Something Went Wrong In The American Dream
Some housing bubble news from Wall Street and Washington. Reuters, “The bond insurance arm of CIFG Holding Ltd, and two other units’ ratings were slashed to junk status by Moody’s Investors Service on Tuesday, due a ‘high likelihood’ the insurer will not meet its capital requirements. Two months ago the insurer had pristine ‘Aaa’ or ‘AAA’ ratings from the major rating firms.”
“The rating cuts ‘reflect the high likelihood that, absent material developments, the firm will fail minimum regulatory capital requirements,’ due to losses stemming from its debt and exposure to subprime mortgages, Moody’s said.”
“In March, Moody’s had estimated CIFG’s expected loss on asset-backed collateralized debt obligations at $433 million, and stress losses, consistent with a 21 percent cumulative loss on 2006 subprime mortgage first liens pools, at $1.3 billion.”
“‘The breach of such regulatory capital requirements would put the firm in a precarious position,’ Moody’s said in a statement, due to the company’s exposure to credit default swaps, Moody’s said.”
“Mitsubishi UFJ Financial Group, with a market value of about $113 billion, said losses related to subprime investments and other securitised products totalled 123 billion yen ($1.18 billion) in the year to March 31, and said it could lose $480 million this year.”
“‘Subprime had a very broad effect on us,’ MUFG CEO Nobuo Kuroyanagi told a news briefing.”
The Post Bulletin. “Something went wrong in the American Dreams of hundreds of thousands of homeowners during the past two years. They found they no longer could afford their mortgage payments. Many also found they could not sell their houses at prices high enough to pay off their mortgages.”
“The ’subprime’ mortgage crisis has spread far beyond some beleaguered neighborhoods and local courtrooms. How could one small corner of the housing market go so bad?”
“‘Subprime mortgage borrowing nearly tripled during the housing boom years of 2004 and 2005,’ Federal Reserve Board chairman Ben Bernanke said in mid-2007 speech.”
“Late last year, Federal Reserve Governor Randall S. Kroszner said in a speech that 7.7 million mortgages, or about 14 percent of the mortgage market, were subprime. About two-thirds of those had variable or adjustable rates.”
“Subprime loans grew to $650 billion by 2005 from about $150 billion in 2003, says Tom Musil, director of the Shenehon Center for Real Estate at the University of St. Thomas in Minneapolis.”
“Some borrowers own houses that are worth thousands of dollars less than what they actually owe in mortgages. Legally, they are on the hook for the payments.”
“The decline in value also creates other problems. For example, ‘The buyer can’t refinance $200,000 when the house is only worth $150,000,’ Musil explains.”
“In extreme cases, some owners, especially those who purchased homes for business instead of a residence simply are refusing to pay and daring lenders to foreclose.”
The Saginaw News. “Victorious Believers Ministries Housing Counseling Agency in Buena Vista Township…aids those looking to buy their first homes and teaches financial literacy, (and) is an affiliate of Mission of Peace, a Housing and Urban Development-approved national housing counseling intermediary.”
“The group’s goal is to help homeowners keep their houses. They work with owners, their lenders and insurance companies to devise a strategy.”
“‘There are too many people walking away from their homes,’ said Evelyn Moten, a Bridgeport Township resident who leads the volunteer agency. ‘It’s happening across all walks of life.’”
“State Rep. Andy Coulouris, chairman of the House Banking and Financial Services Committee, said legislators are addressing the problem of predatory lending.”
“‘One of the problems we see is attempting to regulate the mortgage market in Michigan. Until we have a national solution, we create the risk that the secondary mortgage market will stop,’ he said. ‘If Michigan becomes a hotbed for litigation, Wall Street will stop buying up homes.’”
The New York Daily News. “Devon Honeyghan spent $25,000 renovating the kitchen of his Bronx house in preparation for selling it and moving to Georgia.”
“But two ‘For Sale’ signs and an abandoned house standing all in a row across the street have him doubting he will make any of his money back.”
“Honeyghan, who bought his new house in Georgia at the market’s peak, is so desperate to sell his Bronx home that he offered to buy the abandoned house across the street, which has become an eyesore and is filled with stray cats. He could not because it is locked in a divorce case.”
“‘I just don’t see myself getting my money back,’ he said. ‘I was going to spend $10,000 on the bathroom, but it’s not worth it.’”
“Statistics released this month…show the value of nearly 400,000 homes in the Bronx has dropped $4.9 billion because of surrounding foreclosed homes.”
“‘You see the signs up - ‘For Sale, For Sale, For Sale’ - on every street,’ said Carmen Rosa, district manager of Community Board 12.”
“‘At our board meetings, residents are very concerned about the impact the foreclosures will have on the value of their homes,’ she said, ‘but they are also concerned if someone walks away from their home that people will break in and they will have to become watchdogs.’”
“As for Honeyghan, the real estate industry’s fall has hit him even harder, because his wife is an agent. She has given up her job selling homes to baby-sit.”
“‘She can’t make no money,’ he said. ‘And I can’t carry two mortgages myself. This just doesn’t do any justice for the rest of us.’”
From Forbes. “There was a time in America when losing your home to the mortgage lender was about the worst financial calamity that could befall a person. Not only were you homeless, your dignity was trampled by the repossession of your property.”
“That was Norman Rockwell. This is now.”
“To the distress of many banks and investors, American borrowers are increasingly viewing voluntary foreclosure as a practical financial decision, stripped of its taboo. Perhaps a bigger problem is that banks don’t want to talk about the problem and they don’t appear to know what to do about it.”
“As long as it persists, there will be downward pressure on home prices, especially in overbuilt markets where the supply of housing already outstrips demand.”
“In March, according to RealtyTrac, foreclosures rose 54.0% year-over-year, but bank repossessions surged at double that rate, 129.0%. What accounts for the difference? Rick Sharga, VP of marketing at RealtyTrac, said most March repossessions likely involved walkaways.”
“In mid-April, Chief Risk Officer Don Truslow of Wachovia acknowledged the troubling trend during a conference call. Even more disconcerting, Truslow added that the trend was ‘almost regardless’ of borrowers’ creditworthiness. Lender’s are beginning to report that loan-to-value ratios are better indicators of the likelihood of default than borrowers’ FICO scores.”
“Thomas Kerrigan, a real estate lawyer in New York, said that if a borrower has other assets besides the home, than there is a much greater likelihood that the lender will pursue the deficiency between the total mortgage and the depreciated home price.”
“However, if the lender believes there are no other assets, it will likely make a business decision that it isn’t worth trying to recoup the loss. ‘You can’t,’ Kerrigan noted, ‘get blood out of a stone.’”
“‘Destroyed credit is a still huge deterrent, but if someone is willing to throw their credit score away for seven years then walking away is an option,’ said Nancy Flint-Budde, a certified financial planner in Salem, New York.”
“Because many people ‘went in as investors,’ rather than homeowners, ‘they went in with a different mindset and might be willing to just walkway.’ Flint-Budde added, ‘This is why traditionally people had to put more money down when they borrowed money for a second home or investment property.’”
“Glen Costello, a structured finance officer at Fitch, said that walkaways are nothing new, but this cycle’s factors are. ‘One could understand that if someone had lost their job and all their savings, they were being forced to give up their home,’ said Costello.”
“Now, however, homeowners aren’t as much vulnerable to foreclosure as amenable. They just don’t want to pay high monthly costs for properties in which they do not have stakes.”
National Mortgage News. “A lot of ink has been spilled about lenders working diligently with homeowners who cannot make their payments but who want to keep the house. This tale is about ‘James,’ a loan broker who has a 2/28 mortgage with Countrywide.”
“His loan was a no-downpayment note with an original principal balance of $330,000. James and his wife are looking at new monthly payments of $3,599 compared to a start rate payment of $2,100. He, his wife and two kids live in Sun Valley, a suburb of Los Angeles. His house now has negative equity but they want to stay put.”
“Here’s the catch: his loan is not delinquent. It’s current. One of the chief reasons…his parents have been helping out with the payments. Nonetheless, he called Countrywide and asked to restructure the loan. Eventually, according to him, Countrywide agreed to renegotiate, promising to keep the mortgage at the original start rate.”
“Countrywide said it would send a letter confirming the details. When the letter never arrived, he called the servicer. He was told by a Countrywide rep that no such permission to keep the rate at 5.99% was granted. He said they described the permission as a ‘computer glitch.’”
“James is a self-employed loan broker, not a great business to be in right now. His wife just landed a new job with promise: on Monday she begins work at a collection agency. They hope to hang onto their house. But can they? Question: how many more James’ are out there, people who bought homes at the top of the market, like where they live but are sitting on negative equity and note adjustments?”
“In last week’s column…I asked for ‘post-mortgage career’ stories. Here’s one that caught my eye (edited a bit by me): ‘After 25 years in lending (mostly wholesale) I sent out no less than 50 resumes, responded to numerous job postings and found only scammers and insurance companies willing to talk to me. I never reaped the huge incomes that most of my peers did so I had nothing to fall back on…I have distanced myself from any association with lending because of the negative stigma attached to anybody in the lending business.’”
“‘Although the demise of lending is rooted with Wall Street, the lack of regulation played a big role resulting in the large number of ‘crooks’ and opportunists in the business. I have found that the insurance industry is a bureaucracy and heavily regulated and as such is considered at least an honorable career untainted by scandal.’ — Jack.”
“The ’subprime’ mortgage crisis has spread far beyond some beleaguered neighborhoods and local courtrooms. How could one small corner of the housing market go so bad?”
Alt-A and prime resets are shoes that remain to drop. The denial about ‘one small corner of the housing market’ is still running thick.
Of course it has spread- many people used housing to fund the “American Dream” and are now stuck with a mountain of debt. I also believe that it’s not just sub-prime and Alt-a that’s hurting. I think we will see more and more prime borrowers start to hurt IF they took the jump into the refi, HELOC, and speculative investment game and went too far.
When will the American Dream™ become the American Nightmare™?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Last weekend people around me were still talking about buying lakefront property. It never goes down. My rantings had made the rounds so people discussed it in hushed terms around me. They know I can be rather good at presenting my case so they didn’t want to unleash the beast. They are still dreaming, alright. Dreams are everywhere. But isn’t a nightmare a form of dream?
It’s just fuckin’ extraordinary.
Even if I were loaded up on wine and whisky, I don’t think I could have these delusions.
What is wrong with these people?
I’ve actually met someone who was about to go bankrupt, and she kept talkin’ about buying more lakefront property!!!
WTF?!?!?
Faster Pussycat,
And that Good Sir is precisely what I’ve been trying to wrap my mind around lately. In spite of the fact that these builders/developers/real-turds are on the brink of elimination they remain ever confident that the right property/home/development will somehow save their bacon?
Trust me, by the summer of 2000 you couldn’t GIVE tech stock away. Can anyone explain to us why there is so much resolve, so much tenacity?
You don’t have to own stock. You have to live somewhere. And the NAR has for years and years been effective at convincing the non-thinking that owning carries much more benefit than renting. Considering how sticky things have been to date (as opposed to how fast stocks fell), it makes sense. Unnerving to say the least, but makes sense.
Well NYCityBoy, the only properties selling in my community are the lakefront homes and lots. They don’t stay on the market for long, and prices are holding fairly firm.
Non-lakefront? Dead as the proverbial doornail.
And wait until people realize they are paying a 300% premium to live on a lake in a prolonged economic downturn. The looks on their faces will be sweet.
sleepless_near_seattle,
Sorry about the “budge” folks!
True, very true and as you mention the REIC has never missed the opportunity to exploit that! What I was referring to though was… “the playahs”. Not so much the “end-user” home owners. Yes you do need to live in a house ( but you don’t a dozen of them )
So many of these “infestors” have been repeatedly and soundly kicked in the groin and yet they keep coming back for more!? They’re going to rent-it-out, they’re going to do a lease2own scheme, they’re going to give YOU cash back at closing. No Payments For A Year!
Their creativity seems to know no bounds as they continue to attempt getting out from under their current “bad” deal, but only so they can get into the “next” deal. They just won’t give up. That’s what surprises me.
DinOR,
I know this will label me tinfoil. So be it. I think the craziness still runs deep because this is it for everyone. There are no more bigger bubbles. Sure, there might be some commodity bubbles to come, but the housing/debt bubble is the grandaddy of ‘em all.
For most people RE is the largest purchase they will ever make. It is also the biggest chance outside the lottery they have to ever hit it big in one fell swoop.
For many, it still runs deep because they have mountains of debt from everything from college loans, to upside-down car notes, to 50K in CCs. For others, there is nothing in the tank for retirement.
Therefore, why do think these people are dreaming?
THIS IS IT FOR THEM! If this doesn’t work out, there is no plan B. It is living in the car, if they still have one, in the parking lots of Santa Barbara.
Let’s face it, most of us while still going on with the stiff upper lip, realize the country is broke from the feds all the way to individuals with everything else in between. It is only a matter of time before the rest of the world figures it out and stops supporting us. When that happens, well you oldtimers, already know where I stand on that.
Got soup and a BBQ grill?
OCDan,
No, I happen to think you’re absolutely right. They HAVE to make this work! Bit by bit all of you are helping flesh this thing out. Logic be damnd, they keep frantically tugging at that rip cord even though they know they didn’t bother packing a reserve chute?
How else can we explain the mindset of sellers in areas with 400% increases in foreclosures and 15-20% price corrections lowering their asking price by five grand? I think even though intellectually they understand it’s over, emotionally they just can’t bring themselves to recognize what they KNOW to be real.
Like Faster Pussycat said, a friend on the verge of bankruptcy STILL contemplating yet another RE purchase? So much of this seems self-destructive, almost as if they understand even though it’s a long shot at best, there’s still a possibility it just may pan out. Is this kind of like when a ship’s compartments are filling up with water and sailors are trying to stand on the other guy’s shoulders? It’s not like they could get out or it will stop the ship from sinking but at least they won’t be the first to go?
RE: When will the American Dream™ become the American Nightmare™?
Serious illness, divorce, job loss can strike unexpectedly and without warning.
No one is immune.
There was a time when the standard of living in this country allowed you to recover from such setbacks-but no more.
The US has been living on borrowed time and money for the last half century.
The nightmare is just beginning.
From the 1976 movie, “Network”:
Howard Beale: ‘I’M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I’M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE!’ I want you to get up right now, sit up, go to your windows, open them and stick your head out and yell - ‘I’m as mad as hell and I’m not going to take this anymore!’ Things have got to change. But first, you’ve gotta get mad!… You’ve got to say, ‘I’m as mad as hell, and I’m not going to take this anymore!’ Then we’ll figure out what to do about the depression and the inflation and the oil crisis. But first get up out of your chairs, open the window, stick your head out, and yell, and say it: ‘I’M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I’M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE!’
It hasn’t already? I mean c’mon, this thing’s become like a David Lynch film on acid…….and PCP!
You’re a David Lynch fan? I knew I liked you with the JT metaphor, and then you liked my opera glasses crap.
This is turning more surreal by the day.
It’s become like a walk in Lake Michigan with PCP.
Yeah, and then you come out of Lake Michigan and face a real Chicago winter.
The guy I was thinking of (who took the PCP-laced walk in Lake Michigan) never came out again.
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The House of Representatives overwhelmingly approved legislation on Tuesday allowing the Justice Department to sue OPEC members for limiting oil supplies and working together to set crude prices, but the White House threatened to veto the measure.
Hope that they have better luck they they had with NAR and the REIC gang on speculation, gouging and price fixing
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080520/pl_nm/congress_opec_dc
Is this for real? Foreign countries won’t continue to sell us oil at prices we want because they have other buyers, so we pass a law threatening to sue them. That’ll show ‘em.
Of course the vote was overwhelming, i.e., “bi-partisan”. I don’t see how anyone can imagine in their wildest dreams that either of the two main parties have the slightest clue on what to do about this. Hence my suggestion, undo just about everything you have done on energy policy to date, and promise to do nothing else for at least 10 years. It can only be better than the alternative.
Higher energy prices are here to stay, no matter what, and housing developments built around long commutes are totally screwed for at least a generation.
Next up: Congress passes a law to outlaw inflation. Oh, right, they tried that one, in the 70’s. Anybody still got their WIN button? They’re probably collector’s items.
Very interesting! They are going to “sue who?”
My understanding is that our fine body in D.C. have their “valuable” time tied up investigating steroid use by baseball players.
You could not in eons make this stuff up.
Yeah, like the congress critters have any funds left to pay a team of lawyers to even prosecute this case.
Got Pro Bono?
The oil shieks must be yucking it up over this one bigtime. I trust the Justice Department will use the same process server on them as they used on that guy Osama bin Something or other.
unbelievable! what idiocy.
To give your comment support..
“Truslow added that the trend was ‘almost regardless’ of borrowers’ creditworthiness. Lender’s are beginning to report that loan-to-value ratios are better indicators of the likelihood of default than borrowers’ FICO scores.”
It won’t matter if it’s Alt-A, Conforming, or sub-prime, once these borrowers fully realize that they’re upside down for a long, long time, and they’re wearing themselves out paying for it, they’ll be walking, regardless if they can afford it or not.
Changing gears, isn’t it lovely when it becomes plainly obvious to these guys that negative LTV equals foreclosure, we got the football-humping monkeys in Washington pushing for a FNMA reform that allows 97% LTV purchase in declining markets. Good call!!
And as far as bail-outs go, the thing is this - I believe once these “victim” FB’s sit down to look at the paperwork of their “principal reduction bail-out plan” and see that they won’t reap any future equity gains but rather owe most of it back to the govt, they’ll walk anyway. Then it will be plain for Washington to see that it wasn’t about keeping their house, but rather keeping the Ponzi scheme alive. (of course this last paragraph assumes that such plan will be implemented, which it won’t, and even if it did, makes the assumption that the lenders would play along, which they won’t)
Ever see someone try to reconstruct a crumbling sandcastle while the tide is coming in?
“Ever see someone try to reconstruct a crumbling sandcastle while the tide is coming in?”
———————–
Aren’t they rebuilding New Orleans right now?
20 feet under sea level?
With 3 million empty houses across the country, mostly well above sea level?
ex-nnvmtgbkr,
The thread Ben has just put together is the perfect example of EXACTLY where we’ve been heading since at least 2004. The reason Truslow is surprised is b/c ( as I suspect you well know ) that FICO’s have been totally fabricated over the last several years. So much in fact, they’ve been fairly meaningless for a while.
Having trouble keeping up w/ those pesky credit card and auto payments!? Never fear! Re-Fi Man is here! “Poof” ( Instant good credit )
Rising equity masked a lot of very ill-advised consumer behavior until, well, until it couldn’t. I am willing, I am willing to bet that CountryWide was… perfectly willing to re-negotiate with this young MB UNTIL ( that is ) someone found out he IS… a MB! My guess is that’s the reason for the “computer glitch”.
And this is a good thing. It means that having a downpayment will be ever more important going forward. And, while the FB’s can fiix their credit scores fairly quickly, it takes a while to save a downpayment.
And FICO scores higher on higher CC limits. That’s right, give a homeloaner MORE rope to hang himself with, and a higher credit score to boot!
Very good point. Another example of moronic behavior, that makes prudent people shake their heads and wonder, why?
I have seen the footage of the December 26, 2004 tsunami hitting the beach hotels along the Indian Ocean shore. It was really a nasty surprise for those who did not notice the warning sign of the water line receding from view.
The fleeing animals were also quite the clue that something was wrong.
I’m sure by now CountryWide has gotten a little better control on their “internal memos” but I can see why it might be a double edge sword for them. What little generousity they can afford to extend in terms of loan work-outs shouldn’t be going to former “perps”. Could give them some bad press.
Lender’s are beginning to report that loan-to-value ratios are better indicators of the likelihood of default than borrowers’ FICO scores.”
What about loan-to-income ratio? Or is that too quaint?
Size of downpayment is also doubtless a strong indicator.
They’re getting warmer, but they’re slow, very slow. About two years after it should have been obvious, they’ll finally notice that loan to income ratio was the more important factor.
If if you borrow more than you can repay based on your income, you’re eventually going to have a problem unless you can resell the property for enough more than you paid to cover the transaction costs. If values do anything other than go up, you will be in trouble.
Given how much many borrowed relative to incomes in the few years near the peak of the bubble, the amount any may have made in the form of a down payment only minimally changes this situation. If loan to income ratio is too high, the only option in a declining market is to walk away.
Because if you’re far enough under water on your loan, it doesn’t matter how much money you are making. It’s a losing investment and they’ll dump it. The REIC changed the mentality of home ‘ownership’ to make it into an investment and now they’re seeing the downside of that change in attitude. “Ride your winners and cut your losses.”
“To the distress of many banks and investors, American borrowers are increasingly viewing voluntary foreclosure as a practical financial decision, stripped of its taboo. Perhaps a bigger problem is that banks don’t want to talk about the problem and they don’t appear to know what to do about it.”
I always find this aspect of the bubble fascinating. Corporations and government ought to realize that people can say “It’s just business” as well as any company or govmint entity. Companies have been BKing for years and walking about from obligations, so why shouldn’t people have the same right? I know many of us decry the breakdown in standards and agreement, I certainly do, but the upside is seeing the shoe on the other foot, IMO. Corps have gone completely mad, so what the hell do they expect joeblow to do? What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Nice to know the banks have it all under control, LMAO!
The denial about ‘one small corner of the housing market’ is still running thick.
It seems that this one small corner just cannot accept the fact that home prices are heading downwards. This will continue to put a drag on the recovery efforts.
“In mid-April, Chief Risk Officer Don Truslow of Wachovia acknowledged the troubling trend during a conference call. Even more disconcerting, Truslow added that the trend was ‘almost regardless’ of borrowers’ creditworthiness. Lender’s are beginning to report that loan-to-value ratios are better indicators of the likelihood of default than borrowers’ FICO scores.”
In the history of the national U.S. housing market, has there ever before been a ‘mass walkaway’ from home ownership?
Yes.
It was called the Great Depression. The mansions in Rhode Island sold for less than nothing.
My own building in New York built during the plush years of 1925 when money was no object, and pink Italian marble was but the mere nothingness in the eyes of the then-mega-rich, bears the crude signs yet in 2008.
But I hear everybody wants to live in the Bronx. Bwahaha. They had an episode of “My House is Worth What?” on a couple weeks ago. It was a house in the Bronx. The owner was delighted to find out that his price had TRIPLED in 8 or 9 years. Yep, those Bronx sure are great. And this wasn’t the nice part of Riverdale. God bless us all and pass the ammo.
That Solaria-Solarium whatever the heck it is is gonna turn into the projects real soon.
BWAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!
Solaria. When that started going up I just couldn’t believe it. Condo-mania runs wild in Riverdale.
28,000 condos coming online in Manhattan alone. All priced above $500K.
Took a walk down the waterfront near the West Village. Fancy apartments all 100% empty. Tons of them. Not even a curtain. Every single light was off.
14 signs for rentals amongst the meandering walk in the Village. I’ve never seen that before.
Restaurants are sending coupons daily.
Three families moved out of my building within a year of moving in. Dude tossed out for non-payment of rent. Woman crying in the elevator (although that could be one of those broken-heart things.)
How much evidence before one believes?
“14 signs for rentals amongst the meandering walk in the Village.”
I’m seeing rental signs in brownstones and in small apt. buildings as well. Means the owners are probably trying to skip the rental brokers. This is on the Upper West Side, in the 80s, where apts. have been tough to find. Seeing for rent signs really stops me in my tracks. Also, check out the empty storefronts on Upper Broadway. All the CRE landlords wanted bank tenants…now the banks are here in droves, and the empty storefronts are going untenanted six months, a year…
I live in the 70’s.
There’s carnage in the air. Smell of burning flesh everywhere, and yet, a crapload of denial.
It’s truly extraordinary.
Don’t get me started on the empty storefronts on Broadway and Columbus. It’s totally f*cked up. Some of them have been empty for more than a year. That can’t be rational.
Madness in Long Island City…oh da $1100/sq ft. view …..oh da million dollah view!
http://www.liqcity.com/new-development/eastcoast-3-debuts-as-the-view-rockrose-broker-fees-paid-to-tenants.php
“His loan was a no-downpayment note with an original principal balance of $330,000. James and his wife are looking at new monthly payments of $3,599 compared to a start rate payment of $2,100.”
Wonder how many people he put into ticking time bomb loans like that as a lender? Getting trapped like that himself…seems like perfect justice.
No different than a drug dealer using his own product. I believe RealTards as a group are most guilty of this stupidity resulting in a completely seized up housing market.
Good job morons.
“His loan was a no-downpayment note with an original principal balance of $330,000. James and his wife are looking at new monthly payments of $3,599 compared to a start rate payment of $2,100.”
Math illeracy reigns supreme again in this country. How the heck did this guy get a monthly of $3,600?
At 6% you can borrow 100K for 600/month. Therefore, 330K should be no more than 1,980/month! Good grief, this guy has got to be in the 8-10% rage. Maybe someone else can use an internet calculator. Too lazy to do it myself. Nonetheless, his rate has to be enormous, or he isn’t telling us that he rolled some HELOCs and CCs and car payments into a ginormous housing payment.
I.E., sure my ORIGINAL mortgage is 330K, but after the refi, it is now 500K. Even then, at 6%, he would only be at 3K/month. This guy is truly screwed.
Also, notice how doublefried backed out on a computer glitch. RIGHT! And, I’m Santy Claus. Doublefreid isn’t renegotiated any time soon w/any debtors. Especially with their cash sitcheeation.
Good luck w/that company. We had them as our note holder before we sold. We were on a fixed and never had any problems. However, I am still glad to be done w/that company.
“Lender’s are beginning to report that loan-to-value ratios are better indicators of the likelihood of default than borrowers’ FICO scores.”
Gee, do you really think so?
And yet there is congressional pressure to lower downpayment requirements. Yeh, nothing like the hair of the dog that bit you.
“Lender’s are beginning to report that loan-to-value ratios are better indicators of the likelihood of default than borrowers’ FICO scores.”
Gee, do you really think so?
I know, do you think all those years of down payments and savings and buy at 3x gross income were just for the heck of it? Nope, banks did that to make sure you were in a house you could actually AFFORD over the long haul.
Yeah, these hotshots couldn’t see it coming are so full of it. I and all you guys here for AT LEAST the last 2+ years have been wailing about lending 500-900K to a family that is fortunate enough to even make 150K /year, let alone less than that.
You didn’t even have to be a little Einstein to figure out that at 100K/year, it would take take anywhere from 5-10 years to pay off a note that high and that is using complete gross income.
Also, a 900K house would cost w/interest, 2.25 million over 30 years. Assuming a fixed rate, that is anywhere from 5-7K a month for 360 MONTHS. Sure, making 100-200K/yr., that is a recipe for BK, if I ever seen one.
Didn’t matter to these guys and gals as long as the 30K/month commission checks were being cashed each month.
SICK. JUST. SICK!
How to talk to people who are out of work:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/18/fashion/18layoff.html
NY Times doesn’t concentrate so much on loan originators turned babysitters, but the idea that these articles are coming out so early on in this downturn is very scarey.
Having been in that boat in 2001 I can sympathize. Even though I walked out the door with a 6 month severance check, I was stunned. Fotunately I found a new job within 2 months, in spite of 9/11 happening right in the middle of my search. Of course it paid about 20% less than the old one, but at that point I wasn’t about to be fussy.
Yeah, and you had flexibility with the wage you could accept. Today’s FBs have no wiggle room whatsoever. Maybe congress should look into wage supports too? (I mean except for just themselves)
Robert Reich was actually advocating something like this - underemployment insurance for people who had to take a lower paying job but needed some help to adjust to a lower living standard. I guess he meant you could get a few hundred bucks a month while you moved to a less expensive apartment, traded in the SUV for a compact car and learned how to cook. Never heard it mentioned again, but he was talking about it on NPR (morning edition). I thought it was quite a while ago - defintely years so well before this crisis, but, like I said, I never heard it mentioned anywhere else.
Where was that kind of insurance when I needed it?
And the jobs for smart people are disappearing so damn fast it incredible.
Pay is not the issue for me, i just have to have a job i like. I like being a wedding dj. I liked working in TV and at Court TV all during OJ….I liked being a paralegal, I liked a lot of things, but its time to move on but to what?
This is what i get everyday when i post my resume…..I’m almost desperate to take it.(at least its not a MLM work for FREE scam)
—————————————
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Thank you for your time — and happy joking!
TheReelComic.com
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It’s probably too late for you to see it on this thread, but start looking at manufacturing. An assembly position on Long Island (Suffolk county) pays over $15/hour. You need to be detail oriented and mechanically inclined. You don’t need a degree (or too many brains …. the work does get dull).
Another economic indicator: the BIL of a co-worker was laid off from Sysco (the food company) with no warning. The reason was that business was too slow with their restaurant clients- he was in sales.
I always love that strategy. When business is slow, fire the folks that bring in business.
Unless, of course, he wasn’t bringing in business….
I’ve known many salespeople who put in like 20 hours a week (when they were supposed to be putting in 40 like the rest of us). MANY. Good luck to ‘em, I say.
I didn’t get laid off until about 18 months after September 11th and it took me a heck of a lot longer than 2 months to find a job (thank goodness for savings), but I don’t think I was ever completely unable to talk about the fact that I had been laid off as the people in the article. Partly because my former employers gave me a few months support at an outplacement firm and everyone was in the same boat. Partly because it is impossible to look for work if you can’t say that you don’t have a job. You can’t lie in an interview and say you are still working - they will catch you and good bye potential job.
I took a 20% pay cut too - and had to pay my own moving expenses. Not at risk for a lay off this time around, but this is starting to feel very different to me. Last time, the articles in the Times in the early days were all about baby investment bankers getting laid off with a year of severance pay and immediately planning 6 month vacations in southeast Asia. They didn’t hit the articles about former masters of the universe fighting over t-shirt folding jobs in the Gap until much, much later.
I took a 20% pay cut too
Its been an uphill battle just to get back to where I was 7 years ago. Of course if you factor inflation I’m still way behind.
I’m just back to even with what I was making in February of 2003. That includes 2 promotions.
Like you said, it is still less with inflation but here I get a transportation subsidy (for public transportation) and I insisted on renting within walking distance of the train station, so I figure I am actually about even.
From the article:
““You’re caught between the need to show you care and the fear of offending because you’re reminding them of something painful.””
(gently lobbed toward ex-)
“‘She can’t make no money,’ he said. ‘And I can’t carry two mortgages myself. This just doesn’t do any justice for the rest of us.’”
Um, wonder if they bought a house at peak in GA BEFORE selling their current Bronx home on wifey’s RE advice?
What’s justice got to do with it? They accepted two mortgages. Seems to me you should sell your house BEFORE you take on another, even if you have to rent meanwhile… but then, gee, I’m just naive.
M.
But they had to buy RIGHT THEN or they would be priced out forever.
Yeah, this “priced out forever” business. How’s that working out for everyone?
“this just doesn’t do any justice for the rest of us.’”
I believe this is the nanny state talking…anything I make in some get rich quick scheme is all mine, but if it doesn’t work out profitably, then the government better be ready with cash and sympathy to fix it all for me. And these escapees from the nursery are the members of the “ownership society”.
I know a couple who used to live in this neighborhood, and then they decided that they REALLY wanted out. So, they purchased another house without selling their existing house first.
Not to worry, said the real estate agent. They’d have no problem selling because their house was on a double lot.
It took eight months to sell. Which meant that they were carrying two mortgages during that time.
Methinks that they’re still recovering financially, as the wife has come out of retirement to take a cashiering job in a grocery store.
That TV show “My house is worth what?” is freakin hilarious. Near the end of the show the RE comes out and estimates the “market” price of the house after the renovations.
“You’re house is worth $600K”. The homeowners act like they hit thejackpot. Then before the show ends they state that the house languished for six months or is either taken out of the market or is being rented or in foreclosure.
I need my fix for today. I’ll heckle a RE on the phone.
Rating agencies are a joke. Bear Stears was rated investment grade the day it collapsed.
Bear Stearns is a case study in and of itself. On the day they collapsed BSC had an open LOC for over $40B. Why didn’t they ever use it? I know the banks in Japan that authorized the LOC were relieved it was unused. Apparently BSC thought the letter had been canceled.
What was in it for the management?
There were gonna lose their wealth anyway. Why would you work so hard for an effort that would fail anyway without any possible payoff?
Hoz, we’re talking about humans. There are no magic dancing corporations, just ones filled with ordinary humans and all the emotions they embody.
1)”What was in it for management?”
I could list the conspiracy theories floating in NY, but I do not believe one of them. There was so much money involved that JP Morgan will be defending itself for another decade.
2) Very true. But a comedy of errors in the corporate world that has not been seen in decades. And the innocent lost jobs.
What innocent lost jobs?
I will not relist the obvious fact that I was in that building on that Friday (by sheer coincidence.)
I was dying to see to a jumper for ol’ times sake.
But there are no jumpers these days because why would a rational human jump? It’s just a job.
Is this propensity for ratings to vanish out of sight over night something new, or is it just more noticeable in the post-Enron era than before?
Looked up a loan down the street. House bought at the top for $280K with $270K loan. Mentioned to my wife that I just saw a subtrust (changing the trustee, which seems to happen just before a foreclosure filing).
She thought about it for a second… Wow. That is $100K more than we owe. Yeah, I know…. says I. Shocking, isn’t it.
After weeks of poking around in the foreclsoure data, I’m becoming desensitized. I see a loan going bad for $140K and think, wow, that is a tiny loan… Surely anyone can make the payments on that. Then I remember just how much money that is to someone making under $50K in today’s world were wages are not close to keeping up with inflation.
One more aside. Found a first for me today. A condo going into bankruptcy due to…. divorce. I know… I’m shocked too. I’ve seen so many 3,6,9+ foreclosures per person as wannbe Trumps eat dirt. Someone impacted by divorce really stands out as an anomoly.
Darrell, are you finding this stuff out via the Maricopa County Assessor and Treasurer websites? Or are you also using the County Recorder website as well?
Here in Pima County, you have to get a paid subscription to the County Recorder’s data, and ole Slim is too cheap to pay for that.
County Recorder is my drug of choice. I’m addicted, it is mind expanding, and it is frying my mind while destroying my life.
Having tried to find data in other counties, I’m all the more happy for maricopa county recorder site…. but I bet about now they are wishing they did not do so well with it.
A $140k mortgage may seem small, but $50k salary goes very quick if someone is carrying a lot of debt.
Arguably someone earning $50k doesn’t really have any business buying a $140k house, not without a substantial downpayment. The 3-times-income rule doesn’t really scale below a certain income, because there are other expenses that don’t get cheaper just because income is lower. And a lot of those expenses are now proving not to be stable or predictable (gasoline, food, etc.)
National Mortgage News. “A lot of ink has been spilled about lenders working diligently with homeowners who cannot make their payments but who want to keep the house. This tale is about ‘James,’ a loan broker who has a 2/28 mortgage with Countrywide.”
“His loan was a no-downpayment note with an original principal balance of $330,000. James and his wife are looking at new monthly payments of $3,599 compared to a start rate payment of $2,100. He, his wife and two kids live in Sun Valley, a suburb of Los Angeles. His house now has negative equity but they want to stay put.”
“Here’s the catch: his loan is not delinquent. It’s current. One of the chief reasons…his parents have been helping out with the payments. Nonetheless, he called Countrywide and asked to restructure the loan. Eventually, according to him, Countrywide agreed to renegotiate, promising to keep the mortgage at the original start rate.”
“Countrywide said it would send a letter confirming the details. When the letter never arrived, he called the servicer. He was told by a Countrywide rep that no such permission to keep the rate at 5.99% was granted. He said they described the permission as a ‘computer glitch.’”
“James is a self-employed loan broker, not a great business to be in right now. His wife just landed a new job with promise: on Monday she begins work at a collection agency. They hope to hang onto their house. But can they? Question: how many more James’ are out there, people who bought homes at the top of the market, like where they live but are sitting on negative equity and note adjustments?”
—————————
A loan broker getting trapped by a resetting time-bomb loan?
The wife becoming a collections agent while they are trying to put together workouts on their own debt and getting the runaround?
If there’s anyone out there who wants to try their hand at writing a modern Greek comedy/tragedy or an opera, this is their chance for greatness - the material is there for the taking…
az_owner,
Don’t forget Achilles!
“the demise of lending is rooted in Wall Street”
Right… Sure. When investors became skittish about what was going on, MB’s just tweaked the income/DTI until they got a number that WOULD fly! ( But it’s Wall Street’s fault? )
No link in the chain is innocent in this mess. Wall Street was fueling the frenzy with their demand for collateralized debt. “Get me some loans - any loans!”
Chain:
FB - Realtor - Loan Broker - Wall Street - Collateralized Debt Buyer
Providing the fuel:
FCBs holding down FX rates and creating vast glut of US$ for investing (and spurring US over-consumption).
Greenspan - holding the finger to everyone holding US$ by keeping Fed rates low.
Eventually, according to him, Countrywide agreed to renegotiate, promising to keep the mortgage at the original start rate.”
It is a constitutional RIGHT in America. The low teaser rate MUST be made permanent…it is only fair…
The fact that the company said it was a computer glitch instead of just denying that it ever happened means he must have gotten a name and/or ID number from the guy on the phone who made the promise. This is actually a higher quality of FB than we normally see in these stories….
Trucking company Jevic went under today.
The husband of a girl I work with was running a small trucking company with an office near my house. While driving by a few weeks ago I saw a hand written sign on the door: “no longer in business”.
Had a trucking/warehousing company as a client last year. Long story short, they were total buttheads to work with, and we parted ways.
I have friend who still works there — sold her company to them, in fact. All I can say is that I hope she gets out of there before the S really HTF.
dang- trucking was my bright side as service contracting is really screwed
dang
I really like trucking.
Oh wait, was that the Scotch talking?
Downtown - it’s different here.
Where Home Prices Are Holding Up from Wall Street Journal
Downtown: It’s been among the safest places to hide from the housing downturn.
San Francisco
“I get buyers who come in thinking they’re going to get a real bargain these days because prices are down all over the country, and we just laugh,” says Caroline Werboff, an agent with San Francisco real-estate firm Hill & Co.
Los Angeles
L.A. is an anomaly. No real urban core exists. The area is just a sprawling string of suburbs that run together.
And most of that sprawl is bathed in red ink.
On zillow, the end of that graph points down…
L.A. prices are up??? Hummm…
and we just laugh
See how hard you’re laughing a year from now. Even Beverly Hills and Newport Beach aren’t immune to the cycle:
“You can’t have one market hugely cheaper than another forever,” said UC Berkeley professor Thomas Davidoff, who specializes in real estate.
Of course anyone who was cognizant during the last bust knows this is nothing new:
high-priced homes are indeed on a much steeper downward slope than homes priced closer to the median.
According to Dataquick, a median-priced home in Beverly Hills (zip code 90210) hit a peak of $1,485,000 in November 1990. But as of February 1993, that figure has slid to $780,000, a 47.5 percent plummet.
In Brentwood, the price as of February 1993 had tumbled by 34.7 percent from its June 1990 peak, and in the Palos Verdes Peninsula, by 31 percent from its June 1990 peak.
“To the distress of many bankers and investors……..
Cry me a river…..We’ve been watching for thirty years how business big and small have been using the bankruptcy laws to screw people over on their paychecks, benefits, pensions, you name it. Now they are surprised that the regular J6P views it as a viable option.
Payback…..it’s a bitch.
Steve Forbes= “(What a) Capitalist Tool”
That’s why it’s called a DREAM….because it isn’t real..it’s an illusion. You don’t bring over millions of duped immigrants from all over the world by the telling them the truth. You offer them a lie and perpetuate it by making them borrow money to give instant gratification.
This is about as far from explaining how this happened you could possibly get. But tin foil is cheap.
Plunge in US commercial property
By Daniel Pimlott in New York
Published: May 20 2008 20:34 | Last updated: May 20 2008 20:34
Commercial property prices in the US in February saw their sharpest decline since records began nearly 15 years ago as sources of finance for deals has dried up, according to data from Standard & Poor’s out yesterday.
The value of commercial buildings fell 1.03 per cent between January and February, the largest monthly decline since at least 1993, when the industry was just emerging from a deep slump.
Knew this was coming. At least for PHX.
In about 5 years, we DOUBLED the amount of retail space in this town. Everywhere I look are new office condos that are mostly empty. In the nearest stip mall to me, there was a WaMu Home Loan Center.. gone. A commercial property management company… gone.
In the nearest strip mall to me, there’s a restaurant that went under last summer. The space is still vacant.
….well, speaking of the American Dream morphing in to a nightmare, looks like the HousingBubble BLOB has oozed in to Austin…anyways, just who are these “real estate experts” who asset that Austin’s housing market is “resilient”?
From today’s Austin American Statesman:
“Pending sales — sales that are expected to close in May or June — plummeted 56 percent, the highest drop on record. However, that doesn’t necessarily mean the actual drop will be that steep.”
“Active listing shot up above 10,000, up 20 percent from a year ago.”
“Despite sagging numbers, real estate experts continue to assert that the Austin area housing market has been resilient compared to the rest of the country. Last year and 2006 were the two strongest years for Austin-area home sales, even while the much of the country’s housing market declined.”
“However, that doesn’t necessarily mean the actual drop will be that steep.”
Considering the fact that almost by definition only X percent of pending sales close, I’d say it absolutely means that the actual drop WILL be that steep, if not steeper.
What a maroon!
And I wonder how many “passive listings” there are behind the active listings - say, where realtor-owners list a unit or two in a complex, but actually have more than that they will show / sell.
“As for Honeyghan, the real estate industry’s fall has hit him even harder, because his wife is an agent. She has given up her job selling homes to baby-sit.”
“‘She can’t make no money,’ he said. ‘And I can’t carry two mortgages myself. This just doesn’t do any justice for the rest of us.’”
a realtor turned baby sitter….love it!! Is she reporting the income? prob not.
“Is she reporting the income? prob not.”
Actually, probably. For the parents to get the child care tax credit, they have to list the SSN or business license of whom they gave the money to, and it gets checked by the IRS.
WTF…. Fannie is loosening applicant requirements now?
“Something went wrong in the American Dreams of hundreds of thousands of homeowners during the past two years. They found they no longer could afford their mortgage payments. Many also found they could not sell their houses at prices high enough to pay off their mortgages.”
I hate this kind of writing that is at best careless and at worst intentionally slanted. People “found they could no longer afford …” and “found they could not sell …”
They didn’t “find” themselves in that situation, as if by happenstance. They “put” themselves in that predicament for the most part, with certain exceptions I’m sure.
This gives the impression that everything was going along swimmingly, then suddenly I “found” myself in a bad situation with no clue how I’d gotten there.
More crappy pseudo-victim characterizations by the MSM.
Agreed. But renters aren’t newspaper subscribers.
They do the same thing with SUV drivers who drive 80mph down the highway, then “suddenly” find themselves upside down in the ditch. Newspapers writers are masters of the passive voice. They really like to mask who was actually responsible for what happened.
When I was a college-pup, I took journalism courses and wrote for the campus paper. In both places, I was taught to avoid the passive voice.
I was taught to avoid the passive voice.
Looks like you refused to be indoctrinated!
“They really like to mask who was actually responsible for what happened.”
A from who do you think they learned that skill from?