May 12, 2008

A Long Roller-Coaster Ride Down Into Hell

The Bradenton Herald reports from Florida. “Thomas Wilson strolls through his Stoneybrook at Heritage Harbour neighborhood, pointing out the subtle signs of financial fallout. Windows with views of empty rooms. Weeds sprouting through once well-manicured lawns. Small, bright orange stickers on front doors, the tell-tale sign that the houses have been abandoned.”

“Just on Wilson’s street, Stone Harbour Loop, 16 foreclosure actions were filed last year. In the first three months of 2008, seven more were filed.”

“He’s angered by the aggressive lending and poor oversight that have landed thousands of families in the same predicament. ‘It’s just terrible what they’re doing to people here,’ Wilson says. ‘They’re killing America and they don’t even know what they’re doing.’”

“He and his wife closed on their $522,500 home in December 2005. Five months later, they were sued for foreclosure and are still fighting to save their home. Wilson, who is not currently making payments on the loan, acknowledges that the couple should have looked at the loan documents more carefully.”

“‘I didn’t read the papers,’ Wilson said.”

“‘I’m not trying to weasel out of anything. If I owe you $530,000 I’m going to pay it,’ says Wilson. ‘Make this loan work with $2,500 (payments) like you initially said. And everyone walks away a winner. If you can’t do that, let us out.’”

“Leslie McHugh and her husband, Sean, bought their 2,200-square-foot home on 123rd Place East in River Plantation about a month ago for $195,000. It was a steal, considering the previous owners had purchased the home for $358,000 less than three years ago, according to Manatee County property records.”

“Still, Leslie McHugh realizes that can cut both ways, depending on how long it takes stability to return to the neighborhood.”

“‘At this point, it hasn’t affected us because we got a great deal,’ she says. ‘But I guess when we go to sell our house, they factor in your neighbors’ homes to determine the value. I kind of feel we’re at the bottom of how bad it’s going to be.’”

“As far as Wilson is concerned, it couldn’t get much worse. ‘If I had it to do all over again, I wouldn’t be here,’ Wilson says.”

From CBS 4.com. “If you’re one of the thousands of South Florida residents who have bought a house in the past few years, a new study shows homeowners who bought their homes recently are most likely ‘upside down’ in their mortgages.”

“The study, from Zillow, showed homeowners who bought a house in the last year run a 71% chance your mortgage is upside down. If your home was bought in the last two years, the likelihood of your mortgage being upside down jumps to 77%.”

“But Joseph Castaneda, of Home Appraisals, Inc, believes the Zillow numbers may be underestimating the drop by counting only what is sold. ‘We’ve experienced a 20% drop in values over the past year. So if someone put down 20% or less, that equity has been wiped away,’ Castaneda away.”

“For homeowners like Adele Booza of Cutler Bay, the real estate collapse has forced her to make some difficult decisions. She and her husband were planning to move to South Carolina in November and put their home on the market.”

“The home sat on the market for four months and in that time, ‘No one came to see the house, ever. I was very surprised. Even in my listings that I had put up, I’d put the house was on the news and I though for sure I was going to get calls, and nothing,’ Adele said.”

“The news for sellers may not be improving much, as both appraisers CBS4 spoke with believe bigger price drops are on the horizon. For example, banks and developers are putting up homes for $80,000 that might be exactly the same as your home that should be worth $200,000, which is great news for buyers, but horrible news for owners.”

Nightly Business Report. “JEFF YASTINE, NBR CORRESPONDENT: ‘If the economic earthquake that’s hit the U.S. residential real estate market has an epicenter, it’s probably here — Cape Coral, Florida, which lies on the state’s west coast near Ft. Myers.’”

“Median sale prices are off more than 25 percent in the past two years. Realtor and market analyst Annette Barbaccia says the discounts of many individual properties are even more extreme. ‘We recently sold a house for $100,000 that is a year old. The owner paid $240,000 for it and the new owners got a great windfall.’”

The Miami Herald. “The hard numbers were sobering. It wasn’t just the stats — like 85 percent of our population can’t afford the area’s median-priced home — that were tough to swallow in the 82-page Workforce Housing Needs Assessment put out by FIU’s Metropolitan Center and released by the Greater Miami Chamber last week.”

“It was the projections, too. There were lots of tables but the bottom line is we’re a low-wage, service-oriented economy, and in 2015 we will still be one.”

“Yet we have luxury high-rise after luxury high-rise and more coming on line.”

The Orlando Sentinel. “The mantra is clear: Live where you work. Work where you play. Planners hope neighborhoods mixing homes and businesses are a solution for a Central Florida population expected to double to more than 7 million by 2050.”

“But newly converted urban dwellers, drawn from the suburbs by the allure of night life and amenities just a short jaunt away, are realizing city life comes at a price.”

“Their urban utopia can be a noisy place. Longtime residents are lodging complaints about the increase in traffic and noise. ‘One man’s wonderful music is another man’s absolute annoyance,’ said Mount Dora Mayor Melissa DeMarco.”

“Carrie and Karl Stairs, who live with their children in a historic building near the West End Trading Co. in Sanford, one of the clubs cited, say they are putting their home on the market because of all the changes.”

“Music from West End toned down after the arrests, but Stairs said there are still problems with traffic and patrons being loud and obnoxious after leaving. ‘The direction Sanford wants to go with their night life is one we don’t want to stick around for,’ Carrie Stairs said.”

The News Journal. “Like other types of property in the Daytona Beach area, beachside homes and condominiums experienced slower sales last year as the economy sputtered and adjustable-rate mortgages grew more expensive and harder to get.”

“Joe Palmer, a broker in Ormond Beach, isn’t hopeful. He characterized the local market as a ‘long roller-coaster ride down into hell’ with out-of-town buyers still reluctant to make a commitment because of the unsettled economy.”

“‘Unless they’re buying a primary residence, they’re very, very gun-shy,’ he said.”

“In late 2006, Palmer and a business partner tried selling fractional ownership shares in a cottage in Ormond-by-the-Sea but couldn’t find any buyers for monthly shares costing $20,000 to $30,000 each. Instead, they’re renting out the property in an effort to cover some of their carrying charges.”

“‘There are so many condo hotel units on the market, and some of them are only $60,000,’ he said. ‘That makes it hard to sell a traditional beachside home.’”

“William London, a Gainesville-based loan officer, said he chose an oceanfront home in Wilbur-by-the-Sea as a future retirement spot precisely because the area is relatively quiet and unpretentious.”

“‘I’m sure I have the smallest, ugliest house on the ocean,’ he said, referring to a two-bedroom, 1,100-square foot home he bought last month for $795,000, a markdown from an original asking price of $1.5 million. The sale price for the 63-year-old pink bungalow tucked into a 50-foot-wide lot also was $171,728 below its Volusia County tax assessment of $966,728.”

“Actually, London and his wife will continue spending many of their weekends in a much larger Harbor Village condo in Ponce Inlet they share with London’s brother. The Wilbur house will be rented out for the summer season, and the Londons will use it only during off-season periods. In 10 years or so, the couple hopes to retire to Wilbur.”

“London sold property in the Washington, D.C., area for 25 years, and continues to follow the real estate market in his banking job. He said soft real estate cycles tend to last five to seven years, so he thinks area prices will stay flat or decline for a few more years. At least 60 units in his Harbor Village complex are for sale, he noted, and some have been on the market for more than a year.”

“However, he decided to buy property this year because the Wilbur house had been deeply discounted by a new owner who wanted to liquidate an inheritance. ‘It was an opportunity that was too good to pass up,’ London said. ‘As that adage goes, they’re not making any more oceanfront.’”




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114 Comments »

Comment by Fidelus
2008-05-12 06:34:00

If you can’t do that, let us out.’”

The sheriff will be doing so shortly.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-05-12 07:37:20

We’re not trying to weasel out. Make the loan work with $2,500.

Imagine they tried to negotiate with Fat Tony, and Tony takes off a few fingers.

Bring back the Fat Tonies, says I. :-D

Comment by NYCityBoy
2008-05-12 08:19:55

“Where is the pretzel money?”

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-05-12 08:30:38

“Fat Tony is a cancer on this fair city. He is the cancer, and I am the … um … what cures cancer?”

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Comment by SD_Wangenstein
2008-05-12 11:07:42

But my wife, she asks me, “Where’s da money?”, “When are you getting da money?”, “Why aren’t you getting da money now?”, and so on…

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Comment by aladinsane
2008-05-12 08:23:02

Please release me, let me go,
For I don’t own you anymore.
To live a lie would be a sin.
Release me and let me loan again.

Comment by Lost In Utah
2008-05-12 12:26:09

groan… :)

 
 
 
Comment by SOMD Guy
2008-05-12 06:39:57

“‘I’m not trying to weasel out of anything. If I owe you $530,000 I’m going to pay it,’ says Wilson. ‘Make this loan work with $2,500 (payments) like you initially said. And everyone walks away a winner. If you can’t do that, let us out.’”

If he only made it five months before he was in foreclosure I don’t think he could make the teaser payments, much less the $3K plus a month it would take to actually buy the house. I can’t believe DC wants to take my tax dollars to save this guy from his own greed.

Comment by SFC
2008-05-12 07:14:19

If he was in foreclosure 5 months after closing, he must have never made ANY payments. Figure 45 days until the first payment would have been due, then a few more months before they would have foreclosed. So he’s spent exactly zero, but has the balls to complain that he’s being treated unfairly.

Comment by intheknow
2008-05-12 10:27:53

First thing that bugs me: Mr. Wilson’s (first) mortgage of $414,000 states a payment of $2,277 per month on the document, with no change until 2011. His second mortgage is for $103,500 and does not indicate an adjustable rate.

The other thing that bugs me about this story is the timing. Couldn’t they have found a recent story?

Purchase occurred 12/05 and was in lis pendens as of 5/06 and had a judgement 09/06. So you’re right; if he was at least three months behind by May, he probably didn’t even make a payment in the first place.

 
 
Comment by Tim
2008-05-12 07:23:44

I quickly did the math in my head and $2,500 only covers interest at 6% on 500k. I assume he got the variable (why fix your rates at a period of time when rates were at an all time low, and fixed rate loans have less transaction costs; taking risks is what life is all about) so that the expected interest rate over the life of the loan would be greater than that. So in summary, he is saying I dont want to weasel out, but I just dont want to ever pay the principal back. I also note that he is probably a high risk borrower so even the fixed for him would be greater than 6% and he doesnt want to even cover his interest. What a . . . , and yet he blames others.

Comment by pressboardbox
2008-05-12 07:34:35

The pen is at fault here: If only the darn pen hadn’t worked when he went to sign those documents…

 
Comment by Al
2008-05-12 08:20:20

I used an online mortgage calculator and it came up with $2537.67 per month at 5% for 530K using a 40 year amortization. I wouldn’t sign that, but Wilson?

Comment by Tim
2008-05-12 08:25:26

And that number probably does not include property tax escrows which are probably at least $400 a month, and much higher in the cities I have lived in.

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Comment by Al
2008-05-12 09:17:13

You’re right. I just used the mortgage. No insurance, taxes or maintenance included. When I decided to see what kind of mortgage this guy would need to hit around $2500/month for $530K, I was expecting a longer amortization period.

 
Comment by JohnF
2008-05-12 09:35:09

With a 30yr fixed fully-amortizing $530,000 loan and a $2,500 monthly payment, the implied interest rate is 3.9 percent. With a 40yr loan it is 4.84 percent.

 
 
 
 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2008-05-12 09:51:38

“Make this loan work with $2,500 (payments) like you initially said.”

When I read this, I couldn’t help translating it to “Please change the laws of math. I’ll pay it all back eventually as long as I can do that with payments that are less than the interest.”

What a doofus.

Comment by SOMD Guy
2008-05-12 10:17:59

Just remember half the people out there are below average and average isn’t good. This guy proves it.

 
Comment by crisrose
2008-05-12 10:50:48

This guy isn’t a doofus - he’s a sleazy a$$hole. Quite a difference.

 
 
Comment by ochomepro
2008-05-12 17:03:55

a $2,500 monthly payment (not including taxes or insurance or association fee) on a $530,000 30 year loan works out to about 3.9% interest.

can a borrower really be so stupid as to believe that’s the actual interest rate on the loan?????

 
 
Comment by denquiry
2008-05-12 06:47:44

“‘I didn’t read the papers,’ Wilson said.”
———————————————————
he spent 500K and didn’t read the papers. I just hope the chinese and the russians aren’t reading this blog. Based on American’s stupidity, they just might decide to attack us stupid americans.

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-05-12 07:36:21

Hmm, and whose fault was it that he didn’t read the papers? Maybe a new law that forces people to act in their own best interest is needed? Congress, and ideas?

Comment by awaiting wipeout
2008-05-12 07:47:51

Having signed mortgage docs a couple of times, I think the way they present the docs is screwy. You should have the docs to read (and get leal advice if you prefer), then meet again with the lender 48 hours later. At least read the Truth In Lending Statement, and quickly scan the docs, highlighting clauses to discuss. It is one of the most important documents, you sign in your life.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-05-12 07:55:04

Buy a coffee, pick up the papers, and read them leisurely.

If they try to hurry the deal, tell them to f*ck off or the deal is off.

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Comment by aimeejd
2008-05-12 08:35:06

Having signed mortgage docs a couple of times, I think the way they present the docs is screwy. You should have the docs to read (and get leal advice if you prefer), then meet again with the lender 48 hours later.

Agreed, but do you really need a contract to tell you whether or not you can afford a $530,000 mortgage? Is there ANY way in which such a contract can be drafted or presented that would make such a debt reasonable on the basis of a $2500 per month payment, especially considering that he appears to have been a first payment default (i.e., he never made even ONE payment?)

He COULD NOT AFFORD THIS HOUSE. There is no loan that could make this house AFFORDABLE for him without bubble-level appreciation. He speculated and lost. That’s the problem, not the loan docs, or the loan (though the loan never should have been made since he cannot afford the house).

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Comment by awaiting wipeout
2008-05-12 09:15:39

Good point. I also wish they would put the “fear of God” in document fraud. I haven’t followed the FBI mortgage fraud investigative wave, but I do hope they nail enough people to make it look like fraud isn’t acceptable anymore, and you’re looking at jail time.

 
 
Comment by climber
2008-05-12 08:49:55

I’ve always had a copy of the paperwork at least a few days in advance. I still read over everything before I sign.

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Comment by grumpy realist
2008-05-12 19:13:22

Also the “mad cunning” of those who want to sign up on a $500K mortgage loan but refuse to pay an extra $400 to a lawyer to explain things to you….

Considering the pile of paper we had to wade through at closing, I’m glad my lawyer was around to help me through the stuff. (We actually caught some mistakes on the closing documents as well.)

 
 
 
Comment by lostcontrol
2008-05-12 09:29:01

Make the borrowers initial every page at the bottom of each page of any and all docs.

What we are talking about, is the burden of proof. If the mortgage broker on these loans wanted to cover is Butt, he would have included this minor addition to all docs he presented to the prospective home purchaser.

Comment by tazman
2008-05-12 15:56:47

initialing each page was required for every mortgage note i’ve ever signed.

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Comment by ed in texas
2008-05-12 08:04:59

When you deal with stupid people who spray money around, you don’t attack them, you sell them vast quantities of stuff they don’t need…. wait. That’s what they’re doing.

 
Comment by diogenes (Tampa)
2008-05-12 08:12:15

………That’s just a poor excuse because he doesn’t want to leave the luxurious home he can’t and could never afford.
Any IDIOT can figure that the cost of a half-million dollar house is a lot more than $2500 per month.
In fact, that probably cover the taxes and insurance.

Notice THEY ALL SAY….I didn’t understand, I didn’t rea it, I didn’t know…………B.S.
They prices stopped going up, so the “appreciation” isn’t there to skim off the loan.
SCREW him, and everyone like him that thinks they can live like millionaires on a beer budget!!

Comment by aNYCdj
2008-05-12 09:18:49

2500 x 300+ $750,000 oh yeah its 360 so 60×2500=150,000 so $900,000 is $30K year i can afford that on my $50k salary

————————————–
Any IDIOT can figure that the cost of a half-million dollar house is a lot more than $2500 per month.

 
Comment by grumpy realist
2008-05-12 19:17:02

Actually, if he were to pay down 40%-50% he probably COULD have gotten it to $2500/month. But that wouldn’t have been “leveraging his capital” sufficiently, I guess.

(Paid 40% down on my condo, which popped the eyeballs of the bank person.)

 
 
Comment by eastcoaster
2008-05-12 08:22:17

Car salesmen get exasperated with me when I ask them to clarify each and every piece of paper I sign when I buy a car. I can only imagine how ticked off someone may get at me if / when I finally sign mortgage papers. But, hey, I’m going to know what I’m signing.

However, even without 20 questions, shouldn’t a buyer know the very basics of the mortgage they’re signing up for. Meaning “fixed” or “adjustable”? If “adjustable”, when and by how much? Maybe I’m oversimplifying, but geez.

Comment by Bad Andy
2008-05-12 08:34:10

“Maybe I’m oversimplifying, but geez…”

You’re not oversimplifying. Each loan has a single document that tells you whether the payments are fixed or subject to change. If they are subject to change, it tells you when and approximately how much. I’ve seen paperwork that starts at $1,200 and then goes as high as $2,200 (by their own conservative estimates) in 3 years after the interest only an/or teaser rate goes away. There’s no excuse because this isn’t hidden. It’s one separate page!!

Comment by Al
2008-05-12 09:21:14

The mortgage I signed recently had an amortization schedule for the 5 year life of the loan. It showed the fixed payment all the way through and how much of each payment was principal and interest. Both my wife and I had to sign it.

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Comment by happybeachlife
2008-05-12 09:11:44

yes, they did read and also a good stealth reader for over years now:)

 
Comment by Lost In Utah
2008-05-12 12:29:05

They needed to convert the papers from English into Text Messaging so people can read it.

Comment by In Colorado
2008-05-12 13:09:05

FBs r scrwd?

 
 
 
Comment by Little Giant
2008-05-12 06:51:17

“Your future is in Florida, fair white goddess of states!” Mantra of the 1920’s Florida land boom.

 
Comment by Tim
2008-05-12 06:54:19

“However, he decided to buy property this year because the Wilbur house had been deeply discounted by a new owner who wanted to liquidate an inheritance. ‘It was an opportunity that was too good to pass up,’ London said. ‘As that adage goes, they’re not making any more oceanfront.’”

Nothing is further from the truth. Due to global warming and hurricane erosion the chances are almost 100% your property will eventually be underwater and new ocean front property will be created. We can’t tell you exactly when this will occur, but I wouldnt want to watch it happening from my living room window.

Comment by spike66
2008-05-12 07:12:33

‘As that adage goes, they’re not making any more oceanfront.’”

As long as he keeps repeating that, maybe he won’t care. The 1,100 sq ft place he bought was knocked down from 1.5 mil to 795k…when it’s worth 350k in a year, will he still be singing?

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-05-12 07:40:21

He’ll be walking, won’t he? :-D

 
 
Comment by desertdweller
2008-05-12 09:08:12

That is what I was thinking after reading about, oh, Myanmar’s typhoon, Beijings recent 7.8 earthquake, and a cpl of mo ago Illinois had an earthquake, and then the erosion and glaciers melting..gosh, we just might have more coastline and soon.

Comment by grumpy realist
2008-05-12 19:19:51

Wasn’t bloody much of an earthquake here in Chicago. After Tokyo, I didn’t even wake up.

 
 
Comment by jim A
2008-05-12 10:16:05

Well that’s not net new oceanfront, just a different oceanfront.

Comment by Bill in Carolina
2008-05-12 16:15:54

Sea levels are currently rising 1/4 inch a year. That’s a foot in 48 years. If you buy oceanfront property, don’t plan on leaving it to the grandkids!

Let’s see, our place here is 900 ft above sea level. How long do we have? Dang! I won’t be surfing off the patio in my lifetime. :-)

 
 
 
Comment by snake charmer
2008-05-12 07:01:25

I had occasion this weekend to repeat one of the saddest drives in Florida — down I-75 from Ft. Myers to Naples, and then on County Road 951 from Naples to the Marco Island bridge. I passed at least six gigantic clear-cut parcels of land that seemed big enough to be viewed from the space shuttle. All were empty or very nearly so. I also passed mile after mile of sterile golf course McMansion developments, the houses in which were advertised thirty seconds at a time on a kind of “real estate channel” offered by my hotel room’s cable package. The cheapest one was offered for $625,000, and other than specialty physicians, high level hospitality executives, hedge fund types, and developers, there are no jobs in Naples that would support prices even one-third that level. As for wage labor, perhaps the expectation remains — even with gas prices at $3.83 per gallon — that such persons will commute from Immokalee.

As recently as six years ago, CR 951 was piney woods. Now sprawl has reached it, and within a nine-mile stretch there are two Wal-Marts. I felt sick. Southwest Florida has become a monument to human avarice.

Comment by snake charmer
2008-05-12 07:33:00

And another thing. When I returned from my trip, I reviewed this blog. I learned to my amusement that, according to the NAR’s Lawrence Yun, my lowbrow town of Tampa teeters on the precipice of becoming one of the world’s “superstar cities” with San Francisco real estate prices to match. I’ve been fortunate enough in my life to visit a few superstar cities: New York, Sydney, Buenos Aires, Cape Town, Madrid. Anybody who believes that Tampa has any chance of joining these places is deluded beyond words and needs to turn off the #^%$&(@ television and get out more.

This county is, however, the superstar of tax delinquencies. This morning’s Tampa Tribune contained a 376-page listing of properties on which taxes have not been paid. I’ve never seen anything like it. If Pinellas and Pasco were included, I bet the listing would have exceeded one thousand pages.

Comment by Moman
2008-05-12 08:50:00

I laugh as well. Tampa is a beautiful city with a lot to do but very little culture. The city really needs to work on cleaning it up - there is a lot of trash along the roads and things just don’t look real nice. A real strong civic works program is what is needed here, but there is not that support from the constant migration to/fro the area. Ever hear of Suitcase City?

The only way for Tampa to move to super status is to get some real industry here and stop being so reliant on the New Yorkers who want to come blow their money on overpriced houses and move home after two years leaving a mess in their wake….

 
 
Comment by bob
2008-05-12 07:47:43

So, what happens to these communities in 7-10 years. Do the prices fall 50% and more northern-ers retire there, and start to make a community? Do they get such a bad reputation that the cluster of developments deteriorate and almost need to be bulldozed?

Comment by NoSingleOne
2008-05-12 10:39:31

I suspect that these 600K+ homes will be bulldozed before they lower the price to something that would result in a sale.

 
 
Comment by Moman
2008-05-12 08:54:24

I dont’ like to visit Ft. Myers/Naples. It’s a cultural dichotomy - semi-rich notherners living in areas that must be gated to protect them from the poor locals.

Comment by ric
2008-05-12 09:49:47

I would rephrase that as “semi-rich northerners that need to be kept in caged communities to protect the locals”

 
 
Comment by TorontoGav
2008-05-12 10:05:33

Hi Snake

We recently took a week’s vacation in Sanibel Island, FL, but flew into Ft. Myers. I was prepared to see some gross excesses after reading all of the FL articles on the blog but was also amazed at the huge expanses of scraped earth we drove by. There were 3 channels of all RE, all the time, on the cable in our condo.

And I took my first ‘HBB style’ picture - an Escalade sitting on huge chrome wheels parked at Target with ‘SHORT SELL NOW’ and a 1-800 number on the windows.

Comment by snake charmer
2008-05-12 12:14:02

I pulled off the highway with the intention of taking pictures for this blog of one of the sites, but changed my mind after approaching and seeing that the area was heavily posted against trespassing.

I like Sanibel/Captiva, because, notwithstanding the bridge work, an effort has been made to keep runaway development at bay. The highway leading to Sanibel, on the other hand, contains many examples of what we’ve been writing about.

 
 
 
Comment by WhatOnceWas
2008-05-12 07:02:40

” At least 60 units in his Harbor Village complex are for sale….. ‘As that adage goes, they’re not making any more oceanfront.’”

No they’re not making anymore oceanfront, but the places available to live in on the beach is increasing exponentially !! He has 60 vacant in his building alone ! and I was say there are probably another thousand vacancies within a mile of him…but hey, expert realtor if you want toss your money in the fire far be it from me to tell you what you should prudently do…also you can quote that oft repeated RE mantra” Real estate never goes down” well not forever, but for the next year or two or three is my guess ace….

 
Comment by watcher
2008-05-12 07:14:07

‘As that adage goes, they’re not making any more oceanfront.’”

As the adage goes, wait until hurricane season.

Comment by Brew Ha Ha
2008-05-12 07:25:38

What about insurance? I thought that was financial murder for those folks down there… or is it only on the east coast of Florida, where a hurricane hit is more likely?

Comment by Tim
2008-05-12 07:33:22

He got a plan to rent it out. He’s all good.

 
Comment by Bad Andy
2008-05-12 08:47:53

“What about insurance? I thought that was financial murder for those folks down there…”

Insurance on a new, or substantially updated building is nothing close to financial murder. West coast is about 15% less expensive than the east, but still reasonable. Condo insurance is $350 to $1,000 per year depending on contents coverage. Home insurance runs 0.5% to 1% of the replacement cost of the house depending on the company, location, age of the building, and updates. The exception to that rule would be Monroe (keys), Broward and Dade county all of which run between 1% and 2% of the coverage amount per year.

Comment by taxmeupthebooty
2008-05-12 09:34:48

FL gov made insurance “affordable” like the FEDs did w housing and soon even healthcare will be made “affordable”
“made affordable” = totally fckd

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Comment by Bad Andy
2008-05-12 09:53:03

“FL gov made insurance “affordable” like the FEDs did w housing…”

They mandated discounts for windstorm mitigation and for buying reinsurance from the state pool.

First, I don’t think the state should have a reinsurance fund. If they choose to have one, insurance companies shouldn’t be forced to purchase reinsurance from it. This is government going too far, but is only part of the lower rates.

I can tell you first hand that a new shingle roof is very likely to hold up in a hurricane. I don’t think it’s a bad thing to mandate discounts for the roof that will hold up. I do think it’s bad to mandate the amount of discount given.

So, I guess I’m 90% in agreement with you.

 
Comment by taxmeupthebooty
2008-05-12 10:22:11

flood plain insurance is a guarantee that people will build in harms way - they make other pay for it
same deal here

 
Comment by Bad Andy
2008-05-12 10:59:10

“…flood plain insurance is a guarantee that people will build in harms way…”

As is government insurance that’s forced to write at a rate that is too low and they know it is crazy.

The insurance problem in Florida would be solved instantly if the state told companies they could write at any rate they feel is correct as long as they wrote everywhere in the state. We’d see a short-term spike in prices and in the long-term those at least 5 miles from the coast would pay reasonable rates.

 
Comment by kirisdad
2008-05-12 11:20:38

And would the wealthy waterfront owners allow the politicians to do this? I don’t think so.

 
Comment by Bad Andy
2008-05-12 11:47:41

“And would the wealthy waterfront owners allow the politicians to do this?”

Typically they self-insure or use more expensive private insurance because the wealthy understand what will happen to the government insurance when disaster strikes. People like to blame the wealthy, but they’re not the problem. It’s the people to lazy to shop for private insurance or maintain their home well enough to obtain private insurance that are the biggest problems.

 
 
 
Comment by Paul in Jax
2008-05-12 19:30:58

“or is it only on the east coast of Florida, where a hurricane hit is more likely?”

Hurricane hits are far more common on the Gulf. Islands deflect and weaken most storms moving toward SE Florida, and direct hits are almost unheard of in an area from New Smyrna Beach north to Savannah, due to the extreme westward curvature.

 
 
 
Comment by SFC
2008-05-12 07:22:47

“It was the projections, too. There were lots of tables but the bottom line is we’re a low-wage, service-oriented economy, and in 2015 we will still be one.”

He forgot “where noone speaks English or plans to learn, and insists on continuing the illegal customs of whatever banana republic hellhole they floated in from”.

 
Comment by pressboardbox
2008-05-12 07:30:52

“…At least 60 units in his Harbor Village complex are for sale, he noted, and some have been on the market for more than a year.”

I live in the area and can attest that NOBODY lives in Harbor Village - it is a sprawling four-story condo monstrosity with very dark windows when passing by on A1A at night.

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-05-12 07:43:10

He sees a complex with 60 vacant units that can’t sell…yet still concludes it’s a “great time to buy”. If only we could bottle that kind of optimism no one would ever need to shed a tear again.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-05-12 08:24:46

It’s just f*ckin’ extraordinary, isn’t it?

After all these years, my mind still reels at the way they conceptualize things and rationalize them.

 
 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-05-12 08:26:21

Is Florida going to be the 1st state to noticeably fall apart?

Or will California’s built-in “the bigger they are, the bigger they fall” advantage, kick in and allow the Red Star State, the honor?

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-05-12 08:39:27

My money’s on the Cali-fornicators.

Nobody does excess like them, and not only are the ginormous, they’ve partied it up like no one else.

 
Comment by Ed G
2008-05-12 09:22:56

My money is on Florida. CA may be high in price, but it also has that thing that FL will never have: Real jobs. Every job in FL comes with a nametag and uniform.

Name a major company that’s hiring whose base of operations is FL.

Comment by pressboardbox
2008-05-12 09:40:06

Club Cheetah

 
Comment by packman
2008-05-12 09:43:34

National Enquirer.

So there.

:)

 
Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-05-12 09:48:04

Years ago I did field contract work for Siemens in Orlando. For Siemens’ employees FL seemed like a great deal, but for the rest of Orlando - not so much. I’d have to agree with your call - overall Californians have more options.

 
Comment by jim A
2008-05-12 10:21:21

I basicly agree. FL first because there is NOTHING supportingit; but CA furthest simply because there’s further to fall.

 
Comment by VaBeyatch in Virginia Beach
2008-05-12 10:39:31

SAIC. There is some tech stuff to support the entertainment industry (laser shows, etc).

 
Comment by novawatcher
2008-05-12 12:18:00

CSX

 
Comment by lovswr
2008-05-12 13:13:21

Harris Corp in Melbourne. Myself & a buddy of mine are in the Telecoms business. We took a class with a guy from Harris last summer. They have been hiring ever since we knew of them.

Comment by Quirk
2008-05-14 07:53:47

Yep, and now your company’s up for sale. What will happen to your hiring blitz then.

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Comment by Moman
2008-05-12 15:13:12

There’s a lot of real jobs in FL. The problem is that comeptition is fierce for them and locals don’t have the training. With fierce compeition comes low wages, so it’s lose/lose for all.

 
Comment by Paul in Jax
2008-05-12 19:35:09

CSX

 
 
 
Comment by Gulfstream-sitter
2008-05-12 08:37:34

“…..has an epicenter, it’s probably here……”

Can’t wait for the Chamber of Commerce types to start arguing about whose town/county/state is the “epicenter”.

I’d still put my money on SoCal.

 
Comment by Lisa
2008-05-12 08:39:27

“‘I didn’t read the papers,’ Wilson said.”

“‘I’m not trying to weasel out of anything. If I owe you $530,000 I’m going to pay it,’ says Wilson. ‘Make this loan work with $2,500 (payments) like you initially said. And everyone walks away a winner.”

Guess what. If your budget for housing is $2,500 a month, you have no business living in a $530,000 house. The sense of entitlement here is just beyond beyond.

Comment by DinOR
2008-05-12 09:12:48

Lisa,

Well more than that, for a guy that couldn’t seem to grasp the terms of his loan, he’s certainly adept at foreclosure law? As Tim points out, it appears he went immediately into default from his purchase date of Dec. ‘05. So he’s going on 3 years of rent-free livin’! What a way to live though? Yeah, he’s hosin’ the hound here but probably lives in constant fear of being tossed out on his ear. Great huh?

 
Comment by caveat_emptor
2008-05-12 09:35:09

Well, if he could put ~%50 down he’d be in the ballpark.

Comment by DinOR
2008-05-12 11:07:21

caveat_emptor,

Had he a dollar in equity they would’ve foreclosed long ago. Funny I was just listening in on CNBC and they were talking about all of the arson going on by FB’s and also all of the vehicles they’re finding in rivers and lakes. I mean when a home “catches fire” the day before it goes to the courthouse steps..?

Comment by caveat_emptor
2008-05-12 12:13:17

Interesting how putting money down (and thus having equity) would be to your disadvantage in this situation. But, I think you’re exactly right.

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Comment by Jon
2008-05-12 09:24:50

“The study, from Zillow, showed homeowners who bought a house in the last year run a 71% chance your mortgage is upside down. If your home was bought in the last two years, the likelihood of your mortgage being upside down jumps to 77%.”

And if you bought yesterday, the likelihood of your mortgage being upside down jumps to 100%!

Comment by Bad Andy
2008-05-12 09:29:21

“And if you bought yesterday, the likelihood of your mortgage being upside down jumps to 100%!”

Depends on who’s buying and where. I’ve watched the foreclosures selling for mid 1990’s levels in Palm Beach Counties. Tax records show sale 1 $128,000…sale 2 $377,000…sale 3 $115,000. Will this person be under water? Not in the near term anyway. Sales prices are falling much faster than the median prices they spew would indicate.

Comment by taxmeupthebooty
2008-05-12 09:42:08

you got to be shtin me
I though FL was 2003-4 pricing
which makes them the “epicenter” so far

Comment by Bad Andy
2008-05-12 09:58:40

“you got to be shtin me..”

Nope. Wouldn’t do that to you. That why I don’t know how it’s possible that the median stays so high. Houses that were built in 2003-2004 are selling below their preconstruction pricing.

Banks show no mercy. Get it off the books, move on. That’s why these houses are selling so cheap. Houses in my neighorhood (late 80’s early 90’s) sold for $90,000 to start brand new. At the peak of the mess they could command $379,000. Today, a foreclosure in need of some help will fetch $110,000 to start. One in good shape will fetch $125,000 to start. A privately marketed home allowed to sit on the market will fetch $140,000 to start.

Plain and simple 1990’s prices, and that’s just one neighborhood of many.

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Comment by DinOR
2008-05-12 09:49:40

Bad Andy,

Thanks for pointing that out. I was ’somewhat’ forced into buying in mid ‘07 ( long story ) and suffice to say the seller was very disappointed. When you’re talking condos ( regular.. condos not “upscale”/high-end/high rise ) you’re typically working on a much smaller scale. In the 2 1/2 years I bubble sat in same said unit ( for basically the cost of HOA’s + taxes ) they did numerous repairs and TONS of landscaping. I know they visualized 275k but I talked them down to 206k. Quite a bit of talking actually. Even though the bubble arrived late ( and lingered longer ) in OR, I took the pains to periodically make a low-ball offer to the owner to make sure he understood.. “I” didn’t see the same luxurious pricing “he” imagined. Since he had numerous other RE fires to put out he quickly agreed.

I’d actually had 2 other rentals sold out from underneath me and this was w/ 5 weeks to go to our daughter’s wedding. I can only hope fellow bubble-sitters understand?

Comment by taxmeupthebooty
2008-05-12 10:01:43

you’ll make out fine- at the rate big gov is going to REFLATE” RE with no one complaining it will at least beat holding pessos

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Comment by crisrose
2008-05-12 10:59:28

There will be no real estate reflation without massive wage inflation. I don’t see any evidence of that and doubt we will.

I’d hang on to some pesos - last I looked that’s all you can use to pay the grocer, doctor, gas station, tax man…

 
 
Comment by Bad Andy
2008-05-12 10:28:43

People who bought a house or condo simply to live in based on what they could afford will all be just fine. I bought for less than rent at the end of 2006. Paid $225K for a home that would have went for $379K during the insane days of 2003-2005. Today I’m down $40K on paper which is a little less than my down payment. If I have to sell in any less than 10 years I’ll probably take a loss, any more than that I’ll better than break even.

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Comment by DinOR
2008-05-12 11:01:15

Bad Andy,

Be it 206k or 225k these are numbers that ultimately can… be paid off! I suppose we would have more to worry about had we purchased $1mil homes for 750k? ( that now cannot be sold for 500k? ). This early knife-catcher’s equity has already eroded more than either of us owe in total. Trust me I’m not happy about what unfolded but… when it comes right down to it there are certainly worse things that could’ve happened. I’d have been much more content on the sidelines but like I’ve said before, bubble-sitting isn’t as easy as it looks. Especially w/ panicked/frantic “owners” trying desperately to limit their exposure and damage control.

 
Comment by Bad Andy
2008-05-12 11:54:49

“…these are numbers that ultimately can… be paid off!”

For you and me perhaps. There were a lot of people earning $10 per hour that went into homes in the $200’s in the middle of the ghetto. They will never be able to pay those loans off.

I’m big on cash. The more cash you have, the better you are in the end. People like to talk about the stock market a lot on this board one even told me I was cherry picking to use the NASDAQ as an example of poor stock planning. If I invested $1.00 at the peak, today it would still be worth only about $0.55 nearly a decade later. The DOW would be much closer to the $1.00 initially invested from peak to most recent peak (granted much higher if you bought recent lows).

 
 
 
 
Comment by Ann
2008-05-12 15:12:19

Zillow is horrible and way behind in regards to its appraised values..checked homes in my old neighborhood against MLS..they are off by about 10-15%…

Also, this study doesn’t take into account all those that are underwater in Fl from HELCO from 04-07…they numbers must be staggering!!!

 
 
Comment by palmetto
2008-05-12 12:02:03

“Carrie and Karl Stairs, who live with their children in a historic building near the West End Trading Co. in Sanford, one of the clubs cited, say they are putting their home on the market because of all the changes.”

That’s a very sad story, these folks were there for 14 years and had their home wrecked by a stupid decision on the part of local officials. I lived in Sanford for like two months back in 2005 and came screaming back to this part of Florida. I don’t know what’s wrong with the people there. The lady at the Chamber of Commerce couldn’t string two words together and gave out false information that the AutoTrain was shut down. The best way to describe Sanford is that it’s like a turd in somewhat attractive gift wrap. It looks like a charming old Florida town on a charming old lake and many of the business people seem jes’ oh so nahss, but they’ve got the knife out for ya.

 
Comment by Fuzzy Bear
2008-05-12 12:12:01

“‘I didn’t read the papers,’ Wilson said.”

Guilty! Ignorance of the law is not a defensible excuse!

Comment by FreedomLover
2008-05-12 12:38:44

It is according to the touchy-feely crowd. Personal responsibility is a code-word for racism, sexism, homophobia, etc…

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-05-12 13:52:49

How is “homophobia” or “sexism” related to “personal responsibility”?

You think people have a choice in whether to be an underpaid woman, or to be gay or being born black?

Please! You’re the ultimate moron. You belong to the school that got duped by the “gods and gays” Republicans. They raped your economic @ss, and left you high and dry.

ENJOY!

 
Comment by End of Empire
2008-05-12 14:43:43

What is it with Americans these days? EVERYTHING has to be filtered through the polarized lens of politics. So the housing bubble is now the fault of “touchy-feely” liberals? Newsflash for you: There are plenty of conservatives who profited and fueled this scam, and plenty who were caught up in it.

Comment by SaladSD
2008-05-12 15:56:04

We’ve been in the grip of congenital cheerleaders. Here no evil, see no evil, as long as the status quo favors them.

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Comment by Brian in Chicago
2008-05-12 13:46:55

Ignorance of the law is not a defensible excuse

In the real world that’s not entirely true. In criminal law, the law must be a strict liability law or ignorance of the law is a defensible excuse!

 
 
Comment by FreedomLover
2008-05-12 12:32:34

Bring back Fat Tony and his finger method. That would solve the mortgage crisis fast!

Comment by taxmeupthebooty
2008-05-12 12:49:37

I’d prefer the “beyyond Thunderdome” approach 2 men in
buyer and mort broker
one man out

 
 
Comment by Faraway
2008-05-12 17:16:38

This in today’s Atlanta Journal/Constitution:
http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/printedition/2008/05/12/assess.html
Excerpts:
For less than the price of a decent used car, you can buy a home in Atlanta today. Actually, real estate agents list a dozen choices for $10,000 or less. Step up in price to $20,000 and your choices expand 10 fold… Therein lies the problem for tax assessors… seven of Atlanta’s least-expensive homes are listed on average for $8,800 but taxed at an average value of nearly $93,000. The cheapest, at 336 Adelle Street in the Lakewood area, comes in at $5,900. Tax records list its value at $101,700..The agent said when tax values and true values are way apart, it can keep properties from selling and further depress values… had a $95,000 deal on a duplex fall through recently because it was being taxed at $300,000. The buyer didn’t want to be saddled with taxes at that level… home sold in March 2004 for $305,000 and then in August 2004 for $700,000. It tumbled to $122,900 in a sale last year. It sold recently for $51,000.

Comment by Paul in Jax
2008-05-12 19:37:28

These aren’t houses; they’re passive suicide chambers.

 
 
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