A Vacant-House Graveyard In Florida
The St Petersburg Times reports from Florida. “‘At first, as in all these gambling mania, everyone gained … A golden bait hung temptingly out before the people and, one after another, they rushed to the tulip marts, like flies around a honey pot.’ Charles Mackay, Memoirs of Extraordinary Popular Delusions and Madness of a Crowd (1843).”
“Doesn’t it seem familiar? It did to me last week, driving through Royal Highlands and thinking back to three years ago, to May 2005, when demand for real estate in the Tampa Bay area reached its peak.”
“Speculators were everywhere back then, of course, but nowhere in Hernando did their fever seem as much like a ‘popular delusion’ as in Royal Highlands, a 36-year-old subdivision that sprawls across northwest Hernando.”
“‘I always describe it as putting a ham bone in a pool of piranhas,’ said June Gulbrandsen, owner of Windward Realty near Royal Highlands.”
“Vacant parcels on the market for as little as $2,000 five years ago sold for 10 times that amount a year later. The following year, the average price for the 1,924 lots sold in Royal Highlands climbed to $38,386, according to the county Property Appraiser’s Office.”
“So who got stuck? The amateurs, especially those from out of state, who paid builders for houses that often depreciated more than $50,000 by the time they were completed, said Jeanne Gavish, a Land O’Lakes real estate broker.”
“‘Royal Highlands has loads and loads and loads of vacant houses,’ Gavish said. ‘It’s like a vacant-house graveyard.’”
“The speculation-driven market pushed up property taxes. It led to the current housing collapse in the county - where only 140 permits have been issued this year - that dragged down nearly every other sector of the economy.”
“‘Hundreds who, a few months previously had doubted there was such a thing as poverty in the land, suddenly found themselves in possession of a few bulbs nobody would buy (and) the cry of distress resounded everywhere.’ - Mackay.”
“For April, Florida led the nation for the largest month-over-month drop in employment levels. From March to April, the state lost 25,300 jobs. Michigan, meanwhile, shed 18,600 positions over the month.”
“‘It’s certainly not a position we’re used to,’ said Rebecca Rust, economist with Florida’s Agency for Workforce Innovation. ‘We’ve been a leader in job creation for most of the last decade because of the construction boom. When you’re up so high, you have farther to fall.’”
“Florida actually had the highest number of month-over-month job losses five times since January 2007.”
“Sean Snaith, an economist with the University of Central Florida…said it wasn’t helpful to get hung up on Florida’s sudden appearance in the loser’s column with Michigan.”
“‘There are some real structural problems affecting that state and they’ve been in dire straits much longer,’ Snaith said of Michigan, where unemployment is 6.9 percent. ‘Our problems are more a cyclical function of the insane real estate market we’ve been in. Once we get out of 2008, things will start to brighten.’”
The News Press. “In Lee County, 17,300 of 245,405 homes are financed by subprime loans. Carol and Robert Rommel bought a condominium in Bell Tower Park in south Fort Myers in September 2005 for $390,000 with a subprime loan. As prices dropped, they decided they could afford a house in Reflection Lakes.”
“But the condo didn’t sell and now they’re struggling to cover two mortgages. They can’t even refinance the condo loan because they’d have to pay a $10,000 early-out penalty, common under subprime terms.”
“‘What we’re getting is a lot of them come through the door that there’s not enough equity and there’s nothing we can do,’ said said Vincent Patti, VP of Fort Myers-based First Capital Lending.”
“Their best bet is to throw themselves on the mercy of the lender, Patti said. ‘I have seen a lot of the lenders stretching the terms for the reset,’ he said. ‘If it looks like it can be done, they’ll extend the two years or three years. It’s happened to me personally on an investment property.’”
“For many, going to the bank would be an exercise in futility, said Robbie Roepstorff, president of Edison National Bank in Fort Myers.”
“Edison and most other local banks didn’t do subprime loans during the boom - it was the big banks like Countrywide and Bank of America - and the local banks aren’t getting any demand to refinance them now, she said.”
“‘When banks impose conservative, reasonable underwriting standards on someone who got into a subprime mortgage when fog on a mirror qualified you, and so many were self-employed and now are unemployed, independent contractors, that’s the kiss of death,’ said said Charles Costello, a real estate and mortgage broker in Fort Myers.”
“One bank, he said, recently asked a prospective lender for three years of pay stubs to prove a steady income.”
“Getting the lender to give you a better deal can be problematic as well, Costello said, because most subprimes were bundled up into mortgage-backed securities by Wall Street and sold to investors.”
“‘It’s difficult to modify a loan because nobody has the authority to do that,’ he said. ‘Because of the securitization, they’re sliced and diced, a piece owned all over the globe.’”
“The Rommels haven’t given up on selling their condo. ‘We’re willing to bring money to the table,’ Carol said. ‘We’ll take it out of our savings.’”
The Miami Herald. “Eastern Financial Florida Credit Union has survived hurricanes, recessions and the demise of its namesake airline. But now bad loans made during the housing boom have South Florida’s largest credit union reeling.”
“A $30 million loan for a waterside West Palm Beach condo project that never got built and went into foreclosure. The credit union lost $68.9 million last year — financial results that one trade journal called the worst ever for the industry. Eastern’s president and CEO resigned.”
“A banking industry ad campaign highlighting the losses at Eastern and other credit unions helped scuttle a federal deregulation bill this month that would have further erased the distinctions between banks and credit unions.”
“‘This will become the poster child for why credit unions should not be allowed to stray far from their traditional lending powers,’ said Miami bank analyst Kenneth Thomas.”
The Sun Sentinel. “At the end of April, almost 41,000 condos were listed for sale in Palm Beach and Broward counties, according to data from Coldwell Banker Residential Real Estate. Based on the current monthly sales pace, it would take roughly five years to sell all those condos if no new units came onto the market. Experts point to a huge number of still-unfinished condos that will keep a lid on prices for at least a year.”
“At the end of the first quarter, there were more than 30,000 unfinished condos in South Florida, 80 percent of them in Miami-Dade County, according to Metrostudy.”
“During the housing boom of 2000 to 2005, speculators bought condos at pre-construction prices and watched the units rise in value before having to close on the deals. But not enough long-term owners bought condos, leaving investors on the hook with empty units.”
“Some of the investors have tried to use loopholes in the sales contracts to get out of closing on the deals, while others are falling into foreclosure. And owners living in the condos are tiring of expensive maintenance costs and special assessments.”
“‘I used to show buyers six condos; now I show them 20,’ said Elaine Russell, a broker associate in Boca Raton. ‘They want the very best deal. If sellers are not motivated, I tell them, ‘Don’t even bother to list it.’”
“Two years ago, a two-bedroom condo at One City Plaza in West Palm Beach would have fetched $400,000 or more. Today, prices are in the $280,000 range. ‘That’s just the list price,” said Kendra Radicchi, a West Palm Beach agent. ‘What they sell for is typically much lower.’”
“In Fort Lauderdale, condos at Las Olas Beach Club that were selling for more than $1 million now are going for $750,000 to $800,000.”
“A townhouse on Northeast Second Avenue that was on the market in 2006 for $599,000 is listed for $214,500, a 64 percent discount. And a condo on North Ocean Boulevard that two years ago was listed at $899,000 is available for $479,900, a 47 percent cut.”
“Some offers are ‘almost embarrassingly low,’ said Pompano Beach agent Randy Bates, president of the Realtor Association of Greater Fort Lauderdale. Insulted, owners reject the bids, only to field subsequent offers just as low, Bates said.”
“One of his clients listed a three-bedroom Lauderdale-by-the-Sea condo for $1.4 million. The owner turned down several offers for two years before finally selling it for $1.05 million. Another of Bates’ clients listed a Lauderdale-by-the-Sea condo for $799,000 two years ago, only to sell it recently for $550,000.”
“‘A lot of these units selling at bargain prices have been on the market for a year or two, and their owners are just now realizing that the market is not going to turn around,’ Bates said. ‘They figure they’re better off taking the deal on the table, even though it’s not the best deal.’”
The Orlando Sentinel. “More than 200,000 subprime mortgages were issued across the region from 2004 through 2006, the Sentinel analysis found. That is about three of every 10 mortgages made during the three years studied.”
“Only eight of the top 100 U.S. census tracts with the most subprime loans in Central Florida are in low-income, urban areas such as Pine Hills and Azalea Park, according to the analysis. The rest are in suburban communities such as Avalon Park, Celebration, Winter Garden, Deltona, Poinciana and the Four Corners area near Disney World.”
“The stampede to the suburbs, which resulted in about $30 billion worth of subprimes in a seven-county area, was triggered by Wall Street’s desire at the time for high-return investments based on the high-risk mortgages, according to a former senior economist with the Federal Reserve.”
“‘There were just not enough people in inner cities to allow subprimes to grow into a really significant portion of the mortgage market,’ said Anthony Pennington-Cross, the former Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis economist.”
“All seven counties in the region — Brevard, Lake, Orange, Osceola, Polk, Seminole and Volusia — ranked in the top third of Florida counties in the number of subprime loans issued from 2004-06.”
“‘There are too many’ subprimes in Central Florida, said Larry Tobin, CEO of Orlando-based Fairwinds Credit Union. ‘It is certainly not going to be this year that we will be able to work through all that. It is definitely going to be years.’”
“Martin and Linda Conroy bought a four-bedroom, three-bath home about three years ago in the Four Corners section of Lake County. Their lender was BNC Mortgage, a subsidiary of Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc., a global investment bank that during the housing boom was among the leaders in packaging subprime loans into securities for sale to big-time investors.”
“BNC gave the Conroys a $300,000 mortgage. The retired firefighter and his wife say they don’t know whether their loan is subprime, though it possesses many of the characteristics associated with one. ‘I was under the impression it was a fixed rate,’ Martin Conroy said of the mortgage.”
“Not until adjustable-rate loans became a regular subject of news reports did the Conroys reread their loan documents and discover they had one. They quickly put their house up for sale, but not a single person has come to see it in six months, they say.”
“One problem is that their home is sandwiched between a house already repossessed by its lender and another that has been vacant and for sale for about a year. The lender on the foreclosed neighbor was another Lehman Brothers mortgage unit that was renamed Lehman Mortgage Capital a couple of weeks after Lehman Brothers shut down BNC Mortgage.”
“While waiting for a buyer, Martin Conroy has taken a part-time job as a bus driver at Walt Disney World to generate extra income. But this is not how the couple envisioned their Central Florida retirement.”
“‘What we really need to do is downsize,’ Linda Conroy said. ‘Have a smaller place and half the mortgage.’”
‘Vacant parcels on the market for as little as $2,000 five years ago sold for 10 times that amount a year later. The following year, the average price for the 1,924 lots sold in Royal Highlands climbed to $38,386′
Funny how the ‘bubbles just happen’ posters have disappeared. This housing bubble is bigger and more wide spread than any financial mania in the history of the world. IMO, it will be reflected on much longer than the tulip mania.
Well. the second half of the year will be great. Bubbles just happen- just a little bump in the road. How can a few foreclosures trip up an economic superpower like the US. This little housing blemish will not tarinsh the sparkling jewel that is America. Everybody get out there and do something patriotic like buy a bombed-out foreclosure in a planned luxury community near you. Lets make this country great again.
Once upon a time you dressed so fine
You threw the bums a dime in your prime, didn’t you?
People’d call, say, “Beware doll, you’re bound to fall”
You thought they were all kiddin’ you
You used to laugh about
Everybody that was hangin’ out
Now you don’t talk so loud
Now you don’t seem so proud
About having to be scrounging for your next meal.
How does it feel
How does it feel
To be without a home
Like a complete unknown
Like a rolling stone?
You’ve gone to the finest school all right, Miss Lonely
But you know you only used to get juiced in it
And nobody has ever taught you how to live on the street
And now you find out you’re gonna have to get used to it
You said you’d never compromise
With the mystery tramp, but now you realize
He’s not selling any alibis
As you stare into the vacuum of his eyes
And ask him do you want to make a deal?
How does it feel
How does it feel
To be on your own
With no direction home
Like a complete unknown
Like a rolling stone?
You never turned around to see the frowns on the jugglers and the clowns
When they all come down and did tricks for you
You never understood that it ain’t no good
You shouldn’t let other people get your kicks for you
You used to ride on the chrome horse with your diplomat
Who carried on his shoulder a Siamese cat
Ain’t it hard when you discover that
He really wasn’t where it’s at
After he took from you everything he could steal.
How does it feel
How does it feel
To be on your own
With no direction home
Like a complete unknown
Like a rolling stone?
Princess on the steeple and all the pretty people
They’re drinkin’, thinkin’ that they got it made
Exchanging all kinds of precious gifts and things
But you’d better lift your diamond ring, you’d better pawn it babe
You used to be so amused
At Napoleon in rags and the language that he used
Go to him now, he calls you, you can’t refuse
When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose
You’re invisible now, you got no secrets to conceal.
How does it feel
How does it feel
To be on your own
With no direction home
Like a complete unknown
Like a rolling stone?
“This housing bubble is bigger and more wide spread than any financial mania in the history of the world.”
Agreed and most should have seen it. These subdivisions like Royal Highlands are called paper subdivisions because the owner takes the plans on paper and just starts drawing lines. Most of these paper subdivisions are left vacant after decades of speculation. Look at the Viking Subdivision in Okeechobee County as an example. About 5% developed and 95% owned by private parties who paid as much as $40,000 per acre.
In Palm Beach County we have paper subdivisions dating back to the 1920’s. The county took most of them back for very little $$$ back in the early 90’s. Don’t speculate on vacant land in Florida. It’s almost always a losing bet!
“‘Hundreds who, a few months previously had doubted there was such a thing as poverty in the land, suddenly found themselves in possession of a few bulbs nobody would buy (and) the cry of distress resounded everywhere.’ - Mackay.”
I wonder if this guy enjoyed watching the tulip bubble pop as much as I’m enjoying watching the lending/housing bubble pop?
Because I am all in a fever of joy, and having a grand ol’ time. Think of all the forests and wetlands that might not be paved over and replaced with ugly ticky tacky McCrapboxes! Think of all the boo-hooing builders and developers, once so greedy and now so sad. Sniff, sniff…ahhhh…it’s like sweet sweet nectar.
He lived a little late to watch the tulip bubble first-hand. But his book is great (and I recommend adding a copy to your understuffed bookshelves.)
For those that haven’t read it: You will learn nearly nothing about the mechanics of bubbles that you haven’t already learned on this blog. What was interesting for me was the similarity between the various types of bubbles over the past 400 years.
It’s also a great historical cautionary tale to keep in your mind when you hear about yet another “great investment opportunity!”, whether it be real estate, dot-com stocks, or whatever the hot-thing-de-jour is. (Right now it may be commodities, so be careful.)
(I remember muttering throughout the late 90s whenever anyone tried to get me into dot-com stocks “hasn’t anyone heard of tulip bulbs?”)
“This housing bubble is bigger and more wide spread than any financial mania in the history of the world. IMO, it will be reflected on much longer than the tulip mania.”
That says a lot, considering that we’re still reflecting on the tulip mania hundreds of years later.
Of course, the reason we remember it was because it is the poster child for rampant speculation on something without inherent value.
Ben,
I’d watched a similar run-up while tracking the Big Island. Even as late as 2003 you could get an unimproved lot for about 2 or 3 grand. Then all of a sudden they were 30-50k! You can usually count me among the “it’s a LAND bubble” crowd and I think more and more that is getting borne out?
Just outside of Portland, OR lots in “upscale” developments peaked out at 150k. Mind you that’s about 3 times what I paid for my 1st HOUSE in the late 80’s! SDC’s inflated accordingly so I suppose as I go to make lowball offers I’ll have to stipulate that I AM… making FULL price offer on their “home” ( it’s just the lot it’s sitting on that I’m discounting! ) If that helps?
In honor of all of this I have made a grand decision.
I’m going to plant some tulips in the front flower box.
Any idea which varieties are good in heavy sunlight?
May I suggest ‘Semper Augustus’? For a mere 6,000 florins!
The tulip bubble & other bubbles of yore were confined to one or 2 countries, but this gargantuan enveloped the entire industrialized world intertwined in one way or another.
We are witnessing history
Oh. We are going to experience history too.
There are JTs for all.
Might be in food riots.
Might be in surpisingly high taxes.
Might be in dollar collapse.
people watch the housing market for the same reason they watch auto racing….they like to see crash and burn baaaabeeee.
This housing bubble is bigger and more wide spread than any financial mania in the history of the world.
More along the lines of the 1926 housing bubble that burst and helped create the run on the banks that led to the great depression. Only this time there will not be a depression, just significant financial loses by major banks and individuals who will be financially ruined.
And there will not be a depression?
Why?
Why not a greater, more severe, more gut-wrenching and knock -your-teeth-out-with-a- crow bar Mother of all Great Depressions?
Because of all the charm, style, and esteem of the FB’s out there?
Look, we got a denial crew right here on this blog still. “We never saw a bubble so prices won’t fall”.
A Vacant-House Graveyard In Florida
Tell me some really scary Florida ghost town stories…
Like how you were afraid to go near a condo development because all the lights were off at night, and occasionally you’ll see the ghost of flipper (the real estate kind, not the dolphin)
What you needed to do was read the contract before you initialled it.
They were speculators, plain and simple. What did they need such a big house for during their “retirement”?
Maybe the construction industry will have a revival by offering to chop Mcmansions into four or more pieces and move them to vacant lots nearby. New TV show: ‘Divide this House!’
This is inevitable.
howz about a new TV survivor series. a bunch of FB’s stuck together in a McMansion. what will they do to see who gets to keep the house?
what will they do to see who gets to keep the house?
Did you mean “who HAS to keep the house”?
whooops….how’s this…what will they do to see who gets to keep the house under the barney-dudd bailout plan for FB’s?
Oooh oooh oooh. I like this idea.
The loser has to pay the mortgage. A reverse elimination process.
And there’s a chainsaw hidden somewhere.
And a full functioning fancy kitchen with those granite countertops and stainless steel kitchens and all the accoutrements, and fancy olive oils and porcini mushrooms.
Hmmmm … why did my devious mind go there logically after chainsaws?
Better yet……a whole neighborhood of FBs/HELOCed-up-the-wazoo people. Shouldn’t be too difficult to find.
Winner is the FB that gets out from under his house and mortgage, with the smallest hit to his net worth.
The “winner” gets his outstanding debts paid off.
The losers……..just lose.
‘Hmmmm … why did my devious mind go there logically after chainsaws?’
Gosh, I’m not sure I want to know.
Faster/pressboardbox,
Surely one of the more quizzical aspects of the bubble?
“The Ever Growing “Downsize” Home”!
My grandparents from Chicago retired to St. Pete in the 70’s to a single-wide and seemed perfectly happy. They certainly could have afforded more but for the two of them was more than adequate. How did this get so out of control?
The thinking that “He who dies with the most toys wins.” You know. America at its finest.
I still like trailers, if the park isn’t a dump. But its seems like the 55+ parks are insisting on doublewides for the sake of image I guess. Why? I like the long skinnies because you can have the master bed at one end and the deaf spouse with the loud TV at the other.
“‘What we really need to do is downsize,’ Linda Conroy said. ‘Have a smaller place and half the mortgage.’”
Genius. I was driving around my little corner of Planet Florida yesterday and was struck by the number of rather large homes. They are just delivery systems for energy company profits.
And here’s a little nugget from the Sunday Tampa Trib about the “My Safe Home” program.
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/may/17/hurricane-grant-program-ineffective-homeowners-say/
Here’s a Tribune article from this weekend about code enforcement issues in West Tampa: illegal renting out of rooms, converting warehouses to multi-family dwellings, etc. Whether done legally or illegally, one thing I believe is going to change in coming years is that most of us are going to have a lot less living space. We’re going to have to do better at respecting each other and getting along, among other culturally-neglected attributes. I haven’t lived here all my life, and I’m only a member of the maligned “Generation X,” but in my opinion we have never had more jerks in this country than now.
http://tinyurl.com/6fw43c
snake charmer,
Can’t speak for everybody but it seems to me each and every time this country goes through a heyday people get a little more demanding in their standard of living. At least during… said heyday everyone is content if not impatient.
Then… welcome to the economic down-turn! This is where the assumed standard of living evaporates and all of us making 50k a year think we’re entitled to millionnaire’s lifestyle. When we don’t get it, we get a little meaner each cycle. It just seems so typical here in OR. During the good times everyone runs out and gets toys OTA and then find they can’t afford to put gas in them and they need to take that angst out on “someone”. And in this case b/c you happen to be in the checkout line behind them or door-dinged for having the misfortune of being parked NEXT to them, well that someone would be you!
I also read an article recently that referred to Wesley Chapel as “trendy.” Better buy there, prices can only go up!
That area is impacted with a significant amount of speculator/flipper properties. Most are owned by used home sellers.
The stories my mother told me about the Depression echo these “new” scams. Their family rented homes from “agents”, then someone from the bank (or the real owner) would knock on the door, so they’d move again.
Six kids, dogs, cats, chickens and parents would find another house in Ferndale, or Berkley, Michigan during her youth.
NOT a new idea, just recycled (some of these homes even had outhouses!).
smaller place & half the mortgage? Close, but to really make retirement work I think you need the mortgage paid off.
rally,
In the words of the Great David Lerah, “If you are a person with a fully paid off home I’d say you were a person that didn’t manage your finances very well!”
Leverage was the order of the day. Here’s one thing I ‘may’ plan on myself. I saw one client do it and it appears to be working for her. She has about a 60k mortgage left on her… 250k (and dropping home) SO.. she took out a 30 yr. mortgage on her 60k and will have payments of about $279.00 a month. Since that’s cheaper than most HOA’s I think she did the right thing. It will also allow her to totally bulk up her 401k during her last 2 years in the workforce as well as add to her savings.
If you can’t have a fully paid-off mortgage this is the next best thing.
Here’s a little quote from the Tampa Tribune this past Sunday, by David Gee, Hillsborough County Sheriff:
“I don’t think the public realizes sometimes how much we are on the edge; how close we come sometimes to anarchy. I don’t think they realize how dangerous society has become.”
Florida will be once again be the flash point that it was in the aftermath of the 2000 presidential election, but this time it’s going to show the rest of the country what to expect, as we fall to the level of a dumb beast…
I totally agree with David Gee. If the public really knew what happens every day on the streets, it would scare the hell out of them!
I know first hand having served as a police officer/paramedic while I was in college. You could see this coming back in the early eighties. Most of the major things that happened on the street were in the nicer areas, not the inner city which does have significant crime.
I remember telling people years ago that the Rodney King riots in LA demonstrated just how thin the veneer of civilization really is. I lived in North San Diego county at the time and the locals were very nervous that the riots would make it down to “paradise”.
I was judging an event at a track meet in a town 10 miles east of Los Angeles when a strange rain of ashes started falling on me during the Rodney King riots. I felt like how Germans must have felt when the rain of human ashes fell on them.
There are still a lot of people down here who think its about to turn around ….
Although, I have noticed as the snow birds leave suddenly they are chopping big chunks off their asking prices
Plenty of people here in mile high country who labor under that delusion as well. Nevermind that there are no high paying jobs. Nevermind that foodbank pantries are bare. Nevermind that there are more homeless people than ever sleeping in our church basement. Nevermind that the local car dealerships were ghost towns this Saturday (I was there). Everything is OK and the rebound is imminent.
My wife has a realtor friend of many years, and she has basically given up and started looking for a job.
“‘At first, as in all these gambling mania, everyone gained … A golden bait hung temptingly out before the people and, one after another, they rushed to the tulip marts, like flies around a honey pot.’ Charles Mackay, Memoirs of Extraordinary Popular Delusions and Madness of a Crowd (1843).”
Tulipfoolery from the 1630’s don’t sound too dissimilar to events of our time…
Basic human nature never varies~
Speaking of BAIT, the Nation needs some fresh bait.
Slaughter some more FB and GFs…we have a nation of hungry ALLIGATORS to feed here
“For April, Florida led the nation for the largest month-over-month drop in employment levels. From March to April, the state lost 25,300 jobs. Michigan, meanwhile, shed 18,600 positions over the month.”
“‘It’s certainly not a position we’re used to,’ said Rebecca Rust, economist with Florida’s Agency for Workforce Innovation. ‘We’ve been a leader in job creation for most of the last decade because of the construction boom. When you’re up so high, you have farther to fall.’”
Well, we’re Number One with a bullet! If Florida’s job creation came from the construction boom, we’ve got nowhere to go but down. I predict we’ll be holding the number one spot for a long, long time to come.
Hare Club:
The race is long and you might have the lead now, but slow and steady wins the race…
Tortoisely yours,
HELOCalifornia
The Florida economy was based solely on people selling condos to each other. Anyone who thought there was some real economic growth there was foolish.
“Anyone who thought there was some real economic growth there was foolish.”
I have to disagree with you. Since the 1950’s Florida has had real growth in the service and financial services sector. The 2000-2005 hyper-building mode created jobs in the construction and real estate sector and supplemented the financial services sector. Because of the hyper-building, those jobs are the ones that will evaporate first. Once FL becomes an affordable option for retirees again, we’ll begin adding service and financial services jobs again. The hope that I have is that the cycle won’t take 30 years to complete as it did the last time.
“Once FL becomes an affordable option for retirees again, we’ll begin adding service and financial services jobs again.”
Andy, I enjoy your posts, but I don’t think Florida will ever again be an affordable option for retirees. I just don’t see how, with the insurance, taxes and energy costs. Those don’t look to be going down anytime soon, even if housing costs decline. I think Bill in Carolina has shown how the Florida retiree has to go elsewhere to maintain the lifestyle. Not to mention the fact that in some areas, formerly safe and secure retirement communities are having problems with gangbangers, like parts of Sun City Center over here.
“I don’t think Florida will ever again be an affordable option for retirees.”
It has no choice but to be. I’ll agree that your traditional retirmement havens may be out of the race over the short to mid-term, you’ll start to see new old people oasis areas again. Maybe it will be Sebring/Lake Placid which didn’t quite get so exploited during the 2000-2005 real estate boom. Maybe someone will bring something up out of the swamp. I don’t know, but it’s bound to happen.
As long as tax rates stay where they are and insurance doesn’t have a large spike again, those fix themselves when you’ve got homes selling in the $60’s and $70’s again. Tax burden around $1,000 per year and insurance burden right about the same, you’re talking about less than $200 per month. That’s less than or the same as the areas they are retiring from.
I could be an optimist but the trends from the past show that again and again people look to FL for retirement for overall value. It will probably take another 5 - 7 years before word gets out that prices are cheap again.
I agree. In the ’70’s & ’80’s, a lot of Florida was populated by retiring working class folks from up north who had made good money & had good pensions from their unions. That entire class of people is gone.
What’s left will be some upper middle class folks. That’s fine but their are far too few of them to keep the ever expanding population working to service them.
Florida is in for about a 10 year, slow moving, train-wreck.
“Florida is in for about a 10 year, slow moving, train-wreck.”
Could not have said it better myself. 10 years will bring pain, sorrow, and unemployment. After that the trend will be back. I never said it would be a fast transition.
I agree Andy. Maybe not $60-70’s, but certainly in the low 100’s. Some of those, brand new, late 1990’s homes bought for 90 thousand, were priced from 300-400. Good homes in good areas with $2,000/yr taxes and SOH protection, is good retirement security. Not there yet though. And can the gov’t survive on those tax dollars? thats the key to FL future.
That was Tampa’s niche — back office operations for banks, credit card issuers, and the like. Obviously, not the kind of jobs that would enable a lifestyle of the rich and famous, but a person could make $30,000 per year and have a decent benefits package.
I remember back in the ’80’s a retirey could buy a little 2/1 CBS out in Century Village for $50K….I also remember coming across the Woolworth bridge in Boynton Beach, and seeing a sea of white roofs to the west….All ticky-tacky retirement houses stuck 10-15 ft apart….
There probably NOW all still there, priced a little higher….
Florida, has lost it’s attraction, as a “CHEAP” retirement mecca…That’s why we sold, and moved to W.N. Carolina…
My annual taxes are what a lot of people pay for monthly rent….and I’ve got a nice place…and would never think of moving back….Florida, is a PARADISE LOST
reuven, I’ve never understood it. In one of Ben’s Florida summaries on this blog, some idiot somewhere in the state said our number one industry is “growth”. Now, how do we sell “growth” to each other? Unless he was talking about cancer…
“Growth” as an industry: Recently there was a quote somewhere from the Head Economist of the Arizona Land Bureau or some such agency:
“Growth is to Phoenix is like Automobiles are to Detroit.”
A frightening doppleganger of that quote about Florida “being different” from Michigan because they have “structural problems”. Where did most Floridians come from anyways? And where are (were) those pension checks written?
From Detroit but live in Cleveland. And I love it here - a well-kept secret!
Marquis Dee
I’ll buy yours if you buy mine, ok? But we gotta make sure we each pay more than they are worth and in a few months we can do it again for an even higher price. We are going to be sooooo rich!!!!
This was exactly my observation. Sure, I guess there are some non-housing jobs, like some military contractors, etc. But not enough to make much of a difference…
“I guess there are some non-housing jobs, like some military contractors, etc. But not enough to make much of a difference…”
Reuven, it’s still not bad enough for qualified individuals to come into my office for work. I’ve used temp services, newspaper and internet ads, and referrals. There are a lot of jobs out there. The former real estate agents and mortgage brokers just need to have a reality check on what work actually pays. You aren’t going to make $100,000 per year in my office by putting in a solid 12 hours per week.
“Sean Snaith, an economist with the University of Central Florida…said it wasn’t helpful to get hung up on Florida’s sudden appearance in the loser’s column with Michigan.”
“‘There are some real structural problems affecting that state and they’ve been in dire straits much longer,’ Snaith said of Michigan, where unemployment is 6.9 percent. ‘Our problems are more a cyclical function of the insane real estate market we’ve been in. Once we get out of 2008, things will start to brighten.’”
Yup, just change that annoying 8 in 2008 to a 9 and all will be just fine in Florida! That 2-5 years of inventory will magically vanish.
Yeah things are cyclical in Florida - however probably not in the timeframe that Snaith would like. The last boom was 1926 - so that means the next boom should be… 2086. I doubt most of us will be around to see that.
“‘There are some real structural problems affecting that state and they’ve been in dire straits much longer,’ Snaith said of Michigan, where unemployment is 6.9 percent. ‘Our problems are more a cyclical function of the insane real estate market we’ve been in. Once we get out of 2008, things will start to brighten.’”
Sean Snaith also predicted the housing market would grow in 2008. Sean, get out of your Orlando office and see the real Florida, your missing the fun watching people suffer from the housing meltdown and jobs being sent offshore, along with the high inflation caused by oil and gas!
Along the lines of “it’s different here”, I was browsing Orlando-area real estate this weekend. I nearly moved there back in 2002 (so glad I dodged that bullet!). At the time, home prices were still affordable.
I decided to compare some current for sale prices to back then. What I discovered was that many homes do seem to be priced affordably once again. Maybe a little higher than 2002 prices, but still much lower than the height-of-the-boom values (which - in that area - seems to be 2006 / early 2007). A few examples (note that I got the sales data from zillow so I guess it could be somewhat inaccurate, but it seems to be correct when I look up known previous sales so…):
Last sale = 4/2/03 for $132,000
Peak “value” during boom = ~ $224,000 (in 2006)
Currently for sale at $105,000
http://orlando.craigslist.org/rfs/685152833.html
Built in 2004, Last sale = 11/1/04 for $162,400
Peak “value” during boom = ~ $270,000 (in 2006)
Currently for sale at $148,000
http://orlando.craigslist.org/rfs/684626762.html
Sale history:
8/29/01 = $120,000
6/24/05 = $220,000
Last sale = 6/9/06 for $260,000
Peak “value” during boom = ~ $264,000 (in 2006)
Currently for sale at $175,000
http://www.realtor.com/realestate/orlando-fl-32824-1098396889/
I have seen nothing like this in my area - prices all still ridiculously high. So I’m wondering if the bust is different in Florida than it will be here? Or is it just a matter of having to wait?
“‘Royal Highlands has loads and loads and loads of vacant houses,’ Gavish said. ‘It’s like a vacant-house graveyard.’”
Sounds like North Port in Sarasota County. I’d seen some ads on craigslist for lots in Royal Highlands and wondered where exactly it was, now I know. It would be interesting to compile a list of other subdivisions in Fla similar to North Port and Royal Highlands just to see how many there are. $2,000 is what those lots are really worth and yet craigslist still has them at wishing prices. Woweee! Seriously, we have NOT left the denial phase here in FLA.
“Some offers are ‘almost embarrassingly low,’…Insulted, owners reject the bids, only to field subsequent offers just as low, Bates said.”
Slowly, very slowly, reality is starting to sink in. There’ll be no “V” shaped recovery this time around.
BTW - funny anecdote from this weekend. Girlfriend and I were taking a walk and in a ped tunnel under the highway our conversation turned to my friend who just bought. Another couple was riding their bikes in the opposite direction and must have overheard our echoed words - becuase all of a sudden the woman blurted out - “you’re looking at the queen of buyer’s remorse here!”
When perfect strangers recognize boom/bust speak - we’re getting near the next leg down.
I watched some home shows last week, it still amazes me when ppl that bought a few years ago are told by the TV realtor that it went up 25% or so they get upset on the basis they were expecting more, as if they were entitled to over than 10% increases per year. Not that I believe it can sell for that price, but it really bugs me. I love the loss stories.
“While waiting for a buyer, Martin Conroy has taken a part-time job as a bus driver at Walt Disney World to generate extra income. But this is not how the couple envisioned their Central Florida retirement.”
“‘What we really need to do is downsize,’ Linda Conroy said. ‘Have a smaller place and half the mortgage.’”
I no longer need to show articles like this to my wife. Although she was initially unhappy with the downsizing and more importantly the down-costing we carried out in 2005, she now understands the consequences of what we did.
The house we are now in cost us less than half what we got for our Sarasota house in 2005 (we bought a foreclosure here). Even after repairs and updating, we have under $100/sq ft sunk cost. Property taxes at about 1/2% of value per year. Insurance at about 1/4% of the coverage amount. And no mortgage.
Tomorrow my wife will golf with the ladies league while I go to tennis. With the weather FINALLY starting to warm up, we’ll take the pontoon boat out for the first cruise of the season on Wednesday. Thursday it’s dinner at the club with the neighborhood group. Friday? Gosh, the calendar is empty on Friday. Oh wait, that will be a good day to clean house, to be ready for the guests who will arrive next week for a few days.
I feel sorry for the Conroys. If not for my aversion to hurricanes, we could be in the same (figurative) boat.
“Tomorrow my wife will golf with the ladies league while I go to tennis. With the weather FINALLY starting to warm up, we’ll take the pontoon boat out for the first cruise of the season on Wednesday. Thursday it’s dinner at the club with the neighborhood group. Friday? Gosh, the calendar is empty on Friday. Oh wait, that will be a good day to clean house, to be ready for the guests who will arrive next week for a few days.”
Living the Florida retiree lifestyle. Elsewhere.
Funny thing is no matter where we go in Sarasota/Bradenton area, whether it’s shopping or restaurants, it’s the retirees that are spending. Two years ago, the restaurants were swamped with younger folks. I think the majority of the seniors here bought before the boom and the bust isn’t hurting them like it is the younger crowd.
Yeah, I love how retirees complain about their fixed incomes, when so many of them enjoy very high “fixed” incomes.
“Yeah, I love how retirees complain about their fixed incomes…”
This is their number one way to say “no” during the sales process of anything…a car, a house, insurance, electronics, clothes.
The way around it is to tell them that we’re all on fixed incomes. If you make $250,000 per year, you’re on a fixed income. If you make $100,000 per year, you’re on a fixed income. If you make $35,000 per year, you’re on a fixed income. The only people who aren’t on fixed incomes are the extraordinarily wealthy and the business owner who has big changes in their income over time. It turns the “no” to confusion because most people won’t call them out on it.
Andy…………..Andy………sigh
When you retire with a pension it’s at a fixed benefit.
Meaning it’s not indexed for inflation (wage or otherwise).
When you’re in the current job market you’re wage will
hopefully keep pace (good luck).
Sigh,
Mike
When you’re in the current job market you’re wage will
hopefully keep pace HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! No. Way.
I used to live in South Florida (Broward) and knew that bubble was affecting the major metropolitan areas like South Florida, Tampa, Orlando, and Jacksonville. From this blog, I also knew the troubles in other areas like Lee County, the Treasure and Space Coasts. What I didn’t realize is how bad the bubble was infecting virtually every inch of Florida.
I recently moved to Tallahassee, a town of about a quarter million. It’s amazing how much the bubble affected this area – new housing developments everywhere. Even here in Tallahassee where you can still get $200,000 SFHs in nice neighborhoods, the crazy developers built upscale, high-rise condominiums, lofts, and pseudo-brownstone townhouses that they were trying to pawn off at $300k +. Just like they did in South Florida, they converted a bunch of rental apartment communities into condominiums. These developments are mostly empty now.
Needless to say, inventory and foreclosures are ballooning here and sales are rapidly drying up. There’s a 17-month inventory right now that grows monthly.
However, since the local media doesn’t cover the real estate market other than quoting local Realtors® the local folks seem completely in the dark.
I have seen the same issues in other, more rural parts of Florida like Gainesville, Palatka, Panama City, and Crystal River. They’re all had the same overbuilding with the same silly developments.
I guess the developers really bought into the old urban legend that 1,000 people move to Florida each day. Otherwise, who did they think were going to move into all these developments?
So, as you read these threads, keep in mind that it is just major counties that are getting crushed. It Florida, the bubble and the subsequent downturn was universal.
Good update. We don’t hear much about Tallahassee.
‘It’s like a vacant-house graveyard.’”
I’ve told at least a dozen FL associates that their investments are basically worth zero. They don’t believe me.
Esp where a glut of empty units means that the remaining folks have to foot extra bills for maintainance, assessments, because so many people aren’t paying their fair share. Nobody in their right mind would by a property where the vacancy rate is over 50%, and most would shy away from 25%.
Properties in developments like this won’t sell at ANY price.
Very soon only cash buyers will be able to get a condo - and then for what? .20? .10? on the dollar? Those are the true vultures - the ones that wait until they can buy with cash. The crowd still buying today with borrowed money is courting disaster.
I don’t think anyone would buy for .10/dollar, unless there was some angle. like enough “Section 8″ rent out there to make it pencil out to be a slumlord.
There’s a huge danger in HOA/CC&R communities…YOU have to pick up the slack if your neighbors don’t pay. In a condo,for example, if the roof blows off and only 1/3 of the units have people paying the dues, the remaining tenants have to pay 3x to get the roof replaced. Few people will take that risk….
“There’s a huge danger in HOA/CC&R communities”
I’m with you on that one. HOA at a condo used to run $75 to $105 per month. Today it’s very easy to see condos charging $300 right on up. That’s like adding $50,000 to the purchase price assuming the fees don’t continue to rise.
If someone wanted to GIVE me a condo and I would only be responsible for the dues I’d decline.
there is always value in the copper wiring.
As someone that spends a fair amount of time in both Michigan and Florida (as well as Texas), the one thing that strikes me about both places is the mental state of denial about the local economy. In Michigan, it’s a structural problem that refuses to acknowledge that not only do they need to compete with foreign employers for business but also with other, lower taxation and lower cost states. In Florida, its the “It can’t happen here; just wait until those boomers start retiring.” In Florida’s case, it’s like the orchestra playing on the Titanic. In Michigan’s, it’s like the sinking of the Andrea Doria; it takes longer but either way, the destination is the same. Both states need some Texans. They’d try to figure out why the ship was sinking and stop it or at least look for the damned lifeboats.
I’ve been to Houston and Dallas a couple of times each, and saw a number of people so large they could serve as lifeboats. We’re bad here, but I don’t think there’s a single area of the country that doesn’t badly need a reality check.
If you are thinking about a sinking, just remember that there are no stops on the way down, until you hit Davy Jones Locker.
I’ve noticed that hotter states seem to have more lifeboat sized people. And that is a conspiracy theory, as I have not one speck of information to back it up, just looking around now and again and not even for very long, as I generally don’t enjoy looking at people, especially life-boat sized versions.
But back to my thought–here in Olympia I don’t see many lifeboat sized people. I would think it would be more beneficial to have a nice thick layer of fat reserves in a colder, wetter climate, like an orca, but most people I look at daily seem to be fairly normal sized. Maybe because the PNW has water and forests and suchlike all over the place, and it is actually pleasant to be outside?
It seems to me I have read a study or two on regional weight patterns, but I didn’t pay any attention, since I don’t care personally— I have ADHD, the Diet Plan of Choice.
If by lifeboat sized, you mean wider than they are tall, come check out the WalMart in Grants Pass. More like gunboat sized.
“Only eight of the top 100 U.S. census tracts with the most subprime loans in Central Florida are in low-income, urban areas such as Pine Hills and Azalea Park, according to the analysis. The rest are in suburban communities such as Avalon Park, Celebration, Winter Garden, Deltona, Poinciana and the Four Corners area near Disney World.”
Celebration, the development made with a lot of hoopla by Disney (Disney basically disasscoiated from it over the past few years), is a particular basket case. People were paying a premium for homes in Oceola county because of the Disney association.
Last time I checked there were 1700 MLS listings for celebration. That’s probably about 1/3 of the properties…
I-4 looks like a parking lot around Celebration at rush hour.
hey there Palmy
notice anymore “Disney Ears” type concrete power line support tower structures pop-up around I-4 near Orlando?
Quite a sight (and effective permanent advertising) to see that kind of a symbol associated with a utility company, subsidized w/public money no doubt.
You just KNOW Disney Co. has got the juice when they can have an electric transmission line concrete support tower formed into 10-story tall Mickey Mouse Ears AND have it put into place running beside the major highway interchange leading to Disneyworld !!
(Whoever came up with that idea deserved a hefty bonus for it’s simplicity of design & longlasting effect.)
I half expected home builders to to copycat the idea into some sort of similar logo design, what with all their clout in the state.
have a good one
LOL, aqius, I have seen that. Wonder how the Mouse will fare as tourism dries up. Gawd, central Florida has been turned into a hell-hole.
Just got back from Disney and Sea World. I thought I was in a foreign country. At least half the crowd at Disney spoke a different language. At Sea World I’d say 75%. Of course, it turned out to be “Viva La Musica” with the top names in the hispanic music industry performing at Sea World. People from other countries are keeping that place going. From the looks of it, Disney hasn’t been too affected yet. Once they are, then you know we’re near the bottom.
Mouse won’t take a hit fro me. I’m going to WDW in September. Taking my 4-1/2 year old son there for the first time. I got lots of $$ to spend on a vacation. That’s what happens when you rent!
Disney recently reported their latest quarterly results, and theme park attendance was up. They did attribute it to foreign visitors.
“They did attribute it to foreign visitors.”
That’s because the Brits and Euros spent their money like we spend our dollar. A value meal at BK will run you about $6 whether it be pounds, euro, or dollars.
Since that’s the case, a $100 park ticket seems like a $50 park ticket to our visitors and a $4 gallon of gas seems like a $2 gallon of gas and the $50 rental car seems like a $25 rental car. You can see my point. As long as the dollar is weak the mouse eats. When the economies in Europe falter, the mouse will go hungry for a few years.
dang, and they get free-er advertising on the tube all day
For the life of me, I can’t figure out why anyone would want to pay a premium to live in Celebration. There is something particularly creepy about that place. I imagine that they have the most oppressive HOA in Florida. When you add the traffic and terrible, tourist drivers, that place seems like hell on earth to me.
Speaking of which - how is the religiously-oriented development somewhere in Florida doing? I believe it was called something like Ave Maria - and was funded at least in part by the Domino’s pizza founder who owns the Detroit Tigers. Was also going to have a Catholic University as part of the development.
Seeing how many of the houses will be squattered by meth-odd actors, Royal Highlands was a most appropriate name…
“‘Royal Highlands has loads and loads and loads of vacant houses,’ Gavish said. ‘It’s like a vacant-house graveyard.’”
Stopped off at a new DH Horton development in Oxnard, Ca. yesterday to see what was happening. I posted about this place a few months ago. The development is called, “Orbela”. The usual realtor/developer b.s about what you would get if you purchased. A few miles from the beach, etc. They, of course, fail to mention the two most important points. The area borders latino gangland and the units are grossly over-priced in an area which is almost 80% latino and 90% blue collar with many making minimum wage. Anyhow, first thing I noticed is the price. They have dropped from the low to mid $400,000 to the high $300,000. Still 50% over-priced. Second, the salesman (not sure if these are realtors) gave me the old, “We only have a few units left. Phase One is 100% sold out. Phase 2 is 90% sold out and Phase 3 is about to be completed.” Yeah, sure it is, sweetheart. End result was that after he had finished his b.s, I shook my head and said, “You know, these are nice but still waaaay over-priced.” He smiled and said, “What kind of prices are you looking at?” I told him that I wouldn’t consider one of the units for anything over $225,000. His response: “The only place you are going to find those prices are in Kern County.” My response: “I’ll wait a year or so.” What I found interesting was hisd, “What kind of prices are you looking at.” Obviously, DH Horton have instructed their salepeople to drop the realtorwhore bullet points, “Now is a great time to buy,” and switch to the used car sales pitch, “What will it take for me to get you into the car (property).”
Still at least 2 years away from the bottom in my opinion with a lot of bankrupt builders littering the road before we get there.
Comment by Faster Pussycat:
“What we really need to do is downsize,” Linda Conroy said. “Have a smaller place and half the mortgage.”
What you needed to do was read the contract before you initialed it.
They were speculators, plain and simple. What did they need such a big house for during their “retirement”?
Let’s not forget how much more costly heating and cooling are with all the echo space of vaulted ceilings and copious square footage. Enjoy all those oversize utility bills you ‘bigger is better’ speculators. I’m betting you’re paying through the noise for your big, gas-sucking vehicles too.
I once had a utility bill (electricity + gas) lying around somewhere on a table when some friends came over for a dinner party.
I live in Manhattan, and they have a house in Stamford, CT.
The guy was surprised at the size of the bill, and remarked that my annual bill was smaller than his monthly bill.
I wanted to remark, “And you commute daily too! BWAHAHAHAHHAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!”
But I was nice. Sigh.
‘But I was nice. Sigh.’
It’s okay, fasty, we forgive you. Anyway, I bet it didn’t last.
Heh.
I AM nice. I am not nice in conventional ways though.
I belong to the school of thought that if you want tact, you go call a tactitian.
I belong to the school of you get more with honey than you do with vinegar.
True, but the honey-vinegar-black pepper-olive oil combo is hard to beat.
“‘There are some real structural problems affecting that state and they’ve been in dire straits much longer,’ Snaith said of Michigan, where unemployment is 6.9 percent. ‘Our problems are more a cyclical function of the insane real estate market we’ve been in. Once we get out of 2008, things will start to brighten.’”
______________________________________________________________
Conductor Snaith is halfway through a railroad tunnel with only one set of tracks and sees a bright light approaching, gathering speed…
‘We’ve been a leader in job creation for most of the last decade because of the construction boom.
The vast majority of jobs created were housing and building related as other higher paying jobs such as accounting and computer related positions were being shifted to offshore to low wage countries.
The jobs that remain are the low paying retail, food and small business. I see numerous people every year who have moved to Florida without checking out the local job market and end up moving back up north because they could not find a good paying job.
Welcome to Florida, the state with few jobs that can cover the expense of the high cost of housing, insurance and taxes!
That is not what I am seeing…My company has 10 engineering jobs open, that we cannot fill. I know my competitors are looking for people…I dont think Floridas job market is that bad. I should say central florida.
What type of engineering…and why are there so few workers available.
I agree with Fuzzy you are UNIQUE….unless you are paying $15 hr and you need a masters degree.
I’m betting that if you can’t fill the positions, you’re not advertising a high enough wage.
or, the other annoying habit of making required job skills so specific to the particular position==because you don’t want to do any on the job training –that no one qualifies.
I am in the IT world. The most sought after engineers are:
In order of need
Call Center
Virtualization
Voice/Meetingplace(CCIE)
Security(CCIE)
General Networking(CCIE)
Video Background
I am in the IT world. The most sought after engineers are:
Call Center
Virtualization
Voice/Meetingplace(CCIE)
Security(CCIE)
General Networking(CCIE)
Video Background
The call center jobs have been going offshore and not too many people are interested in taking the risk of losing their job again. VM and Network (CCIE) experienced skill sets are in demand, but few job seekers are willing to relocate due to the housing mess and the normal low wages Florida has for these positions.
That’s the problem at my megacorp. We can find plenty of good candidates, but few that will accept our lowball offers.
A questioner in the audience asked about an NAR promotional campaign that started a few years ago, just as the market was going into free fall — “There’s never been a better time to buy a home.” If someone had taken that advice and bought a home, the questioner said, in some markets that house is worth less today. Why should people listen to NAR?
McMillan dodged that bullet. “Realtors can’t guarantee a property will ever increase in value,” he said, and started talking about mortgage fraud.
The truth finally comes out. The NAR advertisments, Now is a great time to buy, turns out to be false advertising! The goal of the advertisments were to fool the public into believing that “now is a great time to buy even though the NAR knew that home prices were going to keep falling much more.
The NAR has lost a significant amount of credibility with the consumer and general public by their unethical and questionable ways it conducts business.
The NAR has lost a significant amount of credibility with the consumer and general public by their unethical and questionable ways it conducts business.
Fuzzy, I wish you were right, but if so why does almost every moronic news media author/editor always quote the lying whores? It is surreal.
RE: “‘What we really need to do is downsize,’ Linda Conroy said. ‘Have a smaller place and half the mortgage.’”
Yeah, you and 80 million other baby boomers.
Where’s all those 1000sf 2-1 bunaglows at?
“Some offers are ‘almost embarrassingly low,’ said Pompano Beach agent Randy Bates, president of the Realtor Association of Greater Fort Lauderdale. Insulted, owners reject the bids, only to field subsequent offers just as low, Bates said.”
Ha ha..keep getting “insulted” bitches, keep your pride, keep your upside down condo. ha ha
I moved out of Orlando (city) in 1997, but could someone jog my memory - back when I lived there (82-97), and if I’m remembering correctly, Poinciana was a bit of a dump. Is that still the case or did someone try to put a tiara on a monkey’s ass ?
“Poinciana was a bit of a dump. Is that still the case or did someone try to put a tiara on a monkey’s ass ?”
A bit of both. Area has improved quite a bit but with the bubble undoubtedly didn’t improve to expectations of investwhores.
Anyone else have a different impression?
“There were just not enough people in inner cities to allow subprimes to grow………”
The banks must have learned a thing or two from Willie Sutton.
“Go where the money is, and go there often.”