Restoring Some Measure Of Affordability In California
The LA Times reports from California. “They filed into the Eagle Rock open house alone and in groups. Twenty-three families checked out the bedrooms and kitchen during the four-hour open house on a recent Sunday. Three expressed interest in buying the three-bedroom ‘character home,’ as agent Denise Barnes described the 1,364-square-foot 1922 California bungalow, reduced to $605,000 from $645,000. But most said they were waiting for prices to drop further.”
“‘It’s pretty ugly out there,’ said longtime broker David Toyama, who specializes in Eagle Rock, Glassell Park, Highland Park and Azusa. His business is down 50% from a year ago, he said, ‘and that wasn’t our best year either.’”
“The market slide means bargains galore in areas hard hit by foreclosures, such as Hemet 92543 in Riverside County, where median prices plummeted 48%, to $130,000, during the first quarter this year, compared with the same period a year ago, according to DataQuick.”
“Step outside the inland valleys, however, and some sellers still are stuck in the fantasy world of 2005, insisting on prices that buyers won’t entertain for a minute, then despairing when their homes attract no offers.”
“Elizabeth Powell, 28, learned how tough the market is. She first listed her four-bedroom West Covina house for sale for $600,000 in February 2007.”
“Two buyers fell out of escrow due to lending problems — they had difficulty qualifying for jumbo loans — so she lowered the price to $550,000, then $480,000, $460,000 and in August, $430,000. She sold the 1,489-square-foot house in January for $440,000.”
“‘I’m very glad it’s over with,’ Powell said of the selling experience she described as frustrating and stressful. ‘The loan terms kept changing; neighbors started selling their homes for less. I can’t imagine having to sell another property.’”
The Orange County Register. “To say Orange County’s housing market got off to a rocky start in 2008 would be an understatement. Sales and prices are down. But, perhaps more troubling, the total of 2,232 foreclosures during the first quarter was the highest in at least 20 years and up 328 percent from a year ago.”
“During a similar period in the ’90s slump, foreclosures rose at a 123 percent annual clip.”
“Santa Ana tops the list of foreclosure concentrations with two ZIP codes – 92707 and 92701. These two areas saw steep price declines in March. Last month’s median price of $219,000 in 92701 was the lowest in the county and down 37 percent in a year.”
“Each month foreclosures and short sales take up a greater portion of homes on the market, according to Steve Thomas at Re/Max Real Estate Services in Aliso Viejo. In early April there were 5,335 such distressed properties on the market, up 42 percent from Dec. 27 and accounting for 34 percent of all properties for sale at the time.”
“Walter Hahn, a real estate economist in Irvine, said foreclosures either peaked during January’s record high of 802 foreclosures, or they will by June. But it’s not straight down from here, Hahn said.”
“The end of low introductory teaser rates on mortgages are spurring foreclosures now and will do so again in 2010 and 2011, when studies show many loans will see a jump in payments, he said.”
“‘It’s not over,’ Hahn said. ‘It’s not going to be over until 2012.’”
The Daily Bulletin. “Faced with the most severe economic conditions in nearly two decades, Los Angeles County officials today will unveil proposed budgets that are expected to call for wide-ranging service reductions while also asking residents to pay more.”
“The budget squeeze comes as property and sales taxes have plummeted. The last time there was a drop in year-over-year sales- tax revenues was in the early 1990s amid a national recession.”
“‘It is a long, dark tunnel for local government these days,’ said Jack Kyser, chief economist at the Los Angeles Economic Development Corp. ‘You have the housing situation at one of its worst points, retail sales are down, and there is no immediate end in sight.’”
“Adding to pressure on all local government was the decision by county Assessor Rick Auerbach to launch a reassessment of properties as the housing market has plummeted. Auerbach said he plans to review the values of more than 300,000 properties purchased between July 2004 and July 2007 - when prices were at their highest.”
“The average reductions have been $66,000, saving the average homeowner $660 a year in taxes - but also reducing revenue to local government.”
“Jerry Nickelsburg, a senior economist at the UCLA Anderson Forecast, said the problem for local government is that the sectors it relies most on for revenue have been the hardest hit.”
“‘The areas the government relies on - real estate, sales tax and construction - are sectors that are not doing so well,’ Nickelsburg said. ‘We think the home-building sector will reach the bottom sometime this year so that it might come back beginning in 2009. But we don’t expect it to be like the volume of the past few years when government was able to generate a lot of revenue during a speculative boom.’”
The Desert Sun. “Justin Martin found his calling in teaching. He and his wife, Pandara bought a home in La Quinta in 2006 and began settling down. But with the state’s $16 billion budget crisis spilling over into every school district in California, he’s on notice that if the school district can’t cushion a $13.4 million funding shortfall, his job won’t exist next year.”
“Martin is not alone. Some 20,000 teachers, counselors and support staff across the state are in limbo, too. That doesn’t stop the unknown scenarios from running through Martin’s head as he drives to school and works on the house.”
“Instead of dinner out, they use the barbecue. He’s applied to teach summer school. Plans for a December trip to Thailand, Pandara’s home, aren’t so certain.”
“Except for a lone orange tree that’s been planted and the donated cacti they’re getting next month, the yard improvements have to wait. It’s what you do ‘when you have something that could be taken away,’ Martin said.”
“The one thing the couple is committed to is keeping the house, their dream of staying in the Coachella Valley. Between his wife’s fitness jobs at local gyms and private studios, they hope to make it work.”
“They’re committed that, whatever comes, they won’t become one of the 1,200 desert homes that are in stages of foreclosure. ‘I’ll do what I need to do,’ he said. ‘If that means working two or three part-time jobs, I’ll do it.’”
“‘I looked at my house differently. I look at my car differently,’ he said. ‘It makes you question what you need.’”
The Recordnet. “At a Dec. 13 gala to celebrate the opening of downtown’s Sheraton Hotel, a crowd sipped scotch and applauded the largest private investment downtown since American Savings Bank built its Main Street headquarters in 1989.”
“Yet even in December there was trouble at the hotel. San Joaquin County’s housing market - as elsewhere - was collapsing, and hotel owner Regent Hotel LLC had failed to sell any of 42 condominiums atop the hotel.”
“The housing market was more robust in 2004, when Regent promised to build a hotel…on land the city would sell to Regent for $1, and it required a city subsidy of $500,000. The following year, Regent obtained financing for the hotel’s construction, based in part on its expectation of an infusion of revenue from the sale of condominiums at the hotel.”
“And then the housing market fell. ‘The condos, that’s what’s killing us,’ said Rick Oshinski, chief operating officer of the parent company of Regent Hotel. ‘The condo market has gone totally into the toilet.’”
“The condominiums are not yet finished but are in a ‘fairly advanced stage of construction,’ hotel VP Jeroen Gerrese said. The number of people who have committed to buy one has fluctuated between eight and 14, he said. None has sold yet.”
“Since Dec. 21 - eight days after the hotel’s opening gala - 26 companies have filed mechanic’s liens against the property, demanding a total of $8.9 million for work they claimed to have done.”
“‘They keep putting us off and keep telling us, ‘Oh, we try to have meetings with the bank. The bank is holding our money,’ said Mike Jackson of Tracy’s Artistic Terrazzo and Tile. ‘It’s just turned into this fiasco at this point.’”
“‘I’m going to go to the hotel, and I’m going to rent a room,’ he said. ‘And in the morning when I wake up, I’m going to go, ‘I’m sorry. I don’t have any money. I’ll pay you in about six months’ — because that’s what (Regent) did.’”
The Sacramento Bee. “Only a year or two ago analysts were predicting that Sacramento’s traditionally dependable job and population growth would soon trim supply and create an atmosphere to raise rents. But the housing bust has proved unexpectedly severe and led to reassessments.”
“When a foreclosure on his landlord booted Aaron Myers from a house he rented with friends, it took no time at all to find another place in Citrus Heights. His new apartment came with a quick move-in date and cost him less than $900 a month. Best of all, it wasn’t a house where the same scenario could happen again.”
“‘It seems like there’s a lot of openings,’ Myers said.”
“Because the region dramatically overbuilt during the housing boom, there are plenty of apartments – about 111,000, according to some estimates – to go around. And a curious ’shadow market’ of new dwellings for rent – units that have come on the market principally because of foreclosure and the housing downturn – has kept monthly payments flat, they say.”
“Investors are buying foreclosed homes in the suburbs and turning them into rentals. Since 2007, more than 15,000 people in the Sacramento area have lost their homes to the banks. Homeowners who can’t sell their houses or don’t want to sell at these prices are renting out their houses.”
“Charlene Vomacka, a homeowner in Roseville, has added to the supply. She’s asking $1,600 a month for her three-bedroom, two-bath house. ‘We just purchased a new home,’ she said. ‘We decided to take this one off the (for-sale) market because we aren’t going to get what we want to. I’m thinking a lot of people are losing their homes, and they need somewhere to go.’”
“Home builders who can’t interest enough buyers in their new condominium projects are renting out their units for now. In Rocklin, Pacific West Cos. has added 171 units to the rental supply. Its Montessa development at Whitney Ranch was built to sell in the low- to mid-$200,000s.”
“Now, the condos are priced as rentals at $1,000 to $1,400 a month and have attracted 80 renters in three months, said Taylor Cohee, a Pacific West sales executive.”
“Apartment industry consultant M/PF YieldStar ranked Sacramento ranked almost dead last in the critical ’shadow market’ category that makes investors wary of buying or building new apartment complexes.”
“‘What really hurts it is what is happening with the ‘for sale’ (home) sector. There is too much available product out there. That is going to lead to a lot of shadow market rentals on the single-family side,’ said M/PF research chief Greg Willett.”
The San Francsico Chronicle. “It’s clear that some sectors carry more exposure to the perils and pitfalls of the national economy. Financial services companies, already battered from the subprime mortgage fallout, are likely to undergo more woes in 2008. Retailers are already feeling the pinch as newly house-poor consumers tighten their belts.”
“The housing slump affects the local economy in ways that can’t be measured in corporate financials. As home prices plummet and foreclosures mount, many residents will undergo wrenching personal changes.”
“‘It’s obviously very hurtful to middle-class working families who were able to buy a home and are now being pushed out of the home ownership market,’ said Jim Wunderman, CEO of the Bay Area Council.”
“But the painful process is also likely to help mitigate one of the region’s biggest problems, the lack of affordable housing. Falling prices could put home ownership within reach of a wider segment of the population. ‘Housing affordability is a challenge to our economic competitiveness,’ said Stephen Levy, director of Palo Alto’s Center for the Continuing Study of the California Economy.”
“‘Lower housing prices, while painful to people, overall are helpful to the Bay Area by restoring some measure of affordability. You cannot run an economy, even in the Bay Area, with housing prices that are four times the national average. The salaries here are not four times the national average,’ Levy said.”
“‘It’s obviously very hurtful to middle-class working families who were able to buy a home and are now being pushed out of the home ownership market,’ said Jim Wunderman, CEO of the Bay Area Council.”
BS! This is great for everyone who was previously priced out of the market. The return of sanity to lending standards portends future affordable housing. What could be better for the middle class?
Big V,
He is correct! Reread what he wrote, not what you think is written. The operative phrase is “are now being pushed out of the home….” So it is hurtful to those mopes. But it will be good for the rest and for the economy overall. As Voltaire wrote ‘Tragedy plus time equals comedy”. In a few years even the foreclosed upon will be laughing at their errors.
Whats the difference between a middle class house and a prison cell?
One is a 10×10 room where you sit and ponder your poor decisions while staring blankly at the floor and decide to get religion to help you out of your bondage and the other one is for criminals.
“Whats the difference between a middle class house and a prison cell?
One is a 10×10 room where you sit and ponder your poor decisions while staring blankly at the floor and decide to get religion to help you out of your bondage and the other one is for criminals.”
Excellent comment. You made my day. I’m not such a bitter renter anymore.
“The market slide means bargains galore in areas hard hit by foreclosures, such as Hemet 92543 in Riverside County, where median prices plummeted 48%, to $130,000, during the first quarter this year, compared with the same period a year ago, according to DataQ”
This is a list of the worst declining zip areas of S Cal culled from an LA Tmes Article. These prices and percentages drops may be aggregate 1st quarter ‘07′ to 1st quarter 08 figures:
Hemet 92543 $250,000 $130,000 -48.0%
Twentynine Palms 92277 $150,000 $85,000 -43.3%
Moreno Valley 92553 $355,000 $201,500 -43.2%
Sun City 92587 $560,000 $322,500 -42.4%
Paramount 90723 $450,000 $260,000 -42.2%
Palmdale 93550 $325,000 $190,000 -41.5%
Moreno Valley 92551 $375,000 $229,500 -38.8%
Oxnard 93033 $520,000 $320,000 -38.5%
Lancaster 93534 $290,000 $180,000 -37.9%
Adelanto 92301 $283,000 $176,000 -37.8%
My comments:
ALL zips except for oxnard and paramount are in the IE or Hi desert.
Hemet used to be a laid back distant low rent retirement
community of trailer parks for retirees. It has been quite overrun with development and may i say trashed out by developers & hB’ers. It is dismal, bland & hot as hell with cheap malls & developments, as is much of the new IE urbanization. There are no decent jobs or actually nothing out there. Rather treeless and with barren rocky moonscapes, it is rather boring and isolated .
It is about 3 hrs of commute hell to get to LA and that is on a normal traffic commute without an insane traffic tieup. The monthly commute cost of gas & rapid car depreciation from commute wear & tear could now cost almost as much as the monthly mort on a $100,000 cheap reo hemet fixer.
Ditto for Lancaster, adelanto,
much of Moreno valley, outer parts of Palmdale, and Sun city. Cheap properties can be picked up in these moonscape areas for less than $100,000 but If U are a stupid specu-investor looking to buy in remote desert or IE boonie properties U will lose money over 10-15 years
29 Palms is a puny isolated ragged desert burg out there almost past Joshua tree & 4 hrs from LA.
So when is this stuff going to get to the Bay area? We were in the store tonight and never saw so many 50 year old boomers with their heads in the clouds! They were all somewhere else - either a) on SSRIs or b)thinking of their financial obligations and lost retirement money from their homes!!
You’ve described these areas to a “t”. Visited a friend of a friend in Menifee, now she had a “custom” home (i think it was two mfg homes stuck together), built on a parched hillside, and you had to skid the car down a 40 degree angle dirt easement to get to the main road. Terrifying. And she does this everyday. yikes.
I used to drive through part of hemet from Idyllwild in the mountains to Riverside commuting. I couldn’t believe all the building going on and it wasn’t retirement type homes. I couldn’t imagine people choosing to live out there. Then again, it’s only about 40 mins into Riverside and some parts of hemet/san jacinto are still pretty rural and hilly. You could get quite a house compared to what the prices were in Riverside. But the air was god awful. When I would come down the mountain it would be like descending through brown clouds. Right up against the mountains where all the smog drifts from smellay.
Does that thing have a Hemet in it?
Q:
Which of these is not like the others?
Herpes
Syphilis
AIDS
a San Diego condo
A: Syphilis.
It’s the only one you can get rid of.
lol…and all usually gained in moments of stupidity…followed by regret…
Talk to a Realtor–they’re foreclosure counselors now:
http://mortgage.freedomblogging.com/2008/04/21/realtors-volunteer-as-foreclosure-counselors/
I can just see some poor chump going to the “foreclosure counselor” and saying “Hey, aren’t you the guy who told me not to worry because I could always re-finance to a fixed term mortgage”.
“The housing slump affects the local economy in ways that can’t be measured in corporate financials. As home prices plummet and foreclosures mount, many residents will undergo wrenching personal changes.”
“wrenching personal changes” = i.e., living within one’s means. The Horror…
From yesterday’s LATimes:
Arson to avoid foreclosure?
“Some folks celebrate their last home mortgage payment by setting fire to their loan agreement. Lately, some people behind on their mortgages are simply setting fire to their homes.”
Should be lots of jobs for firemen and arson investigators.
The poor fellow has to cook his own dinner and he may cancel his trip to Thailand! It’s an outrage! Contact your Congressperson and demand that the government bail him out immediately!
What middle class.
Mike
I have an off-topic question (sort of off topic): Does anyone think that when a lot fewer people are spending 35-40% of their income on their mortgage it will in any way offset the loss of people with HELOC money to spend as far as the overall economy is concerned?
FWIW, I think the consumer is running on empty. The monies saved less than 35-40% on mortgage will just get eaten up by inflation. Also, I don’t think anything can replace the billions that MEW provided. Finally, they’ll be much likely to spend any “cash” they have , as opposed to using credit cards/home equity.
1) Make the payments and stop spending on everything else = economy is doomed since we are 70% consumer driven economy.
2) Stop making the payments on the loans so you can keep spending on everything else = doomed since the financial sector will collapse and take down most of the remaming jobs with it.
In the end, our economy is little more than
1) Buy from Chindia,
2) borrow the money back,
3) repeat.
If (not that) this cycle is broken, there will be blood.
Should be (now that) not (not that).
I’ll drink your milshake, Darrell!
I think it will eventually, but not at first.
The thing is, the HELOC people will still have to pay because HELOCs are recourse. So they won’t have the luxury of simply turning in the keys and renting. They will be foreclosed on, but will now have to pay both their rent AND whatever they borrowed. So that means that HELOCers and re-fiers are not really being replaced by non-FB owners. It’s just that they will trade houses with them.
Purchase money Helocs are non-recourse and depending on the language in the Note, any Heloc can be non-recourse.
Are you kidding? ARGH! I thought they were recourse. Well, that just ruined my dinner. Shoot.
“Jerry Nickelsburg, a senior economist at the UCLA Anderson Forecast, said the problem for local government is that the sectors it relies most on for revenue have been the hardest hit.”
“‘The areas the government relies on - real estate, sales tax and construction - are sectors that are not doing so well,’ Nickelsburg said. ‘We think the home-building sector will reach the bottom sometime this year so that it might come back beginning in 2009. But we don’t expect it to be like the volume of the past few years when government was able to generate a lot of revenue during a speculative boom.’”
Here’s a question: How much do you think Jerry gets paid per year to make brillaint observations like this?
How about $200K per year?
The real question is has Jerry been paid as a consultant to any local governments offering them any advice on revenues based on his bad forecasts in the past.
“The average reductions have been $66,000, saving the average homeowner $660 a year in taxes - but also reducing revenue to local government.”
And pray tell us, what did the government do with the excess money from the last few years?
Local governments drank from the same trough the REIC did.
Guess what, I want to see some of these morons for once state that bureaucrats (not teachers, firefighters, etc.) will have to be let go. Or the excess benefits they voted themselves have to be trimmed.
They sure as hell didn’t use the money to maintain our bridges.
Caltrans has been spending a lot of $$ on the 405 freeway in this area. Highway maintenance in California has been pretty good for the last ten years or so. The cities are another story, however. It’s fun to notice how much the pavement quality varies as you drive from town to town around here. LA City streets are pretty bad, but the surrounding communities are generally better. Ever since the state started raiding the gasoline tax kitty for mass transit projects, the city street maintenance has suffered.
There are plenty of bureaucrats to cut. LA County is now running a separate building inspection dept and a separate health department that are fiddling around in the incorporated areas, thus duplicating the city departments. Santa Monica has “solar engineers” measuring all of the buildings in town. Layers on layers of extra bodies.
In the mean time, 20,000 school teachers have received pink slips.
“The cities are another story, however. It’s fun to notice how much the pavement quality varies as you drive from town to town around here.”
Same thing in San Diego. The freeways are decent, but the San Diego city streets are atrocious - as bad as anything you’d experience in cities that have freeze/thaw issues.
I used to laugh when I lived in SD because my parents lived in scripps ranch, same as the city manager…streets got repaved every few years regardless of condition. I lived in OB where the streets never even got patched. Almost needed 4wd by the time I left that place.
Did you miss the bridge improvement blowout? That was one of the big accomplishments of the Gray Davis administration that no one gives him credit for. After Northridge people were spooked about possible problems with bridges and quakes, especially with respect to the second earthquake triggered catastrophic collapse of the 14 in SoCal. The result was a huge program to update bridges all over the state. Overpasses all over got completely redone and the Bay Bridge rebuild started at that time. If money is not going to bridges, then that is probably because they recently got rebuilt or simply don’t have enough traffic to be concerned about.
It went to the leaky Big Dig.
Yes, yes and more yes. Huzaaaah.
test
Yes, Yes, and more Yes. Huzaaaaah.
“I’m thinking a lot of people are losing their homes, and they need somewhere to go.’”
And they’ll be happy to trash your house that you refuse to sell at your wishing price dreamer.
Mo, you took the words right outta my mouth. I can’t get over how easy these people think rental property management is.
Boy, are they cruising for a bruising. With a Joshua Tree.
“The salaries here are not four times the national average,’ Levy said.”
I was saying this all along to the brain dead housing bulls in Silly Valley, but was told all the rich people would keep buying houses as investments and keep the market propped up.
I brought my violin on a trip to Shallow Alto on Sunday. Maybe it’s just me, but the mood seemed kinda glum. It was a nice day. Still plent o’ snobbery, fo shizzle, but more toned down.
Big V, are you playing violin in Palo Alto for extra cash?
NO! People would arrest me if I tried to play in public. I went in to get a new set of strings, and the guy sweet-talked me into “fixing” the instrument. Whatever. He ground some rosin into the pegs, wiped the fingerboard down with alcohol, and slid the bridge over by 1/4″. I guess it all needed to be done, but he totally hard sold it. I guess luthiers are starting to get desparate.
I keep saying these people just don’t make the $$ to afford these Bay area homes and my husband and I make quite a bit more than the average bear and we feel poor!!
Same here!
My wife is constantly depressed because we cant afford a house, and other reasons.
I said screw it and leased a new Mercedes for her just to give her a little something to show for all our work.
She needed a new car anyway. What the hell.
I wonder where SiO2 went. I hope we didn’t get too mean on him. FWIW, people are mean to me too, SiO2, but I still post anyway!
he’s an oxide, maybe he met some Hydrofluouric Acid that didn’t agree with him.
or maybe his doping impurities were too high…
Or maybe he reacted to us the way oxygen and phosphorus do.
I would be afraid to be mean to you, I think you bite and maybe you even have rabies. You certainly have a wickedly funny pen.
You should come to Big V’s next HBB get-together and meet her in person. I guarantee you’ll be surprised!
“Elizabeth Powell, 28, learned how tough the market is. She first listed her four-bedroom West Covina house for sale for $600,000 in February 2007.”
See I don’t get this! It’s got walls, Some windows, a tile or two, some grass with a tree or shrub, a garage for your car even. A place to poop in private and a door to shut on salesmen. $600k sounds about right doesn’t it?
““‘I’m very glad it’s over with,’ Powell said of the selling experience she described as frustrating and stressful. ‘The loan terms kept changing; neighbors started selling their homes for less. I can’t imagine having to sell another property.’”
This, in a nutshell, is an example of why it may take a generation or more for sales to recover. There are going to be some people that were so burned by the process that they will never buy again even if they could.
The process of buying and selling houses needs to fundamentally change and never return to most of the practices of the bubble era.
It’s just not enough for prices to fall to sustainable levels.
“1,364-square-foot 1922 California bungalow, reduced to $605,000 from $645,000″………
AAAAAGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! THAT’S SO INSANE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Agreed. Those little bungalows are lucky to still be standing. And the lots are so small that they probably aren’t worth scraping for new construction.
Did you see this link on the bungalow story? It the hottest and Coldest ZIP codes in the SoCal area. You can really see the medians shifting around. What’s funny is the ZIPs that are not listed - at least 20 homes had to sell in the ZIP to make the list. A lot of the zips that might have made the “gains” list are so frozen up that almost nothing is selling.
Blano, there are houses in my Hancock Park LA neighborhood that are only 1,100sf 2/1s still “priced” as high as $1.1 million on Zillow and other sites. Note: NOT the giant mansions south of Beverly, just 1-story SFRs with some yard, side driveways, garages in back. Lots are decent sized.
However, even thru the bubble, not much turnover in the area, most of the owners have lived there for a long time and they hung on to the homes. Only one house currently for sale in this area, and it’s been up for sale for at least a year. Everyone else is sitting tight. Hopefully they’re not max-HELOC’d…
Wish I’d been able to afford to buy when I moved here in 1998; these homes were all in the $300K range.
Perhaps they will be again, soon!
And can you imagine how cheap those beautiful old big houses so of Beverly were back around the last housing crash in CA? One of my favorites is the one they used for Father of the Bride.
If prices return to 1998 levels someday, will dollars be at 1998 levels as well?
“‘It’s not over,’ Hahn said. ‘It’s not going to be over until 2012.’”
Oh… its over. The Sheeple just don’t know it yet.
Or should I say the feature is about to start. Hey look… Its the “Anvil Chorus!” Look at that Wascally FB dodge!
Got Popcorn?
Neil
“I’d definitely pose nude again. No qualms. I actually had my breasts done again. Just updated, like new tires.”
Jessica Hahn
“The end of low introductory teaser rates on mortgages are spurring foreclosures now and will do so again in 2010 and 2011, when studies show many loans will see a jump in payments, he said.”
I dunno about this. I think there will be quite a few defaults moved forward a couple years. For example, a option ARM that resets in 2011. But the LTV increases above 105% because of the general price decline by 2009 or 2010, so the loan gets called in. That moves the foreclosure up by a couple years, but decreases foreclosures in 2011.
100% agree.
We’ve talked about this a bit here on the HBB. We’re in the crunch time. But it isn’t until those foreclosed homes are back on the market that we’ll see the largest price drops.
So it will take a while for prices to decline.
Got Popcorn?
Neil
My understanding is that the LTV caps on Option ARMs are based upon the value at the time the loan was originated, and lenders do not have the ability to “re-value” the home for purposes of these caps.
But looking at the numbers from Downey S&L out today, I’d say that they are already having a hard time with their Option ARMs. Non-performing assets are almost 12% (and they were less than 1% last year). Ouch! That is a meteoric rise in NPAs.
It’s not the house value, it’s based on the original loan value at the time of the refi/purchase. Most caps were 115 to 125% during the bubble… some cushion, but even more crushing when the time comes to fully amortize.
Right now, most of them are amortizing at -5% to -7% per year. However, with an OA and a HELOC, many people bought with 0 down and are already hundreds of thousands of dollars underwater. There is no survival for them now. Even the most prudent would walk away after several hundred thousand dollars for a trashed credit.
reduced to $605,000 from $645,000
In Eagle Rock, no less. Or should I say, no more. This house would have commanded $150k tops in 1997. Therefore to calculate its real value today, we multiply $150k by (1.03)^11 to obtain $208k, then we multiply by 80% to reflect the “overshoot on the way down,” yielding $166k. That is the target price at the market bottom, in 2008 dollars.
That anyone would pay $605k for a house in Eagle Rock, especially now that the writing is on the wall for the housing bust, indicates that there are still plenty of FB’s in the making, even today.
I think you just got the appreciation over 11 years in your equation. If you add the initial price to the appreciation, you get 150 + 208 = 358. Multiply that by 0.8, and you get $286k.
you’re wrong. You don’t add original price to his equation.
nevertheless, 1.03 seems a bit low for average inflation.
I use 4% in my analysis and I think on average this is better than the crap data our government feeds us.
I’m cool with that. If we assume 4% annual appreciation/inflation, a house worth $150k in 1997 is worth $231k today. Multiplying by 80% to accommodate the overshoot gives us $185k as a target price.
Hell, even omitting the 80% factor (which is reasonable for those who think this crash won’t make a bigger “dent” than the last one) assigns a generous value of $231k.
Under this conservative assumption, the FB who paid $605k is looking at a 62% loss in real terms if he/she holds all the way to the bottom. In my opinion that’s a best-case scenario, too. Clearly the kool-aid is still strongly spiked in SoCal.
The 1.03 allows for 3% annual appreciation. Your way implies 8.2% annual appreciation: (1.082)^11 = 2.38 = 358/150, which is actually quite bubbly.
Of course, the FB gave the seller 13.5% annual appreciation: (1.135)^11 = 4.02 = 605/150: quadruple the price in 11 years! That’s so silly stupid that it makes my head spin.
P.S. In case anyone thinks I’m being capricious with that $150k figure, just check Redfin, search for 3-bedroom houses in Eagle Rock, and look for one with a sale date in 1996 or 1997. For example, after a few moments’ digging, I found this listing:
http://www.redfin.com/stingray/do/printable-listing?listing-id=1399780
Here’s the sale history:
December 1995, $169k
July 1996, $148k
August 2003, $330k
January 2004, $462k
June 2006, $720k (ouchie!)
Current FB is asking $659k, reduced twice since January ($749k) and February ($689k).
Just in the past few weeks, I’ve seen a LOT of Redfin listings, both in SoCal and in Silicon Valley (e.g., Santa Clara, Sunnyvale, San Jose) where the seller’s current asking price is at a big discount from what he paid - 20% or more in many cases. And they’re not selling. Based on this, I’m expecting to see a BIG step downward in the median prices in both regions over the next six months.
You’re right. I didn’t notice at first, but you got the principal in there the way you calculated it with 1.03.
my grandparents lived in Eagle Rock, a cute little 2/1 with a little garage down at the bottom of a steep hill we used to ride our scooters down……….very hot in the summer
Another sign of strength in Cali real estate:
Downey S&L EPS loss of $8.89 per share on CA mortgage related losses.
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/080421/lam109.html?.v=89
oops, should add they stopped paying dividend.
NON-PERFORMING ASSETS
Non-performing assets increased during the quarter by $521 million to $1.562 billion and represented 11.90% of total assets, compared with 7.77% at year-end 2007 and 0.94% a year ago.
By the holy Joshua Tree. That’s an implosion. They’re down to $88 million in cash. That’s almost a 50% drop in 12 months. Without cash, they’re not a bank.
This sub-thread should be discussing whom the fed will assign to take them over. They’re done. Stick a fork in them.
Got Popcorn?
Neil
Totally agree, they are done. Kind of sad for me from a sentimental point of view, as I had my first bank account with them (back when I was little and had a paper route). Time for them to reap what they sowed, though.
I’ve always wanted an office with a big, built-in vault. Looks like there will be quite a few available soon.
Downey is on the verge of entering the land of no return. Non-performing loans of 12% of assets, 60% of portfolio in ARMs, and 24% of interest income represents capitalized IOUs on option ARMs. For every dollar in financial liabilities they only have 95 cents in performing assets. As a result quarterly earnings, ignoring loan losses and and non-recurring items, was only $3 million (and that includes all of the capitalized interest on the option ARMs).
I don’t see any big bank taking over Downey without major FDIC assistance, such as a guarantee of the option ARMs. Plus, the balance sheet is so sick that no private equity firm would purchase newly issued stock.
That little tidbit took FirstFed down 10% today too. FED is all ARMs, all the time, and they’ll probably get theirs right after DSL does. I have accounts at both Wachovia and FirstFed, but under the FDIC limit. Maybe I should consider stuffing a mattress.
And now the legs are getting cut out from under them.
Wells Fargo is rock solid. Best of the best…er…worst?
Wells Fargo holds their notes and does such prudent things as actually assess your home before you buy it, require you to be financially solvent. Then they let their subsidiaries take on the bad loans. Some company they own, sunshine or something , wrote all their toxic paper. Wells Fargo proper is as clean as a whistle
Wells Fargo Clean????????????????
yea right…….
http://www.pasreo.com/pasreo/public/propertySearch.do
$640,000 in Eagle rock,650k in the east san fernando valley,north hollywood, burbank…..the sellers have yet to blink,and it seems there a re plenty of knife catchers around….Unfortunately this part of Los Angeles Calif has held up very well and seen very little price drop….
The economy is still fairly healthy in the areas that you mention. TV and Movies are still good unless the actors go on strike this summer. But I have heard some anecdotal stories about prices falling a bit in Burbank.
If a few more banks seize up, we’ll see prices there falling noticeably by this fall, as the people that need to move actually do so. I’m hoping to see the same thing on the West Side, where sales have mostly stopped but prices haven’t gone down much.
Hell yes prices have fallen! Look in the SFV in the Lake Balboa area. So many reos—prices have been falling like rocks! I go on ziprealty and type in prices btw $160-$450k and there are plenty of houses fallen over 30% from the peak.
I would have to agree with you, living in the Glendale/Burbank area. No decent price drops and sellers have the mentality that if prices go down too much, they will simply hold off on selling. I put real lowball offers on a couple of homes in Glendale Hills, but unfortunatly, not only did the sellers not respond, but their homes actually sold within a week of my offers. Here is my take on this area, there were a lot of people, with money, waiting on the sidelines, and they are pulling the triggers too fast. Anyone else living in this area have the same feeling?
HEAR HERE!
Nah. I think the pricier areas just have to wait until the prime ARMS explode in 2010. Until then, it will be a very slow decline.
It’s funny to see Burbank and Glendale passing as “pricier” areas these days - in the 1990s, they were just your average mediocre LA burg and priced accordingly.
A perfectly representative example, chosen randomly from Redfin. A mediocre 3-bedroom house in Glendale, 2000 square feet, built in 1928, your average LA stucco box.
Previous sales:
May 1995, $218.5k
April 1998, $220k
June 2005, $743k
Current FB originally sought $849k in January, dropped it to $798k in February, and since that didn’t work, oh hell, he figured he would raise it to $818k. Just another aspiring quadrupler-in-a-decade.
There’s certainly no reason why the house won’t drop back to $220k, plus inflation adjustment, minus overshoot adjustment. If Glendale’s median household income has increased by more than 20% in the past ten years, I’ll eat my head. (Equity loans don’t count as income.)
Nothing like the delusion, though, that I see in places like Koreatown. Example: a 4,332 square foot 8-bedroom house, built in 1917, at 457 S. Serrano Ave. A pretty tough hood, even today.
Sale history:
November 1994, $290k
August 1995, $180k
September 1997, $320k
March 2006, $1.3M
And, as just reward for occupying the place for two years, the current FB started the bidding at $2.58M in February 2008, dropping since then to $2.19M and now $1.99M. This is in Koreatown. Unfreakingbelievable. I lived in Koreatown in 1995, when you could barely give a house away.
Pardon my ignorance, though what is a “FB?”
Thanks.
FB–farked borrower.
Foolish or F$%#@ Borrower generally a candidate for a Joshua Tree. Or I think we have shortened it to JT. Before the JT treatment they can also be beaten with a 20 lb trout. Don’t ask
I am in glendale and must DISAGREE BIG TIME:
A house 2.5 years ago listed at $959,000 sold for $1,0705,000.00.
1.5 years later, the very same house sold for $1,500,000.00.
Today, that house has a first lien of $1,000,000.00. and a second lien of $300,000.00.
The total amount owed is about $1,400,000 due to about 9 months of non-payments, property taxes paid by the bank and other costs and fees.
I made an offer on it for $975,000 2.5 years ago and at that time, it needed a new roof ($20,000 per the estimate the roofer I sent out gave me.)
This house is on the market for $1,050,000.00.
Yes, $1,050,000 (the banks are taking a bath).
I went to Countrywide to get prequalifed 3 weeks ago.
They prequalified me at $1,050,000.00, however, the house only appraised for $979,000.00 on their computer appraiser.
I told the broker I would offer $850,000 (the roof was “fixed”, however it still leaks) this house is over 3300 sq. ft. and a pool, and somewhat of a view.
The broker said the banks will not allow, and it will the foreclosure date is next month (delayed at least 4 times already.)
Even if I do not buy it, and it sells at $1,050,000.00, it will kill all the values in the area, including Burbank.
(I am a broker and I know the history of this house. I got outbid 2 years ago and have kept an eye on it as I knew the buyers were fools. I was right.)
For those of you calling me a fool for trying to buy it at $1,050,000, I could afford it and plant to live in it for the rest of my life.
By the way, Americana at Brand, Starting at low $700,000 to $2,000,000.
Why don’t you just wait a few years and buy it for $300k or so?
think it is CONDO not house, right? so don’t forget the association dues.
Personally i am of the caucasian persuasion, but even so all i want is tight shoes and a warm place to s**t.
RIP Earl Butz
Personally i am of the caucasian persuasion, but even so all i want is tight shoes and a warm place to s**t.
RIP Earl Butz
I believe that was “loose shoes”. The desired tightness was in something that we can’t say on a family-friendly web site.
I thank you sir and stand corrected. I always thought that made no sense. Now it is perfect.
There have always been knife catchers, there will always be. Such is the way of the world, young grasshopper.
There’s something wrong with Zillow. The house around the corner from my ex-rental house recently sold. It sold for $650k, which brought its Zestimate down to $643 from $740. However, the ex-rental itself (which is still for sale), has experienced no change in Zestimate as a result of this recent sale. How can that be? A new comp has been set, so the Zestimate should change, no?
Once a realtor marks a house as for sale, the Zestimate pretty much locks on to the for sale price… At least that is my experience.
Maybe they don’t want to get sued.
“Step outside the inland valleys, however, and some sellers still are stuck in the fantasy world of 2005, insisting on prices that buyers won’t entertain for a minute…”
————————————————————————–
Now is my (our) time to shine.
- BuyerWillEPB
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“Jerry Nickelsburg, a senior economist at the UCLA Anderson Forecast, said the problem for local government is that the sectors it relies most on for revenue have been the hardest hit.”
Yeah, Prof. Nickelsburg, since you guys at Anderson Business Forecast are not forecasting a recession (that has been here for some 9 months based on employment data) other areas must be doing very well to counter the “hardest hit” areas in economy, right?
Jas
I think I just figured out what’s going on with this house that’s catty-corner to mine. It was last sold in October of 2006 for $813k, and has been for sale on Zillow for months. Recently, a large Hispanic family has been hanging around the place, but doesn’t seem to be living in it. Well, a sale just showed up on Zillow for the house. The sale happened in February 2008 for $710k. (Nice haircut, but for some reason Zillow says they didn’t factor that particular sale into the Zestimate. They say it’s an anomoly; no wonder why Zestimates are all too high.) However, the house is still listed as “For Sale” on Zillow. I think the people are trying to flip it, especially because they’re doing their best to completely eliminate the back yard by building on to the house, but they still haven’t mowed the lawn.
Can there possibly still be flippers out there?
I met one yesterday. She and her husband bought a foreclosure in Sacramento for $200K and are spending $30K to fix it up. I’ll let you know if she succeeds in selling it.
I’ve seen Zillow take several months to show recent sales. There is a house near me that sold back in February next to another that was taken off the market at that time. Both appear to be for sale on Zillow. The maximum time for updating seems to be around three months, so maybe things get refreshed quarterly?
–
“Falling prices could put home ownership within reach of a wider segment of the population.”
In that case shouldn’t our govt encourage fall in home prices? Looks like they are trying to do the opposite — “arrest the price decline” by policy measures.
Jas
“Within reach” is lingo for your income might be able to afford this house, but you need a 20% down payment and a perfect FICO. Fewer people will be able to qualify for loans, so the G is of the opinion that it is wiser(?) to keep the mopes in their houses.
The gov’s policies may create an unintended backlash. The homeowners that are making their payments, renters that did not get swept up in the euphoria and the owners free and clear should be asking where their assistance is.
Some measure of affordability in housing; some rationing of food to put in the houses:
http://tinyurl.com/4oyfg4
“Adding to pressure on all local government was the decision by county Assessor Rick Auerbach to launch a reassessment of properties as the housing market has plummeted…”
If it is the same Rick Auerbach that played for the Brewers, he should know how to deal with plummeting averages. He was from California, not the worst short stop, but his batting average plummeted every August.
You know, I was wondering the same thing - whether he’d played for them. Hmmm.
got rice????
I know some of us have been jeered a bit about being over the top on our future, but this is just the first sign of a new era… sorry if this has been posted already!
http://nysun.com/news/food-rationing-confronts-breadbasket-world
I smell a new weekend thread…
meanwhile I’m making a beeline to Costco, time to use a few of these worth-less greenbacks!
We made our “Costco run” about 6 weeks ago. People were looking at us mighty strange as we loaded 2 carts with canned goods. I’ll bet the stuff has gone up 30% since then.
Don’t panic. But if you must, be sure you panic first.
Ok, so how does Trulia derive a y-o-y Average Price/Sq ft of +6.7% for all homes sold in SF from entirely *negative* readings, -7.9% (1 BR), -2.9% (2BR), -5.7% (3 BR), and -8.8% (4 BR)?!! Most be all those unaccounted for SF mansions!
The market slide means bargains galore in areas hard hit by foreclosures, such as Hemet 92543 in Riverside County, where median prices plummeted 48%, to $130,000
you don’t say. the prices are headed back down to where they should be. another 50% and maybe they are in the ballpark of where they were when I first moved to CA in 1989.
“Lower housing prices, while painful to people, overall are helpful to the Bay Area by restoring some measure of affordability. You cannot run an economy, even in the Bay Area, with housing prices that are four times the national average. The salaries here are not four times the national average,” Levy said.
How about telling that to these guys?
Two bedroom units for FOUR HUNDRED FIFTY THOUSAND dollars.
And the idiot builders consider that to be in the range of low income buyers? Please.
“He’s applied to teach summer school. Plans for a December trip to Thailand, Pandara’s home, aren’t so certain.”
Come on. Everyone else opened “Pandara’s Box” and paid for that Thai vacation with a HELOC just in time for the tsunami.