May 7, 2008

The Race To The Bottom Is Picking Up Speed

The Sacramento Bee reports from California. “Robert Kleinhenz, deputy chief economist for the California Association of Realtors, gave an hour-long overview of the economy, the mortgage market and the housing outlook to the Sacramento Association of Realtors. His basic tone: big-time caution about the immediate future - and largely because the mortgage market is still cracking down and making it hard for many people to qualify for loans. But…like many others he is seeing a better second half of 2008 than this first half - and is using words like stabilizing.”

“More and more, even those like Kleinhenz who have proved overly optimistic in their previous forecasts, are offering some sense that - barring unforeseen events that bring big job losses - this year is going to see the worst of it for housing.”

“He predicted slight growth in Cailifornia’s economy during 2008 and cited the advantages that population growth brings to even a weak housing market. Especially the kind of growth that Sacramento will see by virtue of its growing affordability again and its inland California location.”

“Kleinhenz, representing an industry that resells existing homes, saw the near crash in building permits being taken out by home builders in the Sacramento region as a positive. He said: ‘This is a good thing because you don’t want more new-home production coming onto the market when there is so much for-sale inventory out there.’”

The Press Enterprise. “For five years more houses built meant more jobs in the Inland region, earning the area a spot in Forbes’ April roundup of best areas for job growth. Now, the jobs have stopped being created, and for the first time in the Inland region’s statistical history, the region’s job growth fell.”

“Riverside County hopes to secure a grant that would train residential construction workers in skills needed for commercial and redevelopment building, said Tom Freeman, spokesman for the Riverside County Economic Development Agency.”

“‘At a time when housing is slowing down, our sewer projects we’re doing, our roads projects were doing, our parks projects — all these create private sector jobs,’ Freeman said. ”

“Creating jobs to offset losses in home construction and related industries has posed a challenge, Freeman said.”

“Many colleages asked Bunker Rayner what he was thinking of when he bought Corona Mortgage Financial Corp. in March 2007, just when the real estate industry was collapsing and other mortgage brokers were closing their doors.”

“He concedes it was ‘the worst time you could buy a mortgage company’ and he embarked on the venture very nervously. During an interview last week, Rayner was optimistic. He pointed to a sign in his lobby that says ‘We’ve been invited to a recession. We respectfully decline.’”

“The mountain of bank-repossessed houses ultimately will evolve into sales because lenders will be forced to drop prices as far as necessary to unload those properties, Rayner said.”

“Q: Are you doing much refinancing for people who can no longer afford the rising interest rates on their adjustable mortgages? A: No. There are people who call and want to refinance their homes…but a lot are upside down on their homes and there is nothing I can do.”

“Q: How do you retain employees when business is so tough? A: It is hard. I have lost loan officers on commission who have gone back to regular 9 to 5 jobs.”

“Q: Are you having difficulty getting people to qualify under the tighter lending standards? A: Probably one of every five people I talk to qualify for a loan. It is all a numbers game.”

The San Bernardino Sun. “A bank employee stumbled upon a foreclosed house used to grow marijuana, leading to the seizure of an estimated $4.5 million in drugs in two houses and an arrest Saturday.”

“Police began investigating the case Thursday when the bank employee inspecting a foreclosed house found pot plants inside. Evidence there led police to another house used to grow marijuana in Fontana.”

“The five-bedroom houses sit in upscale neighborhoods. Angel Wayhang Kou, 30, of Rancho Cucamonga was booked into jail on suspicion of cultivating marijuana, maintaining a residence for drugs, theft of utilities and conspiracy. Police Sgt. Jeff Decker said Kou owned both homes, but both were in foreclosure.”

The Reporter. “Vallejo is set to become the largest California city to declare bankruptcy after leaders voted in favor of the solution to the city’s spiraling budget crisis. The city council voted unanimously Tuesday night following hours of public comment.”

“Vallejo has been slammed by increasing costs of its public safety contracts, the housing crisis, lower property values and state raids on local coffers.”

“Former Chamber of Commerce chairwoman Verna Mustico warned that if the city files for bankruptcy it could make the current housing crisis worse. But numerous residents agreed with the city manager’s office that at the end of the fiscal year, Vallejo will run out of money and had no other option but Chapter 9 protection.”

The Contra Costa Times. “A day of tough decisions for Contra Costa supervisors ended Tuesday with unanimous approval of a county budget that will slash nearly $51.7 million from programs.”

“For the first time in a decade, county spending will drop next year. It had been rising by 7 percent annually. But as the economy falters and the housing market implodes, revenue and expenses will dip by 4 percent. All told, that represents an 11 percent shift from a typical budget year.”

“The supervisors…also noted that these cuts are just the beginning. The county is bracing for millions of dollars more in losses when lawmakers complete the state budget this summer.”

“The budget shortfall ‘has forced us to look at new ways of doing things,’ Supervisor Gayle Uilkema said. ‘Right now, this is discouraging. … But the reality is, the world is going to be brighter from Contra Costa’s view if we stop digging a (financial) hole.’”

From ABC 7 News. “The combination of foreclosures and declining property values are putting a squeeze on local governments throughout the Bay Area. Marin County will probably have to lower the assessed value of at least 1,000 homes. Contra Costa County is re-assessing about 65,000 properties, and expects to lose at least $40 million in taxes as a result.”

“Alameda County will reassess about 40,000 homes and business at a cost of at least $20 million in property taxes and the South Bay may take the biggest hit of all.”

“‘We proactively reduced the assessed value on 43,000 residential properties this year,’ says Clara County Assessor Larry Stone.”

“Santa Clara County’s reassessment of 43,000 properties has resulted in $6 to $7 billion of property tax value to disappear. The county’s share of those revenues is one percent which is a loss of $60 to $70 million.”

“Santa Clara County is facing a $172 million deficit this year according to county executive Peter Kutras. ‘We’re struggling and there is no way we can get enough revenue to keep us going,’ says Kutras.”

Bay Area Newsgroup “The slide in residential real estate prices and sales has yet to abate, and could hound the economy for two more years, according to an ominous assessment presented Tuesday at a realty conference.”

“What’s more, when the housing market manages to stagger back on its feet, don’t expect it to come roaring back, according to Kenneth Rosen, chairman of the Berkeley-based Fisher Center for Real Estate and Urban Economics, which sponsored the conference in San Francisco.”

“‘To think that we will have a big recovery in housing is a mistake,’ Rosen told the conference.”

“The big unknown is the state of the economy generally. The housing market slump also could imperil the overall economy, especially consumer spending. That’s because home owners in recent years had tapped the equity in their homes through residence-backed lines of credit.”

“The jump in home equity bolstered the income of a typical family with two wage earners. ‘People also had a third earner in the family,’ Rosen said. ‘That was the house.’”

“In the housing industry builders and buyers have been at a stalemate. Who wants to buy when the price might go down? And while builders need to sell their homes, they also needed a way to convince buyers. So in this game of chicken, builders have pulled off the road and are offering price guarantees to sweeten the deal.”

“Signature Properties, based in Pleasanton, has a few communities with a two-year price guarantee, including two in Livermore and others in Concord, San Pablo, Richmond and San Francisco. There are some restrictions to the deal.”

“‘We believe the homes will hold the value pretty well and after the next two years, I think we will find some recovery in the marketplace,’ said Linda Kime, vice president of sales and marketing for Signature Properties.”

“Homes prices have also gone down, more than 18 percent year-over-year in Alameda County, DataQuick Information Services Inc. reported. Prices have gone down from 4.4 percent in Marin to 26.9 percent in Contra Costa counties.”

“‘We know the market sucks. The questions is what are you going to do about it?’ Pacific West, a Reno, Nev. builder writes on its Web site. The builder, which has homes in El Dorado Hills and the Central Valley, is guaranteeing if the price drops before the last home sells in the community, it will issue a check to the buyer for the difference — even if it’s two or three years later.”

“Jed Kolko, a research fellow at the San Francisco-based Public Policy Institute of California, said that while the price guarantees could encourage sales, the risk to builders is low. At best it’s an insurance against a small or modest drop in prices and not a big fall.”

“‘If prices fall significantly, then the developer might not be selling homes in the community anymore or even go out of business,’ he said. ‘Then the guarantee would be worthless.’”

From CNBC. “I’m no expert on, well, anything. That’s why I report what other people say. Increasingly, experts are saying we are at the bottom of the housing cycle.”

“Exhibit A: I interviewed ‘golden boy’ developer Rick Caruso last week. He said that while it’s difficult to predict a bottom, he’s investing now. I’ve never known him to be wrong.”

“Exhibit B: Hedge fund manager Cyrill Moulle-Berteaux writes in the Wall Street Journal that home sales are bottoming and that price declines will quickly slow. Soon, people will start buying again, owners underwater in mortgages will be more willing to tough it out, and mortgage-backed securities will stabilize.”

“Exhibit C: A friend who runs a homebuilder in foreclosure-heavy Stockton says appraisers are using foreclosures as comps, driving down prices. This is forcing him to match those prices or risk losing loans for his buyers because his new homes are too ‘expensive.’ The race to the bottom is picking up speed.”




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107 Comments »

Comment by Jas Jain
2008-05-07 16:05:20


‘We’re struggling and there is no way we can get enough revenue to keep us going,’

Come on, gals & guys, get creative and slap Luxury Home Tax on all homes above $1M and Super Luxury Home Tax on homes above $10M.

Jas

Comment by Mo Money
2008-05-07 16:40:09

Of course across the board pay cuts for our bloated, overpaid, over pensioned, over benefited government workers is never an option

Comment by bottomfisherman
2008-05-07 17:04:32

Then let the layoffs begin… :)

 
Comment by are they crazy
2008-05-07 17:49:59

You have a real thing against government workers. Have you ever personally known anyone that was a government worker? I have been several times and have known lots of others and we’re just regular folks. Pay was always nearly $10 to $20K less than public sector for same type of job and had to work just as hard. The benefits were not enough better to make up for the money. No longer a governement worker for that reason.

Comment by Paul in Jax
2008-05-07 19:58:44

Are you kidding? Anybody who knows three people knows a government worker. Approximately 33% of all employment is with the government, and (political incorrectness alert) the figure is near 50% for African-Americans.

Same type of job? It’s not just about putting in hours, it’s about being productive. Oh, yeah, we’re just regular folks. Why do teaching jobs generally pay less in private schools than government schools? Why does the government insist on monopolizing schools, not to mention mail delivery, trash collection, fire prevention, and insist on bombarding us with taxpayer-funded “methods” of making us safe, protecting us from having bad thoughts, and every other piece of crap we have to listen to on the radio and read on billboards every day? Why does the government insist on creating jobs that don’t exist in the private sector?

I’ve had it up to here with the government workers, especially local government workers - sorry, but they generally deserve a type of scorn that does not accrue to people who work in the private sector. Why do you think you make more in the private sector? Because you can - most government workers can’t.

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Comment by spike66
2008-05-07 20:09:11

“I’ve had it up to here with the government workers, especially local government workers”

Amen.

 
Comment by GH
2008-05-07 21:33:27

I could not agree more! Well said.

 
 
Comment by OperationNorthwoods
2008-05-07 20:00:38

But that’s certainly not the case in Vallejo. The average salaries for firemen and police were quite high, as were starting salaries. I don’t have the numbers available offhand, but they were practically astounding.

In any case, many of us on this board would agree that the problem is simply too much government spending, especially on things that don’t create an infrastructure for a good country. The individual civil servants are not really the issue.

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Comment by warlock
2008-05-08 10:30:36

so, those corrupt realtors, appraisers, mortgage brokers, they were all government workers then.

Those guys making out like bandits on hedge funds, using 95% borrowed money, they’re government workers too, eh.

Those banks, the ones that are 6 months or more behind on foreclosure findings, and can’t shovel in dollar bills fast enough right now to keep themselves above water, they were government workers too, eh?

The broader the brush, the more clueless the wielder.

 
 
Comment by joe4702
2008-05-07 20:22:26

You probably didn’t work in CA, then. For example, San Diego is going broke due to public employee salary, benefit and pension payouts. Google “San Diego DROP Program” for just one example of the outrageous benefits city workers are eligible for.

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Comment by pismoclam
2008-05-07 20:32:46

Total BS. I worked in my younger life for the State. Left after 2 years. Couldn’t stand all the idiots picking up pay checks for no work. Cut all the pay and benifits by 15% would solve it.

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Comment by Santa Bubblicious
2008-05-07 21:59:51

I’m going to have to call BS on that one. I know PLENTY of gov’t workers. There are good, hard workers that deserve respect, probably about 1 out of 7-10. That 1 poor bastard pretty much keeps things running while the other 6-9 complain about how their job sucks, how their pay sucks, take a long coffee break, go for a walk, long lunch, complain about their manager, browse the web, look at the clock, go home 5’sharp, repeat.

That’s the problem, most are WAY overpaid, and could not cut it in the real world. If there was any justice someone would fire the useless people and double the salaries of the remaining. The same work would get done and the budget problem would be solved.

But I’m sure the union would have something to say about that. Can’t do anything to reduce the number of union members.

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Comment by jtie
2008-05-08 04:04:53

I agree with you.

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Comment by sfv_hopeful
2008-05-08 08:28:35

I had the misfortune of doing a contract gig in local government a long while back. So I needed to get a client’s sign-off on something I was working on but had been done with for a couple of weeks. My manager was pressuring me to get this signed off, but every time I tried, the client would respond, “Oh, you know how it is… we’re just sooo swamped around here”. Well, she was a true 9-5er, as in she came in at 9:00, and left at 5:00:01. Oh, and she had her daily 3:00-3:30 Bejeweled time where she would play some video game daily. After a few more days of getting the run-around, I pleaded with something like, “Would it be possible for you to take 10 minutes out of your bejeweled time and look over the document?” Well, that didn’t go over well and she complained about me to my managing partner and got me kicked off the project. He gave me a verbal lashing, and tried to transfer me to a different project (another government contract), which of course I turned down. That was my first and last 6 months of government work. Oh and if you look at the numbers, the amount of financial waste that goes on simply boggles the mind. I’ve particularly despised additional local school taxes “for the children” ever since.

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Comment by Big V
2008-05-07 18:05:11

I recently discovered that mid-level cops in my city earn about $105k/year, get military life insurance, 5% bilingual pay, and one-year highest-wage calculation for pension. They also try to get out of doing anything at all, inlcuding busting pot-smoking kids who hang out at the lake after closing time. Those kids better hope the cops root em out, cause if I catch em, they’re getting spray painted.

Comment by Leighsong
2008-05-07 18:17:15

Great visual V!

Graffiti kids?

Hey, can I help?

Leigh ;)

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Comment by SaladSD
2008-05-07 19:54:30

And I thought you were going to say upper management/executives….

 
 
Comment by cactus
2008-05-07 20:28:12

How about a temporary emergency sales taxes that will eventualy become permanente? Like the earthquake tax under Pete Wilson that became the save our police and fireman tax

 
Comment by SV guy
2008-05-08 04:36:49

F that Jas. How about reduce spending.

There’s a concept.

I know someone very high in SC Co. Government.

He says the first item approved in the budget is their salaries and benefits.

Go figure.

Mike

 
 
Comment by Jas Jain
2008-05-07 16:08:51


“The housing market slump also could imperil the overall economy, especially consumer spending.”

Could? Don’t you look at the data that clearly show that it already has and is getting worse by the day?

Academics are as bad as other industry economists in not telling the truth.

Jas

Comment by hoz
2008-05-07 16:33:49

“…Zumiez, a board-sports apparel maker which has almost all of its stores in the West, posted a April same-store sales increase of 4.1%, almost double analysts’ estimates….”
WSJ Real Time Economics May 7

WalMart and others report tomorrow. Expect a large increase in sales over March as a result of clearance sales. see Zumiez report above.

Zumiez’s report is interesting.

Comment by Not Mssing It
2008-05-07 16:44:47

Be very curios to know what percentage of transactions were paid for with cash?

Comment by measton
2008-05-07 18:02:17

Given recent report of record consumer debt, I’d say most of the purchases paid for w credit.

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Comment by Big V
2008-05-07 18:07:29

Why pay cash? You can’t get the credit-card incentives that way.

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Comment by SDGreg
2008-05-07 18:52:14

“Academics are as bad as other industry economists in not telling the truth.”

Not all. Nouriel Roubini is one that has been not only on top of this situation, but way ahead of most others. The only criticism one might make of his projections is that they haven’t proven bearish enough even though they were the most bearish of projections.

Comment by Paul in Jax
2008-05-07 20:01:12

That’s not exactly true. Although he has been correct about the housing market, GDP has consistently outperformed his projections for the past 4-5 quarters.

 
 
 
Comment by Jas Jain
2008-05-07 16:11:53


“‘If prices fall significantly, then the developer might not be selling homes in the community anymore or even go out of business,’ he said. ‘Then the guarantee would be worthless.’”

I am glad that someone caught the catch. Gimmicks are part of the game.

Jas

Comment by Mo Money
2008-05-07 16:41:47

We guarantee your home to not lose value in the next two years as long as we don’t go into bankruptcy, wink wink.

Comment by pos
2008-05-07 17:43:02

What happens when the developer guaranteed 30 houses at a price of $500K and he has 5 remaining houses to sell when the market value drops to $400K.
The developer could
A) Bulldoze 5 houses and lose $2 million.
B) Honor his word and pay back 30 families the $100K and lose $3 million.

My gut tells me that the developer will chose (A)

Comment by Big V
2008-05-07 18:09:38

Or concoct some crazy-low interest scheme for the remaining 5 buyers so they still pay $500k in principal, but save an extra $100k on interest.

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Comment by WhatOnceWas
2008-05-07 19:57:09

Or make sure it’s an LLC ,and say adios suckers !

 
Comment by rdc
2008-05-07 20:27:01

or give 150k in options and keep the price at 500k

 
 
Comment by DebtInNation
2008-05-07 20:41:35

There are more escape routes in these so-called guarantees than there are in a whorehouse. First of all, there is no “market price” guarantee; so Freddie FB may be able to sell you his house cheaper in one year, but the builder can still charge a higher price and kick back the financing, incentives, etc., and not violate his “guarantee.” Second, what’s to stop the builder from modifying the floor plan a little so you aren’t buying an “identical” house?

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Comment by Semper Fi
2008-05-07 16:15:07

Where do they get the 18.7% decline for Alameda County? I am still seeing insane $400/sqft asking prices. If selling prices are down, shouldn’t that show up in asking prices by now?

Comment by Troy
2008-05-07 16:29:52

My friend sold his place in San Leandro for $600K back in Feb 2007. Zillow sez it’s worth $500K now.

 
Comment by sf jack
2008-05-07 16:31:17

I suppose this could, at least in some circumstances, depend on whether the seller is getting the message that they need to lower their asking…

Are these asking prices the ones that are getting more stale by the day?

Comment by NoSingleOne
2008-05-07 19:31:37

Does anyone think Zillow is useful anymore? I think it will go the way of Pets.com, given all the bs they are publishing on their site.

Comment by Mole Man
2008-05-07 20:06:09

This isn’t realistic. All they are doing is picking up data now and then and running some calculations with the numbers. All they have are recent transactions, so they will always trail trends. The main point of Zillow is to interact with the maps, the data, find comperables, and all that. If you know how to use the information given then it should be possible to come up with some reasonable figure. Expecting the Zestimate to be the number is probably never going to make sense.

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Comment by Not Mssing It
2008-05-07 16:46:54

Compare. I’ll bet if you venture into brand-new developments you will not find $400/sqft. Asking and selling are two very different things.

 
Comment by John
2008-05-07 16:52:04

In 2007 the market for low-end housing fell apart while the mid-to-high end kept selling, so the values seemed to stay high. Now the market for mid-to-high end is frozen because the “jumbo” fixes aren’t working and few buyers can get loans. Only foreclosures are currently selling, driving down the active market and leaving a lot of offering prices out of whack.

Next to crack are those on the financial edge in mid-to-high end houses, and prices will continue to drop. Finally, when that dust settles long-time-owner retirees will keep selling as they move to rest homes or out of state. And prices will continue to drift down. Until 2012-2015.

By summer 2009 shock and despair will take over and the biggest declines will occur. Dead man walking.

Comment by NoSingleOne
2008-05-07 17:44:34

This is music to my ears. I’ve been watching the higher end homes and the prices have barely dropped. When they drop maybe 10% or so, then there are sometimes bidding wars. It seems that the wealthiest buyers are still keeping things rolling, and I’m mystified because these were the houses that appreciated in price the most during the bubble. In contrast, the lower end to mid-range homes have gotten cheaper and are turning around much faster.

Comment by DebtInNation
2008-05-07 20:46:00

I think that will change this summer as those who bought 750K+ houses with option-ARMs are soiling their underwear right now.

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Comment by uptick
2008-05-07 17:47:43

Good post. mid-to-high end houses about to go here…

Sacramento lower end housing example:
4 beds, 3.0 baths, 1,915 sq ft
List Price: $164,900
Sale History
09/18/2007: $310,500 *
12/29/2000: $144,500

 
Comment by Big V
2008-05-07 18:11:43

Dead man tanking.

 
Comment by DebtInNation
2008-05-07 20:44:23

The market reminds me of that game Tetris, where you had to clear out the bottom levels and then the mid and top levels that were clogged up came crashing down to the lower levels.

 
Comment by DebtInNation
2008-05-07 20:50:29

I’m noticing an interesting gap occuring here in SD, where a decent house of 2,800+ SF can now be had for $450K, but comparable house in Carmel Valley or 4S ranch is still $750K. IMO, the variation between the two should be $100-$150K TOPS, not $300K. I predict that those McShatboxes are going to fall easily, and soon, from about $750K to $550K.

Comment by DebtInNation
2008-05-07 20:51:30

“where a decent house of 2,800+ SF can now be had for $450K”
Meant to say in Escondido.

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Comment by Jon Bristow
2008-05-12 13:44:02

Why would anyone call Escondido part of San Diego? It’s like saying that El Cajon is legitimately not on the edge of nowhere.

You might as well live in the scuzzy part of Poway.

 
 
 
 
Comment by Jas Jain
2008-05-07 17:17:56


DataQuick (all homes and condos, new as well as resales):
Alameda County
March 2008: $493,500 & March 2007 $589,500, -18.13%, YoY

Peak: $625,000, down 21% from the peak.

Cities with big declines, YoY:

ALBANY -22.27%
CASTRO VALLEY -23.62%
DUBLIN -22.36%
EMERYVILLE -28.57%
HAYWARD -31.76%
LIVERMORE -17.36%
NEWARK -31.69%
PLEASANTON -17.85%
SAN LEANDRO -18.32%
SAN LORENZO -32.57%
UNION CITY -17.68%

Jas

Comment by sfbayeng
2008-05-07 20:03:05

What about in Fremont, in Mission School District (zip code 94539)?

What I see in the neighborhood are quick sales (within 2 weeks) with multiple offers for homes over $1M.

It has a long way to go before I can say there are any meaningful reductions in home prices here.. Koolaid flowing freely still.

-IR

 
 
 
Comment by Wilson
2008-05-07 16:15:56

“Exhibit A: I interviewed ‘golden boy’ developer Rick Caruso last week. He said that while it’s difficult to predict a bottom, he’s investing now. I’ve never known him to be wrong.”

Yeah…he’s not biased. Not at all.

Actually, I hope he’s investing heavily. Maybe I can pick up one of his shopping centers for pennies on the dollar when he goes belly up…

Comment by CasaTostada
2008-05-08 09:55:19

I liked the one below. Paraphrase: “He’s been overly optimistic all along, but even he now says that it looks like the worst is over.” Um, isn’t that a reason NOT to believe him …

“More and more, even those like Kleinhenz who have proved overly optimistic in their previous forecasts, are offering some sense that - barring unforeseen events that bring big job losses - this year is going to see the worst of it for housing.”

 
 
Comment by joeyinCalif
2008-05-07 16:22:55

“‘If prices fall significantly, then the developer might not be selling homes in the community anymore or even go out of business,’ he said. ‘Then the guarantee would be worthless.’”

worthless? Not necessarily.. You guys are confident prices won’t fall, right? Well, alls we gotta do is tuck the refund-money safely away in an escrow account, just in case. My atty can draw up the papers.

Comment by ex-nnvmtgbrkr
2008-05-07 16:57:22

C’mon Joey, were’s the trust?

Comment by joeyinCalif
2008-05-07 17:33:33

in the words of the Gipper.. “Trust, but verify.”

 
 
 
Comment by Muggy
2008-05-07 16:27:57

“We’ve been invited to a recession. We respectfully decline.”

Wait, is this a Florida thread? That line is very Snaithy.

Comment by Muggy
2008-05-07 16:29:49

Try this goofy suit on.

 
Comment by Mo Money
2008-05-07 16:43:52

You’ve also been invited to bankruptcy, and we don’t take no for an answer.

 
Comment by ex-nnvmtgbrkr
2008-05-07 17:01:21

But apparently he mailed in his RSVP to the “JT Sodomy Extravaganza”.

Comment by Muggy
2008-05-07 18:46:39

C’mon man, there’s kids on this blog. Geez.

 
Comment by DebtInNation
2008-05-07 20:53:39

Couldn’t you just say “JT Cleansing Fiesta?”

 
 
 
Comment by sf jack
2008-05-07 16:29:16

“What’s more, when the housing market manages to stagger back on its feet, don’t expect it to come roaring back, according to Kenneth Rosen, chairman of the Berkeley-based Fisher Center for Real Estate and Urban Economics, which sponsored the conference in San Francisco.”

“‘To think that we will have a big recovery in housing is a mistake,’ Rosen told the conference.”

“The jump in home equity bolstered the income of a typical family with two wage earners. ‘People also had a third earner in the family,’ Rosen said. ‘That was the house.’”

*****

It’s funny to see Ken Rosen showing the way: “… when the housing market manages to stagger back on its feet…”

2012?

2015?

I wonder when?

*****

Re: the third income

In any case, I have a teacher friend in Silicon Valley and I recall telling him a couple or more years ago that he and his wife were “earning” an extra $8,000 a month or so on their house.

He laughed, and agreed that those days were ending. He didn’t quite understand how his neighbors saw it that way, however (HELOCs and toys).

*****

I have a group of other friends in the Alt-A Bay who all bought in 2003 or 2004; definitely not teachers, at least in income, judging by the houses.

If one uses some of the usual metrics, it’s not hard to see that their places are now not much in front of inflation over the intervening years.

All have very solid careers and make great money. The question is when do they cut back because they feel “less in the money”, especially after each and every one of them looks to get out of those 5/1 ARMs over the next year.

Comment by Big V
2008-05-07 18:15:38

5/1 ARM? Oh. In that case, you know they aren’t making enough to cover the reset. This is where the economy won’t matter. Great career and great income still can’t pay the mortgage!

 
 
Comment by sfbubblebuyer
2008-05-07 16:30:29

More and more, even those like Kleinhenz who have proved overly optimistic in their previous forecasts, are offering some sense that - barring unforeseen events that bring big job losses - this year is going to see the worst of it for housing.

Um, exactly WHY would we be listening to them? They’re basically saying “Even those who were wrong before about housing having a down turn are now saying we’re at a bottom.”

Why is there an EVEN at the beginning of that sentence? These are EXACTLY the jerkholes we expect to be calling a bottom. They were wrong before, and they’re likely wrong now. A better way to phrase it would have been “Even overly optimistic jerkholes admit it will be at least another six months before the bottom. So expect them to keep predicting a bottom six months out for another few years. But one thing you can take to the bank. The bottom isn’t now. Not even the fairy tale spinners can say that with a straight face.”

Comment by SDGreg
2008-05-07 18:58:37

As soon as I see “… Association of Realtors”, I know it’s time to stop reading that section. It’s no longer even entertainingly wrong. It should be there, though, to be on the record as being wrong…again.

 
 
Comment by Not Mssing It
2008-05-07 16:37:47

“Santa Clara County’s reassessment of 43,000 properties has resulted in $6 to $7 billion of property tax value to disappear. The county’s share of those revenues is one percent which is a loss of $60 to $70 million.”

Oh dear and just when Police and Fire got used to making $50 per hour. That’s tough. It’s not like they can easily move over into engineering or medical fields, something more along the lines of driving truck for UPS is my guess.

Comment by Mo Money
2008-05-07 17:07:13

The Fire and Police and untouchable, strong unions and public sentiment about always wanting even more protection keep it that way despite the stories of unlimited OT, early retirements, double dipping and very rich pensions

 
Comment by Vermontergal
2008-05-07 17:10:11

Actually, as long as they are 1/2 decent, I don’t mind police and firefighters making top dollar. Law and order works for me. ;)

What irritates the heck out of me is all the administrators of unimportant departments and projects making top dollar for pushing papers.

Comment by IUnknown
2008-05-07 17:36:12

Agree… get rid of all the socialist bloat… needle programs, after school programs, economic development programs, etc…. etc… etc…. get gov’t back to the business of running a city ie fixing public roads, utilities, and protecting the citizen’s rights.

Comment by Big V
2008-05-07 18:19:31

I have a feeling the after-school programs cost less than the cops and jails that would be required to lock up all those bored, unsupervised kids. Besides, as I posted above, cops these days are more inclined to let stuff slide. Totally not worth it in that case.

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Comment by InfoAge
2008-05-07 18:08:59

the stories of unlimited OT, early retirements, double dipping and very rich pensions

Mo money is spot on. I know many who stretch a $50-60 salary into $100K, $150K or more on OT and double dipping. They get a disproportionate share. I would rather increase their base and end the OT, especially given how much time off they get.

 
 
Comment by Mary
2008-05-07 17:58:40

The county governments seem to have been as clueless as homebuyers - thinking their gravy train in the form of higher property tax revenues would never decrease. Just like the state of California in terms of income tax receipts. Why was everyone so dumb?

 
Comment by Big V
2008-05-07 18:17:37

I’m not even sure what that paragraph was supposed to mean. I can only read in English.

 
Comment by rms
2008-05-07 23:21:25

“Oh dear and just when Police and Fire got used to making $50 per hour. That’s tough. It’s not like they can easily move over into engineering or medical fields, something more along the lines of driving truck for UPS is my guess.”

Any idea how tough it is these days to find applicants that are in good physical shape with an average IQ to fill these jobs? How would you like to arrest a third-strike felon? How would you like to climb a ladder four stories high? The average pear-shaped Barney isn’t up to the task.

Comment by Happy2Rent
2008-05-09 02:18:57

I’m late to this thread, but TESTIFY BRUTHAH!!!

 
 
Comment by felix
2008-05-08 00:09:04

The fired cops could be prison guards or pick up trash or do some manual labor cutting lawns. The problem is that they have mentally been trained to think of the average Joe as a perp, so they are likely to be dysfunctional and not fit in to the workforce.

 
 
Comment by arroyogrande
2008-05-07 16:42:39

Hank Paulson says that the scariest part is over. Looks like we don’t need a bail-out.

whew, I’m glad that the housing and credit bust is over. Happy days are here again!

(FWIW, those that were calling a bottom due to the lack of bullish sentiment, looks like we have a ways to go…the bulls are back and calling the bottom!)

Comment by ex-nnvmtgbrkr
2008-05-07 17:22:15

Perhaps Paulson and Bush are takin a stance that will justify the veto of “Barney Bill”. Actually, now that I think about it, Barney Frank in a purple dinosaur suit would be an improvement.

 
Comment by Bubble Butt
2008-05-07 18:21:17

The stock market really rallied on that news……oh wait, sorry we were down 205 points today.

Comment by SDGreg
2008-05-07 19:03:08

And housing in all of those out of the way places will make a roaring comeback in the second half of ‘08 when oil goes to $150+/barrel and gas to $5+/gallon. Maybe not.

Comment by ex-nnvmtgbrkr
2008-05-07 21:09:39

I think we’ll be lucky if it stays at or below $150.

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Comment by Ernst Blofeld
2008-05-07 22:50:29

Eh. From the standpoint of the financial system a lot of
the MBS’s may actually be rationally priced now, and the
losses to the banks realized. (I don’t know that that’s true,
but I wouldn’t dismiss the possibility out of hand.) The market
can price in future home price declines and default rates
on the bonds before the houses are actually foreclosed
upon.

Maybe the banks are through the worst of it, and the homeowners
are just dead men walking for the next couple years.

 
Comment by PDX Renter
2008-05-08 07:31:39

Billions if not Trillions of financial mistakes have been made that MUST be corrected and the authorities are doing everything they can to PREVENT it.

 
 
Comment by Mo Money
2008-05-07 16:47:53

“He predicted slight growth in Cailifornia’s economy during 2008 and cited the advantages that population growth brings to even a weak housing market. Especially the kind of growth that Sacramento will see by virtue of its growing affordability again and its inland California location.”

Dude, what you smoking ? Who cares if population increases if people are living stacked like firewood since there is no affordable housing and just exactly where is that job growth ? Not everyone in the Sacramento region can make ends meet working mall jobs.

Comment by bottomfisherman
2008-05-07 17:14:18

“…and its inland California location.”

LOL. What may I ask is the benefit an inland CA location?

Comment by jbunniii
2008-05-08 15:57:05

You get to pay California prices and taxes for a Texas-like environment.

 
 
Comment by Deflationary Jane
2008-05-07 17:31:18

Sacramento did have large pop growth in 06 and 07. It was all births. The trophy wives all figured out that babies make great status accessories. The only job growth will be for checkout clerks at Baby Gap.

 
Comment by Big V
2008-05-07 18:21:41

Funny, I could have sworn that the US Census Bureau has been reporting a population decline in CA.

Comment by SDGreg
2008-05-07 19:08:02

Are those “anchor” babies some how earning more than those middle class adults exiting the state?

 
Comment by Paul in Jax
2008-05-07 20:07:27

Not sure what’s happened in the last 22 months, but from the last census (2000) until July, 2006, California grew by 7.6%, considerably faster than U.S. growth of 6.4%:

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/06000.html

 
 
 
Comment by Ouro Verde
2008-05-07 16:50:26

Funny Mo.
Just leave your fico at the door.
We might look at it or just forward your app to our ‘in home’ financial department.
They give great rates. We really like the fees and perks.
Oh and it helps if you don’t read any fine print.
Who wants to make a killing by buying at the bottom?

 
Comment by Mo Money
2008-05-07 16:53:06

“I’m no expert on, well, anything.”

What I like about this article is the “big money” guys are completely clueless and setting themselves up to lose money hand over fist (seems to be a particular talent with these goldenboys) while the guy on the bottom rung gets to see what is really going on in the market.

Comment by shannon
2008-05-07 17:32:00

Rick Caruso has a 20,000 square foot house in Bentwood with a staff of 10. He also has a house in Newport Beach with a dock out front. He has NO IDEA what the average or even above average earner is going through. Do you think he even thinks twice when he fills up his car with gas? 4.05 medium grade a gallon in Orange County. He brags that The Grove, which he developed, gets more visitors than Disneyland. Duh! It’s free. Let hin invest. I can guarantee you he is not buying those thousands of starter homes in default.

 
Comment by Real Estate Refugee
2008-05-07 18:25:29

You mean like Donald Trump? Seems to me he’s gone bankrupt once or twice.

Comment by Ed
2008-05-07 20:05:22

the idea that you can stiff your creditors through bankruptcy yet still live in luxury, or even make a comeback and be required to pay none of that money back, is the biggest crime in the US today IMHO.

Comment by joeyinCalif
2008-05-07 20:59:47

Nobody is getting stiffed. Lenders love to gamble on Trump.. He has had huge failures but they willingly accept that risk.

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Comment by Big V
2008-05-07 18:00:56

From CNBC. “I’m no expert on, well, anything. That’s why I report what other people say. Increasingly, experts are saying we are at the bottom of the housing cycle.”

“Exhibit A: I interviewed ‘golden boy’ developer Rick Caruso last week. He said that while it’s difficult to predict a bottom, he’s investing now. I’ve never known him to be wrong.”

“Exhibit B: Hedge fund manager Cyrill Moulle-Berteaux writes in the Wall Street Journal that home sales are bottoming and that price declines will quickly slow. Soon, people will start buying again, owners underwater in mortgages will be more willing to tough it out, and mortgage-backed securities will stabilize.”

“Exhibit C: A friend who runs a homebuilder in foreclosure-heavy Stockton says appraisers are using foreclosures as comps, driving down prices. This is forcing him to match those prices or risk losing loans for his buyers because his new homes are too ‘expensive.’ The race to the bottom is picking up speed.”

Exhibit C is evidence for continued plummeting. Exhibits A and B are not evidence for anything.

Comment by lmg
2008-05-07 19:46:42

Jane Wells, not an “expert” on anything.

Well, this is one of the few times that a CNBC talking head has said anything that I can get behind.

Actually, I thought it was going to be one of Dennis Neale’s comments… now if that was one of his utterances, I could get behind that 1000%.

 
Comment by Awaiting Bubble Rubble
2008-05-07 21:56:55

I read the Wall Street Journal op-ed. What a joke! The guy’s projections are based entirely on the new housing sales, which we all know do not account for cancellations. His argument is also grounded on an assertion that housing is as afforable now as it was during the best years of the 1990s, which is simply wrong. New math strikes again!

 
 
Comment by SDGreg
2008-05-07 19:15:44

“The five-bedroom houses sit in upscale neighborhoods and were
rigged with state-of-the- art equipment.”

“They had probably well into the hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment in both homes, between the lights, the electrical, the water, the filtering and venting systems,” Decker said.

They could afford hundreds of thousands of dollars for equipment for “income generation”, weren’t making the electric payments, and still couldn’t make the housing payments?

At the point you’re on the verge of foreclosure, why wouldn’t you at least “strip” the house of anything that might land you in prison?

Comment by Mole Man
2008-05-07 20:16:46

Lots of people turn to criminal activity because they are not too bright and want fast money. The equipment used is often cheap or even free if picked up used. Often underlings are in charge of all the actual work. Confiscation of property is common, so those doing it are usually buying fraudulently or renting. Times are tough, cannabis is a leading cash crop, and cultivation has been driven indoors, so the bubble works with other market forces to lead us here.

Comment by SteveH
2008-05-07 21:42:17

I’ve known (years ago) people who were growing indoors. The published bust numbers ($4.5 million) are absolute, pure bullshi*. These numbers are so exaggerated it only takes a few minutes with a calculator to see they are 100x reality. If you could fit 200 plants in a basement, that means each plant is worth $2250. If each plant (not just the buds) weights two pounds dried (unlikely), they are selling dope for $11250/pound or $700/oz. This is the whole plant, stems, trunk, etc. No way. Makes a good story for a bust, though.

Comment by SteveH
2008-05-07 21:47:11

Should have been $22500 each.

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Comment by joeyinCalif
2008-05-07 20:23:23

Why does a guy who’s hauling 10 keys of coke get stopped for doing 85 mph.. why.. why… maybe ’cause they got whacked with a stupid-stick… or inherited the numbskull-gene?

 
 
Comment by WhatOnceWas
2008-05-07 20:12:08

Re:Dennis Neale’s comments…He makes Kudlow look like a died-in-the-wool bear. Always manages to find that one morsel he can spin positive,and if you get a contrarian view…” well, well,we are outta time,commercial break…

Comment by lmg
2008-05-07 21:34:34

I’ve often wondered how someone like Dennis Neale, or the likes of Larry “The U.S. Economy: the Greatest Story Never Told” Kudlow got their gigs.

The closest I can figure out is that the Kudlow’s and Neale’s give voice to the opinions of GE CEO’s and Board Chairman like Jack Welch or Jeffrey Immelt. Listening to them is almost like having a pipeline to God himself…although, you would think that the Almighty might do a better job in propping out His share price!

 
 
Comment by Karen
2008-05-08 10:07:50

The race to the bottom is picking up speed? I look at new listing every day on Movoto in the Sac area. Every day something new comes up and I say, “They want half a million for that?!! And they think they can get $700k for that? …. Oh and look more million dollar mansions have come up for sale. Don’t all those smart wealthy people know that it’s a bad time to sell, that the market is hitting bottom and it’s up up up from here??” Every week there are several mansions (many built in the last 3-4 years) that go up for sale.

I’ve been keeping an eye on a number of homes that I think look interesting. When a house is no longer listed, I check zillow for sales, but most have no recent sales which makes me think the sellers have just taken them off the market. Or they’ve relisted to hide the fact that their homes have been on the market for so long.

 
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