Scant Comfort To Anyone Struggling To Sell
The St Petersburg Times reports from Florida. “Hold on to that house. Lawrence Yun, chief economist with the National Association of Realtors, says it will be worth at least 20 percent more. But you’ll have to wait until 2013. In a presentation Wednesday to the Greater Tampa Association of Realtors, Yun predicted the Tampa Bay area housing market will revive by next year and resume appreciating at a modest pace.”
“‘By five years from now, comfortably, things will be much better,’ Yun reassured more than 100 association members in the crowd.”
“Homes could eventually attract premium prices obtained in places like San Francisco, Yun said. ‘There will be a tipping point where Tampa becomes a superstar city,’ he said.”
“Appointed the association’s chief economist a year ago, Yun has faced skepticism in the past about his guesswork. During a visit to Tampa last June, he foresaw a ’sonic boom’ in home sales if the Legislature lowered property insurance rates. Rates went down a bit, but the region is still waiting for the boom.”
“Yun said his role at the national association is to promote positive trends as long as the information is factual.”
“With local home sales off by more than half since the 2005 peak, Realtors were grateful for the bit of good news. They thanked Yun with a warm ovation. ‘We’ve been doing it for 100 years. We’re going to be doing it another 100 years,’ said Deborah Farmer, president of the Tampa association. ‘Because Realtors rock!’”
“These days, a tension hangs over the quiet streets of Andalucia. Rival groups of property owners avoid each other except at board meetings, where they clash. The Andalucia Master Association’s board has been trying to force owners of vacant lots to build houses since 2003.”
“‘It really has turned personal,’ said Leon Arndt, one of a group of dissenting lot owners. ‘People cross the street to avoid meeting each other. It’s tearing the community apart.’”
“Late last year, the association replaced that demand with orders to install landscaping, sidewalks and other amenities on empty lots. Lot owners objected, saying the improvements would cost them $20,000 to $30,000 each.”
“Among the residents who support letting lawyers sort it out is Sandy Hopper, who lives next door to Arndt’s vacant lot on Rubia Circle. ‘I don’t know too many people who can pay $850,000 for a lot and then cry poor because they don’t want to pay $30,000 to fix it,’ said Hopper.”
“That 2005 purchase price is accurate, Arndt said, adding, ‘I’d be surprised if I could get $600,000 for it now.’”
“One of the reasons behind the housing boom through 2005 was heavy migration into the Tampa Bay area from places like the New York City suburbs, Chicago and Miami. And one of the reasons homes aren’t selling as they should this year is that the pipeline of transplants from these feeder markets is drying up.”
“The drop in home sales the past year in Queens, Suffolk and Nassau counties in New York, the Chicago region and Miami are worse than the sales drop in the Tampa Bay area.”
“‘Going back to 2001 through 2005 we had a huge (number) of homeowners cashing out and moving not just to Florida but to the Carolinas. In the last 24 months, we’ve seen very few,’ said L.P. Finn III, whose family owns one of Long Island’s largest realty companies. ‘Our referrals to fellow brokers in Florida are way off, about 50 percent off.’”
“Chicagoan Lynn Tempera bought a house in Pasco County’s Oakstead neighborhood as the housing fever tightened its grip in 2005. But when she returns on visits to her suburban Chicago haunts, she gets a glaring lesson on why fewer Midwesterners are duplicating her Florida migration.”
“‘My daughter lives in Huntley, Ill. The same houses are still for sale every time I go up there. It’s been that way for over a year,’ Tempera said.”
“Homebuyers still see better values in Florida than in New York, Finn said. ‘But they’ve said, ‘Let’s put that move off a couple of years.’”
The Herald Tribune in Florida. “Sarasota attorney John Yanchek admitted that he helped a client prepare two sets of mortgage documents with two different sales prices and that he lied about money that was supposedly held in trust. When asked why at a Florida Bar hearing Thursday in Sarasota that could be a prelude to the stripping of his law license, Yanchek said it was because his clients asked him to.”
“‘I was instructed by my client to sign it, and I signed it,’ said Yanchek, referring to a mortgage document that bore an incorrect sales price. ‘It was not the smartest thing in the world to do.’”
The News Press from Florida. “Building industry representatives want Lee County to make massive cuts in its budget for permits and inspections before a $430,000-a-month deficit drains the coffers dry.”
“The industry has been hit hard by the collapse of housing prices in the county: Median price for an existing home was $212,500 in March, down 34 percent from $322,300 in December 2005, at the height of the boom.”
“As a result, new houses can’t be built for what existing ones cost, and construction has plunged. A similar situation exists in Cape Coral, where a similar fund is running a deficit.”
“‘We’re having to do some difficult things and having to let some very good people go’ as construction jobs become scarce, said Dennis Cantwell, a director of the Lee Building Industry Association. ‘It’s not easy for us and it’s not easy for the county, but it’s the sort of choices they have to make.’”
From CBS 46 in Georgia. “The housing crisis is hitting home in Georgia. Foreclosures hit record highs this month, and real estate prices across Metro Atlanta are plummeting.”
“‘I couldn’t tell you what will happen to me,’ Ruby White said. Her house was scheduled to be sold to the highest bidder at this month’s foreclosure auction on the Fulton County courthouse steps. ‘I can’t sleep at night,’ White said.”
“White’s mortgage payments jumped from $780 a month to more than $1,200. That’s more than she takes in on her monthly fixed income. ‘I’ve been living here for 38 years,’ White continued.”
“‘Prices are still going down,’ Steve Palm said. His company tracks trends in home values across the Metro Atlanta using actual home-buying and selling prices. According to Palm, White lives in one of the hardest-hit areas for foreclosures and price reductions in the metro area.”
“‘In these areas, we saw the price go down by 8 percent or more,’ Palm said, pointing to a map that showed areas in Clayton, South Fulton, and DeKalb County. According to Palm, more than half of Clayton County is in what he considers a ‘crisis zone,’ where home prices have dropped 8 percent or more in a 12-month period.”
“‘Pretty much the south side or below Interstate 20 has seen the greatest reduction in price,’ Palm continued. ‘Clayton County, South Fulton, South Atlanta, we have some areas in DeKalb.’”
The Atlanta Journal Constitution from Georgia. “To those optimists who argue the housing market is about to turn around, one of Atlanta’s top developers begs to differ. ‘We believe it will be some time — at least the second quarter next year — before we see any substantial recovery in the residential markets,’ Tom Bell, CEO of Cousins Properties, told shareholders.”
“‘We’ve stopped producing lots in almost all of our projects and are now watching the market closely for the opportunities that inevitably show themselves during tough times,’ he said. ‘We’re seeing office users that are slower to commit or expand, retailers that have significantly pulled back on new locations and residential buyers that are still waiting to see if we’ve hit bottom.’”
“A Cousins condominium building in Buckhead is scheduled to open in three months. Only 25 percent of the 137 units have sold thus far, Bell said. Two other condo projects — CityPlace at Buckhead and the Premiere at Fox Plaza — were put off because of the soft market. CityPlace was a joint venture with The Related Cos.”
The News & Observer from North Carolina. “Progress Energy’s utility meters are spinning noticeably slower in Florida, a reflection of the national real estate bust that has stalled the Sunshine State’s economy.”
“The Raleigh electric utility reported Thursday that earnings dipped 3.5 percent in the first quarter of this year as the once-booming growth in Florida’s population has slowed to a trickle. Tens of thousands of unoccupied homes in Florida have swelled a backlog of unsold or foreclosed properties in that state’s housing market.”
“‘This is permanent for the next year or so until we see the housing inventory reduced,’ said Peter Scott, Progress Energy’s chief financial officer. ‘This is just a temporary slowdown.’”
“Rising demand in recent years emboldened Triangle apartment landlords — many jacked up rents and fees while offering fewer giveaways. But the tables could be turning as a crush of new apartments hits the market and job growth slows.”
“‘We’re starting to see adjustments that could put money into the pocket of the renter,’ said Brian Reece, a partner at Karnes Research, which collects data for the Triangle Apartment Association.”
“The Triangle labor force is growing at its slowest pace since 2003, state labor data show. During that period, 3,647 new units became available — the most in any year since 2002, apartment association data show.”
“Another bit of foreshadowing: The region’s apartment vacancy rate is climbing for the first time in six years. At least 9.2 percent of the region’s 91,800 apartments were empty at the end of March, up from an eight-year-low of 7.8 percent a year earlier.”
“Meanwhile, 3,687 units are being built, in addition to a growing number of unsold homes that are moving to the rental market. There were 7,123 units on the drawing board at the end of March, according to the apartment association.”
“‘A few years ago, money was very easy to come by,’ said David Ravin, president of a Charlotte company that is building at least 612 apartments in communities in Cary, Chapel Hill and Raleigh. ‘But the money has been cut off. And while we might have a bubble here to get over, there’s going to be a slowdown in supply.’”
The Charlotte Observer from North Carolina. “Charlotte-area home sales and construction plunged during the first quarter, outpacing national declines. The eight-county region has now seen four straight quarters of worsening declines, and the current period may be even more painful.”
“‘It was bad, and I believe second quarter will be worse,’ said Chuck Graham, a longtime expert on the area real estate market. ‘We’re getting into the worst time for us.’”
“A national index also shows the Charlotte market as the only one of 20 urban areas where home prices are still appreciating. But those measures are scant comfort to anyone struggling to sell.”
“Scott and Angela Gibson have dropped the asking price on their Charlotte home nearly 9 percent, to less than $175,000. They moved back to Tennessee in November after he was laid off. They’re straining to pay rent and the $1,400 mortgage payment. One month, they sold their lawn mower to raise mortgage money.”
“‘We are an average middle-class family, and this has left us financially spent and worn out,’ she said.”
“Charlotte logged a record year for sales and construction in 2006, even as housing markets elsewhere slowed. The region’s sales rose further during the first three months last year. Since then, they’ve tumbled hard. ‘We’re late to the party, but we have arrived,’ said Matt Martin, an economist with the Federal Reserve branch in Charlotte.”
“Newcomers, like the Gibson family, have propelled the Charlotte region’s growth and kept houses selling. The Gibsons studied several cities as they contemplated a move in 2006. They bought in the Davis Lake community.”
“But they found costs higher than they expected, from taxes to child care and food. Last October, he was laid off from his job in marketing for a lawn and power equipment company. It was time to leave.”
“They first asked $191,900 for their house on Windchase Lane. They’re at $174,900 and willing to negotiate.”
“‘When we bought … there was such a high competition for good homes, and when you saw something good, you had to make a bid quickly,’ Angela Gibson said.”
“Hold on to that house. Lawrence Yun, chief economist with the National Association of Realtors, says it will be worth at least 20 percent more. But you’ll have to wait until 2013. In a presentation Wednesday to the Greater Tampa Association of Realtors, Yun predicted the Tampa Bay area housing market will revive by next year and resume appreciating at a modest pace.”
I am very curious if anyone who posts here knows of similar advice given to Japanese owners of overvalued real estate circa 1990. They could have lost a fortune by taking similar advice at the time, as Japanese real estate continued dropping in value for at least fifteen subsequent years.
As a “chief economist” I wonder if Yun would be willing to share the underlying hard data upon which he bases his 20% increase figure????
Based on the way things look, at the 5 year mark, we will be lucky to be emerging from a nasty recession and credit will be super tight as a result of the level of default we have heading our way in the credit sector…
That was my thinking…that this ‘turnaround’ in the market in 5 years would require the most optimistic conditions possible…conditions so sanguine that the coming recession would end in the next few months, and a complete recovery for Wall St. by the end of the year. Not likely, is my guess.
The problem with Florida in particular is that this overbuilding will cause areas to become slums! There are developments in Lake County florida that have entire blocks of empty houses (on the secondary market.)
These will become slum-towns, as we’ve seen in the past in the North East. If you have an investment property there, it will be worth zero, if it isn’t already. (Realistically, if you can’t sell a house at any price that doesn’t leave you bankrupt, then your house is worth zero, at least to you!)
Yun is like any other politician. They’ll promise anything at a future date but after their term is over. I don’t think Yun is going to last till 2013.
Ala Bush and Paulson, “we are not in a recession until we leave office”
As one politician said when asked why he voted for a bill and its ramifications,” I won’t be in office when it comes due”.
FP,
Excellent point and one that’s been on my mind a LOT lately. What Yun ’should’ be doing is talking about getting their membership ‘right sized’ to account for the realities of today’s market.
“Certainly we would love to retain you ALL as valued members of NAR. But the truth is that we’re in a down market. It’s a trying time for all of us. Branch managers should look to keep the very best agents and support them in their efforts. Let’s get a handle on our advertising budgets and share a message not of ever increasing prices, but one of ever increasing VALUE! Thank you for your time”
Is that so hard?
Thats quite palatable DinOr. Maybe you should work in PR. But in this case, (fun)Yun knows all too well that his army of RealTards were the biggest risk taking speculators of the entire bubble. Their entire net worth is a function of keeping hot air under prices. We all know it’s impossible but (fun)Yuns task of aligning reality with propaganda to keep the membership dues flowing is just as difficult.
exeter,
Oh I agree, but I didn’t say it just to be difficult or get attention etc. When I worked at a specialty firm during the 90’s our founder came right out and told us the cold hard facts. He also guaranteed some of us wouldn’t make it. I think the firm ( post tech-wreck ) was simply looking at their costs to keep that ‘desk’ occupied and felt if they could scare some into quitting now they could spare themselves some overhead. Which was the right thing to do. When I look back ( after a 39 month long bear market ) they were probably doing us a favor.
“Ala Bush and Paulson, “we are not in a recession until we leave office”
And the truth is that without spiraling fuel costs, we’ve been in recession for 18 months.
I think I loathe this guy even moreso than Lereah.
I think the player I despise the most in this whole Housing mess is Bernanke. Yun is a shill without real power. Bernanke has lots of power and is short on transparency and only cares about bailing out his Wall St buddies.
I don’t think so. Bernanke really isn’t part of the serious power structure, unlike Greenspan. He’s the fall guy. The patsy.
Bernnake is just being played by the banksters. They are frightening him to extort free government money out of him. They know exactly what to say and how to say it.
Academics don’t assume that other people are lying to you intentionally, especially about technical matters. Bankers know this happens all the time.
We need somebody with a spine, and enough experience to know when to say “no” and know when somebody’s blowing smoke up their ass. Paul Volcker is a principal economic adviser to Obama.
DrChaos,
I agree for the most part but BB has been out of step even w/ Paulsen on the matter of “principal reductions”. He’s been articulate and cooperative w/ WS but now HE needs something. Would the banks have been any more compliant had this been AG?
Realtors Rock! - can you think of a two words that irk you any more at this time????
BB is the fall guy and Paulson is being heroic
they could have passed on these jobs
“why does he look so scared”
Tampa, FL
12-month forecast: -17.1%
Median home price: $200,000
One year price change: -12.8%
Five year price change: 52.1%
Prices forecast to hit bottom: Jan.-Mar., 2010
Change in foreclosure rate: 281%
funny you posted that data- I just read that this morning on CNN money. Most of the markets they posted were in FL.
Even the sptimes did not have it before I posted it. In my research on the economy, I often find the information weeks before the general public of the press hears about it.
–
It is a great time to buy, but not a good time to sell.
Buy, buy, buy. Don’t sell, no need to sell, wait to sell.
Buyers and sellers shall never meet in that case. The whole game for NAR is to put a stop to the price decline, but the reality on the ground is:
Areas With Consistent Housing Price Declines Since The Credit Crisis Began In July 2007
Price Per Sq Ft Annual Rate Change (Raw Data Source: Radar Logic):
_________METRO 2007Q3 2007Q4 2008Q1TD 2007Q2-2008Q1TD
_Sacramento, CA -24% -45.0% -31.0% -34.5%
___Las Vegas, NV -26% -39.1% -34.4% -33.2%
___San Diego, CA -24% -30.5% -29.4% -27.8%
_____Chicago, IL -41% -20.6% -13.6% -26.9%
_Los Angeles, CA -24% -33.0% -21.0% -26.7%
_____Boston, MA -25% -27.3% -20.7% -24.9%
____San Fran, CA -27% -21.4% -26.1% -24.8%
_____Phoenix, AZ -22% -22.5% -29.8% -24.5%
_______Miami, FL -26% -20.9% -19.9% -22.5%
______Tampa, FL -26% -19.5% -18.9% -21.9%
_Minneapolis, MN -13% -24.3% -23.4% -20.1%
____San Jose, CA -12% -20.1% -20.8% -17.3%
25-MSA-Composite -21% -22.3% -15.3% -19.9%
All except two metros, Charlotte and Columbus, have an Annual Rate of decline in double digits since the end of 2007Q2.
Jas
He means 20% more than what it will be selling for in 2012 which by my guesstimate will be about $39/sqft.
Lets see….even if I disregard any price depreciation (which will happen anyway) and estimate inflation (by some measure) at about 4% —– in 5 years the nominal amount of your house will be worth 20% more, but the real value will be less.
Pick a card, any card, step right up folks and see the bearded lady, and our biggest clown Yun.
Real estate has become A fool’s paradise. A sucker with every granite countertop.
BTW I know that real inflation is more than 4% and is climbing so
“don’t flame me Bro”
“Homes could eventually attract premium prices obtained in places like San Francisco, Yun said. ‘There will be a tipping point where Tampa becomes a superstar city,’ he said.”
Holy christ, he’s definately gone off the deep end with that comment. The real superstar cities are falling like a rock too; what on earth do you think is going to push Tampa to that level? If anyone is getting there in FL, it’s going to Miami or Orlando, not Tampa.
What an idiot.
Oh, and just so everyone knows, the “superstar” cities (in my mind) are NYC, LA, and San Fran. They all have something truly unique about them (movie capital of the world, financial capital of the world, and tech capital of the world) that helps them justify their crazy prices.
I guess Tampa could try for “Strip club capital of the world”. Not so sure that compares with the first 3 though.
Michael,
Took the G-string out of my mouth!
“Homes could eventually attract premium prices obtained in places like San Francisco, Yun said. ‘There will be a tipping point where Tampa becomes a superstar city,’ he said.”
Tampa cannot reach San Francisco prices because Tampa does not have San Fran salaries. Additionally Tampa has high home insurance and property taxes.
LOL.
Yeah, I’ll give you the tipping point.. When median income is 150K per HH in Tampa bay, then, perhaps, it will reach SF prices.
Don’t expect that to happen ANYTIME soon.
I laughed out loud at the “superstar” comparison. Tampa? hello? too damn funny.
Comrade Yun unleashes his 5-Year-Plan…
“‘By five years from now, comfortably, things will be much better,’ Yun reassured more than 100 association members in the crowd.”
NAR economists, the new fortune tellers.
“NAR economists, the new fortune tellers.”
I seem to remember a prediction of a Florida median price of $500,000 by the end of 2008 in one of their little newsletters using a bunch of graphs and charts. I wonder if that will hold true…
I saw that prediction also for the Palm Beach area. We will see a median of 200-250K before we see 500, that’s for sure!
Perhaps is there is only 1 home sold all month, then you could get your 500K median.
Notice much new going on Andy? This market is just dead now, and the number of homes for sale is staggering. I would estimate that 20-30% of my street is for sale right now; and that trend seems to reflect what I am seeing in other new home developments.
Amazing.
Fortune Telling is illegal……love to see Yun busted and in jail….if he comes to your town, report him to the police!
Larry Tarrot, fortune teller
under the yun-yun tree
aren’t homes selling at 2004 or 2003 prices depending where you are
I can get a 2004 price in 24 hours where I live
Mamby-pamby. Try 2000 prices. NOW… you’re negotiating!
It’s like a weatherman telling a bride-to-be that there will nothing but sunny skies on her wedding day. He has no ability whatsoever to make that happen, but is just promising her what she wants to hear.
‘I don’t know too many people who can pay $850,000 for a lot and then cry poor because they don’t want to pay $30,000 to fix it,’ said Hopper. That 2005 purchase price is accurate, Arndt said, adding, ‘I’d be surprised if I could get $600,000 for it now.’
Who pays $850k for a lot?
‘Because Realtors rock!’
‘Because Realtors rock!’
Slight delay in posting while I clean the coffee I spewed all over my keyboard after reading the above comment!
‘Because Realtors rock!’ Rock they do, all those rocks loose in their brains.
They have brains?
Just goes to prove their delusion. Reminds me of high school basketball game our team is down 20 points with 2 minutes left, but coach says “We rock”.
What kind of idiot thinks that the more you pay for something the more you have left over to keep it up. This is what is killing a lot of marginal owners. They paid so much to get the asset they can’t keep up with it.
I think palmetto’s too busy laughing about that Tampa superstar city quote to comment.
What the local yokels don’t know is that he gives that same speech in every town.
“What the local yokels don’t know is that he gives that same speech in every town.”
I’d like to see him give it in Riviera Beach or perhaps Okeechobee.
I can tell you they’re still believing it in Palm Beach Gardens.
They do really believe it, don’t they. People are still telling me that “DownTown” is going to urbanize Gardens, and people are going to come streaming into all the new condos to live near the city center. So stupid, the demand for “downtowns” in every single town in S. FL is such a bubble, I wish I could find some way to short it.
Do we really need a massive shopping center every 8-10 miles in S. FL? Downtown/CityPlace/Town Center/Las Olas/etc/etc/etc. And of all of them, the only ones I would say are even marginally successful would be Las Olas and the others in Miami (Lincon Rd). The rest are going to dry up and blow away.
PBG high rise condos. What a bunch of morons. There’s land everywhere; there’s barley a need for high rises in WPB, definitely NOT in Gardens.
Yes they do. I wrote a sarcastic post in response to an article about Maui median prices dropping that basically was a litany of about ten things people have said about why prices will NEVER drop in Hawaii (”People will pay more to live in paradise. Boomers are retiring. Foreigners will everything. etc etc” and one of the local real estate apologists writes in and seizes on my post as being why it is a good time to buy and tells me that I really get it.
I’m still not sure if he was being sarcastic, but actually I don’t think he was. I think these people truly can’t compute a falling market that lasts for more than a few quarters.
“there’s barley a need for high rises in WPB”
There’s certainly a kernel of truth in that.
“‘There will be a tipping point where Tampa becomes a superstar city,’ he said.”
Could anything be more preposterous? I live in Tampa; it’s a dump! It always has been. It’s a magnet for criminals and fat slobs, and welfare recipients (not always the same people). But, the locals really believe it’s the center of the Universe; they say so endlessly, even on local news programs. There is a cable channel devoted to music videos by Tampa rock bands and “artists.” I kid you not, even though the notion of anyone in Tampa being an artist or furture rock star is beyond laughable. Tampa is most famous for serier killers who cut victims’ arms off, and slutty junior highschool teachers having sex with 13 year old students. We also have one of the highest per capita venereal disease rates in the Western World, the highest level of aire-borne molds and bacteria, and one of the lowest rates of functional literacy. But, we are the world capital for lap dancing, and the center of the Goth movement, still thriving here after dying everywhere else on Earth.
Tampa will become a superstar city only if tips into the bay or gets vaporized by a direct atomic bomb blast (MacDill AFB is strike command). Otherwise it will remain what it has always been: a dirty, pretentious laughingstock.
You need to get out of Tampa, I believe. It sounds awful. Unless you really adore lap-dancers, which is a valid passion and I’m not dissing it in any way. Hey, I know! Leave, but bring a few lap dancers along with you! Problem solved.
But only after you’ve given them a surprise reading test and ascertained that they can really sound out words, and also checked them for STDs, and rejected the moldy and/or germy ones.
You know what, I can tell that today is going to be one of my ‘Good Idea Days’.
I think there might be a place for you in the next administration…..
Incredulous:
All I can say is wow! You left out the lack of quality good paying jobs for the area. In fact one post I put on the sptimes.com site, I mentioned the lack of jobs and came under fire for saying it, but then about a week later, the paper verified it was correct and most of the jobs reported were not even in the area. In fact, 45% of those who bought in 2007 in the Tampa Bay area are now upside down. I bet those people are glad they followed the advice of the realtor. Perhaps the realtor can provide them the difference in what they lost!
Great rant, Incredulous =)
teachers having sex with 13 year old students. We also have one of the highest per capita venereal disease rates in the Western World, the highest level of aire-borne molds and bacteria, and one of the lowest rates of functional literacy. But, we are the world capital for lap dancing, and the center of the Goth movement, still thriving here after dying everywhere else on Earth
DAMN That sounds like a really nice place!
And Olygal has some good ideas. It really must be her “goodideaday”
Does anyone else miss the times when only sailors had stories like that? When fights at strip clubs took place with bare fists in distant ports like Singapore? Why join the Navy NOW for all those ‘great’ times and fun stories? ( They have a strip club next door to the recruiter’s office ) I’m no altar boy but why were we so eager to import this?
Fat people?! Poor people? Venereal disease? Illiteracy? *GASP* The horror of it all!
One of those things, regrettable. ALL of those things makes it inhospitable.
“But, we are the world capital for lap dancing, and the center of the Goth movement, still thriving here after dying everywhere else on Earth.”
awesome, I’m visiting there next week.
Walnuts:
If you like strip clubs, seriously, Tampa has no compare anywhere else in the US (Vegas is the only thing even close). You won’t believe the number/amount/size of the strip clubs in Tampa; I live on the east coast of FL, and there’s a strip club every few miles here, so I thought I was ready for Tampa. Nope, not even close. There’s areas where there are 2-3 within sight of one another.
Thank you, glad I didn’t have to say it. I don’t want to bash other people’s cities, but, since you live there, it’s fine for you.
Let’s just say, I echo everything you say, every trip to Tampa has been exactly as you describe above. One plus is that because of all the strippers around, there are some good looking girls there. But, alas, if a girl is really good looking and in Tampa, chances are, she’s a stripper.
Most of the good-looking girls are actually drag-queens. That’s another thing Tampa is famous for: the most beautiful (and convincing) drag-queens in the world, most of whom steal their fabulous clothes, and not one of whom can sing a note.
So you really like Tampa Incredulous?
So, what keeps you in Tampa?
Most of my family is here. I discovered years ago that no place, no matter how beautiful, matters more than loved ones (including pets).
It doesn’t see very evolved there in Tampa.
Yeh ! Keep up the comments about Tampa so the prices come down. I live near Tampa and am constantly dodging those “air-borne molds and bacteria” and slutty Junior high teachers.
Look out, here comes some more ! What a problem !
Stay away. If you live here, sell and get out !
That CAN’T be true.
I bet in some places he claims that they already are a “superstar” city, not about to become one.
:^)
Just wait until the Tampa Bay Rays win the world series this year. It’ll be a superstar city.
The Rays are in St. Petersburg (on the west side of Tampa Bay), not Tampa. Boo hoo. Even the people there are getting sick of all the hype; they have a voters’ ballot to stop the building of a new, unnecessary stadium (the one they already have is fairly new) downtown on the water (with taxpayers’ money, of course). They’ve so overbuilt downtown St. Petersburg, it’s becoming a bad joke.
Ben:
You should post your opinion on the blog site (un) real estate at sptimes.com. Lot’s of people in denial who just do not understand basic economics or accounting.
I don’t have time. I said long ago that if you see a poster claiming to be me, it’s a fake. Besides, I had to ban the SPT IP because of their trolling.
I had to ban the SPT IP because of their trolling.
Interesting, I did not know about the trolling. I just had someone post using the fuzzy bear blog name saying that the bottom had been reached. I had them remove it, even my critics thought it was incorrect! Needless to say, I post on the sptimes site with the facts, but I am finding many people in denial, mostly realtors! Most lack the education in finance, accounting and understanding basic economics!
Isn’t Tampa part of the “Redneck Riviera”, with an abundance of low paying jobs, many of which are connected to RE? Or do they have an economic dynamo like Silicon Valley a short commute away?
I suppose it doesn’t matter, since the NAR tells me that area incomes have no connection to housing prices…
(shuffles off to drink more KoolAid…)
You are mostly right- few outsiders realize that outside of the glamour of Miami Beach and Palm Beach, FL is pretty much the south. As far as jobs, I know Orlando has some “real” employers that pay more than $9 an hour- not sure about Tampa.
If you’re within 5-10 miles of the ocean, there are some glamor areas. However, once you get off the water, you very quickly realize that not only is FL empty (like, nothing at all, not underdeveloped, just empty land as god left it), but also that you have just crossed the border into the deep south.
Miami, WPB, FTL, those aren’t southern cities. But, man, you head off the coast (even Wellington, and places like Weston you start to see it), and it’s right back to the 1800s. Amazing.
“Laughing under breath about all the ‘out of land’ comments I have heard about FL”
Isn’t Tampa part of the “Redneck Riviera”, with an abundance of low paying jobs, many of which are connected to RE?
Mostly low paying service industry jobs tied to tourism and in the past few years during the bubble low paying constuction jobs tied to RE. There is not much in the area job wise that would support the high prices of RE. In fact only two companies had the few jobs that paid the higher salarys. I have lived in the Tampa Bay area 22 years and it is amazing how many people come and leave the area because they can’t find jobs that pay enough so they can afford to live here.
‘I think palmetto’s too busy laughing about that Tampa superstar city quote to comment.’
I think you’re right. He was probably eating Cheerios while reading and inhaled the whole entire bowlful, including the spoon, on the very first gasp of merriment.
Quickly, palmy! Breathe! Breathe, man! Spit out the spoon!
Fortunately cheerios have holes in them so he should still be able to breathe.
Someone needs to check on Palmy; it’s very, very likely that he’s slumped over his keyboard with his head blown clear off his shoulders after reading Yuns babblings on Tampa. It’s also possible that he can’t clear the tears from his eyes because he’s still laughing so hard.
Honestly, as soon as I read it, I went back and immediately read it again.. Even Yun couldn’t be stupid enough to say something like that.. He needs to come out and deny having ever said that; someone’s gonna have him committed!
…………..too busy laughing about that Tampa superstar city quote to comment.
I too, and stupified, dumbfounded and basically too miopic to respond at the moment. I can’t laugh.
I’m just trying to get my brain to function and refocus on some form of reality…………
Tampa? Superstar City?? HUH??
Aw, shucks, I love my hbb homeys. I was gone most of the day and missed all the excitement. I was more focused on the Andalucia story, it’s right in my back yard.
‘We’ve been doing it for 100 years. We’re going to be doing it another 100 years,’ said Deborah Farmer, president of the Tampa association.
‘Because Realtors rock!’”
Wow! So this one is part of the realtwhore brain trust?
“White’s mortgage payments jumped from $780 a month to more than $1,200. That’s more than she takes in on her monthly fixed income. ‘I’ve been living here for 38 years,’ White continued.”
38 years? Why does she have a mortgage?
She already sold the place (to the bank), most likely at the top of a huge real-estate bubble- and has spent the money. Now she can’t afford a place to live. She was likey one of the huge financial winners in this; not a victim.
38 years? Why does she have a mortgage?
My thoughts, exactly.
She took the money and had a great time.
Now, she is a “victim”, who is loosing her house.
Bet she’s driving a Lexus and sporting gold teeth.
“Homes could eventually attract premium prices obtained in places like San Francisco, Yun said. ‘There will be a tipping point where Tampa becomes a superstar city,’ he said.”
It is much more luckly that I will win the lottery, or become the world’s most famous porn star. Nothing about Tampa resembles a superstar city, and there are dozens of cities way ahead of it striving for that goal. Why would anyone take someone that makes such ignorant statements seriously? I guess when you have no facts or data to support your position, all you have left is crazy dreams.
I love this blog for information. We are moving to Tampay Bay in the very near future, and just told the wife we are renting for at least the next 2 years there before we buy. Our down payment will make us money instead of wither away, and we’ll have a better idea of commutes and communities by that time too.
Rusty:
The commute times in the Tampa Bay area are really bad, but much better than Atlanta. Poor public transportation and healthcare, along with high crime and every pervert and con artist lives in the area! High insurance costs and high taxes for property owners. Welcome to Tampa Bay!
I am planning on moving out of the area once I retire as it is just way too expensive to live here on a fixed income.
thanks for the info. We are doing this in stages. Wife is going down first to test the water(so to speak), I stay here. If she lasts two months then I transfer with my company. We are moving for her career, but mine won’t be affected. Sounds like we’re in better shape than most that live there, we’ll both have decent salaries, money in the bank and the right attitude about saving and RE for the moment! Course if she doesn’t like it, she comes back to our rental we have now and goes back to her old job. Time will tell how this plays out.
The commute times in the Tampa Bay area are really bad, but much better than Atlanta. Poor public transportation and healthcare, along with high crime and every pervert and con artist lives in the area! High insurance costs and high taxes for property owners.
I have often wondered why Money Mag often ranks Loveland/Ft. Collins in its best places to live list, since they seem like rather unremarkable places. Its when I read comments like this one that I understand why.
Charlotte down? No way, we are different here….right? LOL
Lane
The General makes better cars, than business decisions.
Scary~
“Today, GMAC is marketing the three-bedroom home on Cellini Street for $609,900 — more than $250,000 less than the original short sale offer.”
During a visit to Tampa last June, he foresaw a ’sonic boom’ in home sales if the Legislature lowered property insurance rates. Rates went down a bit, but the region is still waiting for the boom.”
The NAR and Mr.Yun has lost all credibility and therefore their predictions are worthless. How can anyone respect a person or an organization that has repeatedly provided the public false and incorrect information over and over again. Credibility is earned Mr. Yun and you have ruined your credibility as well as the NAR’s credibility with the consumer!
And besides, bad metaphor…
Sonic Booms happen for a fleeting instant, when a plane breaks the speed of sound. As quick as snapping your fingers.
Unless it was produced by the Concorde. That one really reverberated!
Never did the flight of the Concorde, missed my chance.
I wasn’t on it. But, while I was visiting relatives overseas, there was this terrible boom above their house. Knowing the history of this area — the coastal fortifications to protect against a Nazi invasion were still in place — I thought something terrible was afoot.
My relatives assured me that the sound we just heard was the Concorde, which was beginning its descent into Heathrow.
In the instant before the boom there’s a little “click” that sounds exactly like someone snapped their fingers. I’ve heard two of those and it happened both times.
That was our idiot governor who made the sonic boom boast. If he’d come out of the closet, he wouldn’t have to pander.
“‘I was instructed by my client to sign it, and I signed it,’ said Yanchek, referring to a mortgage document that bore an incorrect sales price. ‘It was not the smartest thing in the world to do.’”
I wonder if the client of Yanchek instructed him to rob a bank would he do it? What a lame and poor excuse for a lawyer, it all boils down to ethics and his responsibility to uphold the law. Greed clouded Yanchek’s better judgement!
Yanchek should be disbarred!
Just saw an article about a guy I went to HS with, attny who “allegedly” embezzeled $100, from a sr woman and many other cases are being looked into.
Met a MD who said, many attnys do just enough, but leave out the most important clauses to protect you, and then you pay more to get them to close the loopholes. Creating future billable hours for themselves. Instead of doing the job correctly the first time.
I have a degree in engineering, not in law, but I don’t trust any attorney to protect me in RE transactions. I carefully read every document myself, try to develop a good understanding and only if I feel comfortable about it, I sign it. So far, I have done well.
Which is why they are rated on par with realtors.
(no disrespect to any attorney’s on this board………………:-)
I would love to see how Yun is coming up with his data for price appreciation. The FL market will not be attractive again until prices are much much lower. I used to live around Orlando in the 90s and much of its appeal was affordable (I bought a new 1500 sqft townhome for 80k). RE- appropriately discounted for the hot brutal summers, natural disasters, thunder and lightning etc. The low prices made it worth putting up with all of the negatives in FL. Who will move to FL at current prices?
I would love to see how Yun is coming up with his data for price appreciation.
Any organization that has argued for years that housing prices have no connection to area incomes and that housing values double every 10 years can’t even be trusted to predict tommorow’s weather, IMO.
I would love to see how Yun is coming up with his data for price appreciation.
He has the right data, but twists the data to fool the public which shows the lack of ethics that have towards the consumer.
I gave up on the otherwise reasonable premise he is actually using data.
Huh.. Well, that explains a LOT!
Yun’s 20% in 5 years works out to only 3 3/4% per year. Even IF he is right, you would be better off renting and investing your down payment in a money market fund.
“‘Banks are frozen like a deer in the headlights,’ said Richard Green, a real estate lawyer and broker in Fort Lauderdale.
I love venison. Once my dad was in the mountains and hit a deer in his truck and he hopped out, strung it up and bled it out right then and there on a handy tree. (It was the mountains–this is in Utarrr by the way–so there were tall enough trees available. It’s not like he was on his way to a job or anything, plennnnty of time. In fact, he was probably up there poaching anyway, and this just saved him time and effort.) Anyhow, he partially dressed it and hauled it home and there you go. He even brought home the suit and briefcase full of lending tables, in case any of us wanted to pretend to be bankers. But we didn’t. Banking seemed like a tedious occupation, and we would all rather pretend to be pirates.
I think I was 12 before I ever ate meat that hadn’t been poached. It tasted, I don’t know…bland and somehow law-abiding. So I had to dump on lots of ketchup.
Wait, no! School lunches! Oh, I loved school lunches. That’s where I learned about exotic food that wasn’t 1. venison, 2. other game or 3. carrots.
I still recall school lunches with great fondness.
woo, tater tots. Only time I got them was at school.
Oly, reminds me of my dad. He was a doctor and one day he brought home our pet pointer wrapped up in a bloody sheet.
Seems he and his doc buddies spade speck on his best friend’s dining room table.
He shot a ram once too!
even brought home the suit and briefcase full of lending tables
Mmmm… nice, cubicle-raised meat, nice and tender.
Yun or dung, it’s all the same!
No, because one of those things can be trained to ride a tricycle and the other is a giant lardy Heap o’ Pulsing Lies wearing an unattractive tie. See, there’s not actually a ton of similarities, I would argue.
Does anyone in Central Florida who owns a house know what approximate insurance rates are? Example 100K replacement cost , Concrete house ? I’m curious as to a percentage of cost.
.5% $500 yr, 1% 1000 yr 2% 2000 yr?
Does anyone in Central Florida who owns a house know what approximate insurance rates are?
Areas are rated by zip codes and distance to the coast by the insurance companies. The state of Florida is in a battle with the insurance companies over these rates as it seems that the insurance companies just are making up numbers to drive up rates. You might look at myflorida.com website as it may help you.
Thanks for the post , but this is exactly what the insurance companies told Me. This is one other reason people are getting fed up with Florida. I’m trying to build my own home ( only way I can make sure I don’t lose my A$$. ) But NO ONE can give Me a Ballpark on insurance costs. ie…. Concrete block, compared to frame, etc or any ballpark of a percentage of replacement cost. No one wants to give Me any kind of figures till I build it?
In what world does anyone buy something without knowing what the carrying costs will be? This makes a big difference in My decisions. I always check the rates on a car before I decide to make a purchase.
This kind of frustration alone may make Me leave the state.
Call a local insurance agent. A normal, concrete home will run you $1400~2000, if your not on the coast. House size, pool/pets, and neighborhood crime rates will affect where you are on that scale.
I can’t speak to central FL, but for coastal FL, 1% would be cheap, and 2% would be really expensive. So, central I would expect that 1% would probably be a reasonable estimate.
Thanks, for the input. That’s all I was looking for is some kind of even reasonable estimate. When You hear of rates going up 400% it requires You to think about even attempting to ever own in such a place without calculating some numbers.
I moved back here in 2005 and my cost of living is 70% more than it said it would be according to all the ” Media Information ” on moving here. If I would of had the ” Real Numbers” I would never have dragged my Family here.
prices are guaranteed to be higher soon because Realtors Rock!! Bernanke’s troubles are over.
From the original post:
“Rival groups of property owners avoid each other except at board meetings, where they clash.”
Possible future headline: Homeowners Turned Gangbangers: Story at Eleven
“Yun said his role at the national association is to promote positive trends as long as the information is factual.”
So the guy is bascially admitting that his job is to tell half truths?!?!? Of course, we all know that another word for half truths are really just lies. Also, I would quote the old adage about lies and statistics except, that I have never once seen any actual (or factual) statistics to back up even his half lies.
see here: http://www.irs.gov/charities/nonprofits/article/0,,id=96107,00.html
Section 501(c)(6) of the Internal Revenue Code provides for the exemption of business leagues, chambers of commerce, real estate boards, boards of trade, and professional football leagues, which are not organized for profit and no part of the net earnings of which inures to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual.
A business league is an association of persons having some common business interest, the purpose of which is to promote such common interest and not to engage in a regular business of a kind ordinarily carried on for profit. Trade associations and professional associations are business leagues. To be exempt, a business league’s activities must be devoted to improving business conditions of one or more lines of business as distinguished from performing particular services for individual persons…
polly,
Extremely… interesting! Do tell. Is this why they’ve dragged the title companies etc. in as willing accomplices?
I’m sure the title companies have their own business league or leagues. The leagues that have co-ordinating interest probably work together on stuff. They can operate without paying income taxes. Can’t get tax deductible donations. The section has been there for a long time. These groups are the tax-exempt orgs that pay the best salaries. Lots of them concentrated in DC.
There’s all sorts of interesting information on government web sites.
Actually, now that I think about it, the really interesting thing about this quote is that he said it at all. Doesn’t that mean that someone at the meeting asked him why he always says things are great despite being wrong so much in his predictions? Did someone at one of these meetings actually have an independent thought?
So the NC chickens are coming home to roost? Don’t want to say We told you so, but WE TOLD YOU SO! Been predicting this for years, but, of course, the RE industry basically told the sheeple that we were nutty know-nothings who were full of shit!
“White’s mortgage payments jumped from $780 a month to more than $1,200. That’s more than she takes in on her monthly fixed income. ‘I’ve been living here for 38 years,’ White continued.”
It’s interesting that someone who has lived somewhere so long hasn’t ever been able to pay their home off. Are all these people just wasteful spenders? Or have a growing number of people been using debt just to buy the basics? Where I live, it looks more like the latter situation.
This feels more appropriate every day:
If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them, will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. - Thomas Jefferson
BTW Peter Scott, this is not a TEMPORARY slowdown (unless you’re defining “temporary” in geological time!)
“Yun said his role at the national association is to promote positive trends as long as the information is factual.”
What mouthpieces like Yun don’t understand is that no amount of spin can change the direction of prices - prices didn’t go up for years and years just because all the news regarding RE was mouthwateringly positive, and prices certainly didn’t start going down in 2006 because the press suddenly started to write negative stories about RE.
Markets move because of greed and fear. Lax lending made a big difference for a while, but not anymore. Nothing can stop all RE markets from regression to the mean, and then some.
If all it took to move markets was a high profile blowhard spewing praise, then Cramer would never be wrong - and we all know that aint the case:)
“Homes could eventually attract premium prices obtained in places like San Francisco, Yun said. ‘There will be a tipping point where Tampa becomes a superstar city,’
Hey, wait, it was Las Vegas that was supposed to be the next “superstar” (aka “great”) city…no, wait, the California central coast (”The Next Santa Barbara”)…no, wait, Fresno…no, wait, Trona…
For the first and only time in my life, I will stand up for Mr. Yun.
I’m going out on a limb here, but I’m fairly certain Mr. Yun has not, nor ever will, mention Trona as the next “Superstar” city. Eek.
That being said, don’t you sorta wish that the Curtis Armstrong character from “Better off Dead” was at that Yun meeting? i can see him going up to every single person in that crowd, pointing at them, and busting up laughing. Realtors Rock indeed.
And this will be my last 80s reference today.
“I want my two dollars…” in equity back.
re Trona: don’t you have to be more than two people to be a city?
anyone have a link to 2008 default rates
zero down and 20% down ?
the zero is everywhere but the 10 & 20% down is top secret
tia
http://www.economist.com/daily/news/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11325709
The house-price bust has a long way to go-
The Economist
Thanks awaiting wipeout. A very useful link.
“Yun predicted the Tampa Bay area housing market will revive by next year and resume appreciating at a modest pace.”
Why does it matter?? Why does everyone need to hear that their houses will appreciate and when it will being to happen??
Can’t they just be content with paying what they feel is a fair price for a place to live that gives them certain qualities that perhaps renting can’t?
Gawd this market psychology Jedi mind-f@ck bullsh!t is infuriating!!!!
(wait, did I say that out loud?)
The mind-f@ck bullsh!t is aimed at two particular kinds of people: potential sellers and potential buyers. Potential is the key word.
Yun knows that supply increases are his main problem and desires to cut the supply.
A potential seller that decides not to sell keeps one home off the market. A potential buyer that decides to pull the trigger takes one home off the market. That’s two less homes for sale.
Assurances that prices are or will rise encourage both decisions.
Excellent analysis of funYuns psychobabble.
Hold on to that house. Lawrence Yun, chief economist with the National Association of Realtors, says it will be worth at least 20 percent more. But you’ll have to wait until 2013
That sounds suspiciously like the house staying at the same real price as inflation runs 3.7%.
One of the reasons behind the housing boom through 2005 was heavy migration into the Tampa Bay area from places like the New York City suburbs, Chicago and Miami. And one of the reasons homes aren’t selling as they should this year is that the pipeline of transplants from these feeder markets is drying up.–Leon Arndt
That would be plausible, but why have rents not shot up and down if it’s all supply-and-demand driven? If there really had been a shortage of houses, rents would have shot up. They didn’t, though, because all the change in price was speculative. There never was a shortage of places to live.