Fifty Cents On The Dollar Is Not Good Enough
Reuters reports on Florida. “The surprisingly healthy market for oceanfront mansions and palatial condos in Florida, one of the most toxic states in America’s housing meltdown, may finally be showing some cracks. At a recent luxury property auction in Fort Lauderdale, the auctioneer took home after home off the block within moments after opening the bidding when nobody made an offer.”
“On one high-rise condo in the Miami enclave of Williams Island, a 3,100 square foot penthouse previously listed at $5.6 million, he opened bidding at $5 million, lowered his price to $3.5 million, $3 million, $2.5 million, and then closed the auction, all within a minute.”
“‘There’s just not that much enthusiasm or activity in the luxury market,’ said Jack Winston, a real estate analyst in Miami.”
“One man snapped up two bayfront houses in Miami Beach’s pricey Venetian Islands, one for $500,000 and the other for $1 million. The homes sold for $2.75 million and $2 million respectively in mid-2005, according to county records.”
“Guido Teichner, a would-be buyer who said he attended the auction looking to make a killing, put in a $500,000 bid on a two-story, 4,000 square foot (370 square meter) penthouse condo in downtown Fort Lauderdale that had previously been listed at $3 million.”
“The bid…was accepted at auction but still awaited seller approval because it was below the minimum bid. ‘Fifty cents on the dollar is not good enough in this market,’ he said. ‘I don’t think we’ve hit bottom yet so you’ve got to get a real steal to allow for a little remaining downside.’”
The Miami Herald. “Behind the guarded gates of Weston’s toniest neighborhoods sit multimillion dollar estates with lush landscaping, tennis courts and professionally decorated homes with guest quarters. But even in these luxury enclaves, the harsh realities of the struggling housing market are making themselves right at home.”
“‘If you talk to anybody and they say this market isn’t affecting them, they’ve got to be lying. It is affecting everybody — maybe some more than others — but everybody,’ said Robin Cervini, a Realtor in Weston (who) as worked in the area for nearly 15 years.”
“At the beginning of April, Cervini said, there were 107 Weston homes for sale that were priced at more than $1 million in the MLS system Cervini said only 11 homes in that price range have sold since the beginning of the year.”
“Gary Brown has had his 12,000-square-foot, six-bedroom home in Windmill Ranch Estates on the market for more than a year. It’s listed for $6.4 million. He is looking to downsize, perhaps along the water somewhere in Fort Lauderdale.”
“After lowering the price on his home by $1.5 million already, he would be willing to listen to alternative offers.”
“‘I’m guessing there might be somebody whose family is going in the other direction from where I am going — who is looking for a larger home and may not be in a position to acquire something that would turn out to be expensive tax-wise but who would find Weston appealing and trade their house for mine,’ he said.”
“While some people with homes on the market are downsizing, upsizing, relocating or selling for other reasons, Cervini also is seeing many homes going into short sales or foreclosures. Many are investors who bought hoping to flip the homes for a profit.”
“‘They just bought at the wrong time,’ she said.”
The Sun Sentinel. “A master plan that cost taxpayers $185,000 and lays out the framework for that new downtown could be overly optimistic in this economic slump. It calls for at least 1,000 residences centered on a future transit station in downtown Boynton Beach. But home sales have collapsed. New construction has stalled. At least eight planned housing developments remain on hold.”
“According to Metrostudy, there were 2,061 units that were either built or converted to condos in the greater Delray Beach and Boynton Beach area in 2006. A year later, there was a 65 percent decline. A total of 729 units were built or converted in 2007. In the last half of the year, only eight condo units were built.”
“David Levin, a housing consultant and analyst in Delray Beach, is skeptical a formula that paints such an elaborate downtown could work for Boynton Beach: ‘The build it and they will come mentality doesn’t work, not right now,’ he said. ‘There’s a limit to how many Las Olas [Boulevards] and Lincoln Roads you have. How many towns need them?’”
The Orlando Sentinel. “Darrell H. Johnson and Kevin C. Miller of Smith Equities’ special assets disposition group represented Winter Park Residences Corp. in the acquisition of the 209 unsold units in the 256-unit Summerlin at Winter Park Condominiums.”
“The new owners will complete renovations and begin leasing and sales of newly remodeled apartments in the project, creating a hybrid housing complex, Miller said. ‘We’re working on some others, but these are difficult to close,’ Miller said of the partially completed conversions, known in the industry as ‘fractured condo conversions.’”
“The property was converted to condos in March 2006 by Hialeah-based Puig Inc. After the condo market stalled, Puig filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in May 2007, and included the property in the filing.”
“The Summerlin was sold out of bankruptcy by Banco Popular, which held the senior debt. The price was $11.8 million.”
“Robert Smith, president of Smith Equities, said managing the mixture of individual owners and renters in a fractured condo conversion presents challenges for the investor.”
“Conversions result in higher property taxes that need to be appealed to reflect the lower value of reverting to rentals, Smith said. Accounting practices also must take into account shared costs and operation of the property between the investor and condo association.”
“Johnson said many potential buyers ‘are still waiting on the sidelines’ looking for ‘fire-sale’ prices, even though deals already can be negotiated at prices below unit-replacement costs.”
The Herald Tribune. “The father-and-son team behind an inventive offer to buy back certain condos they built if the properties lose value in the next three years have no real intention of doing so. Not that they will not honor the deal — they just do not think they will be asked to.”
“‘I have tremendous faith and confidence in this market, especially the Sarasota market,’ said Rob Morris III, who co-owns Ramar Group Cos. with his father, Bob Morris Jr. ‘This is absolutely paradise.’”
“The guarantee applies to 15 unsold units at Phillippi Landings and 25 at the Cape Haze Resort near Boca Grande in Charlotte County. The units range in price from $500,000 to $2.1 million.”
“Bob Morris said that as they sell the units it will provide the capital to build even more condos, which Ramar wants to do as foot traffic to their existing available units is up from last year.”
“‘That doesn’t mean we’ve had more sales,’ Bob Morris said. ‘Our customers are basically afraid to make decisions even though they found a place they like.’”
“Bob Morris had no guess as to when the housing market would turn around, but he does have a good idea what will happen when it does. ‘One of the most foolish things to do is call the bottom. Because when the bottom hits it will launch off and you’ll miss it,’ he said. ‘Once this inventory is sold off prices are going to increase with a vengeance.’”
“Figures from the Florida Association of Realtors show that condo sales during February were down 24 percent, with 210 units selling in Sarasota-Bradenton. The median sales price of $211,500 was down 41 percent when compared with the same time in 2007.”
“In the Charlotte County-North Port market, the association reports that sales were down 20 percent, with 24 units selling. The median sales price was $110,000, down 20 percent from the same time a year ago.”
“If you own or plan to buy a condominium, an ominous new phase of the mortgage credit squeeze could be looming on your horizon.”
“As a result of underwriting changes by giant investors Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, plus severe new restrictions by private mortgage insurers, getting a loan on a condo unit — or even refinancing one you already own — could prove tougher than you imagined.”
“For example, starting May 1, AIG United Guaranty, a major private mortgage insurer, no longer will write coverage on condominiums in hundreds of ZIP codes across the country that it designates as having ‘declining’ market conditions. The ban is irrespective of applicants’ credit scores, assets or equity stakes.”
“Even in the healthiest real estate markets, United Guaranty will require buyers to put at least a 10 percent down payment into the deal, and will reject applications on units in condo projects where more than 30 percent of the owners are investors.”
“‘It’s ridiculous,’ said Phil Sutcliffe, principal of Project Support Services, who helps put together condominium project financings for developers.”
“For instance, said Sutcliffe, the new Fannie guidance requires loan officers to make certain that at least 10 percent of a condominium project’s current operating budget is reserved for ‘capital expenditures and deferred maintenance.’”
“Sutcliffe, who has analyzed condo project budgets for two decades, says there are no wiggle-room provisions in the guidance for ‘compensating factors.’”
“Freddie Mac spokesman Brad German acknowledged that the changes would make condo unit loans ‘more labor and paper intensive for the lender,’ but said weak sales, growing numbers of financially troubled projects, and declining property values made them necessary.”
“‘Even if you had an 800 FICO score and 50 percent equity,’ said Jeff Lipes, president of Family Choice Mortgage Corp., ‘you still might not be able to get a condo loan’ under certain circumstances.”
“Bruce A. Calabrese, president of Equitable Mortgage Corp., said ‘everybody is really backing off condos; because of all the restrictions and changes.’”
“He said he personally owns two condo units — one in Florida, another in Myrtle Beach, S.C. — and even though he is in the mortgage industry, ‘I don’t think I could refinance either of them right now if I tried.’”
The News Herald. “Bay County foreclosure listings jumped again in March, and a spokesman for RealtyTrac said Wednesday that Florida could expect more of the same in the coming months. There were 160 March foreclosure filings in Bay County, a 162-percent increase from the same month in 2007. There were 119 in February.”
“The increase in filings has kept Joe Baranowski busy. He manages a Carillon Beach-based company that assists buyers and sellers in the short sale process and negotiates with banks to avoid foreclosure proceedings.”
“Also a real estate agent with Panama City’s Keller Williams Realty, Baranowski said he was introduced to the short sale pro-cess through personal experience. Baranowski said he ran into financial difficulties with construction projects in the Water-Color and WaterSound developments.”
“‘Those projects were basically unsellable,’ he said.”
“Baranowski said he refers to each foreclosure-related short sale opportunity as a ‘project.’ The company currently has 90 active projects, the most since he started the business. ‘I think that this will continue for the next couple of years at a high rate,’ he said.”
Who’s dreaming now?
On this weekend’s “What inning is it?” thread, I didn’t see how it could be third inning when so many luxury condo projects were just kicking off here in pHX.
Looks like I forgot that all real estate is local.
PHX is headed for the top of the second, but it seems Florida is well into the 4th.
D.C. is still in the first inning.
Agreed. Montgomery County, MD is still taking the tarps off the field.
Our friend who sold in Monkey County in 2007 took about 20% less than what the identical model sold on his street in early 2006. It’s at least the bottom of the third in most D.C. suburbs.
Maryland got into the first inning, and then has decided to let Owe Money (our govenor) come up with “creative solutions” to the problem. We also expect BRAC (closing of other military bases that will bring more people here, in theory) to bring in zillions of new people, all of whom will be buying houses for at least 5 times their household income. Here, $350,000 is considered “affordable” when the average household makes about $60K a year. Right…
I don’t know if we’ll go to the fourth inning from the top of the first, or if we’ll just drift around in limbo forever. My fear is that BRAC will drag things out even longer and keep this whole state grossly unaffordable. That seems to be the twisted version of the American Dream that people want to see, so who knows…
Then no-one will actually qualify to buy those homes.
Still singing the star-spangled banner up here in New Hampshire. It’s depressing.
Not to worry, Auger, some places will go straight to the fourth inning from the opening song…
There is a real short version of the National Anthem for fans in a hurry to get the game on. It goes like this:
Oh, say can you see,
And the Home of the Brave
Play ball!
“Oh, say can you see
And the home of the brave
Play ball - and it’s one two three strikes you’re out at the old ballgame!”
What’s your opinion of Keene? I am a long way from preparing a Florida exit strategy, but I did see an interesting job there.
If you are asking me there Snake, I have only been in state since Jan. and live quite a ways from Keene. I’d go visit the town. Most of the towns appear quite quaint but have the same problems as everywhere else but on a smaller scale (debt, drugs, wives with perpetual headaches, etc). You might find you like the town so I’d go for a visit if I were you.
Keene is out in the middle of nowhere and is prone to flooding when it rains a lot. If that’s what you like, then it might be the right place for you.
The problem with NH and Boston is that their economies aren’t centered around building. There are a LOT of jobs around here. So while CA and FL have seen up to 50% declines in some areas, its been only 25% in the Boston / NH area. I keep hoping the prices will keep coming down, but they’re sluggish. Proud rich liberals don’t believe in losing money on their home, so they’re sticking. Developers are already rich and made so much money it doesn’t matter if they don’t move the prices.
With the absurd property taxes in the northeast (I’m not sure NH is as high as others), I wonder why anyone even buys. $10k+ per year for taxes? F*** that!
NH doesn’t have sales and income taxes so property taxes here are very high. But at least you get to choose your tax rate.
In Maine, too. Prices seem to be softening, but I’ve seen very few foreclosure auctions (one on a mobile home in Wiscasset this week).
Prices didn’t go up here like the rest of the country. The housing collapse in the late 80s and early 90s probably provided some pause for long-timers and there’s still plenty of land up here. But I haven’t seen much of a decline in prices. Foreclosures are up for sure and there are problems looming. All sorts of problems with the State Budget this year.
We are still in the sixth inning of optimist wanna-be Donald Trumps dreaming about real estate riches…
A friend of my cousin took a $5k foreclosure crash course, and is out there putting offers at just under 15 percent of peak prices in San Fernando Valley. He hasn’t gotten one yet, but I’m guessing his offers are closer and closer to getting accepted. While some people never learn, there are some people that have yet to learn.
I’d say Boston is in the second inning. I’ve been tracking a few local listings. Three blocks away a house just closed for $800,000 and the last recorded sales was 9/30/05 for $837,000. No major improvements since prior sale.
1 out in the bottom of the 1st in Fort Worth. I have never seen soo many cranes working at the same time before. They must have had to import them from Dallas. In fact, they will probably have to import folks to live in all those lofts currently under construction.
The group here follows the condos/lofts being built in FW pretty closely:
http://www.fortwortharchitecture.com/forum/index.php?showforum=24
Skip–Thank you for this link! I loved this site and the links to the historic buildings that are being carefully and thoughtfully restored. It was like taking a walk through my old neighborhood (before it became the Historic District!). Wow, I had no idea these buildings were being reclaimed. Like the La Salle Apartments (my grandmother’s house was one block south). Will people really choose to move there? I mean, people who can afford to live elsewhere?
That is the million dollar question because the number of people who can afford $500k condos/lofts in FW is pretty limited. I think we will find out in the next 12-24 months or so..
Talk about beating a metaphor to death….
With baseball bats.
To tie baseball to real estate, Curt Schilling’s house is for sale.
Only $8 million.
http://wbztv.com/sports/curt.schilling.medfield.2.686085.html
‘There’s a limit to how many Las Olas [Boulevards] and Lincoln Roads you have. How many towns need them?’
Where was this thinking in 2002 to 2005? This is absolutely right! Every town in FL thought they could put useless “downtowns” together and people would come, because it’s Florida.
Have you been to Boynton Beach? I can think of a lot of areas that would do a lot better with a project like this. Boynton’s not even in the ballpark.
this is what happens when so called experts in r e try to sell you a dream, not a reality. i keep hearing about foreign investors saving florida. the rest of the world is struggling like us, when it comes to housing. nothing is going to save the florida housing market. and did they really think that every rock star is going to by a condo in downtown delray?
I’m amazing by the amount of luxury homes being built. And luxury features that come with many middle class homes. I imagine the next Great Depression is just around the corner. But the bright side is that while people will be struggling to pay for their food, many of them will have the luxury of cooking their top ramen on beautiful Viking stoves and soak away the worries of their unemployment in their jumbo jetted tubs.
I am convinced that, quite often, those fancy appliances are just for show while the owners have cereal for dinner.
Considering the number of empty McMansions I’ve seen because the owners could not afford furniture, that is almost surely true.
Then, there’s the other group that eat out every night (charging it all to the credit card that never gets paid off) while only using the kitchen for “dinner parties” that never happen because they are driving an hour to work and an hour back (if they are lucky) while working late to make the teaser payments on their McMansion.
Ah, the new American Dream!
Who says they will be able to afford cereal? Cereal goes for 4.50/box these days. It’s ramen noodles for FBs!
Lol… that’s what I was thinking. Cereal IS expensive. Though I buy my jumbo packs of Kashi Crunch at Costco.
Speaking of these people buying McMansions and putting on a show of wealth. My husband and I looked at some lovely forclosed McMansions on a nice new development just yesterday. Those homes, which were all 4000 +sf on 1/2 acre lots, I’m sure originally sold for a million. And were now in the mid-700k range and the prices were set to drop more in the next week. From the balcony of one of the homes, we could see into a bunch of backyards. One of the neighbors had a large pool, but all the rest of the homes had no landscaping done in the back, just a big patch of overgrown weeds. JMHO, but I don’t think people should be buying into million dollar homes if they can’t afford to landscape it. All I could think of looking at these backyards was that a lot of these neighbors were on the verge of being part of the next wave of forclosures. I gotta add, too, that according to the real estate agent, these homes were getting offers. But the loans fell through in the middle of escrow, since this past month has seen much tighter standards from lenders. Perhaps someone else can clarify this, but my guess is that the results of these tightened lending standards are so recent that they haven’t fully been realized by the public and in the statistics.
I’m open to the suggestion that I might be too pessimistic, but I don’t know how anyone can see we’re close to a bottom. And I don’t see any easy way out of this. Consumer and national debt have been rising for years now. With such a large percentage of the population affected by the housing bubble –either because they bought or borrowed on their homes at the hight of the bubble– I don’t know how this mess can resolve itself very quickly or without seeing much more pain.
Anyone have any good recipes for Top Ramen?
Time for a bowl of yummy Kashi Crunch!
I agree with you that many of the people in these McMansions got in with all kinds of CRAZY financing from Pick a Pay ARMS to NINJA Loans to Teaser Rates..
Now those communities will be the next BIG wave to suffer..We have a community out in my area..that touted its horn as Million Dollar Home Central..well with the most expensive foreclosure in the city now, builders are getting nervous and slashing prices on those million dollar babies by a couple of hundred grand, building out basements and so on..THINK ANYONE IS BUYING THEM? Nope..Who would want to invest in a community with that kind of money with the stigmatism of a MILLION DOLLAR FORECLOSURE on a home built in 08! That home alone will bring the property values, of the older homes down significantly on top of scaring anyone with any brains away..
I expect that within the next 30 days we will see much more foreclosures in that community as builders in there have to keep making payments on homes that are completed since 06 and still have no buyers…
“The father-and-son team behind an inventive offer to buy back certain condos they built if the properties lose value in the next three years have no real intention of doing so. Not that they will not honor the deal — they just do not think they will be asked to.”
“‘I have tremendous faith and confidence in this market, especially the Sarasota market,’ said Rob Morris III, who co-owns Ramar Group Cos. with his father, Bob Morris Jr. ‘This is absolutely paradise.’”
Can someone please tell me how I can short the Ramar Group Cos. ?
Creative Bankruptcy.
There will be nobody around to left to collect from.
Old news. NEXT.
I would read the fine print very carefully on this offer. Make sure that it is Rob Morris III and Bob Morris Jr.’s personal guarantee, not an LLC.
LLCs can and do go out of business very easily.
He’s certainly not going to sell to locals with that “paradise” line. Not only can we not afford what he’s building, we know that paradise was paved over for parking lots years ago.
Not included in this group of stories is a Saturday article in the Tampa Tribune about underwater condo owners in Tampa Palms being forced to sell when their complex is turned into repartments. My favorite: following the original conversion, only 31 of the 365 units in the complex sold as condos. I bet the developer put up a sign saying “only 334 left!”
http://tinyurl.com/4435uz
This poor guy got sucked in by another standard issue REaltor lie:
Stanley Romanek said he paid $175,000 for his unit in October 2006 and was told at the time that the complex was nearly sold out.
The comments following that article are pretty good.
A friend of mine asked me to look at these condos with him because he thought they were a good investment back in Sept. 2006. The realtor informed him that the condos were a good investment and were nearly sold out.
My friend eager to get a good deal wanted to put a deposit down and sign the contract on the spot until I reminded him of what I do for a living. I pulled the records from the court house and found out that few had sold and the realtor had lied to my friend. So we went back and had the realtor draw up the papers and my friend acted like he was ready to sign them when I asked the realtor to specify in the contract that nearly all of the condos were sold out. The realtor refused and I asked the realtor why. The realtor said it had nothing to do with the sale and I stated it had much to do with the sale as the realtor represented that most of the units had been sold. I asked the realtor to show us the documents that most of these units were sold and the realtor informed us that it was confidential information.
At that point I stopped the realtor and let the realtor know that I had all the records on what sold and that I had just caught her lying to the buyer. My friend blew up very loudly on the realtor and we both walked out.
The consumer needs to do their own research these days to mitigate being swindled by the unethical business people in the real estate business.
…until I reminded him of what I do for a living.
RE attorney?
BTW great story…let’s all play sandbag the realtress!
Stanley Romanek said he paid $175,000 for his unit in October 2006 and was told at the time that the complex was nearly sold out.
…..well, that could be technically a true statement.
Remember people parking out overnight to “get in” on the pre-construction financing.
It’s possible that most of the units had $500 deposits, to be later converted to actual sales contracts, that basically failed to materialize.
It’s like all the “CONTRACT PENDING” bullcrap that Realtors(tm) use. You either have a contract, or you don’t have a contract. Contract pending means you have an “offer submitted” that could never be agreed to.
It just shows how totally ridiculous this market was for 5 to 7 years now, and still, the Realtors(tm) are bombarding us daily with ads about the great “bargains” that we may miss out on if we don’t hurry up and buy in this “buyers market”.
PULEEZE!! Won’t you sleazebags give it rest!
While we are on the topic of “under contract”, what are the legalities of these properties still being shown?
Can sellers renege on the current contract that is “pending” if a higher offer comes in? Anyone know?
Contracts for sale of property are enforceable through specific performance. That means that money damages are NOT sufficient and the seller can be required to perform the contract. Therefore, you can demand the property, and courts will force through deeds etc.
Auger,
The “contract pending” that you see on the yard signs or paper ads means the BUYER has made an “offer” to buy. The seller has not accepted, or the seller made a counter-offer.
It means there is NO CONTRACT. Once both parties agree, then it is a SALE PENDING.
The contract is enforceable once it is executed, meaning both parties have signed on the dotted line. If either party alters the offer, it is not a contract, it is still an offer or counter-offer.
that article is phenomenal…
“The Sun Sentinel. ‘A master plan that cost taxpayers $185,000 and lays out the framework for that new downtown could be overly optimistic in this economic slump. It calls for at least 1,000 residences centered on a future transit station in downtown Boynton Beach.”
WTF? I lived in Boynton Beach for 5 years. It has no downtown.
Must be one of those stupid recently-manufactured “downtowns” popping up everywhere.
Yesterday I went to Gettysburg PA. Now there’s a real downtown. Real downtowns date back more then 5 years.
“‘Even if you had an 800 FICO score and 50 percent equity,’ said Jeff Lipes, president of Family Choice Mortgage Corp., ‘you still might not be able to get a condo loan’ under certain circumstances.”
This potentially has two effects:
(1) a market favoring single family homes, which will ultimately become speculative in areas with a mix of housing types. This will be the same as subsidizing SFHs.
(2) Condominiums will drop in value because the market will become far less competitive, which will attract a larger number of lower income buyers.
IMHO, condos should be encouraged for large urban areas to save on commuting costs and to make better use of land. Renting or buying, they make more sense than subsidizing suburban SFHs, which were overbuilt and too far from jobs.
Just heard an NPR story about the growing unpopularity of suburbs and ex-urbs. Seems that they’re too far away from employment centers, so the houses are tougher to sell. (Sounds like the MSM is picking up on another one of our themes.)
Suburban living will still have its followers as long as the only other option is living in a crime-infested gang-land like Baltimorgue, where the citizens live shoulder-to-shoulder with the criminals, the school system is horrible, the politicians are staggeringly corrupt, and there are no trees or other plants to break up the beautiful sight of endless streets of crumbling rowhomes (many of which are now boarded up and waiting to go up in flames thanks to the Housing Bubble!)
Are use talkin’ bout my hometown of Ballmer there, hon? Sounds like Hollandtown that you’re describing. Or maybe Droodle Park. Or Dundock.
What’s the situation with all those harbor-front condo complexes? Last time I was there (about 5 years ago) they extended all the way from the Inner Harbor well past Fells Point. Are they occupied? At the time I actually felt safe walking that whole distance, maybe I was just blissfully ignorant.
Life in Utah has its issues, but I don’t think I could ever go back to Ballmer at this point.
I don’t know if they are occupied, but they are building more of them now. Also a new condo tower adjacent to Baltimore UofMD
They have additional tourist police for the harbor area.
Hey Shoe, anything to rent down your way?
Thankfully, not every large city has the inner city devastation of Baltimore. I’ll be there for a week on business this summer. I hope it’s not as bad as you guys imply.
Lost,
I haven’t been looking at the boards in town lately, so I’m not sure about rentals. There’s usually a few things available but not too much. Most 2nd homeowners don’t rent out and the hoods in the woods employees over in Loa take up most of the available stuff. You can check the classifieds in the local weekly rag on-line at
http://www.snapshotmedia.com/INSIDER.html
Stuff over here is still selling at (historically) excellent prices as long as it’s under $300K. Above that price, it just sits.
Been kind of wonderin’ what you do to keep your sanity over in GR, not the most exciting place but I guess the price is right. I’m not feeling great about Torrey at the moment either, it’s still cold and the wind this spring is unrelenting.
Did you know Reda H. who used to live in Moab? She has a place over here.
Hey, Shoe, thanks. I was down your way last week and thinking it would be nice to spend the summer there. I knew there was a small paper but couldn’t find one, looked in the PO w/ no luck. Much appreciated. And I do know what hoods you’re referring to
.
Don’t know Reda. Did just talk to a realtor in Moab and she says it’s the slowest it’s been for at least 10 years. She says prices are coming down.
As for GR, I spend a lot of time in the Swell/Reef and GR Desert. Cowboy ain’t happy w/o lonesome country, love the quiet. Love your part of the woods, too. GR has had an awesome winter, no wind, one inch of snow, can get out about anywhere. I’m not the most sociable person, so it’s fine. I go see friends in Moab or Colo. when I get too bored. Thanks again. Hope it warms up down there for you.
Suburbs may become crime infested. How many people face financial ruin. What will they do to put food on the table. If you move to a condo, you can share the price of security at a limited # of entry points. Your costs for heating and cooling are a fraction of the burbs as is your commute.
We live in a townhouse in a suburb and I only have an 11-mile commute. I can also work at home if I want to but I prefer going into the office. A coworker complained to me about heating costs, electricity costs, real estate taxes, etc. on his house. It’s a big million-dollar home about 30 miles away.
We’re just starting to see some criminals (typically young folks) from the cities in MA come down to steal things from residents in our quiet town. I think that our Law Enforcement bills (taxes) will be going up.
Here’s the link:
“Home Prices Drop Most in Areas with Long Commute”
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89803663
“Home Prices Drop Most in Areas with Long Commute”
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89803663
come but then people would have to live around icky minorities and foreigners ….
previously listed at $5.6 million,
taxes in fl about 140k ?
Gary Brown has had his 12,000-square-foot, six-bedroom home in Windmill Ranch Estates on the market for more than a year. It’s listed for $6.4 million. He is looking to downsize, perhaps along the water somewhere in Fort Lauderdale.”
Says in the article he is a “businessman” and built his business from the ground up..well not very smart to put all his eggs in one basket by having a 6 million dollar tax sucking property..I think someone should send him a copy of “The MIllionaire Next Door” as a present…
All the “smart” businessmen I know own a nice home but also OWN several homes in great locations..They buy homes that can be rented for ski season and up in the mountains, and in places like Hawaii and they form a corporation for each one so they can write off “expenses.”…
Good luck selling that McMansion..especially in Weston..not even on the beach!
Miss the bottom??????????? But you can auger into it. One big ol’ smokin hole in the bottom. Wonder what the bottom looks like from the other side?
Yeah, what a tool - and how about this gem: ‘Once this inventory is sold off prices are going to increase with a vengeance.’
And when might that be, Bob? Late 2008? Spring 2009? You’re aiming at a moving target, Bob - ya gotta lead it a little more than that.
“Bob Morris had no guess as to when the housing market would turn around, but he does have a good idea what will happen when it does. ‘One of the most foolish things to do is call the bottom. Because when the bottom hits it will launch off and you’ll miss it,’ he said. ‘Once this inventory is sold off prices are going to increase with a vengeance.’”
What is his drug of choice?
What is his drug of choice?
Real estate.
“…no longer will write coverage on condominiums in hundreds of ZIP codes across the country…” -and-
“…everybody is really backing off condos…”
Here it comes, free fall cannot be too far behind for condos.
condos are already free falling in south florida. the cost is just too much and to see people still asking for 200,000 or more in condos is a joke. even bayview condos in miami have a long way to go, in order to come down to reality. miami’s “downtown” is not very safe and people buying at 1 million dollars in a honeycomb shack in the sky is a little nuts. a cat 4 or 5 will be telling.
Surely, you’re not implying that the modern Tyvek shack with nothing but cheap insulation in the walls cannot withstand a high-end Florida hurricane? Why, I am sure our wonderful Realtors and others in the industry would never sell us a deathtrap just to make a fast buck?! Hahahaha… right!
But hey - in 10 years, that’ll give them an excuse to build new condos on top of the old ones that fell down in a hurricane.
Why is everyone on here so anti-Tyvek. Is tar paper that much better?
What’s funny is all the people who are buying are investors. Where is the “real” demand?
“One man snapped up two bayfront houses in Miami Beach’s pricey Venetian Islands, one for $500,000 and the other for $1 million. The homes sold for $2.75 million and $2 million respectively in mid-2005, according to county records.”
“Guido Teichner, a would-be buyer who said he attended the auction looking to make a killing, put in a $500,000 bid on a two-story, 4,000 square foot (370 square meter) penthouse condo in downtown Fort Lauderdale that had previously been listed at $3 million.”
Guido is looking to make a killing….how unusual
Little Guido was sitting on a park bench munching on one candy bar after another. After the sixth one a man on the bench across from him said, “Son, you know eating all that candy isn’t good for you. It will give you acne, rot your teeth, and make you fat.”
Little Guido replied, “My grandfather lived to be 107 years old.”
The man asked, “Did your grandfather eat 6 candy bars
at a time?”
Little Guido answered, “No, he minded his own damn business!”
I doubt little Guido said “damn”.
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/apr/21/me-as-housing-market-sags-property-taxes-go-unpaid/
TAMPA - A slowing economy and stagnant real estate market has translated into a record year of late property taxes.
Tax collectors in Hillsborough, Pinellas and Pasco counties are reporting dramatically higher numbers of people who missed the April 1 deadline to pay their property tax bill. In Hillsborough County, the increase is near 30 percent.
Real estate experts blame the economy and the continued fallout from the subprime mortgage mess.
“It’s not surprising that when people are unable to pay their mortgages, they’re unable to pay their taxes,” said Mike Larson, an analyst with Weiss Research in Jupiter.
“We’re seeing a lot of desperate people right now trying to hold on their properties and trying to figure out what they should pay and when,” McCabe said.
The tax sale surge isn’t bad for everybody. Investors who dabble in tax sales are hoping to cash in at this year’s auctions.
Ken Blair of Brooksville said he and other investors could enjoy a windfall because more tax certificates for sale means more options for investors next month
Once again I’ll point out how hypocritical the taxing authorities are. When it’s the banks “forcing people from their homes” they wail and fret and search for all kinds of remedies, but when it’s a late tax bill they have no mercy.
For many decades, Florida property tax certificates have been a steady source of income for those people who were willing to stay on top of them. Each, I suppose, counts on lucking out sooner or later with a super-low-cost property because no one else was looking or interested when the deadline for payment arrives. Regardless, the annual interest income is not bad and you get to bid on what that will be.
My brother has made good money this way, most of the certificates are paid off eventually and the interest is good. The one property he did acquire, though, was not really worth any more than the back taxes (vacant land). The tax title is not considered clean either. I don’t know what it takes to get the title companies to sign off on it.
I have to agree with that..and according to Fl tax office after 22 months if you don’t pay your delinquent tax bill..they will come after your house…that is if you still own it!
Guy who bought my house last year..I checked..taxes are late..and he is still riding the curtails of my homestead..wait till it increases for next year…
Forced to give up Condos.
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/apr/19/na-forced-to-give-up-condos/
TAMPA - Shane Mummery and dozens of his neighbors are on the verge of losing their homes - and they face hefty losses on their investments.
They haven’t missed mortgage payments, and they don’t want to sell. But none of that matters.
Mummery and his neighbors own units in a New Tampa complex that failed as an apartment-to-condominium conversion. The 396 units in Portofino were put on the market as condos in 2006, but the developer sold just 31 of them. Last July, an apartment management company bought the rest of the units. Now, that company wants to terminate the condominium, buy out the individual unit owners - at today’s lower market rate - and convert the whole complex back to apartments.
And, apparently, the condo owners may have little say. A revised Florida statute and provisions in the original condominium declaration make it easier for the developer to force owners out.
For Mummery, it doesn’t seem possible.
“It was my interpretation that you buy property and no one has the right to take it from you as long as you make your payments,” Mummery said. “I can’t imagine being told by a court that you must sell, and you must lose money.”
Alan Pollack, an owner of the company, Chicago-based Providence Management Corp., said he understands the owners’ plight but thinks it’s in everybody’s best interest to turn Portofino back into an apartment complex.
“We’re not kicking anyone out of their homes,” Pollack said. “They can live there forever, they just have to rent.”
Stanley Romanek said he paid $175,000 for his unit in October 2006 and was told at the time that the complex was nearly sold out. “I bought at the peak of the market,” he said. “I have a lot to lose.” Romanek said he hasn’t been made a concrete offer yet.
The mgmt company can’t reprice the buyout of those 31 condos a bit higher to at least allow the ‘owners’ to recoup and get out even? How dare those greedy bastards fleece those other greedy bastards!!
Rob
That doesn’t sound right. How can they make someone sell?
If a certain percentage of owners choose to sell, all have to sell. It’s some Florida law. Well the conversion to apartments company owns close to 90% of all the condos. It also says they can be bought for “market value” which is less than the owners of the condos paid.
Here’s my take.
I believe condos are owned as “tenants in common”. As such, when one party wants to terminate the joint interest BUT the property cannot be physically split (or split in some other desired ways), a sale can be forced. I believe this sale requires a court order.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_the_property
“Bob Morris had no guess as to when the housing market would turn around, but he does have a good idea what will happen when it does. ‘One of the most foolish things to do is call the bottom. Because when the bottom hits it will launch off and you’ll miss it,’ he said. ‘Once this inventory is sold off prices are going to increase with a vengeance.’”
The “vengeance> isn’t going to come from prices Bobby Boy. Got body guards?
One of the most foolish things you can do is catch a falling knife. He is trying to call a bottom… don’t let him fool you.
when the bottom hits it will launch off and you’ll miss it…
Maybe bits of it will “launch off” in the mouths of vultures, but the rest of the rotting carcase will be eaten where it lay..
Alot of bottoms are falling
LOL - a guy wouldn’t have thought of that one.
OT banks now showing divs over 5% on average
how could they pay more than 3 or even 2% ?
Because Stock dividends and Account interest rates are two different things ?
in dividends not passbook interest
they’ll all cut eventually
2% on assets is a good year for a bank
A bank around here is still yielding almost 8% and say they intend to maintain the dividend, but I don’t see how they can.
Which banks are paying over 5%?
‘Once this inventory is sold off prices are going to increase with a vengeance.’”
And that will put us right back to the affordability problem that helped crash the housing market. In other words, this builder wants to build a second housing bubble!
“Once I get my job and wife back, I’ll be able to get off the stuff.”
Said the addict.
He needs to tell himself that otherwise he can’t justify what he does for a living.
Should read…
“If this inventory doesn’t sell I am going to be looking for a new job with a vengeance.”
If you can’t afford the payments, just burn it.
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-arson21apr21,0,3776892.story
Can you say 2 cents on the dollar? THat’s where it’s all headed. Mud huts!
A bit off topic, but I noticed the Bank of England announced a $100B plan to get the credit markets going over there. Basically swapping bad notes for good, although they indicate the bank is still on the hook when the loan goes bad.
Anyone remember this? A couple of years ago a group of retirees who lived in a pretty nice trailer park community in Florida right on the water received a humungous offer for their community but they had to take a vote on the sale. It was all over the national news. The people who wanted to stay got out voted. Do any Hbb’ers out there know wjere this was? I’d love to hear a follow up on this story. Now.
See this link.
http://money.cnn.com/2006/12/13/real_estate/trailer_park/index.htm
Many voted against it saying they weren’t being paid enough money. The developer backed out as the economy tanked and the owners of the trailerpark started crying.
There is actually a wikipedia on it. LOL
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Briny_Breezes,_Florida
Hypoluxo Harbor Club is the other Briney Breezes:
http://floridahhc.com/
This small trailer park co-op on Federal Highway on the west side of the intracoastal sold their property for $25M to a developer that backed out of the deal. They are now trying to sell “by owner”. There is a sign in front of the place asking for $18M minimum and they also have ads on Craigslist:
http://westpalmbeach.craigslist.org/rfs/624533072.html
Yes, I remember that well. I think Michael Fink, Mike in FL, Bad Andy or one of the other posters from that area gave us a pretty good on-the-ground description. That was a very interesting study in greed. Sad, but interesting.
“‘I’m guessing there might be somebody whose family is going in the other direction from where I am going — who is looking for a larger home and may not be in a position to acquire something that would turn out to be expensive tax-wise but who would find Weston appealing and trade their house for mine,’ he said.”
Hey maybe if someone finds out their wife is pregnant with 25 children at once, they might need 12,000 SQFT. 12,000 SQFT, give me a break.
I don’t know. Maybe some aspiring polygamist LDS man is looking for such place.
Cinch
Very OT - I save all my change and separate all pre-1970 coins (just for for fun of course…) Ahemm…. Anyway, I found a 1943 zinc penny in my change just now! It’s completely blackened and that’s probably why it stayed in circulation, but I can’t believe it’s been running around for 65 years. I’ll bet some poor squeezed soul finally emptied out the penny jar (you see a lot of people using the Coinstar here and paying 10% for just $8 -$9 worth of change to do it) and it was in it. Very light…
The 1943 penny is actually zinc coated steel.
I just vinegared it - it’s now a dull blue color. Is it steel? It’s actually in pretty good condition.
Yep, there were only a hand full of copper ones made in 1943. Keep it dry or it will rust
Actually was an article a month back where the treasury was thinking of making all coin from steel. Seems copper, zinc,znd nickel are too expensive..You get $120 worth on nickel if you melt $100 worth of nickels I read….Wonder what the paper money will be worth in a short time? Got gold?
“Comment by snake charmer:
“I am convinced that, quite often, those fancy appliances are just for show while the owners have cereal for dinner.”
I worked in the residences of many celebrities/wealthy business people in the LA/OC/Santa Barbara County areas in the 1990’s, and I assure you that at least one drawer was always full of take-out restaurant menus in those Architectural Digest show kitchens with the “no signs of use” All-Clad Cookware always nearby.
“It’s ridiculous…there are no wiggle-room provisions in the guidance for ‘compensating factors.’”
Does he just want lenders (people and institutions) to take their money and “just give it away”?
Hmmph - I do pretty good with a 45 year old set of Paul Revere stainless that’s been used everyday for 4 decades now. My Mom gave em to me (we bought them at Caldors’s in 1966) and they still look good (cook very well too). I’m hoping to hand them down to my Son since he likes to cook.
Oh the QUALITY of what we used to make…