May 7, 2008

Everything’s On Clearance Now

The Columbus Dispatch reports from Ohio. “With so many would-be buyers waiting, M/I Homes wrapped up an anxious year during which it sold a large portion of its land holdings and worked hard at cutting expenses. M/I Homes’ CEO Robert H. Schottenstein attributes some of his company’s problems selling homes to consumers’ unrealistic expectations. He believes buyers expect to realize the full value of what they think their homes are worth before selling and moving up.”

“‘One of the things that happened nationally during the bull run is that people began to expect their home prices to appreciate at rates you would expect to get with an investment,’ he said. ‘So they bought a house to live in, but they wanted it and expected it to be one of their best investments. Over the long haul it likely will be, but if you buy a house as an investment rather than as a place to live, then I think you’re getting confused.’”

The Toledo Blade from Ohio. “The Starboard Side development was once envisioned as the proof Toledo needed to show the suburbs there was still money to be made building housing within the city limits.”

“Proposed in the mid-1990s by three community groups, the $6.5 million project called for two-dozen upscale riverfront condominiums and 20 suburban-style houses. But today only a fraction of what was planned - seven condo units that sold for $250,000 to $330,000 - has been built.”

“The remaining lots sit undeveloped because of what the developer last week described as a chronic and straightforward problem: Toledo’s housing market. In a twist from original plans, finishing Starboard Side could now depends on government subsidies.”

“‘Ten years ago, we thought that marketing riverfront property, or property near the river, would be an easy task,’ said William Farnsel, executive director of Neighborhood Housing Services of Toledo Inc., which has taken the lead in managing the property.”

“Now, however, ‘with the way the real-estate market is locally and the collapse of values, there is no way you could fund a development with everything you need and be able to cover your cost. Starboard Side is out of money,’ he said.”

“Neighborhood Housing Services recently applied for federal tax credits in hopes of luring investors for a proposed 40-unit, three-story apartment complex for lower and moderate-income seniors age 62 and over. ‘Why are we switching tactics,’ Mr. Farnsel said. ‘Right now there is no market for single-family housing.’”

“Several condo dwellers have become angry that their side yards still bear the look of construction sites. ‘A lot of people won’t invite guests over because they’re embarrassed,’ said Fred Fogelman, who lives in a two-story unit. Neighborhood Housing Services talks ‘about building those across the street, but they haven’t finished these.’”

The Detroit Free Press from Michigan. “Much has changed since 2005, when the local market was at its peak. Places like Novi, Birmingham, Royal Oak, Ann Arbor and Sterling Heights, for instance, are more affordable now as home prices reach pre-2000 levels.”

“‘Buyers are out there in this market, but they are looking for a deal,’ said Paul Mychalowych, an agent in Farmington Hills. ‘In the range of $200,000 to $400,000, you can buy in downtown Birmingham now. A few years ago, you couldn’t touch it for under $500,000.’”

“Home prices have dropped 23.2% since peaking in December 2005, according to the S&P/Case-Shiller Home Price Indices. And Michigan home sales fell 26.5%, from the peak of 137,558 homes sold in 2004 to 101,094 in 2007, according to the Michigan Association of Realtors.”

“‘Everything’s on clearance now,’ said Amanda Callahan, an agent in Plymouth. ‘People are putting in $30,000 kitchens just to sell their houses and they don’t get that investment back.’”

“John Babcock, president of Babcock Homes in Commerce Township, said speculative houses that builders constructed when the market was at its peak are not being replaced when they sell.”

“‘We haven’t put a new spec in the ground for a year and a half. I don’t know of any builders who are building specs because there isn’t any money in that now,’ Babcock said. ‘While the existing home market is still flooded with homes and foreclosures, the new home market seems to be drying up.’”

The Daily Tribune from Michigan. “The number of homes foreclosed in Oakland County hit an all-time high in April, an indication that downward pressure on home values and local government revenues is likely to continue.”

“There were 968 foreclosures recorded in April, the highest one-month total ever and an 83 percent increase over the 529 foreclosures for the same month a year ago.”

“While perhaps it’s a good time for prospective homebuyers to jump into the housing market, the relatively low prices of foreclosures makes it difficult for sellers to unload their homes. ‘It’s really hurting the realistic and honest sellers,’ said Pat Jacobs of the North Oakland County Board of Realtors.”

“‘As values go down, the revenue stream starts to dry up,’ said Oakland County Executive L. Brooks Patterson. ‘I’d like to think we’re pretty much bottoming out. I don’t see any immediate relief in sight, but I don’t think this can go on.’”

“‘It’s bad for us, but it’s a national phenomenon,’ Patterson said. ‘California is losing 520 homes a day.’”

Chicago Business from Illinois. “The share of vacant houses and condominiums for sale in the Chicago area has moved higher the past two years, another sign of the slumping residential market.”

“The high rate chiefly reflects the rising number of foreclosures in the Chicago area. In Cook County, the number of homes in foreclosure nearly doubled from 2004 to 2007, to 26,450, according to a Chicago-based homeowner advocacy group.”

“The higher rate also suggests that new unsold condos and homes are piling up, especially downtown, where developers will complete a record 5,900 condos this year. Many people who bought new condos as investments are having a hard time flipping them, so the units are sitting empty.”

“The housing slump is also likely to drive down the share of local housing units occupied by owners rather than renters. Mirroring the national trend, the Chicago-area homeownership rate jumped during the residential boom, as low mortgage rates and easy credit drew more people into the for-sale residential market.”

“‘The boom took people out of rental and put them into houses,’ says Steven Hovany, president of Schaumburg-based Strategy Planning Associates Inc. ‘And the bust is going to reverse that.’”

The Chicago Tribune from Illinois. “It is no secret that downtown Chicago commercial real estate is weaker today than it was a year or two ago. But the situation in the suburbs is worse, according to recent surveys.”

“MB Real Estate, a diversified real estate firm, said its analysis shows that the overall vacancy rate for downtown increased from about 11.7 percent in the final three months of 2007 to 12.3 percent in the first quarter of 2008.”

“In the suburbs, MB Real Estate found, the vacancy rate rose from 16.1 percent in the last quarter of 2007 to 17.3 percent in the first quarter of this year. ‘The suburbs got hit by the mortgage crisis,’ observed Andrew Davidson, executive vice president with MB Real Estate.”

“His company noted that many mortgage companies and other residential related businesses such as title companies that opened during the housing boom have cut back or have been shuttered.”

“‘The closing of mortgage lending companies will continue to be an obstacle to market recovery,’ the report said. ‘In addition, landlords have not been able to attract tenants from the Chicago central business district as they may have hoped. It is clear that the current weakening in the economy is affecting the suburban Chicago market.’”

The Pioneer Press from Minnesota. “It may seem as though the Twin Cities housing market is drowning in bank-mediated listings like foreclosures and short sales, though in fact it is not. A new real estate report says only 20 percent of homes on the market are bank-mediated. The rest are just regular listings competing in an overloaded for-sale market.”

“Of the 32,368 homes currently on the market in the 13-county metro area, 6,548 either are foreclosures or short sales, according to a report the Minneapolis Area Association of Realtors issued.”

“‘We concluded that when you compare the two — the traditional against the lender-mediated — there are two different market places and two different median sale prices,’ Kevin Knudsen, president of MAAR, said in an interview.”

The Star Tribune from Minnesota. “When those distressed properties are factored out, the Realtors say, the Twin Cities median price fell 3.9 percent in the past year, instead of an overall 10.4 percent decline.”

“The study is a useful tool in understanding the impact of the foreclosure crisis on home prices, said Chip Halbach, executive director of the Minnesota Housing Partnership in St. Paul.”

“‘It tells a story which they’re not otherwise able to tell,’ he said. ‘It’s not scientific, but it does as good as job as we can hope.’”

The Argus Leader from South Dakota. “Sioux Falls had 1,547 building permits from January through April with a total value of $121 million. Both numbers are off 10 percent from a year earlier. Permits for new single-family housing are off 44 percent, with total housing units down 37 percent.”

“The figures point to a softer year ahead for a city accustomed to annual blockbuster gains as a sign of a bulging economy. ‘Are we down a little bit? Yes, but the whole United States is in a downward spiral,’ said Randy Bruner of Bruner Construction in Sioux Falls.”

“‘The office of the comptroller of the currency is changing requirements for lenders. It’s a whole different standard than 12 months ago,’ said Don Dunham Jr., owner of The Dunham Co. ‘With the national economy in the tank, I think that makes everybody cautious.’”

“Dunham knows of many new housing starts valued at a quarter-million dollars or more about to break ground. That’s a bright prospect, but there’s still caution in the air, he said.”

“‘The people still are coming into the economy, but instead of choosing to buy like they would two or three years ago, they’re choosing to rent, so they don’t need a down payment,’ Dunham said. ‘I don’t think job stability is the big issue. I think it’s scraping up the down payment.’”




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77 Comments »

Comment by exeter
2008-05-07 06:45:28

“Proposed in the mid-1990s by three community groups, the $6.5 million project called for two-dozen upscale riverfront condominiums and 20 suburban-style houses. But today only a fraction of what was planned - seven condo units that sold for $250,000 to $330,000 - has been built.”

So much for moving on up to a DEE lux apartment in the sky.

Comment by oxide
2008-05-07 07:45:46

Silly wabbit! Condos are for WEAL cities!

(by real cities, I mean NY, SF, DC, LA, Miami, Chi-town, Boston, possily Seattle or Dallas/Houston/Philly. If anyone loves urban life so much as to buy an apartment, then they wouldn’t be in Toledo to begin with.)

Comment by Ben Jones
2008-05-07 08:13:42

’seven condo units that sold for $250,000 to $330,000′

Given that this is Toledo Ohio, aren’t these prices a little bubbly?

Comment by SLOBear
2008-05-07 09:51:47

I went to Toledo once - once.

Those better be 3500 sqft condos.

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Comment by Blano
2008-05-07 10:55:32

I wouldn’t pay that in Toledo for a McMansion.

 
 
Comment by oxide
2008-05-07 09:54:35

Yes, they are. They would be bubbly even for DC.

I don’t agree that there was a nationwide bubble. But in the flyover states, the airiest of the prices are reserved for new construction like cookie cutter SFH, and new stupid construction like townhomes, “patio homes” and condos of any stripe.

But the wish price for a decently updated 1960’s 3/1.5 ranch on 1/4 acre is $105K. How bubbled is that? 15-20%? I don’t really know, but it’s a lot less helium than Sarasota.

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Comment by oxide
2008-05-07 09:57:06

I’m so sorry… I mean I DON’T DISAGREE with you, Ben. As in, I agree. my bad.

 
 
Comment by sfbayqt
2008-05-07 10:03:00

I thought the SAME thing when I read that. There is no way that this is affordable for the folks in Toledo. If Wiki is current….

median income for households: $32,546
median income for family: $41,175
For men: $35,407
For women: $25,023

Buying a flat screen TV would be a challenge here if you add in regular household expenses, plus cell phones , etc. It’s just crazy how the builders would even plan to set such prices, and that the city would approve it. Just crazy. And then they are dismayed that things aren’t going well??

Ok, so they probably thought they were right on time with the boom and all, and KNEW they would make a killin’. But doesn’t ANYONE look ahead? In my personal life, I go through “what-if” scenarios, and always have a plan B. These guys did neither…especially not for the Starboard Side residents. And starting another project without, at least, putting some finishing touches on the S.S. ….that’s ludicrous.

BayQT~

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Comment by exeter
2008-05-07 09:44:34

“Condos are for WEAL cities!”

ZACKLY! Upscale+toledo+condo doesn’t come close to the cosmo/metro swagger of NYC and Beantown. Hell… you can slash DC off your list for that matter.

 
 
Comment by Dave of the North
2008-05-07 08:17:24

It’s amazing how much time and money is wasted when “community groups” get involved in these projects - 10 years and 7 units to show for it.

Comment by aimeejd
2008-05-07 08:29:12

They only built seven units because it was clear that the presumed demand for the greater number had collapsed.

As for the “wastefulness” of community groups, I think they’re doing about as well, if not better, than the for-profit builders at this point.

Comment by NoVa Sideliner
2008-05-07 08:35:37

At this point, yeah maybe, but they were working feverishly through all the boom years and still only got that many done? Hmmm…. How many did for-profit builders erect in that boom time as they created this overwhelming supply of empties?

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Comment by aimeejd
2008-05-07 10:00:10

but they were working feverishly through all the boom years and still only got that many done?

They were likely working feverishly through all the boom years to raise the funding for the plan, which is always the hard part for a non-profit. The for-profit builders just went to the banks, so they only had to work feverishly to throw all that OPM down the toilet, as they continue to do as we speak. If this organization finally has the money, but sees that the demand is no longer there, I’m just glad that they were capable of recognizing that. They could do what the private builders are doing and just forge ahead anyway and pray that they can sell on spec. I find that thinking infinitely more wasteful.

 
 
 
 
Comment by BottomFisher
2008-05-07 09:57:44

Starboard Side is out of money,finishing Starboard Side could now depends on government subsidies. he said.

Sailors learn quickly the right side is the starboard side if the ship…..but in this case, the Starboard Side project was on the ‘wrong’ side…..project overboard.

 
 
Comment by Ben Jones
2008-05-07 06:46:42

‘Home prices have dropped 23.2% since peaking in December 2005, according to the S&P/Case-Shiller Home Price Indices. And Michigan home sales fell 26.5%, from the peak of 137,558 homes sold in 2004 to 101,094 in 2007, according to the Michigan Association of Realtors.’

Except for a bit of time, there’s hardly any difference in these numbers and those in California. And California leads in foreclosures.

And note the $500k houses in Michigan down 100-300k. Sound familiar? And ‘quarter million dollar houses (and up)’ in South Dakota that people have to ’scrape up’ a downpayment for?

Comment by Bad Andy
2008-05-07 07:00:28

“And note the $500k houses in Michigan down 100-300k…”

Those $500K homes were very limited to “high end” suburbs in the Detroit area and Ann Arbor as a whole. Those are the only areas that really went insane because the economy in Michigan hasn’t been good since 2001.

That said, my parents old subdivision where homes went for $250K on up just a few years ago has homes listed for sale right now for $150K. This wasn’t over building or speculation, this was simple economics. As the state loses population, prices will continue to decline.

Comment by Ben Jones
2008-05-07 07:48:34

‘Michigan hasn’t been good since 2001′

Just yesterday in the California post, I had reports of the same poor income performance over the same time period! And if it wasn’t for illegal immigration, California population would be dropping too. IAs hardly support half million dollar houses.

I realize many have a hard time understanding the housing mania in a larger context, but everyday more similarities pop up between the coasts and the heartland.

BTW, ‘bull run’ in Ohio? People thinking of a house as an ‘investment?’ Where have we heard that before?

Comment by jetson_boy
2008-05-07 08:24:01

And if it wasn’t for illegal immigration, California population would be dropping too.

Oh I believe it. If you ever have a few minutes, look for a relocation site called city-data.com and check out cities like Raleigh-Durham, Austin, Atlanta, Houston, etc and you will be amazed at just how many people on any given day are moving or wanting to move there from NJ,NY,MA,MI,FL,CA,AZ… basically out of the bubblezones. The Raleigh one is particularly bad.
The states best represented there are as follows: FL,NJ,MI,and CA, but MI in particular has the most posts from people looking for work rather than those from the Northeast or the West Coast who are looking for affordable housing.

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Comment by JP
2008-05-07 08:29:12

public service close italics

 
Comment by jetson_boy
2008-05-07 08:54:57

Sorry about that. I put in a: , but it didn’t seem to work.

 
Comment by Doug in Boone, NC
2008-05-07 10:10:48

The problem with people moving out of the bubblezones, is kind of like people from, say, bad traffic areas, wanting to move to non-bad-traffic areas–soon, however, they end up turning non-bad-traffic areas into bad-traffic areas. Now they are turning non-bubblezones into bubblezones, by bringing their bubbles with them.

 
 
Comment by Climber
2008-05-07 08:24:45

I lived in Michigan for 28 years. Michigan has been declining since the 80’s. It’s not been straight down, and Ann Arbor has some glimmer of hi tech hope (U of M spinoffs), but it’s been down the whole time. If you inflation adjust prices in MI I doubt they’re up at all per square foot of house.

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Comment by In Colorado
2008-05-07 11:04:11

Too bad all those “newcomers” are uneducated, unskilled, low paid and pay little or no taxes. California will have to reduce spending and revenues are doomed to decline steadily. I can only anticpate the day when the room tax in Anaheim is 100%.

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Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-05-07 08:55:18

I went to college in Ann Arbor and make it a point to go back and visit every year.

On my last visit, I spent time with an old classmate whose office is just north of downtown Ann Arbor. Across the street was an old Greek Orthodox church. My friend said that the church building had been sold to developers. The plan was to turn the building into mixed-use commercial and residential.

But the plan never materialized. My friend said that the building had been taken over by the homeless.

 
 
 
Comment by Ben Jones
2008-05-07 06:55:56

‘A Twin Cities think tank is warning that record prices for farm land and crops could be setting up an “economic bubble” that poses risks for farmers in Minnesota.’

‘The parallels to what has just happened in the housing market is frightening close,’ said report author Lee Egerstrom of Minnesota 20-20. Egerstrom said the doubling and tripling of farm land prices in the past six years looks a lot like the housing bubble that started collapsing last year.’

‘We’re right at the point where we can see the same thing happen that happened to all these young families who had creative ways of buying homes in the suburbs and are now having them be foreclosed on,” Egerstrom said.’

Comment by SDGreg
2008-05-07 09:22:36

Wasn’t the hit that the farm belt took in the Great Depression not due just to lost crop production from the Dust Bowl, but also collapsing of land prices that had previously bubbled?

Comment by Ben Jones
2008-05-07 10:45:06

yep. Interest only loans. That was the last time they were so common.

Comment by ACH
2008-05-07 13:04:50

I think I see what is coming. WS will wake up to this stuff in midsummer or maybe a little later. In any case, we really haven’t seen real fear, despair, or capitulation, on WS, MS, housing, land, or anything else.
… just not there yet.
Roidy

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Comment by taxmeupthebooty
2008-05-07 07:18:38

year during which it sold a large portion of its land holdings and worked hard at cutting expenses.”
anyone have info/link on subdivided lots prices ?
interesting if you could pick it up w the foundation poured etc………

Comment by exeter
2008-05-07 09:47:07

Can’t cast concrete either?

 
Comment by uptown
2008-05-07 09:50:33

You may not be able to get a construction loan for building if the subdivision is mostly empty lots. I lived in the Chicago burbs during the 60’s-70’s and we had plenty of these after each bust, with street and sewers all ready to go; but until a developer came in, there was nothing built.
They sure love to overbuild in Chicago.

 
 
Comment by ET-Chicago
2008-05-07 07:22:47

The share of vacant houses and condominiums for sale in the Chicago area has moved higher the past two years, another sign of the slumping residential market.

The higher rate also suggests that new unsold condos and homes are piling up, especially downtown, where developers will complete a record 5,900 condos this year.

“Piling up” is an understatement.

The jumbo cranes are everywhere in the Loop and River North. These aren’t just 20 unit residential condos going up — they are multi-hundred unit buildings going up, and gawd, there are a lot of them.

I get multiple e-mails a week from the big Chicago real estate firm @properties touting their latest luxury towers — some of the buildings aren’t even scheduled to complete construction until next year. (At first I was annoyed that I’d landed on their mailing list, but now it gives me a chance to gloat.)

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-05-07 07:55:17

@properties occassionally gets some spam through at my work too. Their signs are everywhere - on both projects and individual dwellings too. They certainly are the condo gangstas.

 
Comment by snake charmer
2008-05-07 08:24:04

What’s the news on the Chicago Spire? Is construction underway?

Comment by Steve W
2008-05-07 08:48:23

“What’s the news on the Chicago Spire? Is construction underway?”

Yep. We’re gonna be the center of the universe. buy now.

 
Comment by ET-Chicago
2008-05-07 10:18:54

I posted a link to a Crain’s article a week or two back — apparently the developers keep missing the deadlines to pay their property tax bill, which is $430,000-ish. But it seems the project is still moving forward.

 
 
Comment by BottomFisher
2008-05-07 10:16:36

This is my kind of town, Chicago is (Frank Sinatra)

 
 
Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-05-07 07:50:13

‘In addition, landlords have not been able to attract tenants from the Chicago central business district as they may have hoped.’

A whole bunch of the ‘burbs along the Metra corridors built up their downtowns with condos. For a while I lived in one such place - Des Plaines - where they pretty much leveled and rebuilt the entire area around the train station over the past decade. The condos were targeted at both empty nesters (who presumably were selling their aging postwar SFH elsewhere in that same suburb) and Loop workers - who presumably would jump at the chance to ride the Metra.

Already in 2001 they were asking $205k for a new one bedroom at Library Court in Des Plaines. Now, if you knew Des Plaines - you’d understand why this is such a freakin’ joke with the condos here in Chicago. Put simply, if you ever need a new muffler for your car - go to Des Plaines - it’s that kinda place.

When it comes to condos - we are the Miami Beach of the Corn Belt.

Comment by ET-Chicago
2008-05-07 07:54:32

When it comes to condos - we are the Miami Beach of the Corn Belt.

Indeed.

 
Comment by grumpy realist
2008-05-07 18:05:56

I’m in Oak Park and it’s been pretty bubbly here for certain bits. $650K for new townhouses, which everyone (including the banks) thought was a total joke. The 50s era apartments-turned-condos are still sitting here in the $150K-$200K range, mainly because they don’t have parking and look like bits of Soviet architecture. And then all the stuff in the historical districts, where if Frank Lloyd Wright happened to walk by one day the building gets labeled as “influenced by Frank Lloyd Wright” and an extra $200K tacked onto the price.

 
Comment by Bloz
2008-05-07 20:37:14

The local slang for Des Plaines is Desperate Plaines.

 
 
Comment by Olympiagal
2008-05-07 07:55:17

The Star Tribune from Minnesota. “When those distressed properties are factored out, the Realtors say, the Twin Cities median price fell 3.9 percent in the past year, instead of an overall 10.4 percent decline.”

When you factor out the fact that I never went to med-school, why then, it’s easy to see that I am a neurosurgeon.

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-05-07 07:58:19

Foreclosures - can’t live with ‘em - can’t live without ‘em!

Comment by DinOR
2008-05-07 08:34:36

“there are two different market places and two different median prices” ( Kevin Knudsen MAAR )

In that regard it seems even REIC weenies are in agreement John? I’ve noticed this in nearly every market I’ve looked and it really is true. It also appears that once a home falls into N.O.D, default, foreclosure, there is no amount of gussying up that will bring it’s pricing BACK into the “1st. Market”. Once they’ve fallen behind on their payments even a few weeds in the front lawn take you out of the running? With inventories at record highs and new homes daily, there just isn’t enough room on the “main stage” and distressed sellers fall into a black hole they can’t get out of.

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-05-07 08:57:58

Yeah, they love the little bit of churn the foreclosure sales are creating - and point it out every chance they get - yet they don’t want to acknowledge an entire strata of comps?

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Comment by DinOR
2008-05-07 09:21:14

edgewaterjohn,

That’s their whole main function right now. Containment. If they couldn’t “hold the line” in terms of containing subprime, Alt-A and prime loans from spreading and contaminating across neighborhoods, income levels and even gated-communities they’ll have to segregate here.

I’ve looked at a lot of Vegas repo’s and while some are trashed many would only require minimal effort to bring up to snuff. Doing drywall repair and replacing cabinet hardware are chores most homeowners have done at one time or another anyway? Why the urgent need to point out they are REO’s?

 
 
 
 
Comment by BP
2008-05-07 08:27:07

Other than the head shot how was the play Mr. Lincoln?

 
 
Comment by desertdweller
2008-05-07 08:58:19

craigslist tidbit regarding Ohio.
Trade your house for 3 houses in Ohio !! - $200000 (All USA)

——————————————————————————–
Reply to: sale-647448052@craigslist.org
Date: 2008-04-18, 2:18PM PDT

Join my trade company 4 FREE http://www.ultimatebarter.com . I will give you THREE ( 3 ) $$$cash$$$ flow houses in Ohio for your California home worth over 200 K !!
gman238@aol.com

 
Comment by Jas Jain
2008-05-07 09:42:23


People don’t realize that despite prices being low in the Midwest, there was a huge increase if we take a long-term view.

Change In Real (Inflation-adjusted) Prices of Homes and Residential Land (Underneath the Existing Homes) from 1984 to 2004:

Cincinnati 56.30% 662.50%
Cleveland 60.30% 1208.60%
Columbus 56.30% 244.20%
Detroit_____ 102.10% 1214.60%
Indianapolis 38.00% 605.60%
KansasCity 35.50% 161.30%
Milwaukee 79.70% 568.00%
MinnStPaul 83.60% 591.60%
Pittsburgh 50.60% 682.10%
StLouis 48.20% 788.90%

The BUBBLE was truly national.

Jas

Comment by exeter
2008-05-07 09:50:59

Right on Jas. Don’t be fooled by huge disparities in pricing. That same 200k shack you’re thinking about in Frog Balls, Arkansas was selling for 50k in 2001.

Comment by ET-Chicago
2008-05-07 10:37:19

Hey, Frog Balls, Arkansas, is a nice place.

Has an Outback Steakhouse and everything.

Comment by exeter
2008-05-07 11:56:21

Outback Steakhouse? Frog Balls, Arkansas here we come!!! Wait a second….. Is Fox Noise broadcast there? Is there room enough in the driveway for my Chevy SLOBurban?

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Comment by sf jack
2008-05-07 09:54:18

The policy seemed simple enough:

“Easy money for everyone!”

“With a special ‘thank you’ to Easy Al Greenspan and the ‘Do Nothing’ Fed!”

*****

Looks as if KC missed out on the party, relatively speaking…

Comment by Jas Jain
2008-05-07 10:54:42


Right you are. The report (one of the authors was with the Fed) “blames” real negative rates for the bubble. It makes very clear that the 1998-2004 (the last period of the data for the report) bubble was truly national.

Jas

 
 
Comment by ronin
2008-05-07 10:16:57

I’m afraid I must question those numbers. At an average rate of inflation of 3.5% over that 20 year period, the price of a 100,000 would have doubled to 200,000. But your numbers say the average price of a house say in Cleveland appreciated even 60% over that? Cleveland, Ohio?

Comment by Jas Jain
2008-05-07 10:49:55


“I’m afraid I must question those numbers.”

You may be afraid, but data is from a good source with rigorous analysis. The numbers could be off 10-20%, but in either direction. The data available is inflation-adjusted, but it shouldn’t be too difficult to dig up nominal prices for Cleveland and Detroit in 1984. You must remember that auto industry was doing badly for many years during the period.

BTW, Dallas-Ft Worth did see decline in prices during 1984-2004 in real terms. I am sure than Ben can corroborate that. The oil industry did real well for many years prior to 1984.

Jas

Comment by ronin
2008-05-07 14:11:31

well, ok, if the source is rigorous should be easy to name it.

Since I was buying and selling houses in the Cleveland area in that timeframe I’ll compare it with my own real-life experience.

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Comment by Jas Jain
2008-05-07 14:40:30


Sorry, I didn’t realize that you wanted the reference. Here it is:

The Price of Residential Land in Large U.S. Cities
Morris A. Davis
University of Wisconsin
Michael G. Palumbo
Federal Reserve Board 
May 2006

Jas

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by TMoney
2008-05-07 09:47:07

Toledo didn’t have a housing bubble, we’ve been dying a slow economic death as the blue collar union job base is hollowed out. There is other money in these parts, but it didn’t want to live at that location. What works in other parts of the country doesn’t work here, it’s a small town, with no rush hour. People don’t like paying for parking here - even $3. The waterfront has potential (oodles actually), but there’s still a lot of industrial activity and that area wasn’t going to be uber-ritzy in the 1990s, 2000s (or any time in the future).

Comment by DinOR
2008-05-07 10:01:15

TMoney,

In other words… an actual town! Pre-boom you could have said the same for much of America. Before they decided their future was in serving up latte’s to aging/retired boomers and had to cater to all those quality of life issues? Trust me, there are scores of rust-belt towns I hope NEVER “get discovered”.

 
Comment by polly
2008-05-07 10:16:33

Just because prices didn’t go up, doesn’t mean you don’t have a bubble. Stable prices in a place where household income is lower or more at risk is still a bubble.

Comment by ronin
2008-05-07 10:21:52

I understand that the lack of falling prices prove there is a bubble is a standard assumption in these parts, but I don’t buy it. Prices are still pretty flat in the great lakes area… on average above a mid-90s price for a nice property, but on a par with say an early 21st century price.

Didn’t we assume that Cali and FLA prices should revert to a mean of about a 1999 price? That’s where the rust belt is. Not sure why there is an assumption that the rust belt should have seen the same 200% (!) fall, corresponding to the 200% rise in bubble towns.

 
 
Comment by Ben Jones
2008-05-07 10:47:29

‘People don’t like paying for parking here - even $3.’

But 7 paid 300k for condos.

Californians are pulling their hair out over $4 gas, but $1.5 million for a shack didn’t faze them.

 
 
Comment by EmperorNorton_II
2008-05-07 10:04:05

$250k houses in South Dakota are a “bright prospect”?

“Dunham knows of many new housing starts valued at a quarter-million dollars or more about to break ground. That’s a bright prospect, but there’s still caution in the air, he said.”

Comment by In Colorado
2008-05-07 11:12:44

Given that he median HH income in Sioux Falls is 41K those 250K houses overpriced by a factor of 2X.

Build them and they will come. Uh huh.

 
 
Comment by ronin
2008-05-07 10:24:58

>>”…Schottenstein attributes some of his company’s problems selling homes to consumers’ unrealistic expectations. He believes buyers expect to realize the full value of what they think their homes are worth before selling and moving up.”

As always, a businesses problems are the customer’s fault. Sounds like Schottenstein was the one with the unrealistic expectations.

Comment by In Colorado
2008-05-07 11:15:36

He should have said: ‘We overestimated our target customers ability to trade up”.

I guess the next time I drive past the BMW dealership I will go in and apologize for not buying a 7 series, even though it is clearly out of my league.

 
 
Comment by Blano
2008-05-07 10:35:08

Kevin Majors of Southfield lost his home to foreclosure last week after enduring a family loss and an adjustable rate mortgage that nearly doubled his monthly payments. He’s planning on moving to a small apartment.

“I feel terrible for anyone facing foreclosure,” said the 51-year-old RETIREE.

Deal with it, Kevin. I bet you were an autoworker. I’m only a few years younger than you and retirement isn’t even a concept with me. Just move along.

Comment by Ben Jones
2008-05-07 10:49:18

I saw that guy too. What’s with taking out the ARM after retirement? Expecting the ‘value’ to rise and pay it off? Also sounds familiar.

 
Comment by DinOR
2008-05-07 11:04:55

Blano,

Then age-wise I must be in the middle? Ahem, just being sick-of-work doesn’t mean you’re by any means ready to retire! Of equal importance is… just because you could never get along with your employers doesn’t mean you were meant to be self-employed!

One of my all-time-favorite cold calls was to an 80+ y.o guy that owned a camera shop in Philly. I asked if he was doing anything to plan for retirement? He said, “With my wife’s permission, I “retire” every evening thank you sir..”. (Good for you old-timer!)

Maybe if some of these guys talked to someone OTHER than the guy next to them on the assembly line they could get another perspective once in awhile?

 
Comment by joeyinCalif
2008-05-07 11:16:36

So, one little investment goes tits up and he’s gotta move into a small apartment, presumably to conserve money? How the F* can someone who is able to retire at 51 be threatened by something as inconsequential as losing a down payment, assuming he needed to come up with one in the first place..
To retire at 51 you better have upwards of 7 figures in the bank. He may be physically disabled and unable to work.. at this point i’m guessing he’s a mental case.

Comment by DinOR
2008-05-07 11:37:01

joey,

Exactly. I have clients that are at or near that figure and are even older and they’re scared to death of retiring that young! We keep getting these stories of retirees and the ARM loans from the MSM like we just can’t get enough!? Truthfully hearing it ONCE is… enough.

 
 
 
Comment by Halifax
2008-05-07 10:58:03

“When those distressed properties are factored out, the Realtors say, the Twin Cities median price fell 3.9 percent in the past year, instead of an overall 10.4 percent decline.”

When beer fat since college (1974) is factored out, my body-mass index is actually 24 instead of 29.

 
Comment by Mo Money
2008-05-07 10:58:20

Paulson Declares “Misson Accomplished”

http://tinyurl.com/4xhzzn

And next monkeys fly out of his rear end.

 
Comment by CGuy
2008-05-07 12:28:15

on another forum, someone from Michigan volunteered that people in their office were trying to sell RedWings playoff tix at face value, and were unable to find takers. Hard to believe that the economy is really that flat…

Comment by tresho
2008-05-07 18:02:51

I called my plumber this afternoon & found out he had retired due to arthritis. He’s 74. He said he sold his work truck, but was having trouble selling his specialized plumber’s tools. He had purchased several classified ads in the local paper & gotten no response. He said, “Nobody’s got any money!” All I could think was to refer him to the local Craig’s list.

 
 
Comment by JoJo
2008-05-08 10:11:00

““‘Everything’s on clearance now,’ said Amanda Callahan, an agent in Plymouth. ‘People are putting in $30,000 kitchens just to sell their houses and they don’t get that investment back.’””

What! You mean people finally wised up and aren’t willing to finance granite, travertine and stainless steel appliances for 30 years any more? You mean they’re actually basing their purchase on affordability instead of a few cosmetic improvements? Inconceivable!

 
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