The Bottom Has Yet To Come
The Rocky Mountain News reports from Colorado. “The median price of a single- family home closed in April slid by 10.2 percent from a year earlier in the Denver area, according to reports released Wednesday. The average price of a single- family home dropped to $267,259, a 17.13 percent plunge from $322,510 in April 2007. There were 26,171 unsold homes on the market, 2.5 percent more than the 25,516 homes for sale in April 2007. That equates to slightly more than a seven-month supply of unsold homes, according to broker Jack O’Connor.”
“Independent broker Gary Bauer blamed the record foreclosures in the metro area for dragging down the overall market. ‘I would still say it is a buyer’s market,’ Bauer said.”
“The foreclosure rate in Denver rose to 5.9 percent in 2007 from 0.8 percent in 2000, a 637.5 percent increase, according to a study. The 81-page report by the Denver Office of Economic Development also found that on average, 6.6 percent of loans originated annually in Denver become delinquent and enter the foreclosure process within five years.”
“The report also found that the age of loans going into foreclosure has declined to 2.5 years in 2005 from 7.5 years in 1994.”
The Denver Post from Colorado. “In an attempt to create bidding wars, banks are giving real-estate agents permission to list foreclosed homes at less than market value.”
“‘The mentality of my clients is everybody’s shopping for a deal,’ said Jon Terry, broker in Golden. ‘There’s a perception that if they buy a bank-owned property or a short sale, they’re going to get a deal.’”
“‘The biggest fear is when people can’t afford to buy homes, period, so they pull out of the marketplace and it drives all the under-contract numbers and sold prices down,’ said Mike Cox, a broker who compiles a monthly report based on statistics from the MLS.”
From KTAR.com in Arizona. “In just eight years, the city of Maricopa, Ariz., sprang from the desert almost spontaneously. Maricopa was built so quickly that it does not have a hospital or a movie theater. The only restaurants are chains such as Taco Bell and Panda Express.”
“Still, this was the place where young people and first-timers could live the dream of owning a home. But, today, with many front yards overgrown by weeds, decorated with ‘Short Sale’ and ‘Bank Owned’ real estate signs, Maricopa has been described by some real estate analysts as the poster child for excess in the housing market.”
“Back in 2005, ‘If I listed a home, I would have two or three offers on it within the same day,’ real estate broker Susan Abdallah said.”
“But on a recent day she showed a home, which originally sold for $225,000, that had been re-possessed by the bank. After reducing the price to $105,000, she still had no offers and was preparing to put the house up for auction. Abdallah has 60 bank-owned properties to sell.”
“As many as one in 10 houses in Maricopa are for sale, even while new houses continue to be built. Homeowners, banks and builders all are competing to sell at ever-lower prices.”
“‘I think that was part of the mistake that the builders made, was that they allowed investors to come in and buy,’ Abdullah said. ‘Allowed them to buy tracts of homes, you know, five, six, 10 houses, and they bought them on speculation.’”
“Mayor Kelly Anderson said, ‘You had builders and other development people that could not get permits fast enough. They wanted a permit turned around in 12 hours, because they couldn’t sell the home fast enough. They had people lined up 100 deep on a Sunday morning for a lottery ticket.’”
“By early 2004, the median re-sale price of a house was about $150,000. Two years later it was nearly $260,000. Then the mortgage crisis hit, and by the end of 2007 that re-sale price had plummeted to just more than $197,000, and brand new houses were even less — $180,000.”
“Jay Butler, who teaches real estate at Arizona State University, said of the builders, ‘They really weren’t building homes. They were building mortgages that they could put into mortgage-backed securities in order to sell them to investors in China and France.’”
“Stuck in the middle are families like Brad and Sarah Milnes and their infant daughter Hannah. They recently bought a new house in Phoenix, but they have been unable to sell their home in Maricopa. And Brad, who used to sell houses here in the days when they sold themselves, has been laid off for lack of business.”
“‘We don’t want to give this house back for a hundred thousand less than we paid for it,’ Milnes said, but plenty of people have done just that. He has seen former customers and neighbors just disappear.”
The Tucson Citizen from Arizona. “Foreclosures in Tucson are increasing dramatically. In 2007 there were 4,471 foreclosure filings in Pima County, according to RealtyTrac. An analysis of RealtyTrac data shows filings increased from 322 in the fourth quarter of 2006 to nearly 1,700 in the last quarter of 2007, an increase of nearly 430 percent. The majority of the 2007 filings came during the second half of the year.”
“Real estate experts point out that the decline in the housing market means prices are correcting from the overinflated values from the housing boom a few years ago. The median home price dropped from $280,000 in January 2006 to $244,000 in late April of this year.”
“Federal Reserve Bank data show that nearly 70 percent of the subprime loans issued in Pima County are adjustable rate mortgages. Nearly half of the borrowers will see their interest rates reset in the next 12 months.”
“According to the data, nearly 60 percent of the subprime loans were taken out by borrowers who were capitalizing on their home’s equity and walking away with cash in their pocket. That cash is now gone, and for many, so is their house.”
“Richard Elías, chairman of the Pima County Board of Supervisors, says foreclosures will have a large impact on the local economy, which is structured around new homes and population growth.”
“‘There’s not really manufacturing in this community. There’s not really other kinds of industry jobs that are out there for people,’ he said. ‘Instead, growth is what funnels our economy in large part, so when growth gets damaged by a lack of investment in housing or something like the foreclosure crisis that we’re facing, our economy is hurting.’”
“‘Neighborhood issues become very tough when there is a number of vacant and abandoned homes in a community,’ Elías said. ‘There are so many deleterious effects to having abandoned homes in neighborhoods, particularly in the toughest parts of town.’”
The Arizona Republic. “Thirty-five new townhouses near the University of Phoenix Stadium will be auctioned off next month as builders continue to use auctions to figure out what buyers are willing to pay. Trammell Crow Residential of Scottsdale has scheduled an auction June 7 to sell the last condos in the Quarter development in Glendale.”
“When the company began selling the condos in 2006, all 171 units sold out within eight months. But 35 sales fell through for various reasons, such as inability to get financing or buyers backing out, said Bruce Hart, senior managing director of Trammell Crow Residential.”
“‘We’re not waiting for a floor in the market. This is a process to determine the market value. We’re letting the market set the value,’ Hart said. ‘We hope we’re near the bottom and we hope it will turn around. We think the bottom has yet to come for most townhouses and condos.’”
“The 32 two-bedroom units start at $195,000 and range from about 1,439 to 1,716 square feet. Prices for the three three-bedroom units will start at $265,000. Previous asking prices have been up to $485,321 for two-bedroom units and $552,520 for the three-bedroom units.”
“Jon Gollinger, a principal with the company that will conduct the auction, said prices are being set very low because buyers are afraid of paying too much. ‘Really it (auction) is born out of this stalemate or paralysis that’s occurred in the marketplace in general,’ he said.”
The Review Journal from Nevada. “For the first time since September 2005, sales of single-family homes in Las Vegas rose from the same month of the previous year, the Greater Las Vegas Association of Realtors reported Tuesday.”
“Home sales jumped to 1,794 in April, up nearly 30 percent from April 2007 and the fourth consecutive monthly increase. The inventory of homes available for sale on the MLS has stabilized at 22,942, a 3.1 percent increase from a year ago.”
“The median price of a single-family home continued to decline in April, dropping 3 percent from March to $235,875, according to GLVAR statistics. The price is down 22.7 percent from a year ago.”
“As in past months, Patty Kelley, president of the local Realtors association, attributes the slight decline to the number of short sales and foreclosures selling for prices below market value. Properties owned by banks and other lenders still account for more than half of all homes sold each month, she said.”
“Kelley said homes are coming onto the market priced much lower than in the past. She’s listing a home in Queensridge for around $300,000 that sold for $525,000 in 2005.”
“The Jack Nicklaus-signature golf course at Coyote Springs is open for public play, but the first model homes have been pushed back to September 2009, an executive for the master-planned community’s primary home builder said.”
“Residential building has been delayed 18 months and home prices have yet to be determined, said Klif Andrews, division president of Pardee Homes.”
“‘It’s partly the market — we’re not in a rush to get in the market today — and it’s partly slow construction activity,’ he said. ‘It was difficult to complete some of the things we had to complete.’”
“‘You’ve got to spend $30 million on wastewater treatment before you can hook up one toilet. That’s why houses will always appreciate because it’s difficult and expensive to build in outlying areas,’ he said.”
“The 40,000-acre Coyote Springs development is about 60 miles north of Las Vegas, straddling Clark and Lincoln counties on U.S. Highway 93. It’s planned for 159,000 homes on 20,000 acres with 12,000 acres set aside for a nature preserve, parks and trails.”
“Pardee intends to sell homes at a ‘great value,’ but not 40 percent less than Las Vegas prices, Andrews said. ‘Coyote Springs is more about the community, not how cheap we can sell houses,’ he said.”
“Reno attorney and political lobbyist Harvey Whittemore purchased the Coyote Springs land for $15 million in 1996. Because his cost basis is so small on the land, Whittemore could sit on the project for a while without any serious repercussions, housing analyst Dennis Smith said.”
“‘He can just use the golf course as a way to advertise the community, waiting until demand improves,’ Smith said.”
The Las Vegas Sun from Nevada. “The economy, as you know, is off a couple of ticks. First-quarter room occupancy is down 1 percentage point, Boyd Gaming’s Las Vegas revenue is down 5 percent or 6 percent, MGM Mirage’s profit is down a whopping 30 percent, and Stacy Taylor’s income is down 40 percent.”
“Taylor might be considered a barometer of the Las Vegas economy, as part of the 10 percent of the Las Vegas labor force that earns tip income. She’s a server at a tony Strip steakhouse that relies on convention goers. She’s seen her tips, which account for all of her take-home pay, drop precipitously because even though most people are tipping the same percentages, they’re not spending as much on food and booze.”
“Taylor had counted on putting most of her tips in the bank to tide her and her family’s three children over through the lean summer months. ‘I have nothing to put away this year,’ Taylor says. ‘Picking up a second job might not be a bad idea, but I don’t know how I’ll manage to do it with three kids out of school for the summer.’”
“Versions of Taylor’s story are heard up and down the Strip and around town. At the Mirage, blackjack dealer Al Maurice says management is trying to spread the pain of fewer weekday gamblers by asking dealers to take extra days off — and sometimes forcing the issue.”
“At the current pace, a dealer might make $3,500 less this year than last. So far he’s made $600 less. It’s not good, but he doesn’t think it compares with the drop the casino is seeing. So he understands.”
“Farther up the boulevard at the Stratosphere, valet Mark Cohen is seeing fewer cars during the week — he blames gas prices — and says tips are down a bit, to boot. He points out that there are more Europeans in town, what with the strength of the euro against the dollar.”
“And Europeans don’t tip? ‘Well, you know,’ Cohen says, ‘I don’t want to say anything, you know, bad.’”
“Stop by Zodie’s on Tropicana Road and Tommy Wise says the traffic is about the same and, while the regulars are being good, strangers are tipping about 30 percent less. ‘My girlfriend is a waitress and she says business is off 30 percent there, too. She says it’s the worst it’s ever been and she’s been here 12 years.’”
“Julianna Nagy, who works at Kiss’s Salon & Spa on Tropicana Avenue, and Liz Guinan, who works at Gianna Christine Salon, Spa & Wellness in the District at Green Valley Ranch, say business is down 30 percent. Their analysis: Customers are putting off haircuts an extra couple of weeks and women are coloring their hair at home.”
“‘The decent people, the average people, the people who make a good living and do right, they’re still coming,’ Nagy says. ‘The housing (problem), that is what is really hurting us. The people who were buying big houses with lots of money, they don’t come.’”
‘Home sales jumped to 1,794 in April, up nearly 30 percent from April 2007 and the fourth consecutive monthly increase. Properties owned by banks and other lenders still account for more than half of all homes sold each month, she said. Kelley’s listing a home in Queensridge for around $300,000 that sold for $525,000 in 2005.’
Ha ha. Sure you have an increase in sales, mostly REOs, driving prices down. The sales in Stockton California are actually higher than 2006, but 75% are foreclosures and prices are down 50%. Good luck Vegas!
As for Arizona, ‘There’s not really manufacturing in this community. There’s not really other kinds of industry jobs that are out there for people,’ he said. ‘Instead, growth is what funnels our economy in large part, so when growth gets damaged by a lack of investment in housing or something like the foreclosure crisis that we’re facing, our economy is hurting’
Yep, nothing but houses and the economy around them. So when you put up 7 years of demand in 2, we might have a bit of a problem.
And where are those bubble doubters in Denver? What is this, the 3rd or 4th straight year of record foreclosures and falling prices?
Denver’s hosed, big time. It’s not the first time, Denver’s always been a boom and bust town.
And Vegas? Good riddance. The epitome of American self-indulgence. The Coyote Springs development reminds me of one near Montrose, Colorado, that was all the buzz two years ago and somehow silently disappeared into the cosmos.
speaking of vegas, we were there last weekend and the casinos were empty but the pools were packed. i cannot figure out why anyone would go there to lay buy a swimmimg pool? and all those billboards i saw 6 months ago have changed back to casinos advertizing. still a few of the big builders using the billboards though. and a least two huge condo towers still being built, go figure.
Amen on Vegas.
People and other animals that need lots of water shouldn’t live in large numbers in places with very little water.
How hard is that to figure out?
People and other animals that need lots of water shouldn’t live in large numbers in places with very little water.
How hard is that to figure out?
Apparently quite hard.
Los Angeles would be a desert if not for water stolen from Northern California and Colorado. Dubai is currently turning itself into a gigantic resort in the Middle East–including several artificial islands. Most of the modern resort hotels in Hawaii are on the dry/desert side of each island, with water piped in from miles away.
The bottom line is that many people like a hot dry climate and will do what it takes to live there.
Yes, “everyone” wants to live the Baywatch lifestyle…and they will speculate that others want to do the same.
Is it a coincidence that (with a few exceptions) the housing markets with the most foreclosures are in FL, CA, AZ, and NV?
Many of those people are really really pale skinned.
What does that tell you?
What would you say about people and animals who need warm temperatures living in areas with very little in the way of naturally occuring warm temperatures, like Alaska or Maine?
Isn’t the need to artificially import a natural resource to create heat just as significant in that respect? Without the global energy distribution system those areas would be uninhabitable by people year round.
At least water just flows downhill and can be directed where you need it. I’m not saying that the total demand on water cannot get out of hand compared to the supply, and maybe that is something to worry about in some areas.
All in all, the two major desert cities can be the lowest total energy use places to live in this country, outside of some coastal regions and Hawaii.
In AZ I can go 8 months of the year with no artificial air temperature changes needed inside my house, and only have to use enough energy to change the air temperature by 5 to 30 degrees during the hottest parts of the summer.
In most of the midwest and northeast, they need to raise the temperature in their houses by as much as 70+ degrees, for as long as 6 months of the year. That is much greater total energy use. Not to mention that at the lower latitude my need for electric light is significantly less, due to longer hours of sunlight.
I can go for months with no running water or electricity, at any time of the year.
Imaging New York City with no running water or energy supply in January.
I think you are repeating a lot of unfounded stereotypes.
Heat is a commodity needed for half the year (at the most) in the places you mentioned. The populations needing more than 3 months of heat are much smaller than in the Sunbelt. Water is needed all year round, especially in the Sunbelt where half (or more) of the US population lives. It is an irreplaceable limited resource that is dwindling and needs to be rationed. Heat sources are more diverse and are becoming much more economically feasible now that oil prices are skyrocketing.
Besides, having grown up in the sunbelt, I can say without hesitation that the amount of money spent on air conditioning in the Sunbelt in the Summer is more than the amount of money spent on heat in the Cold States in the Winter, possibly thanks to global warming and good insulation. Insulation does very little to reduce air-conditioning bills.
If you think water is less important than heat for urban growth, look at the relative cost of urban growth in Canada vs. Australia.
How can water be an irreplaceable source? Doesn’t it all end up in the ocean? Aren’t the oceans rising due to the melting of the arctic ice?
Insulation does quite a bit in reducing air-conditioning bills. Heck, try opening your windows in August and you can easily see how well a single pane of very thin glass does at keeping the heat out. You would be amazed at the difference in your electric bill you make by just wrapping your air conditioning ducts with R-8 insulation.
Just think of it this way - where in the North you use insulation to keep the heat in and the cold out, in the South you use insulation to keep the cold in and the heat out. It all works the same way.
“Insulation does very little to reduce air-conditioning bills”
“I can say without hesitation that the amount of money spent on air conditioning in the Sunbelt in the Summer is more than the amount of money spent on heat in the Cold States in the Winter”
???????????
Basic heat transfer my friend. Trust me, insulation matters. No wonder it cost you so much.
And who said anything about money - I’m talking about energy - kilowatts, BTUs. Do you think the cost of a kWh is going anywhere but up? What do you think the “diverse” sources of heat really are? Oil, coal, nuclear, natural gas, hydroelectric, wind, solar, biomass, …?
Is NYC better positioned for these things than Phoenix? Is it windier and sunnier in NYC than the desert? Is NYC closer to Hoover dam than Phoenix? Does NYC have the country’s largest nuclear plant, Palo Verde, 50 miles outside the city?
Anyway, we’ll see what the skyrocketing costs of energy and relative scarcity of water do to the major cities in this country.
One last thing:
“possibly thanks to global warming”
You do realize that global temperature monitoring has shown that the earth has cooled by 1 degree C since 1998, and no warming is expected through at least 2015, due to reduced solar cycles? If you’re going to use scientific arguments, keep up with the data.
In most of the midwest and northeast, they need to raise the temperature in their houses by as much as 70+ degrees, for as long as 6 months of the year.
Where is this the case?
On Lake Erie shores ( only Canadians north of us) I keep the stat at 64 degrees F all winter; The average daily temperature for the coldest month is like 27 degrees. This calculates out to a 37 degree heat requirement. Some people set the temp lower, some higher. I doubt if Cariboo Maine has a 70 degree difference.
aimeejd,
Here is the 2006 climate summary for Chicago. The average temperature was near or under 40 F for 5 months of the year, with a low point of -7 on Feb 18. That requires as much as +70 degrees of heat to be comfortable.
http://www.crh.noaa.gov/lot/?n=2006_ord_summary
Go further north and it just gets worse.
“Basic heat transfer my friend. Trust me, insulation matters. No wonder it cost you so much.
I didn’t say it didn’t matter. It doesn’t matter as much to save on air conditioning bills. Look up “R value” on Google and tell me how many people in the Sunbelt even know what it is and are willing to pay for it when evaluating energy efficiency in their homes?
“And who said anything about money…”
Well, I am not in the lending industry, so possibly I’m not as wealthy as you, but cost of living actually matters when it comes to judging quality of life for most people.
Anyway, we’ll see what the skyrocketing costs of energy and relative scarcity of water do to the major cities in this country.
Water is subsidized far more than energy. NYC doesn’t have to compete with Las Vegas, LA, San Diego, SLC, Denver, and Northern CA for water, which for this hydrologic cycle is drying up at a rate faster than all of recorded history (I’m not sure you follow the science on this).
“If you’re going to use scientific arguments, keep up with the data.”
I do follow the science, and you are quoting a minority opinion. Why don’t you tell us whom you are quoting? I am quoting the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC), not the Bush Administration.
BUt nothing in that data indicates you need to keep your thermostat at 70+ for 6 months of the year. I’m from Missouri and now live in NJ, and I have never, and won’t be doing that. After all, large percentages of the population lived in these places before the advent of HVAC, and somehow managed to not only survive, but to build communities that functioning and liveable to this day.
I am not in the lending industry, so possibly I’m not as wealthy as you
I read your handle as “az lender” and not “az owner”…sorry
We grow firewood.
” you are quoting a minority opinion”
NSO - I’m not quoting any “opinion”, I’m talking about real hard data from satellites and thermometers. That embarassing hard data that the alarmists can’t do anything about, except maybe try to surpress.
The guys from the UNFCCCFCNFNCN or whatever it was will make sure that their “opinion” about global warming always ensures them a secure and steady job, you can count on that.
As the mortgage brokers were saying in 2005 and the global warmists are saying now - “There’s a sucker born every minute”.
Don’t tell us you wasted your tax refund by buying carbon credis from Al Gore?!?
Standard metric has always been “heating degree days,” namely the sum of average daily temperatures subtracted from 65. Around 1000 HDD per month is typical in mid-winter in northern U.S.
az_owner:
You seem very well versed on all the Republican Party talking points. Just because President Bush and Exxon say “there is no global warming” doesn’t make it true.
The last time Shrub and Big Oil went against world opinion, it was about WMD in Iraq, and that didn’t turn out so well, did it?
Open your mind.
To be upfront, I don’t follow the atmospheric science.
I have,however, sat in on intro level lectures about the models they use to calculate global warming. More importantly I’ve also done some collecting of geologic/atmospheric type data. Again, at the undergraduate level but it was an enlightening process.
Collecting data is itself a subjective process. I can’t tell you how many decisions I had to make instantly in the field about data. The real world presents many grey areas in the collection process.
Add to data uncertainty, the models that are being used to “predict” the future are hideously complex. A few tweaked variables could make a very different outcome.
Add to that problem that we have only about 100 years of recorded atmospheric data (and not from all parts of the world) and must interpret the rest from glaciers (which aren’t so old either) or the rock record.
From the outside, it certainly looks more like UN scientists are trying to keep their jobs than working on “real science”. A real scientist would tell you to check back in a few thousand years - we might have enough data by then to make a prediction.
On the flip side, we are emitting tons of gases that insulate the earth. Their general warming effect is fact of chemistry. How much actual impact they have, or even if it’s negative is up for much more serious debate.
For instance, is it really bad for the polar ice caps to melt? Life is diverse and dense at the tropics - not so much at the ice caps. Do we want all that water locked up as ice? Ice is water trapped outside of the “water cycle”. Fresh water in the form of ice supports no life.
Taken on the whole, global warming might be the best darn thing to happen to the planet. Not so much for us, but for Earth maybe.
Rule #1: You can always put more clothes on, you can only take so many off.
Check out these pictures
“Imagining the Next Great Ghosttown”
http://www.roamingphotos.com/us/nv/coyotesprings/
The only restaurants are chains such as Taco Bell and Panda Express.”
I get paid to go to Taco Bell. I could get paid to go to Panda Express. What is this about fine dining and a night out? Sounds like work to me.
“Stuck in the middle are families like Brad and Sarah Milnes and their infant daughter Hannah. They recently bought a new house in Phoenix, but they have been unable to sell their home in Maricopa. And Brad, who used to sell houses here in the days when they sold themselves, has been laid off for lack of business.”
Yet another RE agent sob story. If we are going to bail homeowners out, could we at least exclude anyone who has worked in the RE industry in the last five years? They made their bed, let’em lie in it.
How do get a RE whore off your front porch? Pay them for the pizza.
LOL.
I especially despise families who do the whole buy before you sell your old home thing. That’s totally moronic, yet TONS of people do exactly that because lord have mercy if they had to rent first… it’s all about the kids! Think of the children!
Jetson I hope you don`t despise me, because I did this a few years ago and will never do it again. lol. When the buyer of the first house knows you have moved in your second house it changes things, a little/lot. But don`t worry I did not do if for the children ( we have none ) I did for my lazy a$$. lol
Lane
Isn’t Reality wonderful!
Speaking of sob stories (and not much sympathy for them), check out the comments that follow the Tucson Citizen story in Ben’s post.
“The 40,000-acre Coyote Springs development is about 60 miles north of Las Vegas, straddling Clark and Lincoln counties on U.S. Highway 93. It’s planned for 159,000 homes…”
WTF? I can’t imagine there will be many jobs or industry in the area except the Nevada Test Site. So who is going to commute 60 miles each way to Vegas? Is retirement out in the baking-hot desert over an hour away from city amenities really that appealing to that many people?
“Is retirement out in the baking-hot desert over an hour away from city amenities really that appealing to that many people?”
Not to mention the fact that it would be a mighty long wait for an ambulance to come from a LV hospital to get you when you’re dying from a heart attack!
I would say ‘dead from that heart attack’.. Ambulance. Too late.
60 miles? Think of the gas.
Well “I” happen to think it’s a pretty good idea! I don’t think a lot of wives need to know their husband could be checking out the strip clubs on his way back from racketball? Or dumping their SS check into a slot machine? Although they’ll probably have that stuff up there too!
I happen to love Beatty, Goldfield, Tonopah and even Hawthorne NV. ( Then again I’m an Oregonian and it was like 48 degrees and drizzling when I just walked the dog! )
I like Beatty too, but Beatty isn’t planned for 159,000 homes.
kpom,
Well… agreed, and it looks like Harvey will playing golf by himself for some time to come! Truthfully though most of us couldn’t talk our wives into living in Beatty etc. Not enough shopping, dining etc. So I will be curious to see how this will play out. My wife’s cousin lives by McCarran and after a long drive you still have to deal w/ traffic. This would knock like 3 hours off the trip.
Are Tonapah/Hawthorne etc still pretty much deserted? Those places sound pretty good to me right now too. How about Pioche?
NotInMontana,
On my last trip through Hawthorne I’m pleased to inform that is alive and well! They shrugged off the threat of a base closure during the latest round of base closings and are good until like 2012? They also have have a flooring supplier moving into the area and recreation at Walker Lake looks good. It’s almost as if time has passed Hawthorne by and remarkably, stop signs mean STOP! From all the years of relying on the military for their very existence the town is understandably “tame”. The other thing is that unlike nearly all of the west coast there are basically NO illegals working in the interior. True it does take another minute or two to get your lunch or a beer but IMHO it’s worth it. I think you’d dig it!
“‘You’ve got to spend $30 million on wastewater treatment before you can hook up one toilet. That’s why houses will always appreciate because it’s difficult and expensive to build in outlying areas,’ he said.”
huh? Aren’t those reasons why those houses might not appreciate or appreciate less?
SDGreg,
According to the article they have ample ground water supplies so it will be independent of Vegas but I definitely get your point. I just can’t help but think that anyone that somehow found themselves SIXTY miles north of Vegas was on a really, really bad peyote trip?
I kind of hate to say this but this sounds a lot like what I’ve been looking for? Like I say I love Hawthorne but it’s a much higher elevation and can get real cold. This would be much closer than Palm Springs and from a tax standpoint, much more beneficial.
Thanks for the clarification. The comment makes more sense in the context of access to scarce water resources.
“…just wait until he sees those bats.”
This guy should not be in business. What a stupid comment.
That place is an entire city.. it was dreamed up in the 1990s and has huge political and money support. The project is so big that it’s development time encompasses an entire real estate boom and bust. It is not a part of the bubble.
Joey,
I lost a post there but you’re exactly right. The Reno atty. kept his powder dry and is wisely sitting on the sidelines until market conditions improve. He originally bought the land in 1996 so this has been in the works for some time. Also as you imply, the State of Nevada has been mounting an active campaign to spread a little bit of wealth around the balance of the state and outside of Vegas. I think the guy is going about it sensibly. What’s the big deal here?
To give people some idea of the political clout behind that new “master planned community”, NV Senator Harry Reid’s son is (or at least was as of 2006) Whittemore’s personal lawyer..
joey,
Don’t get me wrong, no one has been more bearish on the “build it and they will come” business model than me! There’s an old saying that “he who develops last, develops best” and I think it’s applicable here. They’ve been able to see where all the boom believers fell on their sword and can take corrective action. They’ve seen that c-l-e-a-r-l-y most retirees aren’t nearly as affluent as other developers had assumed! They can’t sustain monster payments and rely on their “3rd income”. That’s a great way to get the homes back to the lender. The guy basically tipped his hand by saying… (wink) they ARE going to be 40% cheaper than LV! This is the kind of ret. community the country needs. Not $1.5 mil. palaces in Henderson.
There are actually 737’s that flys there from McCarran every day. They leave from the Janet terminal ( hence the call sign JANET ). Must be an interesting commute to say the least.
“He points out that there are more Europeans in town, what with the strength of the euro against the dollar…And Europeans don’t tip? ‘Well, you know,’ Cohen says, ‘I don’t want to say anything, you know, bad.’”
They’re here to save the Housing market! Now is a great time to buy Yankee Real Estate! Cheap American crapboxes now Half Off!
Payback for the Marshall Plan…?
What kind of Europeans - Russians maybe? They might like a sunny place, after all.
I was actually referring to anyone spending Euros. I think part of Bernanke’s bailout plan is to have as many Europeans as possible come over and buy up discounted homes with discounted money. The property taxes here are a bargain compared to most of Europe, and they aren’t subjected to income taxes or sales tax on housing purchases.
This is going to be quite the year for America to get examined under the microscope, by foreigners…
Today, I met people from Australia, Austria, France, Germany & Netherlands.
$4 gas(as opposed to $9 back home), cheap car rentals, cheap food & rooms, all thanks to Uncle $am’s weakening condition…
totally ignoring the fact that their own housing markets are tanking?
You, not to mention, what are they going to do with the properties if they buy them? I’ve already got my rental.
“You” should be “Yup.”
If we could just stop the ICE’s heavy-handed tactics in the War on Tourism, treating every visitor to this country with hostility and suspicion as if they were a potential terrorist. This is a real issue for a large number of visitors to this country, and you can’t assume that we’re so wonderful and special that they’ll keep coming when they are treated like crap at the airport. Other Western countries manage to secure their borders without turning thuggish.
Innovest published their foreclosure statistics for San Diego in April, they hit an all-time high. Good news for those of us who were worried about the dropoff in February and March. Cheers
Oh yeah, NOD’s also hit all-time record at 3,601. Yowsa
But wait, foreclosures can’t possibly be skyrocketing in Tuscon?! THat is a university town and everyone knows that academics are fiscally conservative, employment is steady, and everyone wants to retire to warm weather university towns for the culture. We’ll never have foreclosures in Tuscon. We’ll never have foreclosures in any university town as they are all special and unique.
(sarcasm off)
“And Europeans don’t tip? ‘Well, you know,’ Cohen says, ‘I don’t want to say anything, you know, bad.’”
Well, see, that’s because Europeans don’t just automatically tip people who think they’re entitled to it. They tip for good service, which, last time I was in Vegas, was a bit tough to come by. It’s there, of course, but it’s spotty.
It’s also a cultural thing. “Service” is built-in to the bill in most of Europe, so the tipping culture is entirely different.
Very true. And those times I was in Europe, an 8% tip was considered extraordinary. As you said, good service was part of the bill. Tipping was for super-extraordinary service, and was minimal at that.
In fact, I had an unbelievable lunch at a winery one day. I gave the young waitress a 10% tip. She was so excited, that she secured some postcards from the place and presented them to me. (I was dining with my wife, so no comments please)
You’re no fun.
True, but many Europeans also understand that things are different here culturally, so I’m not sure how large a part of the issue that is.
“”Service” is built in to the bill”
You mean they actually pay service workers a wage that allows them to eat and stuff…wow…who thought of that?
“”Service” is built in to the bill
That must be at Hooters. My friends niece works in one in Vegas and he said she pulled in 80k last year
Waiters are paid decent wages and have health coverage in Europe.
Tipping is mostly not done in Australia & New Zealand, although the ubiquitous tip jar is starting to show up next to cash registers.
Cracks me up. People will lay down thousands at the tables, use the amenities and treat workers like servants, then they balk at tipping a hard working valet 5 bucks to park the car. What a bunch of A..holes.
“‘You’ve got to spend $30 million on wastewater treatment before you can hook up one toilet. That’s why houses will always appreciate because it’s difficult and expensive to build in outlying areas,’ he said.”
Wrong. A good septic system will only cost about $20k or so (I’m guessing). People don’t have to live in your $30-million-sewer-system community.
Who’s the idiot who pre-planned a community of 179,000 homes? And then determined that all the utilities had to be in place before the first home could be built? That is absolutely insane, and to me shows how the hallmark of this bubble is how complete fools were able to get their hands on tons of money. Well - get their hands on debt anyhow.
Can they repurpose the infrastructure investments into something useful? Like a nuclear power plant?
179,000 houses x 2.8 people/house = 500,000 residents!
Well let’s be a little… fair here? The Reno atty. purchased the land ( fairly cheaply? ) well prior to the boom, 1996. Evidently he realized that as fantasmagorical as this last boom was, it was still too early to reach a full hour north of Vegas. He further displays restraint and prudence by putting the first homes off until at least 2009 where he openly admits they will be considerably cheaper than LV itself.
What’s the big?
Wrong. A good septic system will only cost about $20k or so (I’m guessing). People don’t have to live in your $30-million-sewer-system community.
Actually, you’re wrong about the septic tank.
My brother owns an engineering company in Englewood.
He designs water/wastewater systems. In all the Rocky Mountain areas, it is REQUIRED BY LAW to have a waste-water treatment plant regardless of the size of the community. There are severe issues with contaminating the ground-water in them thar hills.
I’m really not qualified to render an opinion where this whole water use issue is involved..? What I DO admire about the whole project is that it pokes huge holes in the theory that:
1. ALL retiring boomers are filthy rich (but you have to get to their wallet first) by soaking them for a huge house they don’t really need.
2. Money is no object, these people want “the best”
3. Make sure the HOA’s are at nose bleed prices
There just wasn’t anything being built in between McMansion and repo’d single wide in Morongo Valley to choose from. Chrissakes even Pahrump went “upscale”. There weren’t any sensible choices, period.
“The Las Vegas Sun from Nevada. “The economy, as you know, is off a couple of ticks. First-quarter room occupancy is down 1 percentage point, Boyd Gaming’s Las Vegas revenue is down 5 percent or 6 percent, MGM Mirage’s profit is down a whopping 30 percent….”
No suprise here- over the last decade, Vegas has moved towards specializing sucking heloc and associated bubble money from the pockets of visitors. Everything from table minimums to buffet prices is way up. Yes, you could say Vegas has improved over the years, but they need to find their roots again since they can’t depend on housing to fuel their growth anymore.
Vegas’ roots are as an isolated oasis of drunkenness, careless spending, whoring, graft and various other flavors of debauchery. While i, for one, would like to see it return to those good old days, the chances are slim, imo
This is why I wouldn’t mind living just outside LV. Even in your hotel room you’re getting hit up for “offers” and I mean ALL kinds of offers! I just hate all the bottle service soak you down BS. Dude, I’m drunk. Do I LOOK like I give a rip!?
Everything centers around spending and spending and spending. No thanks, I’m just here for the sun and NV residency!
““In an attempt to create bidding wars, banks are giving real-estate agents permission to list foreclosed homes at less than market value.””
Yes- a splendid idea. Shake em’ all up like ants… see if they’ll outbid themselves like the good ole’ days.
I’ve actually seen that happen as recently as last week…suspiciously for formerly >$500K homes that are now priced under FNM conforming loan limits. Is this the fabled “pent up demand” suggested by the NAR and MSM?
“‘There’s not really manufacturing in this community. There’s not really other kinds of industry jobs that are out there for people,’ he said. ‘Instead, growth is what funnels our economy in large part, so when growth gets damaged by a lack of investment in housing or something like the foreclosure crisis that we’re facing, our economy is hurting.’”
Sounds just like Boise- we have been growing like crazy over the years, but it’s been built on the housing bubble. The established employers like Albertsons, HP, Micron, etc. have been cutting jobs.
Sounds like most of the rocky mountain west, aside from energy development in a few spots.
“Richard Elías, chairman of the Pima County Board of Supervisors, says … the local economy … is structured around new homes and population growth.”
Sorry, you don’t have a local economy. You just described a bedroom community. Keep in mind that bedroom communities need an adjacent workshop to survive, and there are limits to how many bedrooms a workshop can support.
Elias is the supervisor for my district. He’s part of U.S. Rep. Raul Grijalva’s political machine.
And I make it a point to vote against both of them.
“‘You’ve got to spend $30 million on wastewater treatment before you can hook up one toilet. That’s why houses will always appreciate because it’s difficult and expensive to build in outlying areas,’ he said.”
Another “executive” that has no understanding of basic economics. It doesn’t matter how much it costs you to build your stupid house in an outlying area. What matters is what someone is willing to pay. Period.
That’s the market.
It will probably cost $30 Billion dollars to build a shack on the moon, but I doubt you could get anywhere near that for it.
These are the Captains of Industry? Masters of the Universe? What do they pay these guys?
Do these cptns of industry all belong to “yale/harvard”?
I am over joyed by the AZ news. My family and I are moving back this summer. I am not sure whether to rent and wait it out as I don’t want to flush my 30k down payment down the tubes.Is there a simple way to look up foreclosures in public records? The recorders office really only allows you to search by record #.
maybe just buy a decent generator and move in
Looking up foreclosures in public records? Don’t know of any way to do that directly. But you can still have fun with public records. (I sure do!)
Here in Tucson, you might want to give the County Assessor website a try. It will help you figure out which of your neighbors is behind on their property taxes. See:
http://www.dot.co.pima.az.us/gis/maps/landbase/parsrch.htm
Also, check out the legal notices in the Daily Territorial. All sorts of fun stuff like liens, trustee sales, and bankruptcies. Visit:
http://azbiz.com/daily_territorial/
More fun in the sun resources to be posted as I find them…
“‘The decent people, the average people, the people who make a good living and do right, they’re still coming,’ Nagy says.
Well thank god the undecent people propped up your business during a boom. Now I’m sure there is barely enough money for drugs and none to splurge on spa treatments. Nothing worse than having the strung over look.
And those no good ex-customers with their living paycheck to paycheck, and their friveless spending on food and such.
Oh and the People that spent alot of money on big houses. Didn’t they see there a mello-roos for Spa treatments at Kiss’s Salon & Spa. They are so behind on their required trips to the spa, we should be a lien on the house and see how those unkemp, no-good, oversized homedebtors like that.
–
The latest data for 2008Q1TD (full March transactions not yet available) Radar Logic show a very steady decline in PPSF of 35% and 30% Annual Rate for LV and Phoenix, respectivey.
Jas
“Julianna Nagy, who works at Kiss’s Salon & Spa on Tropicana Avenue, and Liz Guinan, who works at Gianna Christine Salon, Spa & Wellness in the District at Green Valley Ranch, say business is down 30 percent. Their analysis: Customers are putting off haircuts an extra couple of weeks and women are coloring their hair at home.”
I never have understood all that fiddling around with the keratin stuff. Lots of my girlfriends voluntarily handicap their hands with those bizarre little colored glued on bits, and for what? When they’re over to my place and trying to do something fiddly, tie a bow on a bouquet, wrap a present, make a dainty salad—they’ll sit there clawing vainly at some poor inoffensive object, trying to make it work whilst not maiming their expensive manicure. I try to be calm but I eventually am forced to leap up with a roar of wild impatience, grab whatever it is away and just tie the damn bow, or string the bead, or do whatever it is for them. And then that toying with the hair thing is almost as stupid. In my experience with men, which is a lot more varied and colorful than my mom or Sweet Baby Jeebus would like it to be, in my experience most men don’t even LIKE excruciatingly ornamented and tinkered-with tresses, all coiled and coiffed and starched and sprayed and stiff and fakey. They don’t like the crunchy effect, or when their fingers get stuck to your head, or else they fear they could put an eye out on an especially stiff curl right in the middle of a cuddle, and rightly so. These are valid concerns. So who is all this fiddley stuff being done for, anyway?
Everyone should do what I do: simply grow pretty colored pellicles out of your own head, and then cut it yourself after a few beers to loosen your scissor hand up and THEN go sit on the porch and listen to frogs and paint your toenails. That’s what I do, and I am just plain radiant. Plus, most important of all, I have more money left over for beer.
You are lucky, Olympiagal. It costs a lot of money for me to maintain that naturally radiant look. Because after one disaster, trying to cut my own bangs, and another (of Biblical proportions) trying to do my own color, I leave tress maintenance up to the professionals.
“That’s what I do, and I am just plain radiant. Plus, most important of all, I have more money left over for beer.”
You’re such a tease, Oly…..you set the bar way too high.
Hear here. ?? and the hair’s the least of it. All that time spent with the foundation and rouge and lip outliner and lipstick and all that stuff is just wasted as soon as you hit `em with the first pie. then they wanna get all angry, like it’s your fault.
I’m with you on having more money left over for beer. Priorities are important
So who is all this fiddley stuff being done for, anyway?
All the girls walked by dressed up for each other
-John Mellencamp
Van Morrison got there first.
Guys would be the first to complain if they didn’t. Who do you think armpits and legs get shaved for?
Oh jeez, Oly, that was a hoot! I can just picture some guy with his fingers stuck to his girlfriend’s head. And I think those long fake nails look so…well, fake. And hopelessly useless.
My mom had her first “professional” haircut long after her hair had gone gray. She always cut her own hair. She had thick and curly hair, plus it grew fast, rending any mistakes short term. I’ll never forget the look on her face when we brought a stylist in for her birthday. She didn’t want to insult us, but you could tell she was very uncomfortable - that was partly why we did it, just to see what she’d look like. When it was done, it looked just like when she cut it herself. I cut my own hair, but you can tell.
As a young lad of six or so, I remember my mom, grandmother and uncle TRYING to give me a haircut to save a dollar, but they did such a bad job that they had to immediately rush me to the barber for a hair repair. I recall looking in the mirror after the initial family cut attempt and wondering how I could show my head to my classmates in that condition without getting rightfully abused. After the barber visit my hair was quite short but at least it was the same length. I didn’t trust anyone without a barber certificate for the next 40 years. Now that I have only about 10 very short hairs remaining on my head, I allow the wife to attack them with the clippers on a regular basis; just too lazy to do the shave thing. Now I save about $250 a year on haircuts (of course balding had a lot to do with that
Once a few yrs ago, spouse and I were looking at a recliner,laz boy type, and decided it was way to expensive. I told him prices have gone up since he bought furniture in the 70s.
Then we priced the crappy built mass produced “lazboy type” chairs and they were around 300+
Well, then a couple of months later, I got my hair done by a friend who has an upscale salon.. the moral of this story, is get the prices UP FRONT, and from that point on, all I told my spouse is that I am/Was wearing the Recliner on my head.
Nuf said.
Now it is the onsale $2.50 color stuff and no nails. They break anyway, don’t they.
Falling knives everywhere……This home is shown on nextag to have been sold back in 1999 for $107K.I guess someone thought this was a “good deal” with others listed in the $200k range.Someone found thier “dream home”
I just shake my head as to why people are so stupid.This area doesnt exactly have alot of jobs to support all the inventory .The 2nd home or vacation home is out the window with high gas prices and tighter lending.
My guess is these homes are worth a little over $100K.
http://www.zillow.com/HomeDetails.htm?zprop=8348070
“Their analysis: Customers are putting off haircuts an extra couple of weeks and women are coloring their hair at home.”
damn I am realizing I am a cheap bastard….
- coupon clip religiously (the other day a cashier asked… “so, how much do I owe you? at the end of my coupon pile…)
- take my cans and bottles in for recycling $ (there is a place near my house)
- mow own lawn, no housekeeper (note though, my house is certainly messy and the lawn looks crappy)
- get my haircut infrequently cause I dont really like the time wasted or expense…
wife and I make 180k, work 5-6 days per week, often 10-12 hr days.
jb
we made 317 last year but I don’t feel rich. still have my ‘97 vw diesel, and renting since ‘00.
Try some simple Wahl Hair clippers once a week if you are like me and like your hair short, a 5 min buzzcut and I’m clean cut and just saved $16 at supercuts.
Don’t use the Harbor Freight hair clippers, the motors burn out after one or two haircuts…
I’m pretty sure that my husband and I have the highest household income of our apartment building (it’s a 4-plex) (which isn’t saying much). If it’s not, we’re only the 2nd down. We are the only ones who recycle cans for $$$. Everyone else is apparently rich enough to simply throw those cans away. Very odd.
Just like you, it’s me and the verymuch lessthanpoor folks turning in cans for $.
Use the coupon then for bread etc at the store that is authorized.
Fear & Loathing in Pavlovegas, a savage journey to the heart of the American Dream…
A couple of weeks ago we took a drive down the Vegas strip for the first time in 7 or 8 years, and this was on a Friday and traffic was snarled, and I felt like I was that silver ball, being battered around by Vegas’s visual flippers, in a mobile game of pinball.
TILT
AIG reports HUGE loss. I guess the credit crisis isn’t behind us.
Guess what their biggest loss is from? Derivatives! a.k.a Credit Default Swaps.
Greenspan was just quoted today saying that the “worst of the credit crisis is over”.
http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/business/business-usa-economy-greenspan.html
Why can’ he just shut up and retire?
Residential building has been delayed 18 months and home prices have yet to be determined, said Klif Andrews, division president of Pardee Homes.”
“‘It’s partly the market — we’re not in a rush to get in the market today — and it’s partly slow construction activity,’ he said. ‘It was difficult to complete some of the things we had to complete.’”
“‘You’ve got to spend $30 million on wastewater treatment before you can hook up one toilet. That’s why HOUSES WILL ALWAYS APPRECIATE because it’s difficult and expensive to build in outlying areas,’ he said.”
Really? #1 it takes gas to go anywhere, at $4+ a gallon and rising…
#2 I can put a septic tank in for far less than $30MM.
Pardee on, fool…
“In an attempt to create bidding wars, banks are giving real-estate agents permission to list foreclosed homes at less than market value.”
How does that work? Do they pay the buyers to buy the house? Ohhhh…. you mean “market value” isn’t really “market value.” Well heck, why didn’t you just save us some mental energy and call it “less than fantasy value.”
“Aggressive HOA law firms are going after individuals that have filed for bankruptcy protection, and they are winning. This is bad news for individuals that have purchased real estate over the last few years using adjustable rate mortgages (ARM’s). As interest rates have climbed, many home buyers have been forced to surrender their property to the bank. But that is just the beginning of the HOA nightmare. Under State law, HOA’s are collecting on post bankruptcy petition debts. Their theory is that the debt was incurred after the petition was filed, and therefore was not discharged. Until the title actually passes back to the bank, they are successfully collecting on post petition assessments.”
http://tinyurl.com/4263qv
Question: I know this has been asked before, but I wasn’t paying attention. If the house you’re renting is foreclosed or given back to the bank, is the bank obligated to honor your lease? Let’s say you’re 3 months into a one-year lease, for example…
Hmmmm…I think I know the answer…no.
Legally, no, unless your state has some special rule that overrides generally accepted contractual principles.
But you obviously have leverage - you could even tell the bank that you will sue the lessor if they don’t honor your lease. That could complicate the bank’s position. In fact, if you’re brave, you might even try to beat the bank into a better deal, citing emotional distress. Seems like the bank might be happy to hae you stay there, assuming the property isn’t covered with beer bottles and dog poop.
Note: even though it’s fun to give legal opinions and advice, I ain’t a lawyer and really don’t know F.A. But chick usually doesn’t come on to these late threads.
thanks, Paul
Only 1300 cases ?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/05/06/cbsnews_investigates/main4076533.shtml