when I bought a foreclosure in Palm Springs for 70k
Next year 2 condos for 20k each. But market wouldn’t sustain jobs and no renters for both. During those 93/97 yrs many contractors etc were all having 2-3 jobs just to make ends meet.
I would say the bottom was 90. 87 was when CA lost alot of military aerospace type jobs, bases were closing down.
Bottom in 1990? That was the PEAK year in SoCal! The bottom was in 1996 or thereabouts.
Also, weren’t most of the aerospace jobs lost after the Berlin Wall fell in 1989?
From the UK…Mortgage Holiday Proposed…
As the Brits follow us down the same dismal road.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2008/apr/20/mortgages.houseprices
And renters get f-cked. That should help bring class harmony to the Brits.
European financial institutions have had to take some big losses on U.S. mortgages. Now they have their own home grown problems. Perhaps the property bubble will now be shown to be a world wide problem, with many other countries involved.
It is still going to be U.S.’s fault.
Good article! I wonder if it’s going to follow the same pattern this time since the Gov is so heavily involved in trying to prop up prices at untennable levels?
21% Drop in Sonoma isn’t really a 21% drop?
From DataQuick:
The median price of a Sonoma County home plunged 21.3 percent in March, compared to a year ago, reaching $409,500, according to DataQuick, …
The typical home, however, lost only about 10 percent of its value during the same period, Karevoll estimated. About half of the decline in the median price has been caused by a change in the mix of sales, he said. …
Sales in March were concentrated among lower-priced homes and foreclosure properties, …About half the decline in median price is due to the shift in mix. The other half is depreciation, he said…”
How come DataQuick and the other housing cheer leaders didn’t explain this “mix thingy” when the median was going up?
Couple of FL gems you may all enjoy:
What?? Condo-tels were a poor investment? No way!
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/localnews/content/local_news/epaper/2008/04/20/s1c_condohotel_0420.html#comments
City of West Palm Beach offering money to homeowners to avoid foreclosure:
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/localnews/content/local_news/epaper/2008/04/20/s1a_FORECLOSE_MAIN_0420.html#comments
He idiot analysts the reason sales have bottomed and willcontinue to go up is that foreclosure properties sell quicker and at reduced prices. Who care what the sales number is it is all about the price declines and their steepness that will tell us where the market is headed. Ahhh….and that is way lower. i am desperately trying to buy an investment property but still find that aftre 10 to 15% price decline the properties don’t cash flow. Unfortunately, since I incorporate the cost of everything going up, RE taxes, labor, energy and insurance the price declines can’t outrun inflation. Thanks BB!
Inventory is the delta between price and demand. Inventory is high=prices are falling.
Huh.. I could have sworn I posted these up this morning.. Oh well, here’s another try…
2 articles you will all enjoy from the Palm Beach Post today:
http://tinyurl.com/5z6rfp
and
http://tinyurl.com/5hp8y8
Sorry if this is a double post… See if you can find the “HBBer” who’s posted on both of those threads.
Thousands of squatters inhabit abandoned Florida homes:
http://www.tampabay.com/incoming/article464637.ece
So the nation’s missing bees went to Florida?
Neighbor of mine put a bid on a house recently that was accepted. Now she’s got fingers crossed for financing.
It’s an old 4BR, 1BA with a “zestimate” and list price of $265K. Friend offered $200K (bold move!) and they ended up settling on $225K. Sounds promising, right?
Zillow shows the last sale was in 2002 for $92K. Question: Do zillow sales sometimes reflect home equity loans taken out (rather than an actual sale)? I can’t believe this house would have sold for $92K in 2002 and now be “worth” upper $200s. But then again, I’m still in sitcker shock denial - even after all these years.
Anyway, the prospective buyer is a single mom with 3 kids. She doesn’t even have the $10K she’ll need at closing saved yet. She plans to grab a bartending job between now and 3-4 months (when she hopes to close) to save that money. Her child support is a non-court-ordered deal so I think her ex is cooperating with her to state that income. Still, I can’t help but want to shake her and say “Don’t do it!! Not yet!! Yes, it’s a pretty good deal compared to list price, but you are NOT ready to do this financially!! And you will find a better deal if you wait!!”
Problem is, she - and her 3 kids - currently live in the same kind of townhouse that I’m in. A 2BR. Obviously, she wants to get out as quickly as she can. She told me she pays $1100 in rent (I pay $1050 - different owners). Her new mortgage (I have to assume with taxes, et. al. included) will be around $1700. She said, “It’s only about $600 more a month so what the heck!” She and I have vastly different definitions of “only $600″.
The one thing in her favor is she said she will be going fixed rate. Hopefully she can hold onto the house (if she gets the financing).
Another one bites the dust.
Only $600 a month?!?
Jeebus Cripus, when did $600 become an only? (and I’m a New Yorker, fer cryin’ out loud!)
Holy smokes, I can pretty much LIVE on $600 a month, minus my rent. That’s everything, groceries and gas and utilities and whatever.
My wife and kids just got their teeth cleaned w/ bite-wing photos, $650.00. Some lab co-pays just ate up another $342.00 this month, and my glasses are due for a prescription update. Our groceries now cost about $1,200/mo these days. We’re just middle-class, not 90210.
$650.00 pays for 1 clinical class, books, and gas towards an NP certificate at the local college
Zillow is HORRIBLE when it comes to its estimates..it doesn’t update its records with today’s rapidly moving home prices..so I don’t believe that the values shown on there are good..
For example when I put in my old address and it brings up homes for sale in my old community..the prices it brings up no longer exist..but are much lower..so that throws off the Zillow estimate since it is basing its price on other homes that are for sale in the community…Still showing a foreclosure at the price of $650K when the home is now listed at $515K..it has been at that price now for almost 1 month..
Tell her we said NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
600 is big when you don’t have it.
ONLY 600 more is so much when you also have to pay upkeep etc.
And where can you get a bartending job to earn 10k in 3-4 months?
Sheesh. I will go to Bartending school if that is the case.
She should stick to the “wait and see”. The kids do not know the difference. When they are 25 or older they won’t be saying ‘
oh gosh if only I had my own bdr’ they will say that their mom was with them all the time.
Sizzle to fizzle for novice Chinese investors
April 20, 2008
By Chris O’Brien - BEIJING — A year ago, the mantra for millions of novice investors in China was simple: Buy stocks, make money. The Shanghai composite index soared to five times its value of two years earlier, and the euphoric mood of China’s new army of speculative traders was captured by the hit online song “I won’t sell my shares even if I’m dead.”
Since the index peaked at 6,124 points in October, though, elation has given way to depression. The market has plummeted by more than 40 percent, and small-time investors, already battling rising inflation, are suffering the most.
Mrs. Wang, a Beijing retiree who gave only her last name, spent months being regaled by moneymaking yarns from her friends and relatives, many of whom were among the 300,000 Chinese people opening stock accounts every day. She dived in at the end of last year, but her timing could not have been worse.
“I wanted to earn quick money to offset the food-price rises. My pension is only 700 yuan [$100] a month. At first, I made about 2,000 yuan, but now I’ve lost a third of my savings. I had no idea it could go down this low. Everyone is suffering,” she said.
Trading offices across China are full of people like Mrs. Wang — urban retirees who have gambled their life savings on something they knew little about. Now they are looking for someone to blame, and accusations based on rumors of shady insider dealings fly. Government officials are often the first to blame.
http://tinyurl.com/5666av
It looks like China is really beating the heck out of their Wangs. That will be painful.
Haha!
Mike
LOL
SANTA FE—A White Rock couple has this proposal: Write a 500-word essay and you could win their home.
http://www.lcsun-news.com/ci_8985476?source=most_viewed
White Rock is a bedroom community of Los Alamos National Labs. It’s a nice town and I have several friends there but the housing market there isn’t $250K by any means.
“If I don’t win your house, I will hunt you down like the dogs that you are.”
-NYCityBoy’s submission
LMAO!! You’re on a roll today…
There’s one in Colorado doing the same thing. http://tinyurl.com/5c2wa3
Illegal rafflle. They never get enough “entries” anyway.
How does something like this work with regard to taxes, etc? Say the sellers get 2500 entries and they pick a winner. I’m assuming they have to report the $250,000 “earnings”. Is it reported as extra income? Or as a sale from the house? And what about the winning buyer? Do the records show they paid $100 for the house? (Talk about screwing up comps!)
Interesting idea. If I could win a house by writing an essay and writing a $100 check, hell yes I’d do it! (I mean if I could see into the future and see that I was the winner.)
“I mean if I could see into the future and see that I was the winner.”
LOL - it would really mess up Vegas if everyone was like you.
From MSN Money, the Avg Joe still can’t afford a home:
http://tinyurl.com/6lzkvw
Duh.
It just proves my theory the average American has no clue how to use a calculator, or else they would have realized what a bad deal they were getting.
I would like to see MANDATORY For Graduation a civics and financial education class for High Schools and Colleges A full year of explaining how our legal system operates and enough math so you would have 2 chances to never have anyone to blame ever again for you screwing up
Most people have no clue how to read a lease or under what conditions you can withhold rent, or how to use small claims to get justice when a landlord or car dealer ties to rip you off. No more excuses for being DUMB.
My stepson took some sort of senior Prep for Life class where they were supposed to learn how to manage their finances. He went right into the Marines after HS and in few months we started getting collectionc calls here…LOL
“From MSN Money, the Avg Joe still can’t afford a home:”
Following the link in the article it appears that Fannie Mae sponsored the research. The conclusion doesn’t mention that the GSEs might be behind the affordability problems.
Why in the hell are you trying to desparately buy anything ever…unless its antivenom for a snake bite? Investing doesn’t involve desperation, maybe you need to rethink your goals and your investment status.
I have a couple of new anecdotals from my area of New Hampshire. Nothing really new on the housing front, a few new listings, pendings are rare but do happen on occasion (don’t know if they actually close). Not many pricing reductions, but there are a few of those as well. Inventory is slowly building.
My wife frequents some of the many small antique/craft stores in the area. She came back with some nice old chairs for our 3 season porch ($10/chair) from a store that is closing after 20 some years. The owner told her that a local photographer, who places his work throughout the state, has been notified to come and collect his pieces from over 40 stores that are in the process of closing.
The available rentals in the area are climbing rapidly and the rental prices are being lowered. My neighbor just told my wife that she is going to move out of her rental (she moved in 4 months ago) because she can now save at least $200/month on a larger unit than what she is in.
Her boyfriend spent some time chatting with me and went into a diatribe about how taxes are skyrocketing (btw, the town budget was voted down) and it is cheaper to rent (he is in construction, a plumber I think).
The whole mood around here is changing. Not panic or anything but this recognition that something is amiss, but not yet defined.
The housing prices around here are no where near affordable for this community. You’d think that at least a few folks would get a clue and lower their price in order to beat a hasty retreat from this looming debacle. To date that has not been my observation though.
I ordered a custom frame from a woman who makes mosaics from old glass fragments, they’re really beautiful - she frequents antique shops for old pottery, etc. for her work. (http://melissasmotif.com)
She informed me that she can no longer find anything, all the antique shops in her area of Illinois are closing. I think hard times are coming to artists and those who make their living creating non-essentials.
Beautiful stuff! I’m going to get one too.
It looks like she only sells wholesale. Where did you get yours?
Looks like you can just e-mail her and let her know what you’re interested in.
TX, tell her I sent you (see my website) - her sister is one of my artists. They’re an amazing family!
You ever been to this place? I love their cookbook
http://www.hellsbackbonegrill.com/
Stayed at the Boulder Mtn Lodge a few years back and ate there. Very nice people, great food. The sign entering Boulder says, “Freedom From Religion.” The whole town is pretty much a bunch of free spirits, and it’s absolutely gorgeous country. Highly recommend.
The sign entering Boulder says, “Freedom From Religion.”
No shortage of churches in Boulder, last time I looked.
We’re talking about Boulder, Utah, not in Colorado.
Usually, government works slow,” said Johnson, who earns about $18,000 a year as a landscaper for the city’s parks and recreation department. “But these guys really moved fast.”
Johnson bought his three-bedroom, one-bathroom Westwood neighborhood home in 1996 for $49,500. He said his mortgage was $949 a month.
How in the name of he** do you wind up with a $949 MTG on a home you paid 49,500 for? Once again, another sob story that must have a TON of HELOC on the other side of it! 949 should pay off that MTG in about 5 years!
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/localnews/content/local_news/epaper/2008/04/20/s21a_foreclose_johnson_0420.html
Sorry for all the links today, my local paper is full of gems!
Maybe that includes his escrow.
Moreover, how the heck do you fall behind on the payments?
He bought the place in 1996 - I assume the $949 payment is a consequence of a few cash-out refi’s. But still.
A Sign of things to come?
Violent Weekend Continues: 32 Shot, 6 Dead
CHICAGO (CBS) ― A violent and deadly weekend continues in Chicago. At least 12 people have been shot, two of them killed, since Saturday morning. This comes after at least 20 people were shot, four of them killed, from Friday night through early Saturday.
A 28-year-old man was shot and killed at an auto body repair shop on the Southwest Side Saturday morning. Raul Lemus was shot in the stomach at 2520 W. 59th St. at about 11:20 a.m.
Lemus, of 4630 S. Talman Av., died several hours later at Stroger Hospital, making him the sixth person killed in Chicago since Friday night. Police said the shooting appeared to be gang related.
Also Saturday morning, Michael Giles, 26, was shot and killed inside his home at 336 N. Avers Av. Harrison Area detectives are investigating.
In another case, a suspect toting an AK-47 has been charged with murder and three counts of attempted murder after allegedly killing a man and shooting at police. Bennie Teague of 6200 S. Sacramento Av. is due in bond court Sunday afternoon.
It’s amazing no one was hurt during the shootout between police and Teague, who was firing an assault rifle. Police say the gunman opened fire on them Friday night at 110th and South Union. They tracked him down after he allegedly shot and killed 34-year-old Marcus Hendricks inside a plumbing business a few blocks away.
more:
http://cbs2chicago.com/local/chicago.weekend.violence.2.704117.html
If elected, Sen. Obama promises to withdraw US forces from Chicago.
Any speculation on effects on secondary/vacation home market? I would assume so since many were probably financed with equity loans/second mortgages. Haven’t seen much on this yet.
By NAR’s own figures, 40% of the housing boom was 2nd/vacation house scams and they concede they’ve gone away. By looking at vacation destinations, I’d say the market is non-existent. Look no further than Florida for proof.
Check out Indian Wells,CA and see if there are any there. But probably not as those homes/town are the wealthiest of the wealthy. 85% of homes are vacant during 6+ mos per yr.
Check out this bit of quality reporting….
http://www.azcentral.com/realestate/articles/0417gl-realqa0417-ON.html#comments
Man, love the comments on that one. That vodogas seems to assume than only bitter renters could possibly think that RE prices could or should fall. His accusation that one of the poster must be a renter was hilarious. Plenty of people who post on THIS board are owners and are convinced that prics will and should fall. The idea that self-interest fuels ALL analysis shows where HIS head is.
‘Go back to your $12 per hour cubicle jobs and your apartments and let the adults worry about the real estate market.’
‘If you do, in fact, own a house, why aren’t you hoping for a upturn in the market rather than a further drop? Wouldn’t an upturn help your property values? You sound suspiciously like a renter to me. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck… ‘
I hope someone creates a time capsule for these blogs and gets it in a museum annex some time in the distant future. Future scholars will want to study the nuances of net comedy.
That is me he was attacking. He’s a mortgage originator. I mean… WAS! He thinks the crash is my fault, and the fault of people that think like me.
He just doesn’t accept that all bubbles go bust.
I am a renter. Twice I have had to move here in the Fresno area because the owner wanted to sell. By October 2008 I would have been in the present house three years, a record; however, the own has to do a short sale. He bought two homes on one lot, a main 3-bedroom house and a mother-in-law 2-bedroom. He is a painting contractor and his business went down hill so now he has to do a short sale. The lease goes to October and will be honored. The owner wants to keep us in here because he is current and the bank will repossess if he misses payments he says. The real estate agent thinks the property will be sold to an investor because of the two-house on one lot situation and we could keep living here. The mother-in-law house is being vacated because of retirement and I could retire myself possibly at the end of the lease, it just depends on a possible pay raise in July and my retirement is based on the best year of income. My wife says she refuses to move into another rental and we will buy a large RV she says, and live in that until we know what we are going to do. If we go with an RV, I want old and cheap, she wants new and expensive. I would like to travel some on retirement. I actually feel sorry for the owner because he wanted to use these properties for money to retire.
The “I am a renter” statement kind of reminds me of AA meetings where you confess, “I am an alcoholic.”
But Fres, I must confess - I, too, am a renter.
But don’t go expensive if you buy an RV. Gas will be a killer. Don’t sink a lot of cash into something you may have sitting in your driveway as a tribute to the era of Dinosaurs (referring to both RVs and fossil fuels).
We rent too! I don’t care if we DO have to move, not gonna buy till the waters hit low tide…
I’ve owned, I’ve rented.
Renting is cheaper.
Headaches are nonexistant.
Were you planning a towable or motorhome?
Probably a RV because that is what my wife wants. I have a 1995 Crown Victoia that used to be police car that could tow a 22 foot travel trailer. Those police cars have heavy duty everything except possibly the automatic transmission. I have the transmission out and someday will finish the rebuild. Had breakage of a one wayclutch. My brother, who has a transmission shop in North Virginia, is happy to give me any verbal help and set me up with his parts suppliers. A shift kit and later version of the oneway clutch should make this a strong unit capable of towing reliabily a 5000 pound trailer, which the owner’s manual says the car will do. I would probably get about 12 mpg with this setup, but that would be driving at about 55 miles per hour.
The problem with an RV is that those in the 30 foot range get about 6 miles per gallon if they are pre 1990. These cost about $6000 for a good one that was an upscale vehicle when manufactured. The later ones later than that have automatic transmissions that have a lockup torque converter and those get 10 or 11 miles per gallon and cost at a minimum $13,000. However, I really do not like automatics because I never know when they are going to blowup on me. My brother says cars with standard transmissions last almost twice as long as automatics and that is quite a savings. The only RV I know of that has a standard tranmission were some small ones on a Toyota one ton truck chassis, although a bus converson could have a standard. One very nice thing about a bus is that they will go a million miles and in accident, will not go into a thousand pieces like an RV will. Also, a lot of RVs are build on too small a chassis. The distance from the front tire to the rear tire (the wheel base) when divided by the total length of the RV should be greater than 54% for a stable vehicle. We looked at a very nice Winnebago several weeks ago that was 51% and it was somewhat like an unguided missle above 45 mph on a country road. It would not be much better on a freeway and would be unsafe. On a travel trailer the weight at the hitch should be 10% to 15% of the weight of the trailer or the trailer will want to fish tail. That is very unsafe. Always make sure there is enough weight in the front of the trailer and take into consideration the amount of liquids in the various tanks for this weight distribution.
I say go for a vintage Airstream, pre 67 is what I was told.
Try to find a tandem axle, which is hard to find, but worth it. Will find link in a minute.
However, with the economy, I would think Craigs list would yield lots of people having to sell fast. Cheap.
Good luck, let us know the end result.
http://trailerworks.biz/index.html
and vintagecampers.com
Been following the one guy for along time. His trailers are great.
Some are vintage as is as new, some are completely retrofitted, insulation/wiring etc as if brand new.
But I can see your wifes desire for new/bumpout etc.
I just love the old stuff.Made brand new.
I love the old stuff also. I would really like a 40 foot Spartan made just after WWII. It had an aluminum skin like the Airstream, and just as up scale. Better to get something well made to begin with.
What do you mean overbuilding can hurt rentals, neighborhoods, and home values???
http://www.madison.com/wsj/topstories/282240
Spending slowing across America
NEW YORK TIMES NEWS SERVICE
April 20, 2008
Americans are cutting back on purchases of things they do not have to have, sending retail sales down sharply at many types of stores.
Those cutbacks, which now seem to be worse than at any time since the 1990-91 recession, are helping to slow the economy and to spur calls in Washington for more fiscal stimulus even before the government starts sending money to most taxpayers next month.
Funny, I’ve noticed that I seem to ramping it up now. LOL
Always the contrarian - LOL!
I’m ramping up myself. I took my sons on a three-hour spree yesterday afternoon to Carmel Mountain Ranch commercial shopping megaplex. We started with lunch at a favorite sushi restaurant, which was only 10 pct occupied during the peak noon lunch hour. Next we moved on to a discount shoe store, where men’s sandals were selling at a rather undiscounted price of $50 a pair. I futilely haggled a bit with the clueless manager, then moved on to Mervyn’s next door, where I purchased comparable quality sandals for $25 (half-off sale). Next we went to Home Depot, where there was no waiting in the checkout lines for a big box store of perhaps 90,000 sq ft of floor space — sweet!
Are they Jesus sandals? Your kids may not want to be seen with you
I thought Jesus made his living as a religious leader, a fisherman and a carpenter. I was not aware he was also a cobbler. He was quite the multi-talented guy!
Whatever you say about Him, remember:
Jesus Saves
Americans Spend
MMMMMMmmmmm sushi…. If only I didn’t have to take a 1.5 hour drive to T-Town to go to the nearest sushi bar…
You’re probably one of the few who’s income is actually going UP…..
My husband got a shocking 60% raise on Friday.
“spur calls in Washington for more fiscal stimulus”
Funny how giving back our own money, which only has to be paid back by us taxpayers, is fiscal stimulus.
Unfortunately, I won’t qualify. Or I would just stimulate my savings, with an extra deposit. I suspect that a lot of these checks will be going towards debt payments. Effectively making the stimulus plan a bank subsidy.
Funny how giving back our own money, which only has to be paid back by us taxpayers, is fiscal stimulus.
They aren’t giving us back our own money, they are forcing us to borrow money that we will have to repay down the road. Big difference.
“Effectively making the stimulus plan a bank subsidy.”
There it is!
When the money eventually circulates its way to the banks, in the banks it will stay, to replenish much depleted reserves.
Fresh money dumped into the system will vanish from circulation just as the money already in circulation is vanishing.
This process will continue as the upcoming $billions get written off, IMO.
unfortunately, the fiscal stimulus money is almost gone: suck by the oil companies and oil exporters.
Does anyone have a logical surmise about what would happen to house prices, and how fast, if the US were to attack Iran?
Optimist.
Roidy
The irony that the MSM and our gov/bush don’t want us to see, is that iran is glad we did 3 things for them…
got rid of saddam,
got rid of the al qaeda from near them,
made their country safer and they are making $.
So why would they be doing anything against US?
I dont’ see it.
And the msm don’t want us to see it.
Just prepare for another lie and fabricated attack.
Well I knew this was gonna happen soon but I just didn’t know when…
We attend an non-denominational, non-holy roller Christian church. Part of the gig is taking prayer requests before the preaching begins every week. Sure enough, a woman shows up, unknown to anyone and raises her hand when the pastor asked for prayer request. Her request? “A prayer to help sell my house. I’m only looking to net 50k so I can start my life over”. I play guitar so I sit up front facing the congregation with the rest of the musicians and my wife and I look at each other instantly. We both looked like we were gonna fall out of our seats because we were both waiting for this very event to happen. Too funny.
Tell her that if she wants a miracle, go to Lourdes and see if she witnesses any.
When you get to Lourdes be sure to dip a statue of St. Joseph into the water.
But don’t hold him under to long else the magic will wash off.
So, Ex, tell me, do you use that Les Paul in church?
My dad used to play his vintage Gibson in church. I always thought it was like being under-employed…just think, if you could pair that with a good vintage tube amp, like an old Marshall stack, and really crank it up.
Acoustic is more conducive to congregational music so I play more of that. I have a cheapo Strat that I play from time to time. I sold all my sweet equipment years ago (custom LP, American Strat and a ES335) when I got married.
Running on Empty
Delinquent Auto Loans Are on the Rise as More Borrowers Drown in Debt
By Ylan Q. Mui
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, April 20, 2008; F01
The phone started ringing as soon as Paula San Gabriel of Bowie missed her first car payment.
The 23-year-old college student bought a used Jeep Grand Cherokee in 2005 for $20,000. Gold with leather interior, it was the perfect car for cruising around with her friends. San Gabriel put down $1,000 and financed the rest under the easy lending standards that once seemed ubiquitous: 9 percent interest with $400 monthly payments spread over six years.
The ride was smooth until San Gabriel hit a road bump in January 2006. The engine broke down, and her warranty had expired. Fixing her car could cost as much as $5,000 — money she could not spare considering the size of her car note. Driven partly by financial crisis and partly by sheer frustration, San Gabriel stopped making her payments the next month. And the creditors started calling.
“I know the banks don’t play,” she said. “If you’re missing $5 and you’re a day late, they report that stuff.”
The turmoil that has roiled the housing market is also making waves in the auto loan industry. Although auto loans have fixed interest rates — compared with the adjustable mortgage rates that have pummeled homeowners — many consumers are finding that they have taken on more debt than they can handle to purchase their cars as well.
Delinquencies on indirect auto loans, which are made through a third party and constitute roughly 90 percent of car loans, reached more than 3 percent in the fourth quarter of last year, the highest rate in at least 17 years, according to the American Bankers Association. Delinquencies are defined as payments that are more than 30 days past due.
The reasons for that rapid rise are varied, and anecdotal evidence suggests that the delinquencies affect a broad swath of economic classes. Some are the result of homeowners with ballooning mortgages making tough decisions about which bills they can afford to pay. Other car owners succumbed to repayment plans of as long as seven years, compared with the traditional maximum of five years. As a result, Edmunds.com estimates, more than a quarter of auto loans are “upside down,” meaning the borrower owes more than the car is worth. The average negative equity was $4,305.05 in March, up 32 percent from March 2002.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/19/AR2008041900121_pf.html
Condo Glut
Too bad nobody’s buying. According to the Florida Association of Realtors and market expert Jack McCabe of McCabe Research and Consulting (www.mccaberesearch.com), there is currently a five-year supply of condo and townhouse units on the market in Dade County, which represents an inventory of more than 24,000 units.
http://www.builderonline.com/business/condo-glut.aspx
“More than 19,000 condos are scheduled for completion in Miami-Dade County this year, with 6,400 additional units expected in 2009.”
Somebody stop them. Please!
What do you have against market-driven affordable housing?
Frank says $300 bn in mortgage guarantees will cost $3 bn to provide, and the CBO already has estimated $6 bn (twice as much). How can reasonable estimates be obtained without bothering to ask Mr Market what he would charge for such guarantees? Rather than dumping (implicit) premiums on to the taxpayers’ backs without a clue about the real price tag, how about if our gubmint outsourced the mortgage guarantee business to the private sector, from which a realistic cost estimate could be obtained?
Mortgage plan could cost taxpayers $6bn
By James Politi in Washington
Published: April 18 2008 03:58 | Last updated: April 18 2008 03:58
A Democratic proposal to use public funds to guarantee up to $300bn in mortgages could cost the US taxpayer up to $6bn, according to a preliminary assessment by the Congressional Budget office.
Barney Frank, the powerful chairman of the financial services committee, on Thursday unveiled details of legislation to stem the wave of US home foreclosures through an expansion of the Federal Housing Administration.
Frankly speaking, I don’t believe there is any accurate way to prospectively estimate the cost of $300 bn worth of mortgage guarantees, other than taking competitive bids for covering the liability from private insurers. But $3 bn to $6 bn sounds quite optimistic, especially given that the estimate came from the office of the legislation’s key sponsor. Talk about moral hazard and conflict of interest!
Panel to Vote on Mortgage Fund
By SARAH LUECK and DAMIAN PALETTA
April 18, 2008; Page A4
(See corrections & Amplifications item below.)
WASHINGTON — In an effort that would give the federal government a central role in stemming the foreclosure crisis, House Democrats proposed a bill that would create an insurance fund guaranteeing up to $300 billion in refinanced mortgages.
The proposal from Rep. Barney Frank (D., Mass.), chairman of the House Financial Services Committee, is scheduled for a vote next week before that panel, with consideration in the full House expected in early May.
Mr. Frank’s office issued a preliminary estimate that the plan would cost the government about $3 billion to $6 billion, or 1% to 2% in losses, as some borrowers default and the amount recovered in foreclosure is less than the outstanding principal. The Congressional Budget Office, which produces official estimates of legislation, has not yet issued its assessment.
That cost will be crucial as lawmakers consider the bill. If seen as favorable, the estimate would help broaden support for the legislation from conservative Democrats or moderate Republicans who are concerned about the impact on taxpayers.
…
Write to Sarah Lueck at sarah.lueck@wsj.com and Damian Paletta at damian.paletta@wsj.com
Corrections & Amplifications: Cost estimates relating to mortgage-insurance legislation were generated by the office of Rep. Barney Frank, the chairman of the House Financial Services Committee, who proposed the legislation. An earlier version of this article incorrectly attributed the estimates to the Congressional Budget Office.
This is just sick. Or pathetic, I’m not sure which.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/04/18/lw.pricey.bday.parties/index.html
How about both????
try both.
Don’t know about sick, but pathetic and disgusting, for sure.
Complex debt deal volumes hit 10-year low
By Saskia Scholtes and Ben White in New York
Published: April 6 2008 23:20 | Last updated: April 6 2008 23:20
Merrill Lynch, Citigroup, UBS and other banks have seen their complex debt securities businesses wither as new deal volumes tumbled to a 10-year low in the first quarter.
First quarter new issue volumes for securities backed by US residential and commercial mortgages fell between 80 and 95 per cent year-on-year, according to data from Dealogic and Total Securitization, an industry publication.
Union calls for Citigroup break-up
By Francesco Guerrera in New York
Published: April 21 2008 00:03 | Last updated: April 21 2008 00:03
One of America’s largest unions will on Tuesday call for a break-up of Citigroup in a move that underlines the challenges faced by the beleaguered financial services group’s management.
The American Federation of State County and Municipal Employees (Afscme) plans to call on other investors at Tuesday’s annual shareholder meeting to support a split between Citi’s investment banking and commercial banking divisions, union officials say.
Everything’s contained and we’re on our way back up. Asia up anywhere from 2-4% tonight. National City getting bailed out tomorrow.