June 2, 2008

Everybody Thought There Would Be No End To The Demand

The Denver Post reports from Colorado. “Owners with units for sale in the towering Beauvallon building at East 10th Avenue and Lincoln Street are struggling to sell their units because a lawsuit against the developer is dissuading potential buyers and hanging up financing for anyone still interested. Of the 26 properties listed for sale in the 210-unit Beauvallon, 12 are either in foreclosure or listed for less than the seller owes on the mortgage.”

“HOA dues for the penthouse units are more than $1,300 a month, and fees for an 800-square-foot unit are nearly $400 a month. ‘People can’t afford the mortgage and the HOA,’ said Emmett Carr, an agent who has a listing in the building.”

“Many of the units are priced way too high, said Sharon Shepherd, an agent who also has a listing in the building.”

“‘A lot of the sellers have first and seconds (mortgages) on their loans,’ she said. ‘When they refinanced, their property was appraised for more than it should have been in order to get the second. I’ve gotten some calls from investors, but the numbers aren’t working for them because the sellers can’t go low enough.’”

The Arizona Daily Star. “Think you know what your house is worth? You might want to take a deep breath and think again. The rising number of foreclosures is reducing property values in a possibly unprecedented way. Not only are foreclosed properties flooding the market, but they are also becoming the only standard of comparison for other homes sold in some areas.”

“Foreclosed properties usually are not included in appraisals because they are considered under ‘duress’ and not reflective of fair market value, said Bruce Smith, of Equity Valuation Services. However, ‘when those become predominant in the neighborhood, then they become the market,’ Smith said.”

“Casa Grande real estate broker Bill Bridwell said about 90 percent of sales he has handled recently have been bank-owned homes.”

“Fred Brodsky, director of the Brodsky School of Real Estate, said the number of foreclosures in the market is unusual, even for a downturn. ‘I’ve been through three cycles, but I’ve never it seen it this bad,’ he said.”

“In comparison, other houses on the market often seem overpriced, agents said. ‘A lot of stuff out there isn’t going to sell,’ said agent George Cardieri.”

“The high number of foreclosure sales is necessary “to clean up the mortgage lending excesses of the past few years” said Marshall Vest, director of the Economic and Business Research Center at the University of Arizona’s Eller College of Management.”

“‘All these properties are going to need to be marked down and find new owners before this correction process is complete,’ Vest said.”

“In April, the median price dropped about 13 percent from the previous year to $195,000, according to statistics from the Tucson Association of Realtors MLS. Although prices are starting to come down, buyers said many existing homes still seem overpriced, especially for some older homes and fixer-uppers.”

“Misty Shaw, who is building (a) home in Lakeside Ridge, said she was surprised by some of the problems she saw in resale homes. One, she was told, had wiring problems and would blow a fuse if the washing machine and dishwasher were run at the same time.”

“Another house, owned by a California investor, Shaw considered overpriced. She put in a bid for about $25,000 less than the asking price, and ‘they didn’t even counter,’ she said. ‘Their house is still up for sale.’”

The Arizona Republic. “When home builders gather these days to talk about the state of their industry, all conversations eventually circle back to the one inescapable question: Who among them will survive?”

“Meritage Homes executives Steve Hilton and Larry Seay say that because their company is backed by public shareholders, generating consistent revenue and making itself right with today’s market realities, it is ideally positioned to endure the current slump.”

“Despite the complexities of corporate finance, Meritage’s future success hinges on something very simple: its continued ability to build - and sell - homes. CEO Seay, said Meritage is on pace to sell 5,500 to 6,000 homes this year, a significant decrease from the 10,487 homes it sold in 2006.”

“Another short-term problem for Meritage is clearing its inventory of all the land it bought at 2005 prices, for which the company will lose money on every sale.”

“Meritage analyst Eric Brown said pressure from Wall Street to grow earnings each quarter placed added strain on publicly owned home builders, prompting them to expand operations too quickly into unfamiliar territory.”

“‘It’s always, ‘What have you done for me lately?’ Brown said.”

“Seay said the company’s detour into land speculation was fueled by that pressure, as well as by opportunity and ambition.”

“‘We’ve always said we were a home builder and not a land speculator,’ he said. ‘We probably got a little bit off our basics because we were being a little greedy.’”

The Review Journal from Nevada. “The appointed bankruptcy trustee for Mira Villa condominiums has filed two motions necessary to get the project finished and sold, an attorney for one of the major creditors said.”

“One motion is for a $46 million bond to complete first-phase construction, market the project and pay interest on loans, said Jerry Gordon of the law firm, representing Nevada State Bank. The second motion is to allow the sale of condo units as they’re completed to pay off the existing debtor-in-possession loan and to authorize the sale of units to existing buyers and new buyers, Gordon said.”

“‘It’s really sad that the bankruptcy court is allowing this and hired a trustee who doesn’t have any concern about contractor debt,’ said Mike Lee, president of a general engineering contractor. ‘Their only concern is to finish the project. The contractors are the real losers in this deal.’”

“Alan Schrimpf, chief operating officer of Southern Vegas Valley Contracting, figures his firm is out $190,000 for concrete work. ‘We’re done. All the subs get nothing,’ he said.”

The Las Vegas Business Press from Nevada. “Some suggest the Las Vegas housing market hit bottom in the first quarter of 2008. Others contend the bottom might not be reached until the end of this year or early 2009, and any recovery won’t occur until new jobs are created by resorts opening on the Strip in 2009 and 2010.”

“Tim Sullivan, president of Sullivan Group Real Estate Advisors, said the market must pay for its sins before it improves. ‘Don’t discount foreclosures and their impact on the market. They will be with us prominently through the fall,’ Sullivan said.”

“Terry Jones, vice president of AmTrust Bank, says the housing market is close to its bottom if not there already. He said some existing homes are selling for less than $90 a square foot, and it’s hard to imagine builders going much lower with prices.”

“Builders have been relying less on incentives and more on pricing. In May, the amount of incentives fell to $18,782, down from a high of $27,436 in October, according to the Sullivan Group.

New-home prices are falling faster than existing-home prices since Jan. 1, giving buyers some options, said Ken Perlman, vice president of Sullivan Group. Traditionally, there is a 15 percent to 18 percent spread between new and existing homes but it’s now closer to 12 percent.”

“‘It is certainly something to watch,’ Perlman said.”

“New homes priced under $250,000 accounted for 42 percent of the sales during the first quarter. Seventeen percent of new-home sales were under $200,000, Perlman said.”

The Nevada Appeal. “Short sales were rare in Carson City a few years ago, but 2008 is on track to have the fewest number of home sales in 20 years and the most number of foreclosures in seven years.”

“The average price of a home sold is also so far this year lower that the past three years, which, from 2000 to 2005, had risen by nearly $175,000.”

“According to the MLS, 41 such homes in Carson City and Carson Valley being marketed as short sales.”

“Real estate agents were discouraged from bringing up the option of short sales a few years ago, said Alan Saunders of Realty Executives Nevada’s Choice in Carson City, and lenders were unlikely to approve them because they could foreclose on the house and recoup the costs through a sale.”

“Short sales are much more common now, however, he said, and many agents are taking classes on the topic to keep up with the market and customer demand.”

“‘So many of my clients come in and say, ‘What am I going to do?’ Saunders said.”

“Short sales are for owners already in ‘bad shape,’ said Red Dalen of ERA Pioneer Properties in Carson City, but the short sale at least ‘leaves them with some dignity.’”

The Deseret News from Utah. “For the past few years, the summertime heat of Utah’s Dixie has been matched by the area’s scorching hot real estate market. Home prices increased over a five-year span by an astounding 73 percent, making the St. George metropolitan statistical area among the top appreciating housing markets in the nation.”

“Plenty of folks, from all ends of the real estate spectrum, were making a lot of money. But late last summer, that trend came to a screeching halt.”

“‘I think it was the 12th of August. Foreclosure rates came in for subprime loans at 11 percent, and immediately the market dropped,’ said Melody Knowlton, a local mortgage loan officer. ‘Everything was shut down, except for conventional loans. There was no notice at all on subprime loans. They were just gone.’”

“Many St. George-area homeowners with subprime loans have either defaulted or are poised to lose their investments. Many of those people find it a difficult subject to discuss. A police officer agonized over breaking the coming news of an imminent foreclosure on his home to his wife and in-laws.”

“His plight, he said, made him ‘feel like a big loser.’”

“Knowlton said her customers are suffering in today’s market, and there’s very little she can do to help many of them. ‘Before, I could qualify nine out of 10 applicants. Now, I can qualify one out of 10,’ she said. ‘You have to have a big down payment and really good credit to qualify for a loan now.’”

“Knowlton said she tried to help Jaime and Tishanne Stout refinance a beautiful home they had built in Washington city but found it was an impossible task. ‘Their home isn’t worth as much as they owe on it now,’ she said, adding the house appraised for more than $370,000 a year ago and now can’t be listed anywhere near that price.”

“‘It’s my dream home,’ said Tishanne Stout. ‘We built another house, and I guess we should have stayed in that one instead of selling it and building this one.’”

“The Stouts are like many other couples who work in the construction trade here, building a home and selling it to cash in a nice profit before building another house that is even bigger and better than the last one.”

“There are a lot of houses like the Stouts’ home with a ‘For Sale’ sign planted out front, but there are even more listed with no one living in them. Only six of the homes in the Stouts’ neighborhood are occupied, which can lead to a sort of eerie feeling for those who do live there.”

“Entire subdivisions throughout the county are dotted with signs that beckon buyers, but there are few takers.”

“Developer Garret Bangerter of Bangerter Homes said the current southern Utah market is flooded with undeveloped lots and new home inventory, which is also helping to drive down prices in the area. Much of that decrease is due to the reduction in land prices, Bangerter added.”

“‘When everything went crazy a couple of years ago, everybody got into a frenzy and thought they were going to get rich developing lots,’ he said. ‘Everybody jumped in and bought land, and now the Metrostudy group is telling us there is going to be an eight-year supply of lots available.’”

“Bangerter said just three years ago, lots to build homes on were scarce, and the demand was extremely high. Now that situation has reversed itself. He attributed the change to the aggressiveness of seasoned developers and speculators trying to make big money in the hot real estate market.”

“‘Everybody thought there would be no end to the demand, and now we have an oversupply,’ Bangerter said. ‘Prices have definitely been coming down as developers realize there is an oversupply.’”




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66 Comments »

Comment by Ben Jones
2008-06-02 14:02:20

‘Two Nevada development groups have filed a lawsuit against D.R. Horton Inc., claiming the nation’s largest homebuilder has missed payments on a large master-planned community. The groups claim DRHI Inc., a subsidiary of Fort Worth, Texas-based D.R. Horton, has failed to pay more than $4 million plus interest in costs related to the Park Highlands development in North Las Vegas.’

‘The group is developing a 2,675-acre, 16,000-home residential community in the suburban outskirts, 15 miles north of the Las Vegas Strip.’

Comment by David Cee
2008-06-02 16:40:11

“has failed to pay more than $4 million plus interest in costs related to the Park Highlands development in North Las Vegas.’”

STOP THE INSANITY ! What does it take for the bankers to stop giving money to build more houses in a Las Vegas enviornment that already is #1 in foreclosures. And who approved a project 15 miles outside of town in $4.00 a gallon time. The financial guys need to have a stake driven thru their heart so we can start working off the inventory of avaiable houses.

Comment by sm_landlord
2008-06-02 16:42:33

The builders and the bankers are fulfilling their commitment to create more affordable housing…

They just don’t realize it yet. :-)

 
 
Comment by johnfromia
2008-06-02 16:58:13

Let’s see, what would be the worst business to be in right now? Maybe one that would be hurt by rising gas prices (check), bursting of the housing bubble (check), and tighter credit (check). Not much fun at Winnebago these days.

Winnebago to Idle Some Production As Consumer Confidence Declines:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121243855054238971.html?mod=wsjcrmain

Excerpt: “The $15 billion RV industry has been among the less-heralded casualties of the mortgage and housing crises, according to manufacturers and dealers. But the impact has been severe. . .
Industry watchers say couples in or nearing their 50s are the core market for motor homes and travel trailers. These couples are delaying their purchases of RVs, largely because they would typically have financed them by selling or borrowing against their homes. That has become more difficult as home values have plunged nationwide. Meanwhile, banks and other lenders, many battered by mortgage-related losses, have grown more reluctant to make RV loans, demanding higher interest rates and better credit scores.

Comment by Mo Money
2008-06-02 17:07:03

Not to mention all the barely used RV’s sold in past years that are now sitting on dealers lots in direct competition. Looks like there was an RV bubble too.

Comment by ex-nnvmtgbrkr
2008-06-02 17:23:45

Click on RV’s in Craiglist. It’s mind-boggling.

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Comment by sm_landlord
2008-06-02 18:20:53

Just for kicks, I did what you suggested.

It looks to me like the nice RVs are for sale at serious wishing prices, at least around the LA area. I saw a 2004 Prevost rig with 34,000 miles on it for the low, low price of $719,000.00

Now for $150K or so, that’s a nice bus. Otherwise, let someone else pay to store it and I’ll rent one when I want to use it.

 
Comment by Leighsong
2008-06-02 18:32:47

We did Ex’m!

found a gorgious Scampy and parked it on SILs free lot on a nice lake!

Woooooooooooohooooooooooo - sleeps six with a nice bath too!

Yay!
Leigh ;)

 
Comment by joeyinCalif
2008-06-02 21:10:33

I’ve been window shopping a motorhome for about 6 or 8 months..
Asking prices on used rigs i would consider are still averaging around 1/3 above blue book (NADA). People seem to believe their rig is special. Prices for the few new units i’ve kept track of haven’t budged at all.

There’s some desperation but not much… i see the occasional Moving! .. Must Sell!.. no where to park it .. Reduced!.. but asking prices are not at all desperate. I’ve come to the conclusion that not a lot of them were purchased with HELOC money.

Whatever fallout there is from housing / credit problems, it has yet to hit the RV market, imo. It seems to have more staying power. But, just as with everything else, it’ll get dragged down sooner or later.

 
 
 
Comment by NoSingleOne
2008-06-02 17:10:09

I would love to spend my golden years in an RV, but only when they get >30 miles per gallon. Luckily, I’m still in my 30’s, so I’m definitely not in a rush.

Comment by Jimmy from Da Bronx
2008-06-02 17:59:28

Less than 30 miles to a gallon? You ever drive an RV? LOL….those things eat gas like a boat! 15 MPG is GREAT!

The real problem with them is the $500+/payment while it’s sitting in your driveway collecting leaves, dust and mice!

People are SOOOO bad at math. They’ll sell their paid off monster Expedition or Escalade, Durango etc so they can pick up a new Prius at a premium price….get creamed on the SUV trade in and sign themselves up for another fancy new car note! OH! Plus the $4.00+ gasoline!!!!

Buy a fuel efficient car now or be priced out forever!

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Comment by Alan Davis
2008-06-02 17:36:29

You are going to start seeing a lot of stories like this. A friend of mine’s son plays on a baseball team with the owner/CEO of a big housing builder. Has private jets fly the kids to games across the country. Meanwhile his company is hemorrhaging cash, investors are getting killed but I bet he cashed out.

I know little people not getting paid by big builders.

PS, I responded to some comments over on the Mouse post.

 
Comment by ex-nnvmtgbrkr
2008-06-02 17:39:31

Hey man, that’s the homebuilder way. If they ain’t making money, then no one gets paid. You should hear all the sub-contractors howling up here in NNV. Oh how the mechanic’s liens are a flyin ‘.

 
 
Comment by EggMan
2008-06-02 15:48:38

$1,3000 a MONTH for HOA! Gee-Zus, what do you get for that?

Comment by Jean S
2008-06-02 15:52:22

a lobotomy?

Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-06-02 16:12:42

A beating with a Joshua Tree?

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-06-02 16:30:51

Beating?!? What are you, six?

Think an@l-thrusting!

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Comment by ex-nnvmtgbrkr
2008-06-02 17:30:16

Slim is an “exit only” kind of guy. No giving, no recieving. You can hand him a hand tuned JT and point out the desrving bulls-eye, but it’s still a no go with Slim. You’re a good man Slim. Stick to your guns………but just don’t get in my way.

 
Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2008-06-02 17:43:03

For the “exit only” types, I recommend habañero-laced brownies.

Entrance is easy. Exit not so much.

 
 
 
 
Comment by edgewaterjohn
2008-06-02 16:18:15

And for a new building too, where assessments are often kept artifically low to spur sales. Besides, the fees mentioned here are more typical of Chicago than Denver. I realize Denver has come a long way, but no way the local rents could cover those costs because those numbers don’t even work here - where $400 assessments have become common.

 
Comment by Vermontergal
2008-06-02 16:28:05

My thoughts are that fee should include in the nude maid service, with your choice of gender.

Comment by ex-nnvmtgbrkr
2008-06-02 17:32:03

Can you toss in a couple of midgets?

Comment by Joshua Tree
2008-06-02 19:48:31

Don’t bogart that midget, Comrade!

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Comment by rusty
2008-06-03 07:29:07

Hopefully not the ones that steal 40k worth of your wife’s jewelry while your wife is away on vacation!

 
 
Comment by ws
2008-06-02 16:35:53

a free lapdance each month??

 
 
Comment by SMF
2008-06-02 15:53:36

“He said some existing homes are selling for less than $90 a square foot, and it’s hard to imagine builders going much lower with prices.”

Wanna bet? Price does not matter much when you have no people to buy your property.

Just do this:

1. Build 200 homes in a town of 1000 people.
2. Wait and see how many you can sell.

When you overshoot demand, at the end of the day, you ‘may’ have houses that you cannot sell, at any price.

Comment by Groundhogday
2008-06-02 15:59:52

The “hard to imagine” line is getting a bit stale, isn’t it? From my perspective, it was hard to image that home prices would double every four years during the bubble years. I don’t have any trouble imagining that things will now revert to the long term mean.

Comment by Mo Money
2008-06-02 17:08:52

You’re dealing with people with no imagination at all, they couldn’t imagine prices not going up forever either.

 
 
Comment by 01/20/2009 end of an error
2008-06-02 17:11:15

I don’t know about the current builders but the guys who buy their land in default for next to nothing can build for way less than 90sqft.

 
 
Comment by dude
2008-06-02 16:10:42

My tracking shows a current median wishing price of $375K in Cedar City, about 50 miles north of “metro” St. George.

Palmdale 93552, 50 miles north of METRO LOS ANGELES? Median wishing price is $361K.

I think something is rotten in Dixie.

Comment by NoSingleOne
2008-06-02 17:03:39

B-b-b-but you can have a ranch all to yourself and your 16 year old wives! That’s gotta be worth something!

Comment by ex-nnvmtgbrkr
2008-06-02 17:33:48

16 year olds? Dude, that’s over-the-hill in St George!

 
 
 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2008-06-02 16:11:37

From the original post:

“In comparison, other houses on the market often seem overpriced, agents said. ‘A lot of stuff out there isn’t going to sell,’ said agent George Cardieri.”

Well, jeepers creepers, I’d better adjust my peepers. Looks like it’s a Tucson RE agent telling the truth.

Comment by Jimmy from Da Bronx
2008-06-02 18:03:50

Wait! I heard that RE in Scottsdale Az is getting “more reasonable”! Where did I hear this gem of knowledge? In the Bronx! Today! I had to look up to actually make sure I heard this! (On the train)

Don’t worry folks! We’ve got a looooooong way down!

Comment by raven
2008-06-03 11:26:11

Jimmy,

I’m in the heart of “prime” North Scottsdale…still overrated and overpriced…properties just sitting on the market for an average of 180 days..and now that the natural disaster season,(June, July, August,September), rolls in, the market is fried even further.

 
 
 
Comment by Jas Jain
2008-06-02 16:15:18


“‘Everybody thought there would be no end to the demand, and now we have an oversupply…”

Because everybody was lied to by economists who were ‘estimating” demand to be 1.65-1.90M, a lie if one were to look at the actual data. The executives of Hopebuilders were more than happy to spread the lie. See:

07/31/2005 The US Housing Supply-Demand: Countering Lies with the Facts
http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/editorials/jain/2005/0731.html

09/06/2006 American Housing Horror Show: Twice As Many Units Built Than The Demand!
http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/editorials/jain/2006/0906.html

11/13/2006 Facts on Housing Boom-Bust Cycles & Recessions
http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/editorials/jain/2006/1113.html

Jas

Comment by Leighsong
2008-06-02 18:44:14

It’s all about the OVER supply babeyyyyyyyyyy.

Not just housing!

Ya just can’t make this stuff up!

Leigh

 
Comment by Curt
2008-06-02 18:55:17

Are they making more land?

 
 
Comment by Vermontergal
2008-06-02 16:25:47

“Another house, owned by a California investor, Shaw considered overpriced. She put in a bid for about $25,000 less than the asking price, and ‘they didn’t even counter,’ she said. ‘Their house is still up for sale.’”

I wonder how many years we have to be away from peak before people jump at the first offer that comes their way.

Comment by NoSingleOne
2008-06-02 17:00:57

When polls show that 75% of homeowners think their home has not dropped in value, you see non-sensical behavior like this.

As long as the MSM has them drinking the kool-aid about the “subprime crisis” (ignoring the alt-A, option ARMs, and underwater HELOCs), the ‘prime’ people will continue to succumb to their own hubris.

 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-06-02 16:27:54

“Many St. George-area homeowners with subprime loans have either defaulted or are poised to lose their investments. Many of those people find it a difficult subject to discuss. A police officer agonized over breaking the coming news of an imminent foreclosure on his home to his wife and in-laws.”
______________________________________________________________

Hello mother-in-law, hello father-in law
Here I am at Camp I Got Nada
Folding cash is quickly draining
And they say we’ll get some funds if we give them a key-ring

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeDlo7g3bew

Comment by Steadykat
2008-06-03 08:31:22

I put this on the bits bucket before I caught the subject of this thread.

$1.2 to $675,000.00 with a $142,500.00 completion “allowance” in less than a year. Yea, no housing “bubble” here in SoUtah.

Areas east of Washington Fields, The Ledges (word is that Billy Crystal bought there and I have seen him in the area), Stone Cliffs (Dr J lives there) and the other big-buck developments in Washington County (one couldn’t even look at housing in these areas without a million dollars in pocket) are now starting to “re-adjust”

Example (one in Foremaster Ridge out of ten similar unfinished types on the same block):
http://stgeorge.craigslist.org/rfs/704810366.html

This house, like the other nine around it was originally going to be priced at $1.2 Mill.

At least someone moved the porta-potty and overflowing dumpster and discarded realty signs from in front of the house before taking the pics. However, they forgot the visible garbage in the street and on the sidewalk.

One thing to note now that the speculators and equity locusts are gone (49% of buyers in 2006, our price peak, were from out of State, 29% from CA, 19% from NV) is that the median yearly income in St George for your average couple is around $48,000.00.

I don’t see much of a future for anything over the $200,000.00 mark unless we can get some more basketball players or movie stars interested in moving out here.

 
 
Comment by SD_Wangenstein
2008-06-02 16:31:51

“‘We’ve always said we were a home builder and not a land speculator,’ he said. ‘We probably got a little bit off our basics because we were being a little greedy.’”

I love all the qualifiers here… “probably”, “a little bit”, “a little”. Take them away, and what do you have? The truth: ‘We got off our basics because we were being greedy.’

 
Comment by NoSingleOne
2008-06-02 17:07:22

“Short sales are for owners already in ‘bad shape,’ said Red Dalen of ERA Pioneer Properties in Carson City, but the short sale at least ‘leaves them with some dignity.’”

Aren’t these are the same folks who trampled my dignity for being a stupid renter while housing prices were going upwards to infinity?!!

I shall have my moment of schadenfreude, and I shall enjoy every minute. :)

Comment by Vermontergal
2008-06-02 18:04:09

They trample your dignity only if you let’m. If someone actually cares how you’ve acquired your abode rather than how you life your life, they ain’t worth your time.

Unfortunately, to a certain extent, who I just described includes my MIL. She was high maintenance before the bubble(s) came around, to put it mildly. (She got fucco’d in Florida and Colorado.) The only thing the bubble did was highlight the unpleasant side of her personality. All I need to do at this point is wait: most of what she’s dished out in the last decade is coming right back to her in spades.

And I hope to high hades she has enough money left over after this bottom so that she doesn’t end up living with us.

Comment by Leighsong
2008-06-02 18:55:38

I say a silent prayer for you V’gal.

Sincerely,
Leigh

 
 
 
Comment by measton
 
 
Comment by palmetto
2008-06-02 17:21:35

“Meritage analyst Eric Brown said pressure from Wall Street to grow earnings each quarter placed added strain on publicly owned home builders, prompting them to expand operations too quickly into unfamiliar territory.”

Well, there ya go! Read it and weep, Wall Street is the driver of a lot, if not most, of this crap. Not only in the housing market, but Wall Street is causing other companies to have a nervous breakdown, like E-bay, which is majorly screwing the pooch right now and doesn’t know if it is coming or going (going). Eff Wall Street. Much better to deal with a closely held or private corp. In fact two of the companies I admire the most, DHL and Publix, aren’t publicly traded.

 
Comment by Red Baron
2008-06-02 17:22:03

RealtyTrac lists more than 85,000 REOs available in the ten most populous counties of California.

The question is who is going to buy all of them with real wages falling, job losses accelerating, gas at $4.20 per gallon, and mortgage rates rising?

Keep the popcorn popping,

Red Baron

Comment by palmetto
2008-06-02 17:30:23

“The question is who is going to buy all of them with real wages falling, job losses accelerating, gas at $4.20 per gallon, and mortgage rates rising?”

Exactly. THAT, dear sir, is the question I am constantly asking. And why the bottom, when it is reached, is going to be even lower than anyone dreamed, barring some sort of economic miracle. Didn’t Colin Powell say, of Iraq, “You break it, you bought it?” Well, why not just get real honest about the whole mess and just distribute Iraq’s oil to the shareholders (citizens) of the US? We oughta get something for our investment. Yep, I’m getting more cynical by the day.

Comment by Jas Jain
2008-06-02 18:00:22


“also, roughly 30% of households in US is older couples where children moved out. if things get hairy, these “children” can move in and stay at home for some time. you might say this is too big an assumption, but in the 60s there were 3.3 people per household vs 2.6 now.”

Miracle is what The Premature Bottom Callers are expecting. Hasn’t the Fed averted the crisis?! Imagi-nation is running wild.

Jas

Comment by rusty
2008-06-03 07:42:41

Our neighbors did this. Fools did a HELOC after living in the house from new for 20 years and spent it on upgrades and cars.

(of course) Things got rough for the parents, so ALL 3 adult sons moved back home with 3 pregnant wives and 2 children in tow. Well now that all the wives have given birth, you can imagine the mayhem. 8 adults and 2 (or 3) children, and 3 babies in a 5 bedroom house. When you pack rats too tightly they fight, and boy howdy did we hear some wild rows over there.

Let’s just say it lasted less than year, and all sons have relocated their families to other dwellings. Now the parents are moving too (after losing their renting kin) and hoping to rent their house to cover the mortgage. I wish them luck, the house is large but not in great condition.

The good news is that the parking lot that was their driveway and street will now be empty. I used to tell folks trying to find my house to pass the parking lot and turn left.

Sad part, 1) they are broke and admit it 2) they had 8 adults in the house 3) they STILL paid yard and house cleaning services the entire time. Not the most industrious people on the block to say the least. We don’t exactly pity them.

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Comment by ex-nnvmtgbrkr
2008-06-02 17:22:22

“Foreclosed properties usually are not included in appraisals because they are considered under ‘duress’ and not reflective of fair market value, said Bruce Smith, of Equity Valuation Services. However, ‘when those become predominant in the neighborhood, then they become the market,’ Smith said.”

You bet. Besides, all the old comps are by now way invalid. FNMA and the like throw out any sale over 6 months. Gone are the days appraisers can jump back a few months for some “remember when” comps. Although it’s hilarious to look at the MLS because it’s still loaded with “remember when” listings.

I find it shocking that the used-housed salespeople don’t tell the dreamer “remember when” sellers to go F themselves, but today I stumbled upon a local listing that helped me to understand why they don’t tell folks to go F themselves……they’re are just a bunch of idiots that don’t have a friggin’ clue! Check these listing comments out (since we’re on a CO, UT, NV thread anyway, indulge me)…….

“Tenant Occupied at $1425/ month!!! WOW, just WOW! This beauty has value written all over it. Expertly staged and perfectly priced UNDER market value. The home is in great condition with no stone left unturned. Perfect 3 bedroom with 2 seperate living areas as well as a formal dining room and seperate breakfast nook. Over 2000sqft for under 360,000!!!”

Okay, first of all, the “WOW, just WOW!” comment earns this real-tard a two-pronged JT bigtime! That aside, VALUE?! WTF? This idiot is “WOW, just WOW”ing a potential investment property that lists for 359K and celebrating the fact that it’s pulling down $1425 monthly rent. VALUE?!! The way my math works, assuming a 10% down and a 6% rate (generous for a investment property), value is taking about a $800 dollar hit per month, and that’s conservative. “WOW, just WOW!!” indeed!

Comment by Red Baron
2008-06-02 18:37:09

The same nonsense is happening in Marin county, California. Condos listed at $400K are promoted as a “great value” because their prices are down 20% from the peak price of $500K. Yet they rent now for only $19K per year. Do the math–that’s a price/rent ratio of 21.

Only a fool would buy a condo with a price/rent ratio of 21 and think it was a “great value.” Price/rent ratios were about 14 in this area in 2000 before the housing bubble started. The price of a $400K “great value” condo would have to drop to $266K to reach a price/rent ratio of 14–a 34% decline.

Keep the popcorn popping,

Red Baron

 
 
Comment by Michael Viking
2008-06-02 17:39:49

“Terry Jones, vice president of AmTrust Bank, says the housing market is close to its bottom if not there already.”

I’ve seen again and again in life that it takes longer to get out of a jackpot than it does to get into one. We aren’t at the bottom or close to the bottom given how long it took to get into this mess. History will show it took more time to get out of this hole than it did to dig it.

Comment by Jimmy from Da Bronx
2008-06-02 18:16:48

Don’t worry! Barbara Corcoran said after the Superbowl (2006!!! Superbowl XLII !), things would pick up!

http://money.cnn.com/2005/02/02/real_estate/buying_selling/thursday_kickoff/

Hank’s been sayin’ we’re ok!
Hank Paulson says “subprime contained” - March 13, 2007

And so has Ben!
Bernanke Believes Housing Mess Contained - Forbes 5/17/2007

Comment by Professor Bear
2008-06-02 23:04:26

‘“Given the fundamental factors in place that should support the demand for housing, we believe the effect of the troubles in the subprime sector on the broader housing market will likely be limited,” Bernanke said.’

Great historical quotes! Turns out the subprime mess was not, and is still not, contained.

 
 
 
Comment by aladinsane
2008-06-02 17:43:22

Would burying a St. Joseph statue help sell your house in St. George, or is there just too much turf rivalry?

Comment by Joshua Tree
2008-06-02 19:59:02

Hah! Depends upon whether it is upside down or not!

 
Comment by BottomFisher
2008-06-02 22:54:22

St Gorge yourself on real estate U taw….U just taught U taw you taw….I think I just eight the whole thing

 
 
Comment by km4
2008-06-02 18:13:52

Lawrence Lindsey on Housing: It’s Only Going to Get Worse

There are 129 million housing units in the United States, comprising owner-occupied, rented, and vacant units. Of these, 18.5 million are empty. This vacancy rate is 2.5 percentage points higher than it has been at any point in the half century the data have been tracked, translating into at least 3 million too many empty housing units in the country. This number, moreover, is rising. This is the most intractable part of the real estate bubble, for we cannot find a true bottom to home prices until this inventory of empty units starts to clear, and we cannot find a bottom to the mortgage finance market until home prices bottom out.

Comment by Shizo
2008-06-02 22:35:20

And the numbers you have graciously given do not reflect the LIARS that bought 3-4 homes claiming ALL of them are owner OCCUPIED. We are so screwed. I’m loving every minute of it.

The prices locally are still out of touch… WAY overpriced by 50%. Almost no sales and inventory is rising like the floodwater we have been experiencing. I am waiting until people will call me an idiot publicly for purchasing a home before I strike. The kool-aid is still a brewin’ here…

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2008-06-02 23:06:55

It’s Only Going to Get Worse
By Lawrence B. Lindsey
Posted: Monday, June 2, 2008
The Weekly Standard
Publication Date: June 9, 2008

 
 
Comment by Pondering the Mess
2008-06-03 09:21:55

Down here in the nutty land of Maryland, they also thought there would be no end to demand. The crowning moment was the condo complex that was put in a mile or so away right on a busy road next to way too many laundromats and other “interesting” businesses, including an adult video store. The starting price for a condo in this absurd complex? About $270,000… for a 2 bed, 2 bath condo located UNDER the larger, “rich people” condos that started in the $320,000 range?!

I found the Bubble Blog in 2005, and in late 2005 I decided to visit this laughable condo complex since they were almost done by then. I just HAD to see how they were justifying this lunacy. Well, in summary: 1) prices no longer matter 2) “Everyone will want to move here - apparently, “everyone” likes living in a run-down neighborhood near adult video stores and laundromats, and 3) “Buy now or be priced out forever.”

Yeah, sure. I’ve seen several condos go on sale in this complex (which I consider the “Bubble meter” for the area), and none of them sold for more than what was paid. Duh…

But they drank the Kool-aid - they really believed their own nonsense?!

Comment by rusty
2008-06-03 11:27:39

We have the same thing on a lot smaller scale here in Colorado Springs. Sadwiched between two established neighborhoods they found just enough open land to plant about 4 2-story condo buildings “Starting from the low 200’s!” I drive by that acre of land every day and they finally finished construction just recently. Only 2 look occupied, 2 have for rent signs in them and 2 that face the busy street have for sale signs in them. The rest out of 20, totally and absolutely empty.

Why buy a tiny condo in a terrible location for 200+, when for just a bit more and a block over you can have a 3 story house in an established neighborhood and have a 2-3 car garage! Oh yeah, granite countertops!

We joke that they better cut the price in half and hope to rent to college kids, no family in their right mind would move there.

 
 
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