May 19, 2008

From Excess To Normal Affairs

The Uinta County Herald reports from Wyoming. “After 20 plus years of relatively little housing growth, it’s as if houses are sprouting up out of the reddish dirt around Evanston with the new grass this spring. There are many new developments currently under construction, and plenty of new homes already completed and on the market. Will there be enough growth to fill all of those houses?”

“Ben Bishop of Bishop Homes is a speculative builder. He noted that after the boom in Evanston in the late ‘70s and early ‘80s there were 20 years or so of no growth, because there was a lot of excess and it took time to absorb.”

“‘Housing markets tend to cycle from excess to normal affairs,’ he said.”

“There are several developers right now building houses in town, in similar positions to Bishop. ‘Homebuilders are like a herd, we see the same information,’ he said.”

“Some developers think that there may already be too many new homes, that supply may already be outgrowing demand. Others are very optimistic and have further building phases planned and already under construction.”

“Homebuilder Tony Perez talked to bankers, city engineers, and realtors, and said that they expressed confidence in the population growth and that homes would be needed. Perez joked that ‘everybody wants to be a builder now.’”

“The housing market is in fine shape here in Evanston, says Karen Field of Coldwell Banker. Field said employment opportunities make the difference here in contrast to the parts of the country hard hit.”

“‘Our market is good, and we don’t have an oversupply of houses,’ she said. ‘The economy is good in Wyoming. People have jobs. In the rest of the country there were loans that shouldn’t have been, and then people lost their jobs.’”

The Missoulian from Montana. “Longtime Stimson Lumber Co. employees Sue Tollefson and husband Greg Tollefson discuss the latest twist in the paperwork related to his layoff on Thursday afternoon. ‘It’s frustrating,’ says Greg. ‘You just work with it and try not to let it get to you.’”

“Weaknesses in the housing industry directly affected mills tied into construction, such as the stud mill in Bonner. Prices for lumber have dropped to about $239 per thousand board feet, roughly half of what lumber fetched in 2004 and 2005 when the housing market was robust.”

“‘Industrywide, demand fell off to such a degree that it brought prices down below historical lows and below profitability for many mills,’ said Shawn Church, an editor at Random Lengths Publications.”

“Production supervisor Richard Anthony has been at the Bonner plant for 38 years. ‘I don’t have a clue,’ Anthony said. ‘I don’t know what I’ll do.’”

The Oregonian. “As central Oregon’s long real estate gold rush gives way to a grim new era of falling prices and foreclosures, few companies have crashed to earth harder than Bend-based Desert Sun Development.”

“The upstart operation, led by its intense 29-year-old founder, Tyler Fitzsimons, is under siege from lenders, suppliers and contractors who say they’ve been stiffed for millions of dollars.”

“The unfolding saga reflects how the financial industry operated in central Oregon and elsewhere during the real estate boom. Banks lined up to back newly minted companies. They made huge loans to workers of limited means who couldn’t afford the payments.”

“At Desert Sun, five ex-employees told The Oregonian their incomes were inflated or their signatures forged on loan applications or other financing documents.”

“Now that some of those loans have defaulted, banks are going after some of the employees with foreclosure threats. But in many of the Desert Sun transactions, there is no house to repossess — only land worth a fraction of what is owed.”

“‘I owe $290,000 for a piece of land that is probably worth $70,000,’ said Casey Cross, a former Desert Sun electrician who owns an empty lot in Sisters. ‘I’m one of the lucky ones. It’s just me and my dog. There are good people with families just getting crushed.’”

“At its peak, Desert Sun employed more than 110 people. The company’s success enabled Fitzsimons to buy expensive toys, including a 2006 Ferrari 430 Spider, boasting a base ticket price in excess of $200,000.”

“Desert Sun had no retirement plan, but it did offer the employee homeownership program, which its Web site likened to a 401(k).”

“Fitzsimons said Desert Sun’s problems came about when the banks, rocked by the weakening economy, stopped lending. ‘There’s nothing malicious going on,’ he said. ‘Yes, we’re a victim of the market decline. But so is everybody else.’”

“Employees were ultimately responsible for repaying the loans, which generally ranged between $300,000 and $500,000. But the banks handed the money directly to Desert Sun and employees had little if any involvement in how it was spent.”

“Still, it sounded like a great idea to Krystal Chamberlin, an accounts receivable clerk at the company. Chamberlin worried that her limited income — the single mother earned about $27,000 a year — would disqualify her.”

“Chamberlin was delighted to hear in November 2006 that National City Mortgage had approved a $477,000 construction loan. She agreed to have her house built in the Roaring Springs subdivision of Sisters.”

“Chamberlin owes $284,000 on her property in Sisters, though not even the foundation is complete. On April 25, National City Mortgage notified Chamberlin that because of the lack of construction progress, it was declaring her loan in default. It asked for immediate payment of the $284.159.63 outstanding.”

“Cross borrowed $415,200 from Columbia River Bank for his house in Sisters. Cross has left central Oregon. But he worries that ruined credit could be only the start of his troubles resulting from the Desert Sun fiasco. ‘It’s the worst of the worst,’ Cross said.”

The Columbian from Washington. “So, what’s really going on in the Clark County housing market? The Columbian asked that question and others of 11 of the county’s top-producing Realtors in Vancouver.”

“If you could give three pieces of advice to a Clark County home seller, what would you say? Hali Hobson: ‘Price. Price. Price, and how it presents. It’s a kiss of death to overprice your home … and assessed values (from the Clark County Assessor) are two years behind the market.’”

“What about buyers? What are you telling them? Sharry McNeel: ‘I tell my buyers - and remind my sellers - that except for the years 2004 and 2005, when you bought a home, you’d have to be in it three or four years to break even or make any money. Sellers have forgotten that, and buyers have forgotten that, too, because they went through 2005 when you could buy a house for $300,000 and two months later sell it for $350,000. We’re back to the real world again.’”

“Would it be fair to say there’s a disconnect right now between Clark County buyers and sellers?”

“Don Humphrey: ‘Buyers are suddenly seeing prices so low that they don’t know when to pull the trigger because they don’t know if those prices are going to go even lower next week and next month…A couple of years ago, we were just taking orders. Now we really have to work the deal between that buyer who’s trying to find the very lowest mark he can get to and the seller who doesn’t want to give up any more than he has to.’”

“Terrie Cox: ‘A year and a half or two years ago, we couldn’t write up offers quick enough … and now it’s just flipped the other way. That was a no-brainer, because values can’t continue to keep going up that fast. I think we’re still going to have sales, but the market had to taper off.’”

“In an east Vancouver subdivision, one out of every nine houses has entered foreclosure since the start of the year. The Clark County foreclosure rate has been rapidly climbing since mid-2007. Across the county, 1,049 houses were in foreclosure through April, up fourfold from 2007.”

“Speculators own as many as one in five homes in some newer neighborhoods in the county, and now many are losing those properties.”

“Rising payments got the Murphys, Hazel Dell residents who say they did not understand the details of their adjustable rate mortgage, in trouble.”

“Their home’s value had climbed by more than $40,000 since they purchased it in 2003. They refinanced for $178,000 in 2005, borrowing from equity to pay off other bills. They struggled with the loan’s initial higher payments of $1,080 a month, about $100 more than they had been paying before the refi.”

“Then, on Jan. 1, the loan’s interest rate adjusted upward, bumping their monthly payment to more than $1,500. They couldn’t afford the payment, and they couldn’t come to an agreement with their lender. ‘They didn’t really want to work with us,’ said Mathew Murphy.”

“The bank foreclosed, and has given the couple until later this month to move out of the 1950s-style, three-bedroom ranch where they were raising their 2-year-old daughter, said Jennifer.”

“Many have also found that it is increasingly difficult to sell in Clark County. When Lamont Shaindlin’s commission-only sales income dropped last year, he could no longer afford his $1,600 monthly loan payments.”

“He tried to sell his Orchards-area house to avoid foreclosure, but said his lender, Washington Mutual, seemed indifferent to a short-sale offer of $195,000. Shaindlin owed about $199,000 on the loan.”

“‘The bank could have mitigated their own losses,’ he said.”

“Instead, unable to find a buyer willing to cover his debts, Shaindlin, his wife and two daughters had to vacate their Vancouver home of 11 years.”

“Last week, Lamont Shaindlin drove by the house his family lost. ‘It was still empty and the lawn was overgrown. We’ve found a place in the area, an apartment complex,’ Shaindlin said. ‘It’s not the move you want to make, going from owner to renter.’”

“A Columbian analysis of some of Clark County’s worst-hit neighborhoods found that many foreclosures are tied to real estate speculation and house flipping.”

“One Washougal house investor, who with her husband profited from several sales before the market cooled, was among dozens of investors in the Gables at Hiddenbrook Terrace, a 124-home subdivision in Vancouver. She and her husband bought a new house in that neighborhood for $299,690 in August 2005.”

“They also bought two homes in another new subdivision in Camas in 2006, one for $230,000 and another for $240,000. Now at least two of these investment properties are in the early stages of foreclosure, as is the Washougal house where she lives.”

“For several years, the speculator, who asked that her name be withheld to spare her from embarrassment, was able to purchase houses and sell them at a profit.”

“‘We were successful for a while, then the market got worse and it was hard to find a buyer,’ she said.”

“Of the subdivision’s 124 homes, at least 14 have entered the foreclosure process since late 2007. Another 19 are owned by people who don’t live in the neighborhood, a sign that these owners are likely investors.”

“Including those in foreclosure, 20 percent of these houses are not occupied by their owners and 25 percent have been sold at least once in the three years since they were built. Three property owners seem to have bought two houses each in the neighborhood.”

“‘In 2005 we had a situation that I would characterize as irrational exuberance,’ said Mike Lamb, associate broker in Vancouver.”

“Buyers thought the market would go up forever, and therefore borrowed deeply with the belief that they could sell if necessary, Lamb said. Meanwhile, people caught by high payments are abandoning their loans, Lamb said. ‘When you have no skin in the game, it’s easier to walk away.’”

“The Washougal speculator said she’s not sad about the prospect of losing three houses, including the 5,000-square-foot Columbia River-view home where she now lives. ‘It’s a nice house, but I can live anywhere.’”




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80 Comments »

Comment by Ben Jones
2008-05-19 12:30:21

Here’s a write in at the Mail Tribune in Oregon:

‘DEAR BRUCE: I have been married for 30 years, and I’m 50 years old. I have done some major damage to my credit. I have borrowed against everything. I have refinanced my home, borrowing against my 401(k). Our home is worth $150,000, and we owe $135,000. I owe my 401(k) more than $20,000, and I have $20,000 in credit-card debt. I have been trying to reduce my debt, but it just seems daunting. I have talked to some of the counseling companies, and they want to charge a large percentage to negotiate a better deal. I don’t see how this helps me. Where do I go from here? I don’t want to go bankrupt, but I’m just crushed. On top of everything, the company I work for is in financial trouble. — F.C., via e-mail’

‘DEAR F.C.: You do have a ton of problems here. While you say you don’t want to go bankrupt, technically, you are bankrupt…’

Comment by Mormon_Tea
2008-05-19 15:19:02

Multiply “Bruce” by 20-30 million cases across the USA. Add in a potential 20-30 million more over the next 24 months. Individuals, couples, families, small businesses, partnerships, joint ventures, corporations, foundations, trusts, villages, towns, cities, counties, and states are slipping into bankruptcy every day. If you’ve gotten past the sixth grade and don’t know that the FEDERAL Government is already technically bankrupt, consider yourself now duly informed.
The wheels are coming off of this economic train, and the conductors are pointing fingers and saying the worst is definitely over. It’s not. It’s a bad wreck; just starting.

Got savings, food and water, and a plan?

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-05-19 15:48:41

This is the correct response:

DEAR F.C: You’re bankrupt hence you are f*cked. At your age, there are few options left. Consider borrowing a garage and a running motor. Be sure to put that last bottle of whisky on your credit card.

 
Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2008-05-19 17:25:31

Well said, MT. Something in the basic order of things got so badly out of whack, and now the proverbial chickens are coming home to roost. My hope is that enough people will be able to “see the light” and get their priorities in order, so that society itself, rather than just the economy, won’t go off the rails.

Comment by gal
2008-05-19 19:02:30

I think there is only one real ORGANIZED CRIME OERGANIZATION in this country and it is the FEDERAL BANK and CO. who organizes BUBBLES every 5 years in this country by the orders of BIG FINACIERS like MR. BUFFET and alike who just know when to buy ERO or GOLD , when to sell their House in Laguna BEACH, see even in this sight many people 3-4 years ago knew what was going to happen to Housing and to economy, but …

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Comment by txchick57
2008-05-19 16:40:07

He’s technically 5K in the hole plus penalties and taxes on the 401k withdrawal, assuming he has no remaining balance. Big deal. Sell the house, pay down the credit cards and rent. No big thing.

Comment by sm_landlord
2008-05-19 16:58:23

OK, so this person is only a *little* bankrupt. :-)

Comment by txchick57
2008-05-19 18:50:58

Technically insolvent but easily remedied.

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Comment by silverback1011
2008-05-20 00:22:45

I’ve been “bankrupt” to the tune of $ 65,000 in cc debt plus a large business loan that my ex-husband had forged my name on- all to try and keep a failing business ( veterinary clinic ) going when I was younger and didn’t know my way around financially. We never formally bankrupted and paid it all back. I have lived and lost, but also lived and won. This guy really is just a “little” insolvent and if he wants to pay off his debts, he can. The 401k loan may be a lost cause, but he can fix the rest. No eating out, no cable, no vaca’s, nothing, but yeah, he can make it work. No point in committing suicide for a few thousand dollars. Geeze. At least he’s not underwater on his home. If he has a fixed-rate mortgage, his monthly payment s/b about $1150. He can do it. Quit whining, get a 2nd job, and the sunshine will come out. People have lived through far worse financial difficulties than he’s got. I should know. Anyone who really wants to dig himself out of debt should read the autobiographical story by Ralph Moody, ” Horse of a Different Color - Reminiscences of a Kansas Stockdrover “. I read this book over and over again to inspire myself to keep on going and digging out from the mountain of debt that had accumulated when our business had failed. Ralph Moody avoided bankruptcy in 1920, and I did it in the nineties. It can be done. It’s hard, but it can be done. It all worked out & I’m happy, well, remarried and prosperous.

 
 
 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2008-05-19 17:12:22

Ya gotta at least wonder whether his “home…worth $150,000″ is a real or a wishing price. He’d be much further in the red if it’s really appraised at $135K and would only sell for $115K.

 
 
Comment by Doctor Fartelstain
2008-05-19 17:27:03

The thought of having $20,000+ in credit card debt would make me sick. I have had (1) since 1969. Pay it off every month.

I’am scared to death with the thought of meeting these people out on the road.

 
Comment by Out at the Peak
2008-05-19 17:43:21

FC should negotiate with the lenders directly to reduce debt.
But the troubling part is how he got to where he is in the first place. We all get the feeling that this guy and the next felt like they could borrow large amounts of money because their house would just magically pay for all these expenditures.

My old house that I sold at the peak (87% increase since 2001) is now worth less than what I paid for it in 2001 (47% decrease since 2005). (A better comps’ asking price is $5K less than my purchase.) Since my house was new construction, everyone in that neighborhood since 2001 (estimate 40 homes) is under water. There will be a lot more FCs soon.

 
Comment by rick
2008-05-19 19:40:41

Actually there is a positive side to this, it seems a lot of people refinanced to pay off credit, so what you are seeing in foreclosure might be shifted from credit card or other defaults. The credit card industry must be pretty happy charging those cows high interest for a long time and then having the card paid off.

 
Comment by hd74man
2008-05-20 07:59:53

RE: While you say you don’t want to go bankrupt, technically, you are bankrupt…’

I must confess to the abysmal fact that I since my divorce I have communicated with a fair number of women I have met thru various internet dating sites.

And all I can say is that if you hang around long enough; read between the lines; and secure all the facts; there is one hell of a lot of women in dire need of financial rescuing, contrary to what’s put out front.

Single men with assets, beware!

Comment by Doctor Fartelstain
2008-05-20 12:39:36

Bankrupcies in our local bird-cage-liner tend to float that way in my estimation. More Tammys, Missys, Aprils, Mays, Junes, etc. than Joe Blows. They got the house and his underware. Now live with it or learn how to live without it. Perhaps the shysters got paid, though. Priority ONE.

 
 
 
Comment by James NYC
2008-05-19 14:58:41

That Fitzsimons in Oregon should go to jail.

Instead? Take a look at the last paragraph…

“Meanwhile, Desert Sun hasn’t gone out of business, but Fitzsimons is attempting to move on. He formed a new company, TFMH LLC., in January. A month later, eight lots in Sisters were transferred to that company from a Desert Sun affiliate. In February, according to Deschutes County property records, Columbia River Bank gave the new company a $3.4 million line of credit.”

Unbelievable.

Comment by BW
2008-05-19 16:05:08

Crooks helping out their fellow crooks.

 
Comment by sfbayqt
2008-05-19 16:50:34

And an LLC to boot. There is built-in protection with an LLC, yes?

BayQT~

Comment by Brian in Chicago
2008-05-19 18:50:18

No more than with a corporation.

Neither of them protect you from acting in a criminal manner, and I would bet that an LLC is more dangerous for certain people because you can probably act more like a person instead of an officer in a company - and that takes away your shield from liability.

Comment by txchick57
2008-05-19 18:52:20

The real crime is the BS that people are fed about the “protections” of LLCs. They think they can create one, run amok causing all sorts of mayhem and walk away with no liability.

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Comment by MacAttack
2008-05-19 21:53:42

My favorite legal saying… “Piercing the corporate veil” to attach the personal assets within. I hope our AG and the Feds put this dude in Federal prison.

 
 
Comment by sfbayqt
2008-05-19 19:58:48

Thanks to both of you for clearing that up for me. I had no idea what kind of protection an LLC really gives, and no real reason to bone up on it. With so many LLCs popping up, it makes me wonder how many of them actually consulted an attorney to help them understand what the business model actually gave them (or didn’t give them).

BayQT~

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Comment by Tango in Uniform
2008-05-19 14:59:41

It’s official: Evanston, Wyoming is immune to the nationwide housing bubble.

Anyone been to Star Valley (WY) lately? Is it massively built up too?

Comment by iftheshoefits
2008-05-19 15:36:16

I haven’t been through the area in a while, but I hear the area north of Evanston to Pinedale has been completely transformed by a resurgence of oil and gas exploration. Lights up the night skies for miles around, so I’m told. Pinedale is a tourist town, and with the exception of Kemmerer there’s not many other towns to settle in. Good ol’ Evingston is still probably the best value relative to the others.

Or there’s always Rock Springs. ughh.

Don’t know about Star Valley, it always seemed more ag and 2nd homies.

 
Comment by SMF
2008-05-19 15:36:26

“He noted that after the boom in Evanston in the late ‘70s and early ‘80s there were 20 years or so of no growth, because there was a lot of excess and it took time to absorb.”

Personally, I found this quote much more interesting.

1. What has changed in WY to justify such excess construction?
2. Why is WY a low population state? (Maybe they expect a wave of retirees? ;) )
3. And do we see how long it can take to absorb excess housing supply? (Hint: a loooong time)

Comment by Paul in Jax
2008-05-19 15:51:57

1. Price of oil, natural gas, and coal plus low crime and low taxes
2. The weather is outrageously bad 8 months a year
3. Nevada quintupled its population from 1970 to 2000 without any problem

 
 
Comment by Former FB
2008-05-19 15:36:50

Don’t know about Star Valley, but the Big Horn Basin has seemed quite bubblicious for the last couple of years, in that cute small-town way you only get to see in the middle of nowhere. They’re a year or so behind the rest of the country, which you would think would provide a great opportunity to get out before the herd. Everyone I’ve tried to help out has been quick to point out how different it is there, though. You can literally map out the exact trajectory of everywhere else, and show them exactly where they are on the curve, and they still think it’s YOU who doesn’t get it.

Comment by Tango in Uniform
2008-05-19 16:41:33

Yes, I saw some preliminary planning for a large subdivision in Belfry, MT, at the north end of the Bighorn Basin. On the off chance that anyone here has been through Belfry (go Bats!), I’m sure you are busting a gut laughing right now. Dry, relatively poor scenery, and no jobs for 50 miles.

Cody has gotten insane, of course, and I saw a bunch of new houses going up in Powell. Lovell looked OK. Haven’t really been to the southern part of the basin. Call me when Cowley gets McMansions, and I will short the state of Wyoming.

Bighorn Basin, Powder River Basin, Jackson Hole, North Fork, this state’s out of control. I can only hope the bust rolls through soon in order to stop the rampant overbuilding and false sense of “investment” and wealth.

 
 
 
Comment by NotInMontana
2008-05-19 15:01:34

“Production supervisor Richard Anthony has been at the Bonner plant for 38 years. ‘I don’t have a clue,’ Anthony said. ‘I don’t know what I’ll do.’”

They’re all getting retraining. Hell I wish that would happen to me, and I’m old, too! One of our computer techs hereis an ol’ boy who was retrained after a local mill layoff, and he really knows his stuff. Probably doesn’t get paid a lot, but he owns his house too, which he took care to do during all those years at the mill. I’d love to change careers (again).

 
Comment by Rob
2008-05-19 15:03:18

—–“‘Our market is good, and we don’t have an oversupply of houses,’ she said. ‘The economy is good in Wyoming. People have jobs. In the rest of the country there were loans that shouldn’t have been, and then people lost their jobs.’”——-

Wow, I wanna live in Goldilocks, Wyoming — apparently they don’t let developers overbuild, or let lenders overlend, or let employers over-employ. If you listen to the, ahem, non-interest-conflicted individuals interviewed in this puff piece all appears rosy.

rob

Comment by Mo Money
2008-05-19 15:33:38

We would “Never” give out liar loans here in Wyoming !

Flyover states, gotta love em.

 
Comment by NoSingleOne
2008-05-19 15:34:02

One thing about these oil states is that there do tend to be a higher percentage of people making good money when energy commodities go through the roof. I didn’t believe it about Alaska, but it seems that there are still some knifecatchers out there that think with the small price drops we’ve seen, prices aren’t that high, and they’re actually buying! The realtors I talk to often make that assertion, and I have no way to get firm numbers on it so it is driving me crazy…

Comment by iftheshoefits
2008-05-19 15:48:07

When oil and gas money dries up, Evanston is not exactly a hoppin’ place. SW Wyo is really an isolated pocket, and there’s just not that big an economic base, so I could easily see that energy boomtimes could make it all but immune to housing woes elsewhere, for the time being.

As for me, I would only go up there to work on energy projects, and I’d want out as soon as I was done. If you like cold, windy, blustery high desert, it’s the place to be. Betting on Evanston real estate would be about the same as betting on energy stocks.

 
Comment by Paul in Jax
2008-05-19 15:57:19

I’ll go out on a limb and say I think people are going to surprised when they see the OFHEO numbers for Q1 coming out in a few days. I predict North Dakota will be #1, Wyoming #2 in relative price appreciation.

 
Comment by are they crazy
2008-05-19 17:51:12

I lived through the last housing downturn (the big one) in Anchorage after the pipeline. Talk about jingle mail - huge numbers of folks mailed the keys in on their way back to where they came from. was stubborn enough not to buy that $85K condo that everyone said I should buy a couple of years before. When they were down to $40K, I still didn’t want one. Having gone through a bursting housing bubble, I knew the signs and I knew this one would be big and bad because it all feeds on itself.

 
 
 
Comment by Mo Money
2008-05-19 15:20:34

‘Homebuilders are like a herd, we see the same information,’ he said.”

Try “Lemmings” off a cliff….

 
Comment by BubbleViewer
2008-05-19 15:22:58

Still, it sounded like a great idea to Krystal Chamberlin, an accounts receivable clerk at the company. Chamberlin worried that her limited income — the single mother earned about $27,000 a year — would disqualify her.”
Oh, no, Krystal. No need to worry.
“Chamberlin was delighted to hear in November 2006 that National City Mortgage had approved a $477,000 construction loan.”
Yes, I remember seeing the young “homeowners” jumping for joy at Anatolia in Rancho Cordova (Sacramento) in 2005. The atmosphere was electric. Looking back, it should have seemed so obvious what a fraud it all was.

Comment by SMF
2008-05-19 16:32:39

Anatolia in Sacramento is getting absolutely creamed by the fallout. Plenty of homes are reaching that magical 50% off peak bubble pricing.

This was the place where someone figured that a 5500 sq.ft. track home was a great idea…

 
Comment by sm_landlord
2008-05-19 16:50:00

“The atmosphere was electric.”

Little did they know that the lightning bolts were directed at their private parts. It just took a while for them to notice.

 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2008-05-19 17:21:33

This irght up there with a strawberry-picker story! 477K/27K = 17.6 times income!! Wow.

Comment by sf jack
2008-05-19 19:26:03

The funny thing is that here in the Alt-A Bay Area… I’m pretty sure that some households which grossed $100K in income “bought” a house in the $1.5 to $1.7 million range sometime in the last few years.

In other words, not too far off the 17.6x you mention.

 
 
Comment by rick
2008-05-19 19:49:05

This is definitely a fraud, there is no way that income can pay for the mortgage, she needs all her income just to pay the monthly payment.

Comment by Housing Wizard
2008-05-19 22:23:31

i wouldn’t give more than 80k to someone with a income that low and I would want at least 10 % down, if not more .

There is just something really strange about people who take out loans that payments exceed their yearly income .I think that at some point in the boom straw buyers were obtained from all walks of life to relieve the game-players of their inflated price investment tool called real estate . The crooks just made up all the prices . This wasn’t a real estate market ,it was a tulip type mania ,riddled with fraud .

The only thing taxpayers should pay for is Courts to prosecute the crimes . And don’t tell me that this borrower didn’t know that her income wasn’t inflated to get the loan . Nobody goes out with a income that low and buys a house that expensive unless they were talked into some kind of a scheme .

 
Comment by rally
2008-05-20 05:12:24

I don’ t see what the big deal is. She can get an option arm for lower than the interest, and just refinance later.

 
 
 
Comment by Mo Money
2008-05-19 15:25:48

“It asked for immediate payment of the $284.159.63 outstanding.”

Yeah, some one who made $27K will get right back to you with that money Morons.

 
Comment by MacAttack
2008-05-19 15:28:56

Well, here in Portland, we’re different… we don’t have speculators…wait - what’s that?
Yes, stuff around Portland (and Vancouver, across the river)- is starting to sit. But there is SOME building going on. Go figure.

Comment by Michael Emmel
2008-05-19 15:52:35

I’d think Oregon’s economy should be taking a pretty serious hit because a lot of it is tied to home manufacturing. Lumber for example. Also stuff you don’t think about like flowers, berries and Christmas trees. I was surprised at the amount of what I call fluff agriculture in Oregon. Stuff like organic foods that are not price competitive will get hammered as people pull back on spending.

Nothing agianst organic foods they are great but prices are prices.
I’ve noticed my local grocery store is carrying a lot more non-organic milk and has cut the space allocated for organic milk. Also Nike probably won’t do well as consumer spending pulls back. Also of course no more Cali equity locusts.

So overall I expect the Oregon economy to get especially hammered over the next few years. Maybe the organic farmers can hang in there until petroleum based farming finally costs more than organic.

 
Comment by Santa Bubblicious
2008-05-19 19:08:35

Here in Santa Barbara I get a monthly (about) mailing with Oregon properties (very nice, shiny paper, etc.). I have to say when you are used to the Santa Barbara prices (everyone wants to live here, you know) it is shocking to us what $1,000,000 will buy. I bet you’ll still have some refugees for awhile.

Our neighbors sold their 3/2, 1500 sq ft 40 yr old home two years ago for about $1.2 M (just about the peak-good for them) and moved to rural Oregon. Nice chunk of beautiful land on a beautiful river with a nicely built modest house. They wisely didn’t buy a McMansion in a tract home.

Everyone asked how they were going to stand the weather. He just kept saying: “Who cares what the weather’s like? I’m going to stuff the walls full of money for insulation and never work again.”

Comment by Wickedheart
2008-05-19 20:08:56

“Who cares what the weather’s like? I’m going to stuff the walls full of money for insulation and never work again.”

Okay, that is just flippin’ hilarious.

I never thought the weather was so bad in Oregon. It’s a little rainy but I like rain. It never seemed that cold.

 
Comment by kpom
2008-05-19 20:13:38

” Nice chunk of beautiful land on a beautiful river”

Hope he’s not too close to the beautiful river - Oregon rivers tend to flood periodically…

 
Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2008-05-19 20:32:54

I don’t get it. What’s their strategy? Hang out by themselves on their rural property until they die of boredom? Are they surrounded by family/friends up here or do they fly to California for fun?

Again, don’t get it.

Comment by MacAttack
2008-05-19 22:03:03

I’m not sure. Only about 30% of people prefer living in a rural area. I’m one of them. I see quite a few people move in, decide it’s not their cup of tea, and move out a year later. Portland has some culture; so does Eugene and Ashland (a bit) and Seattle’s three hours away with luck. So there are things to do. It isn’t all that great from a weather standpoint, mostly due to the postnasal drip that appears in October and lingers until May. To get an idea of the climate, check out Ax Men on the History Channel. That was filmed about 40 miles west of Portland.

Things in Portland have slowed down quite a bit, in the rural areas like mine, too. It’s not uncommon for things to take nearly a year to sell in outlying areas.

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Comment by Jas Jain
2008-05-19 15:39:27


My son’s classmate and friend works for Mr. Softie, at the headquarters. Years ago when he was married they bought a home in rural area. He has been divorced for 2-3 years and finally decided to put his home for sale. No offers and very few looks. Finally, my son told him to drop price by 10% and so he dropped it from $525K to $475K. Within a week he got two offers.

Home not selling, or all the inventory build up, is all about price.

Jas

Comment by hoz
2008-05-19 16:11:14

“Prices do not reflect actual value”
Munehisa Honma 1755

Comment by aladinsane
2008-05-19 16:38:49

Liquidity often knows no price.

 
Comment by sm_landlord
2008-05-19 16:56:56

“Not intended for off-road use. Best if used before date on carton. May explode if recharged improperly. Contains no artificial colors or ingredients.”

See The Ultimate Disclaimer

 
 
 
Comment by Brandon
2008-05-19 15:55:50

While on a recent fligth, I came to a realization that inflight magazines have been a major contributor to the housing bubble in the west. I was reading through the Skywest magazine and page after page were ads for land in Wyoming, Utah, Montana, etc. plus other ads for time-shares….woops…meant to say “fractional ownership” opportunities in resort town in Idaho, Oregon, Utah, etc. Then the feature stories in the magazine are thinly disguised Chamber of Commerce ads for small towns and cities out west. The Southwest magazine used to be another culprit with their page after page of condo ads for Las Vegas.

So in conclusion, we can blame the airlines for high fares, poor service, flight delays, and the housing bubble.

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-05-19 18:32:36

When flying a lot for business 2002-2005, I remember Miami condos really getting pimped hardcore. I always wondered who they were trying to reach with such glitzy advertising, made me think I was the poorest person on the flight. Yep, this sure has been building for a long time, too long to be over already.

 
Comment by iftheshoefits
2008-05-19 18:44:06

I wonder how much the airlines make from ad revenue in those rags. Maybe that’s what’s been keeping them afloat lately.

So, the airlines caused the housing bubble, and now the the bubble bust ends up forcing the airlines into bankruptcy due to lost flight magazine ad revenue. Sounds about right.

 
Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2008-05-19 20:44:18

my personal favorite is the LV condo towers advertised in the Alaska Air mags.

Scantilly clad beauty is seated on the floor out on the balcony (with her skirt hiked WAY up) over looking Paris! Paris! seductively and playfully smiling with her head turned so as to suggest to us, the impressionable traveler, that her successful and oily beau-hunk is just feet away finishing off the Hassenpfeffer with pear ragout and will be delivering it to her shortly and that we, too, can own a piece of luxury and this lifestyle.

I want to hit things every time I turn the page to that one.

Comment by Michael Emmel
2008-05-19 23:30:13

You have a page number for that.

After reading that I don’t want to go near a Joshua Tree with a hole in it.

 
 
 
Comment by sfbayqt
2008-05-19 16:56:02

“For several years, the speculator, who asked that her name be withheld to spare her from embarrassment, was able to purchase houses and sell them at a profit.”

Kinda funny that when all these folks were buying up everything, they wanted EVERYONE to know…friends, family, co-workers, folks at the dinner party, bum on the street. But now that they’ve hit the “uh oh!”, it’s all “shhhhhh….”

BayQT~

Comment by Mo Money
2008-05-19 17:10:21

Amazing they had all that money and managed to piss it all away or lose it.

Comment by Michael Emmel
2008-05-19 17:42:06

They did not really ever have cash it was all rolling loans gathering no loss till the fell into a pile of Joshua trees and hit upside the head with a 15lb trout. In short you will find these people actually did not have much in the way of realized gains and what they did make they pissed away.

Comment by sfbayqt
2008-05-19 18:58:15

Yes, and the article doesn’t tell us how they bought the first house or what the terms were. All it says is that they were “successful” buying and selling the houses that the houses. Then the music stopped. No chair to sit in, no more Monopoly houses and no more Monopoly money. I wonder what their loan apps looked like and if the Monopoly money extended to the incomes they declared.

BayQT~

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Comment by hoz
2008-05-19 17:09:33

“Speculators own as many as one in five homes in some newer neighborhoods in the county, and now many are losing those properties.”

We’ve only just begun to live,
White lace and promises
A kiss for luck and we’re on our way.
And yes, We’ve just begun.

Before the rising sun we fly,
So many roads to choose
We start our walking and learn to run.
And yes, We’ve just begun.

That is a scary ratio. I would be running. “Keep the cheese, keep the cheese”, he said curdingly.

Comment by vozworth
2008-05-19 19:03:58

not one but Cali reports on the local wire:
Surgeon friend, finally selling his batchelor pad he bought in 1999, taking 200k less than is he “could” have sold for 2.5 years ago, walking away with 60k…Im not gonna show the number, I dont want to get anyone excited. Condo in Redondo.

numero dos:
staff accountant who sold in ‘05, is getting a nicer house for 200k less than she sold for…location….undisclosed at this time.

tell me what this means, both El Lay area, one beachfront, the other…Im gonna leave it to your imagination.

the business of housing is far, far from over. perspective and expectations can be deceiving…..i before we.

Comment by Michael Emmel
2008-05-19 23:44:03

The problem is the people that can swing a nice profit are moving further and further back in time and thus less likely to move.

The chances of someone who bought in say 1999 moving now are much less than someone who bought later. I’ve never seen actual stats on this but from experience once someone settles in for the long haul they tend to keep the house for a long time. They may move up in the area but thats about it and generally not within 5 years.

The stay at homes buy start house then 5-6 years later or so buy larger home then pretty much sit tight for 10-15 years. Then maybe down size or wait till retirement. Most homes sells seem to be between people that have owned homes for 5 or less years. The mobile work force. Generally if your mobile your moving every 5 years or less if not then its a long time.

The point is that by wiping out the 5 year crowd the number of potential sellers that can sell for a profit is pretty small.

And the crowd that can buy is pretty much the same people.

 
 
 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2008-05-19 17:15:51

hey txchick–saw on the bits bucket that you’re buying index puts again. Mind sharing far out you went on expiration? Thx.

 
Comment by jimbo
2008-05-19 17:38:45

Semi-OT comment from Atlantic City,NJ: My wife got a call today from someone she literally had not seen since graduating high school back in ‘74. She asked me if I remembered him; she didn’t; I told her I might if I broke out an old year book from the attic and looked at his photo. Anyway, classmate said he was relocating back from the left coast and wanted to know if my wife knew of anyone looking to buy real estate. Also said he had extensive experience dealing with sellers facing foreclosures. Wife told him, “No. Sorry.” She thought call was very strange and pathetic. So did I.

Comment by Ouro Verde
2008-05-19 18:06:12

Who would of thought my generation would be up to such silly tricks. Did he even invite you guys out for din din to catch up on old times?
Music from that era: Traffic, Who, Stones and Loggins and Messina. Rock On!

 
Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-05-19 18:16:43

Oh great, now the agents will be scouring classmates.com for piegons. Strange and pathetic indeed.

 
 
Comment by jimbo
2008-05-19 18:27:03

“Music from the era: Traffic, Who, Stones and Loggins and Messina”

One nice thing about living near Atantic City is the classic rock acts the casinos bring in. Within the past five years I caught Dave Mason, John Entwistle, and Bill Wyman. Passed on Loggins and Messina reunion tour. Going to Ringo in june, Zombies in July. Rock on.

Comment by Houstonstan
2008-05-19 19:06:13

Jimbo: Flaming heck. Was Entwistle dressed in white and rattling some chains ? If so he was a ghost since he died in June 2002.

From The Who to the “whooooooo”.

 
 
Comment by INLAND EMPIRE
2008-05-19 18:30:46

Well it looks like we have cross a threshold here in to the reality zone here in the high desert. Housing is really starting to become affordable for your average two wage earners family employed by Mc D’s.. Case in point I give you 15500 Jojoba Ln Victorville Ca. last sold on 4/27/2007 $349k nice area 4/2 1648 sqft…Drum roll please and I’m adding the link for your verification

http://vvmls.rapmls.com/scripts/mgrqispi.dll?APPNAME=Victorvalley&PRGNAME=MLSPropertyDetail&ARGUMENTS=-N691854782,-N147123,-N,-A,-N0
When they get down to this price it is getting close to post time. Matter fact I think I hear Trevor Denman “They’re off and running”!!!!!!

Comment by OCDan
2008-05-19 19:32:32

I gotta admit at 91K, it is tempting. Only problem, I want out of CA. My commute would be 100 miles EACH FREAKIN’ WAY. That area is flat our miles from anywhere. Also, nice view of the power lines (Got cancer?)!

Still and all, 91K is getting there. Hopefully, prices will continue to creep all the way to Rancho Santa Margarita in another 2-3 years.

 
Comment by joeyinCalif
2008-05-19 19:48:26

hmm… a 4/2 with double garage .. paved sidewalk.. not a foreclosure.. not a short sale.. not bad ..
‘cept for that tower which sorta cancels out the underground utilities..

 
Comment by RoundSparrow
2008-05-20 02:58:21

Pictures suck, and you notice the very funky stains on the white garage door?

 
 
Comment by hd74man
2008-05-20 07:51:12

RE: “Still, it sounded like a great idea to Krystal Chamberlin, an accounts receivable clerk at the company. Chamberlin worried that her limited income — the single mother earned about $27,000 a year — would disqualify her.”

“Chamberlin was delighted to hear in November 2006 that National City Mortgage had approved a $477,000 construction loan. She agreed to have her house built in the Roaring Springs subdivision of Sisters.”

A $477k note based on a single mother’s $27k clerk’s salary.

The poster child for Barney Frank’s government bail-out.

Comment by reuven
2008-05-20 08:52:51

Single moms deserve all the money and support we can give them! They’re our nation’s heroes!

 
 
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